Podcast Summary: "What Had Happened Was"
Season 4, Episode 11 – Things Fall Apart Part 2 (December 20, 2023)
Episode Overview
In this episode, host Open Mike Eagle dives deeper with Ahmir “Questlove” Thompson into the creation of The Roots’ seminal album Things Fall Apart. Building on Part 1, this episode is a journey through the production, songwriting, and personal stories behind several album tracks, including "You Got Me," "Adrenaline," "Step Into The Realm," "Dynamite," "The Next Movement," and "The Spark." Alongside rich technical and creative details, Questlove offers his candid thoughts on working relationships, influences from the likes of D’Angelo, J Dilla, and Erykah Badu, and behind-the-scenes drama involving group members and notable collaborators.
Warning: This is another cliffhanger episode. The discussion will conclude in Part 3.
Key Discussion Points and Insights
1. Synthesizing Influences & The Roots’ Process
- Questlove wrestles with avoiding derivativeness, especially after learning from Dilla, while staying true to the creative spirit of The Roots’ early days.
- He reflects on early inspirations from De La Soul and oddball tracks from the First Priority label.
- “There’s like four bangers on there. The original Survival of the Fittest by MC Lyte…” (03:22)
- Recalls emulating the feeling (not the formula) of unconventional drum tracks.
- “I used to work at Sam Goody’s after school… there was a song that was just like... the weirdest song I ever heard in my life because, like, it was 100% feeling, but it was, like, not traditional.” (03:44)
2. Studio Stories & Album Construction
- Questlove describes initial experiments with Tariq (Black Thought) and the organic evolution of track ideas.
- “So just as a tester, I was there by myself. So I was just like, let me take it back to our childhood...” (06:32)
- On the album’s massive song pool:
- “As with every Roots rap record, 300 to 500 songs are being created…” (09:25)
- Discloses the last-minute switch of album openers and the tactile process of sampling live instruments for song intros (Respond React).
- Touches on the role of sound engineers like Kelo and the shift from beat competition to live show mastery.
- “Kelo’s now traveling on the road with us as our sound guy. Looking at him less as competition, more like he’s now teaching me.” (14:20)
3. Malik B’s Struggles & Group Dynamics
- The episode discusses Malik B’s increasing absence and struggles with addiction (“syrup culture”) around this era, affecting studio life and group cohesion.
- “Malik… would disappear for like a month or two and then just randomly show up at the studio… It’s usually when we’ve wrapped for the night…” (13:58)
- The strain prompts tough decisions to keep him on payroll for his safety, even as he becomes less present.
4. Cross-Pollination w/ D’Angelo and Erykah Badu
- Fascinating stories about Roots’ musical exchanges with D’Angelo (“The Spark” comes from a “Voodoo” outtake; “Player Player” was intended for Space Jam).
- “Our first joint together was… a Men In Black soundtrack remix with Erykah...” (17:17)
- On Erykah Badu: Songs originally intended for her (“Table of Contents” variants) end up as Root tracks, showing the overlap between Soulquarians’ creative circles.
5. Regional & Studio Sound Differences
- Questlove explains the subtle technical differences between recording at Sigma Sound in Philly versus Battery Studios in New York.
- “At Sigma, because they have so much history there, I can play a record and be like, this is how I want my drums to sound…” (27:11)
- Decisive about drum sounds, snare replacements, and even choosing intros based on “dustiness” and textural cohesion.
6. Jam Sessions as Creative Ground Zero
- Regular jam sessions at Wetlands, Open Mike’s home, and Five Spot serve as springboards for new material.
- “So those jam sessions from Wetlands and from the Tuesday night Five Spot… would start resulting in, yo, remember that… or like, remember exactly at 10:16, that part Scott [Storch] played.” (44:37)
7. "Adrenaline" and Beanie Sigel’s Arrival
- The legendary and-them rhyme session by Beanie Sigel, originally much longer, led him to be featured on “Adrenaline,” then signed by Roc-A-Fella almost immediately after.
- “He had like damn near a 15 minute… a 20 minute run. It was instantly like, yo, that boy, get him on the record.” (47:12)
- Decision to let Beanie close the track came at the mastering stage, cementing the guest’s impact.
8. Technical Obsession: "Dynamite" & The ‘Earl's blanket’ Saga
- Questlove’s perfectionism in matching Dilla’s drum sound with live performance culminates in a discovery with an old recording engineer: covering the drum kit with a blanket (“Earl’s blanket”) to mimic the deadened sound of classic Philly soul records.
- “He puts it over the drum set. He’s like, all right, play it now… Instantly, we couldn’t tell the difference.” (36:33)
- “I probably spent at least 300 hours… like five to seven hours a day until it’s perfect.” (33:49)
9. The Jill Scott/Erykah Badu "You Got Me" Switch
- The episode recounts how Jill Scott’s original demo was replaced (for label reasons) by Erykah Badu’s vocals, despite general consensus Jill delivered the definitive performance.
- “Jill’s version was definitely the better version. But we had to make a business decision… Erykah was red hot right now.” (60:57)
- The call sparks tension; even Erykah acknowledges Jill’s superiority on the track.
- "Even Erykah was like, y’all crazy. Homegirl is way better than me at this thing.” (59:40)
- “You Got Me” is traced from its origins in Philly slam poetry scenes through Scott Storch and Jill Scott’s first demo to the finished song.
10. Studio Dramas & Home Base Shift
- Malik B’s erratic behavior escalates to violence, leading Sigma Studio’s owner to ban him, prompting The Roots to split recordings between Sigma (for music) and Larry Gold’s studio (for vocals), setting up a new home for years to come.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On avoiding Dilla mimicry:
“I don’t want to be a derivative of what Dilla has taught me. I don’t want to be derivative of… my North Star is how sloppy ‘Dreaming Eyes of Mine’ sounds by D’Angelo…”
— Questlove (02:54) -
On Beanie Sigel’s “Adrenaline” audition:
“He had like damn near a 15 minute… It was like watching a thing of beauty, man. Just… the amount of text… memorizing… it was a 20-minute run.”
— Questlove (47:13) -
On recreating Dilla’s drum sound:
“He puts [the blanket] over the drum set. He’s like, all right, play it now… It sounded whack. But dude, instantly, we couldn’t tell the difference… Those are my drums!”
— Questlove (36:33) -
On Jill Scott’s replacement on “You Got Me”:
“Jill's version was definitely the better version. But we had to make a business decision… even Erykah was like, y'all crazy. Homegirl is way better than me at this thing.”
— Questlove (60:57, 59:40) -
On Malik B’s struggles impacting the group:
“It's like, we gotta keep him alive. We decided collectively to still keep him on payroll. Just so that, you know, if you're broke and in this state, you make bad decisions, right?”
— Questlove (38:56)
Timestamps for Key Segments
- Intro & Theme Setting – 00:08–02:55
- Synthesizing Old Influences – 02:54–06:57
- Move Bombing in Philly; Childhood Stories – 07:09
- Studio Process, Song Overruns – 09:25–12:31
- Role of Soundmen & Learning Live Sound – 12:41–14:20
- Malik B’s Decline & Group Dynamics – 13:58–18:38
- D’Angelo, Erykah Badu Sessions – 17:17–24:06
- Studio Differences (Sigma vs. Battery) – 26:41–27:23
- Jam Sessions and the Rise of Beanie Sigel – 44:37–47:13
- Adrenaline & Guest Verse Politics – 47:22–49:57
- Dynamite’s Drum Sound Obsession – 30:49–36:33
- Malik B’s Ban and Studio Shift – 41:36–44:11
- You Got Me: Jill, Erykah, and the Industry – 51:48–60:57
Episode Tone & Closing Notes
The conversation is candid, technical, often humorous, and at times wistful. Questlove is both methodical and emotionally transparent, alternating between deep musical analysis and stories of personal and collective struggle. Open Mike Eagle guides the discussion with focused curiosity and a keen ear for The Roots’ creative chemistry.
“I told you it was a cliffhanger. If you didn’t believe me, you should.” (61:33, Open Mike Eagle)
Stay tuned for Part 3.