Things Fall Apart Part 2

Summary

Podcast Summary: "What Had Happened Was"

Season 4, Episode 11 – Things Fall Apart Part 2 (December 20, 2023)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, host Open Mike Eagle dives deeper with Ahmir “Questlove” Thompson into the creation of The Roots’ seminal album Things Fall Apart. Building on Part 1, this episode is a journey through the production, songwriting, and personal stories behind several album tracks, including "You Got Me," "Adrenaline," "Step Into The Realm," "Dynamite," "The Next Movement," and "The Spark." Alongside rich technical and creative details, Questlove offers his candid thoughts on working relationships, influences from the likes of D’Angelo, J Dilla, and Erykah Badu, and behind-the-scenes drama involving group members and notable collaborators.

Warning: This is another cliffhanger episode. The discussion will conclude in Part 3.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Synthesizing Influences & The Roots’ Process

• Questlove wrestles with avoiding derivativeness, especially after learning from Dilla, while staying true to the creative spirit of The Roots’ early days.
• He reflects on early inspirations from De La Soul and oddball tracks from the First Priority label.
  • “There’s like four bangers on there. The original Survival of the Fittest by MC Lyte…” (03:22)
• Recalls emulating the feeling (not the formula) of unconventional drum tracks.
  • “I used to work at Sam Goody’s after school… there was a song that was just like... the weirdest song I ever heard in my life because, like, it was 100% feeling, but it was, like, not traditional.” (03:44)

2. Studio Stories & Album Construction

• Questlove describes initial experiments with Tariq (Black Thought) and the organic evolution of track ideas.
  • “So just as a tester, I was there by myself. So I was just like, let me take it back to our childhood...” (06:32)
• On the album’s massive song pool:
  • “As with every Roots rap record, 300 to 500 songs are being created…” (09:25)
• Discloses the last-minute switch of album openers and the tactile process of sampling live instruments for song intros (Respond React).
• Touches on the role of sound engineers like Kelo and the shift from beat competition to live show mastery.
  • “Kelo’s now traveling on the road with us as our sound guy. Looking at him less as competition, more like he’s now teaching me.” (14:20)

3. Malik B’s Struggles & Group Dynamics

• The episode discusses Malik B’s increasing absence and struggles with addiction (“syrup culture”) around this era, affecting studio life and group cohesion.
  • “Malik… would disappear for like a month or two and then just randomly show up at the studio… It’s usually when we’ve wrapped for the night…” (13:58)
• The strain prompts tough decisions to keep him on payroll for his safety, even as he becomes less present.

4. Cross-Pollination w/ D’Angelo and Erykah Badu

• Fascinating stories about Roots’ musical exchanges with D’Angelo (“The Spark” comes from a “Voodoo” outtake; “Player Player” was intended for Space Jam).
  • “Our first joint together was… a Men In Black soundtrack remix with Erykah...” (17:17)
• On Erykah Badu: Songs originally intended for her (“Table of Contents” variants) end up as Root tracks, showing the overlap between Soulquarians’ creative circles.

5. Regional & Studio Sound Differences

• Questlove explains the subtle technical differences between recording at Sigma Sound in Philly versus Battery Studios in New York.
  • “At Sigma, because they have so much history there, I can play a record and be like, this is how I want my drums to sound…” (27:11)
• Decisive about drum sounds, snare replacements, and even choosing intros based on “dustiness” and textural cohesion.

6. Jam Sessions as Creative Ground Zero

• Regular jam sessions at Wetlands, Open Mike’s home, and Five Spot serve as springboards for new material.
  • “So those jam sessions from Wetlands and from the Tuesday night Five Spot… would start resulting in, yo, remember that… or like, remember exactly at 10:16, that part Scott [Storch] played.” (44:37)

7. "Adrenaline" and Beanie Sigel’s Arrival

• The legendary and-them rhyme session by Beanie Sigel, originally much longer, led him to be featured on “Adrenaline,” then signed by Roc-A-Fella almost immediately after.
  • “He had like damn near a 15 minute… a 20 minute run. It was instantly like, yo, that boy, get him on the record.” (47:12)
  • Decision to let Beanie close the track came at the mastering stage, cementing the guest’s impact.

8. Technical Obsession: "Dynamite" & The ‘Earl's blanket’ Saga

• Questlove’s perfectionism in matching Dilla’s drum sound with live performance culminates in a discovery with an old recording engineer: covering the drum kit with a blanket (“Earl’s blanket”) to mimic the deadened sound of classic Philly soul records.
  • “He puts it over the drum set. He’s like, all right, play it now… Instantly, we couldn’t tell the difference.” (36:33)
• “I probably spent at least 300 hours… like five to seven hours a day until it’s perfect.” (33:49)

9. The Jill Scott/Erykah Badu "You Got Me" Switch

• The episode recounts how Jill Scott’s original demo was replaced (for label reasons) by Erykah Badu’s vocals, despite general consensus Jill delivered the definitive performance.
  • “Jill’s version was definitely the better version. But we had to make a business decision… Erykah was red hot right now.” (60:57)
• The call sparks tension; even Erykah acknowledges Jill’s superiority on the track.
  • "Even Erykah was like, y’all crazy. Homegirl is way better than me at this thing.” (59:40)
• “You Got Me” is traced from its origins in Philly slam poetry scenes through Scott Storch and Jill Scott’s first demo to the finished song.

10. Studio Dramas & Home Base Shift

• Malik B’s erratic behavior escalates to violence, leading Sigma Studio’s owner to ban him, prompting The Roots to split recordings between Sigma (for music) and Larry Gold’s studio (for vocals), setting up a new home for years to come.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On avoiding Dilla mimicry:
  “I don’t want to be a derivative of what Dilla has taught me. I don’t want to be derivative of… my North Star is how sloppy ‘Dreaming Eyes of Mine’ sounds by D’Angelo…”
  — Questlove (02:54)

• On Beanie Sigel’s “Adrenaline” audition:
  “He had like damn near a 15 minute… It was like watching a thing of beauty, man. Just… the amount of text… memorizing… it was a 20-minute run.”
  — Questlove (47:13)

• On recreating Dilla’s drum sound:
  “He puts [the blanket] over the drum set. He’s like, all right, play it now… It sounded whack. But dude, instantly, we couldn’t tell the difference… Those are my drums!”
  — Questlove (36:33)

• On Jill Scott’s replacement on “You Got Me”:
  “Jill's version was definitely the better version. But we had to make a business decision… even Erykah was like, y'all crazy. Homegirl is way better than me at this thing.”
  — Questlove (60:57, 59:40)

• On Malik B’s struggles impacting the group:
  “It's like, we gotta keep him alive. We decided collectively to still keep him on payroll. Just so that, you know, if you're broke and in this state, you make bad decisions, right?”
  — Questlove (38:56)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Theme Setting – 00:08–02:55
• Synthesizing Old Influences – 02:54–06:57
• Move Bombing in Philly; Childhood Stories – 07:09
• Studio Process, Song Overruns – 09:25–12:31
• Role of Soundmen & Learning Live Sound – 12:41–14:20
• Malik B’s Decline & Group Dynamics – 13:58–18:38
• D’Angelo, Erykah Badu Sessions – 17:17–24:06
• Studio Differences (Sigma vs. Battery) – 26:41–27:23
• Jam Sessions and the Rise of Beanie Sigel – 44:37–47:13
• Adrenaline & Guest Verse Politics – 47:22–49:57
• Dynamite’s Drum Sound Obsession – 30:49–36:33
• Malik B’s Ban and Studio Shift – 41:36–44:11
• You Got Me: Jill, Erykah, and the Industry – 51:48–60:57

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Episode Tone & Closing Notes

The conversation is candid, technical, often humorous, and at times wistful. Questlove is both methodical and emotionally transparent, alternating between deep musical analysis and stories of personal and collective struggle. Open Mike Eagle guides the discussion with focused curiosity and a keen ear for The Roots’ creative chemistry.

“I told you it was a cliffhanger. If you didn’t believe me, you should.” (61:33, Open Mike Eagle)
Stay tuned for Part 3.

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Transcript

[A]

What up y'? All? My name is Open Mike Eagle. This is what it happened was season four, episode 11, Things Fall Apart part two. We are into the album now. Starting with the intro of the album table of contents, we start to get insight into the creation of of the songs on the album. Some of them be warned. This is another cliffhanger episode. So we're gonna do a part three of Things Fall Apart in the next episode Be warned. But in this episode we get the stories behind you. Got me Adrenaline, Step into the realm, Dynamite, the next movement, the spark and more. You even get stuff about folks outside of the roots media bubble like d' Angelo and Erykah Badu. We only got a couple of episodes left after this. Can you believe it? Well, you better believe it cause it's the truth. Like a great man once said, I teach the truth to the youth. I say, hey youth, here's the truth. Better start counting down episodes. I'm not on tour no more so you ain't got to worry about hearing that spiel. But you can support the pod by reviewing it and giving it a 10,000 star rating on your preferred consumption platform. This is part of the Stony Island Audio Podcast Network, the home for hip hop podcasts you can actually listen to, including the dad by Rat Pod creativity and captivity super duty tough work with Blueprint Analogic and more with that. Let's go. Season 4, Episode 11 Things Fall Apart Part 2 Halfway through the podcast Philadelphia pick up a flashlight dick as a maglite on the last album ripping the bagpipes and this is the half life the grind like the lip of a half pipe and sharp like the tip of stalactites they wasn't clones though they punching your nose bone the roots roll tight like it's turbo in ozone no toes to price like them all of the roads though blind the devil with black and gold shine travel through the you would not verse with the comm sense the bombshell give us five stars for the content Push up delighted to contend with the darkness is what it happened was open mike Eagle and quest love for the Illadelph stories. This is the plug to have the roots got it all out the mud. This is your host, Open Mike Eagle. Philadelphia Half Life we keep changing the theme. It's like the anime something traumatic happens.

[B]

So when I get in the studio I don't know what to do. Like I don't want to be derivative of what Dill has taught me I don't want to be derivative of like cause to me still drumming wise my North Star is how sloppy Dreaming Eyes of Mine sounds by d'. Angelo. And that just dirty ass kick drum, open kick drum. Like, sounds like a four year old's playing. Like, I'm trying not to be too derivative. So I thought about what Rich said. He's like, yo, we. Everything you learned in the last 10.

[A]

Years, you gotta be synthesize it, refine it, right?

[B]

So I'm thinking about. Okay, let me go back to the first two years when Tariq and I first met 87 to like 89, when we're discovering three feet high and Rising and De La Soul is dead. And you know, just like hip hop in general, where we're playing songs over the phone and all that stuff. And so there's. I used to work at Sam Goody's Music Land Outlet record store after school and there was a compilation called First Priority, Basement Flavor Milk D&MC Light's dad, Nat Robinson owned this label and they put out a compilation. There's like four bangers on there. The original Survival of the Fittest by MC Light.

[C]

Survival of the fittest overcomes the weird.

[B]

Thing.

[C]

Survival of the fittest overcomes the weird thing Never does one know the.

[D]

Force that is in them Till some.

[B]

Puss jumps up and offends them Then.

[D]

I have to subtract minus and eliminate.

[B]

Those that try to front positive case impulsive 123 with Mc Bashar positive somewhat.

[C]

Of a speaker to say that I've gotten this way because of me dropping now pronouns adverts on the microphone I have microphone etiquette intricated, well pronunciated Every.

[B]

Word heard is appreciated so the alliance was another group on first priority. It was like audio 2 Mc Lyte and the Alliance King of Chill, I believe is DJ Premier's engineer right now. But back then he was like producer member of the Alliance. And there was a song that was just like. It was the weirdest song I ever heard in my life because, like, it was 100% feeling, but it was like not a traditional. It wouldn't be a song where I'm like, yo, we gotta rhyme over this shit. But you know that, you know, like songs that you hate that you later become obsessed with.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or songs that are really, really unorthodox. Just like stick to you.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

We are the Alliance.

[B]

Like that drum beat. Yeah, it's such a weird drum beat. And like.

[A]

And that 808 is just punching through.

[B]

Like crazy music by the force that.

[C]

Is truly commanding hip hop. The top is where we aim. You know, the voice for yo, what's the name? Say Swift. For the musical fitness and be a witness. Swiftness, skill, the man to kill.

[B]

We were obsessed with kibbles and bits.

[C]

The passion is made but not stolen. Listen to the baseman. Go get that same brewery.

[B]

Listen to the guitar. Give that. So just as a tester, I was there by myself. So I was just like, let me take it back to our childhood.

[A]

Oh, man, I totally hear that now.

[B]

Back to 5212 O' Sage Avenue. Was just me and Tariq in my bedroom trying to mess with that Casio SK1. And so they use on Osage, like Move Family street, eight blocks away.

[A]

Get the out.

[B]

I got dumped by my girlfriend on May 13, 1985. Literally, like, it looked up and literally, like, you saw the bomb in the house. Yes, like we were on.

[E]

I've just been advised that we have new videotape of the episode that apparently ended, we think ended, the MOVE situation tonight. The dropping of an incendiary device. And let's take a careful look at this. 5:27pm State Police helicopter drops it. There is the explosion. As you can see, a very dramatic explosion that occurs 30 seconds and really rips into the move compound. There you see the bunker, which soon will go up in flames. And that was the explosion close up. Now, if there's anybody there standing there, it's obvious they couldn't survive that explosion.

[B]

So basically, I just wanted to do an experiment. I didn't think Tariq was going to, you know. Cause I'm still like, triggered from the last album.

[A]

Experience.

[B]

Yeah, right. So a trick that a producer named Anthony Tidd, he's like one of the cats, one of the musician cats that we met in London. And he's still with us to this day. Like, he came from London with us when we came back home. So he taught me a trick that Tariq has such a melodic delivery that whenever he. Anthony Tit, used to go back and do on keyboard, like, we would do like these obscure, like, jazz records, imports, like Steve Williamson, Galliano, like all of these, like, acid jazz remixes or whatever. And that's a trick that Anthony Tidd taught me. Like shadow. When Tariq does something melodically dope, like shadow him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So.

[A]

So like on the keys or something, like, do a. Do a riff.

[B]

So it was me warming up, but Tariq's like, I got something. And I was like, oh, okay. So the words are flowing and this is very unorthodox. So I actually felt safe to come outside. Like, it wasn't a thing. Where it's like, I gotta present the most banginous thing of all time or whatever. So I'll say that we started with table content, which I instantly knew I wanted to be the album intro. And then, as I told you earlier, like, my ratio to Things Fall Apart was more closer to, like, 65, 35. So by this point, and yes, as with every roots rap record, 300 to 500 songs are being created. Here's something I forgot to add in the last episode. So to give you an example, the original Respond React was like a beat so dirty that, like, this was actually the first song recorded for Ill Adult Half Life.

[A]

Who was the producer on this one? The original beat maker, Kilo Kilo.

[B]

Okay, this was the original Respond React.

[A]

Like you hear some elements that went on, but it's completely different.

[B]

Right? Wait one second. So even though I like the dirty texture of this, I was still, like, fighting for the. Do you want more tug of war thing? So at the last minute, I forgot. I forgot to mention that, yes. Even though the Hypnotic was the. The last song, a day before mastering, I was like, nah, we ain't opening a record with this. So then I ran back to Sigma Studio and I put the thing up, and I did this on my own accord. There was a Hart player. It wasn't Deidre Murray, I forget what her name was, but a Hart player in the Philadelphia Orchestra that happened to be in the building. And we just told. I told her, do a whole bunch of arpeggios. Just go. You know, arpeggios or whatever. And I just grabbed like, 13 seconds of it and put it inside the SB. And so I wound up redoing Respond React on my own. And it was good enough for them to be like, oh, this is actually better.

[F]

Setting it for south side, pushing this.

[B]

Up north for Miladelphia reps to fly points across the map. Bring it back to Respaw. React to.

[F]

Bring it back to react to this attractive assassin blasting the devil Trespassing master getting cash in an orderly fashion.

[B]

Message to the fake flashing.

[F]

Slow up before you get dro.

[B]

Kilo was salty, of course. You know, I mean, he still got paid, but, you know, I. I was like, nope, I'm getting the first word on every Roots record, so get out of here.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

But the dustiness of that opening, I appreciated and figured, okay, next album, I'm gonna open it up with something dusty sounding.

[A]

Are y' all still working with Kelo and Chaos for things to fall apart?

[B]

So Keelo is now morphed and still is one of the best live soundmen ever. I will say that my manager, Richard Nichols, in addition to being a conceptualizer and a manager, was really just like he was. He was the fifth Beatle. He was Billy Preston. And he was, we learned in, in Brighton, England at a Roy Air show, that loud sound is how we're going to win the audience. Not to mention also touring with the Beastie Boys.

[C]

Everybody rapping like it's a commercial. They act like life is some up commercial. So this is what I got to say to you all. And you were never foolish. Now I'd like to pass a bike.

[B]

We always go to Soundboard and see what they're doing. And oh, they're doing Echoes and all the psychedelic shit. You know, most rap shows just like Soundman, turn my shit up.

[A]

Right?

[B]

You know, soundman's just trying to come home unscathed from the night from the wrath of whatever rapper, like, sound man, turn my shit up.

[A]

So that didn't even come to soundcheck, probably, right?

[B]

Exactly. And if it ain't loud enough tell.

[F]

The soundman to turn that shit up.

[B]

Up, up, up, up, up. So Kilo's now traveling on the road with us as our sound guy. And so, you know, I'm looking at him less as competition, more like he's now teaching me. So during this Ill Adelf Half Life tour, I. I'm now the. I'm mastering, making beats and all that stuff. So the guys are there, but we also are now four years into it. So we now have a complete understanding of what works for us live and our sound wise. So it's not just like four dudes fighting like hell to get their beat placed right. Yeah. So we all know that sonically what we gotta go for. So it's enough to at least make me drop my guard and go do the lion's share of my work with d' Angelo and not have to worry about me coming home to an album that I don't know. So as I mentioned in the last episode, I'm kind of touching on it, but you know, with Malik's state of mind, with his, with his dependency and all those things, it's subsequently getting worse and worse year by year. So it's, you know, in Philadelphia, it's like the whole syrup culture, like right now, I didn't even know that we're the third highest opioids leader in the nation. But you know, back in 97, 98, 99, like, you know, Jefferson Street, J Street, Pancakes and syrup. Like, you know, I Didn't know there was a culture where it's like, oh, they're not doing the drugs that I see me zadies. It's not like cocaine and heroin. It's like they're doing prescription cough syrup and like that's how they're doing this shit. And so, you know, typical Malik is, you know, he would disappear for like a month or two and then just randomly show up at the studio like 1am and it's usually when we've wrapped for the night and maybe the assistant engineer is about to wipe up and Malik's like, put something up. And it's sort of like, you know, the assistant engineers, like doesn't have the heart to be like, yo, we're wrapped for the night and we've already been up for 16 hours, I gotta go home. So, you know, he's just putting up anything. So now this starts the stage where Malik will just randomly start picking roulette style reels, you know what I mean? So he actually grabs. There was a Voodoo song that I really, really, really dug in my mind. I thought that this was gonna open up Voodoo. D' Angelo and I actually like. Our first joint together was a song on the Men in Black soundtrack. We did a remix of the the Nautic with Erica.

[C]

This beautiful blend.

[F]

I knew her through a mutual friend. She was a work of art, part of my heart from back then. A brown skinned singer with a knack for acting. Alana's whole attraction just fractionally based on surface. I got into her mental on purpose and with alertness as I flirt with her.

[B]

So we're recording that at the hit factory in New York City and we were trying to inch towards Princes the Ballad of Dorothy Parker without getting napped for publishing. Like, I mean it was a cool album cut, but it didn't wind up being the moment.

[A]

You talking about the hypnotic or the Nautic?

[B]

The Nautic.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The Men in Black version. And so we're going to straight up do the Ballad of Dorothy Parker. But we knew that Prince is on his shit with publishing, so we kind of remixed it and so. But I still wanted to do a joint that was like a rim shot thing. And that's another thing. I didn't realize that 98% of voodoo was gonna be rim shot. Figure with my two shots.

[F]

Control you with my child I don't need to tell you that you know how baby you do oh a lot.

[B]

Of things.

[D]

You can't disguise.

[B]

So in my mind I was just like, well, let me fish for a good Rim Shot song for d' Angelo to open up his record with. So we. We came with a song that was dope, but then we had another presentation or another opportunity with Space Jams. And here comes Player Player. So Player, Player was initially for Space Jams. If you're wondering, like, the whole basketball references, like, My game is tight. He was literally writing it for a basketball movie. But it was so dope. It was like, I'm keeping this shit for myself. Shoot your back shot. So once he kept that for himself, he was like, this is gonna be our opener. And I was like, well, wait, what about this other dope thing we did? And he's like, no, I don't want it. I was like, can I have it? I don't care. So I took that reel to Philadelphia, not knowing what to do with it. And that reel, that song was initially. That song was the Spark, which was Malik's solo joint.

[F]

Yo, the feet that I walk with the heads that I hear with the eyes that I see with yo, the mouth that I talk with the terror that I saw with now it's to time of Spark Look, God, I walk around a little anti already y' all MCs coming to my face but my aim steady and militant is still the most strategic plan.

[B]

So the thing is, is that the initial version of that song was also based on a Prince composition, the Stick, by the time. And it was mind blowing. It was like mind blowing Funko. I was trying to force it through, but my manager was like, nope. After the Q Tip Ital situation with the Japanese artist, like, cutting us a break, it's like, next time we won't be that lucky. We're clearing everything. And back then, it was just like Prince was a kind of a red light. So even though Malik had already rhymed on. Which, again, I'm like, why are you rhyming on stuff like, this wasn't meant for you? But he did it already, so it's like, I guess it's on the record and I'll fix the music later. I'll say that the spark was. Even though that's what Malik first chose, I didn't get to change in the music until, like, the end of the record. So Malik also wound up choosing one of the songs that was intended for Erykah Badu for his version of Table of Contents, which, if I'm really, really honest, I'm extremely, extremely. I was extremely careful to make sure that even though I was going to be influenced by Dilla, to not sound too much like him. Like, I didn't want to be the recipient of, like, Shark or no album. Like that sort of thing. Like off NASA's album, right? Exactly. So I didn't want that bit off.

[C]

A Nas, you know what I'm saying?

[B]

So in my mind, when I did this Beat. Badoo, in my mind, I was just trying to figure out how he got that. That bass tone on his thing. You gotta practice before you master something. And so I just did it knowing that this is gonna be one of the 500 songs that won't make it. So he picks that one. So the thing is, is that the drums are also very slum, like. And I was like, nah, man, nuh.

[A]

You don't wanna grab a bridge carpet on that one.

[B]

Right. So I went and got my trusty primo snare. It was like, let me do a deep snare thing so I can sort of hide the scopes of, you know, getting Ghostface to my album, you know, that sort of thing. I don't want niggas sound like me on no album. You know what I'm saying? For real.

[F]

Cause I'm approaching nigga man.

[B]

For real, man.

[C]

I don't want nobody sound like me, man.

[B]

For real, son. You know, I had to keep it there. There was a third part of table of contents. Table of contents that I had to take off for time. Cause again, CDs can only hold 70, 79 minutes worth of music. Now, had we just picked one tangible album to release, Remember that we did this special five album cover thing.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And because we had to use five different factories, only one factor, get them.

[A]

All done at once. Okay.

[B]

Only one factory could give you 79 minutes worth of music. Everyone else was just 72 minutes worth of music. Thus, we had to drop like nine minutes worth of music off the record. So this after Malik's.

[A]

Gum.

[B]

For hire. For hire. That goes right into the next movement. There was gonna be a third table content, which, you know, would have been this. Which I'm kind of glad this didn't make it. Cause again, very derivative.

[A]

Would somebody have been rapping on this too?

[B]

So we actually wound up. We actually wound up using it. I believe table of contents made it to. We released an ep, I think, called the. The Legendary, which I believe had. Had that version, like Tariq's vocals on it.

[F]

That's five talk. Hustle is the way we alter ego 555 people collide beneath a counter Locks lie like a thousand shots Black Thought SP Cyclops.

[B]

So that was that. The next movement, I believe, was the second Quarter song. We did that at Battery Studios in New York. However, I didn't like recording at Battery as much. So the difference between. And the reason why I have to go through this setup is the difference between tracking at Sigma Sound, where I know the sound well, for tracking at least, and tracking at Battery was kind of the. Okay, so you'll see the difference. So this is tracking the next movement at Battery Studio.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. Something not quite the same, right?

[B]

It's not quite popular, is it?

[A]

Cause of the. Is it like the drum rooms or something? Like.

[B]

Yeah, it's just, you know, the mics and everything. Like, at least at Sigma, because they have so much history there, I can play a record and be like, this is how I want my drums to sound. They instantly know this compression, this ribbon Royer microphone.

[A]

Got you.

[B]

And let me take this out, the kick or whatever. So thus, very, very subtle drum difference. But you could tell the difference between.

[A]

The room cleaner and tighter, right?

[B]

And so, you know, we knocked off that there. You know, Kilo had a piano idea. Step into the realm.

[F]

Step into the realm. You're bound to get caught from this worldly life.

[B]

I didn't know where to play. Step into the Room. And so I think in the final mix, it's like, this needs something. Like, I don't want this to be the second song. Even though Step into the Room was technically the fourth song when I built Roots Records, the first song, to me is like the preview.

[A]

When you say first song, you mean first in the sequence or the first song that y' all make?

[B]

No, in the sequence.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So for me, the Things Fall Apart intro, the whole Mo Better Goose thing. That's sort of like a preview. But we don't even come to see our own man.

[A]

Right?

[C]

Listen, you know, if we had to.

[B]

Fend upon black people to eat, we would starve to death. You've been out there, you're on the bandstand. You look out into the audience. What do you see? Japanese. And then I considered table contents, also kind of like a preview. And then the movie starts at the next movement. In my mind, you know, it's like, you got to make some previews and then warm up trailers, right? You make trailers first, and then you start to move. And so in my mind, I was like, ah, it's. Step in the Realm is cool, but I need something. And I thought at last minute, when we were mixing, I said, yo, I want to do a bunch of false fades and make people think, yes, yes, yes. Right, yes.

[F]

Approach me with caution. Cause I Spot losses and I'm ill Attempted to rap Bossing, marching, leaving niggas stiff like I'm starching Departing Hollywood Samples of jokes just like Martin I'm the type of nigga that belongs in a ward With a mic in the cord don't hold your.

[B]

That was a last minute, 11th hour decision. Like, you know, the song was traditionally already recorded. And then right before he finalized the mix, I said, let me try something. Put all the music except for their voices on one thing, and I'm gonna do these false fades. And then that sort of, like, it woke it up a little bit and gave it its own personality and then live.

[A]

It's crazy when y' all do that, right?

[F]

Approach me with caution I smoke losses immilitat the rap often. If it's a point of life When I can't afford I have to get shite stick feeling forward now back to.

[C]

The topical blue ride Philosopher wish.

[B]

I will say that also, one of the earliest songs done was Dynamite.

[A]

So this starts with a deal of beat, right? That's on a track, and y' all remake it.

[B]

Okay? So the deal is that the original Dynamite is.

[A]

Very different drum.

[B]

Yeah. Extremely different.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now, here's the thing. How do you micromanage? It's one thing to micromanage your third album, which you're trying to fight for space on that thing, but then it's like, this guy's clearly my idol within the first month of meeting him, and he's very, very, very particular and careful. Like, you can't fan worship in front of him. So it's almost like I had to approach this, like, Sonny, the. The Cuckoo of Cocoa Pebbles commercial. Like, hide my enthusiasm, right? Like. Like, it's, you know. No, because even, like, in the early days of okay, Player. When I'm writing these, like, 42 billion, like, long paragraphs of how much of a genius he is, like, hashtag awkward. You know what I mean? Like, you gotta be careful to not get kicked out the club. Like, I know this guy's the future. I know this guy is God. I know he is. I know he's Ellington and Hendrix and Frank Zappa and Miles Davis. I know he is that. He doesn't know he's that. And I think. I think if I remind him he is, that I might get kicked out. So I just gotta. Just silently like, holy fucking shit. Everything this guy does is, like gold. So now it's like we have this beat for Dynamite, and I'm like, well, will this stand out like a sore thumb? Like, okay, now we take a commercial break for a regular rap song or whatever.

[A]

So the original intention was to use it kind of as submitted and just.

[B]

Well, we didn't know what the intention was. The intention was like we. We was going to get Adila right back then, anything. It was like, oh my God, this mind blowing shit. And then it was like, this is also kind of normal. Like I, you know. Cause he's. He's feeding me, like, fall in love and all this stuff.

[A]

Like, come on, man.

[B]

We're getting daily takes of it.

[A]

Oh, fall in love is why. I'm pretty sure that's why them girls stole that album.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Fall in love. Yeah.

[B]

So it's like, you know, I was like, all right. It's rather normal. It's jazz guitar, I guess it could fit on the record. And am I going to. Is my ego about to ruin a Dilla beat? Because I want to attempt these drums and whatnot. But I don't know, it was itching. I was like, can I mask these drums? So I'll say that Dynamite, Dynamite was probably the longest that I. I've taken to master something so goddamn simple. Because it's not like it's dynamite. Asterisk, ladies and gentlemen. The amount of painstaking, like blood, sweat and tears that I had to reach for. Perfection for these normal ass drums. Like take after take after take after take and mic after mic after mic after mic. And you know, I mean, hours. I'm talking about, like, I probably spent at least 300 hours. What? I mean, like five to seven hours a day until it's perfect. We finally, at the fourth month of just like, it's not sounding quite. And the thing is, is that if I don't match him, the guys are like, yo, we're going with him. Like, leave his shit alone. So the panic's on and I swear to God, Joe Tarcia, the owner of Sigma Studios, the man who basically architects the sound of Philadelphia. Gamble and Huff's engineer. Okay, he's mainly upstairs in the office. Really haven't seen him that much for, you know, he has stories about, yeah, your dad used to record here and da da da da. But for the most part, we never like, talk shopper, that sort of thing. And he just happened to come in the studio and, you know, my engineer, David Ivory was basically saying, like, we're trying to figure this out. We can't figure out the right frequencies to match this. And he's like, all right, play the original. He hears it, he's like, oh, I got it. And I Was like, huh? And he goes, up comes back. He's like, you know what this is? And I was like, what is this? He's like, this is Earl's blanket. And I was like, well, part of me is sort of like, trying to pretend I know who Earl is or whatever. And it's Earl Young. Basically. If we're looking for a paradigm shift for where we could say disco culture started, most historians will say the first time that we heard the Boots and Cats beat the four. And the four is on the Love I Lost by Harold Melvin, the Blue Notes.

[F]

The love I lost.

[B]

Was a sweet love love the love I love. So Earl Young is the sound of MFSB, whatever, Teddy Pendergrass, the OJ's, what, when will I see you again? All those Philly international hits. That's Earl Young. Nine times out of ten, it's Earl Young on drums. And he's telling me. He's like, this is Earl's blanket. I'm gonna teach you how to get that dead drum sound. And I was like, okay. And he goes to my drum set, and he takes the blanket. And I'm thinking he's, like, gonna put it in the kick drum or, you know, or maybe put it on the wall to stop a sound. And he's like. He puts it over the drum set. He's like, all right, play it now. I was like, huh? He's like, yeah, just play it. I said, wait, I'm supposed to hit the drum on top of the blankets like this? Yeah. And in my mind, I'm like, this old guy. This sounds whack. But, dude, instantly, we couldn't tell the difference. The guys couldn't tell the difference. I was like, which one is better? And they're like, that one's better. I was like, you dumb motherfuckers, those are my drums. So there's that. So here's the thing now. I told you with Half Life that it's an amazing accomplishment that we made such a cohesive record, especially when I spent more time trying to sabotage that record than I did serving the song. So I will say that the theme, the takeaway theme from this album is it's so amazing that we made such a cohesive record when it was probably our most fragmented process of making it. So let's go back to Malik's situation. There's a moment where, you know, again, Malik's not. A lion's share of our money is.

[A]

Made on the road, and he doesn't come on the road, and he's not.

[B]

Coming on the road. But it's also like, we gotta keep him alive. We decided collectively to still keep him on payroll. Just so that, you know, if you're broke and in this state, you make bad decisions, right? That's when. Now we gotta get a lawyer and, you know, and all that stuff. So it's just like, all right, we'll keep him alive, and we'll just have him rhyme, you know, on album is.

[A]

Rich able to, like, reach him when needed. Like, I know he disappears.

[B]

Malik just always knows when to show up.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

It's just always like that. He's always reachable. Like, we have pagers, and by this point, the cell phone's a thing where we all gotta have one. But there's this one moment where I was working on a remix. A cat named Ronnie Size yeah, yeah.

[F]

Calming down New sound, you should be thankful 30 whips, 30 beats and 30.

[B]

Samples sell our shows, take the money.

[F]

Then we cancel front rows, back rolls, get a trap, yeah, coming down New sound should be thankful 30 riffs, 30 beats, 30 samples.

[B]

Just wins the Mercury Prize, which is, like, a big deal. It's almost like me winning the Oscar. Like someone from drum and bass wins the album of the year over in, you know, Britain. And so I'm doing it. Giles Peterson, who had a hand in discovering us, asked me to do a remix for Ronnie Size, and I did it. And, you know, remixes are also, like, good side money. I'm not quite in DJ zone yet where I could make a quickie. Blah, blah, blah, Thousand dollars djing for an hour and a half. So, you know, doing a remix is give me a nice piece of change. And, you know, Malik just. It was one of the days where Malik was having a dark cloud thing. I don't know what happened, but he sort of just stormed off. And I guess that was his expression of, like, you know, I need more money.

[A]

Or like, he stormed out of the session for the remix, or he wasn't.

[B]

Part of the session. He just came in, like, what y' all working on? I was like, I'm doing a remix. And I guess to him, like, me saying remix, I might as well say, hey, I'm just earning $25,000 here. Like that sort of thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And when you have a dependency, you're just hustling for more money and more money. And so he, like, stormed out of there, which I thought was kind of weird. Okay, whatever. And then maybe like, a day or two later, we're starting to get those, you know, reek. Yo, what's up with Your peep. Like that sort of thing. Like, I saw Da da Da on south street. And he's talking to himself and it's getting bad.

[A]

And this is during the Things Fall Apart.

[B]

So what winds up happening is we're working late, like 2am I'm taking a nap on the couch out in the reception area, and I wake up to some commotion. I guess Malik just, like, comes to the studio and just randomly sucker punches the assistant engineer. Whoa. You know, this intern guy, poor kid, like, kid from high school. Literally didn't say anything. And Malik just, like, punched him. And he's, like, holding his face all bloody and whatever. And, you know, Joe Tarcia rightfully was like, I'm sorry, I can't have this. I gotta kick you guys out now. I'm in a pickle. Cause it's like, yo, my. My trademark sound. We just got perfection with the sound here. And so we had to take a week out just to assess what it is to find a new home. Now it just so happens that one of the members of mfsb, the lead cellist, Larry Gold, has just opened a studio courtesy recommended by Fatin of Kindred, in Northern Liberty's Philadelphia. He's like, well, Larry Gold has a studio there, so, you know, maybe I can introduce you guys or whatever. So Rich talks to Larry Gold, and that place actually winds up becoming our home base for the next, like, 20 years. We get studio space there, and so for the most part, they're gonna record their vocals over there. I do not wanna lose my sound. And Joe Tarcia knows me. I'm Lee Andrews, kid. So the mea culpa kind of olive branch thing was like, you know, we made it right? And I said, look, I know that you feel some sort of way about, like, hanger ons in the studio and all that stuff, whatever. But look, if, you know, everyone goes to Larry Gold's to record their vocals, can we at least track the music here where it's, you know, where I feel comfortable and da da da da. And he thought about, it's like, you're cool, Amir. Yeah. But Malik can never come back to the studio. And I was fine with that. But here's the problem, though. So now we are tracking music without feedback. Do y' all feel this? Do y' all not feel this? But it also gives me more space to not feel the pressure of, like, cross every T and dot every I.

[A]

Pleasing the MCs, right?

[B]

So I'm just doing what I feel. So the reason why this really feels like I feel like, this is like, my record, musically at least, is because.

[A]

You ended up making it in your own space.

[B]

Yeah, making my own space, my own time, my own, you know. And James Poyser, who also has space in the spot, is like, come by to visit and, you know, we're working on Erica's stuff together and doing other stuff together, and suddenly there's a dysfunctional synergy. So this is where it becomes problematic. So now let's cut to maybe three months later. So now, you know, we have a system, airtight system. Sunday nights, we do these jam sessions at Wetlands. Friday nights, we do the jam sessions formally at my house. And now we move that to Tuesday nights at the five spot. So music wise, like, everybody's coming back to the fold. Like Scott Storch.

[A]

Scott Storch coming back in the fold.

[B]

To the fold.

[A]

He's a big star at that point, right in his own right.

[B]

This is the moment that's about to catapult him into stardom. So, you know, when it comes to jam session time, it's like, okay, I got stuff for y'. All. Like, here. Here's some stuff. And so those jam sessions from Wetlands and from the Tuesday night five spot, they will start resulting in, yo, remember that. Or like, yo, remember exactly at 10:16, that part that Scott played. And we'll go back to the DATs that we recorded from the jam sessions and listen to it. And now we're going to start recording these things. So this is how stuff is quickly elevating. A good example is adrenaline. That was like a jam session staple.

[C]

They used to talk shit but I'm a quiet Them kicking the door with my boys get the riot then first that flinch I'mma fire him, take him up, grip his hands and ply them Know the bricks is in here where you hiding them don't die in the that you lying in I used to get front of bricks now I'm buying them Used to cop off my man and I'm supplying him Play the front row seat Watching Iris in first class air crash when I'm flying in to LA Sha Eddie, Kobe Bryant and them say the jokes of Chris Tucker Richard prime now used the shotgun to come cars man I'm driving them Used to hustle around bars y' all was robbing them Ran up in y' all spot with robbing them Grew up too far we're crying them but do my dirt 21st with Kyle and them Pop Buzz little marking them brother news school Marley parking them jump pull a punk low sparking them I know right now getting dark in them Tore their body y' all up Ain't no chalking them I'm too sharp for them Move out in the dark enough these in the doubt.

[B]

I remember, like, telling Richard, like, yo, Malik's boy, we gotta make sure that he does that and them rhyme.

[A]

So he used to come to the. To the jams.

[B]

And the version of Beanie Seagull's verse, the version of Beanie sequels verse on Things Fall Apart is the edited amended equal, 2432 bar version. Nah, he had like damn near a 15 minute. It was like watching a thing of beauty, man. Just like, how the hell did you do a narrative rhyming and them.

[A]

And them.

[B]

Yeah, but like, just like the amount of text that you. The volume, the sheer volume of what you're memorizing, it's a point where you just stop playing and we're just. Yo, he's really gonna go on for like 10 minutes. No, 15. It's a 20 minute run. What the. And it was instantly like, yo, that boy, get him on the record. And so initially, Beanie was third on Adrenaline. And, you know, I think the general rule is, like, you gotta go last on your own record. But, you know, I honestly knew that, you know, you three might have to figure out the pole position. You know what I mean? Like, I believe initially, like, Tariq was gonna end Adrenaline, but, uh, after that, I don't want to hear nothing else after Beanie's sequel.

[A]

And then is Dice on there too?

[B]

Right. So here's the thing. The original version of Adrenaline was we had to figure out the position. Tariq went first, Malik went second, Beanie went third, and Dice went last. Because I think for a second it was going to be like, we might have to drop Dice's verse and just let it be those three, you know? Cause the thing was, it's like, even with Dice's role on the album, each subsequent project, like, wait, is he about to be the capodanna to, you know, Ghost and Ray? Like, nah, just let's just do one song, maybe two. But like, not every song, like now, all of a sudden, it's nothing against Dice, whatever. But it's like I wanted Tariq to be the focus. Which is weird because this is probably for anyone, like, that gets on the Internet's, like, yo, I wish that, you know, Tariq and Malik would, you know, Tariq would just do a regular hip hop record, that sort of thing. I'm like, dude, like, if you think Things Fall Apart's our best Record Tariq only has like nine verses. Like, it's literally he's. Every song has a feature from someone else. It just feels like a cohesive record. But what wound up happening, I think at the very last minute in mastering, I decided to switch Dice and Beans and let Beans close it. So in mastering, I fixed that because it was just after Beans. Like, you don't want to hear anything else after that. So let him close it.

[A]

I think, because he's. From my. From a listener standpoint especially. Cause Beanie already was starting to get known on the Def Jam side of things with Jay and all of that. So he felt like a visitor from another world anyway. And it felt like, yeah, you let the visitor.

[B]

Well, we wanted to claim him. And we had some skin in the game. But little did I know that the moment he did that and them rhyme at the jam session, yeah, that air smooth. And those guys literally took him to.

[A]

Sign him to Rockefeller.

[B]

And he came back the next week as a signee to Rockefeller. It was like, oh, man, we lost him. Shit. You know, that sort of thing. So that's pretty much the system that we had. So here's the thing. Now, five months into it, now it's time to mix.

[A]

But you're not done recording yet.

[B]

We're never done recording.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So it's like I'm tracking at Sigma, they're doing vocals at the studio.

[A]

Is this Pro Tools time?

[B]

There's some Pro Tools, but I prefer. I prefer music wise, to do the reels. So I'm tracking at Sigma Music, they're doing vocals at the studio, which is like eight blocks away. And now I gotta do. We gotta do Double Duty. Cause then me and Rich will take a train or drive up to New York to either Battery Studio for Bob Power or to Hit Factory with Axl Nias to mix. And what winds up happening is a little visit. Sort of a revisitation of how it was with Things Fall Apart. Like when I'm first hearing distortion and static for the first time. So now I'm mixing stuff and I'm hearing the song for the first time.

[A]

You're hearing the vocals on the song. And are they. I guess you'll tell me what you're hearing is different.

[B]

Yeah, for the first time. So here's the thing. It's like, all right. So I thought the purpose of the jam sessions was to get musical inspiration, but not necessarily have to carry on the backs like a whole bunch of unknown emcees and unknown singers and whatever. So let's skip to youo got me. I get to the second verse, and I'm like, whoa, who's this rhyming? And Rich just started new. Like, it's the Jornee.

[D]

I'm on the side. You only loving your mind I know you got to get that paper, daddy keep that tight but, yo, I need some sort of love in my life, you dig me? While politicking with my sister from New York City, she says she know this ball player and he think I'm pretty s I'm playing boo, you know, it's just what you want staying boo and when cats be bombing game I don't hear what they saying when you out there in the world, I'm still your girl.

[B]

So E was around the way Philly joint that used to dance at some club that, like, chaos had brought into the fold and whatnot. And I'm getting a little pissed. Cause I'm like, all right, this is our fourth time at bat. You know, it didn't work with Silent Treatment. It didn't work with what they do. I'm almost thinking that we might not have a fifth time at bat. And I'm very much certain that this is the song. This is the one that might save us.

[A]

Okay, quick aside.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

How does the music for you got me started?

[B]

Yeah, it starts with me going to Rich Medina, and I believe Bobbito had. So Philly has a burgeoning kind of, I'll say, poetry scene. And we have these little hip hop shops in Philadelphia. There's a spot called Footwork that Bobbito and Rich Medina have in Philadelphia. And this is where you can get, like, T shirts and records and all that stuff there. But at nighttime, maybe on weekends, they'll have, like, poetry slams there. There's like, Nuyorican, if you Google the roots, Nuyorican Cafe, whatever. I think you'll see Common, Tariq, me, and James Poiser make up the next movement on the spot at Nuyorican Cafe up in New York.

[F]

Get rode to y' all, y' all homies on some old school shit My man come and fit the next move. The next move, man, I show improve it I came to do shit, I got the. Plus I drink beer got two or.

[C]

Three I come to MC and New York.

[B]

So the Philly version of it is also bringing out the Philly cats. Tripita Mason, Ursula Rucker, and Jill Scott was one of them Philly poets. And she made one of the most common, glorious stage entrances I've ever seen in my life. Where she came, she was one of the people in the audience. And the person was like, okay, so up next, we have a poet from North Philadelphia. Every time I close my eyes and we're looking like it's one of them, like Malcolm X. Like, get your hands out my pocket. Like, sort of moments, like, wait, who's disrupting? And even the woman, the emcee of the place, is, like, not knowing what's going on here. And Jill's, like, coming from the back of the audience singing, jody C's freaking you. And she does this, like, this crazy sex poem about Jill. And sex are. Poetry is very familiar. Like, her way with words and whatnot. And we just watched this, like, who the fuck is that? And where can we be down? So instantly it was a Star is born moment. Didn't know that Scott Storch was there. So instantly, Jill and Scott hook up. It's like, let's work on some music together. So Scott has a small room at Sigma, and that's where they will start the origins of you Got Me. And it was sort of like, hey, come out of the studio and listen to what we're cooking up. So I go there and track number three. I hear it. Wow, that's something. Instantly, we knew we had something. So we wrote it with the quickness. You Got me was done. The label was like, all right, we feel it. But who's this? It's like, Jill Scott. Who is Jill Scott? Ah. Said, yo, man, it's Jill Scott. She's like the movement, the future, whatever. She's cool. She can sing.

[A]

But did she really take that and make that the title based on, literally.

[B]

The label, as on this moment. Wow. Who is Jill Scott? And the label was like, look, let's just really get some insurance down. Cause no one knows who Jill Scott is. And she doesn't look like someone that's in the industry, which was actually the selling point of Jill, that she looks like her audience. So it was like, let's roll with Erica.

[F]

This hit right here is called you got me. You know what I mean? It's on our album, which is called things Fall Apart. And we got this shit. Know what I mean? And on the song Erykah Badu is singing a chorus. This real smoothed out.

[B]

But I.

[F]

But guess what? Tonight I'm gonna introduce you to the young lady from Philadelphia that actually wrote that piece. You know what I'm saying? Check it out. And she down with the Roots crew, and she go by the name of Ms. Jill Scott. I want y' all to put your hands together, Say what Give it up, Jelly from Philly. Word up. You're not ready. All right, now, for all of y' all out there that know how this song go, I want y' all to sing along with love, you know what I mean? And if you don't know, then just open your minds and your ears and feel this. She keep telling me.

[D]

What club I went to with my homies Baby, don't worry, you know that you got me if you were worried about when I know who I saw what club I went to with my homies.

[B]

Now, Jill's version of it was that she found out about it later. But I know that you have to sign off on this thing before, so I will not discredit Jill's version of it. She says that I found out I was replaced when I heard it on the radio, which I was like, no, I definitely remember us having the. You know, which one of us is going to tell Jill that? You know, she still got her credit as a songwriter and all that stuff, but.

[A]

But it turns a star making moment into like, oh, I still gotta wait.

[B]

Right? And we just couldn't take that risk. And it was like Erica's Red hot right now. It made sense.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It probably would have gone further with Jill, but at that point, safety was the key. And so Erica did it. And even Erica was like, y' all crazy. Homegirl is way better than me at this thing. So this, you know, it took a lot to get to that perfection of finally, you know. And even in tracking it, Rich says this is my sabotage moment that I had another moment that I had with the spark, like, it's missing something. And my answer was, well, since Rich said we gotta go back to the first 10 years of the group, remember living in London and messing with, like, Deego and the four hero cats, like, let me do some drum and bass thing, just like we used to. I'm gonna introduce drum and bass. And the thing was, is that I was working on Ronnie Size's record, so.

[A]

Right. You're right there in that zone anyway.

[B]

Right. So instantly, basically, because I was doing all this German bass stuff with Ronnie's Size anyway, yet to break out in the States. You know, shit, let's do that here. I wanted it the whole song, though.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

And I'm going.

[A]

So he had to talk you down off of that one.

[B]

Yeah. So that became. Even though you got me. Was. Was early in it. I will say that it was a battle. I mean, I would say the end. Jill's version was definitely the better version. But we had to make a business decision.

[D]

What club I went to with my own baby. Don't worry, you know that you got me if you worry.

[A]

Now see, I told you it was a cliffhanger. If you didn't believe me, you should. See y' all next week. Things Fall Apart Part 3. This is what had happened was.

[B]

Stony island of Marigold.