← What Next: TBD | Tech, power, and the future
What Next: TBD | Tech, power, and the future
Why He Sued Roblox
00:33:21
Mike Hilgers joins a growing list of AGs suing the platform over child safety.
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- [00:00]
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- [01:49]
Lizzie O'Leary
Why don't I just have you actually introduce yourself? Tell my listeners who you are?
- [01:53]
Mike Hilgers
Sure. My name is Mike Hilgers and I am the currently am the Nebraska Attorney General.
- [02:01]
Lizzie O'Leary
Hilgers has four kids, he's a Republican and he's one of seven state attorneys general suing the online gaming platform Roblox. Roblox has about 150 million daily active users and about 40% of those users are under 13. In the App Store, Roblox is rated for age 13 and up. But let's be honest, kids play Roblox. Multiple investigations by various news outlets and state AG's offices have found child predators on the platform. In 2024, Bloomberg News found that police in the U.S. had arrested at least two dozen people in the previous six years for abducting or abusing victims they'd met on Roblo. Tell me why you have decided to sue Roblox.
- [02:51]
Mike Hilgers
Well, social media Social media games are one of the most important issues I think facing Nebraskans, if you've left, if you've read the book Anxious Generation from Jonathan Haidt, you understand sort of like the issues that these are posing for policymakers and for parents. By the way, I'm a father of four.
- [03:07]
Lizzie O'Leary
I know.
- [03:07]
Mike Hilgers
And so we've been heavily engaged in this space with TikTok Meta. We sued both those companies. Roblox poses really two specific issues that we're very concerned about. The first issue is an issue that we do see with other social media companies or social media adjacent companies and that is just the availability of extremely inappropriate content that is made available to really young kids in the Roblox context. We've seen games or experiences, which is how this site works, that allow a six year old to go to, to a replica of Jeffrey Epstein's island. We've seen experiences where they can recreate school shootings or go to strip clubs or be in games where there's sexual assault happening of the young person's avatar or anyone's avatar for that matter. So the inappropriate content is a huge issue for us. We don't think kids of any age should be exposed to that. And so that's a big issue. But the second issue is as important, if not more so, which is Roblox has become an area that has really become, in my view, a playground for predators where all over the world predators can come and actually groom younger children here in Nebraska and other states. And we've seen it. In fact, even just within the last two hours, we've gotten a call in our office from a concerned parent with a 10 year old daughter who is being groomed on Roadblocks. So those are the kind of the twin issues that we're seeing. And the legal claim for us is that Roblox is telling parents that this is a really safe place. We've got all the safeguards in place. We're going to do all the right things. This content's not available and those are not those. Those assertions are not true. And so that's why we're ultimately suing.
- [04:45]
Lizzie O'Leary
Today on the show, a conversation about Roblox online safety and what kinds of digital freedoms our kids should have. I'm Lizzie o' Leary and you're listening to what Next tbd, a show about technology, power and how the future will be determined. Stick around.
- [05:03]
Mike Hilgers
Foreign.
- [05:14]
Lizzie O'Leary
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- [06:10]
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- [07:34]
Lizzie O'Leary
As I mentioned before, Nebraska is the seventh state to sue Roblox. Louisiana county has also sued the company and there is multi district litigation that combines many different individual lawsuits against Roblox. I started by asking Hilders why bring this suit now?
- [07:54]
Mike Hilgers
Well, there's no time like the present I think. I mean we have to. This has been something that's been on our radar for a little bit of time. Like as I mentioned, we've been heavily involved in the social media space. We have been looking at roadblocks over the last several months. We've probably started last summer when this really became something that was a really significant and live issue for us. You have to do your diligence whenever you file a lawsuit. We're not interested in my office of just filing a lawsuit for headlines. We're not interested in just filing a lawsuit just to say we filed. We want to do the right thing. And that takes some time to actually pull it all together. But as soon as it was ready and able to go, that's why we decided to file. So it wasn't anything other than we completed our investigation and we were ready to bring claims.
- [08:33]
Lizzie O'Leary
I want you to help me understand one legal aspect of this. So as I know you know, one of Roblox and many of the platforms, their central claims is that they are protected under section 230 of the Communications Decency act that they are not liable for third party content or actions on their site. Site. How is this not tossed out immediately under CDA 230?
- [08:57]
Mike Hilgers
It's a great question because what we are attacking is not necessarily the third party. The fact that these third party developers have put these games onto Roblox's platform. What we're saying is Roblox, the moment that you say to parents, the moment that you say make representations to the public in Nebraska that Roblox is safe, that it's a place that has all these particular safety precautions that are put in place and that they do everything possible to protect children and that none of these types of things exist on their platform, that when that is not true or in our view, at a minimum, it's highly deceptive, I don't think it's true, but at a minimum it's deceptive. At that moment you're doing something separate and apart from the content itself. You're making a representation about what is on your service. If they were to say as an example, hey you know what, there's actually a lot of predators on our site and you know what? We can't stop them all. Or hey, you know, there's some really inappropriate things that your six year old might be exposed to. To be honest, our deceptive UDIPTA claims would not have really the same kind of force and we would have a much more difficult time bringing those claims. But this is a different, this is different from saying hey, these third party developers have put inappropriate content on your platform. We're saying don't make the representations about what is or is not on your platform that are untrue.
- [10:13]
Lizzie O'Leary
So you think that Roblox's parental controls and the things where they say like you can curate your child's experiences, those are just weak sauce.
- [10:23]
Mike Hilgers
Well, there are some, certainly are some flaws in those statements that you just referenced. But our actual bigger concern are not that they can curate or curate the experience or that there's some parental controls. They're actually making very explicit and definitive statements about the, the underlying safety of their platform and the type of content that is on their platform. You cannot say, as Roblox has done, I don't have the direct quote in front of me that this is an extremely safe place and we do all the best practices. When you don't actually, when it is not safe and you don't actually have the best practices. I mean their age verification system is incredible to use your phrase is, is weak sauce in my, in my view, they're not using best, best practices in a whole number of respects which we could talk about. So those are the, those really definitive statements. And I'll tell you as a parent, I mean I actually remember a year and a half ago my daughter came to me, she was about 12 at the time, and had a presentation on Roblox and what she used. Cause she was trying to convince me to let her use it and what she used to.
- [11:19]
Lizzie O'Leary
Dad, here are my reasons that I
- [11:20]
Mike Hilgers
want to do this 100%. It was a PowerPoint and I got to tell you, I was very impressed and what she relied on. And had I just, had I not been the Attorney General investigating them, I think I would have said, of course, because what she said was she had a whole PowerPoint. Hey dad, look, look. Roblox says this is incredibly safe. These parental controls are very, very strong. They have the, the strongest, you know, protections in the marketplace or whatever the representations that they're, they were making. So for parents have to be able to rely on the statements made by these companies that they're true and not misleading. And so that's really at the end of the day, really the big part of our concern.
- [11:59]
Lizzie O'Leary
In response to Nebraska's lawsuit, roblox's Chief Safety Officer Matt Kaufman released a statement saying while we share Attorney General Hilders commitment to keeping kids and teens safe online, we are disappointed that he has filed a lawsuit that fundamentally misrepresents how Roblox works. Roblox built with safety at its core and we strengthen our protections every day in our ongoing efforts to help keep our community safe. We prohibit user to user image and video sharing, utilize rigorous filters to block personal information from being shared, and enforce global age based settings that limit Younger users to chatting with peers by default. This fall. In many ways, in response to this wave of lawsuits, Roblox rolled out these sort of systems designed to analyze faces to in their words, keep kids from talking to adults they don't know. What do you think of that move?
- [13:02]
Mike Hilgers
Any move that they make to improve their system is a good move, but it's woefully insufficient for a couple reasons. Number one, actually on their rollout itself there were a lot of problems. The AI system as it rolled out would classify 6 year olds as adults and adults as 6 year old, 6 year, you know, minors. So that's the first problem. The second problem, it doesn't utilize all the best practices that we've seen. We've seen in other contexts, say in the pornography industry where people do use ephemeral age verification using IDs. There are privacy concerns around that. But we've kind of established around the country there are services that enable you to sort of quickly check IDs. It's not stored, protects people's privacy. So I think there's, there's some real issues. The other, the other problem is there is a whole marketplace of actual, there's a marketplace of verified IDs. So in other words, if you're, you're a 20 year old or 30 or you're, you're an adult and you want to prey on minors and you, a lot of times the grooming starts by saying, hey, I'm a six year old just like you. You can actually go and purchase verified IDs of minors. So you can go get a 6 year old, quote, verified ID even if you're 25 years old or 35 years old. So I think there's significant, I'm glad that they're taking steps, no doubt about it. But there are significant issues in the way that they've deployed that particular verification system.
- [14:14]
Lizzie O'Leary
What kind of a remedy would you like to see?
- [14:18]
Mike Hilgers
Two remedies that we're seeking. I think right now the most important thing is to get the representations of the system fixed. Like this is not primarily meant for monetary damages. We're trying to fix that underlying problem.
- [14:31]
Lizzie O'Leary
This is not shut down Roblox.
- [14:34]
Mike Hilgers
No, it's absolutely not. We're not seeking to shut down Roblox. We are seeking for them to stop doing what they're doing, which is making misrepresentations about their product. Though two ways you can fix that are, number one, which is, well, not as good, but I'll take it as if they actually are honest and say, yeah, there's predators on the site and it's unsafe. Prefer they don't. I mean I prefer they actually fix it, but at least they're being honest. And parents then can actually rely on the statements that they're being told. That's number one. But that really fundamentally what we'd like to see are enough protections to ensure that kids can operate on this site safely. This is unlike TikTok and others in a way because it's really marketed for kids. So we're based within this whole system the sort of economic premise of that. What they're trying to do in the marketplace is that children will use it. And so we want to make sure they're protecting protection. So age verification, it's a good start. Another example would be right now, if you are a predator and they catch you and you're kicked off the system, you could that very same day sign up under another user account, which to me seems relatively insane. We'd love to see better, more robust pre verification systems of new experiences. Right now the developers are able to kind of grade their own homework and say, you know, this is suitable for all ages on the system. And we know that's actually not true. So those are a couple of the starting points. Limit myself to just those kinds of changes. But those are a beginning point. We are also seeking penalties under our U DIPTA statute. But this is not meant as just a monetary recovery. It's. It's a huge company that's market cap in the tens of billions of dollars. A dollar penalty, while important, is not going to change behavior. We want behavior to be changed to save really another generation of kids.
- [16:10]
Lizzie O'Leary
Can you envision a safe roadblocks or a Roblox that you would say yes to your daughter being on?
- [16:21]
Mike Hilgers
I think so, yes, I think I can. At a minimum, with the starting point that I just described, I think that would be a good starting point. Yes, I could envision it, absolutely. If I couldn't, I think we might actually try to seek to shut down some of these companies. But no, I think with American ingenuity and the ability of engineers, especially with AI technology and using some of these other best practices. But the key is there's gotta be a willingness. I think there's a way if, if there's a will. And what we've seen, at least from some of the earnings reports is that there's been an indication that look, consumer growth, user growth is really great for the bottom line. And the percentage of money spent on safety, the lower that goes, that is also better for the bottom line. Now, I know you could do some things with efficiencies, but right now, from the public earnings statements of the roadblocks leadership, it certainly feels like the economic motivators are not to do what you just described, which is to create a roadblocks that is safe for kids.
- [17:14]
Lizzie O'Leary
Well, it's fascinating to hear you say that because, you know, one of the big trends we have seen, especially in social media companies over the last few years and certainly as the Trump administration began its second term, was to cut trust and safety teams on the staffs of these big companies. And you're saying invest in safety.
- [17:35]
Mike Hilgers
Yes, but let's be. I want to. I think that's a really good point. Let's sort of tease that out individually because what I'm saying is not, what Roblox has not said is that we, we are going to spend a lot of money on trust and safety, but we just have fewer people because there's different means to get to the goal. What they have said is we want to spend less on trust and safety. Now you, you could spend a, you could have a great robust trust and safety program that is, that has very few people actually involved. So I don't want to, what I don't want to suggest is that my view is, is that every company is be. To be very prescriptive and say what you have to do is have, you know, a hundred thousand people in your trust and safety team. I'm not saying that especially with technological tools, the are. But what I am saying is that when your corporate leadership is saying that we have significant and strong economic incentives to reduce the spend on trust and safety, it gives me a lot of pause that you're, that you're doing the right thing to make this thing actually safe for kids. So I don't want to be too prescriptive and say have fewer, fewer people, more people. I don't know what the right number is. And I'm not saying you can't even do a lot of this with technological tools. What I am saying though, is the indication of this company in particular certainly suggests that their economic motives are not quite aligned with the trust and safety initiatives that I'd like to see.
- [18:49]
Lizzie O'Leary
That's a very pro content moderation stance though, for someone in your party.
- [18:56]
Mike Hilgers
It, it's a strong safety stance. I think the con, I think it's a little different from social media to a degree in the sense that what we're not trying to do is necessarily dictate some of the things that are said on Roadblocks. What we're trying to do is make sure that the games that are put on are verified and robust on the front end. The things that are presented to children in particular are safe. And we're trying to ensure that predators don't have an opening to groom children. To the extent that those are problems that exist on other social media companies, I'd like to think of all parties, I think grooming, I think those are things that people would all share. Certainly. Now, what I'm not saying, though, I think it's important what I'm not saying because I think a lot of times in this social media context people say, you know, let's get into, you know, maybe some of these issues that really are core free speech concerns. And I don't think the position that I'm taking on safety in the Roblox context is really a free speech type of issue.
- [19:56]
Lizzie O'Leary
When we come back, would you let your child's photo be used for age verification?
- [20:10]
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- [21:18]
Mike Hilgers
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- [21:31]
Lizzie O'Leary
I am really curious as a parent who is immersed in this and I, I have read this suit. There is some really awful stuff in here. You have four kids. How do you talk to them about tech and what are your rules for them?
- [21:46]
Mike Hilgers
Oh my gosh. We, how much time do we have left on this interview? This is, it's, it's a hard thing. So let me just tell you what my rules are.
- [21:55]
Lizzie O'Leary
Yeah.
- [21:55]
Mike Hilgers
And, and, and there's there, there's no, I mean, we're trying to figure, I feel like this generation of parents is trying to figure it out as we go. It's one of the most. That's probably the topic number one or two that I have when I'm having a conversation with any other parent. We might be a little bit of an outlier. But here's what I so my daughter is 14. I have daughters that are 14, 11, and 9. And I have a son who's 7. None of them have access to a smartphone. My daughter, when she became, when she got into eighth grade, got an Apple Watch. She is earning her way towards a smartphone by the time she is 16. I got that, by the way, based on Jonathan Haidt's recommendations from his, his book when she gets that smartphone, we'll likely have some technological restrictions so that we can not. I don't want to. It's not a surveillance state. But if there's, you know, grooming activity or other things that are going on that are appropriate, I can get, I can get notifications. Everyone else has no access to, to smartphone technology. We do have a family computer that is in an open room, and so when they use it, there's usually an adult around, and so they can't use it in there. So that then when, as I talk about, to tell you the context, I talk about my kids, I do talk about it with them individually and try my best to sort of explain why it is that I'm doing it. I also try to explain these lawsuits because if you might imagine this, my lawsuits are. Tend to not be popular within the age cohort of my daughter's classmates. So she's, she's, she's been teased and, and had kind of gotten grief in high school and in grade school. When I sued TikTok, she got a lot of reaction when I sued Roblox. And that's difficult because what I, and what I try to tell my child, my daughter, I say, look, I never want you to be harmed by any of the things that I do. That's. This is my life. It's my public service. It's what I'm trying to do. I want you to be safe from that. And I feel very, I feel terrible that anyone would say anything negative to you. But I also say, like, there are children out there today that are being harmed, being groomed, and really bad people are doing really bad things to them because these companies don't have the protections in place. And I could not live with myself if I didn't do the right thing by those kids. And so I hope you just understand that I'm trying to do the right thing. And I feel terrible that you're impacted at all. That's how I approach it. I tell you what, there's no playbook. I don't know if there's a right or wrong, but that's the best way that we've tried to do it in our family.
- [24:13]
Lizzie O'Leary
There are, I think, a lot of different initiatives floating around because a lot of parents, you, like me, just in general don't quite know what to do. There's cosa, the Kids Online Safety Act. There's a push for age verification laws. I want to ask you about age verification because it's very controversial. How do you think about age verification? One of the arguments is it would take away privacy, having a database of faces, for example. I think a lot of Americans rightly balk at that. What do you think about it?
- [24:49]
Mike Hilgers
We've thought a lot about it in part because we had to defend a Nebraska law that in which they, they required age verification for pornography sites. And what we found in that investigation is just that there. I understand that concern, by the way. Let me, let me preface. I understand the concern. I don't think we want a public database of all the people's faces, especially if they're using these sites that are meant for adults. But there is technology I mentioned a few minutes ago that does allow and does provide for this ephemeral age verification in which people can have their age verified via an actual government issued id, but the information is not saved. And at least so far that I've seen, that particular approach seems to be very effective and seems to thread the needle. And maybe not for everyone, but for me, thread the needle between saying, look, on the one hand we need to make sure that we can verify who you say you are, but on the other hand we're not really implicating. Is this the privacy concerns in the
- [25:41]
Lizzie O'Leary
same way, but a lot of teenagers don't have a government issued id.
- [25:46]
Mike Hilgers
Well, that's right. And part of the, part of the, usually when you have age verification in place, what you're trying to do is actually stop kids from accessing some of, some of these sites. So at least in the pornography context, that's what it was. Now in the, what you really, what you're trying to do in the Roblox context is not to say, you know, you know, 12 year old, you, you, where's your age, age, you know, your identification. You can't actually use this site. Really trying to do is make sure that the grownups, the potential predators, you're aware who they are and that you actually understand who's on the site in terms of, you know, the grownups and the adults and what access they might have to young kids.
- [26:22]
Lizzie O'Leary
Would you let your own kids submit their photos to some kind of database? Like let's say Roblox says we want to take a picture of your kid for them to be on it. What would you do?
- [26:35]
Mike Hilgers
Roblox? So I would have zero problem with an ephemeral age verification system. Would I want Roblox to have a permanent picture of my child? I probably would have some hesitancy there, to be honest. It's the first time I've ever been asked that question. So I'd have to probably think that through a little bit more in more depth, but certainly the ephemeral verification systems I wouldn't have any problem with.
- [27:00]
Lizzie O'Leary
You have sued, as you said, many platforms you joined one of the suits against Meta that alleges the company knew that its products were addictive and damaging to teens. What do you think is an appropriate remedy for Meta here?
- [27:18]
Mike Hilgers
Meta. All of these I think are kind of of a piece. And that is when you ask about remedies. Yeah, remedies, I think in large part because in each of these cases they're similar. And the reason I say they're of a piece is because they're all kind of similar in that they're, they're making representations about the safety of their platforms that ultimately are not true or we believe are highly, highly deceptive. Meta like TikTok, like Roblox. What we would like to see is continued stronger platform protection to be able to ensure that these kids truly are not getting the type of content that they have. Meta like TikTok. We had our investigators go on these sites. They weren't really 10 year old girls, but they'd create accounts of 10 year old girls and within minutes or not much time they would be inundated with, with utterly inappropriate content. And so what we want to see is how they are describing the safety of their site to actually match up with the site. That's ultimately what we're trying to see.
- [28:18]
Lizzie O'Leary
Why not just ban social media for people under 16 the way Australia did?
- [28:23]
Mike Hilgers
You know, I mean, look, I think everyone's trying to figure this out all in real time and I think parents are trying to figure it out and policymakers and I think that's something that we ought to all be considering. I have not taken that position yet. I wouldn't want to foreclose the possibility that I would down the road. I think that's what we're grappling with. Look, I mean that's what we've done with other things that are harmful to developing minds. That's what we've done with alcohol, that's what we've done with cigarettes. And I think it should be an option on the table. And to be quite honest, I think there's a point at which if these social media and other companies don't do the right things to ensure that they're protecting young minds, which by the way, we know the data's in that the social media is causing a, is a cause of our mental health crisis, especially for younger women. And as society, as a society we are left holding the bag and dealing with the cause as these companies are making extraordinary amounts of revenue off these kids. And so I think if they don't get their act together there will be public pressure, I think there will be legislative pressure to start to take more dramatic actions. And I think the question is, is Australia the canary in the coal mine are an outlier? And I'll tell you what, if things don't change significantly, it very well could be the canary in the coal mine over the next couple.
- [29:35]
Lizzie O'Leary
It's such a difficult question because as you've noted, it gets into free speech concerns, it gets into the government telling private companies what they can and cannot do. It also has the potential depending on where your teenager is, what they're doing, it might foreclose on their attempt to find community. Let's say they live in a very rural place and they don't have a lot of friends or have people like them, but they've made that community on the Internet. It that's not an easy question and
- [30:06]
Mike Hilgers
you're right, you're not, it's not an easy question. I'll tell you. When I grew up in the 80s, in the 90s, I mean I was on the computer, I taught myself C programming and I was on the early message boards and there's people you can connect with. I mean look there, there can be significant societal upside for young kids to be able to have access to these larger networks. You say community, I agree. I would also argue the ability to access one large amounts of potential information experts. I mean you think about going on places like X, you can have access to all sorts of all sorts of leading experts and information that you otherwise wouldn't have in on. As a matter of principle, I'd like my 14 year old to have as much access to that as someone else. That's why I think we don't want to have to go down the ran the, the sort of the road of banning these types of programs. But, but eventually there's sort of a cost benefit and if we get to a point where the, the cost is outweighing the benefit, I think that's a live conversation but you're exactly it an easy question. And I think as I mentioned a minute ago, we are grappling with this in real time and I think our ideal state is to get as much of the benefit as we can while really dramatically reducing the downside. I think way we do that is get these social media companies and companies like Roblox to really play ball and take some of this more, a little bit more seriously than they have.
- [31:21]
Lizzie O'Leary
You mentioned X. I know that you post on X. I am curious. That is a platform that has certainly recently had a, a large amount of child sexual abuse material CSAM on it, courtesy of grok. Why stay on that platform?
- [31:36]
Mike Hilgers
Well, I think X has been a very valuable platform for me. I mean it allows me to get an enormous amount of information from all around the globe, somewhat around curated topics, but even around all sorts of other things that I would not know about. Allows me to connect with a lot of people who have a lot of interesting things to say. So the value that I get from X, from the news, information, et cetera, is very, very high. Now, the CCM issues are real issues. We've had conversations with X. They've done a lot of work to clean up the specific GROK related issue that you've described. I think they've made a lot of progress. So I don't think something like that is enough to say, hey, I'm not going to use this platform any anymore in terms of the cost benefit for me. And I think there's a significant amount of benefit that I get from using that platform.
- [32:17]
Lizzie O'Leary
And you don't mind the sort of Elon Musk Grok put me in a bikini part of it.
- [32:20]
Mike Hilgers
It. Well, I don't think those things are good, but they are. I guess your question is. What's implied in your question from my perspective is not whether that thing is good or bad. Of course that's not good. And they're addressing, I think those, those things and have addressed to a large degree the issues that you're referring to. The question though, what I took from it is is that so bad that I should get off when you say
- [32:47]
Lizzie O'Leary
no,
- [32:49]
Mike Hilgers
no, that's exactly right. That's exactly right.
- [32:52]
Lizzie O'Leary
One of the things I find fascinating about talking to you is I would suspect that a lot of parents where I live, I live in Park Slope, Brooklyn, would completely disagree with you on many, many issues, but not on social media and not on roblox. Why do you think think this has resonated with people of so many different political persuasions? Why does it unite parents even as many of our children or the younger people around us disagree?
- [33:37]
Mike Hilgers
That's a good question. I think there's probably a lot of different reasons. If I'm answering it, I would say I think there's just parental anxiety. You know, you're trying to do the right thing by your kids and there's. And you're trying. I mean that's Our, our most. That's the most important asset of my life is not asset. That's. I'm sorry. It's the most important thing in my life is my kids. I'll do anything for my kids. You know, I'll pop a bear for my kids. I die for my kids. So that's one. And I think that's an instinct for everyone. If you're a Republican, Democrat, anything in between, if you're in Brooklyn, if you're in Florida, if you're in California, Nebraska. That's a universal human instinct is to protect your kids. I think the second thing is some of the things that we see that we, that we have seen, some of which you and I have talked about today are just objectively outrageous. I mean the things that we've seen on our site, on our investigation on TikTok or the these places, whether we talked about it today, like the Jeffrey Epstein island that a six year old can go go play on or some of the things we've seen on TikTok that drive suicide, suicidal ideation, body dysmorphia issues. I think it's just objectively we rejectively and reflexively reject those things objectively I think they're just wrong. There's also just a larger anxiety of just we feel like something's going on and impacting our kids and we want to have not control over. We want to be able to protect our kids and know what they're sort of the types of information that they're seeing. I think it's such, it's so fast moving.
- [35:01]
Lizzie O'Leary
Yeah.
- [35:01]
Mike Hilgers
And it's unlike the Nintendo when I was in the, you know, in the 80s where it's just. There's sort of an anxiety around understanding this technology and what it can do. And I think the last thing is we know that when it goes south, it goes south in a very negative way. We know it's caused in certain circumstances suicide. We know it's just had behavioral modifications, we know it's impacted mental health issues. So I think you add up all of those things. I think that's a pretty good starting point. To answer your question. There may be a lot of other reasons why but, but I think those are probably a pretty good starting point.
- [35:31]
Lizzie O'Leary
But it feels so intractable and it feels like the, the CEOs of many of these corporations are very close with say if you look at the inauguration photos, right. You've got Mark Zuckerberg right there with the president and many other tech CEOs. It doesn't feel like a parent has power.
- [35:55]
Mike Hilgers
I think that's a very good observation. I think, especially if you let your kids onto these sites, I think it does feel like you don't have a lot of power. I will tell you personally that I feel like I'm a little more, I wouldn't say in control, but I feel very comfortable in the decision I made to not allow my children to have access to those devices and that I would say I would not feel powerless in that instance. But I think your broader point is a good one, which is certainly these companies, I think, have not really bent the curve of their behavior, even in the face of these sort of really large lawsuits. And to go back to a point I made a minute ago, if they don't do that, if they don't get to a place next year, two or three hesitate to put a timeline on it, there are other tools in the toolbox for parents and legislators and others to really take matters into their own hands. And if they are feeling powerless to actually they feel like they can have more control and maybe this, the country goes more in the way that Australia did. And so my hope is that all of that suggests to these companies there's
- [37:04]
Lizzie O'Leary
appetite in Washington for that.
- [37:07]
Mike Hilgers
I think there's appetites. No, no, no. Well, first of all, I think in Washington, there's not a whole look, COPPA hasn't been changed in a long time. I think there's a lot of reasons to be skeptical that D.C. at the present moment will solve a lot of these intractable problems. But I will tell you, in Nebraska, in the state legislature, there absolutely is a desire. In fact, just last year, our state legislature passed a whole suite of bills really, designed to go after these social media companies, all of which were opposed by the social media companies and all of which also passed. States have significant amount of authority and power. They have the ability to enact some of these bans. And I think that there will be political will in states, red states or blue ones, to take more dramatic action if we don't see more action on behalf of the companies to ensure that these kids are protected.
- [38:00]
Lizzie O'Leary
Attorney General Hilders, thank you so much for coming on.
- [38:04]
Mike Hilgers
It was great to be with you. Thank you so much. I enjoyed the conversation.
- [38:08]
Lizzie O'Leary
Mike Hilders is the Attorney General for Nebraska. All right, that is it for our show today. What Next TBD is produced by Evan Campbell and Patrick Fort. Our show was edited by Elena Schwartz. Paige Osborne is the senior supervising producer for what Next and what Next tbd. Mia Lobel is the executive producer here at TBD is part of the larger what Next Family. And we'll be back next week with more episodes. I'm Lizzie o'. Leary. Thanks for listening.
- [38:48]
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