Arthur C. Brooks: Are We Happy Yet?

Summary

What Now? with Trevor Noah — "Arthur C. Brooks: Are We Happy Yet?" (Mar 12, 2026)
Guest: Arthur C. Brooks
Host: Trevor Noah, with co-host Eugene

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Episode Overview

In this insightful and playful episode, Trevor Noah sits down with happiness expert Arthur C. Brooks to unpack the science, myths, and practical realities of happiness in modern life. The conversation seamlessly blends stories of personal embarrassment and resilience with rigorous research into what makes people happy—and what doesn't. Trevor, Arthur, and Eugene delve into the neuroscience of emotions, the pitfalls of modern "pursuits," social media, the power of relationships, and the nuances of individual temperament. Along the way, they challenge common cultural narratives, reflect on life’s biggest “side quests,” and discuss actionable ways for anyone to find deeper satisfaction and meaning.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Happiness, Failure, and Formative Moments

• Stories of Embarrassment: Each host shares a childhood or young adult moment of public embarrassment—Arthur’s tumble off the stage at his Carnegie Hall debut ([09:13]), Trevor’s trip as a tortoise in a school play ([12:47]), Eugene’s traumatic first-day-of-school suspenders incident ([17:45]). These moments became crucial in shaping confidence and resilience.
• Turning Pain Into Growth: Arthur reflects, “The pain that you have must be illuminated…the day to day suffering that they’re going to inevitably face, that’s their teacher, it makes them who they actually are.” ([25:04])
• Facing Fear: Arthur recounts a story of a young man he inspired to confess his love and get rejected, only to learn, “That was the thing I was literally most afraid of in my life. And it happened. And I didn’t die.” ([28:13])

2. What Actually is Happiness?

• Not Just a Feeling: Brooks breaks down happiness as something deeper than fleeting emotions: “Happiness is not a feeling—kind of like your Thanksgiving dinner is not the smell of your turkey. The feeling of happiness is evidence of actual happiness.” ([31:01])
• The Three Macronutrients of Happiness:
  1. Enjoyment – not just pleasure but deeper, meaningful joy.
  2. Satisfaction – joy from accomplishment after struggle.
  3. Meaning – the “why” of your existence.
• “You need to become an elite athlete in enjoying your life, taking satisfaction in your achievements, and understanding the why of your existence.” ([31:34])
• Meaning’s Three Questions:
  1. Coherence (why do things happen?),
  2. Significance (does my life matter?),
  3. Purpose (goals and direction).

3. Myth-Busting: Pursuit of Happiness, Arrival Fallacy, and Side-Quest Living

• Movies & The “Happily Ever After” Myth: Trevor and Arthur agree that rom-coms and fairy tales have warped expectations. “It ended at the moment where the people met…I always wondered what that did to people’s brains…if you meet the person you love, that’s the end.” ([55:04])
• The Real Journey: Arthur: “Heavily ever after actually gives you a distorted understanding of what brings happiness in life. It’s the journey…it’s walking into the future together.” ([56:39])
• The Side-Quest Analogy: Trevor explains how the most enjoyable video games, like life, are about “progress points”—it’s not about finishing, but enjoying the side quests ([52:31]).
• Arrival Fallacy: Arthur on why achieving big goals doesn’t bring lasting bliss: “It’s very common that Olympic athletes who win the gold suffer a clinical depression in the two months after they win the gold…” ([45:41])

4. Neuroscience & The Brain’s Role in Happiness

• Negative Emotions as Evolutionary Alarms: Brooks explores why the human brain is wired to focus on negative emotions—they kept us alive. “The limbic system of the brain has more tissue dedicated to negative emotion than positive…” ([38:51])
• Hedonic Treadmill: Constantly chasing feelings or “dopamine hits” leads to cycles where “you’re just running, running, running…the treadmill speeds up…that’s no way to live.” ([61:28])
• Individual Brains, Individual Needs: The “mad scientist” and “cheerleader” temperaments—Arthur explains that happiness interventions must be individualized ([124:22]).

5. The Social Piece: Relationships, Community, and Politics

• Individualism vs. Community: Arthur warns, “You can't actually find love by becoming more and more isolated.” ([95:27])
• Technology and Meaninglessness: Over-reliance on screens and tech is pushing young people away from activities and habits that produce meaning, leading to an “epidemic” of dissatisfaction ([101:22]).
• Political Polarization: Arthur and Trevor cite Robert Putnam, noting that “good relationships in society is what creates good politics” ([81:18]).
• Giving & Leisure as Joy: True leisure isn’t idleness but deep engagement—“Leisure is something you're truly good at…relationships with your closest friends, spiritual depth, going deeper and deeper…” ([119:43])

6. Personal Growth, Resetting, and Pilgrimages

• Arthur’s Own Transformation: Brooks shares his walk along the Camino de Santiago, which shattered his workaholic routine and led to a new life mission. “You walk yourself into a vulnerable state. You got to be weak if you’re going to find the truth.” ([72:14])
• Reverse Bucket List: Rather than adding, try subtracting—what can you give up each year that doesn’t serve you? ([80:17])

7. Practical Takeaways: How Can We All Be Happier?

• Faith, Family, Friendship, and Meaningful Work: The essential habits of happy people aren't fancy—“The happiest people are doing what our grandmothers did.” ([101:17])
• Practical Suggestions:
  • Cultivate spiritual depth
  • Prioritize and go deeper with friends/family
  • Seek meaningful engagement over passive tech use
  • Chip away at what doesn’t serve you (reverse bucket list)
  • Practice enjoyment and leisure as a skill, not just relaxation
  • Exercise and nurture a spiritual life to counteract “negative affect” ([130:44])
• Luck Theory: Trevor outlines four types of luck, highlighting that creating space and motion in your life invites “luck”—or more accurately, serendipitous opportunities ([112:55]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Arthur C. Brooks:
  • On childhood achievement and workaholism: “I loved having people tell me I was worthwhile…I got a lot of attention and affection—which is what all people who are addicted to success later in life have.” ([08:08])
  • On falling at Carnegie Hall: “The most stressful point of the concert, I had to walk to the front of the stage and talk…and I fell off the front of the stage.” ([09:45])
  • On suffering as teacher: “The day-to-day suffering that they’re going to inevitably face, that’s their teacher. It makes them who they actually are.” ([25:04])
  • On happiness not being a feeling: “Happiness is a feeling kind of like…Thanksgiving dinner is the smell of your turkey. The feeling of happiness is evidence of actual happiness.” ([31:01])
  • On the danger of individuality: “You can't actually find love by becoming more and more isolated.” ([95:27])
  • On ‘reverse bucket lists’: “Now I don’t have a bucket list on my birthday. I have a reverse bucket list—what am I going to stop doing this year?” ([80:20])
• Trevor Noah:
  • On arrival fallacy and happiness myths: “We always just talk about luck as if it’s one flat idea. Lucky, unlucky, terrible, good things. Not bad for you…” ([112:44])
  • On learning to enjoy life: “I’ve worked my entire life. What I’ve never been particularly good at is living.” ([110:57])
  • On rest and exhaustion (from his mom): “Have you noticed that you work yourself to death, then you rest, but you don’t rest, you’re just exhausted?” ([118:41])
• Eugene:
  • On overcoming embarrassment and building confidence: “My mom said, you know where. Wait, okay. In Zulu, she said, means where were you broken?…she said…life is going to be like that. People are going to try. You mustn’t let them.” ([23:00])
  • On finding joy in others’ happiness: “If I’m able to take myself away from what I think is entertaining and watch others who I care about being entertained, that makes me happy.” ([84:13])
  • On living philosophy: “No matter who says what and how uncomfortable it is, you didn’t break anywhere. You must just keep going…You can always start over.” ([122:48])

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Segment | Timestamps | |------------------------------------------|--------------| | Childhood Embarrassment & Lessons | 07:32—25:04 | | What is Happiness? (Brooks’s framework) | 30:23—35:43 | | Meaning, Coherence & Conspiracy Theories | 33:31—37:39 | | Negative Emotions, Brain & Survival | 38:51—44:00 | | Human Relationships & Community | 81:59—85:47 | | Technology, Social Media & Boredom | 101:22—108:14| | Pilgrimage & Brooks’s Transformation | 71:36—74:45 | | Enjoyment, Leisure & Practical Steps | 117:24—121:35| | Personality Quadrants & Managing Affect | 124:22—130:01|

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Final Thoughts

The episode concludes with actionable advice for listeners: True happiness isn’t a destination, nor is it a perpetual feeling—it’s found in the ongoing pursuit of enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning, anchored in relationships and a willingness to embrace the journey (with all its side quests and setbacks). As Arthur notes, “You need to manage your unhappiness more than raise your happiness.”

Trevor aspires to become a "professional at living," intentionally creating margins in his work-centric schedule to invite serendipity, growth, and yes—leisure.

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A highly engaging and substantive listen for anyone wanting to move from chasing happiness to living it, one deliberate step at a time.

Transcript

[A]

I've often thought one of the worst things that happened to society was a series of movies, whether it was kids movies or adult movies, rom coms. But that were happily ever after. Like, they. They ended at the moment where the people met. And I always wondered what that did to people's brains growing up in a world where they went like, oh, if you meet the person you love, that's the end. And then it's like, this is it. Like, what is that?

[B]

Pac man as well.

[A]

I never finished Pac man was.

[B]

They meet and then.

[A]

Yeah, but I never. I've never seen the end of Pac Man. Yeah, I saw junior Pac man, so I know what they did, but I don't know.

[C]

But there's junior Pacman.

[A]

Yeah, Junior Pacman.

[C]

Junior Pacman.

[A]

There was Junior Pacman.

[B]

Junior Pacman.

[A]

Yeah, Junior Pacman. So I. Like a tiny little Pacman had a little bow and then the biggity, but like a tiny little pec.

[B]

So as a girl pecman.

[A]

Yeah, there was a boy and girl and a boy.

[C]

Ms. Pacman.

[A]

No, there was Ms. Pac man, but then there was also Junior Pac Man.

[C]

Junior Pac Man.

[A]

Yeah. No, no, they.

[C]

The whole family.

[A]

Yeah, Pac man had.

[C]

I like these family values in video games like this.

[A]

Yeah, no, Pac man did it, bro.

[B]

I was like, okay, yeah, Mario and Luigi did it.

[A]

Well, they were brothers, bro. I think you're mixing up the story.

[B]

Yeah, they were family members.

[A]

Oh, yeah, they were.

[C]

They were my kids. My kids are. You know, they'd be. They'd be like, what are these guys? Pac Man. What are they talking about?

[A]

Okay, Elden ring. Fine, we'll bring in Elden Ring, Super Mario, Call of Duty, we'll go. We got every game covered here. You. You tell us the generation.

[C]

I don't know.

[B]

We're here, and we've got you.

[C]

We've.

[A]

We got you. It doesn't matter what it is. This is what now with Trevor Noah. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. Imagine this. You're at a checkout counter. You're ready to pay, when you realize you don't have your wallet. Dun, dun, dun. You could drive all the way back home and you could get it, but you remember that you have your Apple card on your iPhone, so you can tap to pay with Apple Pay. Imagine that. No need to carry a wallet. But, you know, one of the things I do like about having my card on my phone is we live in a world where you lose your card and then you don't know where it is, and then you're like, what do I do? Well, if your phone is connected to your card and your card is connected to your phone, you know what's going on. The best thing about having the Apple card connected to your phone is you know what every transaction is. You know, like, sometimes you're like, what did I spend this month? The Apple card will show you one month. I had spent an obscene amount of money ordering videos online.

[B]

Just videos?

[A]

They were just videos.

[B]

What kind of videos?

[A]

That's not the point. The point is, I knew that I didn't want to order those videos anymore because I'd spent too much money on was videos on how to not spend money online.

[B]

I felt like I'd been duped.

[A]

Point is, Apple showed me what I was spending my money on, and I was able to change my spending habits. And you can do it too. I earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase with my Apple card. That's unlimited daily cash back no matter where I shop. Apply for Apple card in the wallet app on your iPhone. Subject to credit approval. Apple card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and more at applecard.com Security usually means extra steps and complications. But with Apple pay, secure payments are simple. Your transactions are authenticated with face id, touch ID or passcode. So security is is built in when you check out. Plus, your name isn't shared with merchants and they don't see your actual card number. Whether you're shopping in store online or an app, protecting your money should be simple. Pay the Apple way. Terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Verizon. All right, Eugene, let's play a little game. You know, make something fun. Two truths and a lie. Here we go. One, I've had to tell a world leader that their fly was undone. Two, when getting dressed, I don't do sock, sock, shoe, shoe. I do sock, shoe, sock, shoe. Three, I've been a Verizon customer for 11 years. What do you think?

[B]

Very confused. First of all, why would a world leader own a fly? Because those things just come uninvited. Secondly, lying to your friends is not cool. There's never been a game.

[A]

No, Eugene. Fly is for, like, the zip is what? And then it's not a lie. It's a game where I'm trying. It's like I give you information. Okay, I lied. All three are true, Eugene. And in case you were thinking, you know, Verizon isn't as expensive as you think. In fact, if you bring in your AT&T or T mobile bill, they'll give you a better deal. And the reason I've been with them for this long is just because I travel so much. I need a network that's reliable. That's right. A better deal on the best network with the most ways to save on plans, streaming and phone deals. Take your AT&T or T mobile bill to your local Verizon store today. Get your better deal and start saving for real. Based on root metrics, best overall Mobile Network Performance, U.S. second Half 2025. All rights reserved. You must provide recent consumer mobile bill in the name of the person redeeming the deal. Additional terms, conditions and restrictions apply. So do you understand how two truths. And do you understand it now?

[B]

I understand that you didn't have to lie first before telling me that Verizon is the best.

[A]

No, I wasn't lying, Eugene. It's not a lie. I wouldn't lie to you. It's a game. Okay, I'm sorry I lied.

[C]

Ah, Yeah. No, no, I mean. So you're on. You're on tour all the time.

[A]

Not on tour, but just like life takes me, you know, I've had the gift and the curse of planting, you know, many trees in many different places. So oftentimes they call me to go and tend to them.

[C]

Right.

[A]

This is not a euphemism for families. Eugene, please. Please.

[C]

How many children do you have?

[A]

No, Eugene was about two. Please, Eugene. I have zero. None of these things. Oh, yes.

[B]

Do you speak Zulu?

[C]

It turns out I don't. It turns out I don't.

[B]

Because the way you. You turn like.

[C]

Yeah, it's like.

[B]

Yeah, you look.

[C]

I got my. My grandparents. Yeah, my. My great grandparents, actually. They. They. They were Danish and they had this. They believed the Holy Spirit spoke to them, that they should go become missionaries. Lutheran missionaries to the Zulus.

[A]

No ways.

[C]

Yeah. And they didn't speak a word of the Zulu language, which is problematic.

[A]

Big problem.

[C]

But they knew that the Holy Spirit would teach them the Zulu language. And he didn't. And he didn't. And so they. So they left after 10 months. And they came. They didn't go back to Denmark. They came to the United States and started a farm in South Dakota.

[A]

Do you understand how this one moment in time, if your grandparents just learned Zulu, you could have been South African. This would have been a totally different conversation.

[C]

Completely different conversation. And you and I would have had, you know, these sort of parallel.

[A]

This is. I mean, look at this connection. The other day, I was at Carnegie hall, and I was thinking, you fell off the stage. I Did at Carnegie Hall.

[C]

You heard about that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did.

[B]

What happened?

[C]

That was my Carnegie hall debut. It was beautiful. I was 22.

[B]

What happened?

[C]

I was doing my Carnegie hall debut in chamber music. I was like a professional French horn player. You? All through. Through my 20s. I left. I left college at 19. I dropped out.

[A]

Just to confirm, which one is the French horn?

[C]

The round one.

[B]

Yeah, the one you put under your. Then you.

[C]

It's the round one. And then it has the bell in the back that you put your hand in.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Huh. And so the bell is going backwards.

[A]

Okay, okay, okay. Got it, got it, got it.

[C]

And I wanted to be the world's greatest French horn player since the time. Since I was 8 years old.

[B]

You knew this is what you wanted to do?

[C]

I knew.

[A]

What did you see that made you think French horn player? Me?

[C]

Well, I. I was a good musician. I started violin at four and piano at five and then the French horn at eight. And that's what I was really good at. And when you're a little kid, I mean, it's not like I loved music. I loved having people tell me that I was worthwhile. And I got a lot of attention and affection, which is what all people who are addicted to success later in life have. And anybody who's a workaholic later in life, ordinarily their childhood is characterized by getting attention from adults because of what they do and feeling like love is earned. Which characteristic is. People I work with all the time, I say, let me tell you something about your childhood. And they say, how did you know? Because every striver has a different version of that same story. And so that's what I loved. I loved the attention that I actually got for being better than everybody else at one particular weird thing. And so I went pro at 19, playing chamber music and trying to become a soloist. And at 22, I got my big break, which was my Carnegie hall debut.

[B]

No way.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And at one point in the concert, the most stressful point of the concert, I had to walk to the front of the stage and talk to the audience to tell them about the next piece. And that's what stressed me out the most.

[B]

Were you holding the French horn?

[A]

Of course.

[C]

Of course. But, you know, playing the French horn didn't stress me out. Talking to people in public stressed me out, because I'd never done it, so. And I was. I was rehearsing it in my mind and rehearsing. Going through it and going through. And it came time, and I was really nervous, and I walked to the front of the stage. And I wasn't looking at my. And I fell off the front of the stage.

[A]

I've always wondered about string torn in hand.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And that's what I've always wanted to ask somebody about falling off of a stage.

[C]

It's the worst.

[A]

Yeah. Because it. You watch videos of people who do it all the time, Whether it's a catwalk, whether it's a performance or they just disappear. You know, they do their thing. It's like one minute they're there one minute, then it's like gone. How painful is it?

[C]

It's very. Well, it's about six feet. I land it on my elbow, so it was very painful. And I did a lot of damage to my instrument as well. And of course, I did what anybody would do, any 22 year old man would do. I jumped up and said, I'm okay, folks.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Instrument is mangled. I'm clearly in pain. And there's a gasp from the audience.

[B]

Oh, man.

[A]

It's so funny that humans do that. Why are we more concerned with like assuaging the like. Like everyone out there is having their own, like, fear. Everyone out there is going, are you okay? And we're like, no, no, no, I am okay. Do not worry about the arm that's dangling in the wrong direction.

[C]

That's clearly something broken.

[A]

You do not worry.

[B]

Yeah, I also think, let's move on. A group. Are you okay? Is not about you. It's about them.

[A]

But that's what I'm saying. Why do we care about. You've just fallen off the stage.

[B]

No, it's just about them. Is this concert gonna continue? Is he still gonna be able to do this thing for us? That's fine.

[A]

Where does that come from?

[B]

What do we need to get into?

[A]

What do you think that is?

[C]

So that's a natural human tendency to show strength. That's the natural human tendency to show resiliency. And it's especially true for men. They don't want to look as if they're vulnerable in any way. They don't want to look like they're weak in any way. It's very, very embarrassing to show that something has hurt you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

For young men, especially in front of a whole bunch of people that I'm trying to impress. I'd been spending the last hour and a half trying to impress them as deeply as I possibly could. This is my New York.

[B]

Carnegie Hall.

[C]

Carnegie hall, baby. I mean, how do you get to Carnegie Hall? Well, try not to fall off the stage. Among other things. And. And, and so during that, what you don't want is that to care. Your weakness to characterize your New York debut, that's not what you want. And so the result is you're trying to wind back time. You know, Trying to wind back the time. I say. I'm. Okay, folks, let's just go back to the concert. It's like, we're never going back.

[A]

We've just lost a French horn.

[C]

So that has happened to you, Some version of that, right?

[A]

Never.

[C]

There's never been anything in your life that has been.

[A]

Oh, you mean like on a stage?

[C]

Your version of Hollywood?

[A]

No, I mean, we've all had that somewhere.

[C]

But tell me.

[B]

Tell the story we want to know. Particularly yours.

[A]

Yeah, let me think of one.

[C]

You're next, Eugene.

[B]

I thought you were Zulu brothers.

[A]

What's going on here? Oh, wow. I'm hoping. So this is gonna bring us closer to happiness, right?

[C]

Okay, I promise.

[A]

So we've got to find this unhappy memory, and then you're gonna bring us closer to happiness.

[C]

Cause we're laugh like crazy about it.

[A]

Let me think. Where was one? Okay, I'll tell you where was. Where one was. The earliest I can sort of remember in my life was I was in a school play and.

[B]

Your school had plays?

[A]

Yeah. Your school didn't have plays?

[B]

Hey, hey.

[A]

No. So I was in a school play, and I was six or seven years old. And in the play, I was. I was portraying a tortoise, right? And so I had a big shell on my back and a whole thing. And there was one part of the play where we all had this, like, March dance thing where it's like, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da da. And we walk off the stage, and then we walk back onto the stage. And we walk off the stage on the stage. And then I was walking back onto the stage, and as I got up onto one of the steps, one of my tortoise feet caught the step. Cause I hadn't walked much on stairs with tortoise feet. Human feet are pretty much didn't attend much rehearsals. I mean, even then I did.

[B]

Also. Rehearsals don't happen with costumes on.

[A]

Yeah, they don't. Most of the time you just do it with like, you know. And I tripped. But it was one of those, like, you know, where you save yourself from tripping, and so it makes the trip worse.

[C]

So you're just like. You're flying.

[A]

Because I often think if you just trip and fall down and get up, it's not bad. But sometimes you go, I'm not tripping, I'm not tripping. And then it draws attention to the trip. So it was like. And then while this was happening, everyone's turning and the whole school, when I tell you the whole school cuz was in the hall, laughed at the same time. And you know the laugh that kids have, young kids, it's not just like a hahaha, like horrible hunting. It's that one of like they love that laugh. What the whole school up to maybe

[B]

it was like teachers, 300 kids.

[A]

You man. And that happened. And I remember the blood left my head and left my. I just, I just wanted to disappear. Yeah, right. And then as I'm walking on the stage, because we have to do the parade multiple times as we walking down the other side, we come back up. And then I did it again, but this time I did it on purpose. And then they laughed.

[C]

Well played.

[B]

I did it as a bid Charlie Chaplin.

[A]

Then they laughed again.

[C]

Uh huh.

[A]

And then after the show, one of the teachers came and was like, that was comedic genius. Oh, well done. That was brilliant and whatnot.

[C]

What? A star is born.

[A]

Yeah, it was literally and that. But I remember the shift in that moment from that. There's few moments in my life that I think have had more of an impact on me than that specific moment.

[C]

The presence of mind that that takes. It's six years old to figure out that this is a comedic bit.

[A]

I don't think I thought it was a comedic. I don't think I thought it was a comedic bit. I think I thought to myself, if I can be the person who is creating this, then you can't hold it against me. Does that make sense?

[C]

It makes sense. It actually explains a lot.

[A]

Yeah, I was going like, oh okay, no, no, I'm the one who did it. I'm the one. Oh yeah, I did it. I did it.

[C]

So the second time it's interesting. So it was surprising to them, but funny at the same time. The second time actually. So there's this really interesting thing about comedy. There's a little part of the limbic system of your brain. It's called the parahippocampal gyru. And what it does is that that's what mediates surprise. That's the reason that all humor is based on surprise. It's all based on surprise. And so what'll happen? I mean any stupid. I could tell you a stupid dad joke and it's all based on it. So I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather, not screaming. In terror like his passengers.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Right.

[B]

That's a pride.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

That's a good one.

[A]

No, no, no.

[C]

Thanks, neighbor psychos. That's great. You'll have more of my kids. So what that does is that flicks the parahippocampal gyrus, and if it's too much, you're gonna like. Why are you making fun of hurricane victims?

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Right.

[C]

And if it's too little, it's a pun. And you're like, you see?

[A]

But it's because it's basically. What is that part of the brain responsible for predicting something, though what is happening?

[C]

It sorts out cognitive dissonance.

[B]

Got it.

[C]

It sorts it out that. You know, the parahippocampal gyrus is like. You're going in one direction and then you say, what happened? Oh, that. And that makes you laugh. That's what makes you laugh. That's why surprise is funny. It's inherently. And not the kind of surprise like the lawyer's on the phone. Not that kind of surprise.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And so that's how all humor works. Right. And so that's what you did at 6. You have a nose for it. You basically said, I'm going to come around the other time and I'm going to surprise them because the last thing that they're expecting is that Trevor trips a second time.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And that's why they cracked up. But honestly, the first time they mocked you. The second time they actually laughed.

[A]

Yeah, no, no. The second time they were. I had taken control of the thing.

[C]

Yeah, but you did it to. To flick their little pair of hippocampal gyrus. When you control the pair of hippocampal gyrus, you control the world. Actually, maybe that's a little bit too.

[B]

The gyro pot doesn't have anything to do with the gyroscope. Nothing. Okay.

[A]

So what's yours, Eugene?

[C]

Yeah, no, we're getting to the good stuff here.

[B]

We'll get.

[A]

What's your. What's your moment?

[B]

Why you looking at me like you expect me to tell me to tell you guys something embarrassing about my.

[A]

No, it's not.

[B]

Em. Just.

[A]

What's your moment?

[B]

So this was my first year of school.

[C]

Ah.

[B]

So my parents had bought me a school uniform. Right. So everyone is excited about me going to school for. Personally, I've been looking at these gray flannel plants for the longest time. I'm going to wear these pants. My uniform, my white shirt. I'm going to do this thing. So it came with a belt. Ironically, that's what I forgot this time on my trip. And I've gone to shop so many times. Almost bought the shy sti. But not a belt in any case. So I go to school for the first week on Friday and remember it's orientation for us. So they're teaching us the songs that we must sing at assembly. We had assembly, but it was outside, no hall.

[A]

You were like six years old.

[B]

Six years, yeah.

[A]

First year of school.

[B]

So all of this is happening. I lose my belt playing football after school. So on Friday I have to go to school without a belt. My mom notices that I don't have a belt on. What does she do? She had bought a pair of suspenders for Christmas clothes.

[C]

This is not the fashion statement you're trying to make. Is this what I gather? Maybe he's reliving this horrible moment. Maybe this moment of trauma because. No, wait.

[A]

Maybe the professor will explain to you

[B]

you were a tripping turtle.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, bro.

[B]

And I didn't go.

[A]

No, let me explain.

[B]

Wait, wait, wait. Let me explain.

[A]

Wait, let me explain what happened to my brain. What happened there?

[B]

Hippocampus gyro.

[A]

My hippocampus gyro.

[C]

Para hippocampal gyro.

[A]

That one found a new one. Yeah, hippocampal gyro. You see, the hippocampal gyro, it got flicked in my brain because of all the things I thought you would say. I did not think the word suspenders was going to come into this story at all. You said. Then my mom found out and then I thought my mom was going to get angry. My mom was going to shatter.

[B]

My mom was.

[A]

There were many things.

[B]

Well, she didn't. She was.

[C]

No, no, no.

[A]

But then you said my mom had bought a pair of suspenders. Yes.

[B]

For my Christmas clothes that I avoided to wear.

[A]

Now carry on because Christmas clothes are telling you. I wasn't laughing at you. I was laughing at the suspenders that were just in the mix.

[C]

He was laughing with you or about

[A]

you, but not at you. Sorry. I apologize. Carry on. So your mom had bought us Christmas

[B]

suspenders that I avoided.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Throughout the whole entire December.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I managed to go through Christmas, start wearing them. Then she said, you're going to put on these suspenders. Cuz this. These pants are going to fall because they're not the exact size. You have to wear them. You have to grow into them a little.

[A]

Grow into your clothes? Yeah.

[B]

This is two years worth of pants here. They've hemmed them up at the bottom. They're loose Fitting. So I wear the suspenders. And mind you, I have to walk to school. There's no drop offs here. So all the way, I'm wearing a jersey in the heat, going to school, hiding the suspenders. Hiding the suspenders. I get to school where in assembly, I'm the shortest kid, so they put me right at the front. So we're singing this song, right? Our Father who art in heaven. But we had a version, an English version and a Isizulu version. So I went to a Catholic crutch. So I knew the song very well. So the teacher that's been teaching us at assembly to sing this song for the longest time, Eugene noticed that I was actually hitting all the notes and switching between the two languages. And then he said to me, you guys are idiots. There's this kid here, he. Four days in this school, fifth day today, and he's hitting all the right notes. This is our school song. Our Father art in heaven. Hallowed be thy name, Thy king.

[A]

Yes. And this kid's nailing it.

[B]

This kid is nailing it, which means he's the shortest here. He's the youngest here. He's the newest here. There's people who've been here for four years. This song is not working for you. But this kid is nailing it. So what I'm gonna do is I'm

[A]

gonna ask this kid, I knew it.

[C]

And you went up in front of the school.

[B]

I'm gonna ask this kid to come in front, yo, start the hymn from the beginning and sing this thing. Then I'm like, huh. So, man, traumatic look that I have whenever something. When you spring something on me and my hypogyros canvas is affected. There's the same this look I've been having since I was 6. So he takes his time instructing the biggest kid in the school to go fetch a desk in one of the classes to put as a stage for me. Oh, then as this stage, my Carnegie hall is being erected in front of me or behind me. He says to me, this jersey, in this heat, this is South Africa in January. It's hot. So he says, you can't be wearing a jersey. Take off. I'm like, no, trust me, I'm fine. He goes, you are not going to do that. And mind you, this is with a belt. The tailor made sure, Taylor being my mom, that the heming up of these pants fitted perfectly to my ankles. Now suspenders, on the other hand, they pull it way. Were suspending my ankles. That's what they were doing. And then he said, to me, the jersey is coming off. So now I'm six years old, small kid, I'm trying to argue with this teacher as he grabs the shoulders and pulls off this jersey while he's plucking me up and putting me on stage.

[A]

Oh man. Yeah, oh man.

[B]

All of that the happened. And I knew I had one option here, cuz the other option was if I jump off stage, I'll make a bigger idiot of myself. Cuz this rickety desk might actually be the end of me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Then I stood there and I continued singing the song Our Father who went on and on and until they all kept quiet. And I switched between the two songs. Zulu version, the English version. And it ended then. From then onwards, everyone called me our father for that year. Then I was like, it's ironic because

[C]

they didn't call you suspenders.

[B]

So that was, that was, that was my story. And then I went home and I told my mom that story. And you know, I was so embarrassed because it felt like a long day obviously of what happened, the nicknames that happened afterwards on my way home, playing soccer afterwards there. And my mom said, you know where. Wait, okay. In Zulu, she said, means where were you broken? Then I said, no, they hurt my feelings. Yeah, yeah, I hear that. But is there any part of you that they took away from you physically? Then I said, nothing. She says, life is going to be like that. People are going to try. You mustn't let them. Someone can surprise you about something that you are. They will say many things about you, but don't believe them because it won't break any bit of you. And the other thing was my name. People didn't know how to pronounce my name or write my name. And she taught me how to teach people how to pronounce my name. Said you must say E O Ken because if they want you to pronounce it like that, it means they're slow and you're not. So I learned all of those little things. And when it came to stage and performing after a bad show, you're like, this is nothing compared to standing in a. On top of a desk in an assembly with suspenders.

[A]

Beautiful. I'm basically picturing like, like a African forest gump now. Yep, 100% literally like the suspenders and your mom being like, You can't sit here, Our father, you can't sit here.

[B]

I haven't accessed that memory for the longest time.

[C]

There you go.

[B]

In fact, never.

[A]

That is so powerful and most powerful for me. Thank you.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

You know, you you know what? The, the happiness you've brought to me. One, you've brought me closer to my friend. But two, and more importantly, in your story, I noticed you were playing football. I was good at football.

[B]

What do you mean? I was playing football.

[A]

But now I see, like you, you're playing football. The football made you lose your belt. And this is another reason that you now hate football. I'm slowly piecing this together, my friend.

[C]

But for both of you guys, you think about this. These are the formative experiences that make us who we are. See, here's the deal. And this is the real problem, especially today. A lot of young people watch you big fans.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

The biggest mistake that a lot of young people make today is they think that the pain that they have must be illuminated. And the truth is that these experiences and the day to day suffering that they're going to inevitably face, that's their teacher, it makes them who they actually are. So to the extent that we resist the pain in our lives to try to lower the suffering that we face, the worse off we are, the worse off that we are. The fact is, I asked you about something that was a really bad day for you. You turned it into a good day. This was a unambiguously bad day for you and for me it was the worst day of my young adult life.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And in point of fact, these things made us who we are in a very, in a fundamental way. This was, these were turning points, these were inflections. I realized that day that I didn't actually have to be this person, that it didn't matter. It didn't matter. That that wasn't who I was, was the guy falling off the stage. That wasn't who I was. Here's the deal. It's funny, I was talking to this young guy I was talking to. I do a lot of talks for young adults. And I was talking to a group of young adults in Washington D.C. they were all working on Capitol Hill. And Washington D.C. is the world's most dysfunctional dating market. It's a nightmare.

[A]

In what way?

[C]

That everybody's kind of climbing and they want power and everybody's jockeying for position. It's socially dysfunctional. And I'm talking to this group, they're all in their 20 somethings on the Senate side. And, and I was talking about, you know, you got to treat your life like a startup. You got to be an entrepreneur in the business of your own life. Your life is an enterprise. You're the founder and the number one most entrepreneurial Thing that you can do, you know what it is? Fall in love and put your heart at risk. Give your heart away. Right? And I thought it was pretty clever. Anyway, a couple weeks later, I'm on a plane and a kid comes up. A kid, 26 kid compared to me. Comes up and says, professor Brooks? I said, yeah. He said, I saw you give that talk on Capitol Hill. I can't get it out of my head. I'm on my way right now to tell a woman that I've been in love with secretly for two years that I love her because of your speech. And I'm like, it's only a speech. I don't want to ruin your life. I don't want to ruin your life. Our hippocampus gyro, her parahippocampal gyrus about to get flicked pretty hard. Anyway, so. And so I said, well, you know, let me know how it goes. And I give him my email. You don't hear from him, which is a bad sign. I see him several months later at a party in dc. I was running a company in those days. He comes up to me and he says, remember me? And I'm like, yeah.

[B]

Why so much?

[C]

And I said, yeah, on the plane, right? He said, yeah. I said, so what happened with that girl? And he said, she shot me down. She didn't just not love me. She introduced me to the guy that she was in love with. It was the worst day of my life. And I was very contrite. I said, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to ruin your life. And I said, no, no, no. I'm here because I wanted to tell you that I meant to get in touch and thank you. And I said, what are you, masochist? Why do you want to thank me? And he said, because that was the thing I was literally most afraid of in my life. And it happened. And I didn't die. I didn't die.

[B]

Did you break? No way. Like my mom said, yeah, right, exactly right.

[C]

I didn't. Look, I broke my horn, but I didn't break my life. This is the thing. It's so funny because all these things that you break through, you had to stand up to your embarrassment, stand up to your shame. My first day lecturing when I was a brand new professor, I was nervous and I had to give a three hour lecture in front of graduate students. This is hardcore. I was in Syracuse in those days. I just come to Syracuse very early on in my career, actually. I'm giving this three hour lecture and I'M noticing they're kind of laughing at my jokes and they're really all smiley and they were very, very, very pleasant. And I thought, why is it that they're so amused by everything? But it went really well. I was kind of patting myself on the back. I had been very nervous. And I walk out of the lecture hall, and I'm walking down the hall and I see one of my colleagues coming toward me and he starts laughing. And I said, what are you laughing at? And he said, your fly's down. Oh. I had just given a three hour first lecture and I was trying to impress them with my fly down and a little piece of my shirt coming out of the fly.

[A]

Oh, that's perfect comedy.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

That's flawless comedy when it does that little peak thing.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, that's.

[A]

Yeah, it's beautiful. Okay.

[C]

But that's the point. And the whole point was I wasn't nervous anymore for any lecture after that. Ever.

[A]

Yes. Got many HR complaints, though. They were like, I mean, we would like you to zip the fly up. And he's like, this is the new me.

[C]

Sorry, this is the new me.

[A]

Professor Fly.

[C]

I got to be me.

[A]

I found myself, baby.

[C]

That's my suspender.

[A]

But, but this is what I.

[C]

Face your pain, Face your fear, Face your suffering. Here.

[A]

Wait, wait, no, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let's. Let's do this step by step. Because I. Because I, you know, the thing I want to be careful of is you. You actually taught me this in many ways. But it's like sometimes when you speak to somebody who has mastered something or has a certain mastery of something, they can gloss through it and move through it in a way that sounds correct, but then sometimes doesn't connect with how people are hearing it. So let's take these things step by step. Because you study happiness, right? You know what I mean? And you've studied it for how long now?

[C]

I wrote my first book on happiness about 25 years ago.

[A]

Right. So you've really been in the game.

[C]

But I've been seven last seven years. Writing, speaking, and teaching full time. Nothing else.

[A]

So let's start with the core idea, because I think it's important for us to build from the ground up understanding you and understanding your work. The first thing I realized we needed to think about is what is happiness? Because every. Everyone says they want to be happy. America, the pursuit of happiness, which is

[C]

not the promise of happiness.

[A]

No, but the pursuits. You know what I mean? The pursuits. So I want to know from you, as somebody who studied it how do you define happiness?

[C]

So first, what is it not? It's not a feeling. The biggest mistake that we make is misunderstanding emotions. Most people think that happiness is a feeling, but happiness is a feeling kind of like the. Your Thanksgiving dinner is the smell of your turkey. It's not. The smell of the turkey is evidence of Thanksgiving dinner. And the feeling of happiness is evidence of actual happiness. Happiness has, like your Thanksgiving dinner, has three macronutrients, three constituent parts that you need to get really good at understanding and changing your habits around. Number one is enjoyment, which is not the same thing as pleasure. If you're pursuing pleasure, you're not going to find happiness. You're going to find rehabilitation. And it's very different. Understanding the difference between pleasure and enjoyment. Second is satisfaction, which is the joy that you get from an accomplishment after struggle. And the accomplishment is not more important than the struggle for satisfaction. And the third is meaning. That's what I'm doing most of my work on for now, years. Meaning the meaning of life. What is the why of your existence? You need to become an elite athlete and enjoying your life, taking satisfaction in your accomplishments and your achievements and understanding the why of your existence. Those are your three big jobs. And enjoy a happier person. That's what it comes to. And then a lot of the time you'll get the feeling of happiness. Not all the time, but that's not what you can rely on.

[A]

So happiness is the byproduct of the actions that you are taking.

[C]

Yeah. So the feeling of happiness is a byproduct. The happiness itself is the amount of enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning that you're experiencing in your life. Yeah, that's kind of like the amount of protein, carbohydrates and fat that you eat is the amount of food and calories that you're getting. That's what it comes down to. That's how to think about it. And each one of those things is really important. Some people, the good news is nobody's great across all of these things. I have tests that I give my students to find out in which macronutrient they need work. I know a lot of people who take tons of satisfaction in what they do because they have a lot of achievements and they've worked hard and they've struggled, but they don't know why they're doing it. They have a low sense of meaning. And I know a lot of really big executives, you know, hedge fund managers and private equity people, people make a

[A]

ton of dough, people that everyone like

[C]

sort of aspiring to and they don't enjoy their lives at all because they don't know how to enjoy.

[A]

And what are they. What are they lacking in those instances? So somebody step. Somebody comes into your world who says, professor Brooks, I. Man, I am. I'm nailing it. I'm satisfied in this realm. You know, I'm doing it. But, man, I just. I just don't feel good. What do you. What do you find they're missing? Or why is. Why is it so difficult to experience that happiness if they're missing meaning?

[C]

So if they're missing meaning, then there will be no reason for what they're doing. So meaning really has three. Meaning is the most. Is the heaviest, most philosophical part of it all, but it's the most important of these macronutrients. It's the protein. It's basically the protein of your happiness as you drive it. Yeah. So meaning is really a combination of being able to answer three questions. Why do things happen the way they do in life? That's coherence. And some people answer that with religion, and some people answer that with science. I'm both religious and a scientist. Both. Some people. Here's the funny thing, you know, people who follow a lot of conspiracy theories. That's very common today. Going down the rabbit hole. Are you a conspiracy theorist? Generally speaking.

[B]

Love your Batman voice, though. The best one I've heard yet. We had Mamdani trying. It was okay.

[A]

You rate the sword more?

[B]

Yeah, yeah. The Batman voice.

[C]

The Batman voice.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

The one conspiracy theorist. You're a conspiracy theorist.

[A]

It's not bad. It's actually not bad.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. That's like. I'm. I'm actually. I did. I'm. I'm auditioning to be the next Batman. I realize it's like. It's called Bald Batman.

[A]

No, you wear the. That's why.

[C]

I know, I know, but. I know, but the. But Bruce Wayne, he has a beautiful hair. Head of hair.

[A]

This is true.

[C]

I know. But not now. It's a new change. Yeah, but.

[A]

Okay, so. Yeah, so you're saying.

[C]

Okay, so conspiracy theorists. Conspiracy theorists are looking for coherence. They're looking for an answer to the question, why do things happen the way that they do? So when I meet somebody who's really down the rabbit hole of weird conspiracy theories, that is a dead giveaway that what they're looking for is coherence. Because they want meaning, because they want to get happier. That's where I'm going to actually work with that person. I'm going to work with that person in alternative Ways. And I'm not going to say you're an idiot. I'm not going to say that's not true. I'm not going to say, you know, go read the paper, for God's sake. I'm going to say let's work on different ways to understand why things happen the way that they do. I'm going to try to reconnect them with the faith of their youth. I'm going to try to get them really interested in science, you know, different nutritious ways to actually understand why things happen the way they do.

[A]

So it's not erasing their curiosity nor their need to find coherence, but it's finding a healthier balance of those ingredients.

[C]

It's a redirection, okay? It's a redirection towards something that will truly bring you a sense of coherence while not alienating you from, you know, the people that you're thankful. So that's number one element.

[A]

But while you're still on that, though, let's talk on that one element. Does that apply to everything? So can you meet somebody who for instance, is so religious that they're not having a good time in life, or can you meet somebody who is so science based that they're not having a good time in life? Or does it only apply to, like conspiracy?

[C]

Well, conspiracy theories tends to be kind of antisocial. And so if something that your sense of coherence is pulling you away from your love relationships, okay. Then that's militating against another one of the elements of meaning, which is significance. Significance is that your life matters to someone. Your life has to matter to someone.

[B]

No matter what's the significant other part?

[C]

It has to be your spouse, your kids, your parents, your friends, God. Wow. You need to be significant. And when you're doing something with your sense of coherence like conspiracy theories, that's ruining your relationships, then coherence goes up, a significance goes down, and you're defeating the purpose. Those are different elements that have to be in balance.

[B]

You become an expert in that subject, but alone in it.

[C]

And if you.

[B]

My mom said this a lot.

[C]

Nice. My mom said I gotta meet your mom. Because already your mom has made two appearances.

[B]

Yes. My mom used to say, if you love being right, you'll be right alone. It makes so, so much sense now.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You'll be certainly unmarried. It's a good way to stay a bachelor, too. Deep man. I've been married 34 years. I'm wrong a lot.

[A]

But I guess that's the foundation of all relationship, right is, in fact, all society. Funny enough, even if you just keep expanding on it, it becomes the like, how much do you care about being right?

[C]

I mean, that's the whole basis of our culture of contempt. That's the whole basis of the fact that we can't get along politically, that we have ideological wars. Cancel culture. All of it is this grievance about having to be right all the time as opposed to, huh, I wonder if somebody actually is saying something interesting to me. Inquiry is not about being right. Inquiry is about learning.

[A]

But the system isn't designed to reward.

[C]

Activism is about being right.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And so when you get the wrong balance of inquiry and activism, it turns the ship over.

[A]

Yeah. And that's why I'm saying the system is important, because what you just said about, like, our childhoods, right. Something forms you, Something shapes you.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And oftentimes, it's how the people around you responded to an action that you took.

[C]

Right?

[A]

Right. So now because of your suspenders, they respond to you a certain way. Because of the way you sing. You responded to. Because of the way I tripped, they responded to me a certain way. Because of the way you felt. People respond to you a certain way you respond. When we're living in a world where the systems themselves are rewarding people for one versus the other. You don't get rewarded for compassion online. Let's be honest. You don't.

[C]

It's an entirely different scale of reward that you get. You get rewarded, but you don't get the same scale of reward, the same intensity of reward, which is really, really important. You get a slow burn of what you're actually able to. You have a different kind of impact. You have to become, I guess, comfortable with the idea that you're not going to get the same intensity of reaction. And part of the reason for that, by the way, is the limbic system of the brain has more tissue dedicated to negative emotion than to positive emotion.

[A]

Why is that?

[C]

Because in the evolutionary environment, in a place to scene, you needed negative emotions more than you needed positive emotions. Negative emotions are an alarm.

[B]

Yeah. To avoid injury.

[C]

That. So fear, anger, disgust, and sadness. Those are the four negative emotions and all.

[B]

You're good, man.

[A]

He's a professor. He's a professor. I love the idea that Eugene would be in your class. Like, yo, this guy. Yo. Hey, my man. I think you're gonna ace this class. This guy. This guy in the front. By the way, I love your fly.

[C]

Keep it down.

[A]

Keep it.

[B]

Your horrible friend. Now he's yours. Arthur.

[C]

Perfect students who are big fans of yours. Like, I was there that day. I felt threatened, I felt unsafe.

[A]

Actually. Let's. By the way, let's. I'm going to hold that as. Let's keep moving. We're going back to it.

[C]

We're going down.

[A]

No, no, no, this is good.

[C]

This is like a nest thing to.

[A]

All of this is exactly what it is.

[C]

Like a matryushka Russian.

[B]

You feel that this is exactly.

[A]

Yes, but no, no, we'll hold that and we'll. Let's. So keep. Let's move.

[C]

Negative, the negative emotions. So the negative emotions exist because those are alarm systems for the things that can kill you. You know, you have sadness so that you will not be rejected by your kin. We're in the Pleistocene human, Homo sapiens lived in bands of 30 to 50 individuals.

[A]

Okay?

[C]

Kin based hierarchical bands of individuals. And The Pleistocene, starting 250,000 years ago was when we got the modern brain. Our brains are the same. And so all the weird stuff that we do today is because it was suitable to being in hierarchical kin based bands of 30 to 50 individuals. It explains almost everything. It explains how genders work together, it explains why we have envy, why we try to climb in hierarchies, why we want to be famous. All that stuff is actually explained by this. The Pleistocene brain is what it comes down to. But also that Pleistocene brain had a lot more space for the negative emotions. Positive emotions are nice to have negative emotions keep you alive. And so if you hear a little snap of a twig behind you, your first reaction is not, I bet that's my friend Trevor who's come to say hi. You know, like you run and ask questions later and, you know, you want to make sure that you're not going to be abandoned. You want to make sure you're not going to get killed. You want to make sure you don't ingest poison. That's what disgust is for. There's a beautiful little place in the limbic system called the insular cortex. And that little thing is your disgust mechanism. And that's all that kept you from ingesting poison. Before there was like vaccines and antibiotics,

[A]

it was just a signifier that this thing could kill you.

[C]

Yeah, that's why something that smells dead, something that smells rotten, that's why it disgusts you. And that's why your dog, who's very disgusting, by the way, that's why he licks the floor, because he is actually not going to be exposed to the same kind of pathogens because of, you know, The.

[A]

The.

[C]

The. The constituent parts of his saliva that can neutralize some of the germs that you can't. That's why he's like, that's not disgusting. And yet you think that's disgusting, and you tell your kids not to lick the floor. Anyway, I digress. The whole point is, thank God for negative emotions. They've kept you alive again and again and again and again.

[A]

But now you want to be in a place where your negative emotions are in control.

[C]

Well, you want to manage them so they don't manage you, because we're not in the place to sing. And that's why we have this great big prefrontal cortex, all this tissue behind the forehead, 30% of your brain by weight, that gives you consciousness, right? Your dog doesn't have consciousness. Your dog doesn't know it's alive. Your dog doesn't know it's going to die. Your dog doesn't have future ideas or past ideas. Your dog's just here now. That's why your dog's happier than you.

[B]

It can tell time.

[C]

Yes. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Because your dog.

[A]

It's why your dog is happier, because your dog's mindful.

[C]

Your dog is like you're thinking about, well, I got to do this thing. I hope my flight's on time tomorrow. And, you know, it's like, I got this thing. It's, oh, man, I haven't have a falling out with somebody I really care about. And what's going to happen next year? And what if the economy tanks and your golden retriever is like, I'm sitting here with Trevor.

[B]

You're remembering. Your dog is enjoying.

[C]

Your dog is here now. Here now. You're not. You're in the future.

[A]

So does that also mean that your dog can experience a lot more stress and pain? Because the now can last forever for it? Well, like, let's say your dog is experiencing an adverse experience, right? Is that thing lasting forever in its mind?

[C]

Well, the limbic system for the dog is pretty. The homo sapiens and canines, they actually evolved in parallel, okay? So they have very, very similar emotions. So when you think. When your dog looks at you with love. Do you have a dog?

[B]

No. I had one.

[C]

Yeah. And your dog looked at you with love, right?

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[C]

Your dog was feeling love. Your dog actually gets oxytocin, which is a neuropeptide in the brain, the bonding hormone, the sense of love that you get when you look at your kids and your friends and your. Your. Your beloved. Your dog looks at you and you stroke the dog and give your dog eye contact, he gets a 56% bump in oxytocin, just like you, your cat. 12%.

[A]

I knew it. Assholes. I always say this.

[C]

Your dog loves you. Your cat.

[A]

We shouldn't even say your cat.

[C]

You should say the cat.

[A]

Hey, let's say the cat you live with. Please, let's stop perpetuating this myth. It is not your cat. It is a cat that lives at

[C]

your house eating, eating your food.

[A]

Those things do not. That is not your cat. There are a few cats that are exceptions. I know some cat owners will be like, my cat's nice, that's your cat. It's an outlier. Most cats, they're not your cats.

[C]

Cats are takers, my man. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, we digress again. So that's so bad. You know, negative emotion is really, really interesting and useful is the whole point about that. Where were we? We're talking about meaning.

[A]

Meaning was the thing which.

[C]

Coherence and significance. Yes, but there's one more. Yeah, the most important one. Purpose. Purpose. So everybody thinks meaning and purpose are the same. They're not. They're not the same. Purpose is a sub component of meaning. That's your goals and direction and sense of what you're doing with your life. It's the answer to the question, why am I doing what I'm doing?

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And if you don't know the answer to the question, why am I doing what I'm doing? You're not going to have meaning and you're not going to be happy. That's why if you have kids, one of the most important ways to actually motivate them to do things with more joy is to give them a sense of purpose, which is goals and direction for a better future.

[A]

Give me an example of that. At like different age levels for a parent, for instance. So let's say it's a 5 year old, a 15 year old and a 25 year old.

[C]

So a 5 year old is the way that you motivate. A 5 year old is that you say, if you're a good little boy, Santa Claus is going to bring you some nice presents. You're motivating them to behave in a particular way, happily, because that's their kind of little kid. Purpose is getting the Christmas morning and getting a bunch of stuff under the tree. You get a little bit older, it's like get good grades in school, you're going to get to go to a good university and you're going to have a better life when you Get a little bit older in life, it's going to be if you actually behave in a particular way, you're going to meet the love of your life and that's really going to complete you.

[A]

So it's always reward based.

[C]

It's always reward or we just like reward. It's kind of goal based. It's kind of getting to a particular goal and making progress toward the goal. So how we're really wired, which is really interesting, we think that what we really want is the reward. What we really want is progress toward the reward. And if we think that we're going to be in bliss when we get to the reward, we suffer from a syndrome called arrival fallacy. It's a funny thing. It's very common that Olympic athletes who win the gold suffer a clinical depression in the two, two months after they win the gold because they've been suffering, suffering and suffering. And they think that all this progress, which was awesome, is actually going to lead to permanent bliss when they win the gold. And it's just another day. They go back to their hotel, they're

[B]

like, you know, look at the thing around their neck.

[C]

Yeah. With the thing around their neck. And it's just another day. And they're looking at the rest of their lives when they're no longer winning Olympic gold medals. And it's very, very depressing. So this is a funny thing about dieting is another example of this. All diets will make you lose weight. I mean, except for the all candy corn diet or something, right. I mean, it's like any sensible diet. You can cut fat, you can cut carbs, you can cut. Right. You'll lose weight. And it's awesome if you're trying to lose weight because the scale goes down. It's a reward every single day in progress toward the goal. But what's the reward when you actually hit your target weight and that's never getting to eat what you like ever again for the rest of your life. Congratulations. Damn. That's why diets don't work. They got about an 80% failure rate. And 30% of people who go on strong diets and hit their goal, developing eating disorder because they want to keep making progress. Because progress is everything in life.

[A]

We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. You know, Eugene, one of the things I've always loved about food is you can travel without going anywhere. Some people book flights, I just walk into Whole Foods Market. Whole Foods Market is your go to destination for a flavor tour inspired by regions across the world. Like, one minute I'm thinking about making dinner. The next thing I know, I'm in Italy because I picked up the cecco pasta and Rao's sauce, the checo pasta. Then I see siete tortillas. San Pellegrino. Now we're in Mexico with sparkling water. Confidence.

[B]

Siete tortillas.

[A]

And if you don't feel like cooking well, the prepared foods department at Whole Foods Market makes dinner time so easy. Empanadas, burritos, soups, lunch or dinner. Solved. You just follow the yellow signs and suddenly you're on a flavor tour without leaving your postcode.

[B]

Burritos.

[A]

Exactly. If you want snacks. Plantain tostones, Peruvian potato chips. Filo's walking tamales. You're basically touring Latin America through crunch alone.

[B]

Damales.

[A]

And don't forget desserts, because every good trip ends with something sweet like tres leches cake. Expand your horizons without expanding your luggage.

[B]

Tres leches.

[A]

If you need a weeknight shortcut, you could also head into aisles for $3.65 by Whole Foods Market. Rice, beans, chunky salsas, instant taco nights, tacos. Or check the frozen aisle for 365 brand taquitos at low prices. Dinner handled.

[C]

Taquitos.

[A]

What are you doing, dude? I'm trying to do an ad.

[B]

I can speak Spanish now.

[A]

What do you mean you think you can? You're just saying the words that I said.

[B]

I said everything in Spanish.

[A]

I mean, the words are already in Spanish.

[B]

I commit taquitos.

[A]

Save on regional flavors at Whole Foods Markets.

[B]

Taquitos.

[A]

This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. Imagine this. You're at a checkout counter. You're ready to pay when you realize you don't have your wallet. Dun, dun, dun. You could drive all the way back home and you could get it. But you remember that you have your Apple card on your iPhone so you can tap to pay with Apple Pay. Imagine that. No need to carry a wallet. But, you know, one of the things I do like about having my card on my phone is we live in a world where you lose your card and then you don't know where it is. And then you're like, what do I do? Well, if your phone is connected to your card and your card is connected to your phone, you know what's going on. The best thing about having the Apple card connected to your phone is you know what every transaction is. You know, like, sometimes you're like, what did I spend this month? The Apple card will show you one month. I had spent an obscene amount of money Ordering videos online.

[B]

Just videos?

[A]

They were just videos.

[B]

What kind of videos?

[A]

That's not the point. The point is I knew that I didn't want to order those videos anymore because I'd spent too much money on was videos on how to not spend money online.

[B]

I felt like I'd been duped.

[A]

Point is, Apple showed me what I was spending my money on and I was able to change my spending habits. And you can do it too. I earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase with my Apple card. That's unlimited daily cash back no matter where I shop. Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app on your iPhone subject to credit approval. Apple card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch terms and more at applecard.com Security usually means extra steps and complications. But with Apple pay secure payments are simple. Your transactions are authenticated with face id, touch ID or passcode. So security is built in when you check out. Plus, your name isn't shared with merchants and they don't see your actual card number. Whether you're shopping in store, online or in app, protecting your money should be simple. Pay the Apple way. Terms apply. I think about like the conversations I have with my younger brother are always fascinating to me because of how he sees the world. He's one of the smartest people I know. And I always tell him at his age, he's way smarter than I ever was. Maybe even now, you know. But we, we have this conversation about video games. And I said to him, there's a, there's a video online that, that I really loved. And it was some kid who made this video said how you play video games is how you live your life, right? And I was so intrigued by this because he did this whole breakdown. He said some people play video games to finish the video game. They get in, they try and finish the story as quickly as possible, get to the end, save the princess, you know, end the story. Thank you very much. He said some people play video games and then get bored and quit. Some people all. Everyone has different methods. But he said, but you can learn a lot about yourself because playing a video game, especially in today's games, like a simulation of how you are. And I realized for myself and I realized for what a good game is. Great games are the ones that make you feel like you're trying to finish the game, but constantly trick you into doing things along the way. The side quests that make you feel like you're actually trying to get to the end, but you get so swept up in These mini moments along the way that you enjoy the game itself.

[C]

Cause it's the progress.

[A]

But those are the great things.

[C]

It's the journey.

[A]

Yeah, they do it for you.

[B]

But I've realized they do say it like that. It's progress.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Get progress points.

[A]

They literally write progress. But I've noticed in the games where they don't do that for you, if you're not careful, you can. And I'd love you to speak to this like beyond gaming. But it's like if they don't do it for you, there's some games where you can literally just go straight to the end as quickly as possible and be done. And I find you can be very depressed, as you say you get. Then you're like, ah, I don't know about this.

[C]

I don't like this game.

[A]

This was it, you know, and it was too hard, by the way, because you didn't like level up the way you should have or this the inverse. Whereas you spend so much time in the side quests that you don't move towards progress because nothing's pushing you, nothing's propelling you. You know what I mean? And then what happens is you quit the game, right? So you play like 40% of the game. You do everything around getting to the end. But then you don't get to the end. Cause the game didn't. It's. I forget what they call it. But essentially some games will dole it out in the right amount. You're moving forward now. You're moving sideways, sideways, sideways, moving forward, sideways. Some go do whatever you want. And it's interesting how that flips. And I wondered how that applies to life in what you're saying to.

[C]

Almost everything is like this. People who, who truly are all about enjoying the journey, they enjoy their lives because they understand that life is all about making progress toward particular moral goals. People who are all about actually getting to the end. So what's the best predictor of having a crummy marriage is having a destination wedding. Why? Because your wedding isn't a destination. Your wedding is just the beginning of a journey. Destination wedding. Destination. My destination is actually you're beginning something with the end. Locking that person down forever. No, there's no, there's no destination in your wedding. Elope. Justice of the peace. I'm Catholic. Don't do that. We're Catholics. We don't do that. Priest. Go to a priest. Go to a priest. Go to a priest. Go to priest.

[B]

That'll be thy name.

[C]

There you go. I wanted it in Zulu. Oh, yeah. No Zulu. Because, you know, my grandparents didn't lose it. One of the Zulu.

[A]

This man is 10 months Zulu.

[C]

You don't forget that epigenetic expression. Expression. You know, it's gonna come out. So this is really important, right? You gotta see your wedding day as a step in progress toward the eternal bliss that actually comes from a relationship. Your soulmate with whom you can actually experience the divine and on whose face you'll be gazing as you take your dying breath. That's marriage.

[B]

That's poetry.

[C]

Marriage isn't wedding day.

[A]

So then, do you. Do you think the worst thing we've done. And I'm not trying to incept you. Cause this is what I think. But I'll tell you what I think, and you tell me if you agree. I've often thought one of the worst things that happened to society was a series of movies. Whether it was kids movies or adult movies, Rom coms. But that were happily ever after. Like, they. They ended at the moment where the people met. And I always wondered what that did to people's brains growing up in a world where they went like, oh, if you meet the person you love, that's the end. And then it's like, this is it.

[C]

Like, that's right.

[A]

What is that?

[B]

That is the same idea as.

[A]

Well, I never finished Pac man was.

[B]

They meet and then.

[A]

Yeah, but I never. I've never seen the end of Pac Man. Yeah, I saw Junior Pac man, so I know what they did, but I don't know. Yeah, Junior Pacman, Junior Pacman. There was Junior Pac Man.

[B]

Junior Pacman.

[A]

Yeah, Junior Pacman. Maybe, baby, like a tiny little Pacman had a little bow and then the biggity bitty, but like a tiny little Pacman.

[B]

So as a girl Pacman.

[A]

Yeah, there was a boy and a girl and a boy. No, there was Ms. Pac man, but then there was also Jr. Pac Man.

[C]

Jr. Pac Man.

[A]

Yeah. No, no, they.

[C]

The whole family.

[A]

Yeah, Pac man had.

[C]

I like, these family values in video games like this.

[A]

Yeah. No, Pac man did it, bro.

[B]

I was like, okay, yeah, Mario and Luigi did it.

[A]

Well, they were brothers mixing up the story.

[B]

Yeah, they were family members.

[A]

Oh, yeah, they were.

[C]

They were my kids. My kids are. You know, they'd be. They'd be like, what are these guys? Pac Man. What are they talking about?

[A]

Okay, Elden ring. Fine, we'll bring in Elden Ring. Super Mario, Call of Duty. We'll go with. We got every game covered here. You. You tell us the generation and we've got you.

[C]

We've got you.

[A]

We got you. It doesn't matter what it is. But, but help. Help us.

[C]

Like, yeah, this is a problem. Heavily ever after actually gives you distorted understanding of what brings happiness in life. It's the journey. It's. The journey is that. It's, it's walking into the future together with your beloved. It's actually the, the, the, the, the process of actually Lewis and Clark looking for and going down the Missouri river as they're going towards the Pacific Ocean. It's not the Pacific Ocean. You just have to have.

[A]

There's a.

[C]

There's a really great word in Spanish that's a metaphoric word. It's a sailing word. It's called rumbo.

[A]

Rumbo. Rumbo. El rumbo. El rumbo.

[C]

El rumbo is the, the word in English is rum. Line. R, H, M. Line. I know, but it's not a metaphor that we use typically. That is the, the, the. The destination. That's a Euclidean straight line from here to there. It's like the piece of yarn with a pin, right?

[A]

Flying like. What do they call it? Straight as the crow flies.

[C]

As the crow flies.

[A]

As the crow flies.

[C]

Crow flies. Exactly. Right. So. And that's an important concept because you say, I want my life to have el rumo. I want. Yo quiero que mi vida tengo un rumbo. I'm going to stay in Spanish, right? And what that means basically is I want to have a destination. I want to have something that is the arrival so that I can make progress. The point is not that you're going to be on this line the whole time. The point is that you gotta, you have to have it, but because you can make, you can't make the journey without it. Otherwise you're gonna be like a. You know, so depressing about cruises. There's a cruise ship. I don't want that. I don't want to get in a boat and just go in circles. Okay. Because that doesn't feel like you're making progress.

[A]

Oh, now you're a Roomba. Very different.

[C]

Nice. Not going in one straight line like the vacuum cleaner.

[A]

Right? Yes. That little, that little. Have you seen how that thing moves? You don't want your life like that.

[C]

Didn't they just go bankrupt? Didn't the company go back?

[A]

I wouldn't be shocked. Because, I mean, have you seen that?

[B]

These kind of reviews.

[A]

I mean, no wonder. Cause it, it's a.

[C]

It's a metaphor of unhappiness. So what do you want?

[B]

So that's.

[A]

So that's interesting.

[B]

You You.

[A]

You want to be in a place where. I mean, this is. This requires a total rewiring of the brain. Like how I. I even think about myself. I. I don't know how you think about it for yourself, but I. I think a lot of people would relate to this idea of going, wait, wait, wait, wait. But Professor Brooks, I've been told. Get the job and then life rides.

[B]

Look, get the grades.

[A]

Get the grades, and then I'm gonna get the job. The grades is the job.

[B]

Get the house.

[A]

Get the job. You're gonna be. Then you get the house. You're gonna be happy. Get the person in the house with, good.

[C]

You get the marriage. You get the marriage. Guys even say, if you marry me, you'll make me happy for the rest of my life. That's what they say. And I got. Look, I got data on that. No, it doesn't matter what you say on your wedding day. It matters what you say every day after that.

[A]

So what should you say to somebody? Not if you marry me, then let's

[C]

go on a journey together. Help complete me. Because together we'll wire our batteries. Together we'll create an antenna to God.

[B]

Yeah, teach me something that's.

[A]

Let's work, beautiful.

[C]

Let's. Let's walk through life together. Yeah, let's walk. I want to walk through life together.

[A]

Damn. That's different.

[C]

Yeah, it's a completely different perspective, but it actually makes perfect sense. And people kind of know that that's the case. And if you don't do that, by the way, there's an easy neurobiology on why this happens. We think that if we get that thing, that burst of positive emotion. There's this funny little part of the brain called the ventral tegmental area. When you tap it, it gives you this sense of euphoria. And so you can get it from your girlfriend says, I love you, or you can get it from a huge bump of cocaine. We have very thrifty brains.

[A]

It's the same part of it. What, a broad spectrum?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, totally. Like. And it gives you the sense of immediate ebullience, joy. Right. And we think we get that thing that we really, really want, that the ventral tegmental area is going to get tapped over and over and over again. But let me tell you, if you do something that taps your ventral tegmental area continuously, you're going to wind up in rehab.

[B]

You're on drugs. Yep.

[C]

You're an addict. I mean, that's exactly that.

[A]

So is that because we weren't designed to have the ventral tegmental tapped that many times.

[C]

We're not designed to feel emotion continuously. Remember, emotions are an alarm that there's something good for you or something bad for you that you should approach or avoid. The reptilian part of your brain in the back of your head is sensing stuff. Sensing stuff. Sensing stuff that sends data to the limbic system, which is between 2 and 40 million years old. It predates Homo sapiens, and that's what creates emotions. Emotions are reactions, a universal language to you that there's something out there, that there's a threat or an opportunity, and the opportunities give you positive emotion and the threats out there give you negative emotion, and they clear really quickly so you're ready for the next thing.

[A]

So should we be in nothing states?

[C]

No, no, no, no. We should actually say understand our emotions, not chase them as if we're going to keep them forever. For example, if you're looking for continuous positive emotion on the basis of what you have or experience, you get on what we call the hedonic treadmill. Ah, yes, you've heard about it.

[A]

Hedonic adaptation.

[C]

Yeah, hedonic adaptation, which is basically, I get the, I get the, you know, the person that I love, I get the money, I get the millionth Instagram followers, whatever my thing is. And you're just running, running, running, running, running. And that treadmill starts speeding up until it's going with terrifying speed, and then you're afraid to step off it because you're going to face plant if you try to step off a speeding treadmill. And that's no way to live. And you're hedonically adapting, which is called homeostasis, where the brain is adapting emotionally back to the baseline state so you're ready for the next set of circumstances.

[A]

One of the best pieces of advice I ever received in my life came from my best friend's dad when we were still in school and they had grown to do well for themselves. They didn't, you know, he didn't grow up doing well. And so he had a nice car, they had a very decent house, but it wasn't like super wealthy, it wasn't a mansion or anything. But I remember speaking to him once and I said, I asked him, I was like, yo, Babinzele, can I ask you a question? How much money do I need to earn to be, like, happy and, and to be set and to be good?

[C]

What did he tell you?

[A]

And he said to me, he said, yes, Trevor. He said, can I tell you something? He said, I know some People. And this was, I mean now, 20 years ago, he said, I know some people who earn. And he said like, he said, I know some people who earn 5,000 rand a month. 500, let's say, or 250, whatever. And he's like, and I know some people who earn 50,000 rand a month. I was like, 50,000 rand a month? That's impossible. No one can earn that kind of money. And he's like, no. He said, let me tell you now. Said, I know more of my friends who earn the 5,10,000 rand a month who are happy than I do the ones who earn the 50,000, he said, because with them, they spend that money and more every month, then get depressed that they only have it and then they try and move it to 60, then they spend 60, then they move it to 70, then they spend 70. Then he said, I've watched them move up that ladder. And he said, he genuinely. And I'm like 16 years old. And he said to me, I know it seems like a myth, but there is no number. He said, I've seen everyone in my life. He said, there just, there is no number. And I was like, I just, I can't believe anyone wouldn't be happy with 50,000 rand a month. My brain was like, that's not possible.

[C]

And the same thing is true with power and the same thing is true with pleasure. And the same thing is true with fame. Fame is the worst, by the way. Fame is the only one of life's rewards that you can only ever be happy in spite of. Never because of. But you want to be famous. Everybody wants to be famous because fame is rising in the hierarchy of your band of 30 to 50 individuals where more people are thinking about you than you're thinking about because you'll get more. You're more likely to survive, get your caloric needs met and get lots of mates. The trouble is that we can't accommodate that tendency to a world in which we can actually be famous in front of millions of people. That will make you literally insane. It will make you literally insane. Unless you're very, very self governing. Unless you're really self managing. And you know tons of people in show business. Yeah. That are pretty nuts. They're pretty nuts because they're on this treadmill of more and more and more and I can't have enough. It's like drinking seawater. The more that I drink, the thirstier

[A]

I get, the more dehydrated they get.

[C]

Exactly right.

[A]

It's, it's, it's also, it Also does this thing to you where, you know, when you think about, like, the fame of it all and how powerful it is, I've often thought one of the most genius things that Tick Tock did that I don't think any other social media platform ever did. But I. I watch it on Tick Tock. Tick Tock allows everyone to go viral. If you look at old social media, there was sort of like the hierarchy that existed in old media, moved into it. So on Instagram, it was still like, oh, the most video. The most. Watch the Kardashians. And there's this actor and this is. You know what I mean? Was very difficult to just be random. Random, right. And have. No, no, no. TikTok go to People's accounts. Watch how this one video almost everyone has, that is an outlier, that's a blip in their world. And then watch how their usage and posting exponentially jumps off the left.

[C]

This is Vegas. It works. It works the brain in the same way. So Las Vegas. Yeah. So the way to get rich is to work really hard and get a good education and be responsible and show up and create value and create some more value. And then dot, dot, dot, 30 or 40 years later, you got a bunch of money or go to a casino and get. And get a hit. And so the result is. I want the easy way. Yeah, right. Roulette. That's TikTok. That's how the algorithm works. I'm going to get a hit. I'm going to hit fast.

[B]

Because you want the videos get more and more extreme.

[A]

Yo, mom. And they give you one. And I've watched people never been on TikTok. I've watched people, like, so crazy. This is the random thing. Thank God for me. My friend signed up to TikTok for me. When it first came out, I. I was like, I can't keep up anymore. And he was like, no, no, no, I'll just do it for you because you don't want to lose your account. It's gonna be the biggest thing. He was right. And because. Because he was on it for me. He was just using it and he lived in, like, West Virginia and all the content was to him. And so till this day, our algorithm. The algorithm is not, like, completely correct and it didn't hook me.

[C]

Right?

[A]

So I, I get to enjoy Tick Tock as a pop. But I've been bystander. I've literally never been on Tick Tock for more than. More than 6 minutes, 7 minutes. I deleted them because of that.

[C]

Ah, yeah. Because it hooked You.

[A]

So I had to put as many.

[C]

Which one.

[A]

Which inconveniences any of them Could Twitter. Twitter could get me like all day, every day.

[C]

Really?

[A]

Twitter?

[C]

No, no, no, no. Twitter news. News from here.

[A]

Information, Information.

[C]

Did you know this about that?

[A]

Did you know that any information. It's got you.

[C]

And then Instagram.

[A]

Ah, got you, got you, got you. It doesn't matter what got. Got you, got you, got you.

[C]

Took the apps off your phone.

[A]

Yeah, I deleted them. And then now what I do is I log in on a browser, which is painful.

[C]

Right.

[A]

It doesn't render correctly. The images are off. Sometimes it doesn't load. Just that. That block.

[C]

You're trying to actually increase the transaction cost.

[A]

Yeah, that's. That's all I do, genuinely, because I. I don't. I don't believe. I've tried many times to go like, I can handle this. I even put a block on my phone. Five, like 10 minutes, 20 minutes. I was like, I got this. And then my phone will be like, you've reached your limit. And I shut up, phone.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And I'll just go back in.

[C]

One good way to do this, by the way, is put your phone on black and white because it'll actually make your brain work differently as you interact with social media.

[A]

Like you. When you change the color scale. Grayscale on the phone.

[C]

Grayscale on the phone.

[B]

That actually works.

[C]

You'll be significantly less addicted. That actually.

[A]

Wait, how does that work?

[C]

So it's basically like drinking 3, 2 beer.

[A]

I don't know what that means.

[C]

That means 3.2% alcohol.

[A]

Oh, okay. Got it.

[C]

Right. And you'll be like bloated and peeing and. And you'll be like, I'm going to stop drinking beer. It just doesn't have enough alcohol in it, too.

[A]

And so it'll keep you buzzing.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. To keep you buzzing, you have to do something that's way beyond your level of boredom. And so my oldest son, for example, has. I mean, my two. I have three kids, 27, 25 and 22. My 25 and 22 year old. They're in there in the military.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So, no, I mean, they're not. They're not active on social media. They can't be. My oldest son, he figured out that it wasn't gonna be good for his life, so he put Tommy. Marines. I'm saying I got two marines.

[B]

That was not gonna be good for his life. Social media or the military? No.

[C]

Oh, no, no, no. My oldest son, who isn't in the military, he Put grayscale on his phone for social media a long time ago. And he's never been addicted. He's never been addicted.

[A]

What is that doing to the brain? Explain that.

[C]

So there's a. Your brain interacts with, visually with social media and the stimuli with social media in a lot of ways. So anything that you get addicted to is involving dopamine. You know, dopamine is the. Is the neuromodulator of liking, learning, wanting, craving. And we have it because we need to learn. We need to be more effective as a species. So when something comes along, you get a real reward from it. It's like. And the next time you think about it, you get a minor reward which will send you in search of doing that thing again. But if it's just like it was the day before, it's not going to be as much. And you want to get a little bit more spritz of dopamine from the locus coeruleus in your brain. So you got to get more of it. Fuel injectors to the engine is how this works, right? Yeah. And the stimulus, the more visually stimulating something actually is more beautiful. The more animated it is, the more that it looks kind of like real life.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

The more dopamine you get is what it comes down to. So my son, my oldest son, very wise, he just gets less dopamine from this thing. And since he's getting less dopamine from it, it's less rewarding. And so he does it less.

[B]

He's drinking.

[A]

Were you always happy?

[C]

I'm not happy at all. Oh, that's why I study happiness.

[A]

Oh, there we go, folks. Now we get into the crux of it. Yeah.

[C]

No, no, I'm much happier than I used to be because I study it. Because.

[A]

What were you like before? Well, I mean, like, where do we meet you now in life? And where were you before?

[C]

So I. I left. I did a lot of different things in my career as a professional classical musician. I was a academic. I. I ran a company for a long time. I was a CEO for a long time. And I left and came back to academia because I wasn't happy. And I realized I needed to go back to my roots as a behavioral scientist because I needed to sort some stuff out.

[A]

Help me understand. What made you realize you weren't happy? What were you not happy about? How did you know you were unhappy?

[C]

What were you experiencing from day to day? My life felt gray. And I didn't feel like I was making progress toward any metaphysical goals. I felt like, my relationships were suffering. I had a lot of sort of anhedonia, which is another way of saying that I didn't really feel very much pleasure. And nothing delighted me. You know, nothing delighted me and my wife, who's been with me for decades.

[A]

Yeah, 34 years, you said.

[C]

Yeah. And she said, why don't you use your PhD for something useful?

[A]

Hilarious. That's a good part of it.

[C]

And I said, like what? And she said, study yourself. You know, Heal thyself. And so. And so I actually, I went on. I'm on a pilgrimage. I retired. I mean, I just stepped away, quit my job.

[A]

How old were you at the time? 55. Okay.

[C]

And I'd been running this think tank, this big nonprofit think tank in Washington, D.C. for almost 11 years. Great job. Great job. But I was. It had nothing to do with the job, but I was just empty, man. I was spent. Part of it was that I was. You know, I didn't sleep very well, and I was. I was working all the time, and I worked 80 hours a week. I missed a lot of my childhood, and I was unhappy. And so I did a pilgrimage, which I recommend to everybody, by the way, when you don't know what to do, go for a really long walk.

[B]

I did that.

[C]

Did you?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Which one? You walked for a year? No, no, no.

[B]

He just went away.

[A]

He just disappeared from where we all knew him.

[B]

Stopped social media, stopped work, went and

[A]

lived by the beach, was just gone from everyone's lives.

[C]

I recommend.

[B]

Decision I've ever made.

[C]

Yeah. So I walked the Camino de Santiago, which is across northern Spain.

[A]

Oh, you did, like, the actual pilgrimage? Like, walk, walk, pilgrimage?

[C]

Yeah. That's what Catholics have been doing for 1,100 years.

[A]

How long is this walk?

[C]

It depends on how long you do. I wanted to do the whole 33 days, which is 800K.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And my wife's like, no. So we did what she was able to. What was willing to put up with, which was the last 160km.

[A]

Oh, that's a lot to put up with.

[C]

A lot of blisters, you know? And you walk yourself into a vulnerable state. You walk yourself into weakness. You got to be weak if you're going to find the truth. I mean, that's why St. Paul said, when I'm weak, then I'm strong. You can't connect with anybody. We started this whole conversation talking about embarrassment, shame, suffering. Only then, I mean, it's like, here's the thing. You guys told these stories, and this is when the audience is like, I'm like Eugene and Trevor because that's how people actually connect with you. And that's how you connect with yourself, is by beating yourself down, then when the aperture is open, to actually find the truth. And so I had a complete. By the end of the walk, I had a completely new life mission, which was I was going to spend the rest of my life lifting people up and bringing them together in bonds of happiness and love, using science and ideas.

[B]

Do you have a memory of what your thoughts were in the first few miles versus the last few miles?

[C]

The first few miles were, you know, my feet hurt. This is boring. It's too hot. What am I doing? Maybe this was a mistake. And only when I walked myself into a kind of a submission to it, when I beat myself into a kind of a submission, which is what a pilgrimage is all about. And life is a pilgrimage. It's also a metaphor. You know, you enter into Santiago de Compostela, which is this city in northern Spain, where you end up at the cathedral, which is this medieval cathedral where St. James, the brother of St. John, is where his remains are. And that's where you're supposed to get this sort of sacred knowledge. But that's a metaphor for heaven, because that's what life is supposed to be for anybody in Abrahamic religions, for sure, and many of the karmic religions as well, is the whole idea is being reunited with Godhead, being reunited with the divine. See, here's the thing. For a lot of religious people, evidence of the divine is that you crave the divine and can't get it on Earth. That's evidence of heaven is that you really believe that there's heaven, but you can't get it on Earth. And the harder you try, the further away you get from.

[B]

And the day you see it, you won't be able to tell anyone about it.

[C]

And then, just for you, because you

[B]

can't die and go to heaven and come back again and say it was nice.

[C]

And that's the metaphor of this, of this, of this. I'm walking to the cathedral. I'm walking to the cathedral. I'm walking to the cathedral. And when you actually put. People have been saying for a thousand years that they're blessed with sacred knowledge.

[A]

And so what were some of your thoughts towards the end of it now as you.

[C]

It was becoming clearer. It was becoming clearer. It's like the clouds were lifting a little bit. And, and.

[A]

And was your wife on the walk with you?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Did her life change? Because it doesn't sound like she was on the same quote unquote journey that you were. She seems like she was a little bit more clear.

[C]

She's an adroit. She's an adept. She's a spiritual adept.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

So yeah, for sure, for sure. And. And she didn't have the same issues. I mean, my wife, like so. So the way that you measure happiness with self evaluated happiness is called Cantrell Ladder 1 to 10 or 0 to 10, where 0 is the unhappiest person you've ever met, the worst SOB, the person who's just miserable.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And 10 is this annoyingly happy person that you know. Right.

[A]

Joseph. Opioids.

[C]

And your number is, all things considered, at this point in your life where you've more or less. Not right now because you slept poorly last night or you got a fight with your girlfriend, it's more or less in your life what your number is. That's incredibly stable and accurate, it turns out. And my wife's a nine. And I was always like a three and a half.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. And I was doing, you know, all my work. I was doing all kinds of cool, kind of interesting things and trying to create value and succeeding in my career and the whole thing. And my wife said, why did you become a behavioral scientist? Why? And I said, well, I want to, I guess, make life better for other people. Start with you. Start with yourself because you're not going to lift other people up unless you actually start to get your mind around this. And so that was that. That was it. I did a pilgrimage and. And then I left my old work. And this is what I do now. Look, we get to talk about this in front of millions of people.

[A]

Yeah, but I'm fascinated by how you came to that conclusion. And I'll tell you why. I've met many men who have been CEOs and have run companies and have been in powerful positions. And oftentimes when they hit that brick wall, oftentimes when their world turns gray, they don't turn to something that's more spiritually fulfilling. They just search to more.

[C]

Right.

[A]

You know, they turn to more. They go, maybe I should merge my company. Maybe I need to buy a bigger company. Maybe I need to find. So I want to know what it was that you bumped into. And maybe it was just your wife telling you, but like, what was it that made you go, oh no, this hedonic treadmill is not taking me anywhere.

[C]

So it was a realization that I guess I can explain best with a metaphor, which is that I Used to go to Taiwan a lot for work, for when I was running this think tank.

[A]

Is the food as good as they say?

[C]

The food's great. Okay, yeah, food's great. I mean, the people are awesome. Every single person you get, like a taxi driver gives you the business card and it says CEO. Because everybody's a CEO.

[A]

I love it.

[C]

Oh, it's really entrepreneurial. It's phenomenal. But every time I would go, politicians and leaders and CEOs would tell me, every time I was in Taiwan, before you leave, you got to go see the National Palace Museum, which is the world's greatest collection of Chinese art and artifacts in the world. It was spirited across the Taiwan Straits during the Revolution, and. And it would take you weeks to see the entire collection. You can't see the whole thing. And I never had time. And I know perfectly, I've been in a lot of museums in my life, that if you've only got an hour, then you're going to. The only thing you remember is the snack bar.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

The gift shop. Breeze through it, exit through the gift shop. Right. So finally, I knew this was never going to happen unless I took matters into my own hands. And I hired a guide. I had two hours and I hired a guide and I said, here's what I want you to do. I want you to teach me in depth about 10 things in this museum. 10 things. I promise I'm going someplace with this.

[A]

No, no. What do you mean?

[C]

I'm with you. Ten things. And I want to know the history and the providence and the philosophy, and I want to know about the artist. And this is stuff from 8,000 years ago until the present. And it was phenomenal. So I'm standing in front of this 2 ton block of jade that had been carved into a Chinese village. And I said, even if I had never left the United States, just looking at this, I would say, this looks Chinese, right? Why does this look Chinese? And he said, that's because of the philosophy of art in China. I said, oh, tell me more. And he answered my question with a question. It was very Eastern. He said, when you as a Westerner think of a work of art yet to be started, what image pops into your head? And I said, an empty canvas. Yeah, right.

[B]

Yeah, painting.

[C]

He said, that's because you think of things as starting from nothing and through your own initiative, coming into existence. He said, okay. He said, I think about a work of art not being started as an uncut boulder of jade where the sculpture is inside it. And I have to take Everything away until I find it. And he said, and now here's the important part. He said, that's also the difference in philosophy between east and west about life, about success. He says, you Westerners, you think that if you're going to have enough, add more, add more, add more, add more, add more, then it's going to be perfect. But by the time you're 45 years old, if you. If you're remotely successful, more brush strokes means a denser, darker canvas. And it's not getting better, it's getting uglier, but you think more paint, more paint. You're sloshing paint on, you're getting a boat at 75 or whatever, and you're not getting happier. He said, we understand that the job on your last day is to chip away the last piece of jade when it's perfect. And that means that we chip away, we take away, we're subtracting. He said, that's the difference. And I thought, ah. That's what I was thinking about on that Camino. That's what I was thinking about that Camino. What do I need to chip away? I've been adding brushstrokes and adding brushstrokes, and my canvas is not getting more beautiful. I need a different metaphor.

[B]

It's about sharing and giving.

[C]

So what do I need to do? I need chip away. So I started chipping away. Started chipping away.

[B]

It's about giving and not taking.

[C]

Yeah, it is, you know, thinking. And now I don't have a bucket list on my birthday. I have a reverse bucket list. My birthday. Like, what is. Am I going to stop doing this year? What are the relationships that don't serve me? What are the possessions that are.

[A]

I love that you're getting. You're taking things out of the bucket. Totally throwing.

[C]

Totally reverse bucket list. Like, you know, my last birthday, you know, actually my. My. On my 60th birthday, which is in 2024, right? It was in the middle of an election year, and I was like, what do I need to chip away? And you know what it was? It was my political opinions. I needed more political opinions because I needed fewer political opinions because I need more friends, right? And I was adjudicating friendships on the basis of my political opinions. A lot of people are like, no, no. And so I wrote down my strongest eight political opinions, and I crossed them out. Not because I think they're wrong. They might be wrong for sure. I believe things that are wrong, but I'm not gonna know which until I'm hanging out with people who disagree with me as friends. It changed my life.

[A]

Yeah. That's something we spoke to Robert Putnam about on the show. Still one of my favorite human beings.

[C]

My colleague at the Kennedy School.

[A]

No. Really? Yeah, for sure. Oh, man. Bob Putnam is like, he's wonderful. He's one of my favorite human beings because of how he synthesized what's lacking in humanity today. And it's that we think that good politics creates good relationships in society. And he was like, no, the good relationships in society is what creates good politics. And so we live in a world now where we go. We don't agree, so we don't spend time. And if we get. If I get my politics good enough and I get my world feel good enough, we will all come together. And it's like, no, no. If we all find ways to come together, not around the politics. The politics starts to build itself in the most meaningful, beautiful ways, which is counter to how people think. And it's beautiful that you said it that way.

[C]

If relationships are downstream from politics, you're going to be miserable.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

If politics is downstream from relationships. And it's funny because I've actually seen and participated in these studies where when you bring people who are really diametrically opposed politically together, Bernie Sanders voters and Donald Trump voters, it's actually, they have kind of a lot in common. But anyway, they're you. And you say, okay, you're going to talk about politics. It's like daggers drawn. Right. Yelling. But if you tell them you're going to talk about politics. But first you got to talk to each other about your kids. You got to tell each other about your kids. And they're laughing and they're sharing stories about the people that they love the most. And if they have both have teenagers, it's like you have a common enemy. Yeah. And it's just. And they. And then they talk about politics and this. Like they don't hate each other. Other. Why? Because there's no way to get to hate if you start with love. And that's the point. That's Bob Putnam's point.

[B]

I think we've placed such a. I think from the conversation that we're having now and realizing what you're saying, we've placed such little value on community and the people that we have around us. Right. And we. We don't have a giving spirit when it comes to opinions and what the likes of other people are. For example, I hate pickle ball, but there's these two friends of mine that I can't shake off. That love pickleball. But I've realized.

[C]

Relationship ender.

[B]

Yes, but is that you?

[C]

Are you the pickleball guy?

[B]

I wasn't gonna name names and out people.

[C]

One of them is at this table and it's not me. A process of elimination.

[B]

But I realized that the first time I watched them playing pickleball, I was like, oh, this is boring. This sucks. The second time I went, I was like, they look so happy doing this. And the third time, I saw them growing within the game that they were playing from the first time that I'd seen them, which is three games ago, you know. And I thought to myself, if I'm able to take myself away from what I think is entertaining and watch others who I care about being entertained, that makes me happy. Yeah, it was almost like being there. And I started enjoying the snacks there. I enjoyed the little walkabouts there. I enjoyed the people that worked there and overhearing conversations. Then I realized it wasn't just about seeing them happy. It was, once I realized that they were happy, I could go out and find my own happiness. And I end up with happy friends in the car.

[C]

What you did was you stopped doing this and you started doing this. So there's the. You're two people. Eugene is two people. There's me self, Eugene, looking at yourself. And there's myself. There's suspenders too soon. So there's.

[B]

I don't expect that from you.

[A]

I'm sorry.

[C]

Low blow, low blow, Metal feet.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And there's I self, Eugene, which is looking out, looking outward. And it's funny because, you know the. The most popular class on most college campuses. You know what it is? Astronomy 101.

[B]

Why?

[C]

Exactly why? Finally I ask a student, why do you. Because they're like English majors, communications majors. They're not astronomers, they're not physicists. You say, why do you love this so much? And this girl says, well, you know, I don't know. But on Thursday morning, I got my astronomy class at 9:00 and I go in, I'm super stressed out because I had a big argument with my mom and I think I'm gonna break up with my boyfriend because I got a B, which Harvard is like the end of the world. And she says, and I sit in that class for an hour and a half and I come out and I'm a speck on a speck on a speck. That's the eye self. We can actually. That's the I self. It's looking outward, looking outward, looking outward.

[B]

That's the reason that zooming out and

[C]

out, standing in awe, watching people who are enjoying themselves, serving other people, worshiping God, being in nature, listening to the works of Johan Sebastian Bach, whatever your thing is, that's the eye self looking in the mirror. Notifications on social media. Pure torture.

[B]

I had been there three times, to tell you the truth, Arthur, three times. And I didn't realize that they had ginger. Alex, while when I was the happiest yesterday, about what they were doing and what we were gonna do afterwards, right. Which was going to go eat steak at Peter Luger's, which was in my bucket list forever, I discovered in that fridge that they had ginger ale.

[C]

Do you love ginger ale?

[B]

Love ginger ale.

[A]

But you couldn't have seen it before because you're focused on how much you didn't like pickleball.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And yesterday I saw it.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

And you looked out and saw something beautiful, which is people that you loved doing something that they truly enjoyed. And love is the basis of happiness. And enjoyment is a macronutrient of happiness. And when you witness that, it changed your life. It changed your perspective. It wasn't a pickleball. It could have been anything.

[A]

So how do we find this balance?

[C]

Because pickleball, by the way, was invented in my city where I grew up.

[A]

You grew up in Washington?

[C]

I grew up in Seattle.

[A]

Washington. Yeah. Wow, look at that. Yeah.

[C]

Washington. And when I was.

[A]

It wasn't about which people, right.

[C]

Like 70s and 80s people were playing pickleball. It's like a local thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Now everybody's playing pickleball.

[A]

Yeah. No, it's fast.

[B]

As found upon then. Or was it always a thing of cool people playing it?

[C]

It was. I don't know.

[A]

What I know is old age homes, all these homes. Invented it as a. As a low risk sport.

[C]

Yeah, exactly Right. Actually we wouldn't wipe out your knees or something.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

I used to.

[A]

No one said anything about your wrist.

[C]

I used to go to the only Starbucks in those days. I used to walk to the only.

[A]

Oh, because that's the capital of it.

[C]

Right. That was the place like I lived. I grew up in Queen Anne Hill. And I would go over the top of Queen Anne Hill.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

And down to the Pike Place Market,

[A]

which is back when it was. So this is when it was like Boeing town basically is when you were. When you were growing up there. This is when Boeing ran the town.

[C]

Warehouser and Boeing. I don't know.

[A]

Warehouser.

[C]

Warehouser is logging.

[A]

I did not know that.

[C]

It's an Extractive industry. And so sort of low education, high skill was warehouser. High education, high skill was bowling. When I grew up, my dad taught at a local college there.

[B]

So the lumberjacks were down there.

[C]

My dad had a PhD in biostat. Yeah.

[A]

And your mom taught.

[C]

My mother was an artist. Was an artist of like minor acclaim in the Pacific Northwest.

[A]

What a beautiful combination, right, the arts. Yeah, no, it really is.

[C]

They were wonderful people and you know. Wonderful people.

[A]

You just saying that this is just my anecdotal amateur. No science based research, nothing brain. I feel like I have noticed a decrease over the years in people. And maybe this is socioeconomic, whatever it is, but I've noticed a decrease just from my perspective. Disclaimer. Disclaimer. In the amount of people who are with somebody who's like from a completely different discipline to them. Do you know what I mean? I feel like a previous generation was like, my dad was a scientist. My mom was an artist. My dad was a this, my mom was a that. My dad was. And then like these days people like, we're accountants, we're lawyers.

[C]

I know. That's called homogamy. Homogamy is a really. Is a very. Is a. It's a phenomenon that's growing in prevalence.

[A]

Oh, so this is happening?

[C]

Oh, totally. Totally. Completely. And by the way, it's socioeconomic too, which is a real problem.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I. That's what I mean.

[C]

You're sorting. It's assorted. Assorted of mating where people are meeting. It's like they go to college and they meet. They marry people from other fancy colleges that do the same thing. They do. Right. And you know, that's just, wow. I mean, great. Fall in love with whoever you want. Right? But it's.

[A]

Yeah, but meet more people that you can fall in love with.

[C]

But there's another problem in here. There's another, like a neurochemical problem. Okay, here's the. Here's the wrinkle in this and this. This is exacerbated by the way, by dating apps. Dating apps allow you to curate the relationships, curate the people that you meet on the basis of your comp. Your compatibility. So you say, I want somebody who, you know, is votes. Like I do. Somebody who likes the same kind of music that I do and somebody who thinks that, you know, Austin, Texas is really awesome and somebody who likes to eat sriracha. I don't know, whatever.

[A]

You want to date yourself.

[C]

And that's not hot. It turns out that what's most hot is a baseline of compatibility and tons of complementarity. And you don't find complementary. You don't find it on most apps. Some apps are getting much better about this because they're trying to not maximize time in app. They're trying to maximize time in person, which is really important. But there's this whole literature on this. There's these. This physiology experiments. Where do you. Have you ever heard about the T shirt sniffing?

[A]

Oh, yeah. That's one of my favorite experiments of all time.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. So

[B]

did you.

[A]

It is one of my favorite experiments.

[C]

It's great, Eugene. So what? So Trevor and I'll tell you about the T shirts.

[B]

Yes, please.

[A]

No, you go, you go. Because, you know, I'm sure you won't mess up the details. I think I know all of them, but I. You can go.

[C]

It's a mid-90s thing. So. And what the researchers did was they. They have an experiment with undergraduates because they'll do anything for 20 bucks. And they had guys who would wear these T shirts around for 48 hours,

[A]

but no deodorant and no condition, nothing.

[C]

They would do the thing. They'd play sports or walk around, just go to class, whatever. Then they took their T shirts off and they put them in shoeboxes and drilled holes in the shoeboxes, and they gave them to random women who didn't know the guys necessarily. There was no identifying marks on the boxes. And they would sniff the T shirts through the holes, and then they had to rate them on the hotness of the guys. And it turns out that the hotness was inversely correlated to the similarity genetically of the men and the women.

[A]

No. And the reason is that what it was?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So the more different somebody is from you genetically, the hotter you find their smell. Because the olfactory bulb in the brain picks up what's called the major histocompatibility complex, which is a measurement of how much genetic or how much, how resistant you're going to be to diseases. You want people, somebody really different than you, that you have kids with.

[A]

You're getting the best choice.

[C]

Get a better repertoire of defenses.

[A]

Right?

[C]

And that's how you sense it. One of the ways that you sense it. That's why you should never pick your. That you should. You should never pick your own perfume. Women should never pick their own perfume. Because if women pick their own perfume, they like something, right? That smells like. That smells attractive to them, which is like their boyfriend, and their boyfriend smells it and says, that smells like my sister, not hot. Always let your beloved pick your Perfume.

[A]

Because you're trying to smell good for them, not for yourself.

[C]

But what you're doing is you're trying to smell good for them. So you pick something that smells delicious to you and something that smells delicious to you. You've already picked that person on the basis of your olfactory bulb, because that person is right for you. A huge amount of attraction comes from smell. Like, I met my wife, and I'm like, I don't know.

[A]

It's like.

[C]

It's like cantaloupe on an August afternoon. It's just like, I can't get enough of it. I'm 34 years in. I can't get enough of my wife's smell. Can't get enough of it because it doesn't smell like me.

[A]

Yeah, it is the right kind. Is it true? And correct me if I'm misremembering this. In the study, I also remembered that they showed the people pictures of the guys. So they give you the box, you sniff, and then you go rate from 1 to 10. But then they would also give them a picture of guys and go rate them from 1 to 10. And the numbers that they chose were almost exactly like. So the guys, they gave a seven was the picture, they gave a seven. The guys, they gave a three was the picture, they gave a three. And people were like, how is this?

[C]

Yeah, so love is blind is great, as long as there's, like, holes in

[A]

the wall that you can sniff through.

[C]

Because it's basically, you're going to get a lot of the same information.

[A]

So now, going back to sort of what you were saying earlier about us finding this balance, you know, you talk about your wife, you talk about your relationship, you know, applies to kids, families, societies, et cetera. Are we in danger of living, you know, when you talk about east versus west, are we in danger of living in a world where we are so encouraged to pursue individualism that we then end up losing happiness? Like, is there an extreme that you can go to? It's like your rights, your freedom of everything, your house, your car, your swimming pool, your. You know what I mean? Like, does that limit your happiness in a way that we don't really understand?

[C]

For sure. Absolutely for sure. And this is the balance that we're trying to get. This is like the dark side of the Enlightenment in its way. I mean, the Enlightenment's phenomenal. It's great. You know, we've gone from might makes right to trying to persuade each other. Rule of law, markets, individuality, democracy, all this good stuff that we count on but the other truth about this is this individuality. It. It makes us into islands. And that's something that we have to. It's. It's. It's something that we have to be aware of and be taken care of in our own lives. I have this super ultra. My, my favorite, my favorite philosopher is Ralph Waldo Emerson.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Have you ever read Self Reliance by Ralph Waldo Emerson?

[A]

I don't know that I have.

[C]

It's just like the sturdy lad who always does it on his own. Who farms it, who minds it and who always lands on his feet like a cat. That's the stuff that I want. I mean, I bailed out of my hometown when I was a kid, never came back. It's me, man. It's me against the world. That's not the secret of happiness. It just isn't. And I have to be really, really aware of that all the time. I have to be clear on the fact that my impulse is toward individuation, toward radical individualism. I get it. I'm an American by birth. You guys are Americans by choice.

[A]

No, we're not. We're South Africans all the way, baby.

[C]

Yeah, I will notice that we're in New York. We're in New York.

[A]

New York doesn't count.

[C]

Trevor. No, he just said that New York's not perfect of America anyway.

[A]

New York said New York not part of America. You can't. That one you can't get me on. New York will protect me. They'll be like, yeah, what you gonna do about it?

[C]

But this is important because like a lot of people watching us are really, really individualistic. But the point is that you can't, you can't actually find love by becoming more and more isolated.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And that means that there's so many things that we have a tendency to do that we actually have to self govern that we actually have to manage. You have to walk back from. I mean, look, there's many tendencies that everybody knows about. I want to, you know, go get drunk because it's awesome.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But I'm not going to do that because it's not the right thing to do.

[A]

But that's like an obvious one that's

[C]

sort of obvious, not obvious to everybody. I mean that's. The pursuit of pleasure is really deleterious. As it turns out, people do all kinds of things and they think if I get. It goes back to what we were talking about. If I get enough money, there's going to be a number. I'm going to meet my number. I'm Going to scratch the itch so hard that finally I'm not going to itch anymore. That's true for money. It's also true for individuality. We need people. We're social animals. Right.

[A]

What does it do to our brains when we. Because I think I've heard you speak about this or I've read something about this, but I'm intrigued by what it does to our actual brains when we need people and we actually express that need. Why does that make us happier? I don't understand that.

[C]

So effectively we're emotionally completed and there's a lot of, you know, we could talk about this neurobiologically, but it makes sense.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That we actually don't feel ourselves when we're all by ourselves. Yeah, that we really are. And, you know, we're, we're. We're made to live in kinship. We're made to live in kin groups. And that makes perfect sense because if you truly were an individual, you'd be walking the savannah and getting hunted down in minutes. So you need to actually feel complete when you're around your people. And that's an evolutionary imperative, is to be around your people. Because the members of the species that didn't have that, they're going to die off. They're going to die off. That's just the way it is. And that's one of the reasons is there's very, very, very few people. I've met a hermit. I met a hermit in the Himalayas, and he hadn't lived with anybody for 27 years. He saw people very infrequently, he granted me. And what he does every day, he wakes up six o' clock in the morning and he makes himself a little breakfast by himself. And then he reads a bunch of texts in Tibetan and he sees nobody. And he'll talk to the monkeys, a lot of monkeys. And he says he's blissfully happy. Blissfully happy. That's very unusual. That's an aberration. That's not the norm, as it turns out. Now, some people are more introverted and some people are more extroverted. But introverts need people to. We need people. We don't feel like ourselves. You don't know who you are unless you actually have somebody who mirrors your back to yourself.

[A]

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[A]

There's something Eugene will often bring up that I think is important to get into. And it's how we talk about this, how we talk about these ideas, whilst also acknowledging the positions that people are in their lives. You know, so I would love to know when, when you're teaching people about happiness, is there a way to break it down according to how people are living their lives? And this is what I mean. You know, sometimes people go, hey, money's not everything, but it's often the people who have money who are saying it. And I'm literally borrowing this from you. You know, it's like, but you have the money. It's, it's a lot easier for someone to say it when they have the money, right? And it's like, let me try. It's a lot easier for somebody to say like, hey man, don't let work be your life. And it's like, yeah, but I have to work for my life and this, this has to be my life. So how do, how do you think of happiness in, in those ways? Is there, is there a, you know, is there like A shifting wheel that clicks. Is it. You know, is there a way to think of it differently, or does it just apply to everyone the same, regardless of what's happening to them?

[C]

So everybody needs enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning. The macronutrients, for sure. But there are habits that everybody actually. That the happiest people are dedicated to, and those basic habits fall in the categories of faith or life, philosophy, friendship, family, and meaningful work. Those are the four big buckets. The happiest people are doing what our

[A]

grandmothers did, funny enough.

[C]

Yeah, kind of.

[A]

No, they really nailed that. Everything you said that was like, these are grandmothers.

[C]

And what's actually pushing us away from this, by the way, is the misuse and overuse of technology. That's one of the reasons that the big. The big problem, the crisis that we're having in happiness today, particularly for people under 35, is that they don't know. Meaning the number one predictor of depression and anxiety is saying, my life feels meaningless. And the reason for this is because the misuse and overuse of technology have changed the way that people use their brains and pushed them away from the old ways. So. The old ways, you know, it's like, I guarantee you that, you know, Grandpa Noah never came home to grandma and said, honey, I had a panic attack behind the mule today.

[B]

And then Grandma said, you have a mule?

[A]

You know, I was picturing the same thing.

[C]

I was like, mule.

[A]

No. But I was like, you're not wrong, though.

[C]

But the reason is because, you know, I don't want to go live like Grandpa Noah, and neither do you.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I don't want to live like my grandfather and smoke a pack of Winstons a day. I don't want to do that. But I do want my brain to work the way it's supposed to work. Oh. And the truth of the matter is that we've hemispherically lateralized our brain. We've moved activity to the left hemisphere of the brain, which is all about what and how and efficiency and grinding and achievement and. And reels and apps and tech in the right side of the brain, when you're bored and when you're in love and when you're suffering and when you see beauty, that right side of the brain gives you mystery and meaning and all the stuff that you actually can't quite articulate. So this is the big difference that I actually see. The unhappiest people that I meet today are all living on the left, and the people who are happiest are doing a bunch of old, weird things. That are weird now, that would have been ordinary life before that are helping them to be on the right side of their brains.

[B]

You know, also, what you're explaining helps me rationalize my hate for conversations about AI because when. When I hear people who despise the thought of AI coming more and more into our lives, it makes me understand that they are more and more addicted to this technology that they feel like AI is going to take. AI won't replace you making breakfast or taking a walk with your loved one or with your child or writing a book. It has no interest in that. But if you have made technology your con, the cornerstone of your happiness and of your purpose and what keeps you busy and what keeps you entertained, of course you're going to worry when someone or something comes and threatens that, right?

[C]

Of course. No, no, for sure. And you know the way for people to understand this for A.I. can A.I.

[A]

make me happy?

[C]

What will you love? Your cat? I know you won't. Or a mechanical cat. And it's a question that answers itself. Mechanical cat can be really, really, really amazing. But you're always going to know it's actually not alive.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So what does alive mean? I don't know, It's. I can simulate it, I guess. No, no, no. You know what alive means. You know it. So that's why AI, by the way, can bring you greater happiness if you're solving how to and what technical problems, freeing up your time and going being with the people you love. But it will lower your happiness if you're using it for right brain functions by making it your therapist and your lover and your friend. I mean, it might fool you for a minute, but it won't fool your brain. You can't simulate, meaning it can give

[B]

you high resolution of what Central park looks like. Or you can be in Central Park.

[C]

Yeah, and that's the point. That's an important point. You can't. So when I was a relative, much younger man, 25 years ago now, was the most popular movie of the year was the Matrix. Oh, right. That's a great.

[A]

Still my most popular.

[C]

It's a great movie.

[A]

Still my most popular.

[C]

26 years ago now, depending on when we air this, it's gonna be 27 years ago.

[A]

26 years.

[C]

It was 1999.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I don't feel like the Matrix is that.

[C]

Wow. Sorry, dude. Yeah. Damn.

[A]

I know. Not in a bad way.

[C]

I'm just like, here you feel. It's like, imagine how I feel. Anyway, so. So. And in the Matrix, the plot of the movie obviously Is that there's this super intelligent machine life, like fake life in a machine that has to, it's a super intelligence and it has to power itself on human endeavor. And it does so by putting people in pods and simulating a real life that's really, really pleasant and distracting and kind of narcotic. And that's like crazy science fiction. We're in the Matrix. We're in the Matrix. I mean, it's like I'll get up, you know, then I check my phone and then I go to work, which is on a zoom screen and all my friends are kind of on social media. And then I'm on a date. And a lot of my accomplishment is going to come from gaming. It's the Matrix, which is getting you stuck in the left side of your brain. And the one thing you'll never get from that is meaning.

[B]

Isn't it weird that we go, I'm bored. Swipe. I am hungry, I want to get from A to B and I want some company. Yeah, but we're doing, all of it is here.

[C]

And the great irony of this is that your grandfather, his day to day existence was pretty damn boring. It was. He did a lot of, a lot of stuff was. His job was pretty boring.

[B]

He worked in the railway, so he was pretty bored.

[C]

Yeah, but he never, at the end of his life, he wouldn't have said, my life has been very boring. Because his life wasn't boring. But here's the thing. If you live like modern people do today, not using your brain the way it's supposed to, you're never actually bored moment to moment, but your life is unbelievably boring.

[A]

I always say it's the elimination of friction that we take for granted. Like as you increase convenience.

[B]

I've implemented that so many times.

[A]

Remember when we spoke? The cost of convenience is one that we haven't fully understood yet in life. And it's actually interesting to see. I know I've spoken about this before, but go and look at the tech entrepreneurs who make technology in India, all over Africa, Nigeria, Kenya, South Africa, you name it. Look at the tech that they make. They make tech that solves a problem that was otherwise unsolvable.

[C]

You know what I mean?

[A]

So they'll make an app that enables farmers to know when to plant their crops so that they have the highest yield and they don't lose, you know, 40% of their crops or whatever. And then you look at the Western world, the US in particular. Most of the apps, they don't solve a problem.

[C]

You can find a closest pizza at

[A]

10pm do you know what I mean? No. And I think of what you're talking about now, what it's robbed us of is the walk to go find the pizza place. The conversation. Remember asking somebody for directions? Yeah. You know how crazy those moments were. Or asking someone, you're trying to get somewhere and that might spark something. And then because you're in a place, then someone else talks to you and then a thing happens and where did you bump into each other? All of the most wonderful things or many of the most wonderful things that will happen to you in your life are inconvenience. Yeah, yeah, that's. That's why they happen.

[C]

Pilgrimage is induced inconvenience.

[A]

Oh, I love that. Induced inconvenience.

[C]

Totally. I mean, you're putting a bunch of friction in your life. Like, I'm going to walk even though I could fly. I could drive, I could take a train. I'm going to walk hundreds of miles, I'm going to walk and it's going to hurt. I'm going to do that.

[B]

It's going to take time.

[C]

Why? Because I want to get access to this special information that comes to me when I'm not actually arriving.

[A]

So let me ask you this. As somebody who's written multiple books about this, I'm always intrigued by the things that scholars keep learning about a subject that you would think they would have otherwise conquered. You know what I mean? Now I want to know what you are newly discovering or what's newly exciting you in the field of happiness that you haven't previously delved into.

[C]

Yeah. So my background is behavioral science.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And behavioral economics, psychology, et cetera. I had to retrain learning a lot of neuroscience because the vanguard is this realization that psychology is biology, that if you don't understand the brain, you don't understand the mind. And I'm not a radical physicalist. I'm a religious person. I'm a traditionally religious person. So I'm not a radical physicalist.

[A]

It's all here and nowhere else.

[C]

No, I don't actually believe that. But the truth is I'm not going to understand what's going on with my emotions unless I understand what's going on with my limbic system. And that's the vanguard. That's super fun and exciting. It's unbelievable. For my writing, I'm reading 10 to 20 neuroscience articles a week. So I've had to really retrain it. And I'm not. I'm not an expert. I don't have a PhD in neuroscience, I mean, I talk to neuroscientists and it's like, oh, man, this is so far above me. You know, I listen to, like, Huberman. He's truly is a great neuroscientist, and I don't hold a candle to that. But the more that I'm learning, the more excited that I actually get. And that's the. That's a. That's a learning pilgrimage that I get to be on for the rest of my life.

[A]

It's just so exciting, discovering new parts

[B]

of pumping that limbic man.

[A]

How the thing. One thing connects to the other thing, connects to the other thing. What?

[B]

So.

[C]

So it's the same thing I can ask you, though. So you've been at the top of your profession. What are you doing to stay fresh and to learn what is thrilling your heart these days that you're learning?

[A]

So now I'm trying to be a professional at living.

[C]

Tell me more.

[A]

Sort of going back to what we spoke about earlier, I realized I'm very good at working.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I've worked my entire life that I. That I've been allowed to work, you know, so I've worked my entire life. I'm very good at working. I'm very good at adapting to that work, understanding it, and getting to a level of proficiency that allows me to earn a living in that work. What I've never been particularly good at is living.

[C]

Ah.

[A]

You know, so recently I went to my first wedding ever that at the age of 41 years old, I went to a wedding. I accepted.

[C]

And it wasn't yours, right?

[A]

No, it wasn't. I accepted an invitation. I attended, and for the first time, I was like, oh, this is what a wedding is. I see. And we sit like this. And then those people, oh, wow, this is. You get what I'm saying?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I've never done that, and I've never done it because I think for the most part, it's been work. Work. Most people don't know when their weddings are before I know my schedule.

[C]

Right.

[A]

So by the time, you know, you're waiting, I'm like, I'm already working that day, you know? And now this one was a combination of me saying, I will make the space, but I. Luckily the person told me, why.

[C]

Why, why. Why the. The preoccupation with work?

[A]

Yeah. So why the preoccupation with work? No, it was because you love your work. I think it was a combination of two things. One, survivability. So the first one was just like, earn a living, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There was no, like, choice. And I always tell people, people like, why did you become a comedian? I'm like, because it's the only job they weren't interviewing for. You know what I mean? I didn't need to come with qualifications, otherwise I would have done other things.

[C]

No dates.

[A]

Yeah. Really. The other thing was that I enjoyed it. And I started developing and I still work on a master of it.

[C]

Super high achievement orientation.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So I go like, this is great, because you are.

[C]

Your number one macronutrient is satisfaction. Is achievement that you get after struggle. Achievement. Oh, achievement. Satisfaction from so. And you're like a virtuoso at satisfaction.

[A]

So what I love is I'm a big fan of luck theory.

[C]

Yeah, Right.

[A]

And when I discovered this, it changed my whole life. So there was a. A French philosopher who wrote a whole book about luck and the principles of luck. And he said, we always just talk about luck as if it's this one flat idea. So lucky, unlucky, terrible. Good things. Not bad for you. Ha ha.

[B]

Lucky.

[A]

And he wrote this whole book and he broke luck down into these four quadrants. And he said, we need to understand what luck is to understand how we welcome or dissuade luck from coming into our lives.

[C]

So he said it's not luck.

[A]

Yeah. So he said the first thing is dumb luck. Right. It's the luck where something just is. It is because it is where you were born. Your grandparents, dumb luck. If they learned Zulu. Now you're a South African.

[C]

That's totally different experience.

[A]

Exactly. Washington.

[C]

If there wasn't a whole show in Zulu.

[A]

There you go. How do you flick in Zulu? What do you even say?

[B]

How do you flick?

[A]

I don't know what flick is.

[B]

I don't think there's a word for it yet.

[A]

Yeah, we got to come with a flick. You got to flick your. Yeah, but anyway. No, so, so, so there's your dumb luck.

[C]

We almost lost the whole show there.

[A]

You cannot control it.

[B]

You are number one.

[A]

There's a spike. There's a spike in the brain what's happening. So dumb luck, things that you cannot control this. You cannot blame anyone. You cannot think. It's just happening.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That's you country. You're born in people. You're born to language, etc. Then the next one is luck of motion.

[C]

Right?

[A]

Luck of motion is literally what it sounds like. Once you start moving, luck can happen to you. You can't stub your toe without getting out of bed, but you also can't bump into somebody in the street without walking into the street. Do you know what I'm saying? And that's luck. Oh, so luck. You know who I bumped into? Oh, my God.

[B]

Luck of.

[A]

That's luck of motion. Right? And then the third one is lack of awareness. This one is an interesting one to me because it's the ability to see and notice the ginger ale at the pickleball place. I'm so lucky. There's ginger ale here. No, you were aware that there was ginger ale, and so you became lucky. So there are two people walking down the street. There's $100 on the ground. The one person is aware that there's $100. The other one isn't. One person says, I'm so lucky, I found $100. The other person was, I'm unlucky. I've never picked up. I've never found money. You weren't aware that there was money. Exactly. And that applies to everything. It applies to love. It applies to opportunities and work. It's someone who sees a sign that says help wanted. They're just aware they see a place opening and they go, hey, are you guys gonna look for work? Do you need people here? Because you haven't even advertised, but I've noticed that you're starting a new store. You know, that's awareness. And then the last one, which I find most interesting is the lack of uniqueness, specialization. When you choose to delve into something and really, really, really get into it, it doesn't matter what it is. A sport, a hobby, a profession. It doesn't matter what it is. It presents unique opportunities to you that'll make you feel lucky. But they aren't necessarily just lucky. So by you being a professor who specializes in happiness, you are more likely to be lucky to bump into Oprah Winfrey. I'm so lucky. Oprah liked me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's a lot harder to meet Oprah when you're not in this world. Do you get what I'm saying?

[C]

No, for sure.

[A]

It's a lot easier to meet LeBron James if you specialize in basketball. It's just a lot easier. I'm not saying it'll happen, but it's easier. So this is.

[C]

This stuff is great. And there's the best psychologist on this British guy named Richard Wiseman.

[A]

Oh, I mean, if your name's Wiseman. I mean, you've got to. Now you. You can't.

[B]

What are you going to do?

[C]

You can't. You can't be stupid.

[A]

Yeah, that's like old wisey over here.

[C]

And then his. His cousin Henry. Idiot.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Didn't do as well.

[B]

That's a good one.

[C]

So. So. And. And the fact that you think about this an awful lot. So I think about this heavy achievement orientation.

[A]

Yes. But what to.

[C]

To.

[A]

To wrap it up in terms of the life thing. What I realized was I was like, oh, Trevor, you think to yourself, you're like, oh, man, I. I wish, you know, I had more wedding stories. I wish I. And I was like, oh, instead of wishing for them, why not try and work on the luck that makes these things happen?

[C]

Right.

[A]

So create more space in your diary.

[C]

And this is. This is your project now.

[A]

Yeah, this is my.

[C]

This is your project.

[A]

He knows. This is my actual project. We. And he's been a great friend in this. I'll go. Eugene, what are you doing? Nothing. Great. Pick something for us to do. And then we just drive and we go have lunch. Or we don't. Or we walk, or we don't. Or we. But we. But I now create the space that I didn't, hoping that maybe something can come into that space that couldn't otherwise if I hadn't filled it with work. Does that make sense?

[C]

Yeah, it does. So, yeah. So this is really important. So remember, there's three parts of happiness.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And so based on this, and, you know, we've met before, but we didn't, like, grow up together.

[A]

No.

[C]

And we haven't played pickleball together.

[A]

No, we have not.

[C]

I'm not trying to hurt you, but I would say of the three macronutrients of happiness, you're a 10 on satisfaction.

[A]

Probably. Yes.

[C]

You're probably a 6 on meaning.

[A]

Oh, you think it's that low?

[C]

No, it's not low.

[A]

You think six is high?

[C]

I think so. Six is pretty moderate. It's pretty.

[A]

Pretty normal. All right.

[C]

And I think you're a three on enjoyment. I think that you never learned how to enjoy your life. And so if I were working with you on this, that. See, they're gonna say, I want to be better at living. I want to be better at living. The problem is that when I'm doing these things to be better at living, I'm not putting points on the board. I'm not making progress in my life. That's what all strivers think.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Right. And so the way to deal with this is to understand how enjoyment works. So I thought you and I were working together. We were talking about this every week. Right. That's okay. We got to have an enjoyment plan. We're going to Have a strategic plan for enjoyment, because we need to reframe it. Kind of like you do with getting good at this.

[A]

It's so funny you say this, because I never remember. I never learned it. I was talking to my mom about this the other day, and I said to her, because my mom is like the ultimate worker.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I said, mom, have you noticed that you work yourself to death, then you rest, but you don't rest. You're just exhausted.

[C]

Right?

[A]

And she was like, yeah, how else could I be? And I was like, well, I think you and I both could practice enjoying before we were exhausted. And she was like, you do it and let me know how it goes, and if it's good, I'll join you. And so I'm on that journey. And she's not against it. She's just like a kid. She's like, look, man, the life I lived, I didn't have sort of the luxuries you had. So work hard, and I'll. I'm open to it, but. But so carry on. So you so work on. And learning to enjoy.

[C]

So let me make a suggestion. Yeah. Right. There's a great book that was written by a German philosopher in the middle of the 20th century named Josef Pieper. And Pieper, he wrote this book called Leisure the Basis of Culture. You're like, okay, so he's going to write a whole book about chilling on the beach. No, no, no. Chilling on the beach isn't leisure. That's acedia, which means kind of a laziness. And there's nothing wrong with chilling on the beach from time to time. But that's not actual leisure. Leisure you have to be excellent at to be excellent at leisure.

[A]

I'm already in.

[C]

Leisure is something you're truly good at.

[A]

This guy here might be an expert, but carry on.

[C]

Okay, that. That. That they don't pay you for, but you're just really, really good at. And so he talks about in categories of spiritual depth, going deeper and deeper and deeper in your spiritual life, it's developing your relationships with your closest friends. Developing relationships at a real level where you go out to dinner. It's like, go deeper, go home. Go deeper, go home. And it's like, here's the first question, Trevor, what are you most afraid of? That's the first question. Because we're going to learn about each other here. That's leisure. That's actual leisure. It's about getting an aesthetic sense. It's about going deep into the works of.

[A]

So it's not, how's things Been.

[C]

No, no, that's nonsense. Who cares? It's like, I don't care about the weather. I don't care what the jets did on Sunday. No, no, no, no. I want to know what you're afraid of. I want to know you. That's leisure, and that's what you. That will create enormous strivers can enjoy their lives only when they understand the truth about leisure. And when they're like, if you don't, you're going to be like, yeah, so I guess on my vacation, I got to go someplace and sit on a beach, bored. No, you don't want to do that. I know you don't want to do that. That sounds horrible to you, right?

[A]

Yeah, it's always been horrible. The sound of that has always been like.

[C]

And it's like. And the problem is that a lot of strivers who have families, they're like total killjoys because their kid, you know, their spouse is like, let's go to the beach. Let's take the kids to the beach. And you're like, I don't. Sweetheart, I can't tell you why, but I hate it. I can't tell you why, but I hate it. And that's because you and your heart know that real leisure is something that has incredible value, that creates value for you and value for the universe, but it doesn't pay you. So what?

[A]

Yeah, that's not the point. Yeah, but the enjoyment. Now, do Eugene. Do Eugene. What's. What would you say Eugene's numbers are

[C]

so higher on enjoyment? Higher on enjoyment. I don't know about the satisfaction numbers because we actually haven't. You're. You're. I don't know as much about your career. I don't know about. Yeah, so tell me.

[B]

So I started off doing comedy, but comedy introduced me to television, to doing a bit of radio, and now it's led me to this path. And we've had guests here that asked me, so, do you miss comedy? I'm like, I can't miss comedy because I'm happy here. Like, I'm enjoying this. This was part of my visualization. Six, seven years ago, I wrote this all down in a book. I said, I want to do something, and I want to do it here, and I want to earn in this currency. Wrote it all down. So when I'm here now, when someone asks me, don't you miss the other thing? I'm like, it doesn't. It doesn't come into my world. You know, when other comics ask me, now that you're in New York. Are you gonna go do a club? I'm like, I'm not even thinking about it. I'm thinking about eating pig's feet and hanging out with my friends.

[C]

He's high on enjoyment, so I'm like,

[B]

no, no, I don't think that far. And we've also had this conversation. I'm like, no, no. This, for me, is the World cup of it all. For now, this is what's happening, and I'm enjoying this.

[C]

So tell me, what's the mission statement of your life?

[B]

I do not want to regret not doing things for a while. I forgot the philosophy that my mom taught me, that no matter who says what and how uncomfortable it is, you didn't break anywhere. You must just keep going. Her other philosophy was, you can always start over, you know, try again and try again and try again. And there was a time where besides the sabbatical that I took, I just paused. I stopped doing things that made me happy, and I started doing things that made other people happy. And when I. When I was in really, really a bad place, I'd lost my son, things were just horrible emotionally. Those people that I tried to satisfy were nowhere to be found. In fact, I would find out when I came out of it that they were the first people that would call me unreliable. They will call me. I don't show up for places, I don't show up for work, and didn't even bother knowing what was wrong in the first place. So that alone freed me and gave me the independence to just ride bikes by myself, go to shooting by myself. So I learned to do these hobbies and little side quests, as my daughter calls them, you know, by myself.

[C]

So you have low. What we call pos, negative affect. Negative affect is intensity of negative emotions. And half the population is above average. And half the population is below average. Right. So you're low in negative affect and which is one of the reasons that you can. Terrible things can happen to you and you feel crummy about it, but it doesn't ruin your life. It doesn't ruin your life. It's a huge amount of resilience because of this, which is really great. I would say that you've got what we call the temperament of, of the cheerleader. High positive, high intensity positive emotions and low intensity negative emotions. It doesn't mean you don't feel these particular things, but that's just the functioning of the limbic system.

[B]

I know it's going to work out.

[C]

Yeah. You, on the other hand, are high, high, high positive Emotion, High negative emotion. You feel things really strongly. Oh, yeah, you feel things strongly. That's the mad scientist profile.

[A]

Mad scientist profile.

[C]

The mad scientist profile is like, everything is like,

[A]

oh, I love this.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Texas laboratory.

[C]

So you're the cheerleader I loved and you're the mad scientist. Right. Okay, so there's two other profiles which is low intensity positive and high intensity negative. That's the poet.

[A]

That seems rough.

[C]

That's rough.

[A]

That's rough.

[C]

That's the poet. But those people. Yeah, those are the poets. And then there's low, low, low amplitude emotionality. Those are the judges. Those are the judges. They're not impartial, credible. They don't, they don't, they're not freaking out. And this, it's quarters of the population, but you find people in different, in different lines of work that tend to crowd into one of these, into these, into these quadrants. So you find that CEOs and entrepreneurs, they tend to be mad scientists.

[B]

Right?

[C]

Because they're just taking a bite out of life. You just told me you're taking a huge bite out of life all the time. Yeah, that's like, time's ticking, dude. Let's do this right. And sometimes it sucks. And you understand that and you feel that deeply. And, and you got bad days, but you're going to keep going, going, going, going, going. And you, on the other hand, you're actually able to stop. You're actually able to stop doing things. Why? Because you're a cheerleader. And the amplitude of your negative emotionality is not going to impel you to be constantly in motion doing something. You're actually. And that is the happiest. That is the happiest profile. It doesn't mean crummy things aren't going to happen to you or they do and you don't care. That's not it at all. What it means is that you're highly, highly, highly resilient. You're a highly resilient person. And now what does this mean? This means that you can bring. I mean, this is, this is. You're perfect. You're perfect here. You're, you're. It's interesting comics who are, who are cheerleaders. There's kind of two kinds of comedians. They're comedians who have really high intensity negative emotion. And what they get is, they do a lot of emotional substitution where they figured out when they were little kids. I'm, I pal around with Rainn Wilson a lot. Yeah. And he had a really, really rough childhood. He grew up five miles Away from me in Seattle. And we're about the same age. We didn't know each other as kids, but we bonded over this. Right. Watching the same shows on TV and, you know, fifth grade. And what they do when they have a rough childhood, he really struggled, is that they figure out that they're smart and funny, and when they make a joke, everybody else laughs, and then life feels better. That's the first kind of comic they're really good at with a straight face, making everybody else laugh. Then the other kind make everybody laugh because they use emotional contagion. That's. You know, so you do this. You use emotional contagion. You laugh all the time, which makes me laugh and makes me happy. And there's a kind of comic that

[B]

doesn't hear you coming. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

This is great. And there's two kinds of comics like this, but you have figured out you've unlocked this success as somebody who's going to bring happiness to everybody else around you by sharing your happiness. And you've even done it by laughing and being a comic who laughs a lot. It's an amazing thing.

[B]

It's crazy.

[A]

This is crazy.

[C]

It's an amazing thing.

[A]

Before. Before you go, what's your quadrant? What's your.

[C]

I'm a mad scientist.

[A]

Oh, mad scientist. I was there.

[C]

I was like, mad scientists unite.

[A]

Laboratory.

[C]

And what this means, by the way, that for you, you don't need to worry so much about raising your happiness. You need to manage your unhappiness. Happiness. You need to manage your unhappiness more than raise money.

[A]

No. Can I tell you, this is so crazy. Maybe it's. Maybe I'm. I wrote down. I remember in one of my journals, I said, especially for me, I said, I just need to worry about what I do not like. I believe this for most people because I go, we do not know what we want. We only remember what we enjoyed, and then we want to replicate it. But I was like, for myself, for me, me, me. I went, just find the knots and just minus them, minus them, minus. Because those things. Because I. I did not know how much fun I would get have getting to know you.

[C]

Right.

[A]

I did not know how much you would influence me when I first met you. So I'm always open to those things where I'm like, wow, you never know what'll happen. What happened, happened. But the knots.

[C]

Hey, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.

[A]

Can you try this? I see you in.

[C]

Now I got it.

[A]

You're in. You are much closer than your grandparents instantly. You were flawless.

[C]

There The Holy spirit just worked through me.

[A]

It worked straight through you, my friend.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but this is important because you know what, there's all kinds of people who have really high negative affect. There's all kinds of destructive ways to manage your negative affect.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[C]

Drugs and alcohol. Classic way to manage your limbic system, which is overactive on the negative side.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

That's why people do that. You know, there's sort of two reasons that people become, you know, addicted to alcohol. For example, it's boredom and anxiety.

[A]

Oh, man.

[C]

But for high achievers, it's always anxiety because they're highly anxious people, which means they have a really active amygdala.

[A]

And that's the only way they can

[C]

like instantly calm it down between your amygdala and your prefrontal cortex. So you're actually really stressed out, but you don't know, which is why two drinks you're like, okay, I'm all right. And so they're self treating for. That's a very destructive way to deal with negative outcome. Another is workaholism. Just, just, just like this, I know how to do this. This I know how to do. And they ruin their marriage because they're trying to get away from their negative affect by staying at the office for the 14th hour before the first hour with their kids. I'm guilty. I'm guilty. That's the problem. When I was running the company, how

[A]

do, how do we work on these things as people?

[C]

Like, how do you, you find better ways to manage your negative affect?

[A]

Yeah. So how do, but how do people even begin, how do you even know that you are doing it? And then how do you begin to work on it?

[C]

You got to know yourself. You actually have to do the work, as they say, which doesn't necessarily mean going, you know, getting tangled up in the therapy industrial complex. That's good for some people, but it's not necessary for everybody. The reason I teach this stuff is because I want people to think about their lives. I want them to understand. Because your laboratory, it's time to go experiment in all these different ways. And you've been telling me about experiments that you're doing already, like, I'm going to get better at living. What you're telling me is that you're a living lab. And why? Because you're treating these different things to be a more effective, happier person that can lift other people up, up more effectively, which is a beautiful thing. And so what are two great ways to treat negative affect? Get deep, more deeply into Your spiritual life. More deeply in your spiritual life. Hugely effective.

[B]

See that finger?

[C]

And we recommend Catholicism, by the way. I'm gonna learn it in Zulu. And the second is, really, is really simple. It's run around and pick up heavy things.

[A]

Ah, that's simple.

[C]

It's that simple.

[A]

Run around and pick up heavy things.

[C]

It's like exercise. Exercise. And so I, you know, I'm a mad scientist and I have to treat my negative effect. I start every day, I get up, I do an hour in the gym, and I go to mass every day, every day.

[B]

Take care of the physical, take care of the spiritual.

[C]

Because. And, and it's just self defense, you know, it's not like I'm some great guru sitting in a cave in the Himalayas. It's just I have super astronomically high negative affect. I'm at the 90th percentile in negative affect, and I don't want it to interfere with my life. And that's what I figured out by studying this stuff when I left that job. And that's what I've been doing for the past seven years. And that's what I want to bring to everybody.

[A]

And you are, you are, and you have and you continue to. We got to do this again.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

This is so much fun.

[C]

Thank you. I loved it.

[A]

Did I. Did I not promise you this as well?

[B]

I was not going to say this, but on our way here, he was like, you're gonna absolutely love this guy. Do you, man? You're a wizard.

[C]

I love you too, Eugene.

[B]

Love you too, man.

[A]

No, man. Professor Brooks, thank you so much. This has really been great.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Thank you so much.

[C]

Thank you so much.

[A]

Fire guys.

[B]

Thank you, man. You were the conversation we needed.

[A]

What now with Trevor Noah is produced by Dayzero Productions in partnership with Sirius xm. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin and Jess Hackle. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robio. Music mixing and mastering by Hannis Brown. Random other stuff by Ryan Harduth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of what now.

[C]

Why have I asked my electrician I

[A]

found on Angie.com to bury my pet hamster?

[C]

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[A]

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[A]

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[C]

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[A]

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