Cleo Abram: What Could Go Right?

Summary

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What Now? with Trevor Noah

Episode: Cleo Abram: What Could Go Right?

Date: February 5, 2026
Host: Trevor Noah
Guests: Cleo Abram, Eugene

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Episode Overview

This rich and entertaining episode of What Now? explores optimism in media, the power of curiosity, and the evolving landscape of independent content creation. Trevor Noah is joined by Cleo Abram, renowned explainer journalist and creator of the YouTube show “Huge If True,” and his frequent collaborator Eugene. The conversation navigates the joys and perils of seeking optimism in a pessimistic media environment, the science behind seemingly ordinary phenomena, the imperative of maintaining mission over metrics, the reality of going independent, and the surprising importance of curiosity, humor, and experimentation—on and off YouTube.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Mission of Optimistic Explainer Journalism

• Cleo's Philosophy: Cleo describes her goal to create videos that are genuinely explanatory, visually captivating, and fundamentally optimistic.

  • "The premise of the show is, I'm going to genuinely explain something to you that's complicated that I want you to understand. I'm gonna do it in a way that is, in the end, optimistic." (07:56)
  • She avoids rage-bait or pessimistic content, aiming instead to inspire participation and show real-world problem solving.
  • Her metric for success is if an episode is "genuinely a good explainer, genuinely optimistic, and visually stunning" (08:48).

• Audience and Creator Mission: Cleo and Trevor discuss the importance of having clear guiding principles for creation.

  • “It really helps to have a mission.” – Cleo (12:48)
  • Described her show as a “menu of stories and options and futures that could come true to people that might be able to help make them happen.” (26:27)
  • The value of bringing more people into early-stage conversations about technology (like AI or quantum computing) rather than letting a few gatekeepers shape the future (32:31).

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Navigating Pessimism and Helplessness in Media

• The Problem with Negative Coverage:

  • Cleo cites a 1903 NYT article, "Flying Machines Which Do Not Fly," published two months before the Wright Brothers made their breakthrough. She uses this to show how knee-jerk pessimism stifles deeper thinking and healthy discourse about the future (20:45–21:44).
  • “Maybe there's also this, like, hype cycle ... why is this really a problem? ... The first is that it stops the conversation from getting interesting ... the second ... kind of, maybe it's a nihilism that takes hold when people don't believe that the world can get better and that they can help make that happen.” (21:43–24:37)

• Pessimism vs. Productive Challenge:

  • Eugene suggests, "A healthy amount of pessimism is a good catalyst for people to act," referencing teachers who fuel drive through their doubts (25:06).
  • Trevor notes that positive catalysts might be more broadly beneficial: "I sometimes think to myself ... a more positive catalyst is one that prompts your optimism as opposed to ..." (25:25)

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The Influence of Pop Culture on Tech Anxiety

• AI, Culture, and Expectations:
  • Trevor discusses how the general public’s fear of AI is shaped more by sci-fi movies than reality (27:14).
  • He observes that, per a recent poll, Africans view AI more optimistically than Westerners—suggesting a societal context for technological trust/disdain (28:01–29:00).

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Humor, Curiosity, and the Art of Explanation

• Humor as a Teaching Tool:

  • Trevor points out the subtle humor in Cleo’s work–using Mark Rober’s voice for an asteroid, making dinosaur digs fun.
  • “Because you teach well. Genuinely. Because you teach well. It’s easy to consume, it’s easy to digest, and it’s engaging.” (30:40)

• Positioning Herself as the Audience Proxy:

  • “I'm not an expert in anything that I'm talking about ... my goal ... I'm a proxy for the audience ... I'm there to recontextualize what the expert is saying, to kind of translate for them a little bit. Like, that's the magic of what we do.” (31:09)
  • Explainers that are too complicated “just don’t bring people in.” (31:29)

• Curiosity Is Fundamental:

  • Trevor: “Once we stop being curious, we stop growing ... and I've always ... the only way you can invent something is to imagine it first.” (79:48–80:28)
  • Cleo: “There's an endless amount of interesting things to know when you don't stop at, 'oh, that looks a little funny.'” (75:47–75:54)

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Going Independent—Risks and Rewards

• Why Cleo Left Vox:

  • “I wanted to make it, and I wanted to know if other people wanted to watch it ... I just knew I wouldn’t be able to do that in the way that I really wanted to do it, and I wouldn’t be able to test whether the actual thing that was in my brain was the thing that other people wanted if I was inside a big media company.” (94:40)

• The Three Big Trends in Media:

  1. YouTube is displacing television (“YouTube is eating television.” – 106:52)
  2. Creators are going independent (110:19)
  3. There’s a growing desire for optimism in news (“part of a story about pessimism itself ... Huge is something different.” – 111:16)

• Responsibility & Accountability in New Media:

  • Trevor voices concerns about accountability when traditional institutions are replaced by distributed creators (109:08).

• Handling Success and Identity:

  • Trevor and Cleo explore how not tying self-worth to audience reception or virality is crucial for creative longevity (101:26–104:27).
  • “The true mastery of being an artist requires you to know that you are not your work and your work is not you.” – Trevor citing The War of Art (104:27)

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On Curiosity, Science, and Entertaining the Impossible

• Explaining Things—From Curling to CERN:

  • Cleo is working on an explainer about curling, describing the hidden physics mysteries in the sport (69:09–73:28).
  • Trevor: “Now I'm gonna be watching the Olympics, watching curling, trying to figure out why the stone spins the way it does.” (72:18)
  • The group laughs about making science sexy, and how sometimes comedy and science intersect through curiosity (63:03).

• The Value of “Huge If True” Thinking:

  • Addressing far-fetched claims (like aliens channeled through YouTube personalities), Cleo focuses on what makes the topic appealing and pivots discussion to real scientific questions (54:31–55:47).
  • “When I tell stories, I want to make a video ... what is the most realistic case where we might encounter aliens? ... You try and show them the science and the technology that you’re convinced is real through the scientific method, but that gets at this thing that they are excited about.” (61:46)

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Building a More Participatory Future

• Involving All Stakeholders:

  • Trevor tells a story about a student journalist at a Microsoft AI event, who asked, “Do you have any students on your panel?”—reminding everyone of the importance of including those for whom technology is being designed (34:47).

• The Power of Setting Criteria Over Clicks:

  • Cleo frames her safeguard against chasing virality as focusing on the three criteria for her show, not her personal popularity, and thus not trying to become what the metrics demand (101:26–103:39).

• Encouraging Others to Embark, Not Just Escape:

  • Trevor reflects on honoring those who “embark” rather than “escape”—leaving safe, established careers or companies by choice, not necessity (117:44).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On optimism and the burden of pessimism in news:
  • “If the world is just getting worse and I can’t do anything about it, and I’m not seeing stories about people that are helping make it better ... then why should I try?” – Cleo (24:09)
• On audience responsibility:
  • “Most people hear about the future when it has largely been set up by a smaller number of people. And my belief is that if you bring people more into the earlier parts of the conversation ... more people at the beginning of that process is a good thing.” – Cleo (32:06)
• On responding to skepticism and the unknown:
  • “Can you offer more? ... Can you offer anything that allows them to do that thing they do in a direction that has more for them to do it to?” – Cleo (65:45)
• On creative independence:
  • “The bet that YouTube made was incredible ... if we give a platform and split advertising revenue with anyone in the world who could make great things ... that is actually the way that we will get the work that the most people want to watch.” – Cleo (108:18)
• On climbing the right mountain:
  • "It's only when you get to what you have to define as your peak that you stop and go, oh, this is lovely ... what mountains do I want to climb? Do I want to go walk in valleys?" – Trevor (126:45)
• On legacy and the value of new media:
  • “If someone looks at this portal that was Open, which is YouTube ... it's equivalent to a thousand years ago to written and spoken word scrolls ... there's ideas ... Everything that you're speaking about now might be obvious in 100 years, but will never be new again." – Eugene (124:40)
• On creative joy and awe:
  • "My show allows me to have that feeling a lot. I have that feeling a lot about ... planes and vaccines and, you know, the fact that water comes out of a tap when you open it, like, it is ridiculous." – Cleo (88:01)

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Important Segments & Timestamps

[06:34] Balancing virality with responsibility
[07:56 – 09:24] Cleo’s three pillars: Explainer, optimism, visuals
[20:44 – 24:44] Pessimism in the media: NYT "Flying Machines" and its modern relevance
[27:14 – 29:03] AI, pop culture, and trust: African optimism
[30:01 – 31:29] Humor in education, being the audience proxy
[39:04 – 45:23] The complexities of online voting and digital risk
[53:59 – 61:46] Investigating conspiracies, aliens, and channeling curiosity into science
[69:09 – 73:54] Science of curling, hidden mysteries, making "boring" topics fascinating
[94:40 – 98:04] Why go independent? Handling fear and creative control
[108:18 – 111:55] The three mega-trends revolutionizing media
[117:44 – 118:36] Why people are uncomfortable with others going "rogue"
[126:45 – 132:12] Trevor’s mountain analogy: When you finish climbing the “expected” mountains in life

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Episode Tone & Style

As always, the episode is full of banter, playful jabs, and spontaneous humor—Trevor’s signature style keeps things energetic and accessible, even as profound themes are discussed. Eugene acts as both comic relief and “left brain,” while Cleo’s curiosity and optimism radiate throughout, blending humility with deep expertise.

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Summary Conclusion

This thoughtful, laughter-filled episode exemplifies what happens when mission and curiosity trump metrics and conformity in creative work. Cleo Abram’s “Huge If True” is a case study in setting optimistic, rigorous, and visionary standards for modern journalism and education. Trevor’s probing and reflective host style, paired with lively sidekick Eugene, together explore the joys—and challenges—of making new things, leaving mainstream institutions, and embracing the unknown with humor, wonder, and integrity.

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Memorable sign-off:

"Curling in a way that I didn't mean it to be ... She did it again, folks. Cleo's done it again. This was fun. Thank you." – Trevor Noah ([136:03])

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Transcript

[A]

Oh, wait. Let's talk about aliens. Actually, Eugene is a huge fan of aliens.

[B]

I am also alien.

[A]

Have you. Have you discovered anything? Like.

[C]

Currently, we're close to making first contact in the next two years.

[A]

You see? I love it. Now we're at the party. He's just said that.

[C]

Yeah. So there's a guy.

[A]

First. First. First, have your drink and say it. I think it. It sets the scene.

[B]

We're at a party.

[C]

Hey, yeah.

[B]

So, aliens.

[C]

So there's an extraterrestrial being that comes through a guy called Daryl Anchor. Don't you just hate it when your pessimistic friend is a dj?

[A]

This is what Now? With Trevor Noah. All right, Eugene, let's play a little game. You know, make something fun. Two truths and a lie. Here we go. One, I've had to tell a world leader that their fly was undone. Two, when getting dressed, I don't do sock, sock, shoe, shoe. I do sock, shoe, sock, shoe. Three, I've been a Verizon customer for 11 years. What do you think?

[C]

Very confused. First of all, why would a world leader own a fly? Because those things just come uninvited. Secondly, lying to your friends is not cool. There's never been a game.

[A]

No, Eugene, a fly is for, like, the zip is what? And then it's not a lie. It's a game where I'm trying. It's like I give you information. Okay, I lied. All three are true, Eugene. And in case you were thinking, you know, Verizon isn't as expensive as you think. In fact, if you bring in your ATT or T mobile bill, they. They'll give you a better deal. And the reason I've been with them for this long is just because I travel so much. I need a network that's reliable. That's right. A better deal on the best network with the most ways to save on plans, streaming and phone deals. Take your AT&T or T Mobile build to your local Verizon store today. Get your better deal and start saving for real. Based on root metrics. Best overall Mobile Network Performance US Second Half 2025 all rights reserved. You must provide recent consumer mobile bill in the name of person redeeming the deal. Additional terms, conditions and restrictions apply. So do you understand how two truths. And do you understand it now?

[C]

I understand that you didn't have to lie first before telling me that Verizon is the best.

[A]

No, I wasn't lying, Eugene. It's not a lie. I wouldn't lie to you. It's a game.

[C]

Okay?

[A]

I'M sorry I lied. Ah. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. Imagine this. You're at a checkout counter, you're ready to pay when you realize you don't have your wallet. Dun, dun, dun. You could drive all the way back home and you could get it. But you remember that you have your Apple card on your iPhone so you can tap to pay with Apple Pay. Imagine that. No need to carry a wallet. But, you know, one of the things I do like about having my card on my phone is we live in a world where you lose your card and then you don't know where it is. And then you're like, what do I do? Well, if your phone is connected to your card and your card is connected to your phone, you know what's going on. The best thing about having the Apple card connected to your phone is you know what every transaction is. You know, like, sometimes you're like, what did I spend this month? The Apple card will show you one month. I had spent an obscene amount of money ordering videos online.

[C]

Just videos.

[A]

They were just videos.

[C]

What kind of videos?

[A]

That's not the point. The point is I knew that I didn't want to order those videos anymore because I'd spent too much money on was videos on how to not spend money online.

[C]

I felt like I'd been duped.

[A]

Point is, Apple showed me what I was spending my money on and I was able to change my spending habits. And you can do it too. I earn up to 3% daily cash back on every purchase with my Apple card. That's unlimited daily cash back no matter where I shop. Apply for Apple card in the wallet app on your iPhone. Subject to credit approval. Apple card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake Branch terms and more at applecard.com. You take your time. You take your time. You just go ahead and take your time. Every moment, every second you need, you just take it. Do they have that on on YouTube? I know they have subtitles and dubbing, but can you dub to other accents? That would be dope.

[C]

That would be nice.

[A]

We should just have the whole episode in a southern accent.

[B]

They I think you should do that for this episode.

[A]

We really should.

[B]

I think you should ADR it after.

[A]

Just do the whole thing.

[C]

What's adr? I think it's the word techno challenged.

[B]

I actually don't know what I did. What I always hate, which is using an acronym when I don't know what it stands for. I think what ADR means is when they go back in a movie and make the same sounds again when they didn't catch it. Oh, okay, you've acted.

[A]

No, that is adr.

[B]

Is that right?

[A]

Additional dialogue recording. But they should have a name for it when it's over. The other ones, because not additional. This is the same dialogue recording.

[B]

Yeah, Just do it again in a Southern accent.

[A]

It should be called DDR. Duplicate Dialogue Recording.

[B]

And you can upload your own audio files on YouTube.

[A]

What do you mean?

[B]

So you could post the video and then you post another audiophile. And I think you'd have to call it. You'd have to choose a language. I don't think like Southern America.

[A]

I'm actually. We should start doing that. We'll make every episode in another accent as well. Because people, people think of everyone who speaks other languages. But what about other accent speakers? What about them?

[C]

Yeah, no one cares about that.

[A]

We could be doing this whole episode in an English accent. Eugene. I. I say Eugene.

[B]

I couldn't. But you could.

[C]

Yo. But the universal African accent must never see the light of day ever again.

[A]

I'm definitely not.

[C]

Because whoever came up with that universe, because even in Africa. Are you.

[A]

Which accent are you talking about? You see, I can't even like, do it. It's hard.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

That accent, it's in like every movie where there's Africans, but they're not African. Africans hear it.

[B]

But where.

[A]

It's a very. It's a very specific kind of accent. I don't even know how to do it because it's nowhere. You shouldn't know it's nowhere.

[C]

Cuz if you did know.

[B]

Then you.

[A]

No, but do you.

[C]

Do you.

[A]

You know, we were talking about this just before we started recording, and I wonder if you have to think about this, you know, as. As your platform's grown, as you've gotten bigger. Do you have to think about balancing out, like, what you'll do for a view and then what the views will do for the people who are viewing the thing.

[B]

Tell me more about what you mean by that.

[A]

So what we were chatting about earlier is, let's say I'm interviewing somebody on the show, right? We're hanging out here. It's me, Eugene, the person, whoever it is, and say they're a politician. And then you go, like, for instance, we had Zoran on, on the show. And then someone's like, oh, we be cool if you did a thing on Trump and whatever. And then I go, it could be cool and it could be crazy and you could do whatever you want. Right. So I could go off and. And do like, let's say I do, like, a mini roast of Trump or whatever. Here I am with Zoran. So he's like, zoran Mamdani, the mayor of New York. And then you're like, oh, let's play out what happens. Zoran's like, welcome, Zoran. Nice to see you in my office. Mama Danny. Nice to see you.

[B]

Mama.

[A]

Mama Danny. Now, if he joins in and Trump sees that, and Trump gets pissed off and then goes, oh, I'm gonna cut funding for New York. Was it worth it? No, that's my point. Yeah. So now. But I wouldn't have to think that if we only had, like, 50 viewers, then you just do whatever you want.

[B]

Yeah, but you wouldn't feel good about it even if you had 50.

[A]

Oh, I would definitely feel good about it. Do you? How can you not feel good about an act out it?

[B]

Well, I'll just say about my show. I've constructed the whole thing so that it prevents that question. Because the premise of the show is, I'm gonna genuinely explain something to you that's complicated that I want you to understand. I'm gonna do it in a way that is, in the end, optimistic. You're gonna have a specific feeling about, like, oh, there are smart people working on a hard problem, and I can see how we could make this better. And then it's gonna be visual and beautiful and joyful all at the same time. And if it does those three things.

[C]

Visual, beautiful, and joyful, it's.

[A]

That's how I think of Eugene whenever I look at you, Eugene. That's what I think of. I think you are visual, I think you are joyful, and I think you are beautiful.

[B]

That's really beautiful. Not often your hands are warm and mine are cold.

[C]

That was nice. Okay, that's good.

[B]

The three things. No, the three things are genuinely good. Explainer. Genuinely optimistic and visually stunning. A visual piece. And so if it's those three things, then it gets to be on huge. And if it's not one of those things, then it shouldn't be there. And so that perhaps.

[A]

So that's your hiding.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Those are the five characters.

[C]

It's enough.

[B]

Yeah. And if so it's not one of those things, then the pressure is on me and on my team and on. I mean, frankly, the audience now knows, like, what feels like huge and what doesn't. And it's a pressure that counterweights a lot of the other pressures on journalists and on.

[A]

Okay, okay, Got it. Got it.

[B]

Rage, baity. To be pessimistic.

[C]

To be unscrupulous, insensitive, all of those things.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It's a counterweight. And I'm not saying, like, it's perfect every time. We also think a lot about how do I do those three things in a way that millions of people want to watch. So there's absolutely, like, a storytelling element to it, but it strips away a lot of the things that I didn't like as a journalist, that I don't want to watch, that aren't, in the end, helpful for me to actually understand something, make me feel optimistic about the future that I can participate in building and that use the fact that it's a video.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, watching a video requires a lot of your time and attention. It requires your eyes in addition to your ears. And so I think a lot about how do I earn that from my audience. So anyway, if I'm doing those three things, then it should be on the show. And in those moments where, like, you can feel the pressure to do something else because you think it'll spike in viewership.

[A]

I mean, everyone talks about that, everyone who's been involved in YouTube, because I think there's a specific. There's a delineation between the types of content you make when you. When you're making it for, like, what we call, like, mainstream media. Let's say your bosses have already confirmed it, it goes out, it's commissioned, it gets put on TV or in the movies, and then it's done. YouTube, you are the boss. You're making. You're making the decisions. You're putting it out there, you're doing your thing. So in essence, the only driving force behind where it does or doesn't go out is you. Yeah, right. But that means that people. I remember talking to Jake Paul or Logan Paul, I always forget which brother. I think it was Jake. I think it was Jake, but it was. And was interviewing him, and we were talking about his life and his show, and then he talked about how the. The click cycle got him. He did one thing, he. He fell somewhere, he broke something. And the people like more of that, more of that. And they didn't say it verbally, but people loved it. And then him and his team were like, you got to do it again. And then you're jumping off the top of your stairs, the banister in your. In your house, and people like, more, more.

[C]

You're going high and high, and the.

[A]

Next thing you know, you're in, like, you know, a forest, a suicide forest in Japan, and you are looking at yourself going, how Did I get here?

[C]

But stand up has a lot of those elements, right?

[A]

Oh, yeah, definitely.

[C]

Stand up when we first started was just us trying to see how far we can push the envelope.

[A]

Yeah. You're not wrong.

[C]

And then you get one TV gig, and now you have to be careful. You get one endorsement. Now they're like, also. Are you gonna say that for real? Real, real.

[A]

Yeah. But it's almost the other way around. Funny enough with stand up, now that you mention it, it's almost like stand up, they. They almost calm you down in a way. Cause as standups, what we're trying. You see, like, your rules. I don't know about all standups, but, like, I can say for myself and this gentleman seated across from me, this fine squire right here across from me, I would say it's like, if we think of our rules, you go, do we find it interesting?

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do we think it's funny?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Then that's it. It's as simple as. It doesn't matter where it goes and how it goes. You're trying to break everything.

[B]

You're trying to do those things that, you know, the audience might like that you don't think are funny, that you think are just not. They don't make you feel good.

[A]

Yes, that would.

[B]

That. That helps a lot, that feeling. Like, for me, it's these three criteria. I've come up with this spec, and it helps to have a. I think what I'm. What I'm really coming to in this is it really helps to have a mission.

[A]

Oh, I like that.

[B]

It really, really helps. These criteria are part of the overall mission of the show, which is, in my case. And everyone chooses their own how My mission is. I make this show so I can show people with those three criteria, explain to them things in an optimistic way, in a visually beautiful way. I make this show so I can show people visions of the future, because I believe that if they see those visions in an optimistic way, they can help build them. So my goal. I'm not an engineer, I'm not a scientist. My goal is to present who's working on hard things and how are they doing it, and what could it potentially do and how could it go wrong and how could it go right? And make a optimistic explainer video that helps people see. If you're watching it in the audience, and maybe you are someone who could help, and I believe that everybody can, in their own way, you can help participate in making that better somehow.

[C]

I look at people like you with a mission, and I go, why do you care?

[B]

Well now we could get into all kinds of, you know, my. The way that I grew up and why I want to do this work.

[A]

Then let's do it.

[B]

Let's do it. I'm happy to. Let's do it.

[C]

We're not.

[A]

I like how you said it, like we don't have an option. You're like, oh, well then I got to get into. You've come to the right place. Why did you get it? Cuz I remember when I. So I. I'll give you a bit of context. When I first came across your work. I had just started on the Daily Show. So I joined the Daily show in 2015, right when Jon Stewart was still around. And so I was just a correspondent. John would phone me, be like, come and do this funny thing. I'll be like, yeah. And then we'd leave. And then, you know what I mean? Back and forth, back and forth. John announces he's leaving, they find a new host. The host happens to be me. I've shrunk the process down. But before I was gonna host the show, I went through this like, I wanna say like six, seven month period of just, I mean, like gorging on every piece of content that I could. Cause I just had to learn about this new country and this new place, but from the inside, you know, so what's the news? Where's the news coming from? And then America's unique. And I guess now it's not as unique as it was at that time. In that the news doesn't just come from one place.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, so we grew up where it was like, did you watch the news? Yes, I watched the news. And then now here it's like, which news?

[C]

Whose news? Whose news?

[A]

Who said it's the news. So now I'm watching all news, collecting all news. And I remember coming across your work and at the time it was on vox, right? Yeah. And VOX was this new platform that had come out and they were explaining stuff and they made the news digestible. And let me tell you, if there's somebody who needed stuff explained, this guy right here. Cause I was like, what is a filibuster? Wait, what is happening? Who's passing the gerrymandering? Who's Gerry? Why is he mandering? What is going on here? I was like, what is happening in this country? And you know, the funny thing is Americans will make it seem like they know what's happening.

[C]

Yeah. They make it look like everything is normal.

[A]

Yeah. And then when you find out about it and then you ask most Americans, they'll be like, I actually don't. I actually don't. And not in, like, a shit way. It's just there's so many intricate little details to the system. And that's when I came across your work. You're making these videos, making these videos, making these videos. And it was doing pretty well. And then you. You just left. And you left when things were going well at VOX and you were just gone.

[C]

This is the best time to leave anything.

[A]

I mean, that's the craziest.

[C]

There. You have to. You really have to wait for workman's camp.

[A]

Leave your marriage. You choose advice. Leave your marriage on a high. Make sure to leave your marriage on a high. Honey, can I just say, I am having the best time ever with. I love you so much. I love you so much. I'm leaving. What? Yeah, I mean, I just figured Kachin's advice. So take us through who wasn't like that.

[C]

No.

[A]

So let's go back. Let's try and understand, I think, as Eugene eloquently pointed out, how do we get to the core of this person who wants to make things that are optimistic and informative and visually beautiful in a world where you get more reward for making things that are negative and rage baity and. Cause you could have a big show on YouTube doing that. You could go, let me show you why the hadron collider's gonna kill all of us. Let me show you why dinosaurs are gonna come back and kill all of us. Let me show you why asteroids are gonna kill all of you. Could make that. And I think it would maybe do slightly better than what you currently have.

[B]

In the very short term, maybe.

[A]

Oh, I like this. So let's go down a rabbit hole.

[C]

You're good.

[A]

How do we meet you at this point? What happened in your life that made you this person?

[B]

So I was. If we rewind all the way back. I was a kid who. I grew up in Washington, D.C. and my parents were both lawyers, and my mom was working for Congress, and my dad was a litigator, and he did a lot of death penalty cases. And we would talk about these things. We would talk about my homework, and we would talk about their work at the dinner table. And I. Both of my parents were the kind of people where if I gave them something that I had written, they would, like, cross out the lines really brutally and say, like, there's a simpler way to say this. Like, you can always say it in a simpler way that people can better understand.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

And my dad, in these. These cases that he would work on, I really saw as a young kid how if you can explain something complicated in a way that 12 normal people can understand, you can actually save someone's life, like, in a real way. Like, that's what he was demonstrating when I was a kid. And. And I guess that lesson stuck with me. It's hard sometimes. It's easier now to draw lines from, you know, what you did. Oh, yeah. Like, now I see how that's connected. At the time, like, it was just a thing that I knew. And I grew up, and I go to college and I graduate, and I begin working at Vox vox. And VOX at the time was doing explainer journalism, which I loved. And I'll shorten the story somewhat, but.

[A]

No, no, no, there's no rush. There's no rush here. We were fully in.

[B]

Great.

[A]

You only need to start. Eugene does the Y, then we.

[B]

I'll look for it.

[A]

It's a very special. It's a very special type of yawn that Eugene has. It's fake, but it works well on people.

[B]

I'll.

[A]

I'll show you an example now. I'm. I'm gonna tell you about my morning, and then I'll show you. I'll show you how Eugene just gently lets you know that it's time to move on. So this morning, guys, I. I wanted to have oats. And you know how sometimes your oats, you know, sometimes your oats are like.

[C]

I don't need you in my life. No, please, go on.

[A]

Go on.

[B]

So I. We can come back to my journey inside Box, because I started on the business side, and then I began.

[C]

We're here for it all.

[B]

I'll promise. But fast forward to. I'd been working as a journalist for a couple years, and I'd been covering technology. I'd been making things for Explained on Netflix, which is a wonderful show that Vox made. Very intricate deep dives into different things that matter in the world. I had made one on computer programming and one on Diamonds Explained, which are really fun to work on.

[C]

I've seen that one.

[B]

Really?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's awesome.

[C]

We talked about artificial diamonds versus.

[A]

Yeah, we went through real diamond.

[B]

The sentiment, the beers, and then the history of, like, why.

[C]

Controlling the market.

[B]

Yes. And then we ended on artificial diamonds. It was so fun to make. I love doing that.

[C]

I love that. It was so good.

[B]

Thank you.

[C]

It made me feel smart because I was like, oh, there is a. Yeah, okay.

[B]

Thank you.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So I've been working on Vox in that way. But I also was a person who loves learning about technology. And I was looking at my media diet and I was really unhappy with it. I was really frustrated. And I think to boil down, the reason that I was frustrated was I felt like there was this knee jerk pessimism in the news that I was consuming that was preventing me from understanding what was really happening in the world and also understanding how I could participate in making the world a better place.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I, in doing some research, I happened upon an article. I was looking through the New York Times archive for reporting reasons, and I found an article from 1903. October 9, 1903. And it was called Flying Machines which do not Fly. Like, you can go into the New York Times archive and find this article. It talks about how we will basically never have planes. It talks about how.

[A]

When is this?

[B]

This is 1903.

[A]

We will never have planes.

[B]

We'll never have planes. They basically say it boils down to, if it took birds thousands of years to develop evolutionarily the ability to fly, it'll take humans millions of years. And it ends. My favorite line in this piece, I still remember it is something like, good luck. It basically is like, the effort might be employed more profitably or something. It was 1903, they were writing.

[A]

Yeah, that's beautiful.

[B]

And so basically they were saying, like, do other things. This will never work.

[C]

Effort might be employed profitably elsewhere.

[B]

Profitably elsewhere, yeah. October 9, 1903. December 17, 1903. Two months later was when the Wright brothers took their first assistant point. Yeah, two months later. And I looked at that and I put the timeline together and I was like, what? Like, that matters to me somehow. Like, something is wrong here. We've been doing this. And it felt similar to what we were doing today. It wasn't just like a thing they did in 1903. This was like a knee jerk pessimism about new technologies or dreams or scientific efforts. Oh, that won't work. Or once it starts to work, oh, people won't want it. Or this will go really, really wrong. And there's no way it'll help people. This is only gonna hurt people. And I looked at that and I thought, like, first, this isn't a modern thing. I feel like it's been getting worse for reasons we can talk about, but, like, this has been happening. Look at this article from 1903. But then also, why does that matter? Like, why care? Maybe the media is generally a little bit pessimistic. Maybe there's also this, like, hype cycle that happens sometimes and that's also a problem. And so altogether, like, why is this really a problem? Why should I start some new show that's going to offer something different? You know, And I think there are two problems with that, that pessimism. The first is that it stops the conversation from getting interesting. Like, if I tell you airplanes, they just won't work, we'll have like a five minute conversation about why airplanes won't work. Yeah, but you'll never get to the conversation about like, wait, if they work, that means that people are going to start living in different places than their families. That means that people are going to start traveling to other countries. That means that global trade is going to fundamentally change a lot in the next hundred years. Like, if you told grandfather what that was gonna look like and just the, I mean, he was alive when planes existed, but like just the absolute skyrocketing of the commercial airline industry. That would have been a fascinating conversation if you, if you'd said, like, let's just assume that it works for the purpose of this conversation. That's basically what I try and do on my show. And let's assume all the ways in which it could go, you know, awry. Like, okay, now we can have a conversation about CO2 emissions, now we can have a conversation about like the impacts of tourism, you know, like. But you only get to those conversations about real problems when you assume that it's gonna work and you don't have that pessimism. So that's the first reason. And then the second reason, the thing that was really frustrating me was there's this kind of, maybe it's a nihilism that takes hold when people don't believe that the world can get better and that they can help make that happen. It's like if the world is just getting worse and I can't do anything about it, and I'm not seeing stories about people that are helping make it better. And I'm not imagining technologies like quantum comput, for example. I'm only imagining the ways in which they're gonna be a security problem and not the ways in which they're gonna help develop new medicines and new materials. Then I like, why do I, why should I try? Why shouldn't I just be very self interested?

[C]

And like, pessimism coupled with helplessness always goes well together.

[B]

That's a much more succinct way to put it.

[C]

Yeah, like that's it.

[A]

Yeah, you just scratched out the thing and you just felt like, bam. Pessimism combined with helplessness is bad.

[B]

Go do your homework. I'm trying to do the opposite.

[C]

You know, I, I, I often find that a healthy amount of pessimism is a good catalyst for people to act. So you've often, you've often heard people who are very successful talking about the teacher that told them they'll never amount to anything.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Then we have that conversation in hindsight of them being successful and the teacher seemingly being pessimistic and, and negative.

[B]

Yeah, they were reacting to it.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

But they had to have the optimism, right? Like, they had to, like, push off against something.

[C]

They never speak about the optimism that they had to have to push against the pessimism.

[A]

Yeah, that's, that's true. But I sometimes think to myself, in that same situation, to what you're saying, I think a more positive catalyst is one that sort of prompts your optimism as opposed to, you know, because I think of how many people are defeated by that, that statement. You will never, you'll never amount to anything. You'll never be anything. You'll never go anywhere. I think it works on a lot of people. Because if your teacher's telling you that, who knows you better?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you know what I mean? If someone's like, hey, I've been looking at your body of work from the age of 8 to 11, yo, man, this shit's not gonna work out for you in life.

[C]

But teachers never say that. No, they say, remember that teacher is per grade. Because people always remember one snippet of their school career where one teacher said that. And it's very rare that you go with a teacher from grade zero.

[A]

No, we went with, like, in primary school. We like.

[C]

So the same teacher said this to you for 12 years?

[A]

You met them, literally.

[C]

What evil teacher did you have?

[A]

No, but this is what I'm trying to say to you.

[B]

We all knew that.

[A]

And there was always, like, that teacher. Everyone knew them as that teacher. Do you get what I'm saying?

[C]

Wherever they catch you, they'll tell you.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The number of people who must have been inspired also by a teacher who said, by the way, have you ever considered that you could do this? I've actually heard more stories like that in the end of Teachers. When I think about my life, I think about the teachers who said, oh, you're very interested in this. Have you read this book? Have you, like, done that? They're sort of fueling you in this way. And I sometimes think of the show that we now make. The show is called Huge. If True that I left VOX to Make this show independently on YouTube. And I think about it like that, I think about it like offering a menu of stories and options and futures that could come true to people that might be able to help make them happen, or to an audience that just wants to understand what they could potentially do with their lives and with their time or with their free time.

[A]

You take for granted how powerful that is because I don't know if you've seen any of the polls that people have conducted around AI Right? When they ask the general public what do you think of AI? And not like how it's being applied now, just AI as a concept, the sentiment is generally negative. Like you go, would you trust machines? Would you trust an all powerful AI? Do you think it would be good for humanity? Without fail, a majority of the population says no, it won't be good for us, it's gonna kill us, it's gonna take over, it's gonna do. You know what I mean? It's also interesting that most of those people have had their views shaped by the images of AI that they had growing up. So they watched Terminator, they were watching Star wars, they were watching. So they go like, oh no, there's only one path that technology can take.

[C]

It only goes this way.

[A]

Yeah, it can only go this way and it can kill you. And an interesting poll that I saw the other day, and I was shocked by this, is people in Africa generally have a more positive attitude towards artificial general intelligence than people in the western world.

[C]

Yeah. Cause people in Africa deal with racism for a long time.

[A]

You see you my man.

[C]

And that was man made intelligence.

[A]

You see you my man. Try artificial. But I think Eugene is the other half of my brain. You know when people like your left brain, right brain, I'm like Eugene. But it's true. No, but it's exactly what you're saying, Right. It's interesting how people who have assumed that the intelligence will be built around them and their histories and their pasts now think that that same technology will go on to do to them what they did to others. But then the people who were only on like the receiving end in recent history of a thing go like, oh.

[C]

Yeah, any change is good change.

[A]

They could be like, maybe this will work.

[C]

Yeah. Cuz it also puts us in an equal footing. I look at wars the same.

[A]

Oh damn, I didn't think about that.

[C]

You don't know. I don't know. Let's see what this thing can do for us.

[A]

AI would be the white people of everyone.

[C]

Yes, yes, yes. Cuz that hey, You want?

[B]

I do. You noticed I was feeling a little.

[C]

She wants a dip. Leah, you have to take us seriously. Please continue with your point.

[A]

Actually, actually, that is a question. That is a question that I have. And maybe it's because I'm comedy biased. It's just because of my brain. It's not like how I. I don't choose to have this filter on the world. But you also have humor in your content. You also do.

[B]

I. I don't think. I mean, I'm not funny. Like, you guys are funny.

[A]

No, no, no, but I promise you there's humor in it. Like when I was watching your asteroid video, it's funny. Like the fact that you have Mark Rober voicing an asteroid. That's a funny thing to do. To be talking about the potential destruction of Earth and then use a funny person's voice on the video. That's funny. You know when you're talking about, like when you're doing the dinosaurs one and you're going around with the archaeologists and you're brushing, There were funny moments in that.

[B]

No, you've really watched the show. This is awesome.

[A]

Wow. Why would I invite you here if I hadn't watched the show? Well, that would be a weird thing to do. Just be like, come and.

[B]

No, but you've, like, seen. You remember. This is great. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But you're right, you know why? Because you teach well. Genuinely. Because you teach well. It's easy to consume, it's easy to digest, and it's engaging. But I remember the funny moments, even with, like, the hadron collider, all your.

[C]

Key pillars have been ticked.

[A]

Or when you, like when you were showing the. The quantum computer, I was just like, the size of it, the scale, but the jokes in between are something that, that I found myself fascinated by. I was like, why? Why bring humor into something that most people go, this is. This is the future of mankind. There's no time for jokes. But you're bringing jokes in.

[B]

I think it's. It's also that I'm. I'm the proxy for the audience. Like, I know very little. I know how to tell a great story. I'm a really, really good visual storyteller, but I'm not an expert in anything that I'm talking about. And so that requires me to come in by understanding. Like, I'm the secondary character. The topic is the primary character.

[A]

Oh, damn.

[B]

My goal, like, why learn from me about quantum computers? You learn from a Quantum physicist on YouTube. Like, why am I there? The reason I'm There is. So that I'm a proxy for the audience. I'm, like, having fun with it, like you might have. I'm asking the questions that you might ask. I'm there to recontextualize what the expert is saying, to kind of like translate for them a little bit. Like, that's the magic of what we do. Because the problem with that first bucket that we talked about, the feeling of like, oh, pessimism ends the conversation. Explainers that are too complicated, like, they're just not. They don't bring people in. The problem with that is you end up in a place where I think, unfortunately, despite the fact that HUGE is growing really quickly, like, we're small compared to, you know, mainstream media, the. The place that we're in is one where, like most people hear about the future when it is, has largely been set up by a smaller number of people. And my belief is that if you bring people more into the earlier parts of the conversation, if you say, like, we're going to need to learn about quantum computers now, though, you're, you know, not actually interacting with them anytime soon. More people at the beginning of that process is a good thing. More people, to your point about AI, more people are helping to build that system. If you show them what it is at the beginning, versus saying, oh, it won't work. Oh, don't worry about it. Oh, this is not something that's going to be accepted, not something that people are going to want. It's not going to be a, you know, maybe it'll change the world, but just you should be scared of it. That posture means that you are less likely to participate in helping it go right. And so that's something I think a lot about, like, how can I make it fun enough and good enough and entertaining enough so that you want to be a part of it earlier in the process? So, like now, when you go about your day, you understand something about what we've discovered about dinosaurs, you understand something about CRISPR or quantum computers or supersonic planes. Like, maybe you won't work on those things tomorrow, but maybe there's some way in which that is part of your life and you at least know about these topics and you're having conversations that are interesting and you're more a part of it than you would be otherwise. I believe that having more people understand complicated issues means that more people will participate in making sure that they go right. That's what I'm trying to do on my show.

[A]

I like that you say that. I was in Washington State And I was at an event where we're working with Microsoft on basically getting AI into schools, having kids learn, teachers learn, whatever. And they set up this program where the teachers are advising on it. So they're going, this is what we actually need AI to do. So don't just give us AI. This is what we need you to help AI or make AI do for teachers. You know, so it's lesson plans, it's helping them mark and grade and all perfect teachers aid. Exactly. It's supposed to be that, not a teacher. Right, exactly. And then they were like. And then parents were also like, this is what we need AI to do. And we're at this launch event and I'll never forget this moment. One of the student journalists comes up and at the end of like, all the other like, journalist journalists, they've all asked their questions and then this student journalist comes up and then asks the president of Microsoft, Brad Smith, goes, hey, I see that you've got this panel convened that's going to be doing all of this in the schools. Do you have any students on your panel?

[B]

That's an amazing question.

[A]

And all of us in the room were, you know, where you're like, huh, all of us. And then Brad, to his credit, was like, no, I didn't think about that. And why don't we. And then literally on the spot was like, oh, yeah, we gotta do this. But to your point, that's awesome. Even in that moment, I found myself going, oh, yeah, you take for granted how we are constantly building futures but not engaging all the people that the futures are being built for. And then when we get there, we're going to be like, how did we miss this? And it's like, yeah, but did you just ask everyone? Did you ask everyone what they like, Eugene, what do you need from AI? What do you want AI to do for you? Do you know what AI is? Let me start with this because Eugene is very. Eugene is my Luddite. Eugene is fully my Luddite friend.

[C]

I. I always compare everything new with how things were before there was technology. So I hear what you're saying and I hear what he's saying and I combine it to before there was technology to disperse information and get people into doing something for the collective good without sometimes general understanding of it is wars. So a few men would decide this is the greater cause for what we're doing this. And then there'd be conscription. So you don't have to understand fully why we're doing this thing, which is going to make you do it. So while you're at this thing, you might discover some people might make it, some people might not. But you look at the ones that came back from wars and how many industries were built. It's always been an accelerant for technology, for ideas, for industries, for businesses, customizing cars, building technology, weapons, private jets. It's always because of something huge, catastrophic that happened that included conscription. And I guess once you add a little bit of pessimism in there, you can find a lot of ideas when people push back, because people just usually go with something. So I like. What I like with explainers is it always starts with, have you ever wondered why? But then you have to stick around to the end to go, what are you going to do about it? So that usually in now normal society you have. It's elections. You have to wait to choose, to almost feel like you have a choice because you've seen what happened in the last four years.

[A]

Did you see. Sorry to interrupt. Did you see that thing in. I forget where this is. In Canada, I think they had an election or they're planning to have one where everyone can just vote on their phones from home.

[C]

Yes. Like full on.

[B]

We did an explainer about digital voting, mobile voting, like full on. Turns out it's extremely difficult from an encryption perspective.

[A]

Wait, same. Why?

[B]

So this was a little while ago, so I don't want to butcher this too much, but the question I went into the story with is why don't we all just vote on our phones?

[A]

I love this question.

[B]

Wouldn't it be great? And wouldn't it make for a more participatory democracy?

[A]

Sounds good to me.

[B]

But I generally believe more people voting is good.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Let's make it easier to vote.

[C]

Love it.

[A]

I'm in.

[B]

And so I went and I talked.

[C]

I'm not a fan of total outright democracy.

[B]

Maybe we should start there.

[C]

I'm like, some people don't deserve a voice.

[B]

We'll talk about that later. We should come back to that.

[A]

Oh, man.

[C]

As you were.

[B]

Anyway, for the purpose of this.

[C]

Okay, okay. For the shop.

[B]

So I went and I asked all of these encryption experts. And so we talked to folks that were working on mobile voting. We also talked to people that deeply oppose mobile voting. We should not do that. That's a really bad idea. And I wanted to understand why. What it boils down to is that voting is not like online banking. It is not like the secure things that you do online.

[A]

Okay, and why is that?

[B]

Couple reasons. The first is that everything you do online accepts some Level of fraud. Because the banks are basically backstopping a certain amount of fraud to make it easy for you to log in and. And do transactions and all those things. They accept that there will be some.

[C]

Level of acceptable risk.

[B]

Of acceptable risk. And that level has to be below the friction that they would have to put on you to make it less risky.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So they just have to mean, like, more activity that makes them more money versus the amount of fraud that they have to pay for.

[A]

Okay. So if I was to, like, dumb this down for myself, it's the equivalent of like a clothing store going, we'll only put a certain amount of detectors on the clothing to make it safe to determine.

[B]

So you'll buy more.

[A]

Yeah, but we can't cover the thing in detectors because then you won't want to try it on. You won't see the thing. So we have to accept a certain amount of risk to have you comfortable in the buying space.

[C]

And what items in the store are we putting detectors on?

[A]

Aha. Okay. Got it.

[B]

Got it. Let's do this all the time.

[A]

Okay, Got it.

[B]

We can't accept that in voting because the small amount of risk in. Especially in the way that we vote in the United States with such small pockets where it matters a lot, you can't accept any amount of risk that way. And also, philosophically, we don't believe that you should. The idea, if you try to explain to people that, like, we're gonna accept some voter fraud because more people can vote.

[A]

I mean, in America's elections are basically like 50, 50 at this point. So if you have like a 3, 4%, that's not good. Oh, damn.

[B]

So you can't accept.

[A]

You accept, she's fantastic. I'm in. This is fantastic.

[B]

It would help more if we had the visuals. We could have a map. We could have like a. You know, I guess I do speak English the way that you are.

[C]

Sounds good.

[B]

So that's reason number one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Reason number two is that it's just like nothing else on earth when you have global powers that want to affect each other's outcomes. Like, we are not talking about stealing a million dollars, $100 million. We're talking about China and Russia and the United States trying to impact each other's elections. This is stakes like nothing else that exists at all. And so when you talk about that, like, the way that these encryption experts talk about mobile voting, it's like the things that would have to withstand are like nothing you've ever experienced online. Like, there's nothing in the world that matters as much as the outcome of the elections of the most powerful countries.

[C]

It makes absolute sense. Because if you think of online versus physical voting, you are more susceptible to whims if you vote online than you would if you physically.

[B]

Maybe there's a. Maybe there's a change in the way that there's.

[C]

Because you might be sitting on your couch feeling a certain way, and then that might determine how you vote. But if you have to get up, take a day off, go queue, I.

[B]

Think that would be.

[A]

Now I'm going to vote worse.

[B]

Yeah, that would be an option.

[A]

You just don't want me to stay at home. Why are you doing this to me? Also, why are you doing this to me? Now when I get up, now when I go, I might change my vote. Vote on the way there where I'm like, it's a terrible day about the really terrible day.

[C]

Not after you've. My man. Have you seen the conversation that happens at queues when you're about to vote?

[A]

That's another reason. I don't want that. Because now people are talking to each other about voting.

[C]

Yes. Who should they talk to?

[A]

Nobody. Your vote.

[B]

See, now we're having a good debate. Cause we're assuming it could work. We're talking about.

[C]

Yeah, I think anything that you're struggling for will make it worth it. So if you're standing in a queue in the snow and you're about to make a decision around other people who took the same decision as you to get out.

[B]

Hold on. There is research. There's research on the fact that it's like a community builder. That's a separate. That's a separate argument. That's a separate, separate argument that I generally.

[C]

Make up your mind, whose side are you on?

[B]

Hold on.

[A]

She's not on anybody's side. That's what makes her good. She's encouraging discourse.

[C]

Eugene.

[B]

Boo. Okay, one more interesting thing about voting is also the ways that you would have these countries hack voting. Yeah, I didn't really understand what I was talking about. I was thinking like in like a cyberpunk movie where you like, see, you know, then there would be a glitch and someone in the US Would notice the glitch and like there would be a hack. Right, right. A lot of these encryption experts were like, listen, the way that they would do this is like, we already know that in districts, if it rains, it marginally affects voting for the outcome of older people, and those people are more likely to vote this way. And then all of a sudden, because it Rained that one district that affect this one state, that affects the electoral college, that affects this all of a sudden. And so what they would do. This gave me the heebie jeebies when they said it. He was like, you could imagine a foreign power just digitally making it rain in just the right places. And we would never notice cloud seeding. And I was like, making it like digital cloud. Like, digitally making it rain. Like, I'm making it. The lag time on the screen. They could make it a little bit longer, and that would mean that fewer people would vote and you'd never notice. Or the login maybe they would make it mess up a couple times. And that would affect older people in particular. It's just little things on the edges. And then you'd have an outcome that you didn't expect.

[C]

The politics would have very little to do with.

[A]

That's literally how I keep Eugene out of my house when I don't want.

[C]

You to visit me.

[A]

I'll just like, I'll make the lock a little tighter. I'll jam the door a little bit more.

[B]

And he never. And he never. He hasn't.

[A]

And then some days he just doesn't. I'll be like, yeah, come over anytime. And then he'll be there. But. But you know what?

[C]

It makes so much sense.

[A]

That is crazy to think about it. Like, that is like, so you go down.

[B]

The way that we did this episode was you go down this rabbit hole and you're like, okay, what are. These are all brilliant people that I'm talking to that have thought about this their whole lives. This. These are all the reasons why you wouldn't want it. I'm like, okay, but. But you could, right? Like, this isn't. I've talked to people who are building rockets. Like, this isn't rocket science. Like, you. You could do this, right? Like, there's. There has to be some. And so I'm. I'm pushing, like, optimistically, like, this could work, right? And so then you get into the. The area of science that's a little bit more boring. And I won't talk tell you all about it, but, like, how would they do it? What are the encryption strategies? There are people that are working on this that could do it in a way that. Where you would notice the digital reign. There's real effort here. And there are experiments, as you said. There are countries that are experimenting with it. There are places where they're trying to make this easier. And I think. I mean, the episode ends with. It's worth the effort to Try. Here are all of the reasons why it's way harder than you think. And it's not just like, oh, I bank online. I should vote online. But we believe that more people voting is a good thing. You could be part of a future that allows that to happen. Like, here are all the smart people working on this hard problem. And so you don't end the story with, oh, it's way harder than you think. You end the story with, oh, here are all the smart solutions. It's ongoing. If you want to participate, you absolutely should.

[A]

Don't go anywhere because we got more what now? After this. This episode is brought to you by our friends at SurveyMonkey. You know, there's a very specific kind of bravery in business. And by bravery, I mean terrifying uncertainty. Think about it. Right now, there are people making massive, life altering decisions based entirely on a vibe, just a feeling in their gut. But what if you actually knew the truth? What if you knew your direct reports weren't just nodding along, but actually had thoughts they were too polite to say? Or that your best customers were already halfway out the door to a competitor? Because, let's face it, we'd like to say follow your heart. But in business, ignorance is just a very expensive hobby. SurveyMonkey takes the fear out of asking and the doubt out of deciding. It's the difference between walking into a meeting with a hunch and walking in with 500 validated opinions, which mathematically is much better for your blood pressure. The truth might hurt for a second, but it's a lot cheaper than being wrong. So let's get you a survey and some actual answers. Sign up for an annual [e-mail] whatnow and use code whatnow for two months free. That's two months free with code. What now? @surveymonkey.com whatnow you know, Eugene, I don't know about you, man, but sometimes planning a romantic evening is one of the most stressful things because there's that specific type of performance art that comes with a romantic night out. You know, it's like you're sitting in a restaurant and you realize you've just paid a premium to have a room of strangers watch you eat bread while you try and have a private conversation. It's exhausting. You know what I mean?

[C]

It is.

[A]

But I realized recently, if you want to skip the theater and the crowds, Whole Foods Market is the place to plan the perfect indulgent and romantic evening at home. Picture this. You see you skip the extra trip to the flower shop and instead you Explore the Whole Foods Market floral department full of gorgeous quality flowers with large blooms, vibrant colours and strong stems. Bunches, bouquets and even vase arrangements are available. Why stop there? We can also skip the dinner reservation, start our sizzling hot evening in the kitchen. Just us. We could serve a surf and turf made with quality, no antibiotic ever. Steaks, plus seafood that must be sustainable, wild, caught or responsibly farmed. We'll then pair that dinner with a bottle of wine from the incredibly in depth Whole Foods Market selection. Say cheers with a sparkling rose. Or choose ready to drink cocktails. Must be 21 or older. Please drink responsibly. Taste the love all month at Whole Foods Markets. By the way, that wasn't our date. I just got carried away and then your hand was there and then.

[C]

I totally understand. But, you know, like they say, there's no free dinners. Clearly.

[A]

No, you don't owe me anything. You cheat. We didn't even have the dinner.

[C]

I'm 41.

[B]

Hi, I'm Kaitlin Coleman, winner of Target's HBCU design challenge. This challenge moved me closer to my dream of becoming a fashion designer. Through mentorship and support, you can find my design, along with creations from other black founders, in Target's Black History Month collection.

[A]

You know what I just realized? You must be both the most fun and irritating person at a party.

[C]

That's why she comes in early. And comes in early and leaves early.

[A]

No, no. You know why?

[C]

Because.

[A]

People love speaking to other people who know things. They love it until those people actually know things. That's what I've learned.

[B]

No, but I don't know anything.

[A]

No, no, but you do. You see, you do. Because let's say we were at a party. Now we're all standing around with our drinks, right? And we're all having this conversation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. So how do you know you did? Yeah. Then I'm like, you know the election, I think they should vote. You saw in Canada, they're gonna. They're gonna do the digital voting. Then you go like, oh, yeah, actually they did. They did a thing on the. Then we're like, no, but the thing. And then you. Encryption, encryption, Encryption, encryption, encryption. Facts, facts, facts, facts, facts, data, experts, spoken to, et cetera. And then someone would be like, I'm gonna go.

[B]

I'm gonna go get out of context.

[A]

I'm. Go get another.

[B]

In a party. I promise. I know. Ish.

[A]

No, I wouldn't. If I were you, I'd keep doing it. I'm just saying, because we live in a World where, let's be honest, we live in a world where. What you said earlier really struck me. You said, I'm not an expert. I don't know anything. And I go, that's a strange level of humility for you to approach this sphere with. Because you do know things, because you've learned on it from the experts. And I always go, like, knowledge is from someone. You know what I mean? There's very few people who make original knowledge alone. Everyone takes from somewhere. Takes from somewhere. Takes from some. The expert. And then when you read. Even if you read those textbooks, I love. You know when you go down to the footnotes and they're like, oh, yeah, this guy said that part. And that person said. And she said that. And that person and that person. And from who. You're always taking me into weird words.

[C]

Highly intelligent extraterrestrial beings called the Anunnaki.

[A]

Oh, I don't even know what that is.

[C]

Yeah. Anyway.

[A]

Oh, wait. Let's talk about aliens. Actually, Eugene is a huge fan of aliens.

[B]

I am also alien.

[A]

Have you. Have you discovered anything?

[C]

Apparently we're close to making first contact in the next two years.

[A]

You see, I love it. Now we're at the party. He's just said that.

[C]

Yeah. So there's a guy.

[A]

First, first. First have your drink and say it. I think it sets the scene.

[B]

We're at a party.

[A]

Hey, yeah.

[B]

So, aliens.

[C]

So there's an extraterrestrial being that comes through a guy called Daryl Anka. Don't you just hate it when your pessimistic friend is a dj?

[B]

We shouldn't have put him in charge of the music. You were saying?

[C]

I think I encouraged him to start. Now look at me. So there's this being that comes through him. It's been doing this for the last 20, 30 years. It's called Bashar. So Bashar a couple of years ago.

[A]

Are you ready for a Eugene explainer, by the way?

[B]

I'm sorry, are we talking about like, Daryl Anka? The real world?

[C]

She channels Bashar seminars. Guys, am I the only one who knows about Bashar and spirit box at the same time?

[A]

So explain there, Eugene, please. This is. This is one of Eugene's favorite YouTube channels.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

So is this like a.

[C]

Like spirit box and Bashar are two different things, but we'll go into spirit box later.

[A]

And are they.

[B]

I'll ask. I'll ask this the way that my five year old niece. What I like. Is this the pretend world or is.

[C]

This the real world? Okay, but with some level of Pretend.

[A]

I'm going to pull this up in the meantime while he describes it, then I'm going to play it for you.

[C]

So Bashar has been. I mean. I mean, Darl Anka has been channeling this being from another planet psychically called Bashar. Right? So Daryl does this, and then Bashar five years ago predicted that in the next coming years, we're going to start seeing things that we can't explain in the sky. So those are different levels of aliens that will start making contact. And then two years ago, a year ago, we started seeing drones that people couldn't explain, governments couldn't explain, phenomena that was happening globally at the same time that people couldn't explain. And then he said, two years from now, we're gonna start seeing more contact, human contact with aliens. And I believe it.

[B]

I was gonna go a different route with this.

[C]

Tell me.

[B]

But wait, wait.

[A]

Before you do, I'll. I'll play you. I'll play you. This is a. I guess JonBenet Ramsay.

[B]

Spirit, I'm pretty sure when we were talking.

[C]

So start with Pasha. Spirit box is something else.

[A]

Oh, I don't. I don't know.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

I only remember because it, like, made.

[C]

My life say Pashar.

[A]

Okay, hold on, hold on.

[C]

But then you.

[B]

Are we sure we should be giving this more airtime?

[C]

We can just.

[A]

We can just. We can just bleep them all.

[C]

Remember, when you're worried about your digital diet.

[A]

Actually, wait, wait, no. So now let me. Let me ask you, as. As somebody who loves science, who explores, who go. How do you delve into a topic like this? This is a good moment. So let's say we were in the office now. Eugene had just pitched you. Well, we did this because it's huge if it's true.

[C]

It is.

[A]

If somebody can speak.

[B]

The show is called Huge if true.

[A]

If somebody can speak across, like, dimensions to aliens.

[B]

And also, I mean, I think the thing that I really like to do when I hear things that, with all due respect, may or may not be true.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Is you take that and you say, okay, what are people interested in here? And how can I show you the way in which the science that I'm confident is at least going through the scientific process is more interesting for the reasons you are interested in this than a sort of fictional world ever could be. So, for example, people are really interested in the Large Hadron Collider at cern. There are a lot of conspiracy theories about it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

The real Large Hadron Collacy theories. Oh, they think it's gonna Tear a hole in the universe. They think there's a lot of, like.

[A]

It'Ll create a black hole.

[B]

Devil worship kind of thing. Yeah, the sort of pseudoscientific, but also, like, more spiritual as well. That this is wrong somehow, that we shouldn't be playing God. There's, like, a lot of, like, centralizing.

[C]

Stargate kind of stuff. Opening a portal for things to come in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, like, all of that. Also, like, there have been a couple of instances in which, like, people have played into this. Like, there were a couple students who pulled a prank where they were, like, dressed up a certain way and, like, did a sort of chanting.

[A]

Oh, man.

[B]

That wasn't ideal, but it got a lot of headlines.

[C]

I'm deep into conspiracy. So whenever.

[A]

Whenever we.

[B]

Those were a bunch of PhDs or.

[C]

Something, a bunch of PhDs, PhD students play a prank, and that prank becomes more famous than the original conspiracy, and then it rubs out that conspiracy. I think those are agent provocateurs maybe.

[B]

I don't know. I have no idea.

[A]

You'd like this. Actually. You might appreciate this. I remember having a conversation with someone who was pretty high up, used to be at the CIA, and I said to him, I was like, yo, conspiracy theories. Like, are these people real? Are they onto something? And he said something that'll stick with me forever. He said, at the CIA, we laugh at conspiracy theorists and all that, but he said, but we are also glad that they are as crazy as they are because of how many times they are. Right. And can I tell you, that changed my perspective. Cause I'm. He's a conspiracy theorist. I'm not. Like, I'm genuinely not. But it changed my perspective forever because I was like, oh, we assume a conspiracy theorist is always wrong. Yeah, we assume they're always wrong. And then what he basically said to me was, no, no, no, sometimes they're right, but the stuff that they're wrong on is so often and so crazy that it covers the things that they did get. And then we just get to. That's why they'll never, like, confirm nor deny anything, because it just. It stacks on itself.

[C]

And I think in the last couple of years, they've tried to do. To dispel the myth that most CIA agents are white and also that what they're doing is unethical. Because you've seen. There's a. There was a huge. There was this one guy who was famous with an afro, who used to be on all podcasts, and you'll be talking about.

[A]

I've seen that guy.

[C]

Guys really? Do you think. Do you really? I'm here. They hired me with an afro and I'm black. Do you really think they're that bad? Then everyone was like, yeah, are they that bad? But people who've been affected by spies and CIA agents and people who've done things where, like, they didn't look like you. So there is always, like, I certainly believe, when there's protests, when there's. Oh, but that's been proved. There's always been an agent provocateur who's just person credible enough to dispel what is really going on.

[A]

But that's been proved.

[B]

I mean, I think there's. There's a lot to read out about Agent Provocateur.

[A]

This is how it starts.

[B]

I'm not. I'm not.

[C]

Okay, shut up. That's all I needed. Eye contacted. A denial. Yeah, I'm not.

[A]

I'm not.

[C]

Eugene's easy.

[A]

Eugene's easy to please. Are you a spy? No.

[B]

What's interesting to me. We're good.

[C]

We're good.

[A]

We're good.

[B]

I try and think about it like, what is the core interest here? Like, so, for example, I love the idea that I might be alive when we make first contact. Like the idea that there are aliens out there, especially intelligent aliens.

[C]

I'm taking supplements for that reason.

[B]

You want to be alive for longer to be alive.

[C]

Not for my daughter to graduate university.

[B]

To see when we meet.

[C]

Totally.

[B]

Or even. I mean, I would be.

[C]

Lion's mane. I'm in.

[B]

I would be excited about, like, bacteria on another planet.

[A]

I'm sorry.

[B]

Just.

[C]

I'm so sorry.

[A]

I'm so sorry.

[C]

I'm really sorry.

[A]

This guy just said. Wait, I'm sorry. This man just said, that's what I'm taking. Because now I pictured the aliens coming down to Earth, making first contact with you, specifically going back to the mothership. And then they go like, have you met them? It's like, yes, I've made contact. Full of magnesium. High levels of lion's mane mushrooms. Is this all of. They are 50% mushroom and 50% human. Are you sure? I'm pretty sure. I. I scanned him. I'm pretty sure.

[C]

And why is this pee orange? He has ash.

[A]

Ashwagandha. Lot of ashwagandha in these species. I'm sorry. Sorry. So you were going.

[C]

You thought I was bad?

[B]

Luke.

[A]

No, no, no. He said, I take supplements hoping for that day. We never think of which. Do you know how important it is?

[B]

I just nodded and smiled.

[A]

But you know how important it is to Think about which human will be our first contact. We never think about that.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

Because if the aliens do get here and then they meet who they meet first.

[B]

Oh. But I think they're gonna be, like, looking at us from afar and seeing that there's nitrogen in our atmosphere.

[A]

You think they're gonna. David Attenborough us?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think they're gonna be.

[C]

What do you mean? They are going to. They have been.

[B]

I think there's so many. Well, okay, so to get back to conspiracy theories, I promise the thing that I am most interested in is what people are interested in. So, for example, the idea that people, we as humans feel this kind of loneliness with each other and also cosmically, that I think is really beautiful. Somehow we're so used to reaching out to each other that we understand that the world is big, the universe is unthinkably enormous, and we reach out and we really want that. And so I think that is beautiful and interesting. And when I tell stories, I want to make a video. I just made an episode all about what would happen if an asteroid were about to hit Earth and how we would figure out how to solve that problem. There are real solutions to that which are fascinating, but I want to do another version of that where I imagine, like, what is the most realistic case where we might encounter aliens? Is it that on the moons of Europa we're going to. Is it that on Europa we're going to find, you know, bacteria in an ocean somewhere? Is it that we're going to look at a star system, you know, hundreds of light years away and see that there's an atmosphere there that we think looks like ours because it has life? Like, what would the realistic scenarios be? And then you create a sort of. I'm really into the idea right now of mixing science fiction with the explainer stories that we're doing, because I do think that science fiction, if you are very clear. Again with the voicing with Mark Robert, if you're very clear about what's fiction and what's fact, you can play out a situation. An asteroid is coming for Earth. Okay, now, what are the real. What is the real science and technology that we would use in that situation? So in this case, okay, imagine the realistic scenarios in which we might actually encounter life in off Earth. What would happen next? What would we do if we encountered some, you know, light? How would we verify that? Would we send a probe? It's going to take a hundred years to get there. If it's 100, it's going to take much, much more than that, actually. How would we verify that? And so you play this out, and you accept what people find interesting and what the seed is, and then you try and show them the science and the technology that you're convinced is real through the scientific method, but that gets at this thing that they are excited about. So another example is it's the same.

[C]

As the 1902 article.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. You try and do that in an optimistic way so people can see, like, okay, if the plane were to fly, what would that mean? Okay, if we were to find aliens, what would that, what would that look like? What is the real science and tech there? Same thing. I guess what I'm doing is sort.

[C]

Of the 1902 first article.

[A]

Yeah, 1902.

[B]

1903. For the, for the, yeah.

[C]

Wright Brothers was 1903.

[B]

Pretty sure. Yeah.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

I don't know. I'm just, I'm just making sure I remember it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And so you can do that over and over again with all of these different, these different interests. I don't even want to call them conspiracy theories. It's just like, okay, you're interested in cern, you're interested in the fact that we're smashing particles together. Let me tell you the real science in tech.

[A]

No, can I tell you?

[B]

Smashing protons, the real thing that we're doing.

[C]

Particles smashing Eugene.

[A]

Only Eugene could make science sexy.

[C]

You see those particles smashing, more combative.

[B]

But now I get it.

[A]

What did the one hadron collider say to the other hadron collider? So did you smash, hey, there's a scientist out there who's loving that. He's like, yeah, yeah. I, I just realized you, that's a superpower that you have that is not just in short supply. I, I, I, I can't think of many people I've met who, who have this ability. You spend very little to no time focusing on the definitive place that people find their imaginations at, and instead, you encourage the possibilities of where that imagination could lead. So, like, you just did it now, right? Eugene goes, I believe the aliens, and they speak like this. And they're doing this. And I'm going, like, I don't believe in this. I believe it's pop, but I don't believe in this. And we roll like that. We're friends. And I always say what I love about that is, like, I don't think people have enough friendships where their friend has a thing. Like, Eugene treats my views on soccer like I treat his views on aliens. Do you know what I mean, so when I'm like, ah, that game. He's like, what game? There was no, this is all nothing, you know what I mean? But we have fun with it. We genuinely do. But what you do is more interesting, is like, you don't sit in the. Is it right? Is it wrong? Is it real? Is it not? Is it. No, you go, huh? How would we, what would we. Where would we. It, like, encourages this journey. It encourages a journey.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Everyone involved. You know what I mean?

[B]

Well, the energy is there, the desire to learn and the desire, yeah, but I think most people desire to do.

[A]

Research, but I think most people don't treat people like that. Like, I tried to explain this to somebody once. I genuinely did not have the eloquence nor the compassion that I think you have when engaging in the topics. But I remember saying this around, like, parents with vaccines, you know, And I remember, I think on one of our episodes we talked to maybe Dr. Becky about it and I was saying a lot of parents are anti vaccine. Right? And we live in a world now, for the most part, where people go pro, anti fight. How can you not? How can you. And that's it. It's as simple as that. And there's very few people who'll take a moment to go, well, somebody who is anti vaccine has actually spent a lot of time on their own Googling and reading. And that's almost why they've become anti vaccine is because they've gone out of their way to consume copious amounts of information that led them down a certain path. Now, whether the information is valid or not is a separate discussion, but it means that they have a hunger and they have an interest in the topic that has now brought them to that place.

[B]

Can you offer more?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Can you offer anything that allows them to do that thing that they do in a direction that. That has more for them to do it too? There's more information over here. You could, you could be more excited about all of the many different research papers that are coming out every day. Like, here's. Here's a place to start. Like, here's some interesting information. And I also think, like, the thing that gets me really excited is that the world is very strange and very exciting and full of things to learn and to get excited about. And so I view my job as to create a menu of journalistically rigorous, genuinely beautiful, deep explainers that might excite someone to go down all of these different paths.

[A]

Have any of them been wrong in any way?

[B]

I mean, we issue corrections when we get Things.

[A]

Oh, you do.

[B]

There haven't been any major stories where the underlying point of the story has been wrong. And we work really, really hard to make sure that that's not the case. If it ever is. We would do a big correction on that. So far, it hasn't happened. But every once in a while, we'll need to do a correction on a fact. So you can. YouTube has a really great UX where you can put the timecode and then a colon and correction. User experience.

[A]

Experience.

[B]

Okay, so there's a feature on YouTube where you can say the timecode and then say correction and put whatever you want people to understand that is different than the fact that you said so. I do this sometimes. If I say, like, if I. An example would be. I use the wrong. We do everything in metric, but I have an American audience as well, so if a translation is incorrect, I would put the correct one or something. Like, things that are. Sometimes they're. They're more deep than that. We had a cave that we said was in one country, but it's actually in another. You put the correction. And this is. I mean, this is basic journalistic practice. This is what you want, you know, if you're telling the story.

[A]

And I mean, you say that, but we live in a world where this.

[B]

Is our journalistic practice.

[A]

That isn't a.

[B]

Why.

[A]

Why journalism, by the way? I mean, if. If both parents were in law, why. Why did you pick journalism?

[B]

Well, I began working at Vox on the business side, actually, I was really excited. I had no experience as a journalist, and I was really excited about the idea that I could help facilitate the storytelling that I was so excited about.

[A]

Sorry to interrupt you there. Like, are you ever not excited? No. You strike me as a very positive, optimistic excited. Like, I understand making videos about asteroids hitting the Earth and explaining the world. Excited. I'm with you completely. Law, death penalty excited. You just said I was gonna go work in the business division, business affairs, and I was excited. And your eyes told me that you looked excited.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Is there anything where you go, like. Like, boring. Like, is there anything or. Or have you always had this as a. As a. As a filter on the world?

[B]

I think I was so incredibly lucky that somehow I don't think it's innate. I think I was taught this somehow along the way, that there's nothing. I'm actually. I'm doing an episod. I'll spoil it. When does this come out?

[A]

Well, whenever it needs to come out.

[B]

I don't know. This is not the kind of Thing that is like a big spoiler. We're working on an episode for the Olympics that'll come out during the Olympics, and we're focusing on curling.

[C]

The sport.

[B]

The sport.

[C]

Big wheel of cheese.

[B]

I'm obsessed with curling. I think curling is just the most fast from a physics perspective. The ice is amazing. There are all kinds of applications of the way that the curling stone spins that might, in an interesting way, help us. I promise.

[A]

Uh, Eugene, you're talking about a granite jean.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Wheel of cheese.

[A]

Eugene, let's be clear. I've never criticized you. I've only mocked you. There's a difference.

[C]

Where? In the ux. Can I put this correctly? You want some?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, yes. You're fascinated by curly, and you said how it might help us solve.

[B]

So the physics. There's a. A physics mystery in curling, which is. Oh, man. I gotta explain this now. So.

[A]

This is your life.

[B]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is a thing that nobody would understand.

[A]

No, throw it.

[B]

I'll explain this. One second. I need a prop.

[C]

You need a sip? Yes.

[A]

Okay. No, she needs a prop. She's gonna.

[C]

Oh, a prop. So you. Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

You're the life of the. That would be really fun.

[B]

If we were.

[A]

If we were at a party now. You'd be like, all right.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

So the mystery in curling is usually if I have this and I spin it, I don't know if you saw that, but I was spinning it in this direction and it moved that way.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Does that make sense?

[C]

So it count as good?

[B]

Yes. In curling, that's not what happens. I can't demonstrate it with this right now, but if you're with a curling stone, which has a very specific bottom, and you spin it on the ice, if you watch Olympic curling, it will spin this direction. Right. That's the same as what I spin, and it will move this way. And that has been confusing physicists for a hundred years.

[A]

Why is the other one normally happening? Is it centrifugal force? What is happening?

[B]

Something about. So the reason why that happens. So I spun that way. It moved that way. I think I did it a little bit. Let's see if I can do it going straight. Really trying to make it work. Yeah. So it moved that way. I spun it that way.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The reason why that happens is something to do with friction on the front. And I don't totally understand why it happens, but it basically happens with everything. So if you. The physics of this spin and the friction of forward motion means that it should move that way. But on ice with a curling stone, it goes the opposite direction than you.

[A]

Would expect because there's no friction.

[B]

So we don't totally understand why. So this has been confusing physicists. There are a lot of genuine research papers written about this. This has been confusing physicists for, like, a hundred years. And there's a lot of very reasonable reason. If you ask why and you look at the papers, there are a bunch of reasons that they give. There's one theory that has to do with the friction on the front of a curling stone is different than if it's on this because the ice is melting slightly as the friction moves across. So there's something to change about the friction.

[A]

Like, is it that the water and the ice are, like, doing two opposite things? There are a couple different things in a layer between them, or I couldn't.

[B]

Repeat to you what the theory does.

[A]

Not mean to be interested in coal.

[B]

I know, I know. I don't.

[A]

Look at me.

[B]

So this is.

[A]

Now I'm gonna be watching the Olympics, watching curling, trying to figure out why the stone spins the way it does.

[B]

This is exactly my point.

[C]

And what material is the stone? Granite.

[B]

A really special granite. It comes from one island. Every single Olympic curling stone comes from the same island.

[A]

What island?

[B]

It's called.

[A]

You can just say any island, and we'll throw in a correction. We should just do that for fun, just to show people how it works.

[C]

So the specific island where the it's.

[A]

Called.

[B]

I'm not gonna remember this. I'm not gonna imagine.

[A]

Just say an island. Just say an island. The island of stone.

[B]

Stone. Alisa. Craig, thank you so much.

[C]

The soma guy at the party.

[A]

Boo. I'm a factsman.

[B]

But see, every single stone comes from that one island. Okay, here's my point.

[A]

And every single boring person comes from that island too. Thanks for the facts, facts guy. We were having so much fun here. Guessing.

[B]

They were gonna make me make up an island.

[C]

So thank you. Oh, man.

[B]

Here's my point with this.

[A]

The island of Bashar. And then we would have put the correction. See, it would have been perfect. Sorry, Eugene.

[C]

Sorry.

[B]

My point is that curling is a sport where if you read the YouTube comments and most videos about curling or if you look at the way that people cover curling, especially on television during the Olympics, they make a lot of fun of it. They talk a lot about, like, how did this become an Olympic sport? Like, oh, you know, why are we. Like, It's. It's sort of a. A joke. It becomes a. A joke. First, I think Curling is amazing, and I think the curling athletes are amazing. So I. I think that shouldn't be the case in the first place.

[C]

Curling athletes?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh. Oh. I tried curling at the curling Olympic trials. I tried it. It's insanely hard.

[A]

Wait, what makes it hard? What's hard about it? Knowing that your friends might see you doing it.

[C]

No.

[B]

The balance of doing it.

[A]

No. You know, we started this. We all man.

[C]

You know we started this. We all man.

[A]

Come on, baby.

[C]

Come on on, baby.

[A]

Man, you not.

[C]

You know, I'm so jealous of that.

[A]

Come on, you. You know we started this.

[C]

We on, baby.

[B]

I've never heard you use that voice before.

[C]

Don't be out here acting like you.

[A]

Know who we try to curling we are.

[B]

This is my point, you guys, which.

[A]

Is, Cleo, are trying to trick us into acting like curling is not funny. Some people think it's funny.

[C]

We are those people.

[A]

You don't have to go far. There are some people who think it's it.

[C]

We are those people. People.

[A]

You have found us.

[B]

I am going to make the case for this. I am such a big curling fan. I am going to make this case. My point.

[C]

Okay, sorry, sorry.

[B]

My point is that it is lame to be the cynic who looks at curling and thinks, oh, it's funny. It's not interesting. Not you guys, but it's lame.

[A]

It is much fired.

[B]

It is much more interesting and it makes your life better to be the person that goes, why does it work that way? Why is that? Turns out there's a crazy physics mystery and a stone island and a relationship to how we're going to discover aliens, by the way. Because we need to understand. We don't need to understand physics of curling time, but it relates to the way in which we're gonna explore islands where. It relates to the way that we're going to explore planets with ice and oceans underneath. So we need. There's a whole physics of the way that ice rubs against other things. And you need to understand that if you're gonna drill into plan. It's just. My point is that there's an endless amount of interesting things to know when you don't stop at, oh, that looks a little funny. Yeah, there's a. Or it's boring or it's funny.

[C]

You just clues of the universe.

[A]

But you also just made me realize that comedy does the exact opposite of what you're saying. But it's all about assumption. You know what I mean?

[B]

I would say that your comedy makes me think more about the everyday Things.

[A]

You're very kind. But I think, like, when I think of, like most. If you think of some of the crazier jokes that we'll tell as comedians, fundamentally, what we're doing is. The seed is the same. It's all born in curiosity and being inquisitive. However, the conclusion is necessary. Like, the assumption of the conclusion is necessary. Otherwise it isn't. One of the first ones where I knew this was Jerry Seinfeld. One of his most famous jokes was about the expiration dates on milk. And he was like, how do they know? How do they know when you milk the cow? It's like, you know, they've got the date. And he had this really amazing bit about, like, he's like, are they milking the cow? And then the farmer leans in, and then the cow's like, yo, yo, January 7th, or what? You know what I mean? Very funny bits. I never laughed at it, never found it funny, because I knew before I saw the joke how they have the expiry date and it's just a number of days after it comes out of the cow. And so I learned in that moment that a lot of comedy relies on you not knowing the facts.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Being curious. But don't pull out a phone, don't do the research. Don't just be like, how do they. And then you've gotta go on your own journey and figure it out. And God forbid you figure out the truth.

[C]

It's just like the joke is finished.

[A]

Yeah, the joke just like it.

[C]

Like such a CIA thing to say.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know. I think a lot of what you've been doing with your comedy is like, you do explain. Like, you land. You land an explainer after a funny journey.

[A]

If it's a real story. I mean, you and I are similar in that way. If it's, like, a real thing, I'm not gonna try and make it not. But there are moments where you go, what is the. Like, one of my favorite jokes of myself, you know, every comedian has their own favorite is. One of mine was like, the Origins of the. The Ku Klux Klan. And I was like, where did they get the name the kkk, Right? Because then I looked into it, then it's like it was. The joke was something about, like, how the origins were. They got it from the Greek brotherhood. It was. Kuklas Alfion was the original name. Right? Kuklas Alfion. Kuklas Klan is how they got the name Ku Klux Klan. Right. But then I was like, but then it's Not Ku Klux Klan. It's not supposed to be. To be kkk. It was supposed to be like kk. Yeah, it was supposed to be like kkc. And then it was supposed to be a whole thing. And then I played with it and I took you down the origins of it, but it was crazy stuff. And then I ended up on kfc and I was like, that's the original. That's supposed to be the name of the. Of the KKK is the kfc. But then they, they were like, we can't do that. Then I was like, cuz black people would love them. And then.

[B]

Who told you they couldn't do it?

[C]

I thought you were going to say who told them black would love them? Yo, you were so close. You were so close.

[B]

That's why I'm not a comic.

[A]

And then I ended it by saying, but I guess everyone wins because I'm sure the KFC has been responsible for the deaths of way more black people than the kkk.

[C]

My man. We're trying to get sponsors on this thing. Aren't you tired of struggling?

[A]

Oh my God.

[C]

Aren't you tired?

[A]

Oh, man.

[C]

We're walking home after this, thanks to you.

[B]

Ah, amazing.

[C]

I'm gonna go get another drink of water. You see what happens with snowflakes? Actually, I need more. Can we.

[A]

Can I get Beautiful.

[C]

She chugged it for the sake of science. She chugged it for the sake of.

[A]

Science to show us something. Oh, it's. It's right behind you in the credenza. It's in the credenza.

[C]

It's called a credenza.

[A]

In the credenza.

[C]

And the credenza is something else. My uncle is a problem credenza. Oh, thank you. So, thank you.

[A]

No, thank you. I'm fine, thank you. You need all of it?

[C]

Yeah, you, all of it.

[A]

No, no, no.

[C]

But like how Cleo put the water on Turbo. She was like.

[B]

No.

[A]

So I like. But. But I think the look, the seed of it, in the essence is fundamentally the same, and that is curiosity. Once we stop being curious, we stop growing like we stagnate. We don't try and make the plane, we don't try and make the rocket ship. We don't try and make the Hadron Collider. We don't try and make the Internet. We don't try. And all of that requires curiosity. You know what I mean? And I've always. I know I've said this to you before, but I go. People forget that the only way you can invent something is to imagine it first. But it can't exist.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? You have to imagine it and then.

[C]

That exists is someone's imagination.

[A]

Someone just went like, imagine if. And then now we treat that as like a helicopter. We just treat as a normal thing. Of course a helicopter works. Yo, helicopter. Have you explained helicopters? Because those things are crazy.

[B]

It's actually incredibly difficult to explain.

[A]

Those things are flying, especially for the.

[B]

Helicopter is very, very hard to explain.

[A]

Those things should not be in the air.

[C]

Da Vinci drove the first helicopter.

[A]

Yeah. But even his was more normal. His one was better. Yeah, it was that. It had that spiral, spirally thing. His one was better than what they. Yeah. What they made today.

[B]

This, this is so fun. Like this is what we're trying to do. And that's all the things that will come next. That too.

[A]

And wait, wait, have you explained. So are there any things you've tried to explain or gone into that has left you with more questions than answers?

[B]

Oh, most things, I think. Yeah. Because imagine. So you start out with something and you're like, take the CERN episode, for example. So you start out and you are curious about why There is a 17 mile loop underground.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In Switzerland and France. And it runs underneath all of these farms and houses. And it's just this like massive tube with a vacuum in it. And down the tube they're firing protons in opposite directions. And then when the protons are going nearly at the speed of light, they smash them together in one of these massive detectors. Like, why are they doing that? Why did they choose to build that? Why are they doing it there? Why are they. Why? I don't think. I don't know. Okay, maybe.

[A]

Okay, okay.

[C]

Until someone comes up with a, with a better catalyst.

[B]

I think it was just international collaboration.

[C]

I don't know.

[B]

I genuinely don't know. And, and so you have all these questions and, and so you begin to answer them. You, you ask, for example, why do we want to smash protons together? And it's like, well, the, the energies that you can get create different kinds of particles that we think we're around at the beginning of the universe. It's teaching us things about the beginning of the universe. It is also proving the existence.

[A]

Just to confirm, is it the beginning of like our universe or all universes, which, which I, I never, no, I've never known.

[B]

I don't know that much about. Because it's our universe theory.

[C]

I think it's the universe totality.

[B]

Yeah, I think it's.

[A]

But I'm saying Are they? Because I don't know. I only thought of this now while you were saying it. I was like.

[C]

Because Tina, there's more universe.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I think the question you're asking is, is the theory about multiverses, do they all begin at the Big Bang?

[A]

That's what I'm asking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm saying is it all universes or just our universe?

[C]

All.

[A]

All universes from one Big Bang.

[C]

One Big Bang.

[B]

I mean he said it with such confidence.

[A]

He really did. And this is how he wins all our arguments. Cause now I'm. He beat me.

[B]

I. I genuinely don't know. Maybe.

[C]

Yeah. I think it's about all universe. Cause you must remember up until recently we thought. Thought the universe was our planet.

[A]

Yes, that's true.

[C]

That's what we thought. Right. But you can see in pop culture starting to pop up the theory of, of quantum jumping, the, the theory of the multiverse. And they're all interlinked because you look at a popular movies that show Dr. Strange going from one port to the other. You're like, they're explaining that. But the theory of whatever you're going through now there's another version of you that didn't choose to do the thing that you're doing now.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, this is a really good episode idea. I haven't done much on like multiverses. I. I'm going to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's a really good story.

[C]

So I. When Cat theory as well.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know.

[C]

People like observing photons and atoms because there's this theory that if you're observing it, it changes. But if you're not looking at it, but it's like mostly with anything but you think of yourself in your apartment or your house. If you're in the living room, you don't know what's going on in the bedroom. But somehow your curiosity. Cuz we always think of curiosity as grandiose. Something has to be invented and you have to have something to show for it. But it sometimes happens to you when you're sitting in your living room and you go, go, I wonder what's going on in the bedroom. And you meander in there and then you go, everything as I left it. Then you go back to where you're from. So I think answering those questions of why there's an A loop underground smashing protons. There's a few guys who are really interested in finding out why. But the impact of it will reverberate towards everything that we're doing currently.

[B]

Absolutely.

[C]

And when I It's like a cell phone signal. We didn't care until we cared.

[B]

And when I look into those stories and I. I wonder, why did a couple hundred scientists build something like this? What is the purpose? And then girlfriends, why do they.

[C]

Do.

[B]

And then why do they want to build you?

[C]

You're gonna wear white. A white coat and do what? No, we're going to Switzerland. There's a loop. And then, then there's a torch. My other friend is going to be firing the torch from. And then, and then.

[B]

But like, here's a question.

[C]

No, science.

[B]

Here's a question that I had when I was going into this story. How do they make them hit each other?

[A]

Yeah, that one blew my mind.

[B]

How do they make them hit each other? That's a good way. So then you keep going and every question begets like 10 more questions. And everyone. It's like a fractal says, oh, out and out and out.

[A]

But you know what's funny is most people who do this become pessimistic.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. I find most people, or many people who go, whatever, but, but, but then, but then, then, then they go into like a spiral of but then, but then nothing.

[C]

No, they go, they, they start, they, they start off curious.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And they can lean towards pessimism or helplessness.

[A]

Yeah, that's what I mean.

[C]

It comes back to.

[A]

That's what. That's exactly what I mean.

[C]

Whereas. Trying to avoid.

[A]

Whereas you, you find. So maybe that would be a great thing to, to help. I mean, because I think it would be great for everyone to have that feeling and that. And that framework for life. What is it about the endless possibility of questions that leaves you feeling fulfilled as opposed to debilitatingly unknowing?

[B]

You know, there's this feeling of awe when you look at something that you already know is spectacular. Like you go. And you look at. I've never seen this, but this is what I imagine the feeling of looking at, like the aurora. Like the northern lights or. Yeah, or like apparently better on your phone. Is it really?

[A]

I just, I've just heard this.

[B]

Well, you sound like a Debbie Downer.

[A]

No, I'm just from the guides. They say. They say when you're there.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. What's something that fills you with a sense of.

[A]

No, no, no. I just wanted to let you guys know that it's beautif. Beautiful on your phone when you're there because you should do something on this.

[B]

About why it like filters.

[A]

Because apparently, apparently your phone. And again, I'm only working on what I've heard from people who've gone there and they've said that your guide even is like. Because, you know, some people, like, why is your voice.

[C]

Don't pull out.

[A]

Because it's the nighttime sky, Eugene. You want me to be shouting? Yeah, yeah, we're there. And they say, pull out your phone. And it looks better on the phone. You should check.

[B]

Think about that feeling that you have, though, when you look at something that you know is. Is astonishing. Actually, it's even better for this story when you're looking at something that humans built. That's astonishing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I have that feeling. Like my show allows me have that feeling a lot.

[C]

Humans.

[A]

Yeah, sorry, carry on.

[B]

Don't.

[A]

Don't. Don't interrupt.

[B]

Yes, yes. Humans.

[C]

Are confusing the pyramids of the Burj Khalifa.

[A]

And you were saying?

[B]

I was saying. Yeah, I have that feeling a lot. I have that feeling a lot about.

[A]

Cause within the nighttime sky, Eugene, feeling.

[B]

A feeling of awe.

[C]

I'm sorry, I ruined that.

[A]

I put us in the mood.

[B]

Of, like, planes and vaccines and, you know, the fact that water comes out of a tap when you open it, like, it is ridiculous. There are things that are ridiculous. And I feel very lucky to be alive right now. And I feel like the next hundred years, I hope, will be even more interesting. And I have this incredibly rare opportunity that we all have to understand what that might look like. And there's so many things happening right now. The idea that I could get the opportunity to go understand quantum computers and bringing back supersonic planes and the Large Hadron Collider and artificial wombs and faster, more efficient cars and all of these things that I've had the chance to do theoretical physics by going in a zero gravity plane. How incredibly lucky, first of all, to be able to tell those stories. But also just as a person, this is the show that I wanted to watch. This is the thing that I felt like I was missing.

[C]

Your version of Popular Mechanics for kids.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Remember the show?

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[C]

Yeah. But I think what you're explaining now is I have a theory that the next hundred years we won't see any huge technological jumps. I think it will be. To explain it to people, will be the same as how we've been as gamers anticipating the release of Grand Theft Auto 6.

[A]

Yes, preach, brother.

[C]

But then it keeps being postponed.

[A]

It does indeed.

[C]

And it's postponement. We've realized that there's so much we haven't explored in Grand Theft Auto 5.

[A]

Ooh, interesting.

[C]

We keep discovering new universities. There's Upgrades. It gets better and better and we like like now we've come out and said but Grand Theft Auto 6 can wait. But I think there's so much that we haven't explored about because we've been on this technological binge and gorge as you are saying we're just going to.

[A]

The next thing just move before we.

[B]

Devices probably means what shows like big shift. Like I think that there won't be.

[C]

Any new technology that blows us out the water.

[A]

That's your bet.

[C]

That's my 100% bet.

[A]

Wow. We should save this.

[C]

Please do.

[A]

No, no, no, I'm serious. Just as like a pet. I'm interested. Yeah, but I think, I don't think you're crazy.

[B]

I think you could end up right in a lot of different ways. So you could end up right where like we already have machine learning. So we already have like AI.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But there are lots of ways in which it isn't yet applied. Right. We've just seen, you know, Alphafold. We've just seen like some of these. The beginnings of things that are going to be hopefully really interesting for our lives. And. And so I think in that sense like, like you could call those new technologies or you could call them evolutions of what we're already seeing.

[C]

Exactly. That's right.

[B]

It happens over time. I think you're right that it's like a. It's. It's always one foot in front of the other.

[C]

It's an upgrade.

[B]

It's always like that.

[C]

But there'll never be anything new because if you think about it, if we.

[B]

Not in the sense of like now we're back to aliens. Oh no, not in the sense of like something just like hits come back home. Yeah. I don't think anything's going to hit us. But I think like you get to be a part of the progress of technology and I think that's a really exciting thing to lean into so that you get to say what you think it should do for us.

[C]

But the more we want something new, the more the underpinnings stay the same. Because if you think about it, we need textile has been the same. Just a little bit improvement here and there. Farming, engineering. And that is the underpinnings of engineering can fall under buildings, transportation and medication and science. And then obvious textile can fall into other what we use to design how we dress and how our homes look like and agriculture, how we stay alive. So I don't think anything new is gonna come. I think once people start doing hydroponics, we're like, we've reached the end, guys.

[A]

We don't need the soil.

[B]

I was like, yeah. I mean, I think in a certain sense, like, everything is. And this is something I love about humans. Everything stands on the shoulders of what came before it. I completely agree that, like, nothing is new out of thin air. Everything is one step above what the people who came before you built. And I think that's actually a big part of what I'm trying to do is to explain, you know, for example, when I'm trying to explain new ways to communicate and, like, why everybody is trying to put satellites. Satellites to have the Internet. Wow, you really knew where I was going with this. You need to explain how the Internet infrastructure works right now. You need to explain the cables on the bottom of the ocean. Like, there's. In order to understand what's next, you need to understand what's now. And we spend a lot of time doing that on the show explaining, like, okay, if you are, you know, trying to understand why we don't have supersonic planes, you need to understand the history of the Concorde. You need to understand how planes currently work. You need to understand what happens when there's a sonic boom over everything. Right. That. That's a. I think there's so much that we can learn about the future from understanding what's happening right now. And I think, you know, one. One thing that we haven't touched on.

[C]

Yet is how we use war to test out technologies.

[B]

We did touch on that.

[C]

Okay, sure.

[B]

You brought that in. That was. Yeah, continue. Is the way in which you. You get the opportunity to go down these rabbit holes and choose whatever you want to make is by.

[A]

Say more.

[B]

Is by owning your own thing. By making your own thing. Like, we haven't talked about the fact that we're having this conversation on a show that you're publishing on YouTube and that you get to decide, like, how long this goes on for. Together, you guys are coming up with the ideas.

[A]

Well, you're part of it as well. You can just walk out. You could leave any time, as you.

[C]

Often do at parties, apparently, you could just bounce.

[B]

Yeah, we're gonna transition.

[A]

No, but you're right. And actually, you know what? I'm glad you brought that up because it's something that I've been fascinated about because I think you were. You were at the vanguard of a movement that wasn't particularly obvious at the time. There are many people who've started their own things because they were never part of something mainstream, which often makes more sense to me. Right. If you're not part of something, you will oftentimes create your own thing. You were definitely part of something, and you were part of something that was quite popular, quite powerful, and quite, you know, it was quite obvious, for lack of a better term. You then left when it wasn't obvious, and you went off to do the least obvious thing in many ways. Help me understand that thinking, like, what is it about the environment you were in and what is it about you as a person that made you go, I'm gonna go out there and I'm gonna try create the world that I want to live in, even though it's a lot riskier than the world that I'm currently in.

[B]

Thank you for putting it that way. That's a very. I mean, I first got obsessed with the idea of this show. I mean, we spent a long time now talking about why I'm so obsessed with this idea. Like, I hope that you can see that. It's like, it really comes from my desire to watch it. Like, my desire to make it creatively. Like, there's just this itch that's just kind of unbearable at a certain point. And I wanted to make it, and I wanted to know if other people wanted to watch it. I really. I mean, one of the most incredibly gratifying things about Making Huge if True has been that all of a sudden, there are other people who are along for the same ride. You are. That feel the same itch that you do. That. That also felt like the journalism that they were getting was. Was pessimistic and it wasn't a full media diet. And they wanted something like this, like, to be. To see that other people have the same feeling that you do is really, really gratifying. And I knew that in order to make something that had this kind of, to be honest, like, sharp edge, like, Huge is different than other media that I consume. And that's not to say that other media isn't great, but there are things that I'm saying I don't like about mainstream media. There are things that, like, the show has an incredible positivity and a joy. It also has an edge. It's saying, like, there is harm in being knee jerk pessimistic. There is a point to this show, and we're doing things a different way. And that feeling, I just knew that I wouldn't be able to do that in the way that I really wanted to do it, and I wouldn't be able to test whether the actual thing that was in my brain was the thing that other people wanted. If I was inside a big media company.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, I just. To be clear, I wasn't offered the opportunity to make the show inside a big media company, But I didn't even. I didn't pitch it. I didn't. I didn't want to have the incentives and the constraints and the lack of control inside of me.

[A]

We talk about this all the time. We literally talk about this all the time.

[B]

You did this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And in fact. And so that was the main. The main point was I really wanted to make this show the way that I wanted to make it.

[A]

Were you ever afraid of meeting us?

[B]

No.

[A]

Look at what it's done to you.

[B]

Yeah. All the time. Yeah. I think there's still. When you're making anything that you really love, I think there's an underlying fear of it first not working, then when it is working, oh, my God, it might go away. Like, there's a. You live with a kind of. When you're really doing something that you love, you live with a kind of healthy fear.

[A]

I think.

[B]

I think that's good. I think that feels good, actually, to not always feel. First, the fear of something not working means that I think you're pushing yourself creatively. Second, the fear of other people not liking it means that you are potentially making something that some people will dislike and some people will love, and that's probably healthy. And third, there's just a fear of putting yourself out there. Like, a fear of, like, doing what you want and it just. And it just not working, or once you have success, of it going away. And I want to feel that. Like, I want to feel that all the time. So it felt much scarier to do. To do this.

[A]

Don't press anything. We've got more. What now? After this.

[B]

Hi, I'm Jenny Slate, and believe it or not, someone is allowing us to have a podcast.

[A]

I'm Gabe Liedman. I'm Max Silver, and we've been friends for 20 years, and we like to reach out to kind of get advice on how to live our lives. It's called I need you guys. Should I give my baby fresh vegetables?

[B]

Can I drink the water at the hospital?

[A]

My landlord plays the trombone, and I.

[C]

Can'T ask him to stop.

[B]

You should make sure that you subscribe so that you never miss an episode.

[A]

I need you guys.

[B]

Hi, I'm Kaitlin Coleman, winner of Target's HBCU Design Challenge. This challenge moved me closer to my dream of becoming a fashion designer. Through mentorship and support, you can find my design along with creations from other black founders in Target's Black History Month collection.

[A]

Why have I asked my electrician I found on Angie.com to bury my pet hamster? I was so moved by how carefully he buried my electrical wires, I knew I could transfer trust him to bury my sweet nibbles after his untimely end. This is very strange, Angie. The one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home [e-mail]. Now that you're in it, how do you insulate yourself from the hedonic adaptation of the success? How do you. It's something that's always fascinated me when I. When I watch people in life. Someone's an actor, they just dream of getting an acting gig and then they get into a movie and this is their dream. And then now they want to be one of the leads, and then they are one of the leads. And then they want to be the lead, and then they are the lead. Then they want to be a star, then they are star, then they want to be an A list star, then they're an A list star. And then. And then all of a sudden they spend all their days depressed that their box office numbers aren't what they used to. I used to think that that was reserved. And maybe naively when I thought this, I thought it was reserved for like, mainstream and industry. But you realize it applies to everything in life. And I see this with a lot of people on TikTok on YouTube who create and make and they hit a high and man, getting back to that ahai or like, have you ever. I've always enjoyed doing this. I'll go to somebody's like, let's say a TikTok goes viral, like mega viral. Everyone's watching it. And then I'll go down a rabbit hole of that person's page. And it's amazing to see how they were just doing whatever they wanted to do. And then one video goes absolutely viral. And then watch how their whole page after that just becomes that video.

[C]

It alters their trajectory.

[A]

Yeah. But more importantly, it alters how they see themselves and what they should be or shouldn't be doing. So you find they're singing karaoke, they're cooking food in front of the camera, they're hanging out with their friends, they're doing all these things. And then the karaoke video goes viral, then they hang out with their friends. Nothing. Then they cook nothing, Then they do karaoke again, semi viral. And then you just see them make that their identity. How do you. How do you grapple with that? And, like, do you have any safeguards or do you have any ideas that you impose on yourself? Where you go, oh, this is how I always come back to me being me and not letting the clicks define who I become.

[B]

It's not me, it's the show. Everything comes back to the mission of the show.

[A]

Oh, I like that.

[B]

And so for me, I didn't start with a lot of different ways in which I could be popular on YouTube. I started with, I want to make this one show. Will it or will it not work? Do you also want this show?

[A]

How do you define work, though? Like, will it work? What's your metric for will it work?

[B]

Can I make things that I'm proud of that have this. This mission of showing people optimistic visions of the future so that they can help build them, the three pillars? Can I successfully do that and get better and better at it? And, by the way, experiment in lots of different ways. The science fiction in the asteroid episode, the, you know, going to Formula one behind the scenes. Like, there are lots of different ways in which we experiment with formats and topics, but can I do something that meets this mission that we set out to with huge, if true. And also, do people want to watch that? Is that because the reason why I am so ambitious with this show, I really want this show to be watched by many, many more people than it is now, is because I actually think it accomplishes something that I want to happen in the world. I really think that if more people had generally a media diet that allowed them to see these visions more often and allowed them to participate more in the conversation and allowed them to explore how they could contribute to the world in an optimistic way, we'd all be better for it. And I wish more people were doing it. But right now, the way that I can accomplish that in the world is through making this show enormous. And so I have this incredibly strong ambition and motivation to make this show watched by millions and millions of people, which it already is, and it's growing, and I'm so incredibly proud of that. But at the same time, I'm not. I'm not trying to find the way in which they'll like me. I'm trying to see if they like this. There's a world in which nobody wanted to watch this. And then I just stopped because I wasn't experimenting. I didn't start out the channel by saying, here I am. I'm gonna explore. I'm just gonna make things come along with me for the journey. I said, I'm gonna make this show. And that, I think, has been really protective.

[A]

Well, yeah. You've separated yourself from the project, from the work.

[B]

Yeah. And then the other thing that's happened.

[A]

Along the way, that is that in. Sorry to interrupt you. I feel like that's in that book. I'm sure many people have said it, but in that book, the War of Art, I think one of the. It's really amazing. I think you'd enjoy it. But it talks about the complicated nature of artistry and the journey of making and what it means to create. Right. To take something from nothing, bring it out into the world, make it something, and then other people consume. And one of. One of the main things it speaks about is how the true mastery of being an artist requires you to know that you are not your work and your work is not you. But you have deep pride in that work, because if you're unable to separate yourself from it, then in its success or in its failure, you will always define yourself.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But if you go, this is a thing I made or did. Do you like it? Yes. No. All right, well, I made it.

[C]

But I guess you are experiencing. There's always, always what I find is a healthy amount of insecurity that comes with being an artist. And I think that's why even the greatest artists were either unhappy or they had to have paradigm shifts where they move elsewhere, you know, because I. I think when you catch on to a great idea, they always explained as you have an antenna. Everyone has. Ideas are floating around, but one person will catch it. But they have to have the naivety and the confidence to think that what they're thinking is unique. Then go out there. Then if they've done it enough, they start thinking, well, if I'm here, like Einstein, he thinks, if I'm here in Germany and everyone, maybe I must go somewhere else. Then he goes somewhere else, Then he comes here, then here. They're like, tell us more about that thing of yours. Because he goes. Where I come from, everyone's thinking, yeah, Van Braun is here because he makes rockets. So clear there's something there. So you go somewhere else. And that's where I think the analogy that I made about being in the living room and then going into the bedroom to see what's going on.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Only to come back again to the living room comes into play. And I think if you don't move, move as an artist, and I think that's what you are. If you don't move, you've realized that you. You die if you don't evolve, you perish.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And then you try to create a show that makes us evolve forcefully at our pace and the comfort of our own homes and screens. Right.

[B]

Thank you for saying that. Yeah.

[C]

You want this?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's beautiful, Eugene.

[B]

I think. I think that's exactly right. Yeah, I. So I wanted that creative opportunity. I wanted that for myself. I wanted it for the show. I wanted it for the audience. Now I have this incredible team that I work with that you asked also, how do I make sure that it stays the show? Like, they know what feels like huge.

[A]

Oh, that's great.

[B]

And they create a constraint.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

There's a team culture and a team mission, and we're all together making this thing. And so I am the vessel to make the thing better on screen, but we're all making it together. And that, I think, is really important to maintain the mission of what you're doing. And so all of those things, I think, help a lot. And then there's also the enormous wave. I mean, we haven't talked yet about, I think huge. And what we're doing is part of at least three big trends in media right now.

[A]

Okay, and what are those three?

[B]

The first is that YouTube is eating television. I mean, YouTube has been the most watched streaming platform for. For at least two years.

[C]

It's eating it alive, which is very sad.

[B]

It's wild.

[C]

Yeah. Don't wait for it to die first. It's kicking it.

[B]

By the way. I mean, you guys are. You guys have been part of that.

[A]

Sorry. It's a deep cut.

[C]

Yeah, it's a. Sorry.

[B]

And so you guys have been part of that. And the wave of YouTube allowing, I mean, because the bet that YouTube made was incredible. Right. Like every other streamer said, if we have a small number of gatekeepers and they decide what gets made, then that is the best stuff that most people will want to watch, and that's the stuff that should get made. And there's a whole business model around giving upfront money. You make the thing, you put the thing. You have a subscription, you watch the thing. And that's the philosophy that has grown. Every other streaming platform and YouTube had a fundamentally different bet, which was if we give a platform and split advertising revenue with anyone in the world who could make great things, then if we wait and we allow that work to kind of improve and percolate upward and have a system that recommends the right work to the right people, then that is actually the way that we will get the work that the most people want.

[A]

To watch.

[B]

That's a crazy bet. That is a fundamentally different bet than every other streamer. And it turns out out it's working. And how incredible is it that that works? I'm torn, though, fundamentally. Yes. There's a lot.

[A]

I'll tell you why I'm torn, only because obviously on the one side, I think it's amazing, I think to live in a world where people can create what they feel needs to be created if they don't see it. And people get to consume what they want to consume. Like, I have a friend who watches knife sharpening videos. That's pretty much all he does. Is it like watch knife sharpening videos? Is he in this room? Yeah.

[B]

Is he good?

[A]

He is in this room.

[C]

He passed away. By in this room, he means, Oh, he's here.

[A]

He's here with us now.

[C]

He's here with us now. Screaming from the great beyond.

[A]

No, so like, but, but, but what I mean by that is I do think that part of it is amazing, just like your show. What I like to try and do is also think about always the second system effect. What are we missing that we take for granted? Cause with every gift comes a curse. And the other side of it is those institutions, while they were and while they still are definitely flawed, they're a lot easier to hold accountable. Cause you can find them. Do you know what I'm saying? So when the BBC says something that's wrong or that people don't like, they can find the BBC. They can go after the BBC in a very definite way. When Netflix has a show that people are not angry about or you know what I mean? Like Diddy suing Netflix, where he's like, I'm gonna sue you for the documentary, but he can sue Netflix. But if that thing was put out on YouTube, just. It becomes a little more opaque. It becomes a little less tangible. It becomes. And so it's like, that's why I say I'm torn. Because it's this world where it's like, ah, you want people to have as much freedom as possible to put out what they like. But we also don't wanna live in a world where the ultimate harms can be done because nobody can be held accountable. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm sure you think about that as well.

[B]

And it's made even more complicated by the second trend, which is that people like all of us, who might have been employees at large companies then go independent. And so the trend, I'm thinking of the trend, particularly in journalism, of people going independent. But it's true in many other places, too. It's obviously true in comedy. It's true in. In lots of different industries. And so that I would say I'm a part and huge is a part. And you're a part of this second trend of independence that is created by the first trend of the success of YouTube. And then the third trend is maybe it's a part of a story about pessimism itself. It's part of a story about the feeling that people have about news and the world getting worse, and the feeling that that news has contributed to our understanding of the world getting worse and huge is something different. And so those, I think, are the three stories in the world that we are somehow in the middle of the Venn diagram on. And it's an interesting place to be because to your point, there are all kinds of parts of those stories. They're the shadow sides of each of those things. There's the extreme upside of, like, what if. What if these trends continue? And, you know, I mean, we're already at a place. It's so interesting to look at the difference between when I launched just three years ago and where we are now. I mean, the story when I launched was like, new media is coming. This is something that is coming. Like, we're long since here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, that story makes no sense anymore. Like, we are already running shows that are larger than any other media company on the largest, largest streaming platform in the world. And so that's really important and interesting. And to your point about accountability, like, how do people that are now independently running these shows that are bigger than the media operations on the biggest platform in the world, how do they take responsibility, as you said, for the things that they publish? And so it's a really exciting time. I'm obviously, I'm in, true to form, very optimistic about where this is all going, but I think it's. And it's interesting and complicated and thrilling. And I remember I've been wanting to ask you this question because I remember when I left Vox and I got a lot of congratulations, but a lot of it was with this tone of like, oh, I wouldn't. I would never do that. Or like, oh, the phrase a lot of the time was, that's so brave.

[A]

Oh, I love that phrase.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So brave.

[B]

And I got a DM on Twitter from you, and you said, congratulations, like, best of luck. And this was when you were on the Daily show and I had been watching your stuff for a long time, and I had no idea that you Were watching vox and you were watching mine. And so I'd announced that I was going independent, and you said, best of luck. And, I mean, I've said this to you before, but, like, it was a real moment for me to say, like, oh, like, I knew I was already making the bet, but it was incredibly helpful to hear from someone who had a show that was, let's be honest, like, the definition of mainstream success. Say, like. Like, best of luck, basically. Like, I think this is a good choice for you, so thank you.

[A]

You're welcome. For me, it's. It's an obvious one. And Eugene and I have been on this journey for, what, 20 years now.

[C]

I've.

[A]

I think it's two things. One, I love appreciating the people who've made an impact in my life, even from afar. Do you know what I mean? So in my whole journey, whether it was on the Daily show or not, I remember, like, in my whole life, every comedian who, like, put me on some stage or introduced me to another comedian or promoter in another country. I remember journalists who wrote great pieces, who helped me understand the world that I was trying to understand, authors who've literally changed my life. I try and have them on this podcast now, and some of them will say to me, they'll be like, I wrote that book 10 years ago. And I'm like, yeah, but it's still with me now. You know, they're like, why did you call me now? There's literally some people who come to the show and go, I haven't done anything in 10 years. And I'm like, yeah, but it stayed with me for 10 years. That's the first part. The second part is exactly what you said is the unsafe bet. And I think there's a misalignment oftentimes in how we act in society versus what we say. We will say we want to explore. We will say we want people to go out and try things. We will say we want. What we often want is the reward from these things. We want huge, if true. We want the show now that it's working, but we don't really want people to go out and, like, try it in that way. And I don't know what it does to people, but you and I have spoken a lot about. Makes people uncomfortable when people, as Eugene says, go rogue. It's interesting how it makes people around you uncomfortable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The amount of people who said that to me. And by the way, this has been the story of my life. When I. When I first started doing standup, Comedy. I had been lucky enough to get a job on a radio station at 3am on the weekends in Johannesburg, in, like, in Gauteng only, right? So it's one state, one province, regional. Regional. And that's where I was. No one listened. I knew all my listeners by name. Tiny little thing. But it paid my bills. I started comedy while doing that comedy grew. And I was lucky enough that comedy, it just got to the point where I had to choose which one I was gonna do. I chose comedy. Everyone said, yeah, what are you doing? You have a great opportunity. What are you doing?

[C]

You step away from being at breakfast.

[A]

And the thing it made me.

[C]

You're one slot away.

[A]

What it made me realize, even at that time, was not only did they not see the possibility that I was aiming for, it made them uncomfortable. Because if you're on. If you're living on an island, someone gets on a boat and says, I'm sailing somewhere else that we cannot see. You'll be shocked at how it makes the people on that island angry and uncomfortable because they're like, are you saying this isn't it? Are you. People start to internalize things. They go, are you saying I'm boring for staying on this island? Or are you saying there's a better island out there? Are you saying this island might not exist in a few years? And all of a sudden people get angry at you? How could you? Why would you leave? What are you doing, Fox? Are you kidding? And so whenever I see people who do that. You know what I mean? For some reason, it sparks something in me. We only want to leave when everything's fallen apart. We only want to explore when we're forced to go. And I often think to myself, wouldn't it be beautiful if you could find those opportunities and those moments to do it in, like, a good leave with energy, you know, don't escape Embark. There's a different feeling in both of them. And so for me, it was one of those things where it was like, what you were doing was crazy. It was genuinely crazy. And I was so impressed by it. I was like, ah. I mean, I've loved the stuff you've made. Good luck. You're gonna kill it out there. You've got the talent. Those types of people, you're one of them as well. Those types of people who inspire me because I go, like, what are you doing? Oh, boy. All right. Well, that's a crazy thought. Like, with Eugene, it was like the opposite. Eugene, like, just took a break at some point, and I was like, what Are you doing? And she's like, yeah, I'm taking a break. It's like, whew. Taking a break. He's like, yeah, I'm just gonna pause for a while. And I remember it's the craziest thing. I was so inspired by the fact that this human being showed me that there was the option to take a break, even though you don't know what's on the other side of that break. So in all of these, I'm just like, yeah, man. And by the way, I didn't think you were making the right choice. I just thought you were making a good choice.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, interesting. Because the question I wanted to ask you, if I'm honest about that message, what you said was, I've been wondering when you're gonna do that. And I thought to myself two things.

[C]

Sounds like him.

[B]

I thought to myself two things. The first was, you know who I am. When did you start wondering this? And the second thing I thought was, how did you know that that was even an option? Like, because for me, going Independent on YouTube, there was least one person, Johnny Harris and Iz Harris, who were building a journalistic independent media group from. He had left Vox. And so there was at least one example that I could see of someone doing this well, but until I actually began thinking about doing it, it didn't feel like one of the options that was available to me. And I thought it was gonna be the start of what has now become true, which is this wave of sort of people going independent, both in journalism and in comedy and in all walks of life. But at the time, like, how did you know that that was an option? Because my perception is I should have been more likely to know that that was true than you, who were at the kind of the. The pinnacle of mainstream media success.

[A]

So I didn't know that it was an option, but I think I sometimes have. I don't know if it's just an innate ability, but I can oftentimes spot somebody who is an outlier in the environment that they're in. And it doesn't necessarily mean that they don't gel with their environment. I just go, like. Like, yeah, you're going to leave. And not leave in a bad way. You're just. You're going to leave.

[C]

Does.

[A]

Does that make sense? Because there's. There's. There's something about you that tells me you are going to do something that goes beyond this. So on your side, I mean, now I'd have to be, like, trying to go back and Remember what it was. But maybe just having this conversation with you, I was probably thinking at the time, you're creating these explainers. You're making this world really interesting, entertaining, positive. Despite what the content is, it was all about, like, Congress and the Senate, and this is not a positive world. And it's not necessarily an interesting world. It's exciting, but it is definitely a limited world. You know what I mean? And so maybe I saw in you something that maybe I hoped to see in myself, which was, oh, I'm not only this thing.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I love politics, but I'm not only that, you know what I mean? I've literally met people who think that's all I am all the time. I'll never forget in the, like, in Miami, at, like, midnight, some random guy came up to me in the street and he was just like, Donald Trump, 2024.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was like. And he was like, yeah. I was like.

[C]

And.

[A]

And I genuinely looked at him. I was like, what do you. What do you think's gonna happen? Did you think you were gonna say that? I'.

[B]

No.

[A]

Nelson Mandela. Like, what did you think? I was like, oh, it's because your experience of me is one dimensional. So you think that my world is contained in that one dimension. I oftentimes will latch onto people who don't operate in that one dimension because they inspire me. So this guy here is like, comedy's one of his dimensions. And then, I mean, history, you know, nature, documentaries, guns, motorbikes, aliens. Aliens. Like, but I mean, it's. No but it's infinite, really. It really is infinite with you. And I think when you. When you see that and you see somebody, especially somebody who's creating, you'll see that they. They're forced to create in one sphere. Like, we had Derek Forger on. On the podcast, and he's a friend of mine who's an artist. Phenomenal, phenomenal artist. But everyone knows him for, like, his paintings. And then he started making sculptures. And I remember asking him one day, I was like, hey, why the sculptures? And he was like, cause I wanna make sculptures as well. And I remember going, oh, yeah, just because you're famous for this thing doesn't mean you should limit yourself. Just because you're successful in this thing doesn't mean you should limit yourself. And then he started making a whole interactive show. I'll tell this to anyone who can. If you ever see a Derek Forger show come up, they're always free. They had an art gallery, but they're always free. Go it is one of the most amazing experiences you'll ever have because he makes the life live like you. You're not. You're no longer just looking at a painting. You. You're transported to a time. Music, videos, paintings, sculptures, installations that you have to walk through. And I always tell him, I go, like, oh, you remind me to use your analogy that being a human being, no matter who you are, you have your antenna up there, there. Certain things will make them vibrate more than others. You'll catch more frequencies than others, but it doesn't mean that you should only vibrate at the strongest frequencies. Explore the other ones. Do you know what I mean?

[C]

The faint signal.

[A]

Yeah, this faint signal that's also wonderful to have. And so, I don't know, I think it was something like that with you. I was just like. When I'd see you there, I'd go, well, this can't be the only thing that you find interesting. So it's only a matter of time before I assume you're just gonna go and make your own thing somehow, somewhere. So when it happened, I wasn't particularly shocked. I was like, oh, yeah, all right. I was waiting to see when this would happen.

[C]

I think sometimes when you revisit the past, you get to see what the present and the future will definitely look like. What you guys are explaining now and from hearing this is no different from how ancient civilizations always rewarded and found a way to crowdfund. Well, they called it something else to crowdfund philosophers. And those philosophers should have apprentices. And those apprentices will one day become the philosophers of their time. And the written word was the only way that those philosophers was there, was their YouTube.

[A]

Interesting.

[C]

So those people were paid to think of ideas, to envision how politics should be and how art and culture. And if you had a great idea, if you could think, if you could paint, if you can sculpt, helped pay this person to just do that thing. And that's how civilizations are born. And I think we might just not see this now, but 200 years from now, if someone looks at this portal that was Open, which is YouTube, which is equivalent to thousand years ago to written and spoken word scrolls. It's like a press, the same thing, this footprint. There's ideas. They will never be new again. Everything that you're speaking about now might be obvious in 100 years, but will never be new again. And I guess that's the whole thing. That's the whole synergy, and that's what you've been good at spotting. You Know, you've. You've spoken a lot of people off their cliffs, and giving them their careers without even knowing is the ability to see another philosopher and go, if you explore this idea further, you might hit the jackpot of your own independence, of your own freedom, and of your own autonomy. Because that's the ultimate reward. And I think that's why super thoughtful people who are philosophers, financial reward is never their aim. It's autonomy. It's them feeling like I can do what I want when I want.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And once you've reached that, that's the pinnacle. And I think.

[A]

And I think everyone.

[C]

Exactly that. Right.

[A]

I think everyone benefits. That's the most important thing as well.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Is the understanding that everyone can benefit from it. That's what, that's what I also find, selfishly, I'm going as a fan of yours. Well, I hope I see more. Same with your comedy. You remember even from back in the day, I was like, when, when, When Eugene.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm waiting for this, I'm waiting for that. I'm waiting. You know what I mean? I'm. Selfishly, I'm going, this, this, this benefits me. So I'm assuming it benefits.

[C]

Basically, what you're saying is Michelangelo didn't spend years upside down painting the ceiling of the. Of the Basilica for him to look at it. He did it for other people.

[B]

That's beautiful. And so what's it. What's it been like?

[C]

What.

[B]

What is. If the lesson is an ability to more fully experiment with. With or express who you are, what's it been like for you? What do you feel like you're able to express now? What are you trying to experiment with?

[A]

That's an interesting question. Damn. Okay, so here's, here's, here's the analogy I would use. I think a lot of life is us trying to climb a mountain. And, And a lot of the times, that mountain is often introduced to us by others. They tell us, hey, that mountain over there, man, if you can climb that mountain, you've done it. And so then we grow up our whole lives going, okay, mountain, all right, mountain. One day. And then at some point, you start. You start climbing the mountain. You start climbing the mountain. While you're climbing the mountain, you might meet some people along the way who've either come down or have settled at certain parts of it. And, and they'll, you know, they'll be like, oh, yeah, the mountain. Welcome to the mountain. You're on the mountain. You're on the mountain. Mountain. Yeah, mountain. We go to the Top of sea at the mountain, and you're climbing it. And if you ask yourself the question, why am I climbing? It's because I've always wanted to climb. I've always. You know, it's only when you get to what you have to define as your peak that you stop and go, oh, this is lovely. This was hard. But what mountains do I want to climb? Do I want to go walk in valleys? Do I want to stroll along rivers? Do I want to. Oh, I've. I've now climbed what mountains people hoped I would climb. So now what would I like to do? And in that exploration, it's terrifying because first of all, success or failure becomes like a. You know, everyone has the, oh, when are you. You gonna get back to mountain? And you're like, no.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, like, one of the number one things people ask me in general is like, so, what's. What's next? That's. That's why I named the podcast. I was like, what now? So what now? Yeah, what now? I was like, what do you mean? They're like, so what? Whatever. I'm like, I'm gonna live life. And they go, yeah, but I mean, beyond that, like, what is beyond living life? And now I get to enjoy all of that more. I wouldn't have had the time before to sit down with you like this and to sit down with one of my best friends and explore and learn and have a deeper understanding of how you create and, you know what I mean, get into the mind of somebody who's gonna be shaping generations to come because of her work. I wouldn't have the time. And so everything in life I find now is. There's a beautiful book that I. That I read. We should have the author on if he'll join us. It was a book called 4000 Weeks. And it's a book that just breaks down that the average human has about 4,000 weeks on this planet. How do you want to spend those weeks? And when you understand the limited nature of those weeks, you also understand that you're always gonna be missing something because you're doing something else. And so instead of having fomo, rather enjoy this thing that you're actually experiencing. So when you're at this party, don't think about the party you're missing, or don't. When you're at home, don't think about the party you're missing. Be like, ah, can't believe I'm in my bed right now. What a joy. And there I genuinely have found some of the most fun and the most. Most joy and the most like. And so when people ask me these questions, sometimes people be like, wow. But I mean, you.

[B]

What do you.

[A]

What do you. What do you. What do you. And I'm like, well, a little bit of this, little bit of that, maybe nothing. I see them get uncomfortable on my behalf and I'm like, no, maybe this.

[B]

Is because I'm trying to climb my mountain, you know, but do you ever think about the fact that this mountain might be bigger?

[A]

It's always going to be bigger.

[B]

But, like, always, that what you are doing right now is part of, like we talked about this wave, that there is a very real future where in literal terms, in the success terms that people used to talk to you about.

[A]

That's so funny.

[B]

This actually could be the bet that is the biggest thing you ever make. That is. That is like. And that's kind of hard to keep together. Right. Because what you're expressing is a very healthy psychology of like, I'm doing this because I want to do this.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But at the same time, there is a reality here where you're experiencing this wave of independent owned media and you own it and you're making something that. I don't know what the Daily show viewership was. I don't know what your viewership is right now. But, like, in a very real way, this could be or become the biggest thing you ever make because you're all of a sudden part of this new mountain.

[A]

It's hard to do.

[B]

Hold both things at the same time.

[A]

I think that's exactly what I do, is hold them both at the same time. I'll tell you why. When Eugene and I started doing comedy in South Africa at the time, comedy was how many years old?

[C]

Sure. Less than, like.

[A]

Like stand up comedy. And I mean this because.

[C]

Less than 10.

[A]

Yeah. Because remember, we didn't have free speech in South Africa because of apartheid. Right. So it's not. That's what I mean by stand up comedy. Widespread people doing it. It wasn't really a thing.

[C]

Less than. Less than 10.

[A]

You have the first wave of comedians who jumps out and they start doing the comedy. Right. We were like the second wave. I would argue. Yeah, but it was a relatively young scene. There were no comedy clubs. This was not a structure or a thing. I remember once my mom saying to me, what do you do? Like, where are you going? And I said, I do stand up comedy. And my mom said to me, trevor, this lifestyle of selling drugs is gonna catch up with. And I said, what? And she said, mtanam this lifestyle of selling drugs is gonna catch up with you.

[B]

She was so gentle with it.

[A]

And I said, mom, I don't sell drugs. I do comedy. And she says, puti, she said that save your lives for others. This lifestyle will not end well. And I was like, mom. And she said, even ask yourself, where do you say your money comes from? And I said, I go and I tell jokes. And she. She's like my child. And then she just walked into the house, calm. But she was like, that's how. I don't know what it was like for you when you first told someone what you do.

[C]

There were cops in my bedroom. Then my mom was like, I told him, this lifestyle won't end well, but.

[A]

Do you know what I mean? That's how random it was, right? So. But there's this spark, and I always encourage people to do this as I go.

[C]

So.

[A]

Remember that you need to do things to survive, and you also need to do things to thrive. We oftentimes forget the latter. Survival is important. I'll never tell anybody. I don't like it when people go, like, chase your dreams. Throw everything else. No, no, no, no, no, no. Hey, survive, survive. Work, survive. Come on, get that thing going. But also, don't forget to find ways to thrive. I'm always searching for ways to thrive. So comedy was that when we did it, genuinely, there was no money in it. There was no industry in it. There was no kid. This was the thing we did. We met each other at. It's like a local bowling alley and telling jokes type thing. That's how. That's the vibe. Then at some point, it seemed obvious, right? When I was gonna do the Daily show, it was. It wasn't obvious at all. In fact, it was a failure for outsakes, like the first year and a half, at least, it was an utter.

[C]

Failure, in fact, here to do the Daily Show.

[A]

Yeah, I didn't.

[C]

Which is what people get wrong sometimes.

[A]

No, I was here doing standup comedy, doing stand up. And then I was home. And then the Daily Show. Jon Stewart phoned me and was like, please come do one episode. We did one. And then he tricked me and trapped me, and I still hold it against him. And also I'm grateful to him forever for it. But, like, that thing, I hope I never lose it, and I hope everyone has the opportunity to experience it, because what happens is you bump into the things, right? So Joe Rogan, for instance, is one of the people I speak about this. It seems obvious that UFC is the biggest, you know, fighting Platform now, and it's worth all this money now. But when Joe Rogan was starting in ufc, it was this fringe. They used to call it cage fighting, Cage fighters. And Joe Rogan loved it. And people did it. And then they were like, do you wanna comment? He's like, I think he was the one who was like, can I come and commentate on this thing? People were like, you know about it. Now it seems obvious. No, it was his passion, it was his joy. He did that thing, and now it seems obvious. And so I think sometimes we make the mistake of only thinking about where we'll go because it might become something and not just because we want to do. The Wright brothers did not think I would say. I don't know. You've probably read more on it. I don't think they thought about airline industries. Yeah. The Wright brothers were probably just like.

[C]

Man, proving that girlfriends wrong.

[A]

They wanted to be cool to fly. Wouldn't it be cool to fly?

[C]

They just wanted to prove their girlfriends wrong.

[A]

You're never gonna fly.

[C]

Mark the next thing.

[A]

Air crashing. Oh, damn.

[B]

Maybe. Maybe they were the version of the teacher that said, imagine you could fly.

[A]

Exactly. Exactly.

[B]

And they said, oh, yeah.

[C]

And a few months before that, they read an article that said, this thing will never happen.

[A]

This thing will never. Yeah. So I think. I think that's all it is, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And that's. That's why you were here. So thank you. Thank you for this, by the way. Thank you for the conversation.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[A]

Most importantly, thank you for putting you out there, because we've all benefited from it.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

And I can't wait to see what you do now. I mean, I'm in curling in a way that I didn't mean it to be.

[B]

In February, I'll have a video for you.

[A]

I was already gonna watch for the jokes, but now I'm there for the science as well. She did it again, folks. Cleo's done it again. This was fun. Thank you.

[B]

Thank you, guys.

[A]

All right, cheers.

[C]

Cleo, thank you very much. For real.

[A]

Thank you so much.

[B]

Likewise.

[C]

You were worth the hype.

[A]

You were like.

[C]

You delivered and surpassed what now with.

[A]

Trevor Noah is produced by Day Zero Productions in partnership with survival SiriusXM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin and Jess Hackle. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robio. Music mixing and mastering by Hannis Brown. Random other stuff by Ryan Harduf. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of what Now. Adam Pally here. And I'm John Gabris. We're a couple actors and best friends.

[C]

Who you may know as the host.

[A]

Of the TV show 101 Places to Party before you die. Now we're bringing you a comedic look at health and wellness with our new show, Staying Alive. We'll have guests like our friend, actor Jerry O', Connell, ketamine therapist, Dr. Stephen Radowitz, Paul Shear, Ego Wodom, Jillian Bell, Dr. Doolittle. Staying alive with John Gabris. And Adam Pali is out right now. Get them a week early and ad free with Sirius XM Podcast plus on Apple Podcasts.

[B]

Hi, I'm Kaitlin Coleman, winner of Target's HBCU Design challenge. This challenge moved me closer to my dream of becoming a fashion designer through mentorship and support. You can find my design, along with creations from other black founders in Target's Black History Month collection.