What Now? with Trevor Noah

Episode: Cleo Abram: What Could Go Right?

Date: February 5, 2026
Host: Trevor Noah
Guests: Cleo Abram, Eugene

Episode Overview

This rich and entertaining episode of What Now? explores optimism in media, the power of curiosity, and the evolving landscape of independent content creation. Trevor Noah is joined by Cleo Abram, renowned explainer journalist and creator of the YouTube show “Huge If True,” and his frequent collaborator Eugene. The conversation navigates the joys and perils of seeking optimism in a pessimistic media environment, the science behind seemingly ordinary phenomena, the imperative of maintaining mission over metrics, the reality of going independent, and the surprising importance of curiosity, humor, and experimentation—on and off YouTube.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Mission of Optimistic Explainer Journalism

• Cleo's Philosophy: Cleo describes her goal to create videos that are genuinely explanatory, visually captivating, and fundamentally optimistic.

  • "The premise of the show is, I'm going to genuinely explain something to you that's complicated that I want you to understand. I'm gonna do it in a way that is, in the end, optimistic." (07:56)
  • She avoids rage-bait or pessimistic content, aiming instead to inspire participation and show real-world problem solving.
  • Her metric for success is if an episode is "genuinely a good explainer, genuinely optimistic, and visually stunning" (08:48).

• Audience and Creator Mission: Cleo and Trevor discuss the importance of having clear guiding principles for creation.

  • “It really helps to have a mission.” – Cleo (12:48)
  • Described her show as a “menu of stories and options and futures that could come true to people that might be able to help make them happen.” (26:27)
  • The value of bringing more people into early-stage conversations about technology (like AI or quantum computing) rather than letting a few gatekeepers shape the future (32:31).

Navigating Pessimism and Helplessness in Media

• The Problem with Negative Coverage:

  • Cleo cites a 1903 NYT article, "Flying Machines Which Do Not Fly," published two months before the Wright Brothers made their breakthrough. She uses this to show how knee-jerk pessimism stifles deeper thinking and healthy discourse about the future (20:45–21:44).
  • “Maybe there's also this, like, hype cycle ... why is this really a problem? ... The first is that it stops the conversation from getting interesting ... the second ... kind of, maybe it's a nihilism that takes hold when people don't believe that the world can get better and that they can help make that happen.” (21:43–24:37)

• Pessimism vs. Productive Challenge:

  • Eugene suggests, "A healthy amount of pessimism is a good catalyst for people to act," referencing teachers who fuel drive through their doubts (25:06).
  • Trevor notes that positive catalysts might be more broadly beneficial: "I sometimes think to myself ... a more positive catalyst is one that prompts your optimism as opposed to ..." (25:25)

The Influence of Pop Culture on Tech Anxiety

• AI, Culture, and Expectations:
  • Trevor discusses how the general public’s fear of AI is shaped more by sci-fi movies than reality (27:14).
  • He observes that, per a recent poll, Africans view AI more optimistically than Westerners—suggesting a societal context for technological trust/disdain (28:01–29:00).

Humor, Curiosity, and the Art of Explanation

• Humor as a Teaching Tool:

  • Trevor points out the subtle humor in Cleo’s work–using Mark Rober’s voice for an asteroid, making dinosaur digs fun.
  • “Because you teach well. Genuinely. Because you teach well. It’s easy to consume, it’s easy to digest, and it’s engaging.” (30:40)

• Positioning Herself as the Audience Proxy:

  • “I'm not an expert in anything that I'm talking about ... my goal ... I'm a proxy for the audience ... I'm there to recontextualize what the expert is saying, to kind of translate for them a little bit. Like, that's the magic of what we do.” (31:09)
  • Explainers that are too complicated “just don’t bring people in.” (31:29)

• Curiosity Is Fundamental:

  • Trevor: “Once we stop being curious, we stop growing ... and I've always ... the only way you can invent something is to imagine it first.” (79:48–80:28)
  • Cleo: “There's an endless amount of interesting things to know when you don't stop at, 'oh, that looks a little funny.'” (75:47–75:54)

Going Independent—Risks and Rewards

• Why Cleo Left Vox:

  • “I wanted to make it, and I wanted to know if other people wanted to watch it ... I just knew I wouldn’t be able to do that in the way that I really wanted to do it, and I wouldn’t be able to test whether the actual thing that was in my brain was the thing that other people wanted if I was inside a big media company.” (94:40)

• The Three Big Trends in Media:

  1. YouTube is displacing television (“YouTube is eating television.” – 106:52)
  2. Creators are going independent (110:19)
  3. There’s a growing desire for optimism in news (“part of a story about pessimism itself ... Huge is something different.” – 111:16)

• Responsibility & Accountability in New Media:

  • Trevor voices concerns about accountability when traditional institutions are replaced by distributed creators (109:08).

• Handling Success and Identity:

  • Trevor and Cleo explore how not tying self-worth to audience reception or virality is crucial for creative longevity (101:26–104:27).
  • “The true mastery of being an artist requires you to know that you are not your work and your work is not you.” – Trevor citing The War of Art (104:27)

On Curiosity, Science, and Entertaining the Impossible

• Explaining Things—From Curling to CERN:

  • Cleo is working on an explainer about curling, describing the hidden physics mysteries in the sport (69:09–73:28).
  • Trevor: “Now I'm gonna be watching the Olympics, watching curling, trying to figure out why the stone spins the way it does.” (72:18)
  • The group laughs about making science sexy, and how sometimes comedy and science intersect through curiosity (63:03).

• The Value of “Huge If True” Thinking:

  • Addressing far-fetched claims (like aliens channeled through YouTube personalities), Cleo focuses on what makes the topic appealing and pivots discussion to real scientific questions (54:31–55:47).
  • “When I tell stories, I want to make a video ... what is the most realistic case where we might encounter aliens? ... You try and show them the science and the technology that you’re convinced is real through the scientific method, but that gets at this thing that they are excited about.” (61:46)

Building a More Participatory Future

• Involving All Stakeholders:

  • Trevor tells a story about a student journalist at a Microsoft AI event, who asked, “Do you have any students on your panel?”—reminding everyone of the importance of including those for whom technology is being designed (34:47).

• The Power of Setting Criteria Over Clicks:

  • Cleo frames her safeguard against chasing virality as focusing on the three criteria for her show, not her personal popularity, and thus not trying to become what the metrics demand (101:26–103:39).

• Encouraging Others to Embark, Not Just Escape:

  • Trevor reflects on honoring those who “embark” rather than “escape”—leaving safe, established careers or companies by choice, not necessity (117:44).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On optimism and the burden of pessimism in news:
  • “If the world is just getting worse and I can’t do anything about it, and I’m not seeing stories about people that are helping make it better ... then why should I try?” – Cleo (24:09)
• On audience responsibility:
  • “Most people hear about the future when it has largely been set up by a smaller number of people. And my belief is that if you bring people more into the earlier parts of the conversation ... more people at the beginning of that process is a good thing.” – Cleo (32:06)
• On responding to skepticism and the unknown:
  • “Can you offer more? ... Can you offer anything that allows them to do that thing they do in a direction that has more for them to do it to?” – Cleo (65:45)
• On creative independence:
  • “The bet that YouTube made was incredible ... if we give a platform and split advertising revenue with anyone in the world who could make great things ... that is actually the way that we will get the work that the most people want to watch.” – Cleo (108:18)
• On climbing the right mountain:
  • "It's only when you get to what you have to define as your peak that you stop and go, oh, this is lovely ... what mountains do I want to climb? Do I want to go walk in valleys?" – Trevor (126:45)
• On legacy and the value of new media:
  • “If someone looks at this portal that was Open, which is YouTube ... it's equivalent to a thousand years ago to written and spoken word scrolls ... there's ideas ... Everything that you're speaking about now might be obvious in 100 years, but will never be new again." – Eugene (124:40)
• On creative joy and awe:
  • "My show allows me to have that feeling a lot. I have that feeling a lot about ... planes and vaccines and, you know, the fact that water comes out of a tap when you open it, like, it is ridiculous." – Cleo (88:01)

Important Segments & Timestamps

[06:34] Balancing virality with responsibility
[07:56 – 09:24] Cleo’s three pillars: Explainer, optimism, visuals
[20:44 – 24:44] Pessimism in the media: NYT "Flying Machines" and its modern relevance
[27:14 – 29:03] AI, pop culture, and trust: African optimism
[30:01 – 31:29] Humor in education, being the audience proxy
[39:04 – 45:23] The complexities of online voting and digital risk
[53:59 – 61:46] Investigating conspiracies, aliens, and channeling curiosity into science
[69:09 – 73:54] Science of curling, hidden mysteries, making "boring" topics fascinating
[94:40 – 98:04] Why go independent? Handling fear and creative control
[108:18 – 111:55] The three mega-trends revolutionizing media
[117:44 – 118:36] Why people are uncomfortable with others going "rogue"
[126:45 – 132:12] Trevor’s mountain analogy: When you finish climbing the “expected” mountains in life

Episode Tone & Style

As always, the episode is full of banter, playful jabs, and spontaneous humor—Trevor’s signature style keeps things energetic and accessible, even as profound themes are discussed. Eugene acts as both comic relief and “left brain,” while Cleo’s curiosity and optimism radiate throughout, blending humility with deep expertise.

Summary Conclusion

This thoughtful, laughter-filled episode exemplifies what happens when mission and curiosity trump metrics and conformity in creative work. Cleo Abram’s “Huge If True” is a case study in setting optimistic, rigorous, and visionary standards for modern journalism and education. Trevor’s probing and reflective host style, paired with lively sidekick Eugene, together explore the joys—and challenges—of making new things, leaving mainstream institutions, and embracing the unknown with humor, wonder, and integrity.

Memorable sign-off:

"Curling in a way that I didn't mean it to be ... She did it again, folks. Cleo's done it again. This was fun. Thank you." – Trevor Noah ([136:03])