Podcast Title: What Now? with Trevor Noah
Episode: RIP… D.E.I. with Ruha Benjamin
Release Date: February 13, 2025
Host: Trevor Noah
Guest: Dr. Ruha Benjamin, MacArthur Genius, Professor at Princeton University
Additional Participant: Christiana Mbakwe

Introduction

In this enlightening episode of What Now? with Trevor Noah, host Trevor Noah engages in a profound conversation with Dr. Ruha Benjamin, a renowned sociologist and MacArthur Fellow, alongside Christiana Mbakwe. The discussion delves deep into the realms of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI), the role of universities in societal transformation, abolitionist politics in education, and the multifaceted implications of Artificial Intelligence (AI) in our modern world.

DEI: Successes and Failures

The conversation kicks off with a candid evaluation of DEI initiatives. Trevor poses the critical question: “Has DEI failed? Was it bound to fail?” at [05:26]. Dr. Benjamin responds thoughtfully, expressing skepticism about DEI's effectiveness. She asserts, “I was never a big booster of DEI... it always felt like a concession, a placeholder for something that could be more transformative” ([05:26]). According to her, DEI often becomes a permanent, superficial fix rather than a stepping stone towards genuine institutional transformation. She highlights the transient nature of DEI programs, noting their vulnerability in the face of political and economic shifts, such as companies dissolving DEI departments post-George Floyd’s murder ([06:00]).

Representation vs. Systemic Change

Christiana Mbakwe brings up a viral moment where Dr. Benjamin stated, “Black faces in high places will not save us” at [06:34]. This provocative stance challenges the conventional belief in representational politics. Dr. Benjamin elaborates by sharing her experiences of being positioned as the "black face" in scientific programs, which placed her on a pedestal while simultaneously making her vulnerable if she chose to dissent ([07:15]). She argues that true inclusion requires more than just representation; it demands a fundamental rethinking of the systems we integrate into.

The Role of Universities in Facilitating Dialogue

Trevor critiques universities for their inability to serve as bastions of open dialogue. He reminisces about blocking speakers like Ben Shapiro at universities, questioning the institutions' role in shielding students from controversial ideas ([19:42]). Dr. Benjamin agrees, emphasizing that universities are often complicit in maintaining the status quo due to their deep entanglement with profit-driven motives and the military-industrial complex ([20:06]). She advocates for universities to foster environments where difficult conversations can lead to genuine understanding and progress.

Personal Experiences: Activism and Academia

Dr. Benjamin shares her personal journey, including her probation at Princeton due to her activism with pro-Palestinian student movements ([12:39]). She recounts how institutions often celebrate her academic accolades while simultaneously penalizing her for challenging their policies ([13:45]). This duality underscores the conflict between personal integrity and institutional compliance. She highlights the broader issue of how oppressed groups within institutions are often tasked with maintaining the very systems that oppress them ([06:34]).

Educational Systems and Alternative Models

The discussion shifts to educational reform, with Dr. Benjamin contrasting the rigid American educational model with Finland’s more flexible, play-oriented approach ([36:34]). She praises Finland for prioritizing play, imagination, and conflict resolution in early education, which fosters well-rounded individuals capable of creative and constructive problem-solving ([37:45]). This approach contrasts sharply with the American tendency to expel or isolate students who do not fit the "average" mold, advocating instead for systems that nurture diverse forms of intelligence and creativity ([32:10]).

AI: Optimism, Risks, and Ruha Benjamin's Approach

Trevor and Dr. Benjamin explore the potentials and pitfalls of AI. Trevor expresses optimism about AI’s ability to enhance sectors like healthcare and education, citing AI’s role in early breast cancer detection and personalized learning ([52:00]). However, Dr. Benjamin warns against the dominant focus on artificial intelligence, advocating for the development of ancestral intelligence and abundant imagination AI models that prioritize collective wisdom and creativity ([48:15]). She underscores the importance of addressing the human and environmental costs of AI, such as labor exploitation and significant energy consumption ([50:47]).

Language, Power, and Free Speech

A significant portion of the dialogue addresses the complexities of language and power, especially in the context of the Israel-Palestine conflict. Trevor grapples with how the same phrase, “From the river to the sea, Palestine shall be free,” is interpreted differently by Palestinians and Israelis ([64:50]). Dr. Benjamin discusses the power dynamics in language, emphasizing that language can perpetuate oppression unless it is carefully crafted to reflect inclusive and accurate narratives ([67:23]). She argues that storytelling and context are crucial in combating biases that pure data cannot resolve ([55:22]).

Conclusion

The episode concludes with reflections on solidarity and the potential for institutions to evolve. Dr. Benjamin shares her hope that academic departments can become models of inclusive and community-driven environments, even within larger, profit-oriented institutions ([82:16]). Trevor and Dr. Benjamin both emphasize the importance of imagination and collective action in creating a more equitable and understanding society.

Notable Quotes

• Dr. Ruha Benjamin at [05:26]: “I was never a big booster of DEI... it always felt like a concession, a placeholder for something that could be more transformative.”

• Christiana Mbakwe at [03:47]: “But let me say this lady has a MacArthur, like the genius.”

• Dr. Ruha Benjamin at [07:15]: “...when you start to challenge them, then they try to put you in your place.”

• Trevor Noah at [32:10]: “...you have to expel Trevor from that environment because he's not good for that environment.”

• Dr. Ruha Benjamin at [36:34]: “What we really need to rethink is what we consider education and excellence and achievement because everyone could ultimately benefit from those changes.”

• Trevor Noah at [54:31]: “I found myself thinking about how every group is affected by another group in some way, shape, or form.”

• Dr. Ruha Benjamin at [67:23]: “They don't simply live at the realm of speech, but at the realm of action.”

Final Thoughts

This episode offers a critical examination of DEI initiatives, the role of universities, and the impact of AI through the insightful perspectives of Dr. Ruha Benjamin. The dialogue underscores the necessity of systemic change over superficial inclusion and highlights the intricate interplay between language, power, and societal structures. For listeners seeking a deep dive into contemporary social issues with intellectual rigor and personal anecdotes, this episode is both rich and enlightening.