The Real Malala: Jeans, Crushes, & Healing

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Real Malala: Jeans, Crushes, & Healing"

Podcast: What Now? with Trevor Noah
Host: Trevor Noah
Guest: Malala Yousafzai
Release Date: October 16, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this deeply personal and refreshingly candid episode, Trevor Noah sits down with renowned activist and Nobel Peace Prize winner Malala Yousafzai to explore the multi-faceted complexities of her life beyond global icon status. They dive into themes of personal identity, healing from trauma, the pressures of activism, girlhood and belonging, culture clash, and Malala’s journey to reclaiming her full humanity—including humor, friendships, family, fashion, and even her crushes. Together, they reflect on the tensions of public life, the power of small joys, and the enduring fight for girls’ education, anchoring these global conversations in the most personal of experiences.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Life Post-Attack: Trauma, Healing, and Identity

• Malala on the Aftermath
  After her 2012 shooting, Malala describes waking up in a UK hospital, isolated, unable to walk or talk, and surrounded by strangers:
  • “I had to learn to walk and talk again. For me, I thought: this is another life. I am reborn.” (08:40)
• Losing and Reclaiming Herself
  • The global outpouring turned her into more than a person—a symbol. Malala shares how she began to lose "Omalala, the funny one" and internalized the image of herself as saintly, forsaking parts of her youthful self.
    • “I just forgot who I was actually meant to be before any of this had happened… All of that was gone.” (09:55)

2. The Pressure & the "Saint" Persona

• Being Seen but Not Seen
  • Trevor reflects: “People made you hypervisible, but then also invisible at the same time.” (14:04)
  • Malala recalls being compared to "Mother Teresa or Dalai Lama" by friends—expected to live an impossibly virtuous life.
• The Cost of Activism
  • Discussing parallels with South African activists, Trevor says: “Activism… is fighting for something so that we can be. But if you’re stuck in activism, there’s no being.” (10:40)

3. Rediscovering Joy: University Life, Friendships, and Crushes

• Finding Normalcy at Oxford
  • University offered Malala freedom from her parents’ (and the world’s) watchful eye: “In college, I had one goal: to make as many friends as possible…I found safety and comfort.” (16:14)
• Her First Book Tour & Awkwardness of Press
  • Trevor and Malala banter about the strangeness of discussing a book no one’s yet read (03:48).
• Hidden Humor
  • Malala says humor was key to her healing, and people are often shocked she's funny: “For me, being funny…has been a process of healing.” (07:59)
• Crushes and Boy Drama
  • Malala candidly shares her infatuation with a mysterious “bad boy” at Oxford named Tariq and why she never acted on it:
    • “He would just come to my room and eat bananas and any snacks and then leave…For me, I knew that I could not be with Tariq. Tariq Was just an idea.” (86:54)
• Meeting Her Husband
  • She reveals her journey from hard questions about marriage to finding partnership: “ASR never received me as the Malala. For him, he saw the Malala that was in front of him.” (91:09)
• Navigating Family and Feminist Expectations
  • On her viral “jeans scandal” in college and family backlash:
    • “If people are criticizing my jeans, I think I’m going to continue wearing jeans. I am not going to defend it and I’m going to move on.” (39:45)

4. Culture, Belonging, and Home

• Longing for Pakistan
  • Malala describes the ache of exile, revisiting her home, the vivid nostalgia for Pakistani fruits (esp. mangoes), chai, and landscapes.
    • “Sometimes I would open Google Maps and zoom in on the street and look at the rivers and mountains…thinking about the time I had spent there as a child.” (17:49)
• On Refugees and Empathy
  • “Becoming a refugee is the last resort. It’s the last and the only option…No one wants that.” (32:14)
• Hospitality and Community
  • She recounts displacement during the Swat Valley conflict and the Pakistani tradition of strangers opening their homes (33:45).

5. Trauma, Therapy, and the Value of Vulnerability

• First Panic Attack and the Journey to Therapy
  • Shares her first panic attack at Oxford, triggered by a bong hit, and subsequent struggles:
    • “I thought I was dead again…Even though I don’t remember anything about the incident, I thought it was all happening in repeat…” (54:58)
  • On seeking therapy for the first time: “The therapist was very helpful…In the first session, I thought, ‘fix the problem!’ She was just nodding.” (60:36)
• Breaking Stigma Around Mental Health
  • Trevor and Malala debate how all societies, even traditional ones, had some form of therapy, be it elders or healing rituals (65:21).
  • Malala reflects on the added scrutiny of public life, which makes vulnerability so difficult. (66:00)

6. Social Media, Context, and Judgment

• The Cruelty & Absurdity of Online Life
  • Both share stories of being misunderstood or attacked online, and how context is lost:
    • “People on social media are oftentimes talking about a conversation about you. You are never there.” (71:24)
  • Malala recounts the fallout from her comments about marriage in a British Vogue interview: “People said Malala is against marriage, then against Nikah…By the time you explain yourself…it's too late, it’s gone.” (75:29)
• Gen Z & New Approaches
  • Trevor sees hope in Gen Z’s “unfiltered, messy” approach to social media breaking out of Millennial perfectionism (71:44).

7. Family, Gender Roles, and Evolving Traditions

• Double Standards in Family Life
  • Malala points out how she faced scrutiny for jeans but her brothers got a pass: “Have you ever pointed a finger at your two sons and what they wear?…Yes, I think you are right.” (42:03)
• Powerful Parental Role Models
  • Credits her father’s support and the way he treated her mother for shaping her own expectations:
    • “He always tells this story: ‘Don’t ask me what I did. Ask me what I didn’t do for my daughter. I did not clip her wings.’” (43:39)
• Married Life & Division of Labor
  • Humorous account of arguing with her husband about dishes and calling out “patriarchy”—and how little dramas at home are both normal and deeply meaningful:
    • “I have never seen him, like, leave his glass. Yeah.” (94:47)

8. Activism, Agency, and Girls’ Education Globally

• From Local Fights to Global Advocacy
  • Emphasizes supporting local organizations over “savior” models:
    • “You cannot fix these problems from DC or London…Our investments actually go to local organizations in Tanzania, Ethiopia, Pakistan, India, Brazil, Afghanistan…” (29:30)
• Girls as Agents of Change
  • “These are girls who are determined, they have a voice, they have agency, and they’re actually fighting for their rights...We just need to listen to them.” (26:34)
• On Afghanistan’s Taliban and “Gender Apartheid”
  • Malala forcefully describes the Taliban’s ban on education for women and girls, and the role of international complicity: “They are punishing women for disobeying…systemic crime where they are abusing their power.” (95:51-99:51)
  • Calls for global action to support Afghan activists and to center women in peace talks. (104:02)

9. Belonging, Change, and the Fullness of Self

• Redefining Belonging
  • Malala reflects on homesickness, the enduring connection to her Pakistani roots, and the comfort she now finds in friends, family, and the world:
    • “A part of me belongs to that soil, to that air…now…I don’t find that home and belonging just in locations…but among the people.” (108:46)
• Key Takeaways (Trevor’s Reflections)
  • “We should never take for granted the power and value of belonging… And…it’s always a work in progress…Life is a work in progress. We’re still trying to figure it out.” (107:37)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Time | Quote/Exchange | |---------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 07:59 | Malala: “For me, being funny…has been a process of healing.” | | 14:04 | Trevor: “People made you hypervisible, but then also invisible at the same time.” | | 10:40 | Trevor: “Activism…is fighting for something so that we can be. But if you’re stuck in activism, there’s no being.” | | 13:49 | Malala: “When I have done interviews, people are quite surprised. I make a very basic joke and people laugh out loud. It’s like a very basic joke.” | | 21:41 | Malala (on Pakistani mangoes): “Pakistani mangoes are so good…They're so sweet. I can't even explain. You have to try them.” | | 34:43 | Malala (on Googling what to wear at Oxford): “I searched up Selena Gomez 2017 casual style… Emma Watson…what are these cool girls wearing that I want to wear as well?” | | 39:45 | Malala: “If people are criticizing my jeans, I think I’m going to continue wearing jeans. I am not going to defend it and I’m going to move on.” | | 54:58 | Malala (on her panic attack): “I thought I was dead again. I thought I had been attacked… it was all happening in repeat.” | | 60:36 | Malala: “The therapist was very helpful…In the first session, I thought, ‘fix the problem!’ She was just nodding.” | | 71:24 | Malala: “People on social media are oftentimes talking about a conversation about you. You are never there.” | | 91:09 | Malala (on her husband): “He saw the Malala that was in front of him…he accepted me for who I was and who I was becoming.” | | 94:47 | Malala: “I have never seen him, like, leave his glass. Yeah.” (on persuading her husband to pick up after himself) | | 104:28 | Trevor: “We all have an obligation…to think of ourselves as the people we’re trying to help.” | | 108:46 | Malala: “For me, I see a sense of belonging in a very different way…I don’t find that home and belonging just in the locations…but among the people.” |

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:13] Starting the conversation, Malala’s current whirlwind schedule
• [07:59] Humor as healing & the surprises of public persona
• [13:49] On people’s “saintly” expectations of her
• [16:52] Making friends at Oxford and the freedom of college life
• [21:41] Pakistani mangoes, nostalgia, and cultural longing
• [25:52] The reality of childhood under Taliban occupation
• [32:14] The refugee experience and the value of empathy
• [39:45] The “jeans controversy” and double standards for girls
• [54:58] Malala’s panic attack, college pressures, and mental health journey
• [65:21] Therapy, traditional healing, and reclaiming mental health worldwide
• [71:24] Social media, context, and surviving digital judgments
• [75:29] The fallout from being misunderstood in the press
• [86:54] Malala’s “first love” and crush confessions
• [91:09] Real partnership, love, and being her full self with her husband
• [95:51] The Taliban’s ban on Afghan girls' education and the meaning of “gender apartheid”
• [104:28] The moral imperative to see the humanity and agency of those we want to help
• [108:46] Belonging, memory, and carrying “home” within yourself

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Episode Tone

The conversation balances profound vulnerability, warmth, and humor. Trevor’s effortless blend of playful teasing and deep empathy brings out Malala’s unfiltered voice, revealing her as intensely human—funny, self-critical, questioning, occasionally messy, and always thoughtful. The episode weaves the political with the personal, global struggles with small joys, inviting listeners to witness Malala as both icon and ordinary young woman.

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Summary Takeaways

• Malala Yousafzai is not just a global symbol, but a woman continually wrestling with identity, joy, and healing.
• Activism can be isolating; being and belonging are just as vital as fighting.
• Restoring lost parts of oneself—humor, friendship, even love—is itself an act of survival and resistance.
• Small details—jeans, mangoes, “fish fingers,” crushes—carry big meanings about identity and freedom.
• The struggle for girls’ education is ongoing and depends on local agency, solidarity, and empathy—not outsiders swooping in.
• Healing from trauma is messy, nonlinear, and requires help—from friends, therapists, and inner resolve.
• Powerful, memorable, and practical stories showcase how even icons yearn to be seen as fully human.

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For anyone eager to understand Malala’s life beyond the headlines—and the nuance, pain, and joy of being her—this episode is a must-listen.

Transcript

[Malala Yousafzai]

Alala defied a ban prohibiting girls from attending school, posting an anonymous blog about the restrictive life for women and children in Pakistan.

[Trevor Noah]

It made her a target.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Taliban militants shot her in the head on her school bus. She was flown to the UK for medical treatment and has lived there ever since. She has since become the youngest ever Nobel Peace Prize winner and a fierce advocate for the rights of girls and.

[Trevor Noah]

Women around the world.

[Malala Yousafzai]

I had a historic moment here when I spoke at the un. One child, one teacher, one book and pen can change the world.

[Trevor Noah]

Malala Yousafzai Taking to Instagram to celebrate completing her degree in philosophy, politics and.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Economics at Oxford, Malala Yousafzai is working.

[Trevor Noah]

On a new memoir.

[Malala Yousafzai]

It will be her most personal book yet.

[Trevor Noah]

This is what now with Trevor Noah. Mint is still $15 a month for premium wireless and if you haven't made the switch yet, here are 15 reasons why you should. 1. It's $15 a month.

[Malala Yousafzai]

2.

[Trevor Noah]

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[Malala Yousafzai]

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[Trevor Noah]

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[Malala Yousafzai]

4.

[Trevor Noah]

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[Malala Yousafzai]

Three month plan $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.

[Trevor Noah]

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[Malala Yousafzai]

London? I'm good.

[Trevor Noah]

Like now.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh but you get time back. I like that. I don't know if you do.

[Malala Yousafzai]

No, I like when I have extra hours.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, I feel like I'm time traveling.

[Malala Yousafzai]

I am not like I like just more hours to live. I like the days to be longer.

[Trevor Noah]

I mean that's one way to think of it. I always, I just feel like I've cheated in a like a.

[Malala Yousafzai]

No, it feels really good.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. I feel like I've cheated the system.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes. I'm like it was such a productive day. How did I manage so many things? It's like you had like seven extra hours.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, it's exactly that feeling. Okay, so London and then how long are you here for?

[Malala Yousafzai]

A week.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And then from here back to London.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes, but then I go to Egypt to visit some of the projects we are supporting for the Gaza refugees, Palestinian refugees, and then we go to Nigeria for our board meeting. And then I come back to London, do more press. Then I go to la, do more press, New York, more press. And then the book is finally out, and then I start the tour.

[Trevor Noah]

Then you start the book tour? Yeah, I think you'll enjoy the book. You've done them before?

[Malala Yousafzai]

Not like a big tour. No, no, this is my first proper book tour.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, did you. Did you enjoy the last one that you did?

[Malala Yousafzai]

The last one?

[Trevor Noah]

I was still in school, so you couldn't really like.

[Malala Yousafzai]

So I did two events.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, no, that's. No, that's not a tour then.

[Malala Yousafzai]

No, that's not.

[Trevor Noah]

That's definitely not a tour. You know what I like about the book tour the most is. Look, I don't know. I don't know how you'll feel about. But I. I feel like that's where you. You reap the reward, actually, for the first time of the book.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah, I'm excited. I mean, I haven't experienced it yet, like, most of.

[Trevor Noah]

Because my experience was, you write the book, you write the book, you write the book. And then for me, at least, it was, what am I doing? This is taking forever. This is so hard. Then the editor comes back with notes, and then you got to do more writing, and then you're counting, then you're not. Then you're like, what do you leave out? What do you put in? It's just this process, process. Finally it's done. And then it's like, what cover do you want? What. You know what I mean? The process, process, process, process. And then it's only when you're on tour for the first time with the book that you see people, like, interact with it.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes. Yeah, yeah. And then there's this time before the release when you're doing press about the book. About the book. So, you know, you're like, the book is not out yet, but let me tell you everything about the book. And I find it really awkward. I'm like, it's a secret, but you all need to know about it. But I was so surprised to find you downstairs.

[Trevor Noah]

What do you mean?

[Malala Yousafzai]

Because the first time when we met for the Daily Show.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Malala Yousafzai]

You were very late.

[Trevor Noah]

Was I?

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes, I was waiting for the. Sounds like the studio.

[Trevor Noah]

Sounds like me.

[Malala Yousafzai]

I. I waited for a Very long time.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, yeah, yeah. No. So I wonder what year you came in. So when.

[Malala Yousafzai]

2019 beginning, maybe.

[Trevor Noah]

Can I tell you, that was like, those were, like, some of the hardest years of my life. And one of the things that always would get me at the Daily show was you're trying to make a show.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And you're trying to do it about the news. And then there were the years when. I mean, now we're back in the years, but it was the years when Donald Trump is now in power. Right. So the way the Daily show used to work with Jon Stewart was they would watch the news the night before.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And then the day of, they would make the show, and then you would put it out.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And then when I became the host, when Trump came into power, the news of the night before meant nothing, absolutely nothing. And so sometimes it would be 2pm after rehearsal. We're literally done. And then people would come in and go, everything you wrote is trash. Everything's wrong. They've changed. This. This has not happened. There's a new thing. Trump spoke on the White House lawn. There's a new law they put. And then we'd have to rewrite the show completely. And so oftentimes, it meant whoever was sitting in the back waiting for us. Were you watching it on, like, the screen? Like, I'm trying to think of where.

[Malala Yousafzai]

You were in the waiting room.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, yeah, in the, in the.

[Malala Yousafzai]

In the.

[Trevor Noah]

But we had snacks.

[Malala Yousafzai]

You had snacks.

[Trevor Noah]

I like delicious snacks.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Delicious snacks.

[Trevor Noah]

I tried to make sure there were as many delicious snacks as possible.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes. It was a very nice, cozy space. I enjoyed my time.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, well, this time I was on the street.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah. But I was surprised to find you here. I was like, wait a second. He's not just waiting for me in the studio. He's waiting for me on the street to receive.

[Trevor Noah]

You are, Malala.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Thank you so much.

[Trevor Noah]

This is where you should be, in the street, waiting to receive the people. There's also not as much money doing a podcast versus the Daily Show. Yeah, with the Daily show, there's someone to do that. I just have to do it myself here.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Understandable.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, I, I. No, I like it. You know what it is? It's like. It's. You know what? It's actually a perfect segue into. Like, what you said in the book, we very seldom get to think about the identities that we've adopted for, you know, or, or the, The. The identities we've inherited because of things that have happened to us. And so mine, in a very different way to yours. People have an idea of me as a person, so they go, you are like this. Some people think I'm very funny. Some people think I'm, like, only funny, even. Some people think I'm very serious. Some people think I'm only political. Some people think I'm stupid. Some people think I'm whatever, but I'm all those things. Do you know what I mean? And so, in many ways, like, the beginning of your book touched me, and I think it'll touch so many people because it starts in a place that personalizes your story in a way that, honestly, I didn't expect. And it's you lying in a hospital bed, people operating on you because of a gunshot wound. And in that moment, you've already inherited a story, and there's a journey that's been. That's been put forth for you. And so I. I wonder that, like, when I was reading that, I was going, oh, how am I like, when I meet Malala? Am I. Do I defer too much? Should I treat her more normally? Then I'm like, ah, but I'm not gonna roast Malala. Is that. But do you roast people? How do you. Do you find that people are, like. Are weird around you, for lack of a better term?

[Malala Yousafzai]

When people meet me, what shocks them most is that I'm funny. You know, for me, being funny humor has been a process of healing, and I do not want to talk about the difficult parts. And it's not that I feel uncomfortable talking about them. I easily can explain it to people what happened, and for me, it's just a series of events that I'm telling. Yeah, I think it's a blessing for me that I do not remember the incident, but I do remember when I woke up and how I felt. I was grateful that I was alive, but I was in a hospital in Birmingham in the uk, not in my country anymore, and my parents were not there with me for 10 days. They joined after that. So I had to figure out what was happening. Who are these strangers? Speaking in English I had never traveled outside Pakistan, and I had to just process the fact that, yes, something horrible had happened, but I did not know what exactly. And, yeah, so, you know, this is a story I tell people. I can tell people about how long it took me to recover. I had to learn to, like, walk and talk again. And, you know, and this was truly me. Like, for me, I thought, this is another life. I am reborn. And I felt it. Like, I couldn't even speak in the beginning. I couldn't even walk. In the beginning, I felt like I was learning to crawl and to get up. So at that time, my focus quickly shifted to the attention that I was now receiving globally because of what had happened. And I was getting all of these requests like, we want to write a book about your life. We want to make a documentary. You have to give your first speech at the un and that's the turn my life took. That in all of that, I just forgot who I was actually meant to be before any of this had happened. Who was Omalala, the funny one who had a lot of friends, who was back in Pakistan? She was studious, but she was cheeky. All of that was gone. And I somehow just thought that, yes, I have lost a lot of things, including joy, including the laughter. And I never thought I could, like, make a best friend or, you know, find love and just be like a normal person. I thought life was now all about activism so much that I thought it. It meant sacrificing everything else.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, there's something I think of when you say that. It reminds me of South African activists, you know, the people who fought for apartheid to end. And I often think about many of the stories that people would tell about the inner. Like, the inner circles.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, the Nelson Mandelas, the Walter Sisulus, the, like, whoever they were. And one of the big things that struck me was I thought to myself, activism, in my opinion, is trying to fight for something so that we can be. You know, and if you. If you're stuck in the activism, there's no being.

[Malala Yousafzai]

No.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, now it's like, this is. This is all I. I'm a fighter. I'm fighting. I'm fighting. And we forget the being. And when. When. When you said that, I was like, oh, yeah, like, Malala being mischievous is something that no one ever thinks of. Mala. I remember the first time you roasted me. Actually, I didn't know what was happening.

[Malala Yousafzai]

I don't remember either.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no. I remember the first time you roasted me. I remember my brain short circuits. I made what I call the Mandela mistake. So Nelson Mandela had been president of South Africa. Obviously, 1994, he becomes president. Right. And I think this was after his presidency. He got honored with a. With a coin that had his face on it. And this was like, the first time. Imagine. First black president, first democratically elected president, but now they're also putting his face on money.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And there was a press conference that was being held, and we got invited to this event. And I distinctly remember a journalist I think they were from the uk and they asked him a very serious question. Very, like, very. And I mean, he's like, you know, he's Nelson Mandela, you know, very funny guy, though, privately, people who knew him, and even publicly sometimes. But the journalist said, Mr. Mandela, how does it feel to live in a country where you were once considered a terrorist and a person who was Persona non grata and now your face is on that same country's currency? How does it feel? And he paused and he goes. He's like, that's how you know you've made it when you have your own money. And he's like, no more socializing with poor people. And I laughed.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And people turned to look. Cause I got the joke. Maybe it's a South Africa, like, the rhythm I got. And people looked at me like, shh, hey. And everyone in the room was just like, mmm, mmm. Yes. So. So I was like, that's not an mmm. The man made a joke. He's saying that he's made it now so he doesn't have to hang out with the pos. Which is crazy, cuz Nelson Mandela would never say that. But I realized I did that with you.

[Malala Yousafzai]

You.

[Trevor Noah]

You roasted me. You said a few things, and I remember going, oh, I think this is a very powerful life lesson that Malala just shared with me when was just like, no, no, she's just roasting you. Like, do you. Do you think people miss you because of that?

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah, I think, you know, that's how my image has been in the public. So when I have done interviews, yes, people are quite surprised. And I make a very basic joke and people laugh out loud. It's like a very basic joke. Like, you know, with your friend Jon Stewart, I just made a joke about, like, you know, Birmingham being as beautiful as New Jersey. And he just could not stop laughing because I was like, yeah, you know, you know, New Jersey anyway, because.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, but I mean, it's because we don't expect it to come from you.

[Malala Yousafzai]

I know.

[Trevor Noah]

You're like a saint.

[Malala Yousafzai]

I know. But I like being funny. I just.

[Trevor Noah]

I like that for you, it's the.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Most beautiful thing, you know, that we can laugh together.

[Trevor Noah]

I really. I like that for you as well, because it's human. And the book is very human. Like, the story you're telling is, dare I say, is like Malala being messy.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah, a bit.

[Trevor Noah]

My words, not yours. My words, not yours. But like, you know, you know, I was looking through some of the parts that really stuck with me and. And I was like, it's amazing how this book feels to me, like you're on this journey of reclaiming something that we as society never thought that we took from you, which was the fullness of who you are as a person, not being one, not being the other. But it's like people made you hyper visible, but then also invisible at the same time.

[Malala Yousafzai]

I think that's a very good description of it, but I don't think it's fully society. I think you internalize it so much that you think that's who you are supposed to be. I feel that's what happened to me. A lot of friends used to, like, joke that I was more like Mother Teresa or a Dalai Lama, that I was supposed to live a life like that. So when I got this opportunity to be in college. And it's like a normal thing, right? Just going to university, going to college. But for me, it was a big deal because, firstly, I was now not under the surveillance of my parents. You know, it's a South Asian family. Yeah. And I could not even, like, go to a friend's gathering there because they were just too worried about my safety and just too scared about something happening. And I could not figure out what that something was gonna be. But I was supposed to be at home, and then I'd, you know, spend the rest of my day at school and then be at these events doing conferences and speeches and interviews. That was how my whole life was. Being an activist. And then this quiet student in a. In a classroom.

[Trevor Noah]

Right.

[Malala Yousafzai]

That when I was in university, I said, okay, the parents are not watching. Nobody's judging you, because nobody technically really knows you, and make as many friends as possible. And I was so glad that I change myself a bit at school. I was a very quiet person.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Malala Yousafzai]

I had become a quiet person in the UK because I was like, you know, I don't know how to fit in. I'm a late comer. I did not make friends on time, and I just only had one best friend. So in college, I had one goal, to make as many friends as possible. I was saying hello to everybody. It sometimes felt awkward, but I said, don't worry about it. And it changed everything for me because I made so many friends who are now friends with me for life. They have changed my life completely. I found safety and comfort among them.

[Trevor Noah]

It also makes me feel like you claimed something that you had lost that people didn't necessarily realize. And I noticed that when you're telling your story, I found it beautiful that you went backwards in time to reclaim Beauty that I think most people wouldn't have assumed existed in your life.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, like, when I think of the story of Malala as it was told in the world, it seemed very much like, oh, she's been rescued. She's been rescued from everything. Thank goodness, Malala, now you get to live in the West. What a beautiful life. Now you have friends. Now you have a future. Now you have hope, you have dreams, you have beauty. And yet in the book, you go backwards. And you painted pictures that made me go, like, I need to go to Pakistan. I need to go see these valleys. I need to eat these fruits. I need to travel through these places. Like, what do you think? Or why do you think that was so important for you to do? To, like, paint those images as vividly as you did as the beginning, as opposed to the beginning that we know.

[Malala Yousafzai]

So when I joined university, I still had not been back to Pakistan. Those memories from my home stayed with me. And that's how I felt a connection to home, because I felt like there was this big disconnection. I could not really connect with that old life. And it was purely these memories, like thinking about my friend, sometimes talking to my old school best friend, Muneeba, and sometimes just opening Google Maps and zooming in on the street and looking at the rivers and the mountains and thinking about the time I had spent there as a child with friends, giggling, laughing.

[Trevor Noah]

And.

[Malala Yousafzai]

And sometimes I would question myself if that was all real and why have I ended up in a place and why can't I go back? So it was around springtime, in my first year of university, when we were on our Easter break, that I told my dad, we have to go back to Pakistan. I have to go see my friends, see my hometown, see my relatives, because I am not feeling okay. I feel incomplete. I think it's. It's affecting me. I'm. And it's. You know, when you feel like this is the last chance that you could see your home or your loved ones.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, I can imagine.

[Malala Yousafzai]

And it just felt that I may not get another chance. It always kept getting delayed. And I said, there will always be an excuse. There's always, like, something happening in the country. The country is beautiful, but there's always something happening.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Malala Yousafzai]

With politics. So I said, you know, it will somehow, like, never be the right time, but we have to go regardless. And we went there, and that was such a fulfilling journey.

[Trevor Noah]

It's beautiful.

[Malala Yousafzai]

We met our friends and family. It was strange. It was, like, comforting. It was all of these feelings were there. And I'm so glad that we did it. I met my school best friend and I could just see how the friends connected with me the most, because for them, it was all of those childhood memories that were coming back. You know, how cheeky we were.

[Trevor Noah]

And they keep a piece of you. That's what I always think. Yes. Like, you know, I know you were a Twilight fan, but, like, for me, it was. It was like Harry Potter was really formative. And I always call my friends my Horcruxes because I feel like your friends keep a piece of you no matter where they are.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And so when you go home, I mean, I experienced this in a very different way. But when I went back to South Africa, you know, like, after hosting the Daily show, when I met with people who had always known me, I realized that they contained parts of me that I hadn't been able to fully explore or enjoy or revel in. Because people in America, not good or bad, they just didn't know that of me.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, so now I had people who could be like, oh, naughty trip, you're back.

[Malala Yousafzai]

You, you.

[Trevor Noah]

You know that, that thing.

[Malala Yousafzai]

No. Suddenly you remember so much about yourself that you had forgotten. I was like, no way. That was me. Yes, I do remember. You know, we were running in the field because we stole some plums from the other relatives, you know, farm or. And I was like, wow. Like, there was once a part of me who was adventurous. And there are so many things that they remember. For them, it's still something that happened recently. It's so vivid in their mind. But you have forgotten things you remember and are not that important to them. It's like, really fascinating.

[Trevor Noah]

Did you. Did you. How did it feel the first time you had a mango again? Like a. Like a mango from Pakistan? I asked this.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Some people won't know. They'll be like, this is the most random question ever. I have a fight with people all over the world and I go, if you come from a place with mangoes, there's a mango from your country that I argue is the best mango in the world. Like, in South Africa, we have some of them. And then in Egypt, I've had amazing mangoes. And I'm trying to think of where.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Brazil.

[Trevor Noah]

Brazil also has some nice mangoes. Mango's not bad in Brazil, but I was like, pakistani mangoes, are they that good?

[Malala Yousafzai]

Pakistani mangoes are so good. They're not there for that long. The season is very, very short. It's just a bit of the July, August time.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Malala Yousafzai]

And so what are they?

[Trevor Noah]

Like, the little yellow ones or the big.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Big.

[Trevor Noah]

But okay, I like that.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Like, yellow ones and they're, like, so sweet. I can't even explain. You have to try them.

[Trevor Noah]

I'll try. I'll try. Did you go back and, like, what was the first thing you had that was just.

[Malala Yousafzai]

I mean, there was not the mango season, because you can't even preserve those mangoes. It's not the same. But I had, like, apples and plums and peaches and apricots and grapes and. And tea. We love chai. We love Pakistani tea, which is. Which has so much milk in it and sugar, and it's boiled for forever.

[Trevor Noah]

Like, they pour again and again and.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Again, boiling, and then just pouring it.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

I think there's actually a place I went to in London where they do that. And it was. The first time I had. It was. It was amazing.

[Malala Yousafzai]

And then you dip your biscuit in it, and then you take a sip of tea, and that's the best feeling ever. And people do that on the hottest day of, like, the summer.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Like, it's. It's afternoon, it's boiling hot, and people are like, let's have a cup of tea. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

I loved. I genuinely. I. I loved how you. I don't know, it felt like. I think a lot of people will feel this when they read the book is like, you. You possess this magical ability to not just weave the tapestry of what you're experiencing, but I feel like you invite the reader to explore their own. Because as you were longing for home, I found myself longing for home. And then as you were re enjoying it, I found myself appreciating the things that I re enjoyed. And it's like. It's beautiful. And it was also real, you know, for instance, there's a story that you share, an anecdote that you share with your younger brother. And coming from South Africa, I think your story made me realize how strange our stories can be, but also how normal they are for everybody who's in them. You know, you tell the story of your younger brother digging a grave.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

But not in, like, a morbid way, but, like, how old? He was, like, five at the time, I think.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah. He was very little. I mean, and he was just, you know, digging a grave. And, like, kids just forgot what it was like to be a child. And what does it mean for kids to play because they were hearing firing and helicopters and the news of people getting killed. So for them, it was just normal to be, like, digging the Ground. And you ask them what they're doing. And he replied, digging a grave. And that's just a reality you accept. Even the police and thief game, I don't know. It's different in every culture, but we call it.

[Trevor Noah]

What do you call it in Pakistan?

[Malala Yousafzai]

Chor police.

[Trevor Noah]

Chor police.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

What is chol. What does that mean?

[Malala Yousafzai]

Chor is like the thief.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay. The thief. Okay, got it, got it, got it.

[Malala Yousafzai]

And people switched it to, like, the Taliban and army.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, damn.

[Malala Yousafzai]

So one kid would be the Taliban, the other kid would be. Then the army, and they would be, like, chasing each other. So it does affect kids a lot. And, you know, we were very young. I was 11 years old when the Taliban announced ban on girls education. And I remember, like, those days when I felt like I could not have a future. That's how they had taken away all the rights from women and girls. And we even would walk to school sometimes, like in our home clothes, not in our school uniforms. We would hide our bags under our hefty long scarf so that they could not see it. And we still continued to go to the school, but we tried to hide it in every possible way we could so the Taliban could not see us. But that's how determined we were. And, you know, at 11, you just want to be a kid playing in school. And here we were, like, sacrificing and fighting, like, risking our lives for our education. Our lives just changed completely in those moments.

[Trevor Noah]

It doesn't seem like you thought you were fighting for something much larger than yourself. You. You were doing the thing that I sometimes think we forget in society, which was you were the people that you now fight for.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Exactly.

[Trevor Noah]

And I'm trying to figure out a more articulate way to say it, but I think in crafting your story and sharing it, you remind us that the people that we're often advocating for, they have agency.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, we often make it like, oh, we're giving to charity. We. Oh, the. The homeless person do this for. And it's like, oh, no, no. You forget that a lot of the time. The people in these situations, they are the main character in their story, and they have agency.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes. And we were not a nonprofit. We were not an organization. We were not even some recognized activists. We were just people there in the community, and we simply wanted to have our normal lives back. We wanted to live in peace as we were before and continue our education. It was as simple as that. But because of the Taliban, we were now living under terrorism. But you know that I'm So grateful that that is something of the past and it has changed for us. I survived. I became an activist through that. But when I do this work today, I think about the 11 year old Malala and I know there are millions like her out there. They're not just girls who are suffering or who are being left behind. These are girls who are determined, they have a voice, they have agency, and they're actually fighting for their rights. They could be doing it in loud ways, they could be doing it out in the public, or they could just simply be doing it at home when they're picking up their books and their pens and trying to learn. And I'm seeing that happening in so many parts of the world, from Nigeria to Pakistan to Brazil, all the way to Afghanistan. Right now I was talking to four of the Afghan girls who we are supporting through a Malala Fund project. And they are learning through a secret school there because the Taliban have banned girls education. And one girl told me that she has converted her home into a school so that she at least feels that she can continue learning at home.

[Trevor Noah]

That's beautiful.

[Malala Yousafzai]

So, you know, this is the resilience, the determination of girls. They do not need any inspirational people. They already know what needs to be done, what future they deserve. We just need to listen to them.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. Ironically, they don't need the inspiration, they just need the support.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Exactly.

[Trevor Noah]

Oftentimes we make the mistake of thinking we're coming in to save the people is. It's like the Superman imagery. Like even in the most recent Superman, I don't know if you. Have you seen it?

[Malala Yousafzai]

I saw it.

[Trevor Noah]

You saw it? Yeah. So, you know, there's that scene where the people like, Superman. Superman. And I had like mixed feelings about it. Cause on the one hand I was like, I mean, I guess they're cheering for Superman, but it made it seem like Superman was their hope. Do you know what I mean? And I was like, I don't know. In real life it feels like they would just be fighting and then Superman should help.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes. You know, I know, I know. You know, it's just like, oh, suddenly it looks like it's a country in the global south, the Middle east or.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, it was very like, where is this place?

[Malala Yousafzai]

I know. Very interesting scene.

[Trevor Noah]

What is this place? This border is weird. Like all of it was actually.

[Malala Yousafzai]

No.

[Trevor Noah]

What are you gonna say?

[Malala Yousafzai]

No, I was just gonna say that it's not about somebody with superpowers saving us. I think it's about solidarity, support that can make a huge difference. I think it's the local people who can lead change. And that's the whole model of the work that I'm doing. Through Malala Fund, we are supporting local education activists. So, you know, we do global advocacy for education and I speak and I have created this global platform. But like, our investments actually go to local organizations in Tanzania, Ethiopia, Pakistan, India, I mean, Brazil and sort of, I think Afghanistan. And these activists are changing policies, they are working on legislations, they are working with local community leaders, they are working directly with gulls and. And a lot of these activists are young girls themselves. So it's like a phenomenal work. When you visit one project, you just see the impact that these activists are creating. It's truly phenomenal. In Tanzania this summer, I went and I saw how one organization, IMSA China Initiative, were addressing the issue of girl safety. Walking to school. Because these girls have to walk for like up to 10 miles. I just could not believe the number. I double checked. I said, are you sure it's 10 miles? They said, yes, that's how long girls have to walk. So they brought in bicycles initiative to help them have a safer and easier and quicker journey to the schools. And it's not just addressing the transport issue, but it's giving them safety as well. It's just incredible work that these activists do. Like, you cannot fix these problems from D.C. or London. It's about us further supporting and strengthening the local activism that is happening. It's through grants, it's through giving them the tools, the technical support and being there as their allies. That's all we need. Because for a lasting, sustainable change, we have to strengthen the local communities.

[Trevor Noah]

Well, I also think we have to see them as people. And that's what I love in what you've done in the book is reminding yourself that you're looking at people. Oftentimes people think that refugees are refugees because they don't want to be in their country, or refugees are refugees because, you know their country sucks or because it's like, no, no, no, no. These are people who want to stay there.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, something's pushing them. They have friends, they have rituals, they have ideas, they have like. There's like a vibe that you don't want to. There's mangoes.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you know what I mean? There's the mangoes.

[Malala Yousafzai]

And think about your life right now. Like, why would you just leave your home?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Who wants to pack as much as they can and go and start a life in a new country? Who wants to walk for days and days, put their lives at risk and somehow be praying that they find safety somewhere. Nobody wants that. Becoming a refugee is the last resort. It's the last and the only option that people have who have to leave their homes because of the challenging circumstances. I think we have to show more empathy because this could happen to any of us due to any circumstances from climate related events to conflicts and other dangers. Thinking, you know, we should think about our neighbors. If somebody is in difficult situation, we should open our doors. And I also shared this story some sometimes that when we became displaced in Swat Valley in Pakistan, it was around 2009. It was not that most people were in these refugee camps. A lot of the people were welcomed by strangers in the neighboring cities. People just opened their doors, they just gave their rooms, their homes, their food, everything. And in our culture that was completely normal because hospitality is a part of our culture. It's part of the Pashtun hospitality. It's a big part of the Pakistani culture. So I hope that, you know, we, we promote these good values everywhere.

[Trevor Noah]

Actually. I hope we do. Especially because we forget how hard it is to begin a life somewhere else. Like, yes, you know, you know, there's, there's the story you tell when, when you're packing your bags, you know, to go to university in Birmingham and this, this whole period of your life, I again, I would have never thought of you like that. You're one of the smartest people I've ever met. You one of the most thoughtful human beings I know. You, you seem to have a broad range of knowledge that just, I mean it spans everything. And then I'm reading these stories of you having self doubt and struggling and what was like 41% in English? I think it was.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah. Like in every subject almost.

[Trevor Noah]

But you see like, like in my head I go like, no, Malala's always been the high achiever. And yet here you are stressed about belonging. And probably, probably the funniest one for me was what you packed in your bag.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

When you knew you were going to be out of your parents watch. It was like jeans even. Okay, this is what I mean.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Cardigans. Yeah, I never want to wear cardigans again. But at the time I was like, I was looking up on Google what is trending. So I searched up Selena Gomez, 2017.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Casual style.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes. Let's do it. Oh, that's amazing.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Like, what is Emma Watson wearing these days? You know, like what are these cool girls wearing that I want to wear as well? I had no idea because before that I had never really worn Jeans and just more casual, western style clothing.

[Trevor Noah]

Right.

[Malala Yousafzai]

And I was thinking about, like, okay, what else is there outside? Shalwar Kameez. That's the only dress my mom wants me to wear because for her, I am representing my whole culture.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Malala Yousafzai]

And my relatives are watching me, so we cannot cause any trouble. And she should not be taking long phone calls because people are just shocked to see me in a different dress. And so I was like, I need to figure out a way. So I was still following some rules around, like, okay, you know, keep the sleeves long. And it's. It's still like, you know, a bit baggy and. But I was like, yeah, I want to assimilate. I want to be among these students and I want to be invisible in some ways that nobody can spot me because my Pakistani clothes are very flashy and bright and colorful and embroidered and all of that. So my goal was that when I go to college, nobody's shocked, like, oh, that's who she is. Or, oh, this is very similar to the person we have seen on tv. I want it to look slightly different as well.

[Trevor Noah]

Malala Undercover. That's what I'm hearing.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Undercover TV show.

[Trevor Noah]

Malala Undercover.

[Malala Yousafzai]

A student. A student. Like, imagine when you are in college and somebody's like, dressed up nicely. No, everybody's just. Everyone looks the same in a hoodie, in a cardigan, in a jumper. They're, you know, they're wearing leggings or what do you call it in America? I think I'm using a lot of British.

[Trevor Noah]

I think leggings are. I think leggings are leggings. I don't wear them, but I think it's leggings.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah, I know. Like the, the sometimes struggle. Like trainers, boots.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, yeah, yeah, that thing. Yeah. It was just.

[Malala Yousafzai]

I don't know. Some people will figure it out. People.

[Trevor Noah]

Let them, Let them Google it the way you had to Google the fashion. Just be like, what. What was, what was Malala wearing? Because. Because this is the thing.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Like, people.

[Trevor Noah]

I mean, the fact that you had to ask people, like, what fish fingers were.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

They are the same thing that we in South Africa. Fish fingers are. It's like a processed type of fish that's then in a. Okay. Okay.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

All right. Do you like fish fingers?

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes. But, you know, for me, it was like, if you think about it, fish fingers. What.

[Trevor Noah]

What did you. Okay, what did you think it was? Because I've. I've actually asked people this question and there's. There's one of two. Some people go, these are the fingers of fish. But fish don't have fingers. So it's, it's referring to a part of the fish that could be a finger or it's pieces of fish that are shaped like fingers. Which one did you think when you heard fish fingers?

[Malala Yousafzai]

The farmer. The first one.

[Trevor Noah]

So you thought it was like a part of a fish?

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah, I was like, there's many species. Who knows? You know, there could be a fish out there.

[Trevor Noah]

It could be like a British fish.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Hello. Exactly. Like, do we know all, all the fish? No, we don't.

[Trevor Noah]

There's the one with the light bulb. So, I mean, there could be one with the fingers.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Exactly.

[Trevor Noah]

I mean, that makes sense.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes. But then, yeah, eventually my mom also found out what clothes I had taken when she. So basically, you know, I went for rowing.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Malala Yousafzai]

And I wore my jeans and a green bomber jacket.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, you went for, we got to talk about that. You went for everything. But let's, yeah, let's talk about the rowing.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah, yeah. And then I came back, I thought it was like a fun day, but I realized I'm never going to do rowing again. Firstly, because you have to get up at 5am yes. And secondly, you should know how to swim. And I couldn't swim, so I was like, okay, good experience, but it's done. But that evening I got a call from my parents saying that, why were you wearing jeans? And like, you have caused so much trouble and there's a whole, like, social media backlash. And I looked at my phone and there was a whole backlash going on against me wearing jeans.

[Trevor Noah]

Who took the picture? Who was the snitch?

[Malala Yousafzai]

Some stranger.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, snitches, man.

[Malala Yousafzai]

It's just always like, I was very careful in university in the beginning, I did not want to go to the clubs and did not want to dance. I was very careful. And, and because I thought, like, there could be a photo that could be taken out of context and people might create a whole controversy, like a cultural one, that, you know, you're not modest enough, you're not Islamic enough, you're not Pashtun or Pakistani enough, whatever identity they want to pick on, and I will cause trouble. So I, I, I skipped things. You know, I was trying to be, you know, an obedient daughter by. In the end, it was just simply jeans that were criticized. And I was like, if people are criticizing my jeans, I think I'm going to change my approach. I'm just going to continue wearing jeans. I am not going to defend it and I'm going to move on because I remember my parents were telling me that, so what are we going to do now?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Should we issue a statement? I was like, statement about what? Like, saying, what, I will never wear jeans again? Or I wore them because I said, there's none of that.

[Trevor Noah]

It must have been isolating as well, because. So here's the. Here's the thing that. That. That's happening in this moment, right as I'm thinking of the story. You're in a world where you've left one world where there are norms and we all have those, and then you move into another world where there are new norms. If you hold on to all of those, the previous ones, you'll never fit in. You will never belong. You'll always be isolated. If you hold onto all of the new ones, then you become isolated, and you don't belong in where you're from. So it's basically this tug and tug of war between where you were and where you are.

[Malala Yousafzai]

And I was also noticing that in the trolling or the backlash I was receiving, there were some people who were saying that, why am I wearing a headscarf? And they were criticizing that I was not fully independent because I was still wearing.

[Trevor Noah]

Now you're stuck between, like, all different worlds.

[Malala Yousafzai]

So for everybody, it was all about, am I representing my culture fully? For some, it was like, well, you have given up to the patriarchal culture, or you have lost your autonomy, and that's why you're dressing that way. And I was like, it's none of that. It's just these things are a part of me. And sometimes I want to wear something, sometimes I don't. I don't even think about who I'm representing. I just want to feel comfortable in what I wear. And who knows? I might change my sense of fashion with time, but it's just a scrutiny that you face and that you are constantly being watched and criticized. And one thing which I told my dad when he was arguing with me was that, why is it always about my clothes? That is a topic of discussion. My brothers immediately switched to jeans and tops. Not a problem. No calls from our relatives.

[Trevor Noah]

I like how you just dragged them into it. Your brothers were safe, and you were like, what about. That is the classic sibling move. What about my brothers?

[Malala Yousafzai]

What about my brothers? It is true. Also, like, I'm really scared of my mom, so it's really hard to argue with her because you will never win. So somehow you have to just come to an agreement where she respects your decision somehow. But you can never say that I was right. You can never say that. But with my dad, I am like, a debater. I argue with him. So I was like, dad, have you ever pointed a finger at your two sons and what they wear? And he stopped for a second and said, yes, I think you are right. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, that's amazing.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah. He is an amazing father, an amazing man, an amazing husband. For me, of course, like, I was so grateful that he was a great father. And he always tells this story that don't ask me what I did, but ask me what I did not do for my daughter. And that is, I did not clip her wings. Amazing father. But I think what made a greater impact or what made, like, an even bigger difference on me was how he was treating my mom, how he was a great husband as well. And that influenced me a lot in how I had, like, very high expectations for the person who was going to be my life partner, even though I had a lot of, like, questions about if I'll find one and do I deserve one. Yeah, is he the right one? But the one thing I was sure of was that I needed that. I know how I should be treated because I saw how my dad was treating my mom. So I think, you know, our dads can also be role models for us for how they can be, like, good husbands and also, like, better parents to the sons in the family.

[Trevor Noah]

No, definitely. I agree with that.

[Malala Yousafzai]

And how they treat others.

[Trevor Noah]

And so, wait, wait, so what about your brothers? Do they have, like, the flip relationship? Because a lot of the time that'll be the case. It's like, the girls will have an easier time with their dad, and then the boys will have an easier time with their mom.

[Malala Yousafzai]

We have a typical family.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, so it is exactly that.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Three siblings. I'm the oldest daughter, and then two younger brothers. The middle one is also following the stereotype. It's just like, such a stereotypical house.

[Trevor Noah]

You're so normal, Malala. So normal.

[Malala Yousafzai]

I know. All the memes and reels you guys see are, like, so relevant. Send them across.

[Trevor Noah]

Don't go anywhere, because we got more. What now? After this.

[Malala Yousafzai]

This Halloween, what's under your costume might just steal a show.

[Trevor Noah]

Wait, is that Glow in the Dark underwear?

[Malala Yousafzai]

Ooh, yeah. Meundies has dropped their spookiest collection yet. Glow in the dark undies and PJs. So comfy. It's scary.

[Trevor Noah]

Tricks, treats and buttery soft briefs.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Exactly. To get cozy and spooky for less, go to meundies.com trickortreat and enter code trickortreat to get 20% off your first order. That's 20% off your first order at MeUndies. Code trickortreat. Meundies. Treat yourself.

[Trevor Noah]

Hey, Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. Now, I don't know if you've heard, but Mint's Premium Wireless is $15 a month. But I'd like to offer one other perk. We have no stores. That means no small talk. Crazy weather we're having. No, it's not. It's just weather. It is an introvert's dream. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Of $45 per three month plan. $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See mintmobile.com.

[Trevor Noah]

As. As we move. As we move through your life. I loved how you. It's like you found joy in like the small things, but like, really not in like a saintly way. Not in a pious way. You know, like your dorm, I think it was in Oxford.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Not like I opened a book and I smelled the pages.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no, no.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Not like that.

[Trevor Noah]

Not like that. Not pretentious.

[Malala Yousafzai]

It was more like I closed the book.

[Trevor Noah]

It's. Exactly.

[Malala Yousafzai]

And you just like, yeah. And I was like, oh, I was smelling what my friends were having. And I was like, what's that? And I was like, oh, what are these new things? And you know, what are these people doing?

[Trevor Noah]

I want to talk to you about your first friend because it seems like one of the most important relationships in your life. And your first friend, I should say, in your new life because you had your friends from home, you've got your school friends, you've got your childhood friends, but you make this new friend, who I feel like we are partially, we should all be grateful to her as well because, like, she just gave you normal, you know.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Which one?

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, I think it was it Cora maybe.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah, the first one, right?

[Trevor Noah]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah, yeah, yes. Uh, so she was my height and when I was walking around on the college open day, just trying to like, figure out who to say hello to, I. I saw her and I, you know, was giving myself this confidence that don't be shy, say hello. It's like, hi, I'm Malala. What's your name? Hi, I'm Cora. I'm, you know, I was like, what are you studying? Studying pp. I was like, same. I'm also studying pp. Like, this is.

[Trevor Noah]

Wait, what is, what is pp?

[Malala Yousafzai]

Philosophy, politics and economics.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, oh, okay, okay. Philosophy, politics and economics. Ok. PPE Got it.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

I didn't. I didn't go to university.

[Malala Yousafzai]

I don't know any of these things.

[Trevor Noah]

Sorry.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Where do you live and why did you decide on this? College. You just start a conversation. And so, you know, we became friends, but I thought she might ask me about my past and. And she might have these, like, you know, strange questions that I'm oftentimes asked. She asked none of that. Never, never in my life. All of the friends I made in university, they never immediately asked about my profile and, like, you know, what they had seen on the news or. And there were some people, other people who were asking me things like, so what was it like meeting this person or that person? And what did you say to Obama? I did not write the minutes. What was it like meeting Emma Watson? They were like, can we meet her? And I said, like, no, just because I have met somebody once doesn't mean I have their phone number and I can call them right now.

[Trevor Noah]

Nobody understands this. I'm so glad you're saying this right now. Nobody. They see you meet someone once.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

They think you're now best friends. They think you have their phone number. They think you can, like, organize something with. Have you had it where people ask you to pass something on?

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, I've got that.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Can you ask them to record a video message for me? It's my birthday.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes. I will send this to Barack Obama. I have his number, and I'll ask him to send them.

[Malala Yousafzai]

It's.

[Trevor Noah]

It's so wild. But what it feels like they were giving you was. It feels like they were allowing you to write your story from scratch in that moment.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah. So the people who became my friends for life were asking me about my assignment, how I was coping with the essay crisis, did I need help with the questions, and what party was happening that evening, who was up to what, who was dating who? And I was quite helpful in giving relationship advice. So they were bringing up all of their problems to me. A lot of them were just problems. And I was like, yeah, this guy is sort of signaling to you very clearly that he does not want to talk to you if he's taking three days to reply, you know.

[Trevor Noah]

So wait, so you were that friend in the crew? You were like the relationship expert friend?

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah, because at the time I thought, you know, I'm just this observer. I can see from the outside. I'm like the coach. They were like, how do you know it? I said, you know, like, coaches are never on the field. You know, they're not the Players, but they know what is happening.

[Trevor Noah]

Right. They're watching the game.

[Malala Yousafzai]

They're watching the game.

[Trevor Noah]

Sometimes you have the best perspective because you're watching the game.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Exactly. So I was fixing all of their problems. I knew who was putting too much effort and who needed to put a bit more effort and who needed to move on from their school boyfriend and realize that they were changing as a person as well. They could not be stuck in the past.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, that feels a little bit like it cut it. Like it. It went. You know, like one of. You know, sometimes you give advice and then it goes close to home.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, like, were you ever experiencing any of that in giving the advice? Realizing there's parts of you that you had from home that you were trying to hold on to, that you now had to let go of, but still hold onto the parts of yourself you wanted to keep?

[Malala Yousafzai]

I didn't understand that question.

[Trevor Noah]

No. So what I mean is, so. So you, in this moment, you're giving this advice to your friends. And what you said was really poignant. You said I was. There's one friend where you noticed that she was holding on to a boyfriend from the past and an idea of herself, and you're like, hey, now it's time for you to move on.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And I wonder if that cut close to home for you because you were also in a position where you had this older version of yourself. You're now in the present and you're facing this uncertain future. Did you also feel like for yourself, you have to figure out what you're willing to let go of and change and move towards?

[Malala Yousafzai]

I think it was a process and it's still happening. There are parts of me that I suddenly realized that I'm letting go of. It's really hard. There are still things that I want to be a part of me forever, but it's really a process. I think in college, for me, the most important thing was just being that jolly student that I once was in Pakistan and to know that this could be my safe space where I feel like nobody's watching me and I could be myself. I don't know what I am. I don't know what I enjoy and what I love, but I just want to allow myself to experience all of these things because nobody's watching. And that was the best time. Climbing the rooftops, skipping assignments, watching the sunrise in the morning, chatting with friends for hours and hours and hours, going for grocery shopping and skipping lectures. I feel like I'm just mentioning all the bad things. Also sometimes doing Your assignments and sometimes working hard. The other thing was asking for help when you need help with your academic performance. Some of us are hesitant because we feel like, are we the only ones who need it? But when I found out about the student support, I realized, okay, you know, this might be the only hope for me now because of how I had struggled with my studies for a very long time in college, that when I went there to that room, I realized that I wasn't the only one there. There were, like, other students walking out of that study room, and I was like, oh, like, so I'm not the only one. And there's, like, some of my friends who are also getting this support. So I changed my approach. I said, okay, I'll always make sure that I ask for help. Yeah, but that's. That's, like a normal college life, right? Sort of.

[Trevor Noah]

And. And that's. Yeah, but that's. That's. I think that's what makes it so powerful is we forget how much all of us in life will always. We'll always yearn for the thing we don't have. Right. And in a perfect world, everyone will have enough of what they need. You know, whether it's good or even friction could be bad. Just have enough of what you need. And so I do like that you're talking about the rooftops and the late nights and the talking to the friends, because it feels like in this moment in time, that's what you needed.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah. And I knew that I would be in college just for three years.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Malala Yousafzai]

I did not know what was happening after that. That I said, this is the only time maybe that I'll have such fun and I could be myself. And, yeah, I was like, all the surveillance cameras are not there. I'm in my safe space. And college was, of course, like, a really exciting and fun time, but it was also a difficult time at this because I had some experiences where it was the first time that I had a panic attack, like, a big panic attack, when I was with some of my friends and was struggling with my assignments. So one friend invited me to hang out with them outside in the gardens, and I joined them. It was still late at night, but I said, this is so normal for me. I'll finish my essay by the morning. And we were just chatting and they were trying. Bong. I had never seen bong.

[Trevor Noah]

A bong?

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah, like a bong. Okay, exactly that. Anyway, I was like, oh, what is this? And they were like, you know, just, like, related to weed, all of that. I was like, oh, yeah, like, that's not that serious. So they were like, you know, you have to try it. So I took one puff. I coughed. It just. I was like, oh, you know, what is this? Then they were like, no, no, just, you know, try one more time. I was like, okay, tried it again. And I felt like I inhaled it and suddenly just went inside. And I don't know where time went, but this time I. Like, I lost. I disconnected from reality. And I felt like I was just, like. I thought I was dead again. I thought I had been attacked. And I thought. Even though I don't remember anything about the incident, I thought it was all happening in repeat and time slowed down. I could not feel my body anymore. And my friend suddenly realized what was happening. So she held me, and I was holding her hand tight. She somehow took me to her room. And I don't know how I survived that night, but I could not sleep because as soon as I would try to close my eyes, I thought this was the end of it. I would not be able to wake up. I thought, like, I was somehow, like, losing life. And it was. It felt like it was again that whole time of the attack where I was in induced coma and I wanted to get up, but I could not. I wanted to feel like I was awake. I want. I needed to know that I was alive, and I just could not. Yeah. But then, you know, the next day, I knew that my body had changed forever. I just felt like I could not be the same person anymore.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Malala Yousafzai]

I became anemic. And then I, you know, called for a friend, and she. She helped me. Then. At the time, I just could not explain to my friends what was happening. I didn't even know if it was normal or not. I did not even know if it was a panic attack or not.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, because it's so jarring.

[Malala Yousafzai]

It was just. I was like, oh, maybe it's just about me because of what I had experienced, that it was not something that other people have also experienced in their own way. But I think it was really the friends who helped me in that difficult time. Something like a sleepover. They just came to my room and they said, you don't have to tell us anything. We're gonna just sleep with you tonight in your room. They brought their mattresses. Yeah. But then eventually, one other friend of mine, she said, you need to see a therapist. That was the first time. It was months later I thought I could.

[Trevor Noah]

And wait, this was the first time you had ever gone to a therapist?

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes, I. So in Birmingham, I Was receiving all of these medical treatments, from, like, facial symmetry to, like, nerve surgery to the hearing implant, and all of these things were happening. And then there was a therapist as well. And she was the only person in that whole hospital that I did not like, oh, wow. I thought she was asking me too many questions. And I just want to, like, recover. I just want to be able to get up.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Why is she asking me about how am I feeling? I said, what's there to talk about feelings right now? That many years later, I did not know if therapy would be helpful at all. And then my friend said, no, like, we. Like. She said, like, she goes to see a therapist. She said. And I was like, but you are. She's like, that's not the point. We can talk about different issues. You don't know who it's affecting. And then I realized that so many people were actually seeing therapists. So that was the first time I saw a therapist many, many years later. And it was because of these panic attacks that I realized I have to go and see a therapist. Because in the end, I felt like I just could not do it. I just could not.

[Trevor Noah]

When you share that, it reminds me of a conversation we actually had on the podcast with a neuroscientist who specializes in trauma. And she taught us something that I'd never known before, which was people who have experienced an acute trauma, part of their PTSD is their cortisol levels change. Like the normal. The baseline. And where most times in society. I think this was discovered around the 1980s with veterans of the Vietnam War, it's that people had sort of depleted their cortisol.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And so something could inflame it, Something could trigger it, Something could bring it back. And the most important thing she said about the trauma and just how we talk about these things is we often assume people should be willing to share their stories when we are willing to hear them. But the real thing that unlocks it is them meeting a person at the right time who says the right thing. Often it's a person who's experienced something similar. You find. You find you share a different bond, a different connection, a different. A different way of speaking about it. Even that's less sanitized than, you know, sometimes, like, a strict therapist patient relationship. So it's amazing that you experienced that on the ground. Did you find that the therapy helped?

[Malala Yousafzai]

The therapy helped a lot. And I fully agree with you. I could not explain it to my parents. I could not explain it to anybody else. I could talk a bit about it. To my friends. And I think they recognized that I needed them around me. And then they also realized that maybe you also need to see a therapist. The therapist was very helpful, to be honest. In the first session, I thought, I'll, like, explain everything and just throw everything at them, and then they'll tell me what's wrong with me and give me some medication. And then.

[Trevor Noah]

This is the calm mechanic in you.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Fine. Yes, exactly. This is the problem. Figure it out and fix the problem. And she was just nodding. I kept talking, and she was just nodding, and I was like, where is this gonna go?

[Trevor Noah]

It is. Yeah. The first therapy session is always a strange one.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah. They keep asking you questions, and you're like, let me explain it back to you. But I was like, what's. You know. And then I had a few more sessions with her. I would, like, write down what I was experiencing, and there were, like, some good times, and I felt normal. And then there were times when, like, you know, my body was sweating and, you know, I. I could hear my heartbeat, and I. I was panicking, and, like, small things could trigger me or. Or just, like, make me somehow feel like. Like I had lost. It's. It's really hard to explain these things, you know?

[Trevor Noah]

No, I. I think I can. I understand it. I think of, like, when I've had to deal in therapy with, you know, my mom, who was shot. So my mom was shot in the head by my stepfather. And even though I wasn't there, I have images, you know, because my brothers told me the stories. And my mom, you know, when I got to the hospital and she was being wheeled into icu, the image that I have of her is still in my head. And one of the hardest things to try and explain to people is. Is how your mind is like a carousel.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

You can't reliably with, you know, retrieve the memory the way you want to. It's spinning. Sometimes it's there. Sometimes it's there. Sometimes. And then sometimes the light hits it in such a way that it really shines.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

At you in the. In the most harsh way. And that's. That's when you'll feel a lot of the time what you're not able to feel. You know, like what you said in the. In the beginning about conversation. Many times we can tell the story, and sometimes I feel like that's when the carousel is far.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And you just tell it, and then sometimes you feel the story, and, you know, it might be triggered by something random. And I've learned that's where, like, therapy, especially good therapy, starts to help you bridge those gaps. Yeah, you start to bridge the gaps between where you were, what you were feeling, who you are and what you're feeling, and. And then merging those Two worlds into one.

[Malala Yousafzai]

100% agree with you. Because I would not have been able to say anything about it a few years ago. And with the help of therapy and just how my life took a different trajectory. It was not just the incident and the panic attack, but it was many other things, like the decision to marry or not, and what my life would look like after I graduate and I graduated in the pandemic. So it was just a lot of things that were happening that were quite overwhelming. And then I was also worried about my grades, if I would actually graduate or not, because, you know, I had been skipping a lot of those essays and assignments. So, like, I was. By the end of the university time, I was quite, quite nervous, overwhelmed. And at the time, you know, I just did not even know if. If I could ever even share it. But when I look back and how I have found my way out and I have learned so much from it, I wanted to write this book, I wanted to share this story with other people so that it could help somebody out there. And it's not just about asking for help, but also being there for people who need help.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. And I think it's important for us to reclaim it as well. One of the things I realized in therapy was a lot of the way we think of therapy now is shaped by the west, you know, and they'll go therapist and therapy. And if you come from South Africa, maybe, I'm assuming Pakistan, wherever you're from in the world, a lot of people will say, oh, that's not in my culture. Oh, we don't do that. We don't do. But as I've taken time to learn about different cultures, I've come to realize every single culture, if you look back, you know, either it was erased during colonial times or it's been forgotten. You know, I remember being in Machu Picchu and learning from historians that they had therapy, just not the way we think of it now. But every culture has elders.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And every culture will tell you about which elders were supposed to do what. And some would even specialize. You know, there'd be. These are the people you're going to talk to just about being a mother, and they'll help you to be a mother, and they'll help you with postpartum depression, whatever it may be. These people will tell you about relationships, this person. And. And now it's become commercialized, unfortunately. Unfortunately, I guess, in some ways. But there's an element of reclaiming it that I think is very important, you know, because. Because then again, I find people can go, oh, you Westernized now? Oh, what is this therapy thing you're talking about? That's not our. And it's like, no, no, it is our people, actually.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Talking to somebody who can shed perspective and wisdom is exactly part of our cultures.

[Malala Yousafzai]

I do wonder if it's just for people who are in the public eye, who face this pressure that they somehow have to pretend that they're living a perfect life and they are not as open about what they actually feel, what's going on in their mind, that somehow we cannot make a mistake. We cannot just let a thought come out or just say something out loud. Because when I think about the culture in our village in Pakistan, to me, like, everybody's just being themselves.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Nobody cares what you think and how offended you'll be. Everybody will tell you how they feel. I have noticed that about my mom as well. She will show it to you, not just say it to you.

[Trevor Noah]

Moms do that.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes. And my dad, you know, out of respect, he's, like, very passionate about expressing what he thinks should be done and what he thinks is right. And I realized that, you know, like, it's not the same for me, at least, that I keep everything to myself. And I do wonder if this is because I was so exposed to media and this outside world watching me. Even when I was 11 years old and I was blogging, I was becoming an activist, I was seen as this, like, kid in school who is giving speeches, and she's a bit smart. So, like, I felt like everybody was watching me, even though there was, like, no camera or nothing. And that's how I have lived my whole life, that sometimes I feel that, you know, that I. I wish there was just less scrutiny and less surveillance and. And that we allowed ourselves to express our opinions, our thoughts more openly.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Because as you were saying, like, that's how therapy should technically be. Because you say something in front of your friend and your friend is like. Or, like, you know, it didn't sound right. Let me explain it to you. Or like. But have you thought about this thing or. I fully agree with you. It never occurred to me. Wow, I'm hearing this for the first time. It could work either ways. And. And I wonder if it's affecting more people out there. I think it is because of social media, because of how these things work now that Everybody has a TikTok and Instagram podcast.

[Trevor Noah]

No, I genuinely think it is. I think it is. I think it's a combination of two things, and maybe there's more that I'm missing, but the more I've thought about it, you know, and to your point, sharing a spotlight.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

I've. I've seen every variation of it. You know, people having a spotless image of you. People having a terrible image of you.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

I think it's two things that people are experiencing on multiple levels, depending on, you know, how prominent you are. The one is we have more access to each other than we've ever had.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

In the history of the world, but at the same time, we have less context than we've ever had for each other in the world. And I think that's a terrible combination of things. You know, I. I think to myself, one of the. One of the natural beautiful occurrences in. In the world is how accents and languages evolve. And I think that's. I speak multiple languages. I love accents. The reason I love them is because they tell you a story. They tell you how people moved. And it's amazing how you can track an accent that starts in one part of the world. And if you move far enough and slowly enough, you see that the accent is still exactly the same, which always blew my mind. It's like, oh, no, an English accent is a Jamaican accent, is an Indian accent. Like, it's depending on which way the journey went. It's just the gradual change that started to soften it and it provides it context. And I think without context, we lose everything.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Like your friends hold your context. So a friend can say, that's not you.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, that's not you at your status. That's not you at your angriest. That's not you with, you know, whatever it is, that's not you in your fullest. And a friend can give you grace. A friend can give you compassion. A friend can. It's because the person trusts you in your hole. And so they notice the anomalies which we all have.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Judge you. They don't judge you.

[Trevor Noah]

That's the big thing.

[Malala Yousafzai]

And I love that they're not canceling you.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, no, no, no. But. But I think it's. But I think it's because. To be fair to society.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

It's because they don't have any context.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

I've. I've literally had people come up to me. I wonder if you've had the same experience. I've had people come up to me and they've said, often at a live event, you know, one man, I was on the road, I was in a place called Springfield, Missouri, and everyone told me, oh, that's Trump Country. That's all red. I wonder what it's gonna be like. And I did a show there, had an amazing time. Really amazing time. And after the show, I was in the town and I was walking around, and this man came up to me and he said, I was sitting, like, at a little diner in a booth, and he came up and he's like, hey, can I just let you know, my son brought me to your show, and I didn't like you. I didn't like you, but I had a good time at your show, and you're a lot different than I thought you were. Thank you. And I said, thank you very much. I said, if I may ask, why didn't you like me? He says, well, I saw a few clips of yours on Facebook, and I didn't like what I saw. But, you know, when I came to your show, I was like, wow. You know, I agree with that, and I like that. And maybe I don't think that. But he saw more because I was able to be there with him in person like this. You know, it's bridging this gap. I think that's important.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah. I think people on social media are oftentimes talking about a conversation about you.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Malala Yousafzai]

You are never there.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Malala Yousafzai]

They're like, we think this person said this. And we. Sure. We are so sure that this person meant this.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Malala Yousafzai]

We're not going to look at the context.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Any of that.

[Trevor Noah]

It's a complete.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Complete flattening.

[Malala Yousafzai]

That has happened to me a few times.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, it's. I mean, you know, I think. I think it's changing, though, to be honest with you. So I think I give most of the credits to Gen Z and then I guess Alpha in that, because they grew up in such surveillance, to borrow your word, they grew up in a world where they were being watched. If you look at the difference in their social media versus Millennial social. Millennial social media was all about the filter. Make it look good and make it this and make it perfect. And then you look at what Gen Z and Alpha did. They went, no, it's vibes. I'm gonna take a blurry picture. I'm gonna take a messy shot. I'm gonna write whatever I'm feeling, then I'll delete it. You know what? This isn't my tombstone. This isn't how I want to be perceived forever. And even that shift, I think, has brought a little. Just a little more parity or a little more balance, I think, into the way we see it. I think it'll always be there, but we're moving, you know, we'll see. If they say that about you, you must call me. And then I'll fight for you. I like fighting people online, so.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Oh, I love that.

[Trevor Noah]

I really do. You know why? Because I also realized at some point, most of it is not real.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

That was the hardest thing.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Is most of it is not real. Most of the hate that people are experiencing of each other is not real.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And that's why, even when I've met politicians, I'll often say to them, more in the U.S. you know, than anywhere else where I've gotten to meet them as I go. I wish you would spend more time in public getting along.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Forget the law.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

But I wish your constituents knew that you have lunches together, that you have dinners together, that you go to each other's birthday parties, that you.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Because they don't treat each other the way you do.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes. You know, so true.

[Trevor Noah]

And so if you could show them that side of your lives, maybe they would be able to see that side of their lives with each other. And then. Not that it would. It doesn't become like utopia, but, you know.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah. In my interactions with real people, I have, like, rarely come across an experience where I felt a person was disrespectful or they were sounding like a troll.

[Trevor Noah]

How trolls are you?

[Malala Yousafzai]

It doesn't happen. So from the very start, I knew that. I cannot assume that what I see on social media is reflective of the world out there. For whatever reason, I'm like, it could be the same person, but I know they won't treat me the same way if they meet me in person. That's true. So I think, you know, we need to. I feel like this connection more in the real world is important. Meeting each other, seeing each other, because it makes us feel more human. And it's not like these fixed objects that we see on social media, and we have such a fixed opinion about them. And, yeah, the world of social media is crazy. Just six months before my marriage, I had an interview with British Vogue, which was released, because, you know, I was, like, on the COVID and everything, and the journalist had asked me many questions about what I was thinking ahead about life. And at that time, I had no plans, and I was still in Covid time. A recent graduate Figuring out if I wanted to get married or not, because I had like a billion questions about marriage as an institution and all of that. So in the interview, somehow I said, oh, like, why do we have to get married? Why can't it just be like a partnership and just two people living together? Why is this like this complicated concept of marriage? And when that piece came out, there was this huge backlash that people eventually were saying that Malala is against marriage. And then they said Nikah. So Nikah is the religious Islamic ceremony.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, wow.

[Malala Yousafzai]

They made it so specific that Malala is advocating against this religious practice, which is like so important for, you know, for us, for Muslims or Pakistanis. And like, when you look back at the whole interview, you don't see it. Like, it's not that I have said that I'm against it. I think nobody should be doing that. There's none of that. But nobody was. The people who were making that claim were not going to the article.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no, they don't.

[Malala Yousafzai]

And you realize that, you know, these are narratives that, you know, one person ignites it, they create that spark and then everybody else is like, this is a wonderful opportunity. We had been looking for it. Like, let's, let's distribute it, let's share it. So there is a bit of that danger with social media because by the time you explain yourself, oh, no, it's gone, it's too late, it's gone. So I remember again, like, my mom and dad were disappointed with me.

[Trevor Noah]

First the genes and now this, now this.

[Malala Yousafzai]

They're like, can you just. And my mom actually said, my mom was like, I wish you had never spoken. And it broke my heart. I was really sad. But it also made me angry that why do I have to somehow sound all perfect? If I repeat my lines, I might clarify it a bit.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Malala Yousafzai]

But it, you know, like, why, why can't I be a normal 23 year old who is just confused about marriage? Why can't I question it? I can't just pretend like I have figured out everything and I have all the answers. And if I'm suddenly put on the spot and asked about marriage, of course I'm going to say marriage. What? Who's getting married? Me. Why do you have to get married? That's exactly how I felt. I thought she, like, caught me red handed.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, she like threw a curveball at you. Yeah.

[Malala Yousafzai]

And that I don't. But, you know, after that interview was out, I was still thinking about ASR, who's now my husband. And I was like, there were Many moments in which I realized how he was the right person and the perfect person for me. That's beautiful, because in that moment, he was so calm. He actually explained it to my parents why they should not push me to release a statement in defense. He talked to them.

[Trevor Noah]

Wow.

[Malala Yousafzai]

And when we spent some time together, I realized that we actually have the best time. All these questions I have about marriage and, you know, this being an institution, historically, that has oppressed women, and it's patriarchal, and, you know, women make more compromises when they make this decision. Like, how much do they lose on the way in terms of their career and how maternity affects them? Or, like, you know, is this guy gonna turn out to be a good guy after we get married? Or. And I spent some time with him, and I knew he was the right one. But when I think back, I do not regret it for a second that I had a billion questions about marriage. And I took my time and I asked him all those silly questions as much as I could, because this is a reality that women and girls go through. And I had, like, everything. I. I had a platform, a career. I could make money. I. You know, what was I. Why was I so scared of it? I was an advocate for girls rights. Like, I knew my rights, I knew.

[Trevor Noah]

Women'S rights, and now here you were.

[Malala Yousafzai]

And somehow I was scared. I felt like I was gonna lose something.

[Trevor Noah]

Wow.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Lose something. And. And, you know, when I got married, I realized, wow, like, it feels quite normal. Like, I'm still the same person. Nothing has changed, or, like, you know, something. Like, I'm, like, I'm watching you. You know, you are my husband, but we're just friends. I still joke with him. I'm like, you know, it's just, we're husband and wife to the world outside, but we're just friends. Just kidding.

[Trevor Noah]

No, but I love.

[Malala Yousafzai]

We are. We are best friends.

[Trevor Noah]

We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Hey, everybody, Ted Danson here to tell.

[Trevor Noah]

You about my podcast with my longtime.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Friend and sometimes co host, Woody Harrelson. It's called Where Everybody Knows your Name. And we're back for another season. I'm so excited to be joined this.

[Trevor Noah]

Season by friends like John Mulaney, David.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Spade, Sarah Silverman, Ed Helms, and many more.

[Trevor Noah]

You don't want to miss it. Listen to Everybody Knows yous Name with.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Me, Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson. Sometimes, wherever you get your podcasts, if.

[Trevor Noah]

You'Re looking to help your child catch.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Up, stay sharp or get a head start this school year without the stress. IXL is the answer. Its interactive lessons keep kids engaged with content tailored to their level pace and learning style. IXL is the award winning platform, proven to boost grades in math, science, social studies and more. One subscription works for all your kids, saving your family time and money. Visit ixl.com 20 to get the most.

[Trevor Noah]

Effective learning program out there with an exclusive 20% off. So, so this is what I, What I enjoy is. You know, you even talk about this and, and it's, it's. It's beautiful to read. Is the, it's like. It's like the nitty gritty.

[Malala Yousafzai]

It's.

[Trevor Noah]

It's the non airbrushed. It's the, it's the human. You know, it's just the human that we all are. No one, I think most people wouldn't think of like Malala having a crush. Most people wouldn't think of Malala being insecure or wondering about what love is or what love isn't. Like people wouldn't have these things. I've experienced it like in different ways because everyone paints a picture of you when they paint a picture. I remember telling someone once, oh, yeah, And I. I didn't have anyone who would go to prom with me in. In South Africa. It was the matric dance. People were like, oh, you're lying. You just say. I was like, oh, you have an image of me in this moment in time. You weren't with me for any of the insecurities or the journeys that I've been on.

[Malala Yousafzai]

I had a question for you.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, yeah? Shoot.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Did you ever speak to Zaheera again?

[Trevor Noah]

Like often?

[Malala Yousafzai]

Recently? Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

No.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Like never?

[Trevor Noah]

No.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Did it ever feel like you should or.

[Trevor Noah]

So. It's a tough one.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Do you know where she is?

[Trevor Noah]

No, I don't. I don't. I remember when I was towards the end of high school, a friend said that her family had moved to the US and something. You know, this is, this is a. This is a complicated thing that I, I love grappling with in life.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Is that. Is. There's a difference between the feeling and the reality. Right. Oftentimes in life, we are chasing the feeling of something. And because the story has been told to us, we assume that that feeling exists within a reality. So just to give people perspective, I mean, you know, it. But in high school, I was an absolute proud loser. I was a nerd. I spent more time with my computer and my video games than with people. But I, I got along and I got, you know, there were people that I'VE made friends with in school. But I, and, and I was very lucky that, you know, later on, like Brian became like my best friend and I, But I had a very small, tight knit group and one of the people who was really nice to me was a girl named Zahira. Right. So Zahira and her friend Joanna. Right. They were really, really nice to me. And Zahira was one of the most beautiful, beautiful girls in school.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Like I, I read it in your books.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, I just, I mean, it was true. She just. But what made her more beautiful was her kindness, her vibe. She was nice. She. Some people, male and female, only smiled at the popular kids. You know, she smiled at everyone. She, she got along with everyone. She. It. And, and I remember, and she talked to me and I remember being like, wow, this is the most amazing thing. And I always thought to myself, I would love to ask her to be my girlfriend. Which was a crazy, I'd never had a girlfriend. It was, it was this terrifying thought. And then as I say in the book, I never did. And then one day she just didn't come to school. Her parents had left the country and that was it. There's no social media in that way. And it was, you know, now the thing that I hold on to is a. The lesson as I shared, it was one of the moments in life where I went, try to avoid regrets.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, regret is an unanswered question. You'll always wonder, what if, what if, what if? Rejection is a bruise, you know, you'll feel it. We. I'm not going to lie to anybody. You'll feel rejection. You know, there's nothing worse than the unrequited love or the friend that didn't, you know, whatever it is. But the regret is the what if? It's the, it's the infinite what if. So that's the first thing. The second thing I hold on to is the idea. And that is like, why would I contact the person? I would contact them because I have an idea in my head that that person holds this piece of a happiness that maybe I will attain if I find them again.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

But I then realize, even in this moment in time, I have the happiness because I'm experiencing it. I just think it's going to be there. And so the analogy I use with my friends often is I go, why is it that all boys grow up wanting a Ferrari but they've never been in one? Like genuinely, you know, and not to, not to reduce a person to a vehicle, but I just think of like the images. And it's a simple one. Boys grow into men who dream of a Ferrari. Why? You've never been in one, you've never owned one, you've never. I want a Ferrari. I want a Ferrari. And it's like, why? Oh, because then I'll. Because then I'll watch. And over time, if you're lucky enough, either you do experience it and it is, or it isn't what you thought. But even without it, you can realize you've never been in it. And yet you truly believe that it's gonna make you happy. And if you envision yourself in it, you even become happy, then it's not the Ferrari you want, it's the idea of the Ferrari that makes you happy. And if you can try pursue that feeling, you can find it in your friends putting their mattresses in your dorm room anywhere. You truly. And I know sometimes people are like, oh, that sounds like. But I. I won't lie to, to your, to your stories of like running on rooftops and going shopping and late night conversations. That's the thing that I think we need to hold on to more is the idea and the understanding of the feeling that's behind the idea, not just the idea itself. So, no, I. I never, I never reached out. I never did. But I'm glad. I'm glad. I'm glad you, you know, I'm glad you didn't regret like you pursued love, you. You stepped out.

[Malala Yousafzai]

But, you know, ASR was not my first love. I had a crush before ASR and this was before I had met ASR so, you know, just to disclose.

[Trevor Noah]

No. No clipping. Internet.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Exactly.

[Trevor Noah]

Don't worry, we'll.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Exactly.

[Trevor Noah]

It's in full. No clipping.

[Malala Yousafzai]

But it was a similar thing that this guy Tariq was this mysterious boy in college.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Malala Yousafzai]

And there was not much that I knew about him, but I knew he was cool because there were secrets about him and he was that guy who gets in trouble and somehow I thought maybe I could fix him.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh.

[Malala Yousafzai]

So I would ask him questions like, why are you. Why are you upset? Then he would complain about the essays and the tutors. And I said, why is nobody helping you? I think we have to talk to your tutors. Let me bring this up to the principal. And he said, nah, man, it's just, you know, it's just bad boy Tariq, bad boy. And yeah, like, he would just come to my room and eat bananas and any snacks and then leave. But for me, I knew that I could not be with Tariq. Tariq Was just an idea. It was that feeling and was never even gonna become real. And I did not even know why I was chasing him because at the time I didn't want to get married or I didn't want to have a boyfriend or any of that.

[Trevor Noah]

Like, was that because what just culture.

[Malala Yousafzai]

I was still new in college.

[Trevor Noah]

Right? Right.

[Malala Yousafzai]

It was so overwhelming. Like I was still fighting for my right to wear jeans. I was not going to think about a guy. And with Tariq, I knew I was like this. But there's something about him that I'm somehow chasing him. And in the end he disappears from college because, you know, he's that boy who gets in trouble and you know, he's that bad boy somehow. But I just, I just love that I had that experience where I felt like I was a part of something. I did not really cross the line, but I was in it. I don't know, somehow. It just, it just was my first love experience that was truly one sided.

[Trevor Noah]

We all need those. I feel like at some point it.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Was just this idea. I was trying to like feel it. And yeah, it was just from, from a distance. It was all in imagination. And sometimes I feel like it was a dream. And then I meet ASR who, you know, I'm like, wow, he's also handsome. Let's consider him.

[Trevor Noah]

That's beautiful. You know. You know what? I love that you say it's like a dream and it's an imagination, but I think that's what it is. It's a powerful imagination. And the older I've gotten, the more I've realized it's an imagination that we have of ourselves. Yeah, that's one of the most complicated things to learn about like love in those moments or the idea that we have of the love is that that person is either seeing us or allowing us to feel seen in a way that we haven't before or in a way that we feel good or feel comfortable and feel. And there's something beautiful in that. Like, do you know what I mean? It's just like you imagining your. Because again, to your point, it hasn't happened.

[Malala Yousafzai]

I wanted to be the main character.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Malala Yousafzai]

I thought it was a movie and I had watched so many Indian movies and TV dramas that for me was that moment that there's this mysterious guy, it's a typical story who's not looking at you, but he is the one because he's not looking at you. He's so amazing and he's good looking and all of that. But you know, I Don't want to use rude words, but, you know, A S S H O L E. Oh, asshole.

[Trevor Noah]

I'll say it for you.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Okay, thank you.

[Trevor Noah]

I can be a rude word sayer. Yeah.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah, sort of like that.

[Trevor Noah]

Whenever you need to say that word, just call me and I'll pop up there and be like, asshole.

[Malala Yousafzai]

So, you know, at the time, I didn't. I did not know if I would be loved by somebody. I could not love myself either. But that was just the first time that I was feeling something where I thought maybe in imagination there are no rules. And it's okay for me to have a crush on this guy and to be curious about his life and sort of follow him around, check on him, does he need any help. Get him biscuits and tea and whatever he needs. But he did not want my help. To be honest, other than the food, he was a boy.

[Trevor Noah]

Tarek just wanted bananas.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Just always in trouble. And then he disappeared.

[Trevor Noah]

When you. When you thought of yourself in love or being loved, was it ever difficult to bridge the gap between who you saw yourself as and who everyone else thought you were? Like, how do you love a saint?

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah, you know what I mean? I think I wanted that person to not see me as a saint. I wanted that person to see me for who I was. And ASR from the start, never received me as the Malala or as the girl he had heard about somewhere. He never even asked me a single question. I think even to this day, like, we never talk about what happened and what was life like in Swat Valley. And, you know, he read my book, I think, around the wedding time or after that, just to catch up on the story, because I feel like he thought my dad might ask him questions. So for him, it just didn't matter. For him, he saw the Malala that was in front of him, and she was growing, she was learning. She was still asking questions and she was still figuring things out. Like, he accepted me for who I was and who I was becoming. That was really life changing. Because even now, I don't feel like I have to be this, like, fixed version of me. We're so open with each other, we giggle, we laugh. I can be so silly with him. I'm truly like myself. I. I don't think twice when I say something in front of him. That's the best thing. It's not about like, oh, am I hurting your feelings or something? And. And you're not hurting your feelings. Like, somehow you just, you know, how to look after each other, how to keep each other happy. And. And even, like. And because he's just, like, so amazing that sometimes, even if I am, like, upset about something, it's just so minute. But for him, he cannot see me upset. So he will take it very seriously. He'll just, like, stop everything. And he said, let's resolve the issue. And I'm like, no, it's fine. It's not a big deal. No, nothing is going on. No, I'm fine. We'll, you know, just talk about it later. He's like, no, tell me what happened. And I think one time I told him that when he drinks his, like, protein shake.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Malala Yousafzai]

He sort of leaves the glass, and then I pick it up and I rinse it. So I was like, this is a big deal. Why do I have to rinse your glass? And I was like, patriarchy, man. All of these things. I was like, I'm advocating for girls rights. I do not want to be an advocate at home. You know, imagine, like, you're fighting a battle, and then suddenly you're like, I have to fix the guy at home, too. So I was like, no, nothing. And then I was like, well, you know, my mom was here as well, and, like, I just felt so much pressure. And I can imagine. It's not that it was just us two. I felt like people were watching us as well, and I thought they were judging us, like. And he was like, oh, you know, it's like we split work. Like, you know, you do the dishwasher, but I do the. The clothes washing and I do the laundry and all of that. And. And I was like, yeah, you kind of do a lot more things than me. That's true. But there's something about the dishes. And, like, it's just like, my mom also, like, noticed it. And then he said, like, yeah, sort of like, you're right. Yeah, of course I should, like, you know, pick up the dishes or whatever I use and put them in the dishwasher. Like, that point onwards. It's been like, two, three years now. I have never seen him, like, leave his oh, wow class. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

I mean, then the human rights speech worked.

[Malala Yousafzai]

You know, it's just me being upset. That work just making, you know, it a big drama.

[Trevor Noah]

A little bit of drama.

[Malala Yousafzai]

I wish I could do the same outside, like, 122 million girls out of school. What are you guys doing? I'm not going to talk to you.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, just.

[Malala Yousafzai]

This is what I want to tell leaders. Why would you not invest in girls education? Why would you not put money in there when, you know the Benefits are exponential. It will improve economies. It will reduce poverty. It will help tackle climate change. It will help create a better, safer future. Why is it that 120 million girls do not have the right to be in school?

[Trevor Noah]

What do they say to you when you ask them these questions?

[Malala Yousafzai]

I think it's the same old thing. Like in the last five years we have committed more than this many million dollars and we are committed more than ever.

[Trevor Noah]

Pledging and committing. Yeah.

[Malala Yousafzai]

And we know that there's a huge gap in funding for education, climate related events. These wars and conflicts are worsening it. Afghanistan is the most extreme case because when the Taliban took power four years ago, they immediately announced a ban on girls education. Girls are not allowed to be in school beyond grade six. Women cannot be in universities. Women cannot work, they cannot be in the parliament. They cannot play sports. They cannot go see a doctor without a male chaperone, they cannot visit a park. They cannot even speak loudly when they're inside their houses. That's how much the Taliban are controlling the lives of women, from their voices to how they're dressed, to their movement. It is like the most systemic, oppressive regime that the women are living under right now. And it's painful to see it happening every day. Very painful to see it. And the Afghan women are like, living it. And. But in this time, when I think about the bravery and the courage of the Afghan women who are standing up to the Taliban and they want to like reclaim the old lives they had, it's not that these, you know, women were sort of used to this culture. No, they had fought really hard for their right to be working, to be in school. And the Taliban just suddenly took all of that away from them. Afghan activists are calling it a gender apartheid, that this is systemic oppression in which women are oppressed simply based on their gender. If they were born a boy, they would have a different life. But they are born a girl. They cannot be in school, they cannot imagine to work. And it's the Taliban who are determining their lives and restricting them to the four walls of their houses. They're erasing women from public life in any political participation. They're literally erasing women. And, and they're punishing women for disobeying any of these rules. That's the most important thing. Because people often think that gender discrimination is a problem in a lot of countries and in, in the global south or that, you know, these things happen. It's culture, it's this and that. And I'm not saying that that is not a reality of Course, that is. And things weren't perfect for women and girls in Afghanistan before the Taliban. But what's different under the Taliban regime is that it is systemic. The people who are supposed to protect civilians, the people who are supposed to give justice to women and girls, are the ones who are the perpetrators. They are committing the crimes. It is systemic crime where they are abusing their power. And in cases like these, where do the women go because they can't seek justice from the Taliban? The Taliban police are the ones who are arresting them for simply daring to learn or go to a secret school or protest or simply go to work. So many of these households are run by women. Women are the. Are the breadwinners, and the Taliban just do not allow them to work. So it's a very difficult place for women right now. But I'm always inspired by their resilience and their courage and how they're fighting back. The activists who are in exile are doing advocacy globally, from codifying gender apartheid to bringing women's issues to the stage, to also pushing for the inclusion of women and girls on the agenda where any peace talks and dialogues are happening, to also women being present in those rooms where decisions about the future of Afghanistan are made. And at the same time, they are, like, running projects in the country as well. So at Malala Fund, we are supporting both. We are giving grants to organizations who are putting pressure on leaders to hold the Taliban accountable. And at the same time, we're also giving grants to organizations who are providing alternative education, from radios to television to underground schools, to, like, offline and online platforms. We're using everything that we can to keep girls learning, as many as we can.

[Trevor Noah]

I can't help but wonder, as you're saying that, you know, oftentimes when we are told these stories, if you live in a country like the United States or the UK or, you know, any of the more powerful nations, oftentimes it sounds like people are saying, well, invade. Or, you know, it swings between two worlds. Either fully come in with a militarized force or do nothing. It's a binary that. That reduces the solution down to only two when it feels like it could be more nuanced. So when. When you. When you're looking at the situation, you know, you're talking to activists and you're talking to advocates. What are some of the things you think world leaders could actually be doing beyond going in and then just, you know, creating more war and more turmoil?

[Malala Yousafzai]

I think for me, it was never about whether the military should have stayed there forever or for me, it was about how they left.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, definitely.

[Malala Yousafzai]

And in what state they left the country. They did not give power to the local people. I think the US just suddenly brought the Taliban out of nowhere to these peace talks, like so called peace talks. The Taliban had little control and suddenly the US Was like, we're going to leave and we're going to bring you back so we can negotiate with you. Like, negotiate on what? And Afghan women and girls were not included. Their issues were not really brought up. They were pushed aside. And what's happening in Afghanistan is because of what the Taliban are doing right now. But I think the countries who let that happen and who are still silent and looking away are also complicit. They should also be held accountable. And that's why I think that campaigns like codifying gender apartheid in the Crime against Humanity treaty or just like really questioning our international law is important. Because when such horrible things happen, I think about the girls. I'm like, is anybody thinking about them? Why are the Taliban getting away with it? Four years and somehow we are still saying if and but and this and that. And leaders are sometimes just issuing a statement saying, yes, Afghan women deserve a better future and that's it. They don't do anything. They're not putting any pressure on the Taliban. They are. Some countries are even normalizing their relationships with Afghanistan.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, wow, I didn't know that.

[Malala Yousafzai]

And the women are still. Even in the last UN talks between the Taliban and the UN representatives in Doha, Afghan women and girls were excluded. That was 2024. I had a call with the UN Secretary General and I highlighted this. That we cannot decide the future of Afghan women when they're not present in the rooms. They are half of the population. Anything that's decided about the future of Afghanistan is also about their futures. So they must be included. I think it's, you know, it's about solidarity and support for each other. We need to share more empathy. We need to share their stories. And sometimes we feel helpless. You know, what can we do? I think there are options out there from supporting the Afghan activists to their organizations or asking your representatives and your governments about what they're doing. And. But sometimes it's just simply sharing their stories, simply paying attention to like, or just stopping for a second and learning about what's happening in Afghanistan is a form of solidarity.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, I think it's, it's providing a complexity and a human side to a statistic, you know, so that it's not just a statistic. If, if anything, that's. That's one of the lessons that I learned from reading, you know, your book now is it reminded me that we all have an obligation in a beautiful way, by the way, you know, not as like a task, but in a beautiful way to think of ourselves as the people we're trying to help.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, and it actually, it actually made me wonder if your journey, you know, the Malala who goes to Birmingham, the Malala who then goes and studies in Oxford, the Malala who starts an organization, the Malala who falls in love, who gets married as. As you got to explore and. And you know, flesh out these parts of yourselves as fully as you have. Do you think that's reinvigorated your fight? Do you think that's made you want to go back even more? Because it shows you how much more there is to fight for?

[Malala Yousafzai]

I think I started my journey as an activist, as an idealist, and that's partly because I was very young when I became an activist. Now I'm 28 and I have experienced so much more than when I was 11 or 15. And that visionary, optimistic child Malala is still in there. But I feel there's a bit more cynical and skeptical Malala who has also seen rejections. Rejections. We always remember who has seen setbacks. How the whole country of Afghanistan can be a place for women and girls where they do not have any rights. They suddenly become second class citizens.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Malala Yousafzai]

To seeing how still we are so behind on creating a world where every child can be in school and can have the opportunity to learn.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Like it's, it should be a right. Nobody should be in any way limited in learning. It's the simple right to like be able to read a book.

[Trevor Noah]

It's crazy that it's even considered a luxury in many ways.

[Malala Yousafzai]

You know, just if you think about it, and I know with technology things are changing and it's a different story in like developed countries. But I'm like, whatever you want to call it online or homeschooling or whatever you want to call it, that debate is separate. But it's just this right to learn and to see how many millions of girls and children are denied this right is shocking. Like we're still living in this time. We are making progress on so many things and still we are leaving like this generation of children without an education. So I think that's like, it's the foundation. It's the foundation of who we become and what opportunities we can have in life. It's a step towards progress, is a step towards more prosperous economy, and there's so many benefits. And for me, it's. You know, it's like the reality of the world we're living in right now that with an education, I believe girls can make decisions about their life and they can choose their own future. That's the most important thing.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Malala Yousafzai]

We cannot let them be in a place where their future is decided by somebody else.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. Let them be the main characters in.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Their stories or their culture or who, you know, whoever it is, elders or whatever that is. It's them making those choices for themselves without pressure, without judgment, that they can be free souls.

[Trevor Noah]

I really love that, and I appreciate you sharing that. I think that was my favorite takeaway, and it sort of ties everything up perfectly. When I read the book, some of the main themes I thought of was one we should never take for granted the power and value of belonging for ourselves in our lives, for the communities we're in, for the societies we build, you know, for refugees, for immigrants. Like, nobody doesn't want to be where they're from. Nobody doesn't want to be with their people.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And if we remember that, we then try and make sure that their worlds are better so that they can be in their world instead of fighting with them coming into our world. And then the other one that. That I really enjoyed you sharing is that it's always a work in progress. You know, it's like we. We find you at this moment in time as Malala, and we'll find you at another moment in time in the future, and we'll find. But in the same way you as a person are, you know, a work in progress, all of these issues. Life is a work in progress. We're still trying to figure it out. We're still trying to, you know, we'll see. Do we want to wear jeans or do we not want to wear jeans? You know, we'll figure it out as we go. So. Yeah. I appreciate you sharing it. Thank you.

[Malala Yousafzai]

For me, I see a sense of belonging in a very different way than I used to. I thought it was always about the place where you were born, where you spent your childhood. And now with time, I'm realizing that I have actually spent a lot more time outside Pakistan than I have inside Pakistan. But that strong bond and connection with the country where I was born can never be taken away. Even if I spend the rest of my life somewhere on Mars, it can never be taken away. I feel like a part of me belongs to that soil, to that air. Like I'm there. Like my soul is Somehow there it is.

[Trevor Noah]

But it is. I genuinely believe that it is.

[Malala Yousafzai]

And when I visited my parents village, Shang La, where we had built a school, and I wanted to visit that school and just see the girls, like the first class that were graduating. But I also saw the graveyard of my grandmother Abay, who was so dear to me, and I just could not imagine losing her because I thought she was somebody who was praying for me all the time. I felt safe when she was there. And when she was gone, I immediately felt that something had gone missing in my life.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Malala Yousafzai]

But when I visited her grave, I realized that she was there. She was there in. In the air, and, and, and I just felt her presence and I felt her prayers. But now, like I'm traveling, I am spending time with my friends, with my husband, and I don't find that home and belonging just in the places, in the locations where I am, but it's among the people, it's the idea, it's with my siblings, that little fight that we have, the argument. It's with my mom and dad, it's with my husband when we are just binge watching a TV show. It's everywhere where I meet incredible girls, activists who give me hope, who inspire me, and whose work is really changing the world for people out there. I always have this sense of relief and happiness in my heart when I see the work of other people. And I know they're doing so much more that we don't see, that we don't hear about, but they are changing the lives of people, they're changing their communities. And I feel safer and I feel happier when I see that world. And I think we should always hold hands together and be in solidarity with each other. And for me, ideally, this whole globe should be our home. That we are more friendly and more. We're nicer to each other, kinder to each other.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. As my brother says it the best way. He says whenever you. Whenever you feel skeptical and you feel like the whole world is going the wrong way, which it can in many times. He always says, go outside and touch grass. Yeah, Just go outside, touch grass. You'll see somebody else on that cross, and that might be the beginning of a new friendship.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And so I appreciate you for that. Thank you. Thank you for joining me here.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Thank you so much.

[Trevor Noah]

Thank you for inspiring me. But also reminding me that you're not only inspirational, I like that. I like to know that you're flawed because it makes me feel a little better about myself.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Oh, you're welcome.

[Trevor Noah]

Thank you so much. Milana.

[Malala Yousafzai]

Thank you.

[Trevor Noah]

This is great. What now with Trevor Noah is produced by Day Zero Productions in partnership with SiriusXM. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin and Jess Hackle. Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiou. Music mixing and mastering by Hannis Brown. Random other stuff by Ryan Hardruth. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of what Now. Adam Pally here and I'm John Gabris. We're a couple actors and best friends who you may know as the host of the TV show 101 Places to Party before you die. Now we're bringing you a comedic look at health and wellness with our new show, Staying Alive. We'll have guests like our friend actor Jerry O', Connell, ketamine therapist Dr. Stephen Radowitz, Paul Scheer, Ego Wodom, Gillian Bell, Dr. Dolittle staying alive with John Gabrison. Adam Pali is out right now. Get them a week early and ad free with SiriusXM podcast plus on Apple Podcasts. Imagine relying on a dozen different software programs to run your business, none of which are connected, and each one more expensive and more cost complicated than the last. It can be pretty stressful. Now imagine Odoo. Odoo has all the programs you'll ever need and are all connected on one platform. Doesn't Odoo sound amazing? Let Odoo harmonize your business with simple, efficient software that can handle everything for a fraction of the price. Sign up [e-mail] that's o d o o dot com.