Tight Values, Loose Ideas with Malcolm Gladwell [VIDEO]

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Tight Values, Loose Ideas with Malcolm Gladwell"
What Now? with Trevor Noah | Spotify Studios

In this engaging episode of What Now? with Trevor Noah, host Trevor Noah sits down with celebrated author and thought leader Malcolm Gladwell. The conversation delves deep into Gladwell's perspectives on the evolution of ideas, the importance of maintaining core values while allowing one's thoughts to adapt, and the broader implications of these concepts on society and personal life.

---

1. Opening Banter: The Influence of Children's Programming (00:00 - 02:00)

The episode begins with a light-hearted discussion about the dominance of children’s educational programs. Malcolm Gladwell humorously laments the overwhelming market share captured by shows like Sesame Street and Cocomelon.

Malcolm Gladwell (00:00):
"The market share capture, the brain share capture of toddlers by Sesame Street is like 95%."

Trevor Noah (00:12):
"It's still that high."

The conversation highlights concerns over the impact of such programming on children's cognitive and social development, with Gladwell jokingly stating, "I have outlawed Cocomelon" (00:25), emphasizing his playful critique of modern children's media.

---

2. Embracing Heritage and Identity (02:00 - 04:11)

Transitioning from media influence, Gladwell shares a personal revelation about his heritage. After taking a 23andMe test, he discovers he is 23% Igbo, leading to overwhelming positive responses from the Nigerian community online.

Malcolm Gladwell (02:35):
"I did my 23andMe, and I'm 23% Igbo. Oh, my God. Which is so fantastic."

This discovery sparks a discussion on cultural identity, with Gladwell reflecting on his ability to integrate into different communities seamlessly.

Trevor Noah (03:16):
"You can change the rules, you know, Nigerians, Nigerians, 1%. Each one of us will be technically 1% more than."

Gladwell recounts his interaction with Jamaican friends, emphasizing the communal spirit over rigid cultural boundaries.

---

3. Revisiting "The Tipping Point": Admitting Past Mistakes (04:11 - 11:57)

A significant portion of the conversation centers around Gladwell's decision to revisit his acclaimed work, The Tipping Point. Initially skeptical about revising such a foundational book, Gladwell explains his motivation to challenge and refine his earlier ideas.

Malcolm Gladwell (06:00):
"If you lived through that learning moment in 2012 when we took away stop and frisk and crime fell another 50%, if you lived through those next five years and you didn't change your mind, then you are morally bankrupt."

Gladwell uses the example of the stop-and-frisk policy in New York City to illustrate the importance of adapting one's views in light of new evidence. He criticizes the unwavering adherence to outdated ideas, emphasizing that true intellectual integrity lies in the ability to evolve.

Trevor Noah (05:21):
"Politicians in America are perfect examples. Very few of them are able to say, yeah, that was wrong."

This candid admission showcases Gladwell's commitment to intellectual honesty and the continuous pursuit of truth, even when it means revisiting and revising his previous works.

---

4. The Balance Between Values and Ideas (11:57 - 22:53)

The dialogue shifts to a philosophical exploration of maintaining core values while allowing ideas to remain flexible. Gladwell differentiates between values—held tightly—and ideas—held loosely.

Malcolm Gladwell (08:40):
"You have to respond to new evidence as it arises. That's the rule."

He underscores the necessity of not letting transient ideas overshadow deeply held values, advocating for a balance that fosters both personal integrity and intellectual growth.

Trevor Noah (14:11):
"Amendment means change, but I don't. We should let people change them."

The conversation touches on societal constructs, such as the US Constitution, highlighting the irony that while amendments are meant to facilitate change, there's often resistance to actualizing this intent.

---

5. Impact of Technology on Social Cohesion (22:53 - 26:02)

Gladwell and Noah discuss the profound effects of technology on communal experiences. Drawing parallels between the rise of on-demand content and the decline of shared cultural moments, they lament the loss of collective consumption.

Trevor Noah (24:54):
"It's robbed us of communal consumption."

Gladwell reminisces about the past, where shared experiences like watching the same TV shows fostered stronger communal bonds. He suggests that the fragmentation caused by individualized content consumption erodes these foundational social connections.

---

6. Parenting and Personal Life Influence (26:02 - 51:43)

As the conversation progresses, Gladwell opens up about his personal life, particularly how fatherhood has reshaped his perspectives. He shares emotional anecdotes about parenting challenges and the profound impact his children have on his worldview.

Malcolm Gladwell (44:33):
"My children just wanted to draw. She has a crush on the girlfriend of the nanny. It's the most hilarious thing I've ever seen."

This segment reveals the softer, more vulnerable side of Gladwell, illustrating how personal relationships can influence one's professional and intellectual endeavors. The discussion also touches upon modern parenting philosophies, with Gladwell advocating for empathy and emotional connectivity over rigid discipline.

---

7. Concluding Reflections: Embracing Change and Humility (51:43 - End)

In the final moments, both hosts reflect on the importance of humility and the willingness to change. Gladwell emphasizes that personal growth stems from active listening and open-mindedness.

Malcolm Gladwell (46:05):
"Any disappointment I have is irrelevant to them. It's just so liberating."

Trevor Noah aligns with this sentiment, encouraging a balance between seriousness and joy in life, and highlighting the societal shift towards rigid ideologies.

Trevor Noah (51:52):
"Thank you, man. Thank you for spending the time with us."

The episode wraps up with mutual appreciation, underscoring the value of open dialogue in fostering understanding and progress.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Malcolm Gladwell (00:00):
  "The market share capture, the brain share capture of toddlers by Sesame Street is like 95%."

• Malcolm Gladwell (02:35):
  "I did my 23andMe, and I'm 23% Igbo. Oh, my God. Which is so fantastic."

• Malcolm Gladwell (08:40):
  "You have to respond to new evidence as it arises. That's the rule."

• Trevor Noah (05:21):
  "Politicians in America are perfect examples. Very few of them are able to say, yeah, that was wrong."

• Malcolm Gladwell (44:33):
  "My children just wanted to draw. She has a crush on the girlfriend of the nanny. It's the most hilarious thing I've ever seen."

---

Key Takeaways

1. Intellectual Evolution: Gladwell advocates for the necessity of revisiting and revising one's ideas in light of new evidence, stressing that intellectual integrity requires adaptability.

2. Core Values vs. Flexible Ideas: Distinguishing between deeply held values and adaptable ideas, the conversation emphasizes maintaining personal integrity while allowing thoughts to evolve.

3. Impact of Technology: The shift from communal experiences to individualized content consumption is critiqued for eroding social cohesion and shared cultural moments.

4. Personal Growth Through Relationships: Parenthood and personal relationships significantly influence one's perspectives, highlighting the interplay between personal life and professional insights.

5. Humility and Open Dialogue: Embracing humility and fostering open conversations are essential for personal and societal growth, encouraging a balance between steadfastness and adaptability.

This episode offers a profound exploration of the dynamics between fixed values and the fluidity of ideas, urging listeners to embrace change while holding onto their core principles. Malcolm Gladwell's candid reflections provide valuable insights into personal growth, societal shifts, and the importance of intellectual humility.

Transcript

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Chubby, you don't know this yet. You will someday. You know the market share capture, the brain share capture of toddlers by Sesame street is like 95%.

[Trevor Noah]

It's still that high.

[Cristiano]

Oh, yes.

[Trevor Noah]

That's amazing.

[Cristiano]

It's a classic.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no. But I'm happy about. I thought, like, it was over for Sesame street and now it was all like, cocomelon and no. Oh, that's really good.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

They've got a strangle. They got. They have your kid in the head.

[Cristiano]

Yeah, it's Sesame Street.

[Trevor Noah]

That's a healthy headlong.

[Cristiano]

Peppa Pig and Cocoa Melon.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, Peppa Pig.

[Cristiano]

Cocomelon is like crack coco.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I have outlawed cocomelon.

[Trevor Noah]

Cocomelon is dangerous. I don't know what's happening.

[Cristiano]

I call them the cocoa fellas, the kids that watch that stuff.

[Trevor Noah]

I don't know what's weird with Coca Melon.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

If I have to listen to any more Cocoa Melon, I'm bringing back stop and frisk. That's how much it will radicalize me.

[Trevor Noah]

This is what now with Trevor Noah. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. The holidays are almost here, and who doesn't love getting a little back? This season, I can earn up to 3% daily cash back on presents I buy for my loved ones with my Apple card without paying a single fee. It's simple and convenient because it's in the wallet app on my iPhone, so it's always with me. And because everything I need is in one place, it's easy to see what I've spent and make a payment. So if you have an iPhone, you can apply for an Apple card and start using it right away. It's easy. Subject to credit approval. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.74% to 28.99% based on creditworthiness rates as of October 1, 2024, Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch Member, FDIC terms and [e-mail].

[Cristiano]

We were telling people when we talked about you, I was like, do you know black people don't know Malcolm Black, but white people don't know Malcolm Black.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah.

[Cristiano]

I was like, white people don't know.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I'm stealth. I would have back in the day, it would have been very. I was born in the wrong century. 19th century. Fantastic. For me.

[Cristiano]

You would have taken the system down from the inside out.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Like, wait a minute. Like historians would have uncovered a hundred years later. Wait a second. He was black. What was he doing in Congress?

[Cristiano]

Talking about Malcolm being passing to white people. Black people see the hair, they're like, no, no, no, no, no.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It's a tell.

[Trevor Noah]

It is a tell. It is completely a tell. But now you. I didn't know that. When did this Nigerian thing happen?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I did my 23andMe, and I'm 23% Igbo. Oh, my God. Which is so fantastic. And I put it on Twitter, and immediately. And this is like, every Nigerian on Twitter was like, oh, my God. Fantastic. But every single one was positive. Like, most, you know, inclusive experience I've ever had in my life. I was very happy. And because. But it was obvious, because Jamaicans are all Igbo, right?

[Cristiano]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Jamaica is just Nigeria, Right? It's my. It's my advanced.

[Trevor Noah]

So you had no. You had no clue that you had any Nigerian in you?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Well, I guessed.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay. But now, you know, definitive.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Now I know.

[Trevor Noah]

Wait, what is it? So 23, 23% Igbo. It's not enough for a tipping point, as we've learned from this book. It's not enough. Malcolm, you're like 7% short. You can change the rules, you know, Nigerians, Nigerians, 1%. Each one of us will be technically 1% more than.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

On the Jamaican friend. I was at the world championships track championships, and I see Shelly Ann Fraser Price, one of my heroes. So she's like, this big. I go up and say, hello, my name is Malcolm. I don't know if you know this. I'm half Jamaican. She says, there's no such thing as half Jamaican.

[Trevor Noah]

There's only Jamaican.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, that's the right attitude.

[Trevor Noah]

That is the right attitude.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That's your attitude. There's no such thing as 23% Nigerian.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. I sometimes think it wouldn't. That's what, like, if instead of the British, if, like, Africans colonized the world, no one would have been left out. Do you know what I mean? Cause, like, look. No. Cause all other colonization was like, you're not like us.

[Cristiano]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And then, like, whereas Africans are very much anyone black anywhere. They just go, like, no, no, you're with us. Let's go, let's go. It doesn't matter even if. Have you even seen those videos online of people who can just speak the language or can do the accent? Well, they're like, all right, you're one of us.

[Cristiano]

I'm saying, Malcolm should go to Abby Estelle. They'll make him a chief.

[Trevor Noah]

Chief Gladwell. Chief Gladwell. Malcolm Gladwell. Oh, man. Malcolm. I saw you were releasing a new book, and, you know I'm a huge fan of yours. We've talked over the years. I'm always trying to see what Malcolm Gladwell is thinking of to give me a sense of what I'm missing in the world. I think a lot of people think like that. You know, as my friend David says, who you've met, David always used to say, you make people think they're smart because they read your book and then they talk to other people about it. But like, this book is an interesting take on Malcolm Gladwell. Like Revenge of the Tipping Point. At first I was like, wait, is it a continuation? Is it a. But no, it feels like you are going up against you.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

You're thinking it's an exercise in self hatred. Is that what you're saying?

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no, no, no. Because here's the thing. Oftentimes people will write a book and very seldom will it change the world. Let's start with that, right? The Tipping Point, I would argue, changed the way people fundamentally think about many things. And then very few people would then go back and go, well, actually, let's change some of the thinking that this book basically laid the foundations for. Why do that?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Well, no one likes changing his mind more than me. First of all, I just enjoy it. My dad really enjoyed it. And as a kid, some of my greatest memories of my father, who was a marvelous character, was him just shamelessly changing his mind on a subject without any explanation or apology. He just would agree. He'd talk to somebody and he would always make this calculation. He would talk to someone and if he thought they knew even 1% more on a subject than he did, he'd just like, all right, you're right. You know, and that was this. And he was done. I thought it was fantastic as a child. And I. And secretly that's what I wanted. I want to be the guy who wakes up and decides. And Kate, my partner, is always making fun of me on this because I will not like someone and they'll just wake up. They're great. Like, why don't we have them over? She's like, wait, I thought you didn't like them. That was the past. Now I'm all over them. So I. I didn't read the Tipping Point after I wrote it. And then it was its anniversary and I thought, oh, I should read it again because we were thinking of doing a new revised edition. So I read it again. I'm like, wait a second, I wrote that. I just felt it's like arguing with the book the whole time. So that's. I want to do a new One that was basically what happened.

[Trevor Noah]

Are you the opposite of the same?

[Cristiano]

I'm the opposite. And that's why I find it so interesting that you were raised by a man who changes his mind easily. Like, my parents are, like, deep Christians, and they're not changing their mind about anything.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

My parents. Oh, deep Christians.

[Cristiano]

Okay, that's interesting.

[Trevor Noah]

They're not changing all of us here.

[Cristiano]

Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

They're super deep Christians. Here we are, three of us are gathered in his name. Let's go.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

No, but. No, not change your mind about that.

[Cristiano]

Yeah. So I'm saying that I'm used to real rigidity and rules, and I won't call it dogma, Orthodoxy. Right. So it's surprising that I think it takes great humility. But it also must be quite painful to go back and read this book that, as Trevor said, changed the way we think about ideas and how they spread and be, like, not right.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I don't think it's painful, first of all, just to go back on parents for a second. So my father. My father's. Can I talk about my dad?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, of course. Talk about your dad.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

He passed six or seven years ago, and I wrote his obituary, and I said he had strong opinions about the Bible, gardening and mathematics and on everything else. He was open to suggestion. And I sort of think that's the right model. You got to have your core set of things that you hold dearly. And I think you should. I always use the phrase that ideas should be held loosely, and they're not values, but ideas. Values you hold tightly. Ideas you hold loosely because stuff changes and you grow up or you're. You know. In the original tipping point, there's a chapter on crime, which is just why New York City crime fell in the 90s. It's an appalling chapter. I mean, it's just appalling.

[Cristiano]

Is this like the broken windows?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yes.

[Cristiano]

Jesus.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Like, what was I thinking? I mean, I didn't know any better, I guess, but it's not difficult. To me, it's very freeing to say I was wrong.

[Cristiano]

I'm curious, is it that. Do you think the world has changed that radically in the 25 years, or were the ideas wrong then?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Well, I've. I mean, the world. Yes, of course the world has changed, although probably changed less than we think. I think sometimes we fetishize, you know, certain kinds of technological innovation and think we've reinvented ourselves as human beings. And it's just, to my mind, a little bit more of the same. But mostly it's that I've Moved like the crime example is a good one, that I wrote that broken windows was a fetish in New York city in the 90s. The mayor Giuliani at the time was like, running around and saying the only way to stop murder was to stop people from peeing on the sidewalk. Now, I think he was right to say that people shouldn't be peeing on the sidewalk and we should clean up. That was totally right. But he made two subsequent connections. His first thing was that the way to stop people from engaging in that kind of behavior was to arrest them by the thousands. And then secondly, he said, and that's also, by the way, how you stop violent crime. Both of those second claims were, in retrospect, preposterous. Right in the moment, in the late 90s, when we had just witnessed New York go from being one of the least safe big cities in North America to one of the safest, we were sort of willing to accept, to pay any price for that improvement in safety and accept any, Any explanation. And that was the fever that I was caught up in. I was like, okay, we're arresting hundreds of thousands of young black men in the Bronx and Brooklyn, but better be better that than being killed. That's what we were all thinking. And then I subsequently learned this. It's actually an incredibly interesting history. What happens is a judge stops stop in Frisco, New York. We go from stopping 700,000 people in one year to stopping 20,000, and everyone says, including the judge who stopped it, crime is going to go back up. And what happens, crime falls another 50%, and everyone's like, oh, my God. Not only was stopping frisk irrelevant to the crime drop, maybe it was preventing us from using police resources in a way that actually helped solve. So we learned this happened in 2012. And my point is, if you lived through that learning moment in 2012 when we took away stop and Frisk and crime fell another 50%, if you lived through those next five years and you didn't change your mind, then you are morally bankrupt. You have to have changed your mind at that point. So you have to acknowledge it's not wrong to be wrong in 1996. It's wrong to not change your mind after we learn something crucial in those post stop and Frisk years. It's like, you have to. You have to respond. The price of playing the game of ideas in the world is you have to stay on your toes and respond to new evidence as it arises. That's the. You want to play this game. That's the rule.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay, here's the thing. I think there are two things that you don't do that probably help you. One, you don't make it your identity. So you wrote about broken windows, but then there were some people who shaped their lives around broken windows. And then secondly, you didn't implement any policies. And I think that's probably one of the scariest things. Like politicians in America are perfect examples. Very few of them are able to say, yeah, that was wrong. We used data that at the time was misread or misunderstood, or we used what we had and we made an incorrect decision. They don't say that. They go like, no. If you look at what we were trying to do and we still. Because everyone's afraid to say. I mean, just in life, everyone is afraid to say I was wrong. Like listening to you right now, I don't know how many times I've heard human beings say that. Just go like. I look back and go like, damn, what was I thinking?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I mean, yeah, I find it so weird. And also, it was so long ago. Like, this is the, this was the late 90s, I'm older than you guys. But it's like, have you looked at your high school yearbook? Or like, it's just everything about it is cringe worthy. I mean, it should be fine to look back on your 25 years in the past self and have an issue. I would hope you would have an issue.

[Cristiano]

I think it's because so much of the world that we live in currently is built, say as a foreigner coming to America so many times the Constitution is referenced and the amendments are referenced. Our world is built on ideas that sometimes emerge thousands of years ago and we refuse to revisit them in the same way you're revisiting Tipping Point.

[Trevor Noah]

But the funny thing about the amendments for me is the name itself. Like whenever people get angry, you know, like you talk about the amendments, you go like, oh, you change the amendment. Then like, you don't change the amendment. I'm like, amendment means change. It literally means change, but I don't.

[Cristiano]

Want any more change.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes, but what I'm saying is like, that's, that's what I find ironic in the whole situation is like, I agree with you, Constitution, old document, but it's a living document. You know, fall into like, it was one of the first documents that was created where they said, hey, the whole purpose of this thing is that you're supposed to change it. Because look, we think what we think right now. It's almost like the forefathers looked at Each other. And they were just like, I don't know about these wigs. I don't know about these shoes. So I don't know about these ideas.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, exactly.

[Trevor Noah]

So let's let people change them. And like, I've seen. I mean, I don't know if you, like, read reviews about your work. Some people almost seem angry at you. They, like, seem angry that Malcolm Gladwell would change because here's my theory. So I love changing my mind. Okay. Maybe that's why I like you so much. But I think some people base their ideas on other people's ideas. And so then if you change your idea, they get so angry at you because they're like, no, you're making them do work. Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

You have to revise your opinion of them. And that seems like, oh, that. That seems like an imposition. I think that's what. As opposed to kind of, you know, it's the same way when a musician makes a kind of change in their style. There's always a set of fans who are appalled by this. Like, they don't. Like, they want the musician to be kind of frozen in amber, to be the same person they encountered for the first time at 16 and how dare you use an electric guitar or whatever the argument is. Yeah, it is a funny. I don't. I mean, I think you, you. The question is, who is your obligation to as a writer? Is it to your audience or is it to yourself? I think it has to be. First and foremost, it has to be to yourself.

[Trevor Noah]

We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. So. So now let's. Let's play. I want to play a Malcolm Gladwell game in this moment here. So someone might go, but, Malcolm, how can I trust this? Because now, like, you just wrote a book that says I shouldn't trust what you wrote in the other book. And then how do you like. How do you like. Do you know what I mean?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It's not that you shouldn't trust what I said in the other book.

[Trevor Noah]

Right.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It's that I've moved on. It's just not where I am at this moment.

[Trevor Noah]

So you're saying, like, it's not that the ideas are wrong, it's that we should be able to change our. We should be able to evolve our ideas based on new information.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I haven't repudiated them. They're not who I am now. Right. It's, you know, in the same way, it wasn't to go back to my dad when my dad changed his mind. Sometimes it would Be he would go from, you know, A to Z. But sometimes it was just. He just. There was an earlier version of himself that believed this and then that self was gone and he was now someone who believed this new thing. It was just a kind of. It was. It's just about accepting the evolution. The thinking involves evolution.

[Trevor Noah]

You're somebody, you were a journalist, you know, and you used to digging and borrowing and you know, finding old tapes and newspaper articles and like, for the average person, like, where do they get the new ideas? Where do they even get the opportunity to change their minds?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

You know, this is interesting. I have a friend of mine, I was playing the game of. I love playing the magic wand game where if you could change, wave magic wand and change one thing, what would it be in the world? And her answer was to make everyone in the world for one year trade places with someone else in the world. So just imagine a big random. Everyone in the world puts their random hat and then you take, you put your address, you put your address in a hat and then you pull out a different address and you gotta live there for a year. And her argument would be, this only.

[Trevor Noah]

Works for people with addresses, by the way. I'm just gonna point this out. If you're unhoused, yeah, some people are just on the street. You just have to put where you were on the street and then someone touches with you.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And her argument would be that this would be the single greatest way to solve like single greatest short term solution to mankind's problems. By the way, I think she's 100% right. This is such a genius idea. But my point is, if you want to participate in the world in a kind of ethical way is you have to do a version of this in your life. So I have a simple thing I do which is I try and change the people. I follow a very small number of people on Twitter and I change, constantly change them. And so I cycle through like, I'm always like once a week or something, I drop two or three people and add two or three people. Just trying because you get exposed to new.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And I try to get the. I also want. So I follow the Ukrainian war. I don't know why really closely, but entirely through these ex military guys who are obsessed with logistics. I love these guys and like, it's stuff I would never in a million years have heard of before. It's not. None of what they say is in the news. It's all so weird and super interesting. My favorite guy's this guy Trent Chilenko, I love Trent Cholenko. I want to meet him one day. Who's like, by the way, he's been saying that Russians. Russians are going to lose for. He's been saying this since the beginning of the war. And he had this great tweet early in the war where he found a photograph of a Russian transport carrier, like a truck that was stuck in the mud. And he zeros in on the tires.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, I remember this.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Do you remember this?

[Trevor Noah]

Yes, I remember this.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Made in the ussr. And he was like, they've lost. They came in. Their tires are from before the wall fell. And he had this. He goes. This whole rant about tires, but how you got to be rotating the tires. If the truck's in storage, the tire's going to break apart. It's like. And if there's tires of that. That says that you. Doesn't work and you don't have this. And like, I was like. So that's like. You have to keep exposing yourself. That's how you. That's how you learn about what you need to update. Right.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

So now when I read something conventional about the war, I have a slightly different perspective because I have trends in my head.

[Cristiano]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And I'm asking a different set of questions about than I would have otherwise. I'm not that I. It's not that I'm a skeptic. It's just that I just. I have a different. You know, I'm looking at it from a different perspective, like what you've described.

[Cristiano]

I think you have this basic level of intellectual curiosity. And Trevor said earlier that the reason you can hold your ideas loosely is because your ideas aren't your identity.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah.

[Cristiano]

Now, I would say it feels in this specific moment for a lot of people that their ideas are actually a huge part of their identity. They make up their identity. So if they're not going to come apart from that idea, because it's like, who am I? There's a vacuum after that. So what do we do when we're engaging with people in our lives who ideas have become their identity, and you're trying to get them to see another point of view or point them towards something else, and they're like, oh, you're just a crazy liberal or you're just a crazy conservative.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah. There. I thought about this recently because I was. I go to this little coffee shop in my nearby hometown upstate, and there's always these two old guys who are in the corner. They're there every time I go there, and they're always Having an argument about. Not an argument, a long discussion about movies. They're movie junkies and they have encyclopedic knowledge and I eavesdrop on them all the time. And I realize that they're. There's something really lovely there, which is that they have. Clearly a huge part of their identity is about the enjoyment and appreciation of that particular art form. And I would imagine that if one of those guys was a Trumper MAGA type and the other was a diehard liberal, it wouldn't matter because they had found this area that was more important to their identity and that where they could find common ground and where they could find each other, find joy in each other's company. And it's those kinds of spaces that I feel have been eroded. I use the movie example for a reason, which was for the longest time, in many cultures around the world, the movies occupied this huge position in people, the way people related to the world. They saw, you know, you grow. People talk to people who grew up in New York in the 30s and 40s. They would see a movie every day and they would. That's what they would talk about on the playground and that's what they would, you know, and you know, sports function in that way. And I sometimes think to what we need actually weirdly is more sports, not less sports. Because sports are one of the few things that can occupy a big space and bring people together and you can have a long conversation with someone else. Sports and politics would never come up. You know, my. Even my parents would be good example. My, you know, white father, black mother. A lot of people looked at them and said, you know, you guys are so different. They. And they. That's not how they organize their life. They said they thought they were exactly the same two committed Christians who, you know, their fathers read the same books. I think that's the issue. It's just not good to be spend all your time wallowing in political arguments.

[Trevor Noah]

But I also think it's this. I think, you know, I remember a friend of mine describing to me he worked as a computer programmer and I remember one day he was explaining the concept of the second system effect. The second system effectively is what they teach programmers and coders about when working on a program and then moving it to the next version. And they go, you always have to consider the things that might happen that you don't know might happen because you've now changed the program over because you always think of what you're updating. You always think of what you're improving. But you seldom think of what that could cause as a knock on effect to what you didn't want, an unintended consequence. And oftentimes that's what happens. You'll see it on your phone all the time. They'll go, new software. And then very quickly afterwards they'll be like new software on top of the new software. Because we just realized that what the new software did was it made the keyboard unusable when you were sending a text to certain people in a group chat. That's a second system effect. Right. And that gave me a whole new way to think about life. Because now I would go, oh, sometimes we make a change that is oftentimes an improvement, by the way. But we don't think of what the possible second system effectively could be like streaming and the proliferation of TV shows and like, you know, like On Demand. You can watch Breaking Bad when you want to watch Breaking Bad. And have you watched Game of Thrones? I'll watch it when I. You know what I mean? It's given you so much choice. But what a lot of people don't realize is it's robbed us of communal consumption. But then what have we all seen the debate? Oh, I saw the debate. Oh, I saw the. Did you see the debate? And so unfortunately, now I don't think it's politics so much as it's live. Live is the only thing that still exists in society that forces us to all like to experience it at the same time. And so it's not sports and it's not politics. It's just these are the final vestiges of live television. The debates are live, the election is live.

[Cristiano]

It's the Olympics.

[Trevor Noah]

The Trump assassination is live. The Olympics are live. The super bowl is live. But I think what it's done is it's robbed us of shared realities is what I think. You know, I used to watch the same TV shows as my parents. Not because I wanted to, but because I had to. And inversely, they had to watch the same shows I watched. So sometimes my mom would be watching the cartoons or the sitcoms that I was watching before we got to the news or like a murder movie, documentary or whatever thing. But we had ATV and it played in linear time, so we just had to do it together. And I actually think that's one of the things that we're experiencing in society is like less live.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, I'm so, I realize now when I'm outside of live, like many people, I'm lost.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I mean, I watched Perfect Couple.

[Cristiano]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Why did I watch Perfect Couple on Netflix. It's like, never getting. I got like, six. Got five episodes in. I'm like, I cannot believe that I have just devoted this.

[Trevor Noah]

Now it's time for F1.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Love.

[Trevor Noah]

A segment where I get to talk all things F1 and why you should be excited for the F1 Las Vegas GP. So if you know anything about me, you know, I love a few things in my life. I love video games. I love tech. I love traveling. I love copious amounts of ice cream. And there are few things I love more than Formula one. I've been watching Formula one my entire life. I started watching it with my dad. I think I told you this, but, yeah, it's just. It is one of the most exciting, crazy, anything can happen sports in the world. And as I've grown, I've grown to appreciate it more because, you know, F1 athletes apparently are the fittest athletes in the world. They've got some of the strongest necks, which I know is a weird thing to think is cool, but I do, because apparently their necks can sustain, like, 3, 4, or 5G, which is pretty insane if you know what a neck can usually handle. But anyway, I'm really excited because Formula one used to only be in Europe, and now one of the most exciting races of the season is in Las Vegas. Formula one has two kinds of races. You've got the races that are on tracks, and so those ones are really fun and fantastic. But then every now and again, you'll have a race that's on the streets of the city that it's in. And the F1 race in Las Vegas is one of those. The cars are out on the strip, racing around. I'm talking of hundreds and hundreds of miles per hour. The stuff you wish you could do. They do it for real. And Vegas is the best place for it. You get to go out, you get to see the drivers over the weekend. You get to hear the cars. And if you've never heard an F1 car, like you haven't lived, it literally sounds like the end and the beginning of the world at the same time. If you get a chance, try and go through the pit lanes. If you have that opportunity, it's amazing. You get to see the cars up close. You get to see the technology. You get to see, like, even the tires. The tires are so impressive. But if you don't get the backstage experience, just go to the race, wear a hat, cheer for a team, see people drive cars the way they're supposed to be driven, and then think to yourself, I could do that at home, but do not do it at home. That was F1 love brought to you by Las Vegas hosting the upcoming F1 race November 21 to 23. Tickets are available now by visiting F1 Las Vegas. GP.com tickets there's got to be one chapter in this book that you. That you enjoyed writing the most. Yeah. You have like a guilty joy when it comes to certain topics. This is something I know about you. You have like a. You'll have like a giggle in you. You have like a mischievous feeling in you. Or you're like, oh, I love that I'm getting into this. Like that. So what's like the most Gladwell chapter in this book where it's the Harvard chapter. The Harvard chapter. The admissions. Yeah, let's talk through that.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It's all about this strange fact that there is no university in the United States that has more Division 1 varsity sports than Harvard. So everyone thinks that the sports obsessed schools are like, in the South. No, no, no, no. The most sports obsessed school is Harvard. Not only that, they're so obsessed with that they. If you're an athlete, they have the front doors for smart kids who compete, and it's really hard to get in the front door. They have a back door for athletes and rich people, of course.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, of course.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And the back door is way easier to get in. The simplest way to get into Harvard is to be a good athlete, not to be a good student. So the question is, why would they care so much about sports that they would, like, create a special backdoor for them and also play somebody? And I think the answer is in the kind of sports they're playing. So what sports are. If they have all these. Rowing.

[Trevor Noah]

Rowing. Got it.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Heavyweight and lightweight. Rowing. And each team is like, what is it, 25. I've forgotten some incredible number. Fencing.

[Cristiano]

Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

Fencing.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Sailing.

[Cristiano]

Oh, interesting.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

How do we feel about sailing, Sailing, Tennis.

[Trevor Noah]

Tennis.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Interesting. Tennis. Now rugby. Now rugby. You guys are Africans. Particularly you. You come. You guys are serious rugby playing. People understand that in the American context.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, no.

[Cristiano]

Yes.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Rugby's a very different animal. Not. They're not playing rugby. And you know, south side shop, field hockey, squash. You can see where I'm going with. Yeah. So they reserve. You add up all those numbers, men and women. Right. Coaches, kids sitting on the bench. You add all those numbers up and you see that they have reserved an entire huge pool of admission slots for white people with enough money to be good at white people's sports. It's. The whole thing is like so hilariously. Obvious. And like they're pretending. For years, they've been pretending. Oh, no, no, We. We believe the athlete brings something special to the camp. No bullshit. Like, I do. I do this thing with tennis. In order to play Division 1 tennis in this country, you must have played junior tennis.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

In order to play junior tennis, your parents have to. I did the math. Have to spend at a minimum $50,000 a year on your. On your game, and probably north of 100 grand when you add up all the things. So basically, what Harvard is saying is we've got whatever is 12 spots on our tennis team, which we are reserving for people who have parents capable of spending $100,000 a year on their games. Like, it's like, I mean, if you don't do this, if you have an elite school that just takes the smartest kids, what that means is your school's going to. Culture is going to turn over with each new wave of smart immigrants that come. So you're going to be. You're going to be all Jewish in the 50s, then, you're going to be all Korean now, and you're going to be all Nigerian in, like 10 years.

[Cristiano]

I don't think that's a bad thing.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I think it's an amazing thing. But you can't. But you can see how if your conception of what your school is is a place where you have lots of preppy kids in blazers, you can't play that game because you're going to wake up one day and you're going to have a lot of Ebola shouting in loud, voices running around your campus. And that's unthinkable if.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, it's funny that you say that, because I've noticed that in traveling the world, there are some cities in the world that have made it so that the area, like certain areas are sort of dictated by who can just afford to buy there, right? So there'll be parts of London, for instance, where I went like 20 years ago, and then it was like a certain group of people, and then all of a sudden. And then it would be Russian and then it would be this and then it would be that. And I was just like, oh, wow, this whole area switched up because the money is something that can shift to people and to cultures. But now rowing and sailing, and that doesn't change.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That does not change.

[Trevor Noah]

You know what I mean? Let me ask you a question, Malcolm. In the book, there are many moments where you talk about. It's not necessarily the tipping point, but it's like some of the larger things that made something happen. Like, for instance, you talk about Will and Grace, you know, and you go, this is like the show that changes people's perspectives on gay people in America, et cetera, you know. And then some people would go like, ah, but what about Ellen? Ellen was on before that. And in the opioid section, you know, when you're talking about the Sackler family, you're like, this is, you know, the story they told and the passive voice when they're defending themselves. And you. And you tell the story where some people might read it and go like, oh, but I actually think the issue is the doctors. Like, how do you choose to hone in? Or where do you think you've actually found the real lever that has moved society or shifting in a certain direction versus others?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

So the Will and let's do the Will and Grace one. That was really interesting. So there's a really brilliant woman whose work I read and love by the name of Bonnie Dow, who does this kind of meta analysis of television shows and their importance. And she looked at the way, including in Ellen, the way that television had described and discussed gay relationships. And she said that up until Will and Grace, every time gay people were talked about, even if they were talked about on television in a positive way, a series of rules were in place. The emphasis on the show was always about how straight people reacted to the gay person, not on the gay person themselves. The second thing was that the gay person's gayness was always a problem that had to be solved. And the third thing was that the gay person was always in isolation. So she looks at Ellen, she says, ellen, yes, had a gay character, first openly gay character on network television. But those three rules were still in effect. When Ellen comes out in that pivotal sitcom show from whenever it was, all the rules are in effect. Her gayness is a problem her friends have to solve. The whole show is about her straight friends dealing with the fact that Ellen is, like, complicated their lives. And she has no gay community on those shows. It's just her. Will and Grace comes along and breaks all three rules for the first time on television. Will's got a community. He's got Jack, right? And that whole, like, his gayness is not a problem to be solved. It's never. It's never even a problem. It's just a fact, right? And the show is not about straight people reacting to Will. It's about Will and Grace together reacting normally to. And that makes that show revolutionary. And I. That argument, to me is so. And if You. If all you do is watch Will and Grace, without the benefit of that kind of analysis, you miss it.

[Cristiano]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And there's an incredible book that was written about the way Hollywood treated homosexuality, pointing out that, look at all the movies in which gay people appear from the 60s through the end of the 90s. And this guy just counts up what happens to the character, the gay character. And like, in 60% of the cases, the gay character dies, in 10%, they commit suicide. In 10%, they die of a drug overdose. Like, Hollywood just killed them off.

[Trevor Noah]

Right?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Like, that's what they did. And you were allowed to feel sympathy for. Because. But they were always. It was always this dreadful burden, right? And Will and Grace, it's not a burden. It's just like he's just. He's.

[Trevor Noah]

It just happens to be part of their lives.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It's just part of their life. And that is so, like, I feel like it is no coincidence that's right around the time when the country wakes up one day after flipping out about gay marriage. Wakes up one day and just doesn't even say, I love gay marriage. Just shrugs and says and says, are we really going to fight about this? And it just goes away.

[Trevor Noah]

So it's actually. It's actually funny, you know, when I was reading through that chapter and when I was reading through some of the chapters about, like, overstories that you talk about, you know, the story that is over, every other story that we're telling ourselves, I don't know if you've watched it. There's a. There's an animated movie. I think it's Mitchell's Versus the Machines, I think it's called. And it's a story of this family that goes up against, like, machines taking over the world. And one day I was having a conversation with some. A group of friends, and someone said to me, like, oh, I hated that movie. And I was like, really? It was a great movie. They're like, yeah, it was great. But I didn't like that at the end we learned that the main protagonist was a gay character. And I was like, why not? And they were like, why didn't we know from the beginning? I feel like you just tried to sneak it in. And I was like, are you pro? And she's like, no, I'm pro gay rights. And that's why I feel like it should have been. And then I said, I think that's been the problem with a lot of programming, actually, is that because Hollywood as a whole, and obviously I'm using a big umbrella here. But because Hollywood as a whole, people forget, is a business. They make these, like, fake stories and fake moves that are artificially trying to jump on trends that are not trends. Do you not. Do you get what I'm saying? So they'll be like, oh, wow, gay people are becoming very popular in society. We need to make a gay show. And you're like, what is a gay show? And they're like a show where a person uses their gayness to make sure that the community center doesn't get shut down. And it's like, guys, that's not a show. That's not a thing. Gay people are not using their gayness to do. You get what I'm saying?

[Cristiano]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And I actually think that becomes part of the problem is like, now we are not witnessing people as human beings. The story is about, you are black, and so now because of your blackness, you must make the black. Blackity black. I was like, no, man, just make a story. And to your point, Will and Grace, it's like, yeah, Will and Jack were just. They were gay. But the story wasn't like, what gay thing? Gays them today? It was like, no, it's just a story. And you got to know them as human beings.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And the show is interesting because it puts a finger on. The issue fundamentally was not that by the early 21st century, most Americans thought that there was something pathological about being gay or they had some revulsion at. No, it was quite specific. It was. They did not believe that gay people were capable of the same kind of relationships as straight people. It was that specific. It was about relationships, and that's why marriage was being denied. And that show is just about a. Is about a successful relationship involving a. And in the previous sort of. To get your point, Trevor, the preachingists assumed the problem was specific to something about the gay person and the way they practiced their life. No, no, no, no. It was. It was a separate thing about could they participate in something that straight people have been participating in for thousands and thousands of years. And just getting people to say, oh, yeah, they can participate. That's all we needed. Yeah, yeah, you didn't need to win the bigger battle.

[Trevor Noah]

Right. I've seen a few times how so, like, for me, this is. This is purely anecdotal, but in New York, I play. I play football, I play soccer with a bunch of guys from all over the world. Literally all over the world, all different walks of life. You know, like, we have all of Africa on the team, and then we have Europe, and then we have Eastern Europe. And then we have, like, sometimes we'll have like, Australia and Asia and then America, obviously. But it'll be a collection, 22 guys from everywhere coming together. And one of the fascinating things I've noticed is we have built our relationships and our friendships and our perceptions of each other and each other's peoples without ever speaking about them. Does that make sense?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

When we come to the game, we play the game. I judge the other people by how they play the game, and they judge me by how I play the game. Badly. Well, on a day, terribly. But that's how we know each other. So you're like, latif, why don't you do this? You always do this. Joe. Joe, why are you doing this?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I don't know.

[Trevor Noah]

Zero technique. You have zero technique. Why are you doing this? And it's like, shut up, Joe. And then like, what I realized, the one day was almost magical is like, everyone on that team has a human. Has a human example of somebody from another country. So if you say to them, do you. What are you, Ugandans? They go like, oh, man, I know this guy Joe. He's from Uganda. And it's like, oh, what are you getting? Then he's just like, you know him as a human being. Does that make sense? And I think sometimes in these stories, we forget that we don't get to know people as human beings because we don't see them doing human being things. And then we give ourselves, like, the full. We give, like. I mean, when I say ourselves, I mean, like, let's say the dominant group. You get to exist in your fullness.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And then everyone who's on the margins has to exist only in one area. It's like, all right, gay people, you get a day of pride. And then the rest of it is for straight people. And even then, we're going to be like, why do you get a day? And you're like, well, every day is a straight pride day. You know, every day is like chinos and terrible shirts. It's like.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

It's also. The soccer thing is great because the key to getting people to making that magic happen is to have everyone give everyone a job to do. You're all busy. That's why it works. Right? That's the kind of like I always. The busyness thing. If you're all focused on the game, you're exhausted, you're running up and down. Who has time for all the nonsense?

[Trevor Noah]

Don't go anywhere because we got more. What now after this?

[Cristiano]

Malcolm, I'm curious. You say you went Back Red Tipping Point. And you're like, this is appalling. Right. I'm interested about why it wasn't just an amendment, because most people would do, like, there's a revised edition and you write a chapter and you say, like, summary. Why is it revisiting? And it's a whole book.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Because I'm crazy, okay? Because I don't have enough to do. Because I have. Because having two kids apparently, is just really easy. And I can do. You know, I got time.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm loving watching the difference in a man's perspective on having kids and a woman's. Malcolm's like, yeah, it feels like you have more time. And Cristiano's like, there's no time left. My life is over.

[Cristiano]

I wrote another book.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

No, I have. I've worked it out. That I have. I have 45 minutes to myself a day. Okay. Between 10 and 10:45. That's my time.

[Cristiano]

Okay. And you write.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That's all I got. That's all I got.

[Cristiano]

And you write your book.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

No, no, no, no, no. I don't know. I. I also thought it would be fun. I actually had more. I've been enjoying myself tremendously over the last. I've had a kind of. Ever since I started the podcasting stuff, it's loosened me up about. I'm not. I'm a lot less precious about the stuff I do, and I'm doing different kinds of stories, and I. So I just. I. My position now is, why not?

[Cristiano]

Yeah.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And why not do something that sounds like it'll be interesting? Who knows what'll happen? The turning point was, for me was when I started the podcast and I started doing weird show like, shows on cranky kind of, you know, going after golfers or whatever. And I was like, that was really fun. Like, I didn't realize that. What kind of thing. And then I did that audiobook with Paul Simon with my friend Bruce, which, you know, I don't really know that much about music. I know. I like Paul Simon. And we just sat down with him and it was just. So. We did hours and hours of interviews with him, and it was. It literally changed my life. I just realized, wow, I thought I was in this for the writing. I'm not. I'm in this because I like talking to people. I like interviewing them. That's what I like.

[Trevor Noah]

Right.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And that when I realized, I was like, oh, this clarifies everything. I shouldn't be obsessing about the what's, you know, my what. How I'm going to make A story out of this. I should be obsessing about the interview, the conversation. And so I did it again this summer with this incredible woman. And I met with her, like, eight times. And she's someone who deals with trauma. I'm going to get emotional. She was involved with a guy on death row, and she fails to keep him alive to save him, and he gets killed by the state. And I wanted to know what was going through her head when he died. That's what I wanted to know. And I decided I was going to take the long path. We took 16 hours, whatever it was, to get there.

[Trevor Noah]

Wow.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And then we kind of got there and I was completely overwhelmed. I couldn't stop crying. I just was. It was so. And then I interviewed. I went back and I interviewed the. It was so unprofessional. I interviewed the lawyer, the guy's lawyer, and I had him tell the same story. And I couldn't stop crying. I just. I had to end the interview. I was like, sorry. I'm sorry, sir. I can't. I can't. It's just. But it was. Because I just made that investment, and I had just sat and listened, right? That's. I realized at the grand old age of 61, I realized that's what I want to do. Like, that's. And there's a lot of that in this book. It's a lot of just sitting and listening to people, like. And kind of trying to make sense of them.

[Trevor Noah]

What I'm hearing you say is something that I feel like we could all work on a little bit more, and that is being a little less serious about how we see ourselves in the world, you know, Because I think of the different paths, the different universes that Malcolm Gladwell could have been in. You could have been someone that got more serious and more prescriptive and, you know, you could have written a book about. And now, let me tell you, it's 20,000 hours, and here's what else you gotta do. It's not just the windows. It's the doors and the floors and the sidewalks. And, you know, you could. No, you really. And I think there are people who do that because it becomes. Again, going back to. It becomes their identity. So they're like, I've achieved success in this. I must hold on to it, and I need to do more of it. And then the second part of it is we forget to have, like, fun. We forget the fun side of life. We forget the enjoyment. We forget the people are very, like, serious about things. I even noticed. I was falling into it. Like, if you asked me a question, I would give you like the serious answer first. But I'm not that person, actually, you know, and I've noticed it starting in America, to be honest. And like, South Africa's very far behind, thank God. But like, when I'm in South Africa, I realize I'm like, I'm taking this far too seriously. I'm taking all of it too seriously. Do you.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Can I tell you my South Africa story on this very front?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Now I forget. The president of South Africa, his name is Ram Ramaphosa.

[Trevor Noah]

Ramaphosa.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

So I'm at this conference in South Africa. Actually, that's when I texted you, because I was walking around, came down and I was like, white people know their real estate. And then. And Trevor's like, yes, they do. So I go to this conference and Ramaphosa speaking, he gets up in front of the stage, he's like. And the lights go out, right? Because the power is always going off.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, yes.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

In Cape Town. And there's silence. And then you hear Ramaphosa saying, it's all my fault. And the whole room just starts laughing. I was like, how many leaders of major countries the world would make would make a self deprecating joke at that moment? Because it's been a huge political issue for him.

[Trevor Noah]

Huge issue.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

And so what does he do? He makes. And it's like, it was hilarious. It's just hilarious. I was like, this is off topic, but I was chatting with these people at this conference and I'm talking, I was like, you know, haven't a lot of people been leaving South Africa? Aren't you worried? This guy says now it's the best thing. He's like, the only people left in South Africa now are the people who want to be here. Yeah, I thought that was fantastic. Like, totally changed my perception of. It's like, that's right. They're the ones who are tough enough and interested and committed and like. And his point was like, let them go. You know, we're here. This is beautiful.

[Cristiano]

Malcolm, if you want to revisit another book, I'll put Blink aside because Blink is one of my favorites. Outliers. This 10,000 hours rule. As a parent, I know a lot of people who've been parents for more than 10,000 hours.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Doesn't get any better.

[Cristiano]

They are terrible.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Terrible.

[Cristiano]

And they raise rotten kids. Look at the world we live in. So many bro. Broken people who need therapy. I think we need to go back and look at the 10,000 hours.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

You're absolutely right. I, you know, the. Do you do this? I've started to do this now and it's so terrible. Is I now with no standing whatsoever other than three years as a parent, I'm just openly critiquing people's parenting.

[Cristiano]

Yeah, I'm very judgmental. Judging is fun.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I have to stop myself. What are you doing? Like, yeah, you see light, you gotta stop it. I'm for a go. It makes it worse.

[Cristiano]

Oh, yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Have you, have you found that your children have changed how you even look at data or storytelling or stories?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

There's zero connection between any intellectual idea I've ever held and my parenting. This is not a thing that's totally.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no. I'm not saying you're parenting. I mean more them being in your life. And then like, for instance, I'm watching your face while you speak about them. Every mention of them, even the idea of them, your face lights up in a different way. You laugh, you giggle, you. There's a. There's a different side of you that comes out. So I'm asking how have they affected the way you see data or stories or the world or your.

[Cristiano]

How you approach your work?

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah.

[Cristiano]

Because they always ask women this question. So I like that Trevor's asking a man this question.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Well, I always joke that they're free content. I find them just endlessly hilarious and it makes it very difficult for me to take other things as serious.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, there you go.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

So it is part of like, I just. They just become the center of your universe and like everything else sort of fades away in importance. Any disappointment I have is irrelevant to them. It's just so liberating. Like, you know, they just, you know, my three year old this morning just wanted to like draw. She's making a picture for. She has a crush on the girlfriend of the nanny. It's the most hilarious thing I've ever seen. And she was making a picture for them and that's like, that's what she, you know, and everything else kind of. But it has. But I do understand. You do understand how powerless. Yeah. You are. It's just like, it's hilarious.

[Cristiano]

You just, it's this surrender.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

You just surrender.

[Cristiano]

But our kids are so different. My 4 year old threw the most explosive tantrum in the grove the other day. And the old man sitting next to us switched off his hearing aid.

[Trevor Noah]

Wow. Wow.

[Cristiano]

He switched it off. And I was like, that's judging my parenting.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That's epic.

[Cristiano]

But he's great. He's great. But he has this moments of like, yeah, he becomes really high spirits and you should have energetic.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah, that's a good sign.

[Cristiano]

But then it was also, I have to surrender. That's all. You know that gentle parenting bullshit. Just ride the wave and it will end.

[Trevor Noah]

You know what? In a few years, maybe in a decade, we'll get to relook at our parenting today and we'll be like, huh, Maybe we could have been a little harsher. Maybe we could have.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

But I have a theory.

[Cristiano]

Trevor wants to bring back beating kids.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no, no, no. Let me be on the record. Let me be on the record. Before we wrap this up, let me be on the record and say, I do not believe that children. I don't believe that parents should ever hit their kids ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. Other people should be allowed to hit your kids because then we've created. It's a community thing. And it's like parents can signal to other people that they need their kid disciplined. Then there's no conflict in your child's mind between love and discipline. Let's think about. We don't have to solve it now. You go do the research. You think about it as a parent. I'm gonna go formulate the idea and then we'll come back.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I'm totally downloading.

[Trevor Noah]

Let's go back to the village.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

I. You wish someone else around the table would come over.

[Trevor Noah]

That's what I'm saying.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

No. You could be helping each other 100%. If I see you across the room at some restaurant, anytime, signal me from afar.

[Trevor Noah]

I will come over and I will do that for you. Malcolm, I know you've got to go now. I want to say thank you, man. Thank you for spending the time with us.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

This is really fun.

[Trevor Noah]

Thank you for joining us.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Thank you.

[Cristiano]

Thank you, Malcolm. Great.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

That was lovely.

[Cristiano]

I want to see pictures now.

[Malcolm Gladwell]

Oh, I'll show you pictures. I'll get my phone.

[Trevor Noah]

What now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin and Jody Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackl. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of what Now.