Tripping Past Your Ego with Michael Pollan [VIDEO]

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Tripping Past Your Ego with Michael Pollan"

Podcast Information:

• Title: What Now? with Trevor Noah
• Host/Author: Spotify Studios
• Episode: Tripping Past Your Ego with Michael Pollan [VIDEO]
• Release Date: September 26, 2024
• Description: In this episode, Trevor Noah engages in a profound conversation with Michael Pollan, a renowned author and thinker, and guest Christiana Mbakwe. The discussion delves into the transformative potential of psychedelics, particularly mushrooms, their societal implications, and personal perspectives on their use.

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Introduction to Psychedelics and Personal Experiences

Trevor Noah begins the conversation by juxtaposing the simple perception of drugs in his upbringing with the transformative experiences psychedelics can offer. He reflects on his initial disdain for substances like alcohol and cigarettes, shaped by his family's strict stance against them.

• Trevor Noah [07:00]: "Drugs disconnect you from yourself, and psychedelics connect you to yourself."

Christiana Mbakwe shares her fears and reservations about psychedelics, rooted in her role as a mother and her concerns about the broader societal implications.

• Christiana Mbakwe [08:00]: "I may be a little bit afraid because... people should just be Pentecostals."

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Michael Pollan on the Openness and Risks of Psychedelics

Michael Pollan provides a balanced perspective on psychedelics, emphasizing both their potential benefits and inherent risks. He discusses how societal taboos have shifted, making psychedelics more acceptable today compared to the past.

• Michael Pollan [09:31]: "I find when people read, they do become more open."

He underscores the importance of addressing risks upfront to foster a more informed and nuanced understanding of psychedelics.

• Michael Pollan [09:43]: "We can talk about risk right at the beginning."

Pollan highlights that classical psychedelics like LSD and psilocybin have no recorded lethal dose, contrasting them with substances like Tylenol.

• Michael Pollan [11:22]: "There's no recorded lethal dose. That's quite remarkable."

---

Therapeutic Benefits and Societal Acceptance

The conversation shifts to the therapeutic applications of psychedelics, particularly in end-of-life care and treatment for mental health issues. Pollan shares compelling stories of individuals whose anxieties and attitudes toward death transformed through guided psychedelic sessions.

• Michael Pollan [17:45]: "Many of the ones I talked to had their faith renewed. They all had divine encounters."

Trevor Noah adds that psychedelics foster a connection to oneself, contrasting with alcohol's tendency to disconnect individuals from their inner selves.

• Trevor Noah [36:32]: "Alcohol disconnects you from yourself, and psychedelics connect you to yourself."

Pollan discusses the role of psychedelics in enhancing neuroplasticity, thereby helping individuals break free from entrenched patterns of thought and behavior.

• Michael Pollan [27:41]: "They can help you break out of habits of thinking and habits of behavior that you're stuck in."

---

Addressing Societal Issues: Can Psychedelics Treat Racism?

A pivotal moment arises when Christiana Mbakwe inquiries about the potential of psychedelics in addressing deep-seated societal issues like racism and homophobia.

• Christiana Mbakwe [28:34]: "Can it be used to treat racism?"

Michael Pollan responds thoughtfully, acknowledging the hypothesis but noting the need for empirical studies. He suggests that psychedelics could foster feelings of interconnectedness and empathy, which are crucial in combating prejudices.

• Michael Pollan [29:00]: "Racism is a habit of thought. It stands to reason that psychedelics could help."

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Challenges and Concerns: Accessibility and Cultural Appropriation

The discussion touches upon the accessibility of psychedelic therapies, highlighting the high costs and the potential for socioeconomic disparities in access.

• Christiana Mbakwe [35:19]: "It's very expensive. And it's very expensive... people have made it a little like glamping."

Pollan emphasizes the importance of preserving indigenous wisdom in the use of psychedelics and warns against the pitfalls of commercialization and cultural appropriation.

• Michael Pollan [32:00]: "We failed by not paying attention to the wisdom of indigenous cultures."

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Government Regulation and Pharmaceutical Interests

Trevor Noah introduces a critical perspective on government regulation, positing a conspiracy theory that pharmaceutical interests may monopolize psychedelic therapies, making them unaffordable and inaccessible to the general populace.

• Trevor Noah [40:20]: "Governments won't legalize or fully accept these substances until Big Pharma figures out how to synthesize them."

Pollan agrees, pointing out the challenges the FDA faces in regulating psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy, which inherently involves a therapeutic component beyond mere drug administration.

• Michael Pollan [32:45]: "The FDA is totally stumped by the idea of what really should be called psychedelic assisted psychotherapy."

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Psychedelics as Cultural Mutagens and Creative Catalysts

Pollan and Noah explore the role of psychedelics in fostering creativity and cultural innovation, citing examples like The Beatles and Steve Jobs, who credited psychedelics for their creative breakthroughs.

• Michael Pollan [58:56]: "They're cultural mutagens. Right. They're like... The Beatles without psychedelics."

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Ethical and Societal Implications

Christiana Mbakwe raises ethical concerns about societal changes driven by psychedelics, questioning whether a world with widespread psychedelic use could lead to a loss of striving and ambition.

• Christiana Mbakwe [53:39]: "I'm not comfortable with a society where there's no yearning and profound brokenness for people to keep striving."

Michael Pollan responds by advocating for a balance between mitigating trauma and addressing its root causes, emphasizing that psychedelics are not a panacea but a tool within a broader societal framework.

• Michael Pollan [56:53]: "Being able to treat people who have been traumatized does not in any way diminish the need to address the causes of it."

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Conclusion: Balancing Benefits and Risks

The episode concludes with a mutual understanding of the transformative potential of psychedelics, tempered by cautious consideration of their risks and societal implications. Pollan and Noah agree that while psychedelics can catalyze personal and societal change, they must be approached thoughtfully, respecting both their power and their origins.

• Michael Pollan [60:25]: "What psychedelics do is they kind of smudge the windshield and you realize, oh, there's a windshield there."

• Trevor Noah [60:53]: "I'm gonna try pitch that [psychedelics in global leadership]. Michael, thank you so much."

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Notable Quotes:

1. Trevor Noah [07:00]: "Drugs disconnect you from yourself, and psychedelics connect you to yourself."
2. Michael Pollan [09:31]: "I find when people read, they do become more open."
3. Michael Pollan [11:22]: "There's no recorded lethal dose. That's quite remarkable."
4. Christiana Mbakwe [28:34]: "Can it be used to treat racism?"
5. Michael Pollan [29:00]: "Racism is a habit of thought. It stands to reason that psychedelics could help."
6. Michael Pollan [58:56]: "They're cultural mutagens. Right. They're like... The Beatles without psychedelics."
7. Michael Pollan [60:25]: "What psychedelics do is they kind of smudge the windshield and you realize, oh, there's a windshield there."

---

Key Takeaways:

• Balancing Act: Psychedelics hold significant therapeutic potential but come with inherent risks that necessitate careful management.
• Societal Transformation: Beyond individual benefits, psychedelics may influence broader societal issues, including racism, though empirical research is needed.
• Cultural Sensitivity: Respecting indigenous knowledge and preventing cultural appropriation are crucial in the resurgence of psychedelic use.
• Accessibility Concerns: There is a pressing need to ensure equitable access to psychedelic therapies to prevent socioeconomic disparities.
• Government and Pharma Dynamics: The interplay between government regulation and pharmaceutical interests will shape the future landscape of psychedelic therapies.
• Creativity and Innovation: Psychedelics have historically played a role in fostering creativity and could continue to drive cultural and technological innovation.

---

Conclusion: In "Tripping Past Your Ego with Michael Pollan," Trevor Noah navigates the complex terrain of psychedelics, exploring their profound impact on individual consciousness and societal structures. Through insightful dialogue with Michael Pollan and Christiana Mbakwe, the episode underscores the transformative power of psychedelics while advocating for responsible, culturally sensitive, and equitable approaches to their integration into modern society.

Transcript

[Trevor Noah]

If you're a rat in a lab and you use lsd, the experience that you have would probably be so all encompassing that you cannot fathom using it again. You're in a lab, you're in a Imagine there are these giant monkeys making you walk through mazes. And now you take LSD for the first time and you're like, what does maze mean? Like, where am I going? Why do I like cheese so much? What is it that drives me? And now you're seeing the universe for the first time. You're thinking about cats in a completely different way. If I was a rat in a lab, I'd be like, I don't know, I need to chill on this. I just need to think about my life a little bit more. This is what now with Trevor Noah. This message is a paid partnership with Apple Card. The holidays are almost here and who doesn't love getting a little back? This season I can earn up to 3% daily cash back on presents I buy for my loved ones with my Apple Card without paying a single fee. It's simple and convenient because it's in the wallet app on my iPhone, so it's always with me. And because everything I need is in one place, it's easy to see what I've spent and make a payment. So if you have an iPhone, you can apply for an Apple Card and start using it right away. It's easy. Subject to credit approval. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.74% to 28.99% based on creditworthiness rates as of October 1, 2024. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch Member FDIC terms and [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. You want to run a successful business? Well, get ready to put in the work. Because no matter what your company does, no matter how big or small it is, it takes a lot of effort. Just look at what it takes to create even one episode of this podcast. We have to plan. We coordinate with guests, we find time to sit down and record, we have to edit, we have to market, and so much more. Now, of course, it helps to have a good team, but even finding the people for your team is a challenge because that's extra work you need to do on top of everything else you're already doing. And when you need to fill a role right away, it can feel impossible. Thankfully, there's a place you can go for help. ZipRecruiter. It does the work for you to make hiring fast and easy. The reason it works so quickly is because ZipRecruiter has amazing matching technology. Immediately after you post your job, it finds and sends you top candidates for your role so you can get back to running your business experience faster. Easier hiring with ZipRecruiter try it free at ZipRecruiter.com Trevor that's ZipRecruiter.com Trevor this episode is brought to you by Atlassian. Atlassian team collaboration software like Jira, Confluence and Loom help power collaboration for enterprise companies around the globe. With products that enable AI powered teamwork. Doing the impossible just became possible. So join the 83% of the Fortune 500 that trust Atlassian to help transform their enterprise. Learn how to unleash the potential of your [e-mail] do you think this could be the first topic where we don't agree at all?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yes. Which has made me like afraid.

[Trevor Noah]

Huh?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah. Because normally there's some overlap or I can even see where you're coming from.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, you don't even think you'll be okay. But wait, wait, wait. So help me understand this.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

We say we're going to have a topic, we're going to have a conversation, we're going to be speaking to Michael Pollan. He has single handedly changed the perception of, I mean like millions and millions of people when it comes to psychedelics. And it's not only psychedelics. You know, he wrote the Omnivores Dilemma, this is yous Mind on Plants, how to change your Mind. And he's written beautiful accounts of how we see the world of what we take. One of my favorite books of his just even talks about how we see coffee versus how we see something like taking mushrooms or marijuana. And he goes, you know, coffee, it's just, it's a drug that has suited the establishment and so that's why it's allowed to stay around. So he's explored everything. But it's interesting how now and we'll talk to him a little bit about it is it's like now he has become the de facto go to guy on mushrooms. He's the guru Psychedelics. And you know, and yes, it's funny you say he's the guru, but he's not even trying to present himself as a guru.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

He's like, no, he's not.

[Trevor Noah]

He's like, guys, I'm a journalist, I'm just a guy. He's like, I'm a journalist.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

You're the chosen one.

[Trevor Noah]

Everyone's like, you are the guru. Where do I score myself some dope? Shrooms. Yeah. But it's funny you. I've never seen you recoil like this.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I know. I know. And I've been thinking about it. Even I may have prayed about it. Oh, wow. Yeah. Cause I was just like. I don't want people at home to think, like, I'm like this. Lock them up conservatives about people that do recreational drugs.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

But I may be a little bit.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

No, I think it just. It brings up some stuff for me.

[Trevor Noah]

Is this because of your upbringing? Cause for me, like, I think about growing up and my perception of drugs. So I didn't touch weed. My whole. Okay, so I'll even take it before even, like, drugs, drugs. My mom doesn't drink. My mom doesn't smoke. My dad doesn't drink. My dad doesn't smoke. All right. So I grew up in a home where that wasn't a thing. My grandmother, et cetera. And my mom said to me, when I was 13, 12, 13, maybe even younger, she came to my room and she had cigarettes and she had beer. And she said to me, do you want. And I was like, oh, this is a trap. Obviously, this is a trap. And I was almost disappointed. And I was like, come on, lady. I'm not gonna fall for a trap like that. You're gonna come into my room and offer me cigarettes. And she was like, do you wanna try them? And I was like, no, because these are bad things and we should never. And then she said to me, listen, you're going to. You're going to encounter alcohol. You're going to encounter cigarettes and things. So if you're going to use it, I would rather know that you use it and then you use it at home.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And then I don't worry that now you're out in the world using it, you know, hiding it from me, and then getting into situations where you can't share that you're using it.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Harm reduction.

[Trevor Noah]

Exactly.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

It's amazing.

[Trevor Noah]

Which is wild. I mean, my mom is. My mom is, like, super religious and super strict and super, very progressive. Yeah. And so then she didn't even know how to, like, light a cigarette. So we had to go to an uncle of mine. And then he was like, trevor, what's up? And she said, he wants to try cigarettes. And the guy was like, okay, we want to smoke. And he gave us the cigarettes. And I puffed with him. And I was like, this is trash. This is. So I was like, how is the taste in your mouth? You know what I mean? It tastes like someone's like eating everything disgusting and then farting it into your oral cavity. And then the alcohol. Beer just tastes like old water that has, you know, dribbled down a sewer into it.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I'm a bad boy. I don't like, I don't like it.

[Trevor Noah]

So I didn't like any of that. And then drugs was almost in the.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Same category for me because of that initial experience.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Okay.

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

In fact, drugs, the way I grew up was, you are a loser. You are going to end your life. That's how I knew drugs.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

That hasn't changed now. That was just when you grow up.

[Trevor Noah]

That's how I knew drugs. That's all I was told. These are the things that will happen when you take drugs. So I didn't touch weed. I smoked weed for the first time when I was 21.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

That's how, like anti drug. I used to judge people and I would look at them and I would say to them, it is a pity that you've chosen to do this with your life. I used to say that to my cousin. So I, I can see where you might come from.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Okay. Yeah. I think it's all of those things and a bit more.

[Michael Pollan]

All right.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

But yeah, I, I just.

[Trevor Noah]

Are you open to a conversation about it?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I'm open to a conversation. And I think the thing that bothers me about this, I'm sad, I'm not nuanced. Cause I pride myself on being like gray area nuance. Both side is immo. Yes. And on this I'm like, ah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay. So, yeah, the African mom has finally arrived.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

The African mom has just emerged and is just here. But. And the more I seem to read, the deeper I go in to know. That's why I'm really curious about today's police station.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, that's an interesting one, Michael. Welcome to the podcast. But like, let me ask you this. Do you think or do you find that people become more open to the idea of exploring even the idea of psychedelics when they read, or do you find that people become more closed off?

[Michael Pollan]

I find when people read, they do become more open. There are a couple things that make people more open. And by the way, Christiana, I'm not going to advocate you do anything and.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm going to advocate for that.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

That's what Trevor's here for.

[Michael Pollan]

I'm going to advocate it's perfectly okay not to do these drugs. When I started talking about this right when my book came out and I was talking to various groups of people. And I would notice when I spoke in positive terms about psychedelics, I found that unless I started talking about risk right at the beginning, there was always a person or two in the room before I said anything more about it. This person would not open her ears. So I learned in my conversations where I'm. I was trying to get a hearing for what have turned out to be some therapeutically really important substances. And the key was, let's talk about risk right at the beginning. Can you get addicted to these substances? Can you overdose on these substances? Because I. I came very my. I. I didn't use a psychedelic till I was in my late 50s. I was somebody who, you know, with a family who. And. And lots of responsibilities. And I did a lot of investigation, well, how dangerous are these things? Right? And I found that on the classical psychedelics, and it's important to define what we're talking about. Lsd, mushrooms or psilocybin, dmt, but not Ketamine and not mdma. These are not technically psychedelics. There is no recorded lethal dose. That's quite remarkable because you have drugs in your medicine cabinet. If you have Tylenol, that is lethal at about 17 pills.

[Trevor Noah]

But before we get into that, before we get into that, Michael, I love the idea of speaking about risk first. And I've actually seen you do this in more than one setting. My favorite encounter with Michael and watching this in real life was we were at an event where it was myself, Michael, and then Oprah Winfrey, Gayle King, and Ava DuVernay. And we all. This is like a weird, motley crew of people who found themselves around a table. And I don't know if it was Oprah or Ava who starts off and says, wait, you're the mushroom guy. You know, And I'm like, oh, yeah, mushroom is amazing. This whole thing do you know? And I'll never forget, like, the more I was speaking, I thought I was convincing people. Oprah's face got more and more concerned. Gail looked at me with more and more compassion. You know how Gayle is like. Gail looked at me like, oh, Trevor, do we need to call somebody? And Ava looked like the cops were about to swarm in. And it was interesting to watch because when Michael started speaking, the first thing you spoke about was risk. The first thing you talked about was, hey, you cannot guarantee any outcome. You've got to be worried about your physical. You know, the physical aspect. You've got. And I watched them slowly turn their bodies from the outside of a conversation back to the inside of the Conversation. And so maybe we can talk a little bit about that aspect. So what are the risks then? Like, if. If you cannot. If you cannot overdose, what are like for somebody like Christiana who's going like this? You guys are putting yourself at so much risk. What. What are the actual risks?

[Michael Pollan]

Well, if you use. If you put LSD in one of those classic setups with a rat given two levers to press, you know, and it administers a drug to its veins with amphetamines, cocaine, they will press that lever until they're addicted and they die. If you put LSD in that setup, they'll try it once and never again.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, wow.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

That doesn't sound like an endorsement.

[Michael Pollan]

No, it's not.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I mean, it's like, no, thanks.

[Michael Pollan]

Well, I mean, imagine being a rat and trying to interpret what's going on. We don't know what kind of experience they have. There's actually a study underway to try to figure out if rats and mice have the sort of mental, you know, hallucinations. All we know now is they head twitch when they take lsd, and that's not very useful for research. So those are. So no risk of addiction. Yeah, no risk of overdose. The risks are of a psychotic break. I mean, there are people who have a psychotic experience. Sometimes it's just. It looks like a psychotic experience, and it's just a panic attack. There's a wonderful story that Dr. Andrew Weil tells about working in the Haight Ashbury free clinic in 1968 as a young, newly minted doctor who had had a lot of experience with psychedelics. And the doctors were all saying, people are coming in, you know, having LSD induced psychosis.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Michael Pollan]

And he goes into a little examining room and there's somebody who's absolutely flipping out. And he takes a few notes, and then he says, will you excuse me? There's someone in real trouble in the next room. And as soon as he said that, this person realized, wow, I'm not so fucked up as I thought I was. There's somebody more fucked up than me. And they were fine. So he understood what was going on in a way that the other doctors didn't. But people do flip out. And these experiences can be mitigated, I think, if you're. If you work with a guide. I mean, someone who's with you to talk you down when this kind of thing happens. But without question, the bad trip is real, and it can be absolutely terrifying. And that, you know, as Trevor said earlier, the effects cannot be predicted. There's a. There's a kind of a physiological signature to alcohol or cocaine. That's not true with psychedelics. Everybody has their own experience, and a lot of it depends, as Timothy Leary famously said on set and setting, that you've got to be in the right mindset, and you need to be in a very safe setting where you're not worried about the FedEx driver coming to the door or a call from your mother.

[Trevor Noah]

Michael, let me ask you this. I distinctly remember, and it's purely anecdotal, how the conversation around weed, cannabis, marijuana, whatever you want to call it, changed when white American moms started smoking it. All of a sudden, America was like, actually, maybe it's not so bad. Tell me more, Snoop Doggy Dog. You know what I mean? It started changing.

[Michael Pollan]

Well, how to change your mind? My book about it was in 2018, and at that point, there were lots of people who were using psychedelics but would never talk about it publicly. And one of the things that's happened is that. That taboo. And none of the scientists would ever admit to ever having had an experience on the record. They would off the record, which was hard for me. But everything changed in the few years after that, and it became acceptable for people to talk about their use. But I think the big thing is the taboo, you know, has. Has lifted the way it did with cannabis. Right. It was. It was moms doing it. But what happened first was. And this was the activists did this. They rebranded cannabis from Cheech and Chong.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Goofy.

[Michael Pollan]

To medicine for AIDS patients and people with wasting syndrome and things like that. And remember, we started with medical marijuana, and that changed the image. And it may be the same thing is happening with psychedelics, which are getting a lot of attention as a therapeutic aid. But, you know, as one of my sources put it, they're very important for the betterment of, well, people also, not just people who are ill. Yeah. So so far, though, the path that they're on, I think, is there two paths, really? There's a medical path that we've talked about. There's also a spiritual path there. There are a lot of people who are interested in religion. There was a really interesting study that hasn't been published yet that I'm wr, where religious leaders in, like, 13 different faiths were given a high dose of psilocybin to see what insight they might have on the religious visions they had and the mystical experience.

[Trevor Noah]

And what did they find?

[Michael Pollan]

Well, a lot of these people were burnt out before. You're working with the dying and people at really hard Times in their lives and congregations are shrinking. And many of the ones I talked to were. Had their faith renewed. They all had divine encounters except for a Buddhist. So that's. It's kind of what you'd expect. The Buddhist. The Buddhist said. When I interviewed her, she's a Buddhist priest, and she said, I traveled to a realm beyond concept for which there are no words.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, I love that.

[Michael Pollan]

It was a very short interview. There was nowhere to go from there. But others had a. They were really surprised that the divine didn't always conform to their faith. And in many cases, I think the majority, the divine, was feminine, and that blew some of their minds.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I love that God is a woman. I can get behind.

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah, God is a woman.

[Trevor Noah]

So now we've got her. Now we've got her. What's. What. Okay, wait. So what's. What's the thing you're most like when you. When you think about it? What?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

You know, it's so funny. I was going to say, what's the.

[Trevor Noah]

Scariest thing you think of?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

What scares me? The benefit.

[Trevor Noah]

Wait, what?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah, everything I read about, about the good. And I'd love Michael to go through the benefits first, and then I'll explain why I found it profoundly terrifying.

[Trevor Noah]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I thought you were gonna be like.

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah, this is interesting.

[Trevor Noah]

Wait, I thought you were gonna tell me that you're afraid of.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah, but all of that stuff also exists with alcohol, which I think if it was invented today, we probably wouldn't sell it so freely. Do you know what I mean? Like, all of that stuff exists with other substances, but psychedelics. For me, the more I read, it was the benefits that was like, this is some cultist scary shit and people should just be Pentecostals. But, Michael, I want you to talk through the benefits. Particularly what did take me was end of life care.

[Michael Pollan]

This was the most moving work that I saw getting done, which was people with cancer diagnoses, many of them terminal, having a guided psychedelic session. This happened at NYU in New York and at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore. And I interviewed a lot of these people, and they had their whole attitude toward death and their anxiety changed. Some had the experience of. Developed a confidence that something would happen to their consciousness after they died. Other people had incredibly naturalistic scenarios in their head about what would happen. I remember one woman describing that she'd been flying all over the world and then went into the ground and was kind of disaggregated, and her molecules were taken up by plants.

[Trevor Noah]

Wow.

[Michael Pollan]

And she. Now this is not a supernatural idea. This actually happens, right?

[Trevor Noah]

Yes, yeah, but, but to feel it.

[Michael Pollan]

I mean, but she felt it and she identified with it and she identified with something beyond her ego that made it easier to think about her death, that we are all interconnected and that in some way she would go on and yes, her ego would not, but that was okay. And this experience of what's called ego dissolution, of feeling that you're yourself has kind of been, I mean, I had, I, I describe in the, in the book this experience of seeing myself explode into a cloud of blue post it notes which then flutter to the ground and form this pool of thick blue paint. And I'm, from some new perspective, I'm observing this and I was like, okay, this is perfectly fine. That's okay being a puddle of blue paint. I don't have a problem with that. But what happens when your ego dissolves is that the barrier, your ego is a wall. It's a defensive structure. Right. And when the walls come down, there's nothing separating you from whatever is out there.

[Trevor Noah]

We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. This episode is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. Travel is all about learning and experiencing things in a new, exciting way. But you could get even more from your travels. With the Chase Sapphire reserve card, you can earn three times the points on travel purchases and receive a $300 travel credit. It also comes with plenty of other perks too, like access to Sapphire's airport lounge network. You can relax and refresh with locally inspired menus, a curated selection of drinks and more before getting on your flights. Make the most out of your next trip. Learn [e-mail] Sapphire Reserve cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank, NA member FDIC subject to credit approval terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Nordstrom Rack. Just in and so good. Thousands of new winter deals are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Save up to 60% on Sam Edelman, Sorrel Free People, Cole Haan and more. Cold weather finds, great brands, great prices. That's why you rack. I have friends who took psychedelics as atheists and then called me and said, I now believe in a God. I'm talking about the most skeptical. Just like calloused individuals, they go like, I die and nothing.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

It's straight up materialist.

[Trevor Noah]

You forget, you forget about this is stupid. And then they take psychedelics and they will say to me, look, I don't know what it's called. I don't know who made it or whether it made me or how it works or doesn't work, but I now know that it exists. And you see them develop a different connection with themselves and with this idea that goes beyond themselves. And I always wonder, actually, Michael, like, you know, we know that psychedelics affect. Or at least mushrooms in particular, affect our neuroplasticity, right? So essentially what it does is it interrupts your brain's ability to make assumptions about things, which is how the human brain needs to work.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah, right.

[Trevor Noah]

The reason a baby is enamored by a box is because their brain is constantly going like, whoa, what is this? And then at some point, you're like, it's a box. That's why when we, you know, when we have, like, cake, you know that. What's it called again? You know the trend. You guys know the trend I'm talking about?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

It's not cake. Yeah, yeah, but cake's not cake.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, but you know why that messes with us?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

It's not a pencil. Yes, but it's not cake.

[Michael Pollan]

Okay.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

So one of the reasons that messes with us and mesmerizes us so much as adults is because it's sort of returning us back to being a baby. Babies are constantly living in a world of. Is it cake? You with me?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yes, I do.

[Trevor Noah]

So when you play peekaboo with a baby, when you cover your eyes, you know you're gone to them.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Right. So the baby's like, where did you go? And then you open your eyes.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

They're such idiots.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, exactly. But that's why they live in so much wonder. That's why they. They're like, wow, the world is so big.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

And I. Sorry, Trevor. This is, I think, part of my Objection. That shortcut to wonder.

[Trevor Noah]

No, but it's not necessarily about the wonder that I'm talking. I'm talking about the brain being interrupted in creating a fixed idea of what it is and what reality is or isn't. Right?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah, yeah, but meditation can do that.

[Trevor Noah]

You've never meditated so much that you thought something was cake.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Don't lie. Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

All right, everyone who tells me this, you're lying. Everyone.

[Michael Pollan]

Do you know what?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I come from a spiritual tradition where people really believe in the transcendent and the supernatural. Like, I was raised in a Pentecostal tradition where people speak in tongues, they fall on the floor. It's all of this somatic bodywork. They see visions all the time. Like, they have these out of body experiences constantly and they don't know shrooms.

[Trevor Noah]

Some of them say they have the experiences, but they don't necessarily.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I mean, they say it's still true. It's true to them.

[Trevor Noah]

I don't know. I'll be honest with you.

[Michael Pollan]

And it's true to people who take psychedelics, their insights in the same way. They're both subjective opinions that can't be proven. But the people having these. These religious experiences, you know, there is brain chemistry involved there, too.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Michael Pollan]

So that. So we're talking about, you know, chemicals produced by your own brain or chemicals introduced to your brain. That. That's the distinction. And I don't know, you know, how important a distinction that is, but I think that going back to what Trevor said, we don't really take in the world anymore as adults. Right. We have a set of predictions and beliefs. And so that's why we don't think about boxes. It's just a box, and it's just cake. And that we have stopped having the kind of, what's sometimes called lantern consciousness of children, where they take in information from everywhere and everything's, you know, awesome and wonderful. We have what's called spotlight consciousness, which is very useful for getting stuff done, but it gives you a kind of focus. And it's based on the world being as the world usually is. And so very little new information comes in. Our senses are only being used to correct the predictions that our minds are making. That's it. What psychedelics appear to do is short circuit that predictive machinery. And what that means is they can help you break out of habits of thinking and habits of behavior that you're stuck in, because you're predicting that, you know, I'm the kind of person who can't get through the day without a drink.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Michael Pollan]

This is a prediction about who you are and an identity you're stuck in. And the psychedelics Trevor mentioned, plasticity, they make the mind more plastic, and they essentially temporarily dissolve those habits of thought. And that's very useful for people struggling with addiction, for people struggling with eating disorders, people struggling with obsessive compulsive. I mean, these are all disorders where you're stuck in a loop and you have some habit of thought you can't break. And psychedelics appears to be able to help people break those habits.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I'm curious, can it. And this is a completely serious question, can it be used to treat racism? Because, like, that is a pattern. No, that is a. To me, that's. I mean, I know you're being serious. I'm being so serious.

[Trevor Noah]

No, I know you're being serious. That's maybe what makes it Funnier.

[Michael Pollan]

It's not a. It's not a ridiculous question.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

No, I'm like. That's what I'm like. All right, some people have anorexia. Some people have depression, but a lot of people have.

[Michael Pollan]

A lot of people have racism. Right.

[Trevor Noah]

Are you or your loved ones suffering from racism? Do you find yourself hating people because of the color of their skin?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Like racism, homophobia. These are real.

[Trevor Noah]

Like, consider shrooms. Talk to your doctor about shrooms.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I just. It's a serious question.

[Trevor Noah]

I like. It just. It caught me off guard.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Okay. Can it be used to treat racism? So homophobia, et cetera.

[Michael Pollan]

It's a hypothesis that needs to be tested. You know, they. They do change people's beliefs. There's a general belief that the direction of those changes are toward feeling more like other people. More connected to other people. Yeah, More connected to nature. Less tolerance for authoritarianism. I haven't seen a study looking at racial attitudes, but it stands to reason that if there is this very common feeling of, I love everybody, we're all one, you know, and so it's not out of the question. It would be very interesting to test. I mean, racism is a habit of thought. Right.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Because I actually thought about police officers. When you said that thing about, like, our minds making these predictions, I thought of, sure, we can look at these institutions as racist, and these are terrible people, but they are basing everything they do based on predictions and biases.

[Michael Pollan]

Exactly.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

But often that they can't help themselves. Like, to me, it's interesting if shrooms can unravel that, you know, in a way that I think words and even living in sometimes diverse environments cannot.

[Michael Pollan]

Well, you know, what happens with these experiences is that people begin to write new stories about who they are, about how the world works. But you need to be guided through it. The guide would talk to you about that after the experience to kind of solidify a new perception.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, I think actually that's one of the biggest misconceptions that I've seen around psychedelics, you know, particularly mushrooms, is people will go, you take this, and your life changes, and everything will never be the same. And it's perfect. And to. What Michael's saying is, I found that people who take mushrooms unintentionally or, like, without intention behind their action, don't have the same results. All they do is they experience a moment of joy. They experience a moment of feeling connected, but then they quickly settle back into all the old patterns because they've been around for so much longer. But the people who have a Guide or people who do what they call, like, reintegration. Those people spend more time in the liminal space that is thinking about what you're experiencing.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

And that's another reason I didn't like it.

[Trevor Noah]

Why?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Because, as I understand it, right, the roots of this stuff is indigenous medicine. Right. It belonged to a people before it was kind of codified. And it becomes this thing that academics and, you know, Hollywood elites and white liberals do.

[Trevor Noah]

I don't think it belonged to anyone. I think people were just taking it. Sure.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

But like, it's part of, like, indigenous plant medicine in a way that it's not connected to the white American experience. Am I wrong, Michael?

[Michael Pollan]

You're partly right and partly wrong.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I mean, there is. This is great, but like. No, go, go ahead.

[Michael Pollan]

Psilocybin. So. So some psychedelics have an indigenous history. Psilocybin is one. It was used in Mexico and Central America for thousands of years. Peyote, Native Americans and Mexicans for 6,000 years. But LSD, MDMA, you know, these are, these are creations of modern, you know, Western chemistry. I think that in general, the indigenous use of these substances has a lot to teach us and that. I think one of, one of the places we went wrong in the 60s was not paying attention to the wisdom of indigenous cultures. And we figured we could, you know, we could create a whole new context. And we failed. Mm.

[Trevor Noah]

Where are we seeing the biggest changes in the adoption of psychedelics or even the acceptance of them? Where are we seeing a thrust coming from a particular segment of society in America?

[Michael Pollan]

I think, you know, Silicon Valley has been a place where psychedelics are in widespread use. And these are the people who are, who are the philanthropists funding a lot of the studies that are going on. One interesting community that I've been working on, I'm writing a book about consciousness, and most of the philosophers and neuroscientists who are working on that issue are experimenting with psychedelics as an avenue of inquiry. You know, people who are completely brain centric, people who think, of course, consciousness emerges from the neurons, are having experiences of consciousness outside of the skull, and they're like. And they're having crises, you know, metaphysical crises. So that's. That's really interesting. I don't know how that'll. Where that'll go. One community that's really important in this space is veterans. It's. It's a community with, you know, high rates of trauma. What is it, 18 suicides a day in America among vets?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Michael Pollan]

And some of them are using it, you know, Often in groups, sometimes going down to Mexico or somewhere where it's legal or quasi legal, but that they're getting a lot of relief from trauma using a series of psychedelics. I think, you know, you have this interesting phenomenon of microdosing, which is very low risk, and many people do it. Christiana alluded to it earlier. Some people find it very helpful. We don't have a lot of science on it to say one way or another. It may be a placebo effect, but there's nothing wrong with a placebo effect. If it works, it works. And placebos are actually driving changes in your. In your mind. But that, I think, makes it very easy for people to enter into this world at, you know, low risk and potentially high reward. Um, and that seems to be in many, many different circles.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

So much to unpack here for me, because I do know part of my rejection of this is rooted in my own sense of ego. I will own that. And having a family with mental illness and addiction issues. So there's a lot of stuff around substances for me. And now we have this drug that is coming more into emergence that some people can afford a fancy guide.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Pollan]

And it is very expensive.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

And it's very expensive. And like, settings like, it sounds like this is something that could be hugely beneficial for people who don't have much money and can't afford a guide.

[Trevor Noah]

So, first of all, I want to go back to what you said about family and addiction and stuff. I, like, you have family members who have struggled with predominantly alcohol, you know, and that addiction, when you see it, is one of the worst things. It's one of the scariest experiences you'll have. That's why when I first encountered any semblance of something that was even considered a drug, I was like, oh, this is the escalation of that. I was like, if alcohol is 10% bad, drugs are 500% bad. That's how I thought. And then what I came to find is how these substances, these medicines, I would even call them, they do the opposite of alcohol. I always try and explain this to friends. I go, alcohol disconnects you from yourself, and psychedelics connect you to yourself. I've met very few people, if any, actually, who go, oh, yeah, I can't believe I did that. And I. No. Alcohol will always have a story that ends with, and then I crash the car and then I punch this person. Psychedelics does this. It's the strange. It's a strange different connection that connects people to themselves and who they actually wish to be. As Opposed to, like, who they've sort of become, you know?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

You know, it sounds so religious.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, it isn't. It is in many ways, but you know what I like about it is it's not easily manipulated by a religious figure.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Is that how it's felt for you when you've done psychedelics?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, that's exactly how it's felt. So I think in an optimistic world, in a future right now, it's expensive. There's guides. People have made it a little like, you know, like. What do they call it? Like, glamping?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah, glamping.

[Trevor Noah]

They've made it glamping right now. But I do think there'll be apps. I do think there'll be a democratization of the idea of a guide. I genuinely think it'll be very short before you'll have an AI guide on your phone.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

So dystopian.

[Trevor Noah]

No, I know it is in some ways, but can I tell you something? I actually think that that will be what opens it up to everyone in the right way. And I think that's gonna open it in the right way because to your point, Michael, when people have used psychedelics in the right settings, with the right company, with the right intention, I've witnessed people change their lives. I've seen people who couldn't build connections with their families. They had deep traumas that they've held their entire lives. And they couldn't. With all the talk therapy in the world, they couldn't let go of the feeling, you know, the feeling you have when somebody has traumatized you or when you've experienced trauma because of them or around them. I've witnessed people lose that. I've seen people shift so much of who they were to who they could be because of psychedelics. And when we live in a world where so many people do what they do because they're stuck in the idea of who they are, I think of how magical it could be to find ourselves in a place where it's not. First of all, it's not a pharmaceutically controlled thing. There's no. Like.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Trevor, don't you want to create a world where less people feel they need to escape reality because they're so depressed, anxious and traumatized? Like it feels like.

[Trevor Noah]

And that's what I'm saying. I don't know. I don't know if you agree, Michael.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

But I feel like psychedelics are kind of like a plaster over the mother wound or whatever it is.

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you know what?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

If we weren't in a capitalist housecape, right. And we had good houses.

[Trevor Noah]

I'll challenge you on this.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

And more people were healed. This is work of prison abolitionists. Right. Who are like, don't put him in prison. He just needs organic food and a nice house. Right.

[Michael Pollan]

No, no, no.

[Trevor Noah]

But. Okay, let me challenge you on this real quick. I think it is beautiful for us to think of, you know, psychedelics as a solve for what's happening now. And I think in many ways it can help with a lot of what society is going through. However, this has been as old as time. There will always be something that makes.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Time for human condition.

[Trevor Noah]

You're going to get eaten by a lion. That is going to traumatize you. Okay, well.

[Michael Pollan]

And don't forget death. I mean, you could have the perfect society. Yeah, but you're still going to have death.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

But that's very natural to me. Like.

[Michael Pollan]

Well, it's very natural, but it, but it makes people crazy.

[Trevor Noah]

It does.

[Michael Pollan]

I mean, it's, it's, you know, very disturbing to us. And we don't. We're not very good at processing it. And so I agree. I mean, the goal should be to remove causes of trauma, and that's a worthy goal. And being able to treat people who have been traumatized does not in any way diminish the need to address the causes of it. But it's going to happen. And so you do have to give some thought to how you treat people who've had this in terms of democratizing it. Yeah. You can, I guess, use technology and maybe AIs will turn out to be very good guides. But I think this is why there is so much energy on the part of researchers in this area to get FDA approval. I mean, that's really how you reach lots of people. And that's what we were hoping would happen with mdma, although that approval has been.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, actually, let's.

[Michael Pollan]

Delayed.

[Trevor Noah]

Let's talk a little bit about that. This is my conspiracy theory. I'll put it out there.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I love it.

[Trevor Noah]

There's a conspiracy theory. My conspiracy theory is that governments won't legalize or won't fully accept these medicines or these substances or whatever you want to call them. They won't formalize them until the pharmaceutical industry has figured out a way to synthesize them.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

And when they've learned how to synthesize them and sort of like corral what they do, they're going to sell synthetic versions of it to people at a marked up price that nobody can afford. Right. And then what they're going to do is they're Going to outlaw the stuff that people were just growing and being able to make and distribute themselves. That's my problem. Like, I'm sure there's some FDA approval. No, no, no, no, no. I'm saying they should just go like, hey, you can use it the same way they let you use alcohol, you know, because I think, you know, and Michael, I don't know if you. You have an opinion on it, but I. I just go, like, once it becomes a formalized medicine and they block out what it has been and can be for so many people, I think then we actually end up in a world where you can't get it now because you don't have health insurance or you don't have enough money to buy the medicine the official FDA approved. When the thing grows out of the ground, it's mushrooms. It's the most resilient thing ever, which.

[Michael Pollan]

Is why I think it'll be hard to control. I mean, I think that the means of production are so easily acquired by everyone. But I think you're right. I mean, we saw if you compare what happened with mdma, whose approval was rejected by the fda, to the approval of Spravato or S. Ketamine. This is a form of ketamine approved for depression. It's a nasal inhaler. They had to do three phase three tests before they got one that showed it worked at all. Wow. And yet it got through. Why? Because it had big pharma behind it, and it was also a drug that could be administered without any therapy. The FDA is totally stumped by the idea of what really should be called psychedelic assisted psychotherapy because you can't remove the therapeutic component. It really is. It's important to its effectiveness. It's as important to its safety. It mitigates the chances of bad experiences and helps people consolidate what they've learned. And the FDA is not equipped to regulate therapies, so they kind of threw up their hands. But when the business model is figured out, and it hasn't been yet for any of these substances, then Big Pharma will get involved. And then the sort of scenario that Trevor's describing, I'm afraid, could well come to pass.

[Trevor Noah]

Don't go anywhere, because we got more. What now? After this. This episode is brought to you by Survey Monkey. The world is always changing and totally unpredictable, which is fun, unless you're trying to run a business. So if you want to build a product people actually love, keep your customers happy, and stop your team from setting their status to emotionally unavailable, well, you've got to understand what people are really thinking. And to do that, you need to dare to ask the questions that really matter. Luckily, SurveyMonkey makes it super easy to ask the right questions that will drive your business forward. In fact, SurveyMonkey answers 20 million questions every single day for over 300,000 organizations around the globe. Get answers to your Questions go to surveymonkey.com dare this episode is brought to you by Brooklinen. So as you start getting ready for friends and family visiting, maybe you should be thinking about giving your guest room a little upgrade. Personally, I've been using Brooklinen for a while now and I'll tell you, these sheets are made to be lived in. They're soft, durable.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Ooh.

[Trevor Noah]

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[Christiana Mbakwe]

I fit a profile of a person who's typically anti psychedelics and that's a mother who has young children at home. And I guess like my kids hit 10, 11, 12, 13, 14. Exploration is just a normal part of adolescence. If it was sex, I'd be like, here's some condoms, you know, you know, like everything out. And I'm like, with what we know about how adolescent brains are, their fragility, but also their, their ability to change so quickly. How does a parent discuss this with their 15 year old, 16 year old kid who's interested and who's probably gonna try it? Is there a safe way for them to do it? Or they need to kind of be like Ronald Reagan over here me and just say don't do anything and stay in your room. Like, and I'm just curious about what the conversations around shrooms looks like for parents to their children. And is it even appropriate for like I don't mind my 15 year old smoking some weed, but like when you Say they're going on a journey and they may see vampires. I'm like, no, no, no. You know, so, Michael. Yeah, a long way.

[Michael Pollan]

You know, I. I didn't have to deal with this. My son, by the time I got interested, my son was, you know, well into his 20s, I think, and he had a couple experiences with.

[Trevor Noah]

Before you or after you got into it?

[Michael Pollan]

Before me.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, okay, okay.

[Michael Pollan]

And, you know, I mean this. I'll tell you very quickly what would happen because it gives you some sense of what can go wrong. And a friend went up to Tilden park, which is the. In the park above Berkeley where we live. They drove up there in our car, I should say. They took mushrooms. And his friend became convinced that his arm was falling off. And it was. It was about to fall off. And my son could not persuade him that his arm was well attached and it wasn't a problem. They were in, I think, high school, early high school. And, you know, this became a freak out. And they get to a parking lot and my son finds a sympathetic woman there and says, can you help us? My son, my friend thinks his arm is falling off. Can you drive us to his pediatrician's office? And that's what they did. And she was able to assure him, in a way my son couldn't, that his arm was not falling off and his arm was well attached and there was nothing to worry about and they got through it. But my concern in that narrative is the car, is the involvement of the car, as it would be if he were using alcohol, I think. And some people would disagree with me about this, but in general, you're talking about chemicals that mess with your ego. And it seems to me, until you've fully developed your ego, that might not be a good idea. And that, you know, kids and boys in particular are still developing into their early twenties, and it seems like that might not be the best time to do it. I see psychedelics as kind of a rite of passage. And cultures are always very specific about who's eligible for a rite of passage.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Michael Pollan]

And I would say a 13 year old. Not. Not ready.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

No. I love that framing, though, right. Of passage.

[Trevor Noah]

No, I love that. So it's funny you say that. I. So I remember talking to my. My youngest brother about it, and he is 20, and we had this whole conversation. He was like, you know, what is this thing about? Cause he knows me, we've grown up in the same household, you know, and so I said to my youngest brother, I said, you know, the biggest reason I would say to you, you shouldn't. And this is why I'll say to any young person, why you shouldn't do mushrooms is because it will not give you. Other than, like, oh, hallucinations and what I mean, but it won't give you the thing that is so important for, like, older people to get from it. And that is a loosening of how you see the world. Young people already have a loose view of the world. That's why they're the ones who start revolutions and they protest for different ideas and they.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Tech companies. Yeah, no, it's true.

[Trevor Noah]

It's all the young who think this could be different. And so I said to him, I was like, your brain is already so fantastically plastic. Why not keep that? Keep that until you find that you're stuck. And I tell this to anyone. I go, you can use mushrooms for fun. But I go, if you can use it when you're stuck, you're stuck in alcoholism. You're stuck in love and in relationships, and you can't figure out how to break your patterns. You're stuck in how you see the world. You're stuck in whatever it is. That's when I would say to somebody, try, Jesus. No, try.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

It's like they're so interchangeable to me.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay, I'll say this as somebody who has done Jesus and I've done mushrooms. I've done both. I've done Jesus and I've done mushrooms. Jesus is amazing. Jesus is the way, the truth and the light.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Trevor's like, my mom's listening.

[Trevor Noah]

Jesus is the way, the truth and the light. Don't get me wrong, but I always say, and I always talk to my mom about this. I go, don't forget, Jesus made wine when the party needed wine. So even Jesus knew that sometimes people need a little something something. You know what I mean?

[Michael Pollan]

And by the way, that wine was not just wine. I mean, there's a lot of evidence that the early communion wine was spiked.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, wow.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Are you serious?

[Michael Pollan]

Oh, yeah. Completely serious. So there's a. They're archeologists that specialize in chemistry, and they've been looking at early communion cups, and they found one in Spain that had residues of ergot, which is the fungus from which LSD was derived.

[Trevor Noah]

No way.

[Michael Pollan]

And I know, I know. So there is a theory, and it needs a lot more research and proof. There's a good book on this called the Immortality Key by Brian Morescue. And. But that there is some reason to believe that there was another drug in the communion cups. And they Were trying to give people, as you know, the Native Americans had done and many other research, a big experience. And what we have left is, you know, this kind of Manischewitz wine that's, you know, nothing special, but. But once upon a time, it apparently had a real kick.

[Trevor Noah]

I think what I. What I. What I don't like is how. I've seen how presidential advisers during the Nixon era and, you know, during the Vietnam War and all of that, they specifically set out to target these psychedelics.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Because they felt they undermined what America was trying to be. And what was America trying to be at that time? A place where it fights wars, it bombs other countries, it gets their resources, and it makes people clamor for those resources in their lives. And they found when people started using these psychedelics, they didn't care about being a manager. They didn't care about getting more money than the person around them. They didn't care as much. They cared about other people. They wanted other people to eat.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And this, they felt, undermined what the American dream was built for.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

And I get the US Government in that, because I'm someone.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I'm someone that loves order. Like, I'm an order of freedom type of person.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes. But what I'm saying is you're conflating.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

People opening their consciousness. No, no, no. But close it.

[Trevor Noah]

Close it ironically. Ironically. That's where I think, like, the indoctrination has worked. They've tricked people into believing that there is only one way to have order.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you get what I'm saying? They've tricked people into believing that the only way we can live in a civilized society is if everybody goes to an office and everybody tries to make as much money as possible and everybody screws each other over. That's order. But when it's ancient tribes, you know, whether it was Native Americans, whether it was, you know, in South America, whether it was in Africa, they had order.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And this was a tool that they used, ironically, to maintain that order.

[Michael Pollan]

Because when you did maintain that order.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, that's right. Because when people are stuck, that's when there's disorder, for sure. You know, this is when people now, they break, they fight, they hurt each other. That's the thing that actually brings the order back. Because you go like, oh, yeah, I'm part of something. I'm not alone in this thing. We're all part of something.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah. I think that's my problem. I'm not comfortable with a society where there's no yearning and, like, profound brokenness. For people to keep striving.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, but striving for what? No, but striving for what?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Striving for just like this being their best, which is effort, actually.

[Trevor Noah]

Actually. So no, no, I'm the best artist. So I'm going to ask Michael about this, but.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Okay, you know what I'm talking about, right?

[Trevor Noah]

Yes. I would love to know, Michael from your side because look at you. You are one of the most accomplished writers. Did you find that you didn't have a yearning after taking psychedelics or how did it affect your perception of what to yearn for?

[Michael Pollan]

Well, you know, one of the things about psychedelics is you don't immediately want to do them again. It's kind of overwhelming.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Michael Pollan]

And that's why they're not habit forming. I think it's like that's why the.

[Trevor Noah]

Cartel doesn't sell mushrooms.

[Michael Pollan]

Yeah, there's no money in it. These are. I mean, even. Even when these things are used in treatment modality, it's one or two pills or experiences. That's it. You know, and the pharmaceutical model is based on taking the same pill every day for the rest of your life. But without question, they're very disruptive. You know, they're. They're. So every society has drugs, right? I mean, it's just a given that humans change consciousness. It's one of the things we do. Children do it when they get dizzy. We're just not satisfied with everyday normal consciousness for whatever reason. We have caffeine, we don't even think about that as a drug, but it's a very powerful drug. It happens to be a drug that makes us fit even more smoothly into the machinery of the capitalist order. It makes us very good workers. And that's why their coffee breaks. Right? I mean, think about it. Your employer gives you free drugs and time to use them twice a day.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, that's amazing.

[Michael Pollan]

So and then there's alcohol, which kind of numbs people to a miserable life, although they can get into trouble with it. And there's cigarettes that actually help. Help make people better workers in various ways. And then there are drugs that disrupt the whole system. And psychedelics in the Western context in the 60s were definitely that. There's a famous quote from President Nixon that his domestic policy advisor John Ehrlichman gave to a journalist. But basically Ehrlichman said, yeah, the drug war, which Nixon starts in 1970, that wasn't about public health, that was all about politics. Nixon's great enemies were hippies and black people.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Michael Pollan]

And by making LSD illegal He could disrupt the hippie community. And by making marijuana illegal, he could disrupt the black community. So we have to understand that which drugs are illegal, which ones are not, is always changing. And it depends on the nature of the drug, but also the nature of the society. What's happening with psychedelics now is it's undergoing a transformation itself from being this very disruptive force to potentially being something that could help people deal with various mental health issues. That's the story that hasn't been completely written yet, whether our society can make peace with these incredibly powerful and disruptive molecules. And the answer, the jury is still out.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, I don't think. I mean, I'm biased, but I'm biased because of the writing, the people I've met, the research. I don't think it does. You know, to what Michael just said. It may interrupt people's yearning to be part of a system that has failed so many.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yes, I agree.

[Trevor Noah]

I can agree with that. But look at what it's done to the world. Do you know what I mean?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Like, we're bombing other countries because we want the black goo that's underneath them. And then we'll bomb another country because we want that thing or we feel like we need that and all of that yearning. I don't mind if some of that goes down because I think people will have a different kind of yearning and I think that'll broaden us out again as people. Do you get what I'm saying?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I completely feel you. Like, I know that a lot of my objection is on one hand, indoctrination.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

And then it's just like being a mother is fear.

[Trevor Noah]

Of course. No, yeah, that I understand.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

You know, it's just like it's this loosening or this loss of yearning or happening all that terrified. I couldn't even live through 2020. That was. We just had to be in our rooms and black people were like, we want a few more rights. And I was like, what's going on here? Like, it was just like it was any sort of upheaval. I guess it's the British in me. We never really had a revolution. And it's just like.

[Trevor Noah]

No, that's true.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

It's just like come from societies are all about order and hierarchy. And there's a king, there's a queen, and if you're Nigerian, you have a chief. Do you know what I mean? And so I like, there's a lot of fear on the other side of it and the ego, even if not something that I should. Because I think that even though I'm like, this isn't for me, there could be someone else in my life that's like, I could say, you know what? You should try microdosing. This could help.

[Michael Pollan]

Well, exactly. Or, I mean, even if I never wanted to use these substances again, I think I'd want to live in a world where other people were.

[Trevor Noah]

I like that.

[Michael Pollan]

Some other people.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Michael Pollan]

Because, you know, what we're doing is. I mean, there's. We haven't talked about creativity. And, you know, some people get great ideas on psychedelics. They're cultural mutagens. Right. They're like.

[Trevor Noah]

I mean, the Beatles. We don't have the Beatles without psychedelics.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Ringo Starr was the worst drummer to probably ever live.

[Trevor Noah]

Hot take.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Whoa. I think we're doing okay. Wow.

[Trevor Noah]

Hot take.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Terrible at keeping inspired. But anyway, sorry.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes. Michael.

[Michael Pollan]

Or Steve Jobs. Right. Who credited his creative vision to lsd. I mean, I think that you want to have a lot of different kinds of people in your world, in your culture, and some of them are exploring frontiers of knowledge or frontiers of the self and interiority, and some are not. And it's not for everybody. But I think that it's, on balance, a good thing they exist and the fact that people can achieve these states of consciousness which may benefit all of us.

[Trevor Noah]

I love that. Michael, thank you. Thank you for joining us. You know. You know me, I could talk to you for hours and hours about this because I do believe, not that this is the solve for everything, but rather that there are many people who are stuck in their lives. And when you can start to unlock that in people, you just change. You know how people. When you change how you see the world, you change how you be in that world.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And I don't know.

[Michael Pollan]

And the fact that you have a way of seeing the world we're not even aware of. We're not aware of this windshield of consciousness. Right.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Michael Pollan]

And what psychedelics do is they kind of smudge the windshield and you realize, oh, shit, there's a windshield there.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. In fact, why is it that way?

[Michael Pollan]

Could it be another way?

[Trevor Noah]

I would argue world leaders should be doing psychedelics. Like, you see the UN one day at the un, everybody should have to take psychedelics, and they should all get guided, and then you can start. You can only start negotiating about how the world should be when you are fully able to see the world through multiple lenses. That's what I believe. So, Michael, I'm gonna try pitch. I'm gonna pitch that. And you.

[Michael Pollan]

I like that you're gonna Come in. You're in general assembly.

[Trevor Noah]

Let's do it. We're gonna do it like the communion. We're just gonna spike all the water that's in front of them, and then we start. We start guiding them from the front. Michael Pollan, thank you so much. Thank you so much again for joining us.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Thank you, Michael.

[Michael Pollan]

Thank you guys. And thank you, Christiana, for adding some hybrid vigor to the conversation.

[Trevor Noah]

I love it. I love it. I call it hating, but you call it hybrid vigor. That's going to be the new term we use. Hybrid vigor. She's a hybrid. Vigorous.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I love it. I'm gonna put that in my Instagram bio.

[Trevor Noah]

I love that. Thank you so much, Michael.

[Michael Pollan]

All right, you guys take care.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

You, too.

[Trevor Noah]

So, okay, so let me ask you this. So first of all, if we were at 100%.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

No, for me personally or for society?

[Trevor Noah]

No, for you personally. Oh, okay. We can do both. You at 100%? No, for both.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Okay. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay. So let's go with society.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Where are you now for society? I'm at like 50%. No, because I think that's a good jump. I think most people should not be anywhere near this shit.

[Trevor Noah]

This is fine. I'm willing to take some.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

But, like, when you're setting, like, end of life care.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Veterans.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

You know, people need relief, people need healing. And however you find a healing in a way that's not harmful, I don't want to be in the way of that. But for everyone else, you need to figure it out. I beg, figure it out. Grow up. Everyone's traumatized.

[Trevor Noah]

And for you personally.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

For me personally, got me down to maybe 100% no. To, like, 95% no. Because I don't want to augment my reality.

[Trevor Noah]

So you. So there's nothing in your life where you go, like, I'm stuck and I haven't been able to unstuck.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

Oh, my whole family situation is crazy.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

But I can't fix them. No, but I can't fix my extended family. But, like, no, but I'm saying, what.

[Trevor Noah]

About you in there?

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I agree. There are, like, blocks and stories that we tell ourselves. I feel like someone that I encountered the divine, and I have, like, a sense of wonder, nature, my children.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

I don't have that yearning for it right now because I have.

[Trevor Noah]

That's why I wouldn't say you should do it.

[Christiana Mbakwe]

And I have things that do that for me. But, like, I can. I. I see the benefits, but Michael's great. You're great. You have changed my mind on I'll take it 5%.

[Trevor Noah]

I have moved somebody who is extremely vigorous. I'll take my 5%. Hybrid vigor what now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin and Jody Avagan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackl. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing and market mastering by Hannah's Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of what Now.