Wringing in the New Year [VIDEO]

Summary

Summary of "What Now? with Trevor Noah" Episode: "Wringing in the New Year [VIDEO]"

Introduction

In the January 30, 2025 episode of What Now? with Trevor Noah, hosted by Spotify Studios, Trevor Noah joins his friends and colleagues Anele Mdoda and Sizwe Dhlomo from South Africa. The trio engages in an open and candid discussion about their personal worries as they usher in the New Year, delving into themes of parenting, societal changes, and global economic concerns. The conversation is marked by their trademark blend of humor, honesty, and insightful analysis.

Opening Banter and Setting the Tone

The episode begins with Trevor introducing the informal nature of the podcast, emphasizing the relaxed and genuine interactions that occur when he is with his South African friends.

[00:00] Trevor Noah: "If you're looking for the dictionary definition of a simple podcast, you came to the wrong place."

Anele Mdoda initiates a playful thumb war, setting a light-hearted atmosphere that continues throughout the episode.

Main Worries for the New Year

As the conversation shifts to deeper topics, each participant shares their primary concerns for the upcoming year.

1. Anele Mdoda on Parenting and External Influences

   Anele expresses her anxiety about her 10-year-old son, Alake, transitioning to seeking role models outside the home. She recounts an incident where Alake befriended a child with disciplinary issues during a holiday, prompting her to enforce boundaries to bolster his self-esteem and confidence.

   [07:08] Anele Mdoda: "My son's turning 10 this year, and he's reaching the part of his life where he no longer looks inside the home for role models."

2. Sizwe Dhlomo on the Future World for His Children

   Sizwe shares his apprehension about the environment his children will inherit. While he no longer fears the onset of a World War III due to perceived diplomatic failures, his main concern revolves around the societal structures and conditions their generation will face.

   [09:09] Sizwe Dhlomo: "In the short to midterm, I am worried about the type of world that my kids will grow up in."

3. Trevor Noah on the Failure of the Global Experiment

   Trevor articulates his worry that the global experiment of interconnected economies and societies is unraveling. He points to the uneven distribution of wealth, the rise of xenophobia, and the disruptive impact of social media as indicators of a failing system.

   [10:49] Trevor Noah: "I worry that the global experiment has failed or is failing."

Parenting and Friendship Dynamics

The conversation delves into Anele's strategies for raising her son amidst external pressures. She emphasizes the importance of fostering strong self-esteem to help Alake navigate peer influences effectively.

[14:15] Trevor Noah: "So, tell us the story about him meeting this kid. Where did he meet the kid?"

Anele recounts a moment where she had to assert authority over Alake's friend, highlighting the delicate balance between discipline and nurturing trust.

[16:15] Sizwe Dhlomo: "Psychological tug of war."

Global Issues: Economics and Social Cohesion

Trevor and Sizwe engage in a robust discussion about capitalism, global trade dynamics, and the escalating influence of artificial intelligence (AI). They critique the concentration of capital power and its impact on labor markets, suggesting that technological advancements like AI are exacerbating economic disparities by replacing human labor.

[42:34] Trevor Noah: "Social media... may connect us in moments, but I think it's ripping us apart at the seams in more places than we ever thought."

Sizwe adds an economic perspective, arguing that capital inherently seeks to consolidate power, often at the expense of labor and entrepreneurship.

[46:41] Sizwe Dhlomo: "Capital will always supersede everything in a capitalistic society."

Social Media vs. Physical Community

Anele and Trevor compare the effects of social media on human interactions with traditional, physical community ties. They express concern over the lack of genuine, face-to-face connections, which historically provided deeper understanding and accountability compared to the fleeting nature of online interactions.

[70:48] Anele Mdoda: "Because digitally, there's this thing of, I've said it, it's done. My phone is off, I'm gone."

Trevor reflects on his school experiences, juxtaposing them with the current generation's online interactions, emphasizing the loss of tangible connections.

[69:42] Anele Mdoda: "At least my bully touched me."

Revolution vs. Reset: Societal Evolution

The trio debates the cyclical nature of societal changes, distinguishing between revolutions and resets. They consider whether the current global trends indicate an impending revolution or a necessary reset to address systemic failures.

[48:45] Sizwe Dhlomo: "Because that's what happens. That's a reset. Everything has a reset."

Trevor voices skepticism about the predictability and outcomes of such societal upheavals, fearing that they may lead to unforeseen disruptions.

[49:08] Trevor Noah: "A revolution completely disrupts power... and nobody knows what comes out on the other side."

Hope and Reconciliation Amidst Worries

Despite their concerns, Anele and Sizwe find solace in the resilience of communities and the potential for future reconciliation and understanding. They acknowledge that while challenges persist, the human spirit has a tendency to regroup and rebuild.

[76:07] Anele Mdoda: "We're gonna be back here together."

Trevor contemplates the cyclical nature of human connectivity, suggesting that even in times of division, forces inevitably draw people back together.

[76:57] Trevor Noah: "Maybe life is a constant of humans being pulled apart and then being pulled back together."

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a blend of humor and thoughtful reflection as Anele and Sizwe sign off, leaving listeners with a nuanced perspective on navigating personal and global uncertainties. Trevor’s fears about the failing global experiment are balanced by his friends' optimistic outlooks on overcoming societal fractures.

[77:13] Anele Mdoda: "So you have to be the eternal optimist."

As always, What Now? with Trevor Noah delivers an engaging and introspective dialogue, inviting listeners to contemplate their own worries and the broader forces shaping our world.

Notable Quotes

• Anele Mdoda [07:08]: "My son's turning 10 this year, and he's reaching the part of his life where he no longer looks inside the home for role models."
• Trevor Noah [10:49]: "I worry that the global experiment has failed or is failing."
• Sizwe Dhlomo [46:41]: "Capital will always supersede everything in a capitalistic society."
• Anele Mdoda [70:48]: "Because digitally, there's this thing of, I've said it, it's done. My phone is off, I'm gone."
• Trevor Noah [76:57]: "Maybe life is a constant of humans being pulled apart and then being pulled back together."

Final Thoughts

This episode of What Now? with Trevor Noah offers a deep dive into personal anxieties and global challenges, enriched by the authentic and humorous exchanges between Trevor and his South African friends. It serves as a thoughtful exploration of how individual worries intersect with broader societal issues, providing listeners with both introspection and a sense of shared humanity.

Transcript

[Trevor Noah]

Welcome to what Now? Another episode of the podcast where this time I'm in South Africa. And if you've listened to enough of the podcast, you'll know that when I'm in South Africa, that means I'm with my people. And when I'm with my people, we create different episodes. On one of the first ones I did, I did for my 40th birthday was Anilem Doda, a good friend of mine. She's a broadcaster, she is an executive producer, an all round media mogul, and most importantly, a super mom. And my other friend, Sizzuet Lomo, he's a TV presenter, a radio host, a business person in economics. I think he has a degree in something, he studies a lot. Whatever. The point is he's a friend and we're going to be chatting together. Disclaimer for everyone who listens. These are South Africans, I'm including myself. So we're going to talk like South Africans. And yeah, whatever happens happens. Because when my friends and I do a podcast, we try and make it as informal as possible. So if you're looking for like the dictionary definition of like a simple podcast, you came to the wrong place. Scroll to the next one in your feed now and enjoy that. But if you're looking for like an honest get together of three human beings who love, respect and fight with each other, then you've come to the right place. Welcome to what Now. This is what now with Trevor Noah.

[Anele Mdoda]

1, 2, 3, 4. I declare a thumb war. 1, 2, 3.

[Trevor Noah]

No, that sounds great. This sounds great. We're hearing nothing.

[Anele Mdoda]

Even put sound thingies. Yeah, you, your face went. Who do you think I am?

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, man.

[Anele Mdoda]

You look at me like, yeah, this, this is who I is.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, that is so funny. So welcome guys. Happy New Year.

[Anele Mdoda]

Happy New Year.

[Trevor Noah]

Can you still say Happy New Year?

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yeah, dude, of course.

[Anele Mdoda]

Until.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay, what's your time? What's your cut off?

[Anele Mdoda]

I mean, you know, Valentine's Day.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Depends how well I know you. It also it depends how well I know you. So with you guys it's like, okay, you're pushing it now, but so we.

[Trevor Noah]

Are at the cusp.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yeah, all right.

[Anele Mdoda]

People you're close to, you should have said happy new year on the 1st of January. Otherwise you're not close.

[Trevor Noah]

I've never thought of like a scale, like a gradient for when you can say spectrum, bro. Yeah, you, you, you truly a math guy for everything. Cesar's got like a graph for everything. The X axis is friendship time, then the Y axis is.

[Anele Mdoda]

But remember, Cesar didn't have friends. He's got cousins. We. We are the first friends in Caesar's life. Please, let's remember.

[Trevor Noah]

Happy New Year, guys. Happy New Year. That's funny.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Happy New Year to you, too.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, man.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Stranger.

[Trevor Noah]

What do you mean, stranger?

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

I guess we said, if you're a friend, you should have said, happy New Year.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, wow.

[Anele Mdoda]

Okay. Oh, he came back with that.

[Trevor Noah]

All right, all right. At least you're on form. We're in the mix. I think differently about the conversations we're gonna have because I enjoy delving into your minds as friends, but also as problem solvers. And then I find sometimes when we have these conversations, like the last one we did on the podcast, people were just like, oh, yeah, that was an interesting conversation. And you guys, your friendship. And what I realized is friendship is almost the cooking apparatus that we use to figure things out. Does that make sense? I get you because everyone can have a conversation, But I find when you have a conversation with your people, there are extra ingredients and extra tools that you have, namely your friendship that defines some of the conversation that you can't get with a stranger.

[Anele Mdoda]

I think it's good to have a conversation with your friends because we can say, ah, don't say that one in public. Keep that one here.

[Trevor Noah]

Wait, do you think that's still a thing?

[Anele Mdoda]

Yes, you guys do to us.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, no, no.

[Anele Mdoda]

Wait, wait, wait, wait.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no. But. And this is an honest question.

[Anele Mdoda]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

In fact, this is a great question to kick us off. Cause the conversation I wanted to have with you was, what are you worried about going into the new year, moving forward?

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Right.

[Trevor Noah]

Cause a lot of people have, like, a positive outlook.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

But I'll start with that. Funny enough. Do you think canceling is still a thing? I think it's finished.

[Anele Mdoda]

I think the attempt to cancel is still there. And the fact that there could be an attempt to cancel you means that you could still be cancelled, because you could be ducking and diving and catch one stray that does cancel you. So canceling is still a thing. This is why it is important to ask your friends first. They call them WhatsApp conversations. You know, sometimes. Sometimes you'll tweet something, you'll put on X or you'll put on Instagram and someone like, hey, yeah, yeah, first, start with your friends with that one.

[Trevor Noah]

Test that out.

[Anele Mdoda]

Yeah, it's. I think it's definitely still a thing.

[Trevor Noah]

I don't know.

[Anele Mdoda]

If you lose 10% of your income, it's still 10% of your income that you've lost. Oh, do you know what I'm saying?

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

You.

[Trevor Noah]

So you're looking at even, like, micro cancellations. You're looking at like. Yeah, erosion cancellations.

[Anele Mdoda]

Yes. Like, you know.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, I was just talking about, like, you're cancelled. It feels like it's finished. Like, it feels like we're at a peak.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

So here's the thing. If I'm using Anele's departure points, right. Then I don't necessarily want to take it to cancellation and loss of income. I would just look at it as just how humans interact. And the first thing is some people don't know who they are. That's the first thing.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Then other people know who they are, but they're uncomfortable with who they are.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay. Oh, damn.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

So now when you have a conversation, there are certain things that they want to hold back, specifically when they're with strangers because they don't want the strangers to gain insights to the part that.

[Trevor Noah]

They'Re uncomfortable with, like their racism or xenophobia.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

All of that. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

And it could be anything. Maybe you're a freak. You're just, like, too much.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay, now, so your friends should know you're a freak.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Now your friends already know.

[Anele Mdoda]

Like, at least one of your friends.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

There's nothing. There's nothing here. There's nothing here that I can say that can shock you guys.

[Anele Mdoda]

Yeah. At least one of your friends in. In the event that you die in a dodgy place, one of us must be like, yeah, well, yeah, so now.

[Trevor Noah]

I knew they went there.

[Anele Mdoda]

Exactly.

[Trevor Noah]

I knew he frequented.

[Anele Mdoda]

He's a freak.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

So now we have those conversations. Then you go, okay, okay, okay, turn it back a little bit. And again, it's not because you fear being canceled. It's just again, there are certain things that are just appropriate and others that are inappropriate. That's all it is.

[Anele Mdoda]

Things that are appropriate to. In public and things that are inappropriate.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yes. You get like, inner thoughts and outer thoughts.

[Anele Mdoda]

Yes, I agree with that.

[Trevor Noah]

I like how you said this like you studied it in a textbook.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

It most likely did come from a textbook.

[Trevor Noah]

You're so robotic in theology. Yeah, no, that's what I mean. But you're so robotic in your thinking that it really sounds like literally the way you said that there are inner thoughts and there are outer thoughts. Humans only do inner thoughts inside.

[Anele Mdoda]

He's been AI.

[Trevor Noah]

No, you've been AI.

[Anele Mdoda]

You've been AI.

[Trevor Noah]

You really have. All right, so why don't we go around? We'll. First, I want the high level of what you're worried about for the year. You know, as we go into the future. And by the way, it's not even just for the year. It's rather what you are most concerned about at the beginning of the year that you think may be a thing. Cause, you know, like, every year has a different feeling.

[Anele Mdoda]

Yeah, yeah. Right, So I have two. Do you want me to give you the two now or is it one round? A round?

[Trevor Noah]

And then give. Give us the two now and then I want to hear Caesars and then I'll give you mine and then we'll. We'll see where we kick it.

[Anele Mdoda]

The first one is, my son's turning 10 this year, and he's reaching the part of his life where he no longer looks inside the home for role models and who to mimic himself on, he's going to look externally. And this wasn't something that was, you know, on, you know, top of my mind until we went on holiday and he made a friend, a friend with a discipline problem that by the end of the holiday, I had to say to him, give me your phone. Did you add this? This boy's number said, delete him, block him, we are not going to be friends with him type of thing. And then it had me thinking that, you know, we at a point now where I just have to make sure that his self esteem is so high and his confidence is so unshakable that things like that don't impress him. He has to remember how he was raised that way.

[Trevor Noah]

I love this. Don't. Don't say more on it. Don't say more on it. Okay, so the problem. We got the problem. This is all the worry.

[Anele Mdoda]

Yes, the worry.

[Trevor Noah]

All right, what's your second worry?

[Anele Mdoda]

Last year we had a Christmas party, right. And everybody had to stand up and say what they're grateful for.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Anele Mdoda]

Obviously people are grateful for, you know, work and, you know, good relationships and, you know, being financially sound.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Anele Mdoda]

Somebody stood up and said that he is grateful for how he. Out of 60 people, he's the only one who said that. And it got a lot of us thinking that, you know, we're at a place where anything could be something. Like right now I have an issue with my shoulder, and I'm so scared to go and check it out because I'm so scared they're gonna say something like, oh, you've got six months. I'm like, no, I've got things to do. I can't have six months. And I promise you, my health is something that is just starting to appear in my list of things that I Worry about a lot more than it did, because sooner or later, you know, you have to come to terms that you're not immortal. You're not going to be around here for long, you know?

[Trevor Noah]

Damn. These are very. Okay, these are existential worries in different ways. Ceez, what are you worried about?

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

So this year, per se, not too much. Last year, I was worried about maybe the possibility of World War Three, I don't think.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, so now it's ended for you?

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yeah, it's not gonna happen now.

[Trevor Noah]

Wow.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

These guys fumbled. They fuba'd them.

[Trevor Noah]

What? They fumbled the World War Three.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

They fumbled the opportunity to start World War Three.

[Anele Mdoda]

Is this Ukraine and Russia?

[Trevor Noah]

How could somebody say it?

[Anele Mdoda]

Like.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

No, all of them. This guy, Israel, the U.S. the opportunity.

[Trevor Noah]

To start World War 3.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

FUBAR at the bay.

[Trevor Noah]

Damn. Okay, so you're no longer worried about World War I? I mean, that's a great way to.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Start, but in the short to midterm, I am worried about the type of world that my kids will grow up in.

[Trevor Noah]

You've got kids?

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

In theory.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay. All right.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

You never. Guys, you never know. Your friends can now, like, announce things.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

So. So. And it's more to what Anelia was talking about as well. Right? Because you can do everything in your power to protect your children and those that you love within the ambit of your circle, but then they need to exist within a community. Right. And when they go out, hey, man, I'm seeing that we're just getting too liberal right now, and some of those things are gonna come back to bite us.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay, I like this. All right, great. So Anele's worry is your son is now at an age where he's looking externally for role models. Second thing you're worried about is you're at an age where anything is anything internal.

[Anele Mdoda]

Yeah. Is something something? Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay. See, we're no longer worried about World War iii, Hugh. But worried about the world that his children will live in, because now there'll be a world. So now you've got different problems. Okay, cool. The thing I'm worried about, maybe it touches a little bit on what you're saying, but I worry that the. I worry that the global experiment has failed or is failing.

[Anele Mdoda]

What's the global experiment?

[Trevor Noah]

So I think for a long time, we were seduced by this idea that the whole world could come together as one. And I think a lot of it was. A lot of it was sold through the lens of trade.

[Anele Mdoda]

Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you know what I mean? We've always traded. Don't get me Wrong. We've always traded, but a lot of it was sold through the lens of trade. So like the euro union, you know, it's like ah, and then Brics, Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa, it's like, ah, these blocks that have all come together. And so Europe at some point was like, we don't have a border. You know, if you are Europe here and you can go everywhere in Europe. Yeah, yeah. I think that that is starting to fail because yeah, I don't think we thought far ahead enough or I don't know if we, you know, crossed all the T's and dots cuz we also never did it.

[Anele Mdoda]

Did you always believe in it?

[Trevor Noah]

I was just told that I was too young to like believe or not.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Believe I believed in it.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, you did believe in it.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

But I'll tell you, I don't think this is anything new. If anything, I just think we need more perspective. Because if you go into history and just look at how each civilization has a lifespan, it usually ends like this.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, but that's what I'm. You're just now talking about my worry?

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

And you just said you don't have to worry.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yeah. You don't? No, because listen, here's me.

[Trevor Noah]

You just said to me. Let me just tell you what you just did right now. This is what Cesar did. I was on a plane and I said, I'm a little bit worried that this plane feels like it's gonna go down. And Sizzle said, well, if you look statistically, most planes crash around this age. So you're right. But you don't have to worry. You literally.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

So let me explain, let me finish.

[Trevor Noah]

All right, go.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

You're 100% correct. So all civilizations do come to an end, but it has to be that way so that a new civilization may begin.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes. Right.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

You just have the kind of perspective now at your age. Are you 40, 41. Where you've seen things go from where they were to where they are.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Right. But it's not to say the world's going to end tomorrow.

[Trevor Noah]

No, I'm not. I don't even think that.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

But you're 100% correct. Things are deteriorating at a rapid race.

[Trevor Noah]

All right, so which one do we start with? Which. Which worry do we want to handle for? I'll actually, I actually would love to start with you. I like it. No. Okay.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Because we've been there so that one.

[Trevor Noah]

Can give you what works. So before I say anything on it, take me through a little bit about how you feel. Like as a mom of a son 10 years old. Like, I understand you saying you worry that he's now gonna get external influences, but why is that a worry and not like, necessarily a joy?

[Anele Mdoda]

Oh, because I. There already have been external influences. Right. Just even you two as an example to the. To the relationships that you guys have with Alake. It is bordering on uncle, on father figure and all of that. Right. And so I think it's the older people, because I get to choose them. You must remember that. Oh, for a very long time, I get to choose who is around him.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm honored that you chose me. I thought I was just like, defaulted in, but I'm glad you chose me.

[Anele Mdoda]

Thank you. And now with that, is that he, you know, also, he can't. He can't control who he's going. Who he's going to meet type of thing.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Anele Mdoda]

So granted, yes, somebody may spark his. His interest and it'll be in a good way, but along the line, it's going to be in a bad way. And I just want that he's to know that he's able to decipher and decide for himself that, ooh, you know, this one is. This one is not the one.

[Trevor Noah]

So tell us the story about him meeting this kid. Where did he meet the kid? And how did you know the kid was bad? And why do you think Alake was unable to discern between the good and the bad of the kid?

[Anele Mdoda]

I prefer a kid who's outright rude. Then I'm like, oh, is that it? You know, I'm like, okay, kid, let's square up. But this one, it was just like, slight discipline issues where if we say, hey, guys, let's all go. We're going now.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Anele Mdoda]

He'll stay in the pool. Almost like looking at me to see, are you gonna come in the pool? Type of thing.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Sizing you.

[Anele Mdoda]

Yeah, sizing. Yeah. Constantly sizing me up. But. And I suppose that's the relationship that he has with his parents, you know, where he's constantly pushing the boundaries. You know, the boundaries.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

How old was he?

[Anele Mdoda]

Same ages are like. They're actually seven days apart. They discovered this. Oh, we best friends, you know, Seven days apart. I'm born this day, he's born that day. So I'm like, oh, okay.

[Trevor Noah]

So wait, you said, get out of the pool.

[Anele Mdoda]

Yeah, guys.

[Trevor Noah]

He then looked at you.

[Anele Mdoda]

Yeah. Like.

[Trevor Noah]

And then what did you say?

[Anele Mdoda]

I said, buddy, I said, get out of the pool. You know, and he kind of, like, waddled around a little bit as well. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Because I'm trying To picture. It's. It's pretty gangster for somebody to be.

[Anele Mdoda]

Waiting and challenging you, looking you in the eyes.

[Trevor Noah]

So he doesn't respond.

[Anele Mdoda]

No, he doesn't respond.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Maintaining eye contact. That's a g. That's a G right there.

[Anele Mdoda]

But you see, this is what I'm saying is that come out and we fighting. So I know which arsenal to. To, you know, to activate type of thing. So now when you're doing this.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

That's funny. Oh, boy. That's funny.

[Anele Mdoda]

And then. So now. Now I take like a few. Cuz I was also in the pool, so.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, were you in the pool?

[Anele Mdoda]

No, I was swimming with it and then I got out. So it's also a case of kid, please understand, I'm not too lazy to jump back in here, I will come and fetch you type of thing. Right. And now. Now I'm looking at Alake, and he's almost like he's. He's. He's at the step of the pool. His. His friend is inside the water and his mother's outside. So it was. It was a moment where he was deciding.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Psychological tug of war.

[Anele Mdoda]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, does he want to be good or does he want to be cool?

[Anele Mdoda]

Exactly. You know, so now. So that's. I was like, okay. So it was a few of those things. Maybe we in the room, we're like, okay, we're going for dinner now. Everybody's ready. This kid, I'm like, hey, let's go. You know, 10 minutes now we're standing outside. Even my partner's like, wait, wait. But now our child is standing with us. Now we're waiting for a stranger's child. You know, because we just met you.

[Trevor Noah]

If I may ask. So what heritage is this child? Is this a.

[Anele Mdoda]

Same as I like everything. Guys, when I say everything was interesting.

[Trevor Noah]

So you didn't even have like a little African swag you could pull out? Just a little. A little something?

[Anele Mdoda]

No, no, not at all.

[Trevor Noah]

Wow.

[Anele Mdoda]

Not at all.

[Trevor Noah]

This is actually more dynamic and interesting. I was picturing a white kid, and I was like, no, this is normal.

[Anele Mdoda]

This is a black kid.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, wow.

[Anele Mdoda]

Yeah.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

When you think about it, Anel is fear. Your fear and my fear are the same fear.

[Anele Mdoda]

Run me through that.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

So to kind of like break it down in a nutshell, you just got to ask yourself, are you comfortable with the world raising your child? If you were to set your child out into the wild in the wilderness, which is.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Are you comfortable with the sort of person they'd come back as you see, which speaks to your question and kind of speaks to my fear as well.

[Anele Mdoda]

That's why I was saying that, you know, the job now is to make him so confident and have high self esteem and understand who he is that he doesn't have to be taken by those things. But the truth of the matter is at that age, because you must remember we're preteen now, we're going into teen. Yeah. At that age, you are, you, you are questioning a lot of things. Yes. You know what you were taught. But there are other lessons coming from the outside and they're not always going to be good.

[Trevor Noah]

So I, I don' I don't. I'll probably butcher some of it. I'm bad with remembering numbers. But there was a child psychologist who once told me for boys and girls it's slightly different, but I believe from like 0 to 2 or 3, it's all mom. It's just all mom. Right. And then I think from like 3 to like 7, 10. And it changes. For boys and girls it's mom and dad in terms of like, just like parental household vibe. But then to your point, they say for boys specifically, once they hit like 10, 11, 12 somewhere there, it's all about uncle, as they call it. This, it's all about other men or male figures outside the household.

[Anele Mdoda]

Could be a coach.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anele Mdoda]

It could be a head boy.

[Trevor Noah]

Just like they're the ones who now.

[Anele Mdoda]

Captain of the football team. Yeah, exactly, exactly. The numbers are actually zero to seven is mom. Seven to 14 is, is dad or uncle. And then 14 to 21 is external. But because, but who's external?

[Trevor Noah]

You gave us such specific ones for the first two.

[Anele Mdoda]

No, but you must remember that because kids are growing up at a rapid pace as well.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Anele Mdoda]

For me. And this is not psycho, this is, this is not scientific, whatever. I, I just think that at 10 now we are already extinct. That's possible because also he is going out a lot more than a normal child would have gone out as a 10 year old 20, 30 years ago.

[Trevor Noah]

Is there a part of you that wonders if your mom Tai chi has been enough?

[Anele Mdoda]

Yeah, there is, there is the fact that he questions it. Because you must remember some people just will go along with it immediately.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Anele Mdoda]

Yeah, let's do this. We go. I can see the thought process in Alaka's mind when he goes. And then like, you know, I can, I can see it, I can see it. But also, you know, I've been very careful in because I don't want my child to be scared of me at All I, I don't want that.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

I'm joking.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh wow.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Carry on.

[Anele Mdoda]

I'm so glad that entertained you, both of you.

[Trevor Noah]

You're such a mom, you know, just such a funny line.

[Anele Mdoda]

I don't want my child to be scared of me, but I do want him to, to know that this, this is the line and this is the line. Right. And to, to respect and you know, to respect me and just to respect other people and also to respect somebody's decision that they're not gonna go like, you know what, I respect that you wanna do this, but I am not gonna do that. And that's frankly really all I want.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

So now did you explain to Alake who called this anonymous kid X why X's behavior is not acceptable in this household?

[Anele Mdoda]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Did he pick it up though?

[Anele Mdoda]

Yes, he did.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, so he saw this happening?

[Anele Mdoda]

Yes. And as we're walking back to our room, he was walking so far ahead because he knew, he knew that we want to have, you know, the chat with him. But then I did the most gangster thing, right. I didn't say anything because I could see he was like, it was chewing him. I didn't say anything and I just asked and I said your guys behavior at the restaurant was really not what, what we like about you and what we've taught you. He's like, no, I understand. And then he quickly named exactly what he'd done. What?

[Trevor Noah]

This is child X.

[Anele Mdoda]

No, this is, I like it.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, this is.

[Anele Mdoda]

Okay, okay. And he quickly like, but, but then because we're asking him, because there were a point where they weren't within us seeing what they were doing. But then they came back and they just like dishelved and wait like they were playing with water somewhere type of thing. Yeah, but he, so he explains what happened. I'm not buying the story, but he explains what happened to my partner. My partner's buying this. I don't know if he was buying it. Whatever guy to guy as well. They had like a little manual man, actually, you handle it. Leave me out of it. Fine, go to bed. Three in the morning, I wake up because I want him to tell me the story again as he's just woken up, going to go into his room, going to his room and, and he's.

[Trevor Noah]

On a holiday, bro.

[Anele Mdoda]

Put the lights on. Everything. The lights on. No, but he doesn't wake up because the lights are on. But I just want that when I do wake him up.

[Trevor Noah]

The lights are on.

[Anele Mdoda]

Yeah, the lights are on. So I can see his immediate reaction. I asked him, just give me that story again. Run it by me again. Because I didn't quite catch it.

[Trevor Noah]

I just want to rewind to the point when you said, I don't want my son to be scared of you, bruh.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

We had a resort.

[Trevor Noah]

We're at a resort.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Drill sergeant is turning on the lights.

[Trevor Noah]

At three to interrogate you, bruh. To interrogate you.

[Anele Mdoda]

Switch on the lights. And then I get into bed with him and then I nudge him. I'm like, hey, baba, wake up. He wakes up, he's like, oh, is it time for us to go? Ready? I'm like, no, no. Just quickly. I didn't quite hear that story.

[Trevor Noah]

Wow.

[Anele Mdoda]

Wow. Run it by me again. What? And then he ran. He said it, and I was comfortable with the answer. And then I was like, but you do understand that this is not behavior we are accustomed. He's like, no, I get it. And I know that it was wrong and this is why I was apologizing. And I'm like, okay, cool. I just wanted to know that the story was the story and there wasn't anything else that I need to address. And I said to him, because you know that some kids don't come. Kids don't come from the same backgrounds and from the same homes type of thing.

[Trevor Noah]

In other houses they leave the lights off and they let you sleep until the morning. That's how other houses do it.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Words.

[Anele Mdoda]

But in this house, wow. You know, so yeah, you. But also when I did that, because then I got back and then my partner's like, is everything fine? I'm like, yeah, yeah, it's fine. And then like, then when I woke up in the morning and I told you, he was like, no, no ways. And I'm like, yeah. And I said to him, you know what? I've never been a mother to a 10 year old before, so I'm also winging it type of thing. Yeah, that's true. I'm also winging it. Much like he's never been a 10 year old before and with all these emotions and everything that's going on with him. So we're just going to have to figure each other out and I have.

[Trevor Noah]

To like negotiate with a 10 year old terrorist. Essentially, yes. And just hope that their logic coincides with yours. You know, I. I don't know if I ever told you the story. So Isaac, my youngest brother, right. Him and, and the middle brother were staying with me in la and they'd come to visit me and it was this whole thing and we're there for, like, Christmas, and they now gotten to an age where they're big enough that I have to negotiate with them, but they're still young enough that they do crazy shit, right? So one day, we're all having. We're having dinner together. We order food, and then we. But we plate it. I was like. Because I want them to feel civilized. You know what I mean? Because I was like, I'm also the person who eats out the box. But I want. Let's do, like, a family thing. Let's put. Take the food out of the. Out of the box and put it on a plate. Like, we cooked it cool. So we all eat. We all. We put things together. Everything's great. We're done. And when we're done, it's time to clean up. And I say, guys, help me. Let's take everything to the kitchen. And I take, like, one bowl, one glass. My brothers stack everything. They stack, stack, stack, stack, stack everything. I'm like, what are you guys doing? Like, we're taking it to the. To the kitchen. I was like, guys, guys, guys. Take one thing at a time.

[Anele Mdoda]

Can come back.

[Trevor Noah]

My other brother's like. He's like, ah, but I can do this. I got this. I was like, yeah, Whoa, whoa, whoa. It's not about whether you've got this. Take one thing at a time. You're stacking, like, everything. You know what I mean? He's like, yeah, but I'll be fine. I was like, no, no, no, no, no. You think you'll be fine until you're not fine. Please, just take one thing at a time. He's like, oh, okay. So I go to the kitchen with the one thing, and now, you know, we're doing that thing where we're crossing. So one person goes to the table. Other person. One person goes to the table. As I'm at the table with the youngest, Isaac, we're chatting. I hear a smash on the other side of the house. Glass shattering. And you know. You know what? It's not even like, I'm like, oh, is there a break in? I know exactly what glass that was. So go to the kitchen. I'm like, yo, bro, what happened? Oh, yeah, the glass dropped. I'm like, the glass didn't just drop. The glass dropped because you took more things than I told you to. Then he's like, oh, yeah, my bad. Then I'm like, no, not your bad. Not your bad. I told you the thing. So now we're having this, like, you know, and he's not even fighting he's being, like, very polite and everything. And so now the youngest is, like, running with the stuff. So he's doing one and one, but he's sprinting back and forth. So I'm like, okay, no running.

[Anele Mdoda]

So many rules, Trevor.

[Trevor Noah]

This is what he says. He's like, geez, bro. He's like, so many rules. I'm like, yes. These are the rules for how you make sure that the stuff in your kitchen stays around, right?

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

And also, you don't hurt yourself.

[Trevor Noah]

You see? So he's running, guys. At some point, I go, yo. I said, walk slowly. Take the things one by one. Don't. He's like, yo, but I run all the time. I'll be good. I was like, yo, just take the things. He's like, but why do I have to do it, yo? And I'll never forget this. In that moment, he's like, why do I have to? And I was like, Cause I said so. And you know, when, like, every parent flashed in front, I was like, ah.

[Anele Mdoda]

Ah.

[Trevor Noah]

I have become death.

[Anele Mdoda]

He became Raven.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

But did he accept that?

[Trevor Noah]

No, he didn't. But I've always said, my.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

My.

[Trevor Noah]

My youngest brother's probably the. The smartest person we've ever had in our family and the most emotionally intelligent. He sat with it, he did what I said, and he came back maybe like 10 minutes later, you know? Now, there was, like, a weird feeling in the house, but he came back to me and he said. He said, hey, Trev. He said, I just wanted to apologize for what happened. I didn't mean to offend you. I was like, yeah, I get it. I'm sorry, too, you know? He says, but here's the thing. He's like, the reason I keep asking you why when you tell me to do things, it's not because I want to undermine who you are as a person. He's like, it's because I don't understand why you're doing things the way you do them. So if I just do them the way you do them, I never really believe in it. I'm just doing it because I've learned it as a rote identity. He's like, but if I actually learn why you do it the way you do, then maybe I can adopt it as my own. And then if I'm challenged by somebody or something, one day I'll know why I do it. So the reason I ask you why is not because I'm challenging you as my big brother. It's just because I really want to understand why you actually do It. Because I don't want to be a robot. I want to be a human being who believes in my actions. So, you know, you know, what it made me realize is, like, I realized that every parent and every adult figure in a child's life will have that frustration. You are bound to be frustrated because you are proposing every idea through the lens of logic and experience. But your kids, rightfully, I think, in many ways, are also here to test what those boundaries are. If every child, even us, think of us, the three of us sitting here and everyone who's listening. If you did everything the way your parents did it, half the time, you wouldn't be where you are. You wouldn't have discovered a new way to work, a new type of job, a new career, a new country, a new language, a new sport, a new religion, a new style of dressing, a new relationship. Yeah. Like, you literally have to break what they've taught you to make something new. And the difficulty, as you say, is we're all winging it. We don't. We don't know what will or won't work. It's just in these moments where you go, look, when we say, get out of the pool, get out of the pool. But it's. It's. It's a tough one. Cause it's like, do you have a. Cause I've never had a friend who's a mom. Do you get what I'm saying? Like a friend friend.

[Anele Mdoda]

Thanks, Drift.

[Trevor Noah]

No. What?

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

I'm also like, damn, dude, there's a way to break up with a friend.

[Trevor Noah]

No, what I'm saying is. No, what I'm saying is. So. So what I'm saying is, I've never been in the position where I can say this to you and ask you, honestly, like, do you have a. It's not like you can have a fixed number, but do you have a number of how much you're willing to tolerate his boundary pushing because you think it might be what creates something bigger and more beautiful than you've ever considered.

[Anele Mdoda]

Definitely. But the thing that we parents are doing now is we're very willing to question the school that he's at because there's too much writing and the kids aren't writing anymore. Let's take him to a school that just does robotics and everything is compute. It's all. Or sporting. Right. Oh, my child is so good at this. Maybe I should take him out of the school because he's going to play for the Springboks, so he's going to play for the Proteas. And all of that. But I think when it comes to, you know, just discipline and emotion and all of that, as parents, we're very much holding on to, you know, what you believe at that. At that moment in time. It's very difficult. And I tried very hard with. With my son, where I'm like, okay, level with me. Let. Talk to me. You know, explain to me what was your thinking when you were doing that? Yeah, yeah, right. So that I can understand, because like you said, I'm 40 and he's 10. And we really.

[Trevor Noah]

We. We.

[Anele Mdoda]

Different times. Right. You know, different times, different ways of parenting as well. And I didn't have that with my mom or my dad. It was what they say. Sure. You know, that's the rule. That was the rules also, because it's like, I'm paying for the house. I'm paying for this. So, you know, as long as you live under this household, under this roof, under this roof, you are going to, you know, type of thing. And I don't want that with the house. You know, simple things as well. Like people ask me, why do you knock when you go into your son's room? You know, it's your house. I'm like, yes, but it's his room.

[Trevor Noah]

Did you knock at 3am you didn't. That was a. That was a surprise.

[Anele Mdoda]

And also, that's a hotel.

[Trevor Noah]

That's a. Oh, okay. Oh, nice.

[Anele Mdoda]

Nice.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

I see.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, when law enforcement finds all these loopholes. Oh, we didn't need a search warrant because it wasn't your home.

[Anele Mdoda]

No, no, no.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

In all fairness, the visitor was sanctioned by the Minister of Tourism.

[Trevor Noah]

Right.

[Anele Mdoda]

Gave me keys to the city, so. So, like, why do you knock? And I'm like, because I want him to knock when he's coming into my room. Right?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, yeah, you wanna. You wanna model the behaviors.

[Anele Mdoda]

And here's the thing, is that I want to show you that I respect your privacy because everybody else in the world must also respect your privacy, because if I. How can I say, I'm allowed to not to respect your privacy, but everybody else must respect your privacy type of thing.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay?

[Anele Mdoda]

So I. I basically treat him the way I want the world to treat him so that he can know he's like, no, back at home. This is how I'm treated. And you're not treating me the way that I'm treated at home, where I'm loved. So this is not gonna fly. And actually, that's all you want your kids to be about.

[Trevor Noah]

We're gonna continue this conversation right after this Short break. Did you ever have a bad influence? Cause I know you weren't the bad influence.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yeah. So bad influences are everywhere.

[Trevor Noah]

No, but I'm saying, as a kid, like, did you have. Did you have a friend where they were like your bad infl. Cause I was the bad influence. In many ways, yes, I will say. But I also think I had many friends. I think we were renegades together. To be honest, I didn't.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

My formative years. No.

[Trevor Noah]

No, you didn't.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

No.

[Trevor Noah]

Wow.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Because majority of the people that were around me were handpicked by my parents.

[Trevor Noah]

Come back to the cousins.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Exactly. Even my friends. It was really because my parents are friends with these people. And then they'd be like, we're going to so and so's house. And then, hey, okay, Dumiso is my friend. I didn't like. It's not like I sought out Dumiso to be my friend. It didn't work like that. But here's my thinking and the approach, and I. Obviously, I think you're doing it well. I think all you can do, look at it like coding. You just introduce the fundamentals right. To your child and then tell them about computer coding. Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

But even with human beings. Because essentially it is a system anyway.

[Trevor Noah]

Because we robots, because we're AI, Aren't we all. Aren't we? Aren't we all agree with you?

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Sorry, this program is tripping. I'll delete. Right. So once you've got the fundamentals in place and they understand them, and obviously you guys are in agreement with the fundamentals are, then you can go to, like, intermediate programming and tell them, okay, well, now with these fundamentals that you fully understand.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

What do you think the right thing to do in this situation is? And then he will tell you. And then you go, well, actually, that is the wrong thing to do. I like it. Because if you do that, for example, Isaac, I know you're used to running, but there's a possibility you may slip and you carry a glass, and you will get impaled by this glass. That's why it's rather safer for you to just walk right by running. Yeah. You save a little bit of time, but we in no rush. Then it's like, okay, cool.

[Trevor Noah]

You're very logical.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

But that's how life is. What else?

[Trevor Noah]

You sound like you've never been a child.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

No, but listen to me, guys.

[Trevor Noah]

I knew. Let me tell you something.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

When I was opening the TV in the living room.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yes.

[Anele Mdoda]

And I was opening it like. Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

When I was screwing the whole thing. Logically, I knew everything.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

I unscrewed the tv, too, but I had logic for it, okay? I wanted to see how the TV works.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, same with me.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

And as a result, I was able to fix things at home. I was a guy, like, dude, maybe by, like, 8. I was a handyman at home. And my dad understood I couldn't have been the handyman unless I broke my toy. But I'll tell you what, when things were wrong and I fixed it without him paying a cent, boy, was he glad I broke that toy. Okay, you see?

[Anele Mdoda]

So that's actually immediate.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, you see what?

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Now here's the thing.

[Trevor Noah]

Now, that's. It's funny, it comes back around to, like, is there a reward on the other side?

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Always a reward. I'm told I was a highly inquisitive child. I guess I still am, even as an adult. Right? And the thing with questions is you just gathering data points. That's all you do. You gather. You're gathering data points and you're going to later use those data points that you've collected and go, oh, okay. Well, when I asked Auntie Anela this, she told me this, this, and that. So maybe I should go this way. There's a lot of things I never got to experience and still have no inkling. I don't even want to experience them. But I've learned major lessons from other people and their experience of those things. So when you now withhold those answers and you just because I said so, you nip it in the bud by saying yes because I said so, you are starving Isaac of the data points he needs. Not for him to be able to come up with the decision which will then obviously make sense to him.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, the wrong or the right. All right, well, if you need, you know, outside models, role models, you let us know.

[Anele Mdoda]

No, no, I'm covered.

[Trevor Noah]

You must. You must let us know. I mean, but, Mina, I'm. I'm probably gonna say, even at this age, I will bring a little bit of bad influence, but always respectful. One thing my teachers always said, Trevor's.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Very respectful, but he's very troublesome.

[Trevor Noah]

He's very disruptive in class, but very respectful and oftentimes does not apply himself. But very respectful. There was no disrespect in what I was doing. Do you know what I mean?

[Anele Mdoda]

No. No.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes, ma'am. No, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. I was the one who put the firecracker in the toilet, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. That is correct, ma'am.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Why, Trevor? Why?

[Trevor Noah]

Because we wanted to see what happens.

[Anele Mdoda]

The thing about being a child, being inquisitive as well, is that it could be on the bad side of things. Yes, because that's.

[Trevor Noah]

That's what I see your worry as well.

[Anele Mdoda]

Because people always treat like being inquisitive, like, oh, it's such a wonderful thing. It's a great trait. He's so inquisitive. But if he's inquisitive as to what's going to happen if, at age 9, he takes the car.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Anele Mdoda]

Right. That's not a good thing.

[Trevor Noah]

I did that.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yeah, I thought about that.

[Anele Mdoda]

About what?

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Taking the car.

[Trevor Noah]

Why didn't you do it?

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

So our driveway was like a bit of an incline. So when I was leaving, I would have been fine. But then when I was driving back, the car obviously would have had, like, hummed a little bit. Then I thought, what if my dad thinks the car's getting stolen and then he shoots me? Then I was like, I would rather not take this car.

[Trevor Noah]

The sentence would end like that.

[Anele Mdoda]

Me too.

[Trevor Noah]

I didn't think the sentence would end like that.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yeah.

[Anele Mdoda]

Wow. I thought grounded. Like grounded or get a thought.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

What's the worst thing that could happen? He could think the car is getting stolen and shoot me.

[Anele Mdoda]

Okay, but now we mustn't stick on this one because everybody's got to worry. Now we're going to spend the next hour discussing only my worries.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

But our worries are all the same. We solve you.

[Trevor Noah]

This is. This is interesting.

[Anele Mdoda]

Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay. So. Okay, then let's. Let's.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

But wait. She raised a very good point. We just glossed over it. It actually is the answer. What she spoke about his self confidence. Right. And belief in himself.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

That actually is the answer to everything.

[Anele Mdoda]

Because if.

[Trevor Noah]

If, for example, I don't think it is. But finish. Finish what you said.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Okay? It's the answer to most things. No, no, but keep going. If his self confidence is strong enough. Right. Peer pressure will never be an issue. And we know, for example, that Alaq is very smart already. He's super smart, so he knows what right and wrong is. What usually sways people from wrong is the external influence. If he's strong enough and believes in himself, he can say, hey, dude, I hear what you're saying, but that's not how ours raised. That's not how we roll. And so already he's kind of insulated from the external influences of the world. Not to say he'll never, like, go wrong, but he's unlikely to go as wrong as other People who are just amoebas and they go with the flow. A lot of people end up in trouble. They're like, yo, dude, I don't even want to be here. I told you guys, let's not go there.

[Anele Mdoda]

Now you're sharing a cell.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

You see?

[Trevor Noah]

So I hear what you're saying. One caveat I'd like to throw into this, and one counter argument is if we live in a world where everyone completely believes in themselves, I think we have a little less social cohesion. We should never take for granted how powerful peer pressure is in society. So when you're on the road and you see that you could drive in the emergency lane and just get ahead of everyone, peer pressure is the only thing keeping you back. Yeah, you might be like, oh, the police. No, no, no. But beyond that, there's an element of knowing that every other road user is in some way, shape or form going to be against you. And you're like, I'm not gonna do it. When you're standing in a line at an airport or anywhere else and you see that you could cut and you could get ahead, peer pressure is the only thing, like, stopping you from doing. You're not gonna get arrested. Do you get what I'm saying? I think there's a. There's a weird balance. And we don't know what the knobs.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Perfectly are, but the world knows.

[Anele Mdoda]

But the way you look, it's interesting.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

That you say that.

[Trevor Noah]

No, can I tell you, we don't.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Know what the balance is, but the world always fine tunes you.

[Trevor Noah]

So, okay, my argument is this, and this may sound a little anarchist, but it's not. But, like, I don't believe we know, and I don't think there is a right, because I think every piece needs to exist. So, like, on the one hand, you need like a renegade to be like a Steve Jobs, let's say where he goes, no, we're going to do this. And people are like, you can't do it. And he's like, we're going to do it. And then he does it. And then now everyone's like, ah, yeah, this is how it should have been. But then there's also some renegades who are like, Jeffrey Dahmer. Jeffrey Dahmer didn't suffer from peer pressure, I'm assuming. I don't think he was like, what are my friends gonna say? He did his thing.

[Anele Mdoda]

He did his thing.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no, no.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

So here's the thing.

[Trevor Noah]

So all I'm saying. All I'm saying is I believe that There isn't one fixed way or not way. I think a system will always like, find entropy. It will always find a place where it exists for the best of what it is trying to do. But I. I think you can create a child, or you think you. You can try your best to create a child who does not care about what anyone else says. And I think those types of people are assholes in the world as well. Cause they don't care about what anyone else says. And then there are some people who care too much about what everyone else says. And then they are at the whims of. Of the crowd.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

So Joe Biden's got a line, right?

[Trevor Noah]

Joe Biden?

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Joe Biden, the rapper.

[Anele Mdoda]

Very different.

[Trevor Noah]

I was like, wow, this guy's about to quote Joe Biden. I was like, damn, I don't think I've ever heard anyone qu.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

This is a rap line. Also, long before he did podcasts and he speaks about mama raised me proper. The streets just molded me. The streets coded me, made me a better pedigree. Then he goes on to say, things are complicated like Avril Lavigne said it be, but that's besides the point. Hey, basically, when you go out into the world, the world will either affirm you or it will challenge you. Cool, right? So with your fortitude, you go there and then the world be like, no, my friend, that's not how this works. And very quickly, if you're a smart person, you will then learn, oh, damn, I'm wrong about this. However, yes, if you are correct about your ways, the world will affirm you. And then you'll see, it's okay. This actually works. And that's how people end up rising to a certain point.

[Trevor Noah]

So, okay, it's actually funny you. You say that, because I think that's. That's a perfect segue to my worry. I agree that the world will affirm you or challenge you. Right. But I don't think that that is based in absolute truths. So sometimes you will be affirmed or challenged based on the circumstance of the situation.

[Anele Mdoda]

True. Or what people can benefit from affirming you a challenge.

[Trevor Noah]

Exactly. Exactly. So, so now let's go to my worry. The reason I say I think the global slash liberal slash whatever experiment has failed is because there was a time when many politicians around the world started to believe, and I'm sure there was another time when this happened with trading in general. But they said, you know what? We could be connecting the world in interesting and different ways. You know, you could. You could make something in China or you could make it in any country where it's developing, really. And that means the country where they're selling it to, they can focus on different types of labor. They can be more specialized, they can work in offices. They can do this. So they'll actually be selling a different product to the world. Their product might be a service, it might be something digital. And then the people who are using that, they might buy something else, and they might.

[Anele Mdoda]

But we're all connected and be a chain. Yeah, yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And we're all. And it's. It's the circle of life. You know what I mean? It's like this beautiful world where money is flowing from one place to the next. And now. And Cesar, you're the economics guy, so I'm sure you. You can speak to it deeper than I can. But, like, I feel like what happened was, first and foremost, the money dammed up in a way that no one really predicted. So the money didn't move around the world. It didn't stay in Bangladesh and Vietnam and all these places where the workers are making it. It very quickly left those places and went into bank accounts in certain parts of the world. Right. The people working even at these companies in those parts of the world, it doesn't matter how big these corporations are. But one of the things I find particularly interesting is how, like, we've accepted this as normal and maybe we won't for a while. Where companies can hire people to help them make profits. Once they've achieved that profit, they can fire all of those people and hire people for the next to help them make more profits. Right? So this is the second part of it. Why? I think it's. Why I think it's failing. I think we were never fully prepared to communicate with everyone, everywhere, all the time, without understanding the nuances and the complexities that come with everybody's understanding of the world in the. You know, in the same way that we're worried about, like, what we say.

[Anele Mdoda]

To aliens when they arrive.

[Trevor Noah]

Not even when they arrive. You've seen. We've sent. We've sent, like, things to signals, like. Yeah, and we've sent capsules. And then they'll choose. They go, we've put some Mozart, some Beethoven. We've sent. But there's also, like, crazy shit we've sent. We've sent, like, a random, like, rock and roll song that could sound like a war anthem. I don't know. Or maybe Mozart sounds like war to an alien. I don't know. Right. You really don't know?

[Anele Mdoda]

When you said We've sent really sophisticated fighters. Came into my mind. Wasn't. Wasn't that. I was like, oh, no.

[Trevor Noah]

But we've also sent, like, plants and seeds, and we've tried to. We've tried to send what we think encapsulates the human race is what we've done.

[Anele Mdoda]

Ooh, that is a very, very risky thing.

[Trevor Noah]

Exactly.

[Anele Mdoda]

Because what does encapsulate the human race.

[Trevor Noah]

That's exactly my point.

[Anele Mdoda]

And so maybe each country should send something even then.

[Trevor Noah]

And so now I'm saying social media as a whole, the whole connected idea of it, forget, like, actual social media. I just don't think we ever prepared for it. We never prepared for a message to cross borders and cultures in the way that it does. It may connect us in moments, but I think it's ripping us apart at the seams in more places than we ever thought. And so that's why I think the whole thing is falling apart. I think in South Africa, where we are at right now, I think we're going to see only more xenophobia. We're going to see more people not wanting immigrants to come into the country. And in many people's defense, by the way, not just in South Africa, in the US In Europe, et cetera, if we use the binary, we can be very quick to say, these people are hateful. It's very easy to do that. Right. But the underlying issue is true in many places.

[Anele Mdoda]

But I think you've got a global view because you are a global person. Right. We can scale this down and realize that it's always been like that. It's just that now we are aware that it's happening everywhere else as well. Let me take it back to South Africa.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Anele Mdoda]

A person who was raised in the hood and a person was raised in the rural areas, they are aliens to each other.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay. So the hood versus the village, essentially, versus the village.

[Anele Mdoda]

There we go. But then even in America, somebody was raised in the south, and I'm a southern belle.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Anele Mdoda]

Do you know what I'm saying? As opposed to somebody who was raised in New York, those people are also quite alien.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay. Yes.

[Anele Mdoda]

Right. And that's. Now that is a country. I just feel that because you've been everywhere in the world, it is a lot more heightened for you that you think that.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no. So this. But this is what I mean. I mean that the experiment was. It felt like it was working for a moment.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

So here's the thing. I mean, I can't speak to the second part of your thought process, because that's more sociology. But the first one, which is economics, that makes sense. And even if you look at any economic textbook, it really just. It dictates that things will be that way because capital, by its very nature is monopolistic. Right?

[Trevor Noah]

Right.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

There are four factors of production. We are told. We told it's capital, labor, entrepreneurship, and then I suppose, land. But really, when you think about it, there's only one factor of production. It's capital. Because with capital, you can buy the other three.

[Trevor Noah]

Right.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

That's why the effect has been that money has always pulled back to money. Yes. Because once you've made the money, you realize, okay, I no longer need the labor. Now I can build AI and that will substitutes they need for labor. Right. Okay, I no longer need entrepreneurship. I can go to India and hire CEO. Okay, I no longer need, for example, land. Right. These are all the things. Capital will always supersede everything in a capitalistic society, as I was called. Capitalistic.

[Trevor Noah]

Right.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Don't call it labor listing.

[Trevor Noah]

I want to live in the land. No, but, but. So I agree with you. And what I'm saying though, is this was an experiment. Remember, we're always conducting an experiment. Like you said with your son, you're winging it. We're also winging it. I think this is something we should always acknowledge as people. And I think not enough politicians do and not enough leaders do. They make it seem like we know. So I've seen people who talk about, like, socialism, they know. People talk about communism, they know people talk about capitalism, they know. But I'm like, guys, you don't know. We're all winging it with as much information as we have. We're gathering data points, as you say. Right. So there was no communism until there was. There was no socialism until there was. There was no capitalism until there was. Right. What I'm saying is this experiment that we're conducting now, I worry that it's failing, but I worry that it's failing because the reason I worry about it failing is because of the ramifications on the other side. So.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

But that's how revolutions come.

[Trevor Noah]

This is my point.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

It's the reset. Everything has a reset.

[Trevor Noah]

You see, this is my point. I don't like your tone when you say these things. Sizwe, you say very. No, no. But he says it in a very. Your tone is positive, but the message you're giving is like. You're like, yes, well, that's a revolution.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Because that's what happens. That's a reset.

[Trevor Noah]

And everyone's gonna Die. Yes, but your tone, you must deliver in like. Well, that's a resolution.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

You are worried that you're living on the cusp.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes, completely.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yes.

[Anele Mdoda]

He wants to miss the revolution.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

But we.

[Trevor Noah]

Not me.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yes, all of us.

[Anele Mdoda]

You want to miss the revolution?

[Trevor Noah]

No.

[Anele Mdoda]

You want to be here for it?

[Trevor Noah]

No, I don't want to be here for it.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Trevor doesn't want.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you want to be here for revolution?

[Anele Mdoda]

I mean, I. I think in many parts we.

[Trevor Noah]

You want to be here for the revolution?

[Anele Mdoda]

No, I don't want to be a revolution.

[Trevor Noah]

Let me tell you something about revolution.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

It's disruptive and.

[Trevor Noah]

No. And nobody knows what comes out on the other side.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

You. You think I have power. A revolution completely disrupts power. You think, oh, but I'm of the people. Revolutions also squash the people.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And the outcome of a revolution is not predictable. Right.

[Anele Mdoda]

And wasn't covert a revolution.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, it wasn't.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

But Trevor's right in that it's obviously it depends what sort of person you are. Right. It's better to be living in very calm times and steady times.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

But you learn a lot if you're living on the cusp, because that's where majority of change takes place.

[Trevor Noah]

I mean, this is true.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yeah. But if you look at us, we've gone. We literally went from nlocked to digital. That alone will blow many people's minds.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Crazy, the things that we've seen. We went from dat recorders to CDs to cassette tapes, to VHS to see your.

[Anele Mdoda]

When I said that, you know, maybe I think we've lived the revolutions. I think you guys think I'm assuming like the violent ones, you know.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no, no, no. I. I just mean.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

You mean a reset.

[Anele Mdoda]

Okay, so you're saying I'm talking about a reset and not a revolution.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yes.

[Anele Mdoda]

You're going to have to. Then give me the difference between those.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

A revolution, you'll know.

[Anele Mdoda]

Blood will be spilled.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Not necessarily blood was spilled, but you wouldn't be sitting at something about COVID as a revolution. You'd know for a fact.

[Anele Mdoda]

Then give me an example of a revolution.

[Trevor Noah]

Cuban revolution.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yes. Well, Arab Spring, somewhat, but regimes change.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Presidents.

[Anele Mdoda]

Okay. Violent then?

[Trevor Noah]

Not necessarily. Not necessarily. They can be peaceful.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Like in 1994, South Africa had a revolution. But a peaceful revolution, more or less.

[Trevor Noah]

No. Okay, this is. So this is what I mean. I'll just throw them out at you and maybe you'll understand the picture that I'm seeing now. Let's say in America. Right. It was interesting to see how even amongst themselves, the Trump MAGA crowd is experiencing, like, a fraying connection between the people.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

In a microcosm, you look at the Trump Party. I don't call it the Republican Party. It's the Trump Party. You would think within that world, everyone would just be like, yeah, we know what we're doing. We're doing it right. Look at the thing that happened with Elon Musk and the H1B1 visas. Elon Musk is rolling with Donald Trump. They're like, hey, we know what we're doing. We're planning this new world order. Elon's like, hey, man, I have a new best friend. I paid $250 million for him, so I want to hang out with him all the time. Trump is like, trump needs his mom.

[Anele Mdoda]

To come to me at three in the morning.

[Trevor Noah]

Trump is like, you're a bit of a loser. I wanted your money. Go away. That's because you can see Trump knows cool and not cool. Like you saw when Trump was sitting with Obama. Say what you want.

[Anele Mdoda]

But Trump was like.

[Trevor Noah]

Trump was like, this guy's cool.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yeah.

[Anele Mdoda]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

You could see he was like, he. All those fancy things.

[Anele Mdoda]

He's trying to make him laugh. He's like, yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And he was making him laugh.

[Anele Mdoda]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Trump was like, this guy's cool.

[Anele Mdoda]

I need this guy's approval.

[Trevor Noah]

Exactly. Because Trump knows cool. Say what you want about him. Say what you want. Say what you want about him. So when I look at the Elon Musk thing, it's amazing to see how quickly what I'm talking about is affecting everyone. Because Elon Musk and his people go, all right, now we know what we're doing. Trump fans and supporters are like, actually, no. Like, Steve Bannon goes, no, no, no. Hey, I actually don't like this agenda. Why are we hiring these people from India and from these places to come and work on these companies? Elon's like, cause we need them. Then Steve Bannon's like, no, we don't need them. We need them because we haven't created a world where Americans are the ones that are needed. Then the tech guys say, yes, but like, Vivek Ramswamy and Elon Musk, they say, yeah, but Americans are not trained enough and they're not smart enough. Then these guys are like, oh, you're saying Americans are stupid? Is that what you're saying? They're like, no. And then the other guy's like, yes, I am saying that. Then he's like, why don't we train Americans? Then he's like, no, because it's not supposed to work like that. And then even within that little confine, you see the thing falling apart. The promise hasn't been delivered. Right. Because white Americans were told, stop your factory things.

[Anele Mdoda]

We got this.

[Trevor Noah]

Don't worry. So what's gonna happen is you're gonna just move forward, right? And your company, you're gonna wear a suit and tie, and you're gonna have a different job, and you're gonna get great money. Worked for a moment. Then companies, as you say, capital does what capital does. Companies were like, we could actually make more money with less. And why are we paying American workers when we could be paying people from India or Bangladesh less? And even if they come into the country, we can force them to work a ton of hours because what are they gonna say? No?

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

And they'll be a lot more appreciative of the dollar.

[Trevor Noah]

Exactly. Because they have a visa. Exactly. And now, even within that tiny world, you see the experiment failing. And now there's Steve Bannon comes and says, elon Musk is a white South African who is racist and born from apartheid. We cannot allow him into the White House. Now, people watching this are like.

[Anele Mdoda]

Like, wait, wait.

[Trevor Noah]

Steve Bannon is saying this guy's racist? No one knows what to do.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

No one knows what to do with it.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, no one knows what. But that's just one example. Then you look at South Africa and how South Africans are now going like, actually, actually, no, no, no. We're not trying to help Africa. No, no. We're just trying to do our own thing. Then you look at Europe. Europe's like, no, no, no, no, no. Close, close. Here, Germany. They're like, hey, man, this whole immigrant thing, actually, no, no, no, no, no. We're not. We're not. Then you look at, like, banking. You look at higher. We are on a fast track to people turning around and saying, wait a minute. If AI is doing every job, who's doing a job? And if nobody's doing a job, who's buying things? And if nobody's buying things, what are we doing?

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

This is why it's so interesting, because all of it actually just boils down to economics and living conditions. Everything you've just highlighted is not a problem. If people are comfortable.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, completely.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

If we're all comfortable. I love AI because who wants to work?

[Trevor Noah]

Yes, let AI work.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

If we're all comfortable and you're telling me you want to bring in some Indian guy. Hey, by all means, buddy, do the thing there. I'll suggest yeah, that's true.

[Anele Mdoda]

But you.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Okay, that's problem is.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Now when we starving, they were like, hey, man, these foreigners are taking our jobs. That's the problem.

[Trevor Noah]

That is the problem.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Whereas if we were comfortable, we'd be like, hey, buddy. Hey, I got something here for you. Do you want to do this? Because I don't want to do it. That's essentially the issue.

[Trevor Noah]

And that's what I'm saying has failed.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm saying the thing that was sold to people was prosperity for all. That has not happened. Whether it's South Africa, whether it's the United States, whether it's parts of Europe, never happened. Wait, you think it can't happen.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Never Prosperity for all.

[Trevor Noah]

It can. No, but it can.

[Anele Mdoda]

Because this is what I want to say. This is that even when we are like you're saying the Trump Party, not the Republicans, even when we're all for one thing and we have one ideal, we're still going to disagree within that.

[Trevor Noah]

Right. But not fundamentally.

[Anele Mdoda]

I think so, no.

[Trevor Noah]

They argue, people are now disagreeing. Fun. I hear you.

[Anele Mdoda]

Look at. Look at South Africa. Look at the anc.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Anele Mdoda]

Where we were all about one thing, even when we get along guys, even in a group of friends. You know that WhatsApp group where there was nine of you and the next thing in that nine, six of you slipped to the side. Do you know what I'm saying? It's. That is human nature.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

So Anel is right. There will always be disagreements. What I'm saying is when things are okay, the disagreements are inconsequential.

[Anele Mdoda]

Yes.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

So there can never be prosperity for all, because in order for people to prosper, there needs to be productivity, and the productivity needs to come from somewhere. Now, what happens is you do get certain instances where there are more resources than there are those that deplete the resources. What it means is the model seems like it's working for a lot longer, but it's really not. The model is always deteriorating. That's just the nature of the model. You could be living in the Garden of Eden, but the more you procreate, the more you're gonna run out of fruit in that garden.

[Trevor Noah]

Don't go anywhere because we got more. What now after this? This is where I disagree. I think a lot of the scarcity that we think is real in the world isn't real. That's the first thing. And I think a lot of it is created by institutions and companies that need you to consume. So, for instance, a simple example is your phone. Right. Everyone has the new iPhone. Until Apple releases the next iPhone. It is literally even the day before launch you have the latest iPhone and then one day later you now have an old iPhone. Right, you're right.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

The issue is not scarce scarcity, it's about the distribution of resources.

[Trevor Noah]

That's. But that's why, that's what the problem. What I'm saying is I, I agree completely. I'm saying we are and we have been and look, there may not be a perfect world for this, but I think there's also a lot of artificial scarcity and a lot of artificial. I agree with distribution that has now like.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

And it's at an all time high.

[Anele Mdoda]

Yeah, guys, I agree with you.

[Trevor Noah]

The perfect example is water. Guys, I don't understand how we live in a world where water is owned by companies and we are all going to have to buy water from corporations, guys, everywhere in the world.

[Anele Mdoda]

You read that about L. A that a couple owns Global Water in la.

[Trevor Noah]

It's a farming, farming family. They own like water. You're like, how do you own water?

[Anele Mdoda]

Who did you buy it from?

[Trevor Noah]

But that's my point.

[Anele Mdoda]

Who owned it before you?

[Trevor Noah]

But that's my point because the water goes under my house as well. How come I can't stop the water? And do you see what I'm saying? So now, Cesar, I get what you're saying economically, but I'm saying that's why all of these things. I worry that we are going to hit too many at the same time.

[Anele Mdoda]

Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

And that thing is going to be. It will be. It will be. I don't know if it will be a revolution, but I think we are, we are on track. Unless there's some sort of correction somewhere. We are only on track for a like mass ending, correction type thing, revolution, whatever you want to call it. I cannot see another way.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Well, luckily all of this has been thought of. Even the thing you just mentioned now about water going under your house.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

So for example, the Romans, because they came out with land ownership, they kind of, they basically had a definition of what land ownership is. Right. It'll be, I guess the square meters or whatever the measurements will be.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

And then it'll be everything on and above the ground belongs to you. Everything below the ground that belongs to the state.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

That's for example, what our mining laws are based on here in South Africa. Right. So if the water is flowing on top of your ground, that's your water, but the underground water is not yours.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes, but the problem is the state.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Now is it Fair. It's obviously not fair, but I hear you.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes, but. And what is a state? A state is a collection of people. It's a fiction that we've all agreed to. So now the problem is when the states sell it to private people, where do we end up in revolution? So, by the way, Cesar is not helping me at all because he's affirming everything I'm saying. Yeah. Imagine if we were doing that with your. Imagine we're doing that.

[Anele Mdoda]

It was supposed to happen that way. But you guys also did that with me. That it's supposed to happen.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no, no.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

It's like NASA's second album. It was written.

[Anele Mdoda]

Yes, thank you, Joe Biden.

[Trevor Noah]

But here's what. Remember what my original statement was.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

I'm worried that the experiment is failing because remember, what we're also doing as humans is we're constantly trying to undermine the natural order of things. We do it with our health. Right. So back in the day, your shoulder, you would be gone. Now you may not be gone. Yeah, right. And I think this is something that's important to understand is that one of the main things that makes humans humans is that we've challenged the very fundamental order and nature of life and the.

[Anele Mdoda]

World, and we find it under progression.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, but. But we fight it. So we go, actually, maybe you shouldn't die of an infection. And then you go, maybe you shouldn't die at all.

[Anele Mdoda]

Remember the guy you interviewed?

[Trevor Noah]

Yes, exactly.

[Anele Mdoda]

Or maybe he shouldn't die at all.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, right. So. So the reason I say I'm wor. I'm. I'm sad and I'm worried that the experiment is failing is because it was an experiment, people thought that if you put goods and services or if you say that things are going to be manufactured in poor countries, it's going to bring them up. And then that'll free up the developed countries to do different types of jobs, and it'll bring them up, and then they will sell their ideas and it'll bring them up and they'll. This beautiful loop. This beautiful loop. This beautiful loop. And we will all raise. What is that? Rising tides raise all boats. That's what we thought. What we didn't know was some people have boats that have water pumps and they're taking a lot more water and the tides are not rising everything. So now that's what I was saying is my worry when my good friend was kind enough to say, you see.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

This was a good episode.

[Anele Mdoda]

Yeah.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

And I like the fact that there's no solution. We just Threw a bomb out there, like, bye, hear your worries. Bye.

[Trevor Noah]

This guy.

[Anele Mdoda]

That's it. That's on you.

[Trevor Noah]

I actually see a very hopeful future for your story with your son.

[Anele Mdoda]

Of course.

[Trevor Noah]

That's what I mean. So I go like, oh, you just have a problem or a worry about a potential problem, but I feel like there's many solves for the thing leaving the house.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

That's funny.

[Trevor Noah]

So that's. That's. As a friend, that's. And then my friend has said to me, no, no, don't worry. All your worries are correct and it's gonna end. That's what he just did to me. Because you must never be a doctor, by the way.

[Anele Mdoda]

Actually, he needs to be a doctor.

[Trevor Noah]

No, no. He would be the person who just walks in and says to you, you're out. Statistically speaking, you were gonna die anyway. So, I mean, I don't even know why you want to do the surgery.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Save your money, spend time with your family.

[Trevor Noah]

You see, that's what he would be saying to you.

[Anele Mdoda]

No, you should not be a doctor.

[Trevor Noah]

Be the shortest episodes of House ever. Just walk in. So, okay, let's do sizzle's. So your concern is you worry that.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

So generally speaking, as you correctly point out, the world is continually deteriorating.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

And I feel like.

[Trevor Noah]

Wait, wait, wait. I'm not saying continually. Let me be on record of saying that. I think we're in like cycles. And I'm saying, no, we are in cycles. Okay.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Obviously in the cycle, it's continuing to be.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay. Okay.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

We haven't hit rock bottom yet.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay, great.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Only gonna stop deteriorating heat, drop bottom. Then we're gonna need to rebuild.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay, cool.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Now, I worry that in the short term, because life is relatively short. Right. To raise a kid in that environment is going to be very tumultuous. And the tools that personally I had to navigate the world, I see those tools becoming more and more useless every day.

[Trevor Noah]

Can you give us an example of those tools?

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

I mean, just general things like, for example, bullying. A very simple example. Right. There used to be a safe haven for bullying. These days there is for bullying.

[Trevor Noah]

Sorry, sorry, I feel like I'm mishearing you. Safe haven for people being bullied from being bullied?

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yes.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, okay. I thought you were saying there was a safe haven for bullying. No.

[Anele Mdoda]

Really?

[Trevor Noah]

You're also like a weird thinker. You could be the kind of person who says that back in my protector.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Bullies.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, you were like, back in. Bullies could find a place, dude. You're the kind of person who could say that.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Look, bullies do bring character.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay?

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

But I don't think we.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay, okay, sorry. So you're saying so you could get.

[Anele Mdoda]

What was the safe haven?

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

So you could get bullied. And then at 2:30, the bell would ring, you'd be like, sure, that's so.

[Trevor Noah]

Great, Mom, I'm going home.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Then you'd be in your mom's car and then be like, mom, you never believe it. Eh, these guys are gonna beat me up. And then you pissed up right in time. And now the guys are beating you up in your mom's car. And your mom's like, why are you in your street? And they bumbling you?

[Anele Mdoda]

You know what I mean?

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

So that's just one simple example.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay, got it.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

And again, it speaks to that thing of yours, the interconnectedness. Because we didn't prepare for all of this 100%. 100%. And when you're a kid, you really don't have the broadened vision to know actually what I can do. Just turn off my phone.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. I think as adults, we also don't necessarily have that. It took me, I'm trying to think of when this changed. Maybe somewhere pandemic. Ish. Somewhere. It took me a long time to realize if I don't know it, if I don't even acknowledge, it's not even happening. I know it sounds like a weird thing. People are like, no, but people are saying things about me on. And I'm like, yeah, it's not really happening. Unless you know, because I think you.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Feel like our youth kind of primed us for this, though.

[Trevor Noah]

In what way specifically?

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Like our youth in showbiz, dude, we came out in a time where I guess the review would have been, hey, the ratings, the show sucks. Ok? Ok. That's why when I see the kids that grew up now in the social media age. Yeah, right. And I see how seriously they take.

[Anele Mdoda]

Social media and how they crumble when someone does something.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

I can understand it because for them they were made by social media. If you're made by social media, you feel like you can be destroyed by social media.

[Trevor Noah]

Ok. To channel my very wise younger brother, he would argue that we. And the youngest of our generation is experiencing that. He says they're not. He's like, you guys, like Bane? He's almost like, ah, you merely dropped me. You merely dropped on social media. I was forged in social media. Like, he goes, no, no, no, no. You and your youngest think that. That he says, our generation, we're so robust because we were built by that he's like, we don't. We actually don't care. He says, we don't really care about the thing, and we don't. He even showed me, like, aesthetically disagree with. No, but I'm saying he showed me, like, aesthetically. Go look at, like, Gen Z and. And lower. Look at their Instagram, their TikTok. It's not aesthetic. Like Millennials and above. It's not. They're not trying to show you a perfect picture of avocado toast.

[Anele Mdoda]

No.

[Trevor Noah]

They just want to show you a vibe. They might even show you the crumbs. That's their picture. And his argument is that we think of it as being something that is infinitely harder to tackle. But he's like, it is only the reality that they have. Right? So he goes, I think your situation was worse.

[Anele Mdoda]

He's like, because we entered striving for perfection because we didn't know how this thing works.

[Trevor Noah]

No, but not even. Like, he argues. He goes, yeah, you get. We get bullied online. But he's like, but you guys got bullied, like, physically, and there wasn't really stuff you guys could do about it when it was happening physically. And then he goes, I can make friends online. I can look at a video on TikTok about how to be a boxer. But he argues that their reality is different to ours, but it comes with its own pros and cons, and they're fine with it.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yeah, I think he's correct. In fact, in that analogy, I would think I'm somebody like Tony Hawk. I'm like the geriatric in a skate park.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, yeah, that's how you are on social media.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Because I'm with the kids, throwing the mud. Heavy, heavy, heavy.

[Anele Mdoda]

Because you were throwing. You were literally throwing the mud on the playground. Okay, I. I think your brother's right, but I think there's very few of them that are like that. The rest of them. And if you. If. If you had to look at the stats around, you know, mental wellness and anxiety and all of that, a lot of them are not thinking like that. So for me, your brother is the hippie.

[Trevor Noah]

One thing I will throw into that. Yeah, we'll wrap. We'll wrap. One thing.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Reading like this, even calling me.

[Trevor Noah]

All right, so one thing I will say to that is, I think it's the same guys. One bully at my school terrorized three standards, like, three grades. One bully. Do you understand what reach that is? Yeah, one guys. One bully would come to the tuck shop cafeteria for those in America and would take anything and Everything and do whatever they. So I understand what you're saying, but I go. I feel like we were also that generation. I watched people get terrorized by one bully, and a whole school could have done something and didn't do anything. And we were all just like, that's them. You know, you're just like, pray to God they don't come your way.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And so what I'm arguing is I don't necessarily think that they are softer or like. I just think that because it's so foreign to us, we see it as being more that way, but I don't necessarily think it's.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

And the same problems, just a different iteration. Yes, but that's how generations are.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes, that's what I think. And then I actually think the mental health thing. I think it is more important to look at our communities, like our real communities versus our social ones. I think we take for granted. Forget the bully, forget the social media, forget all of that. We take for granted what a physical touch was. Yes, I got bullied, but at least my bully touched me.

[Anele Mdoda]

Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

Do you know what I'm saying? At least my bully.

[Anele Mdoda]

At least I felt my bully.

[Trevor Noah]

We'll continue this. Go catch your flights.

[Anele Mdoda]

Bye. Bye.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Get out of you. I love you guys.

[Anele Mdoda]

We love you so much.

[Trevor Noah]

All right. Go catch your flights.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Don't get bullied, whatever.

[Trevor Noah]

Or if you do, make sure they touch you.

[Anele Mdoda]

The thing around touching is so that I can assess your strength. Because when you. When. When you are bullying me and. And you touch me, I can assess. Okay, maybe I can fight you one day.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Anele Mdoda]

But digitally, I don't know what your strength is.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, that. That is one thing. I think that's worse.

[Anele Mdoda]

That's the only reason I'll agree with you with the bully touching you.

[Trevor Noah]

Okay. I'll throw you another one that you might agree with. And I mean this genuinely.

[Anele Mdoda]

Every kid who bullied me made you a better person.

[Trevor Noah]

No. Saw me as a human being. And I saw them as a human being because they didn't perpetually bully me. And they were not perpetually bullies. They were kids who played sports, who ate food, who caught the bus, who. And then they were the same way. Like, your job doesn't define you. Hopefully in life. They were like, no, I work as a bully, but I'm also still a human being. They laughed. I remember walking into school and the bully would be there and be like, trevor, you. And I'd be like, ah, bruh. Come on, Come in.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

And then he'd be like, okay, but tomorrow that for me, I don't see anyone doing online, because I know this sounds like a crazy thing to say, but even though that bully was a bully, because we shared the same space, because we breathed the same air, because we looked into each other's real eyes, I knew who that bully was. I knew their name. I knew where they lived. They were a human being.

[Anele Mdoda]

But that's because with digital, everything is just fleeting and passing.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. And fake.

[Anele Mdoda]

Yeah. But I'll raise you that people that I have, like, squared up with with on digital, there are people that have become my friends because every day we're gonna have a go with each other.

[Trevor Noah]

Really?

[Anele Mdoda]

And yes. And then after a while, you're like, you know, you're not half bad because you must remember something. Somebody who's wrong can't be wrong all the time. And somebody who's right can't be right all the time.

[Trevor Noah]

Oh, I like that.

[Anele Mdoda]

So even with people that I've disagreed with, you know, like aggressively on. On X, sooner or later, because you still get retweeted by other people, I'm like, you know, I usually speak nonsense, but today I can agree with what you're saying. Right, so we agreeing with each other. It's just that with digital, there's this thing of, I've said it, it's done, My phone is off, I'm gone. Right. But now with your bully, they were coming back to you every day. You could. You. There was a chance of you seeing them again and again and again. So back to what you were saying about community. Think of the first days on Twitter. That was a community.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, it was.

[Anele Mdoda]

And I think right now, it's just that you're dealing with the. You wouldn't allow anyone to just touch you like that, even in your physical sense when you're a child, because you're like, I don't know you.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, I have a bully.

[Anele Mdoda]

Uban, when.

[Trevor Noah]

Who are.

[Anele Mdoda]

Who are you? Right. And I think that what you. You going back to is that wherever you are, be it at work, within your family, whatever, just find your sense of community.

[Trevor Noah]

It's. It's funny, you know, you say, yeah, there's. There's something you stumbled on. I feel like in one part that's really special and that is we've lost that even. Even fighting, at least you are connecting with another person. I know it sounds crazy, but even having a back and forth, at some point, you will see each other as people.

[Anele Mdoda]

You know, when Caesar almost quoted President Joe Biden, let me quote President Obama at his first inauguration where he said, I will listen to you, especially when we disagree.

[Trevor Noah]

Huh?

[Anele Mdoda]

Huh? You must listen to people that you disagree with. And that's the problem with, I would say, the Trump Party party, is that there's just a notion that I don't have to listen to you because I disagree with you. But what if in the two minutes of me talking, you agree with 30 seconds of what I'm saying now? You're doing yourself an injustice of just totally disregarding me because I'm not a Trump Party.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah, but I. I think both ways, actually. And I think that's. I've always said America's biggest struggle for me in its politics is that it is binary. So Americans think and have been taught that it is this or that. But now I realized, and I realize every time I come home to South Africa, I'm like, wow, we have such a complex. Perfect example is the. I'm an ANC bitch. The woman on the fly. Safe flight. This is a black woman who gets drunk on a flight, starts berating the. Like the, the flight attendants.

[Anele Mdoda]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Throws things at other passengers, and now passengers, black and white alike, team up against her. Yeah. But even then, the commentary of it, the pro ANC people, they're against her, and then black people at large are against her and white people. And I was like, oh, yeah, I don't really see many of those types of things happen in America.

[Anele Mdoda]

A white guy coming up for her, and he wrote a thread about what could have gone wrong. And we must understand. I was just like, okay, yeah, but we have reached Milele.

[Sizwe Dhlomo]

But.

[Trevor Noah]

But what? Exactly. So what I mean is like, like when you are told that there is one of two solutions, you will then think that there's one or two solutions. And so you will be forced to pick between one of two solutions.

[Anele Mdoda]

And you know what I mean? And you'll believe that if I pick one, I can't like certain elements of the other one.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes. Because you've been told. Whereas. Whereas when you come from a place where they go. No, no, no, no, no. As you said earlier with the anc, even the ANC was multiple coalitions in one thing. Right.

[Anele Mdoda]

And that's what made it work. Because you know what you find then you find accountability. And, and, and me constantly having to behave in a way that proves that my theory is the one that we should go with right now. When. When we're all thinking the same. Right. When we're all thinking the same. Isn't that a dictatorship?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. No, this is. This is not actually you know what's funny? You actually made me worry less.

[Anele Mdoda]

Oh, really?

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah.

[Anele Mdoda]

Okay.

[Trevor Noah]

No, really. Because I think to myself, even in the moment, this is gonna sound like a crazy thing, even for me to say to myself, but, like, the one upside of revolutions is that they bring people together. Or like, one of the upsides, maybe, depending on where the revolution's going. But it is like it. You know, the people come together. Like the. You know, you think of, like, the Berlin Wall coming down, you think of, like, the Soviet Union collapsing, you think of. Of Cuba, you think, yeah. It's like it brings people together. And maybe that's what's. Maybe that's what we're living in. Maybe life is a constant. Yo. Yo. Of humans being pulled apart and then being pulled back together. And maybe we create things that pull us apart. Walls at our houses, you know, tinted windows in our cars. Things that isolate us. And then something comes along, everything from an earthquake to a fire.

[Anele Mdoda]

And then you need that person.

[Trevor Noah]

And then all of a sudden. Yeah. All of a sudden, we're now back together. And it's. It's interesting to think of, like, us always being forced to come back together, whether we like it or not.

[Anele Mdoda]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Because, like, literally, whether we like it.

[Anele Mdoda]

Or not, whether you like it or.

[Trevor Noah]

Not, humans are going to get.

[Anele Mdoda]

We're gonna be back here together.

[Trevor Noah]

Yeah. And we don't know what it'll be.

[Anele Mdoda]

Yeah.

[Trevor Noah]

Huh. I like that. See, once Sizwe left, my worries left as well.

[Anele Mdoda]

No, but you need the Grim. The Grinch.

[Trevor Noah]

The funny thing is, he's not even Grinchy. If he was a Grinch, it would be better. He's an AI.

[Anele Mdoda]

It's his delivery.

[Trevor Noah]

You know, like when you watch those movies where, like, with, like, the robot just says, like, straight up, they just go, like, humankind needs to be eliminated. Then you're like, excuse me. It appears to me that being human is suboptimal. Yeah, but I'm asking you, what's a better way to do my garden? The best way is to not have a garden.

[Anele Mdoda]

It's gonna die anyway.

[Trevor Noah]

It's gonna die. Die anyway. The same way you will die. If I end you, then you do not have to worry about the garden. Yo, yo, yo. Sisue, Sisue. I'm looking for a solution. Yes. And I presented the ultimate solution to you. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[Anele Mdoda]

Solution is death.

[Trevor Noah]

Yes. This is why you're a mom and he isn't.

[Anele Mdoda]

As a parent, you just have to be the eternal optimist. And. And.

[Trevor Noah]

And that's true.

[Anele Mdoda]

And. And but then it's so difficult to be the eternal optimist. But then finding hard the places to be hard inside of that. Cuz you have to be hard at times because discipline has to happen.

[Trevor Noah]

Damn.

[Anele Mdoda]

You know, so you, you, you know what it is? It's a yo, yo. Yeah, we, we separate but we're going to come together cuz somebody has to drive you to school.

[Trevor Noah]

I love that. Thank you. Ani. Thanks for joining me. Thank you. And thank you, sis. In your absence, what now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin and Jodi Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackel. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing and mastering by Hannis Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of what Now.