Podcast Summary: "Heritage, MAGA, Venezuela, Trump, and the Great Ben Sasse"

Podcast: What Really Matters with Walter Russell Mead
Host: Tablet Magazine
Date: December 23, 2025
Featuring: Walter Russell Mead & Jeremy Stern

Main Theme / Purpose

This episode unpacks seismic shifts in American conservatism, the fracturing of influential institutions like the Heritage Foundation, internal rifts within the MAGA/Trump movement, ongoing U.S.-Venezuela tensions, and an assessment of foreign policy a year into Trump’s second term. It concludes with a personal reflection on Ben Sasse’s legacy and character.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Disintegration and Identity Crisis at the Heritage Foundation

[00:41–07:20]

• Jeremy Stern outlines a wave of resignations at Heritage Foundation over allegations of antisemitism and controversial leadership choices.
• Walter Russell Mead examines the significance (“This is actually news... Heritage has been a really important voice and institution on the right for a very long time.” [02:15]) and how Heritage’s position as a mainstream—but edgy—conservative institution became unsustainable, especially as the right’s boundaries drift further into extreme territory.
  • He characterizes Heritage as historically being “the edgelord among Washington Republican think tanks.”
  • The current controversy, he argues, stems from the institute trying to keep legitimacy with both moderate and radical factions, and failing to successfully navigate those competing pressures.
  • Notable Quote: “There are just some things that you can’t do and one of them would be to let anybody think that there wasn’t a bright, bright red line between you and racism and hate.” (WRM, [06:10])
  • Predicts that Heritage may be betting on regaining legitimacy by being marginalized now, and aligning with growing radical elements.

2. Fractures in the MAGA Movement and the Turning Point USA Conference

[07:20–14:29]

• Jeremy Stern summarizes the Turning Point USA America Fest, which was rife with disputes over the movement’s future following the loss of founder Charlie Kirk.
  • The right’s “big tent” is tested by arguments over inclusion of openly white nationalist figures like Nick Fuentes and growing skepticism of Israel.
• Walter Russell Mead emphasizes the dependency of MAGA and similar movements on charismatic leaders:
  • “The unifying force is Donald Trump. There is no other unifying force. And without Trump’s presence, it falls apart into all kinds of squabbling factions.” ([09:04])
  • With Kirk’s death, TPUSA suffers the same problem—no central authority, leading to “restless swirl of elements looking for that lightning strike towering figure.”
  • Mead likens the feuding to cartel wars: “...when you have a struggle between various drug cartels, that’s when you have the murders... I’m not trying to compare the online right to drug cartels, but what I am saying is...we are likely to see some real infighting, prolonged infighting, until the movement starts to crystallize, until somebody rises up and pulls people together again.” ([11:40])
• On Trump’s prospective influence in his eventual succession:
  • “He will want to hold that power, I think.” ([13:46])
  • Mead predicts Trump won’t anoint a successor until the last possible moment, wanting to avoid becoming a “lame duck” and to guarantee protection for himself and his family.

3. The Venezuela-U.S. Oil Ship Stand-Off

[14:29–17:46]

• Jeremy Stern details Trump administration moves to seize Venezuelan oil tankers, intended to pressure President Maduro.
• Walter Russell Mead: This is more a continuation (“pot still boiling”) than truly new news. He characterizes Trump’s Venezuela policy as high on brinkmanship and tactical improvisation: “Very often, Trump jumps into things without a specific end state in mind... makes his next move, see what they do…” ([16:36])
• The international outcry (China, Brazil) is dismissed as mostly “so what,” noting neither can or will intervene significantly.

4. Year-in-Review: Trump’s Foreign Policy

[17:48–29:26]

• Jeremy Stern provides overview: Even accounting for chaos and perceived corruption, Mead argues U.S. global standing has improved in some respects.
• Walter Russell Mead:
  • Main issue pre-Trump: U.S. alliances (EU, Japan) were weak from denial and “free riding.” Trump, uniquely, forced allies to confront unreliable American security guarantees, stimulating overdue defense investments and shaking off complacency:
    • “The rise of isolationism in America isn’t simply a... return to 1920s know-nothing geopolitics as much as it is, in part, at least a reaction of anger at free riding.” ([20:50])
    • Trump’s unpredictable, destabilizing tactics forced allies to “get mad” enough to act in their own (and U.S.) interest.
  • In the Middle East, Trump’s pressure on Iran and the Assad regime, and support for Israel, improved America’s standing relative to a year ago, even if progress remains fraught and “the methods are somewhat unconventional. The speeches are extremely unconventional.” ([28:58])
  • On Venezuela: Prioritizing the Western Hemisphere is strategically sound, especially during global tension.

5. Trump’s Place in Foreign Policy Tradition

[29:26–31:34]

• Jeremy Stern asks whether Trump still fits “Jacksonian” foreign policy, or if he is now sui generis.
• Walter Russell Mead: Trump remains quintessentially Jacksonian in spirit—“Trump’s sense of unconstrained American sovereignty, very much like Andrew Jackson’s. Trump’s attack on entitled civil servants... Andrew Jackson is right there.” ([30:23])
• Notably, Mead pushes back on portrayals of Jackson (and therefore Trump) as “isolationist.”

6. Reflections on Ben Sasse and a New Year’s Resolution

[31:41–33:47]

• Walter Russell Mead responds to news of Ben Sasse’s cancer diagnosis with moving praise:
  • Even Sasse’s political adversaries express respect, underlining his integrity and humanity.
  • “Ben absolutely has principles that he will not budge on at whatever cost. But he also has a deep regard for the humanity of everybody and a clear sense of his own fallibility.” ([32:35])
• Mead’s resolution: “I want to be more like Ben Sasse.” ([33:26])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Heritage’s dilemma:
  “For an institution like Heritage, whose donors and whose fellows kind of go, you know, straddle that range, it gets harder and harder to maintain your unity without blowing up.” (Walter Russell Mead, [03:20])
• On MAGA’s “strongman” problem:
  “Without Trump…it falls apart into all kinds of squabbling factions.” (WRM, [09:10])
• Comparison to gang conflict:
  “...when you have a struggle between various drug cartels, that’s when you have the murders. And then when one cartel emerges, the murders stop...” (WRM, [11:38])
• On Trump’s leadership style:
  “Very often Trump jumps into things without a specific end state in mind. He just kind of moves into something, makes his move, see what other people do, makes his next move, see what they do, makes his next move...” (WRM, [16:38])
• On Trump as Jackson’s heir:
  “Trump’s sense of unconstrained American sovereignty, very much like Andrew Jackson’s. Trump’s attack on entitled civil servants…” (WRM, [30:23])
• On Ben Sasse’s legacy:
  “He also has a deep regard for the humanity of everybody and a clear sense of his own fallibility. And he combines this with a dedication to the public interest as he sees it... I want to be more like Ben Sasse.” (WRM, [32:36] & [33:26])

Segment Timestamps

| Segment / Theme | Timestamp | |--------------------------------------------------------|---------------| | Heritage Foundation Crisis | 00:41–07:20 | | MAGA & TPUSA Conference Schism | 07:20–14:29 | | Venezuela Oil Stand-Off | 14:29–17:46 | | Year-in-Review: Trump Foreign Policy | 17:48–29:26 | | Trump in U.S. Foreign Policy Tradition | 29:26–31:34 | | Ben Sasse Reflection & Mead’s Resolution | 31:41–33:47 |

Tone and Takeaways

• The tone is incisive, a mix of academic depth, skepticism, and wry humor—typical of Mead.
• Both hosts are frank about the internal collapse and realignments within American conservatism.
• Mead’s perspective is simultaneously detached (“Machiavellian”) and rooted in concern for principled public life, as shown in his final remarks on Sasse.
• The episode is both a snapshot of an unsettled political landscape and an exhortation to integrity in public affairs.

Summary/For New Listeners

If you missed the episode, you’ll come away understanding:

• Key fractures defining the American right as 2025 closes
• How influential institutions like Heritage are failing to manage extreme elements
• Why the MAGA coalition is unstable absent strongman leadership
• How the Trump administration’s foreign policy tactics are upending alliances, for better or worse
• A heartfelt call, via Ben Sasse’s example, for principle and empathy in public service