Ep 467: I love literary fiction... don't I?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Ep 467: I Love Literary Fiction... Don't I?

Host: Anne Bogel
Guest: Phoebe Mellinger
Release Date: February 25, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 467 of "What Should I Read Next?", host Anne Bogel welcomes Phoebe Mellinger, a 31-year-old avid reader from South Philadelphia. Phoebe, an avid book thrifter with a personal library of nearly 200 books, shares her evolving relationship with literature, exploring how her reading tastes have transformed over the past year. This episode delves into Phoebe's journey from consistent genre preferences to a more eclectic and exploratory reading habit, seeking guidance to navigate her extensive TBR (to-be-read) pile.

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Phoebe's Reading Journey and Personal Background

Phoebe Mellinger opens up about her life in South Philadelphia, balancing a remote tech job based in California with teaching ballet barre classes locally. She humorously notes her recent foray into sourdough baking, saying:

"[...] and you're glad about that. It's a good thing for your reading life."
[00:07] Anne Bogel

Phoebe highlights her lifelong passion for reading, which began in childhood under her mother's influence, indulging in classics like "Lord of the Rings" and "Gone with the Wind." However, during her graduate studies and the subsequent pandemic, her reading tempo slowed, prompting a significant shift in her literary preferences.

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Evolving Reading Tastes and Exploration

Phoebe describes a pivotal moment last year when her usual genres—historical fiction and thrillers—left her feeling burnt out and uninspired. Seeking revitalization, she ventured into new territories:

• Weird Girl Books: Introducing her to unconventional narratives, such as "Bunny" by Mona Awad, which offered an immersive escape into the surreal.

  "[...] it's nice to be so immersed in something that is so unrealistic or kind of crazy sometimes."
  [06:30] Phoebe Mellinger

• Speculative and Horror Novels: Despite being a self-professed "scaredy cat," Phoebe found herself drawn to the emotional depth and haunting elements in horror literature.

• Literary Fiction: A newfound appreciation for character-driven stories that delve into the human condition and emotional complexities.

Phoebe reflects on her struggle to discern genuine interest from the allure of enthusiastic recommendations:

"[...] I feel it's become hard to discern the difference between what sounds good and what may actually be a good fit for me."
[06:15] Phoebe Mellinger

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Favorite and Least Favorite Books

Favorite Books Discussed:

1. "The God of the Woods" by Liz Moore
   Phoebe praises this literary mystery set in the 1970s for its compelling narrative and deep exploration of personal demons and family dynamics.

   "Everyone has their own journey. What is it like to lose a child or to lose a sibling to have a lot of like, pressure placed on you?"
   [12:10] Phoebe Mellinger

2. "Remarkably Bright Creatures" by Shelby Van Pelt
   This novel, featuring a talking octopus named Marcellus, resonated deeply with Phoebe for its magical realism and heartfelt portrayal of self-discovery and interconnectedness.

   "[...] Marcellus was like a cute talking octopus, but I just thought it was really well done and really unique."
   [13:50] Phoebe Mellinger

3. "Milk Fed" by Melissa Broder
   Phoebe commends Broder's ability to articulate complex, often taboo emotions with creative precision, making the protagonist's struggles both relatable and profoundly moving.

   "Melissa Broder is exceptional at writing about kind of the weird, maybe like squidgy feelings that we all have about ourselves."
   [15:30] Phoebe Mellinger

Least Favorite Book:

• "Tress of the Emerald Sea"
  Despite positive recommendations from friends, Phoebe found this historical fiction novel too light and lacking the emotional depth she seeks, leading her to stop reading it midway.

  "[...] it just felt a little bit immature to me."
  [23:50] Phoebe Mellinger

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Current Reading Endeavors and Challenges

Phoebe shares her recent reads, including:

• "Is How You Lose the Time War"
  Discovering this book through Anne's recommendation, Phoebe was captivated by its poetic portrayal of love between two time-traveling operatives.

  "[...] the descriptions and the way that it was written, the way it describes love [...] really spectacular."
  [24:50] Phoebe Mellinger

She discusses her ongoing challenge of managing an ever-growing collection of unread books, emphasizing her desire to prioritize meaningful reads over impulsive purchases influenced by others' enthusiasm.

"[...] I'm just kind of looking for where to dig in so I can make a dent in this large library of mine."
[34:47] Phoebe Mellinger

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Navigating Descriptions and Self-Doubt in Literary Discussions

Phoebe expresses uncertainty about articulating her reading experiences without relying on literary jargon, fearing it might come across as unsophisticated. Anne encourages her to speak from personal experience rather than conform to academic terminology.

"[...] I just think that those are things that I like in a book, if I'm using those phrases correctly."
[26:06] Phoebe Mellinger

Anne reassures her, emphasizing the value of genuine expression over complex vocabulary, fostering a more authentic connection with fellow readers.

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Anne's Recommendations Tailored to Phoebe's Tastes

Anne delves into Phoebe's extensive list of 200 unread books, offering personalized recommendations based on her expressed preferences:

1. "Silver Nitrate" by Silvia Moreno-Garcia
   A darkly humorous thriller set in 1990s Mexico City, blending historical elements with supernatural horror—a perfect match for Phoebe's interest in horror and literary depth.

2. "Piglet" by Lottie Hazel
   Although Phoebe hasn't read it yet, Anne suggests it for its profound exploration of human emotions and complex character dynamics, aligning with Phoebe's appreciation for nuanced storytelling.

3. "Burnham Wood" by Eleanor Catton
   A literary mystery that intertwines Shakespearean tragedy with a unique setting in New Zealand, offering the intellectual stimulation Phoebe seeks.

4. "Babel" by R.F. Kuang
   Combining dark academia with magical realism, this novel explores linguistic power and colonialism, presenting the cerebral engagement Phoebe desires.

5. "Come and Get It" by Kylie Reid
   A dark campus comedy addressing complex themes like race and privilege, providing a multifaceted narrative that Phoebe might find both challenging and rewarding.

Phoebe resonates with Anne's suggestions, particularly appreciating how they intersect with her love for unique hooks, emotional depth, and explorative narratives.

"I do need to just kind of dive in because it is kind of like the quintessential or one of the quintessential dark academia."
[62:28] Phoebe Mellinger

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Closing Thoughts and Future Directions

As the episode wraps up, Phoebe feels validated and excited about her reading choices, embracing the confidence to explore her diverse interests without self-imposed constraints. Anne reinforces the importance of discovering one's genuine preferences and encourages Phoebe to continue her literary exploration with newfound assurance.

"Thank you so much, Anne."
[64:12] Phoebe Mellinger

Anne concludes by inviting listeners to engage with the podcast community, share their thoughts, and continue supporting the show through various platforms.

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Conclusion

Episode 467 offers an insightful look into the fluid nature of reading preferences, illustrating how personal growth and external influences can reshape one's literary landscape. Phoebe Mellinger's candid discussions highlight the joys and challenges of navigating an expansive book collection, underscoring the value of intentional reading choices. Anne Bogel's thoughtful recommendations serve as a beacon for readers seeking to redefine their next literary adventure.

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For more information or to apply to be a guest on the show, visit whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com.

Transcript

[Phoebe Mellinger]

There's no test to pass here. I'm not reading for academic purposes any longer, so it's okay.

[Anne Bogle]

And you're glad about that. It's a good thing for your reading life.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

I'm so glad to just be reading for enjoyment and not for a paper or a test.

[Max]

For sure.

[Anne Bogle]

Hey readers. I'm Anne Bogle and this is what Should I read Next? Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader. What should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest. Today's guest has a dilemma. I've heard from so many readers. What do I do when my reading tastes change and how can I define those tastes in the first place? Philadelphia dweller and avid book thrifter Phoebe Mellinger wrote into us here at what Should I read next podcast.com guest where you can submit to be on the show because she's had pretty consistent reading tastes for her whole life until last year when she noticed that her taste suddenly and vastly changed and her go to genres were suddenly leaving her feeling kind of bored and really burnt out. Reading is Phoebe's primary hobby, so she was desperate to find something new to her that delivered that same sense of readerly enjoyment her erstwhile go to genres once had. Phoebe embarked on a year of discovery, and her dabbling into new genres led her first two weird girl books and then to speculative and horror novels, then literary fiction. But she submitted to be on the show because she's not really sure where to go from here. She's getting a better feel for what she enjoys, yet has picked up quite a few books that aren't her cup of tea because, well, she says sometimes it feels like enthusiastic reading readers make everything sound good. She's interested in trying so many kinds of books, but feels it's become hard to discern the difference between what sounds good and what may actually be a good fit for her. Oh, and one more thing. Phoebe owns 200 books, thanks largely to all that book thrifting, and she would really love it if my recommendations to her today could be drawn from those titles. Thankfully, she sent me a spreadsheet of those books to peruse so I can do exactly that today. Let's get to it. Phoebe, welcome to the show.

[Max]

Thank you so much and I'm so excited to be here.

[Anne Bogle]

Oh, me too. Our whole team was so excited when we saw your submission, and I'm so excited to dig into the questions you raised today. But first, tell us about yourself. We want to give our readers a glimpse of who you are.

[Max]

So, I am 31. I live in South Philadelphia in the city proper with my husband and our dog, Max. He's a German shepherd. I work in techs. I work remotely here in Philly, but my company is based in California. I work with different colleges and institutions across the country, which is kind of cool. So it spans technology, but then also higher education, which is what my background is in. I travel a lot for work, and so reading is always something that I have with me. But when I'm not reading, I do teach bar here in Philly at a local studio. I have a really great community that I teach, like, ballet bar, the studio, fitness classes, and. And I love helping clients, you know, discover new workouts and chatting with them about their lives. And then when I'm not doing that. I also have been cooking a lot of sourdough lately. I think I'm, you know, four years late to the trend, but I have been in my kind of sourdough era the last few months, and I have really loved it. I bake bread almost weekly. It's a lot of bread for two people. But luckily there's a community pantry nearby that I can donate to because it's a lot of loaves.

[Anne Bogle]

I don't think you can ever be late to the sourdough trend. My mom made sourdough when I was growing up in the 80s. Like, you're just joining a long tradition. Is it weird that we're talking about sourdough on a reading podcast?

[Max]

Maybe. But I like, they kind of go in hand. They're like calming activities. Right. Bread reading, books, you know, they are.

[Anne Bogle]

And I feel like we are whole people, and there's not a hard division between our reading life and the rest of our life. Yes, exactly. Okay. Even though I'm asking you about it separately, tell us about your reading life.

[Max]

Yeah. So, I mean, reading is a big part of my life. I have been a lifelong, like, voracious reader. I started reading really young thanks to my mom, who is also quite a reader, and I advanced really early into some longer books. I remember trying to read, like, Lord of the Rings, and in, like, elementary school or, like, late elementary, early middle school, had a copy of Gone with the Wind, if that gives you an idea of, like, where I was going. And, you know, I've always loved it. Slowed down a Little bit in like high school and college. But after grad school I started to have time for reading again and really dive back into it. And then it took off during the pandemic like I think it did for so many people. And honestly the last few years my reading tastes have changed. So when I was younger I read a lot of historical fiction. I liked, you know, books about the Tudor era and things like that. And then as I got back into reading as an adult, I started up with thrillers. They were just fun, easy reads to kind of keep you really engaged, engrossed. And then I branched out into Romantasy.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

As I think a lot of people do right now.

[Max]

So I did read Acotar, A Court.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Of Thorns and Roses and all of.

[Max]

The kind of Sarah J. Maas verse, but found myself, you know, in the last year looking for something different. I feel like in 2024 I was in a huge reading slump trying to finish a thousand page Romantasy book. It took me months, which is really unusual for me. I just didn't want to finish it and I was burnt out and wasn't really called to any of the books that I usually would. There weren't any thrillers that really sounded good to me. It seemed like I just didn't want to go in the genre direction. Historical fiction didn't seem to appeal. And so I was like, I have to find something because reading is my hobby and if I don't have that I don't know what I'm going to do. And so I found myself on booktok and discovered many recommendations. But something that has kind of stuck with me is like this weird girl books and I'm making air quotes right now. I saw a lot about like Bunny by Mona Awad or things like that where it's like it's so out there that you have to be all in. And given all that was kind of happening in the world and things continue to change, it's nice to be so immersed in something that is like so unrealistic or kind of crazy sometimes. And so from there, you know, I currently am enjoying a lot of different genres. I've been enjoying literary fiction and speculative fiction. I read a lot of horror last year, which was really unusual for me, but found myself really liking it. And I'm kind of at a place where I'm enjoying a lot of books that kind of speak to the deeper meaning of life in the human condition and a lot about emotions and sometimes the things that we all know or experience but don't always talk About. I'm really drawn to, you know, authors and books that describe those feelings in their writing. So, yeah, that's kind of where I'm at. It's been a bit of a journey, but I'm really. I'm pleased with the types of books that I'm reading now. I feel like my reading is a lot more diverse than it used to be.

[Anne Bogle]

Ooh, okay. I have questions. I imagine we may be coming back to talk about your reading tastes changing and what was going on there. Do you have theories?

[Max]

I don't know. I do think in the pandemic, kind of like, I remember to 2020, I.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Read so many books, and I think.

[Max]

It was just the constant need to be distracted, which is where I was really into the thrillers, because you fly through them, but they are kind of intense, and you just kind of, like, go through thriller after thriller. There's always a twist. And then I think last year, it really was just like, I cannot read Romantasy anymore. And I had to really burnt myself out. There weren't any that sounded interesting. It just felt kind of all the same and kind of mundane to me. And so I wanted to just go in a complete opposite direction. Like, what is something that I have never really read before? I started to kind of want to learn about what literary fiction means. I was like, I want to have a more thoughtful reading experience, I guess I would say, and not just kind of reading, like, the classic genre fiction that everyone is reading. Not that that matters. I'm not better than anyone else, but that's kind of where my mind went. And so I actually remember it was April of 2024, and I was doing a little, like, reading retreat with two of my best friends, and we went to McKay's in Knoxville, Tennessee, which are the best used bookstores. If anyone's ever in Knoxville, you must go. And I found the Pisces by Melissa Broder, and it was like this short, super weird, crazy book, and I loved it. I read it in, like, a day, and I was like, I'm in. And it's kind of just branched out from there.

[Anne Bogle]

Phoebe, something that jumped out to me from your submission is you want to figure out more about your reading taste. Like, what do you like and why and what does it mean for your next choices? So we will be exploring those questions further, and we're going to do so through the lens of what you love and what you you don't. Are you ready to talk about the books that you brought with you today?

[Donna]

I am excited.

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[Anne Bogle]

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[Anne Bogle]

You know how this works. You're going to tell me three books you love, one book you don't, and what you've been reading lately. And we will talk about the picture it paints of your reading life. Phoebe, what's the first book you love?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

So I have to say before I dive in, this was really hard. And when I was thinking about my submission, I was like, I don't want to cheat, but I have like some 20, 24 faves. But I also have some all time faves and they're kind of, they kind of go together. There are a few themes, so I won't. I'll start with my 20 favorites, but I may have a couple others that I sneak in.

[Anne Bogle]

Love it.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

My first 2024 favorite is the God of the woods by Liz Moore. I know I'm not alone in that, but I really, really adored that book. It was unlike anything I've ever read. I wasn't sure, you know, I had said I don't want to go back into thrillers, but I had heard, you know, literary mystery. And I was like, well, I don't know what that means, but I like this. Out in a bit. And sure enough, it was everything that I loved. You know, some people said it was slow paced, but I flew through it. I loved that it was historical, but in the 70s, so it wasn't too far back or anything like that. And it was, I think in addition to the mystery that made it really compelling, it also spoke to like just the intricacies of being a person. Right. Everyone has their kind of demons that they're, they're working through. Everyone has their own journey. What is it like to lose a child or to lose a sibling to have a lot of like, pressure placed on you? I just think that there was so much additional commentary on being a human besides this. Also great mystery. And I, I will say sometimes, I guess the ending to books, I did not see that one coming. I was thoroughly surprised and I literally, I remember I closed the book and looked at my husband and was like, I loved that. Like, loved it. It was just instantly I knew it was a favorite. So I knew I had to bring.

[Donna]

It here today to talk to you about it.

[Anne Bogle]

Oh, that's such a great feeling to have about a book. Phoebe, what's the second book you love in 2024?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Remarkably Bright Creatures by Shelby Van Pelt. This was not new in 2024. It was just new to me. And what's funny is that, you know, as I was at this kind of Reader retreat with my best friends. They both read Remarkably Bright Creatures and I was stuck slogging through my thousand page book. But I finally picked it up a few months later towards the October, and I did a combination of reading and listening, listening to it. And when I tell you I was like fully in public on a plane and then in an airport sobbing like I have photo evidence. I was crying so hard because the book was so beautiful. I didn't know what to expect. I was kind of like a talking octopus. Like, okay, sure, I'm sure it's cute. And it ended up just being so thoughtful. And again, I love like the family dynamics and like the self discovery and just this like, you know, believing in kind of a greater good of like, there's we're all connected. And I. I did love the little bit of magical realism. I do find that I like that in the book. So, like, it obviously helps that Marcellus was like a cute talking octopus, but I just thought it was really well done and really unique, but also had some of those classic elements that I.

[Donna]

Love in a book.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Like I said, exploring just how you feel about yourself and how you relate to other people and all of that. So truly. I kick myself every time I think.

[Donna]

About how long I waited to read that book because it was so incredible.

[Anne Bogle]

I'm glad it landed for you. I need to give a PSA on this book to my past self and anyone who really needs to know this because I can't believe I missed it on the audiobook. But I listened to the audiobook. I really enjoyed it in that format. And it was only in the past, like six weeks that I've put together that Michael Urie of Shrinking and Younger, I love him as an actor, is the voice of Marcellus the Octopus in that book. I don't know why I didn't pick up on this when I was listening. It's not like I didn't look at the cast for the audiobook, but I just didn't connect him, the person with him, the Octopus. You know, maybe some people don't want to know that a human whose face they might recognize does bring the octopus to life. Maybe they just want to let Marcellus be Marcel Marcellus. But I was delighted to make that connection and was aghast that I hadn't put it together sooner. So there you go, everyone.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

We all just learned so much. I had no idea.

[Anne Bogle]

Phoebe, what's the third book you love?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Yeah, so I. I had some trouble, but I wanted to pick this one because I think it's not a book that I hear a lot of people talk about. And the reason that I love it is not necessarily about the story, but the way it's written. So my third book is called Milk Fed by Melissa Broder. And I find just in general, I do really like Melissa Broder's writing. I. She is exceptional at writing about kind of the weird, maybe like squidgy feelings that we all have about ourselves, but we like wouldn't say out loud or we wouldn't talk about. And she writes them in really creative ways. Like she takes it to the extreme of the most random thing possible. So in this book she's exploring, you know, feelings of self discovery as the main character kind of learns that she may be queer and is also struggling with an disorder, which there are some trigger warnings for this book. But I'll say that the way that Melissa writes the character's thoughts and how she describes the feeling of what it is to be like really worried about what you're going to eat next or like calories or all of these things, like, it is like she's been in the head of someone who experienced that, perhaps because she has. And I just thought the imagery was. Was unbelievable. I had just never really read writing like hers. Her book the Pisces that I mentioned, she does the same thing. Like she takes these feelings like heartbreak or passion or fear or anxiety and just writes them out in this beautiful way that you're like, yes, I've had that exact thought before. And so the book subject is kind of like random. Not really something that I would think about, but I found myself like, unable to put it down. And I still will recommend it if folks can handle kind of a more intense book as just like read this and tell me that you haven't had.

[Donna]

That internal thought in your head before.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

And been scared because you couldn't talk.

[Donna]

To anyone about it or you didn't want to.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

I just think she's like really remarkable at that.

[Anne Bogle]

However you described your experience of finding and reading the Pisces earlier. I haven't read that book, but I've listened to several of her other works on audio and I was just nodding like, yes, that is what it's like to read a Melissa Broder book.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Yes.

[Anne Bogle]

Where she's so matter of fact about some of the. I mean, I'm thinking of Death Valley. Like she's describing highly unrealistic things that still feel emotionally true. And that's such a talent.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Yes, yes. I think she's great for working through some of those hard emotions or experiences and humanizing them by making them completely like not human and sometimes unhinged but in a way that you're like, I feel better after reading that. I feel less alone.

[Anne Bogle]

That's a lovely way to feel after reading a book. Phoebe, you also reflected on your all time three books you love. Where did those reflections take you? What's on your list?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

I'll just share two. So first is Homegoing by Yaa Gyasi. I know a lot of people have spoken about this book, but it is all time my favorite book ever. I was so moved by her writing. I can't believe I think this was her debut and I'm like, I don't know how you did that.

[Anne Bogle]

She was like 26, right?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

I like Unfathomable. I think it was such a unique story. I loved that it spanned multiple generations and that there was kind of this like element of like where is this going or what is going to happen next? And even though it wasn't non fiction, she, the way that she spun some true events and then kind of dramatized them for fiction I thought was like magical. Like I just think it was so well done and so beautiful and at the time I really wasn't reading anything like it. I picked it up in my kind of like thriller phase and it's my first real experience, I think with true like literary fiction. And I just, I just loved it. I can't even, I can't even describe it other than to say that things that are like families and that kind of self exploration and long spans of time like all of that, I tend to love that in books and I.

[Donna]

Think it really started with homegoing.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

It's the same reason I think there are similar elements in like the God of the woods and some other books that I tend to really enjoy. My other all time favorite that I'll just quickly share is Ready Player One by Ernest Cline. I will say this is kind of my out of left field book, but when I say I have never recommended this to someone and not have them love it, I think it is like maybe my other most recommended book for everyone because once you start reading it, you just can't put it down. I don't play video games, I don't necessarily care about them, but I just picked this up again at McKinney's of all places and found myself immersed and was like, what is happening? I think it is such an adventure. You go through it so quickly and it does a fantastic job of bringing in this sci fi like fantastical world. That you don't need to have any background knowledge to get into. There isn't any, you know, pre read you don't have to know about like virtual reality or any of those things.

[Donna]

To be completely immersed.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

And I just love it. I just think it's such an experience and adventure and it's really not like anything else I read. I don't read a ton of sci fi, but that was one that I always go back to. I've recommended it to my husband. I've recommended it to my uncle who's like 70. I've recommended it to other girlfriends who have shared it with like their classrooms and things like that. It's just something that I think everybody likes because it's such a compelling story.

[Anne Bogle]

I love that for you. Okay. And I'm nodding along as someone who doesn't play video games. I mean, just like a little bit of Animal crossing that my kids coerced me into. That's the video game I played in the last 10 years. But really enjoyed that book. And of course also I'm thinking of tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. Right now. Don't care about video games. Love that book. Wanted to read all about the video games.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

That one has been on my list.

[Donna]

For a long time. I need to read it and I just haven't. It's terrible.

[Anne Bogle]

It's not terrible. You've been reading other things. But it is a book that explores the human experience. I mean, we're going to talk more about what you enjoy. But so far like that book is tracking for me with what you have enjoyed.

[Donna]

Okay, that's good to know. I'm glad to hear that.

[Anne Bogle]

Phoebe, tell me about a book now that was not a good fit for you.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

This was a little bit of a hard decision for me because I wanted to pick something that I felt did explain maybe on a broader level of kind of what I'm looking for, what doesn't work for me. So I'm okay reading a lot of books that are just fine. I don't need every single book to be a four or five star. I've accepted that as kind of part of my exploration is that I will pick up things that are just kind of like meh. And that's all right. It was good to have that knowledge. But I have have a goal for this year to dnf more books. Do not finish put them down. Which is hard for me. And my first one of this year was Tress of the Emerald Sea. This has been recommended to me by a lot of people. It's Just like a cute kind of palette cleanser. And I picked it up after I had just finished all the colors of the dark, which is lovely and dark, and I loved that. And I was like, maybe I'll try something different. And what I found is that it was too silly. I feel silly saying that, but it just. It was almost too light for what I was looking for. I do read books with heavier topics, and I'm okay with that. And I think there were just not enough stakes in the book. I didn't really care about the character. Like, yes, she had, like, cute quirks. And I thought that it was nice that I think he wrote it, like, you know, based on his wife. And that was like, oh, sweet. But I just found myself not wanting to pick it up because I didn't really care what was going to happen. I think, you know, it was kind of a love story, but it didn't feel like enough depth for me. And I didn't like the kind of breaking of the fourth wall of this character and kind of, like, spinning, like, silly tales. It just felt a little bit immature to me. And again, I'll say this is strange because, like, some of my best friends who share some favorite books with me recommended it, rated it five stars, and I, like, couldn't finish it. So that's what I broke. Because I think aligns with some of the things that I know I like in terms of the depth and the emotion and speaking on the human condition and all of those things. And while I'm fine to laugh when reading a book, I think I need.

[Donna]

A little bit more balance.

[Anne Bogle]

Phoebe, what have you been reading lately? This is where I get to hear the kinds of books that catch your eye that you're willing to take a chance on.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

I had a really great reading month, but a couple that really stick out. Just last week, I finished this Is how youw Lose the Time War. And I think I heard about this book on your show, and I found it in a thrift store for, like, a dollar. And I was like, yes, you're coming home with me. And I just thought it was so beautiful, you know, I don't know that I am. Am I sophisticated enough to be like, oh, the prose and. But it was, like, the descriptions and the way that it was written, the way it describes love, even though it's not humans and they're like robots and, like, the future and, you know, there's so many things that are kind of out there. The way that they describe falling in love and having this, like, hunger For. For one another was really spectacular, and I just thought that it was really sweet and thoughtful. I teared up a little bit and I really enjoyed that. It was. It was short, kind of quick, but I think it had a really big impact.

[Anne Bogle]

I heard that self doubt creep in about the vocabulary.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Yes.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay. One heard on this Is how youw Lose the Time War. I'm so glad that the universe put that in your path at the thrift shop for a dollar. Meant to be. But talk to me about sophistication and readerly vocabulary if you'd like. Do you want to?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Yeah, I do. This is something that I was like, can we have a side quest here? Because I'm just curious. So I am in a couple book clubs, and I do love to talk about books, but I feel like I use the same couple of words because I'm like, is that really what I'm talking about? So you know things like, is it prose? Is that what I'm looking for? Who are like, books that are really well written? There are some authors and books that I'm like, this is beautiful to read, even if the story as a whole is not, like, my favorite. I'm not obsessed with the story. I can appreciate the lines and the beautiful moments in the book. And I think that that's prose. I think that's what I'm talking about. Same thing with, like, imagery. Like, I feel like I know when I'm seeing it, but I'm not as.

[Donna]

Confident when I'm talking about that.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

But I do love books that have, you know, similarly to what I was.

[Donna]

Describing with Melissa Broder, where it's like.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Talking about something that, like, yes, I felt this in a way that just, like, describes it perfectly. And you can imagine that in your head. But I always do worry a little bit, especially I think because I'm new to, like, literary fiction, that I sound a little unsophisticated when I'm talking about it, because I'm like, I thought it was really pretty writing. And I'm like, no, no, that's not what I meant. And then I'm like, beautiful prose. Does that feel disingenuous? I'm still excited exploring some of that, but I. I think that those are things that I like in a book, if I'm using those phrases correctly.

[Anne Bogle]

All right, I hear you. I don't know that there's anything wrong with saying, I think that was really pretty writing. I love that you're not a jargon head. Like, the thing that I'm most interested in on the show in my regular life, anywhere else I'm talking about books is hearing what the reading experience was like for others readers. What caught their eye, what was kind of a put off what they didn't understand but eventually came to love what they didn't understand and still don't understand, but can't stop thinking about and why if they know it. And like, yeah, if you said, oh, the prose was just really striking, I would think that you meant that the words fell in the right order in the sentences in such a way that you like, stopped to notice. You didn't just absorb the story without the words being a barrier, but like, you noticed. Oh, I like the way that the author strung those words together. But have you seen book review bingo, like, on literary Twitter, back when Twitter was a thing?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

I know I've seen some versions of book review bingo.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay, what I'm picturing in my mind is this like little bingo card of 20 words. Actually, it would have to be like a five by five, right. Of 25 words a reader might use to describe a book. And the idea is that a review can call a book self effacing or smart or charming, well written, deeply emblematic of the human experience because they could squeeze that all into the bingo card. And so many times talking about books just feels like infinite combination of words that don't really mean something specific. They're just the kind of words that readers know, get used to describe books. And what I want to hear is, no, what was the reading experience really like for you? Like, don't tell me. The kind of words you might expect would be in a book review, but like, from the gut, not that you can't use your head, but from the gut, like, what did you feel? What do you think? And I hear you perhaps saying, like, it's good to be sophisticated or to sound sophisticated. It's not bad. But I don't think that's where the satisfaction is at in the readerly life. And people may disagree and that's fine. Like, maybe in your book club, like, that is the value, but it doesn't have to be your value. And if you notice, like, oh, the prose in this book was really lovely, like, good job, Amal and Max. Like, you can say the writing was pretty and it made you happy. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I'm not going to look down my nose at you with some readers, like, maybe, but we don't maybe want to talk about books with them. Can I say that?

[Max]

Yeah.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

I think that you know, it's so funny.

[Anne Bogle]

Don't be a snob. Like, let's talk about the book. Like, yeah. Yes, writers are generous and like, good writing is hospitable. Like, come on in and let's talk about it together. Not, let's, like, bar you from entry if you're not using the right words.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Right, right. I definitely am not. There's no test to pass here. I'm not reading for academic purposes any longer. So it's okay.

[Anne Bogle]

And you're glad about that. It's a good thing for your reading life.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

I'm so glad to just be reading for. For enjoyment and not for a paper or a test.

[Max]

For sure.

[Anne Bogle]

Yeah.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

That makes me feel a little better. It doesn't necessarily matter as long as I'm, you know, describing and really sharing what it is that I enjoy. So thank you for that validation.

[Max]

I needed it.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay, I'll step off the soapbox. But also, flip side. Like, I hear you saying you feel a little unsure of what it is you're describing, and I think it's okay to describe the thing instead of trying to categorize the thing. Like, were they doing something really cool with birds that you don't understand necessarily, but kept noticing in the book? Like, yeah, that's probably imagery. But you don't need to define it as imagery. You can just say, like, I noticed this thing. What in the world? What was that author doing? I thought it was cool. Did you think it was cool? And then maybe somebody else says, like, I don't know about that. That was interesting and all, but did you see what she did with the chocolate? And you don't need to be able to pass, like, the literary quiz to have a good conversation about the specifics of a book you enjoyed or didn't enjoy, as the case may be.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Yes.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay. I said I was off the soapbox and I think I hopped back up for a sec.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

I love it. This is like, all very. I'm like, yes, thank you. I feel very validated. So thank you. Anne.

[Anne Bogle]

Phoebe, we've only been talking about books for like, 20 minutes, and yet I feel confident that you're going to read a book and know what kind of reading experience you had and be able to talk about that in a way that's helpful and interesting to other readers. So I would hate to hear vocabulary be a hang up for you that might get in the way of you doing that.

[Donna]

Thank you.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay. Anything else you've been reading lately that you feel is important to mention?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Yeah, I mean, one other that I'LL mention is I read the Frozen river, which I definitely got from the show. I actually went to my parents, mom had it and I was like, I'm borrowing that book. And I, I was a little uncertain because it was historical fiction and I wasn't sure if I still liked that, but I love that book. I also flew through it and I think I do love historical settings and not all the time, but I do enjoy that. And I like that there was a little bit of mystery. But I think the thing I love the most was the commentary on just like feminism and the patriarchy and what it's like to be a strong, intelligent.

[Donna]

Woman and kind of the things that.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

People will do to kind of get you down or make you self doubt. I just thought that there was a lot of positive messaging kind of underlying that novel as well as just like a really fascinating story and a great winter read because it was, I mean, the imagery, it was so frozen and you could tell. I think she did a great job writing about that because I was like, oh, Maine in winter in the 1700s. Sounds kind of terrible, but I did enjoy reading about it.

[Anne Bogle]

That is a Maine book. I just finished a book sent in Maine and I thought, golly, what is happening here? My track record with Maine books is so good, as is my track record with Ariel's books, because I think she's such an incredible writer. I'm so glad you picked that one up. And I'm formulating theories about what's working for you and we'll talk more about that. Phoebe, what are you looking for in your reading life right now?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

I may be a little embarrassed to admit, but I have close.

[Anne Bogle]

Everybody leans closer. I know.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

So I have almost 200 unread books on my shelves. It's my physical TBR that is like never ending. And I would love some help figuring out where to go next. I'll say that, you know, in my year of discovery in 2024, though I have learned more about what I like, I still am very easily convinced. If someone loves a book and they describe it well enough, I'm like, yeah, let's do it. That sounds great. You know, folks will come on your show or I'll hear about books from other people that I know that like, realistically, if I stop to think about it, I'm like, I'm not going to enjoy that. I don't typically read those type of of books, but when someone's so passionate about it, I'm like, why not? And then I buy it and then I get it home. And I'm like, well, I don't really have the motivation to read it anymore. It was just like the thrill of the hunt. And so I would love some help kind of deciding where to go within my own shelves. For instance, I have like a collection of dark academia books because that was really trending on Booktok. And there are some books that I have a feeling I'm going to love, but also if I don't, I'm going to be really upset. I'm thinking like the Secret History. I've been, I've been looking at it and avoiding it because I'm like, what if I hate it?

[Anne Bogle]

What, what if you do?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

I. I'm gonna be upset because I know I have so many dark academia books that I thought I was gonna love.

[Anne Bogle]

Oh, upset because it knocks out a whole category.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Yeah, I'm afraid that it will.

[Anne Bogle]

I mean it might not, but also I hear, I hear the fear.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Yeah. Because there's so many things that like I said, I just, I think I could like. It sounds very interesting. And so really I am looking for direction with the things that I have kind of amassed of what you think would be a good fit kind of go next. I'm open for anything. And then also if there are any that you're like, you know, I actually don't think that that's going to be a good fit. I would love your opinion on that too. I know that's not exactly what we're doing here today. This is not a what shouldn't I read next? But I am curious because there are some, I'm sure, like Tress of the Emerald Sea where I was like so sure I was going to like it.

[Donna]

And then I read, you know, 100 pages and I was like, ah, nevermind.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

So yeah, I'm just kind of looking for where to dig in so I can make a dent in this large.

[Donna]

Large library of mine.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay, you had your year of discovery. Where are you now? Do you still feel like you're seriously in a discovery phase? I'm hoping you'll say yes, but I want to know the actual reality you're living in and reading in.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Yeah, I think I still am. So, you know, like I said, I just started to read whole horror and I think I'm still like investing like, what, you know, how scary can I go? I thought that my experience with reading horror was going to be much more intense. I'm a scaredy cat and so like I could look at the dark hallway for too long and scare myself and run up the stairs, even at the porn.

[Anne Bogle]

Sorry, sorry. Laughing. Because I can see myself doing that.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Right.

[Max]

And I always thought, you know, if.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

I'm reading something horror, I'm gonna imagine the scariest thing in my mind. And I'm not, like, there's no way. But in actuality, I found that there's a lot more of, like, horror can also just be, like, haunting elements or, like, it can be horror about, like, things in life. And it isn't necessarily, like, a scary, like, ghost or, you know, a demon or something like that. So I'm still exploring, I think, the depths of that. And again, with literary fiction, I've definitely found that I do enjoy books that are more just like, character driven than plot. That doesn't bother me, but I don't know that I have gotten a full grasp on, like, what's going to be something I like every time. I still feel like I read a lot of books that are just like, oh, that was fine, but I don't love. It's still taking me a while to find those. So, yes, I still feel like I'm exploring, to answer your question.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay, exploring is good. Getting to know your taste is good. Also, maybe you love the Secret History, maybe you hate it, but readers who enjoy Dark Academia sometimes don't love every book in that genre. And so the good and the bad news is what speaks to you, especially what speaks to you at any given moment in time, is dependent on a combination of numerous factors. And so I want to help you understand the factors. But we're not going to be like Dark Academia slam dunk, forever and ever. Endless. Five stars. Here we go. I know you know that, but sometimes it's helpful to speak the things we know out loud. Okay. Can I tell you the things I'm seeing?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Yes.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay. So I'm gathering that you enjoy books that have a unique hook, like even a literary mystery, like the God of the Woods. It wasn't just the literary mystery that got you. It's the historical fiction set in the 70s, so not that long ago that made it unlike anything you've ever read. So there was a mystery. There were family elements, there were surprises. There was a strong sense of culture. There were numerous narrators in that book, some of whom aren't as frequent types to appear in that kind of novel. I think you like something unique about a story. Interesting and unexpected characters. I think interesting and unexpected combinations of characters and elements. You've said you enjoy books that aren't 100% realistic, and I wonder if you appreciate it when Author expands past the expected. Whether that's in like a magical realism way, or whether that's in a Melissa Broder kind of way, whether that has to do with a timeline like Yaa Gyasi telling her story sequentially through a family line. You don't stay with anybody so long. You, you get a hundred years. It's been a while since I read this, but I think you get like a hundred something years of just story after story of unrelated characters. That's not how most people write novels. And you were here for it. You like the Weird Girl book. So that's a very obvious manifestation of that unexpected. You're looking for the authentic emotional experience, like you said. And you enjoy reading about families and self exploration. You want to interrogate the heavier topics. Is that tracking also? What am I leaving out?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

I'm like, very much just like, yes, that's exactly. Thank you. Because I really could have, like, if someone had asked me, I'd been like, I don't know. But you just articulated it perfectly. I do like magical realism. I have found that. I do. I tend to enjoy books that have a little bit of that or something that is just kind of a little off.

[Max]

You know, I, I.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

My husband kind of makes fun of me because I did read a couple of books. I read Tenders of Flash last year, which I have to say it was a little too out there for me, but I'm like, I'll try it, you know? And he's kind of like, why are you reading these books? And I'm like, well, they're so out there that it is really easy for me to get completely engrossed. There is not really anything that reminds me of real life here or a.

[Donna]

Situation that I would be in.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

And so it allows me to fully immerse myself and kind of disconnect. And so I agree, I think, you know, the hook, the quick hook, like you said, and something that has kind of a little bit of a beyond element of some variety. Not that it has to be magic, but I do tend to really find myself absorbed in those. And while I do sometimes read romances or things that could be more real to life, I tend, I think, to.

[Donna]

Love the ones that have just something a little bit different, like you said.

[Anne Bogle]

Yeah. I wonder if you also appreciate the reflective distance that those elements of unreality give you. Like, I wonder if having an octopus reflect on the human experience let you think more philosophically about what's happening in the story and about your human experience and the character's human experience than you might if it were like the best friend sharing their observations about what it's like to be. To be human.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Yes. I feel like maybe I have never heard something so true. Yes, that's exactly what it is. It's funny because I can think about just some books or like characters where I'm like, yeah, if a person says that I would be annoyed. Or if that's like what the person was trying together, I would be irritated that they're like trying to give me this lesson. But when it's an octopus or when it's, you know, a time traveling apartment or something, then I'm like, yeah, look at all what we've learned. That wow, that really was like nail on the head. Exactly. You nailed it.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay, okay, we're going to put a pin in that. My brain is snagging on your reading. Taste changing, vastly changing in 2024. I have questions. Okay, first of all, I think this is true of most people, but I think you might be on the further end of the spectrum. I'm seeing a dynamic, organic relationship between your reading and your life. Like what is happening in one, not what is happening in one, but what is happening in your life really impacts what you want to be reading and what you feel like you can read. Like you mentioned that when things changed in your life, you didn't want to pick up the thousand page novel. But also I wonder if you didn't want to pick up the thousand page novel. I mean, it could have been about the book specifically. But I also wonder if you really value a sense of novelty, a sense of discovery, of learning, of exploration. Like if having new categories of reading experience is meaningful and satisfying to you as a reader. I wonder if it wasn't that your taste changed exactly, but that you've always had a taste for exploration and it wasn't getting satisfied at a certain point of so long reading similar books. This is just an idea. What do you think?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Yeah, I mean, I haven't thought about it that way, but as you're saying that I'm like, yes, I think that makes a lot of sense. I think back to that novel that was a thousand pages and one.

[Max]

I just.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

It was a eight book series and that was the last book and I was like, oh my gosh, I just want to be done. But I do think, you know, as I was talking earlier about some of the romantasy, I really don't read a lot of that anymore because it did start to all feel the same. Like I was kind of going to the Same place. And that just wasn't as interesting to me. I wanted a different perspective on whatever it is that we're talking about, whether it's fantasy or it's something, you know.

[Donna]

For real human thing.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

I like to have a differing perspective and kind of get all of the input from however many kind of, like, angles that it can be addressed. So, yeah, I do think that. And I'm thinking about even when I was younger, you know, reading a lot of historical fiction because it was like going to a different place.

[Donna]

Not that I need to go back.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

To tutor England by any means, but it was interesting to read about because it was something that I didn't know a lot about, and it was completely.

[Donna]

Different than growing up, you know, in the Midwest.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

So I see some of that.

[Anne Bogle]

I mean, you can reflect on these questions and what you think of our conversation at leisure. My goal today is to give you perhaps questions that you hadn't previously considered and also really to build your confidence. Like, you don't know if you're going to enjoy a certain book or kind of book necessarily. But I'm hoping that after our conversation, you can choose what to explore with confidence. Feeling like your time spent with the book will be however long it is. 30 pages or, you know, 500 will be worthwhile because you know, what kind of information it could provide about your taste right now in your reading life in this season.

[Donna]

That would be great.

[Anne Bogle]

Now, let's look at those 200 unread books. Would you tell me how this collection came to be? What do these 200 books represent?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

I think I really like to have options and I like getting to talk about them, you know, when they're my background in, like, my office and on calls for, like, oh, and it, you know, kind of opens up the opportunity. And like I said, I think that there's a lot of, like, hearing about it somewhere and then finding it, especially when it was not as much of a mainstream book.

[Donna]

Like, I might see it on that.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Weird girl books on TikTok. And, you know, not every store has them. So I'm going to different indie bookstores as I'm traveling for work or I'm.

[Donna]

Going to, you know, we have a couple of really fantastic used bookstores.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

I'm like, hunting through shelves and I'm like, ah, you know, I found this one. And so it's all. All books that I'm like, oh, no, this definitely sounded interesting to me at some point. And I wanted to have it for whenever the time is right. The problem is that I just Keep amassing the books. And then I do tend to run out of time or I'm not giving myself time because I just keep getting more books. So I have to stop. But it's just because, you know, anything, anything could be interesting. I'm kind of down for all of it. You know, there are a few things that I know don't work, but other than that, I'm like, yeah, sure, I'll try, whatever. If somebody really enjoys it, I might enjoy it too. I just keep finding them.

[Donna]

And I love a good deal. I have to add that in too.

[Anne Bogle]

This is all very relatable. Okay, Phoebe, so you sent us the books you love and the books you don't end your submission. So I had a head start on this and thought of some books I thought you may enjoy. A couple of them popped up on your list. So I definitely want to tell you what those are. But also as I was scanning your list of 200 books, there are a lot of books where I thought, you know, I could, I could see that. Maybe I could see. I'd be curious to hear how that, you know, ends up for her. But there were some that made me go, oh, yes. So can we talk about those?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Yes, I would love to.

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[Anne Bogle]

Minimum purchase required first, as I was going over your everything and you know, we didn't talk about the emails we exchanged about all the Colors of the Dark by Chris Whitaker or hello Beautiful by Ann Napolitano, I will say I had those books in my mental bank as well. But I was thinking reading through your list like, oh, oh, has she read any Silvia Moreno Garcia? You talked especially about reading horror and enjoying branching out there, even though you don't like scary stuff. And as a scaredy cat myself, I'm not saying you are, but this is definitely my position. I have been surprised at how much I've enjoyed Silvia Morena Garcia. Also, she writes. Oh, how do I put this? Every time she writes a book I think, how does she do. Like, how does she do that? How does she come up with this? She writes so many works that are such. I mean, they feel like a family, like a body of work. But also, each book is so different from the one before it was Mexican Gothic on your list, and I don't think that's a bad choice for you. But the one that came to mind before I saw Your list of 200 books was silver Nitrate, which came out, I think, going on two summers ago. It's Summer in my mind because it was in the summer reading guide that year. But it's a horrific thriller that is like darkly funny, set in 1990s Mexico City. So very much of a time and place readers will differ on if that can actually be categorized as historical fiction. Something in me recoils like, no, I was in high school in the 90s. That can't be historical fiction. But yet it's getting called that sometimes. But it's about a. I mean, could we call this a weird girl book? I think we could. The main female protagonist, Montserrat. So interesting name. I feel like that's telling us something right off the bat. She has a love of classic horror films that really bonded her to Tristan, her childhood best friend. And now she's an underappreciated sound engineer who has a lot, a lot of technical knowledge and and skill about something almost nobody else knows about but in this novel, her and her best friend, who's a washed up telenovela star, so that's fun to read about, get mixed up with an unfinished horror film from the 30s, the tape of which somebody brings them. The script was written by a Nazi occultist and bad things happen when they play this thing. And it's a little bloody in places which I don't enjoy, like reading with my hands over my eyes. Not like that works at all. But I think the surprise and delight factor may be high for you because I think it's going to feel different and also speaks to the human experience along with a whole host of other things that you have enjoyed reading about. But it definitely feels like further along your path of discovery. How does that sound?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

It sounds really good. And, you know, this is so funny and. Because I. I think I had heard you mention this book before, and I have been at the store and, like, had it in my hands and then been like, ah, no, it's okay. And it was one of those ones where I was like, I bet it would really work for me. And I just haven't gone all the way through and bought it, but I have definitely almost purchased it so many times. So now I'm like, well, this is a sign I'm gonna have to do it because it does sound interesting to me. And, you know, even hearing you describe it in more detail now, I'm like, ah, yes, this does seem like it would be up my alley, so I'm.

[Donna]

Gonna have to get it.

[Anne Bogle]

Happy to hear it. Can't wait to hear what you think. Also, I was thinking of Piglet by Lottie Hazel for you. And then I saw it on your list. So this novel made me deeply uncomfortable. I think that is Lottie Hazel's aim. Also, I couldn't stop thinking about it. I couldn't stop talking about it. But Piglet is the central character. You do eventually find out her real name, but not until the book's final pages, which is definitely on purpose. And really I was just like, oh, that was good the way you did that. Lottie Hazel. But Piglet is a cookbook editor at a London publisher. She's set to get married in, she tells us, 98 days. And she thinks she's doing everything right. Like she has found the building blocks to build the life of her dreams and. And everything's falling into order. But then her fiance confesses to a betrayal. We never find out exactly what happened, but it's under two weeks away from the wedding day and things start to fall apart. Piglet doesn't realize at first you can, like, feel her trying to like things together through brute force, but it's not gonna happen. I really want, like, this book to have a conversation with Melissa Broder's works on the shelf. I feel like they'd have a lot to say to each other in the way they present and capture human emotions. Gosh, I would need some time to sit with that and, like, articulate that in better words. But this isn't like, what you've said you've enjoyed, but I think it would cozy up nicely with what you've said you've enjoyed. What do you think?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

That is also one. I picked it up last summer, and I have been like, oh, maybe I'll read it this month. And I just, like, kind of of haven't gotten to it because I have.

[Donna]

Like, I put it off.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

You know, a couple people kind of say they didn't like it. I'm like, oh, I don't know. But it does also sound like something I. I want. I mean, it was a reason I.

[Donna]

Bought it in the first place. I did think that I would like it.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

And hearing you kind of say, you know, some similarities or overlap with Melissa Broder and some of her books, I'm like, ooh, if it's at all kind of down that realm, I think I would really like it. So that is very affirming. Thank you.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay, glad to hear it. I gotta say, I noticed that the Nickel Boys was on your list twice, and maybe that's a sign.

[Donna]

Yes, I do have two copies of it.

[Anne Bogle]

Do you know how that happened?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

This is also something I do is, like, I found a really nice paperback of it, but then I found a pristine hardcover copy of it again at a thrift store that was like. It was like, you know, it's a white cover. It wasn't even dirty. And I was like, okay, well, I'm gonna have to have this, the hardcover. And I figured, you know, it was one of those books where I know it.

[Anne Bogle]

It's.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

It can be more intense, but I think it's like, one of those that's kind of like a must read, given the kind of era we're in right now. And I thought, well, there are worse things for me to put a copy.

[Donna]

In, like, a little free library nearby.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

And so I ended up picking up both copies. But have I read either of them? No, just on my list.

[Anne Bogle]

You know, I want to know the story. Why, but do I have several copies of some books? Because I thought somebody wants a copy, and it's in front of me for $1.50. Yes, yes, I absolutely do.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

So tempting.

[Anne Bogle]

It is indeed. Phoebe. We haven't talked a lot about nonfiction today, but Burn book by Kara Swisher jumped out at me, and I thought, wow. Like, if this is a book that spoke to you and it's on your shelf, this feels like a really interesting moment to read it in. Donna on our team. Donna's our resident spreadsheet whisperer. She just happened to mention when she and I had a meeting back in the summer or fall that she was enjoying the audio version. And I wasn't familiar with Kara Swisher's podcast, but I thought, like, Dunn has great taste. I'll give this a try. And she speaks to her experience as a journalist covering US tech companies beginning in the 1990s. And it's part professional memoir, part recent history, part commentary. I think the way this intersects with where we are as a country and what the headline news is these days can make this really interesting reading for right now. What are you thinking about this book at the moment? Like, not talking to me today, but, like, as you see it on your shelf in 2025?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Yeah. So it's the funny thing that is like, a whole other side of this kind of story that I haven't told you is that I have tons of fiction books. My husband has probably two, 200 nonfiction books. He reads, like, exclusively nonfiction, a lot of political books, and he's definitely a collector. And so I did not. I was not familiar with Kara Swisher, but he got us tickets last summer to see her speak at the library here in Philly. And I was like, oh, you know, her commentary was really interesting. Working in tech, I thought was like, you know, I resonated with some of the things that she said, and I have it. I'm trying to read more nonfiction this year, and I thinking, like, I'm gonna have to finally crack that one open, because she definitely interested me hearing her speak about it. And I do think it's very timely, given even just the last few weeks.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay, that's so interesting. 200 nonfiction. Once you decide how you feel about the fiction. Now, based on what I got to hear you say, especially about what you love, I really wonder about Burnham Wood by Eleanor Catton. I mean, this is another compulsively readable literary mystery. I very much have the God of the woods in mind. Eco thriller meets Shakespearean tragedy. It's not a coincidence that Shakespeare is referenced in the title of this book, and it's set in New Zealand. It's high stakes, lots of action, but lots of deep thoughts as well. You appreciate a good ending. I think you may enjoy this one. I will say there is so much to talk about in this, this book. I've heard so many readers say this is the kind of the book that you finish and you go, what? Who's read it? Who can I talk to about this? How are you feeling about that one right now?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

That was a recent purchase for me. I also thrifted that one and it was like one of those. I know I've heard of this and saw, you know, some really great reviews. And it seems like I was like, oh, this might be along kind of the mystery lines that I have been liking recently, but I didn't know a lot about it and. And so I kind of picked it.

[Donna]

Up on a whim.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

So I'm excited to hear you say that because I didn't have a ton of context on it. So I don't know that I would have gotten to it really soon had you not shared that. But now knowing that, I'm like, well, I'm gonna have to definitely pick that one up sooner because I have been enjoying those kind of mysteries lately.

[Anne Bogle]

I mean, really. Speaking of Kara Swisher, this is a book about a powerful American billionaire who gets mixed up up with an idealistic activist group focused on environmental rights and guerrilla gardening. And when the two come together, bad things happen. Bad, highly readable things happen.

[Donna]

Oh, I can't wait.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay, I love that for you. I don't want to focus just on the books with magical elements. Although that did really jump out at me based on what you said. Oh, okay. But before we move on, you have a long history with historical fiction. And Wayward is a fairy tale, like, historical novel that links three women going back to the 1600s up to just about the present day in 2019, who are connected by. I mean, they're all part of the same family and they all have slightly magical natural powers that they are in varying degrees of possession. So they're living in different eras. They're facing very different circumstances. But Amelia Hart, like, shows us how these women are fundamentally alike. What they have in common as wayward women. Wayward is the family's cottage in the beautiful British countryside. And we get to see, even before they do, the deep spiritual connection they have that will ultimately save them from the terrible things they're experiencing. That's domestic violence, violence in the present day, horrible misogyny and patriarchy in the 40s. And our 1600s protagonist is accused of being a witch because she has this knowledge of natural remedies and the healing arts that have saved people in her village and also made her seem very, very suspicious in the eyes of some. You used to love historical fiction. I think this has some elements that would make it more likely to be a book that you're glad you spent your time with. How does that sound?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

That sounds really good. That hasn't been another one where I finally grabbed it just the other week because it had been on my list for so long. I'd heard so many people talk about how much they love it. I had an inkling that I would probably like it, but now I'm like, okay, good. I feel much more confident in that decision.

[Donna]

I'm excited to pick it up, and.

[Anne Bogle]

I'm excited to hear what you think. Okay. We also need to talk about. Come and get it. Not a weird girl book, but I feel like it's weird girl adjacent. This is by Kylie Reid. This is a, like, dark campus comedy of manners set at the University of Arkansas. And it's about the intersecting lives of a University of Arkansas resident advisor, the college girls who live on her floor, and a visiting professor who's working on her next book. And all these people are dealing with painful recent losses. Some people didn't like this because they felt like it didn't have a tight plot and. And it wasn't really about anything. And I thought, what book did you read? But I do want you to know, think about that and what you want from this book. But I found this to be a multifaceted portrait of women and money. There's so much here about money, including the topic of the visiting professor's book that she's working on. There's a lot of complex and sometimes uncomfortable power dynamics, lots going on with race and privilege. This is. Is very much a novel about what it's like to live and work on a college campus. And also all these women are searching for hope and security in the midst of some really unique between all the characters here, but really difficult circumstances. I feel like in this and her debut, such a fun age, Reid puts her characters into really, like, tight corners and just watches them wriggle and try to get out of it. So if that sounds like, oh, I don't want that reading experience, then you don't want that reading experience. But if that sounds like, kind of delicious, then I think you might. How does that sound?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

That sounds really good. You know, I think I'm gonna have to read that one soon. Having lived and worked on a college campus and kind of seen some of those things. A college campus in the south, and lived some of those. I think I'm gonna have to read that one soon just to see how it compares.

[Anne Bogle]

We're going to do two more. And I will say explicitly, I feel like if you brought me the books, we got to leave you with more than three. They're your books. So you mentioned dark academia. I almost forgot. Give Babel a try. It's historical fantasy, dark, academic. It also has a magical realism element because in this book, words can be turned into currency. There's a lot going on here, but it's also got a nice plot, some narrative drive, commentary on empire and colonialism, surprising turns, musings on translation, lots of footnotes if you enjoy that kind of thing. How's this sounding to you?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

I'm very interested in Babel. I have been very intimidated by it. But I know that RF Kong has a new book coming out this year, and I do kind of want. I'm interested in that, too. And so I have been really thinking about Babel. I just was a little nervous, but I know I need to just kind of dive in because it is kind of like the quintessential or one of the quintessential dark academia. And it sounds like it combines a few other elements that I also enjoy. So, yes, I'm like, this was the. This was the push I needed. I'm like, I do need to do it. I've just been a little scared. But I think, you know, if I don't like it, I don't have to continue. But I have a feeling I will.

[Anne Bogle]

Is it because it sounds cerebral?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Yes.

[Anne Bogle]

It's so easy to get swept up in the story. Like, it is really smart. She's doing a lot of, like, really smart, nerdy things. And also, lots of readers find it to be a great story. The end. Finally, the Dutch house historical fiction story with a long span of time like you enjoy. And I think a. A really excellent pick considering your love of. Hello. Beautiful.

[Max]

Specifically, I haven't read inpatchett before, but.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

I have a couple. And I have a feeling I would like her.

[Donna]

Her work.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

So that's a great place to start.

[Donna]

Thank you.

[Anne Bogle]

I think this is a great place to jump in and see what you think. Phoebe, how are you feeling?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

I'm feeling good. I'm really excited.

[Anne Bogle]

What are you gonna be thinking about when we hang up?

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Oh, my gosh. I am going to be thinking about, like, what am I in the mood for? I am a mood reader and I'm like, oh gosh, so many of these sound good. I may have to go straight into Babel.

[Donna]

Let's just do it.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

It's still. It's still wintry and cold out. I'm like, maybe it's the. It's the move. I don't know.

[Anne Bogle]

All right, that sounds great. And I'm so excited to hear what you think you'll try next, and I'd love to hear what you continue thinking about and what you discover in your reading life.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

Thank you so much, Anne.

[Anne Bogle]

Hey readers. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Phoebe, and I'd love to hear what you think she may enjoy reading next. You can connect with Phoebe on Instagram and Storygraph. We'll have those links along with the full list of titles we talked about today at what Should I read next? Podcast.com you'll find our shows page on Instagram at what Should I Read Next? And we would love it if you'd follow us over there and tag us when you share your favorite book discoveries from our show. Stay in the news on everything happening at what Should I Read Next? HQ by signing up for our news letter@whatshouldireadnext podcast.com newsletter and we would be so grateful if you'd take a moment to make sure you're following along on your favorite podcast app or platform. Whether you listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pocket Casts, Overcast, or your favorite app, subscribing and automatically downloading each new episode gives meaningful feedback to the podcast networks and tells them that you love our show and want more of it. It's a free and easy way to support our show and our team and allows us to continue to create episodes like this one. Thanks to the people who make the show happen. What Should I Read Next? Is created each week by Will Bogle, Holly Wilkachevsky, and Studio D Podcast Production Readers. That's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening and as Reiner Maria Rilke said, ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading. Happy reading everyone.

[Phoebe Mellinger]

It.