Ep 475: Help for a fiction lover who wants to read more nonfiction

Summary

Podcast Summary: Ep 475: Help for a Fiction Lover Who Wants to Read More Nonfiction

Release Date: April 29, 2025

Introduction

In Episode 475 of What Should I Read Next?, host Anne Bogel engages in a heartfelt conversation with Jill Jacklin, an avid reader and retired social worker from New Jersey. Jill seeks Anne’s expertise to overcome her struggle of incorporating more nonfiction into her predominantly fiction-centric reading life. This episode delves deep into Jill’s reading habits, preferences, and the psychological barriers preventing her from embracing nonfiction.

Guest Introduction

Jill Jacklin introduces herself as a mid-50s resident of New Jersey, a retired social worker, and an avid reader. She highlights her active involvement in her local book club since 2007 and her engagement with Anne’s podcast since 2019. Jill emphasizes her love for a wide range of genres, particularly fiction, while expressing her desire to delve more into nonfiction despite having numerous untouched nonfiction titles on her bookshelf.

“I'm an avid library user. I also have my collection of books at home. And I may read a book from home, read a library book, and I go back and forth to try to bring down that TBR.”
— Jill Jacklin [07:15]

Jill’s Reading Life

Jill recounts her lifelong passion for reading, starting from childhood with classics like Charlotte's Web. She maintains a disciplined reading routine, alternating between library books and her personal collection. Jill describes herself as a “completist,” striving to read extensively across various genres, though she consciously avoids horror and dystopian fiction.

“There's a few genres I don't read at all. I'm not a horror reader. I know that you're not either. And I tend not to be a dystopian reader. But other than that, I am open to reading anything as long as it's well written.”
— Jill Jacklin [08:34]

The Nonfiction Dilemma

Jill articulates her main concern: despite owning several nonfiction books that intrigue her, she finds herself reluctant to pick them up. She distinguishes between memoirs, which she seamlessly integrates into her fiction shelves, and purely informational nonfiction titles that remain untouched. Jill experiences a form of paralysis when faced with her nonfiction collection, fearing that these books might not provide the engaging narrative she enjoys in fiction.

“Do you know, it's like, are they going to read like a history book? Is it just going to be facts? Am I going to be annoyed?”
— Jill Jacklin [22:09]

Exploring Preferences and Barriers

Anne and Jill dissect the nature of Jill's preferences, noting that even within nonfiction, Jill gravitates towards titles that blend information with storytelling. Anne suggests that recognizing the narrative elements within nonfiction books might help Jill overcome her hesitation.

“It may be interesting, it may be well written, but when I sit down in my reading time... I want to be reading a story, like fiction or memoir or something that has a compelling personal story element.”
— Jill Jacklin [37:38]

Jill elaborates on her need for characters she can root for and her fascination with the psychology behind characters’ decisions. This preference extends to her nonfiction choices, where she appreciates books that weave personal stories with factual information.

Strategies to Incorporate Nonfiction

Anne proposes two approaches to help Jill integrate nonfiction into her reading routine:

1. Finding the Right Books: Selecting nonfiction that aligns closely with Jill’s fiction preferences.
2. Creating a Comfortable Reading Space: Adjusting habits and mindset to peacefully coexist with nonfiction in her reading life.

Jill expresses a preference for the latter, wanting to adjust her reading habits without overhauling her entire collection.

“I have this theory of my reading life. If I'm ever in a slump, I'll just grab a book and just start reading, and it'll either break me out of it, I won't like that book. I will like that book and then move on.”
— Jill Jacklin [42:08]

Recommended Nonfiction Titles

Anne recommends several nonfiction books that incorporate strong narrative elements, making them potentially more appealing to Jill:

• Michelle Obama’s The Light We Carry
• Adam Grant’s Think Again
• Chip and Dan Heath’s Switch

These titles are celebrated for their storytelling prowess, blending factual information with engaging narratives that mirror the qualities Jill appreciates in her fiction reads.

Implementing New Habits

Jill outlines her plan to gradually incorporate nonfiction into her reading schedule by dedicating specific times during the day to these books, rather than viewing them as obligatory rather than enjoyable reads. This strategy aims to reduce the feeling of overwhelm and make the process more approachable.

“My plan is to take one of them out, probably one of the three you just mentioned that are on my shelf, and start it a little bit throughout the day and see how that feels.”
— Jill Jacklin [46:26]

Conclusion

The episode concludes with Jill feeling more settled and optimistic about her new challenge to read more nonfiction. Anne encourages listeners to share their own strategies for balancing different genres, fostering a community of supportive readers.

“I like that shift. I like that.”
— Jill Jacklin [45:17]

Notable Quotes

• “Lots of people talked about. I have to have somebody that I'm rooting for.”
  — Jill Jacklin [29:19]

• “I'm a sucker for a good narrative drive. Like, I want to know what happens next, next.”
  — Jill Jacklin [41:21]

• “This was my first time discussing it, and so it's helpful to discuss it and see how that feels.”
  — Jill Jacklin [42:08]

Final Thoughts

Anne Bogel adeptly addresses Jill’s reading challenges by exploring both her preferences and the structural habits that hinder her from embracing nonfiction. The conversation highlights the importance of finding nonfiction that resonates on a personal level, blending information with narrative to create an engaging reading experience. This episode serves as a valuable resource for readers facing similar dilemmas, offering practical strategies and thoughtful recommendations to enrich their literary journeys.

Transcript

[Jill Jacklin]

And then I reserve the right to come back to you Ann and say no. These are the ones I like. Can you give me more informational ones that are story like that would be.

[Anne Bogle]

A fun conversation to have. Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogle and this is what Should I Read Next? Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader. What should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest. Readers, Our Summer Reading Guide is just a few weeks away from landing in inboxes everywhere. As always, we are celebrating this reading season with a live unboxing party and there are three ways to attend and get your own digital copy of the guide. Our Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club and what Should I Read Next? Patreon community members are invited to join us as an included membership perk and we're also offering our popular a la carte tickets again for 2025. This year we are also offering a special add on our Summer Reading Guide printed booklet. This is a beautiful analog real life magazine style copy of the guide that you can annotate with pens and tape flags. Take to the beach or park or library and use to track and plan your reading all summer. Add it to your order and check your mailbox once it ships after May 15. To get in on this year's Summer Reading Guide action, go to modernmrsdarcy.com SRG that's for summer Reading Guide. To order yours today, that's modernmrsdarcy.com SRG Please note, due to the current uncertainty about all the things our small business is only able to ship to US addresses right now. Thank you for understanding readers. If you're trying to save money right now, it might be time to take a closer look at your data or data, however you say it. Plan. For the longest time we thought that paying a fortune for our monthly data plan was just the way it had to be. But then we heard about Mint Mobile. Mint Mobile has premium wireless plans that deliver the high speed, reliable service that you're used to. Starting at just $15 a month. It's such a relief to know we won't have a giant monthly bill or unexpected overage charges, just unlimited talk and text and high speed data delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. So if you are ready to save, get rid of your overpriced wireless plan and sign up with Mint mobile to enjoy three months of premium wireless service from Mint Mobile for $15 a month. No matter how you say it, don't overpay for it. Shop data [e-mail] readnext that's mintmobile.com read read next upfront payment of $45 for 3 month 5 gigabyte plan required equivalent to $15 a month new customer offer for first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Readers if you're like me, you've used LinkedIn to keep in touch with professional colleagues or as an online resume of sorts. But LinkedIn does so much more than connect you with others and build your network. It's also a great place to advertise. After all, one of the hardest parts of B2B marketing is reaching the right audience. We've all seen ads for products and services that we would never buy, like the ads for super expensive luxury SUVs that keep filling up my feed right now. That's where LinkedIn Ads comes in. Leveraging LinkedIn's network of over 1 billion professionals, you can target your buyers with a range of factors from industry and role to job title and even company name. There's no need to distribute your marketing budget across a range of platforms. With LinkedIn, all the professionals you need are right here in one place. LinkedIn will even give you a hundred dollar credit on your next campaign, so you can try it for yourself. Just go to LinkedIn.com readnext that's LinkedIn.com readnext terms and conditions apply only on LinkedIn ads readers today I'm excited to talk books with Jill Jacklin, an avid reader, retired social worker, and what should I read next? Completist who lives in New Jersey, Jill is here in search of help for her reading conundrum. She has struggled to find a way to incorporate more nonfiction into her life. She enjoys reading widely and especially loves fiction, but in her own words, she also knows that there are non fiction books out there that will educate her if only she would take the time to read them. In fact, she's got a whole bookshelf full of such books that she's acquired but hasn't touched. Can I help? Well, today it's my pleasure to try. Let's get to it. Jill, welcome to the show.

[Jill Jacklin]

Thank you so much Anne. It's such a pleasure to be here.

[Anne Bogle]

Oh my gosh. And thank you for answering our call. So listeners, you wouldn't know this But I had a recording cancel at the last minute this week. As we're talking and as we have done before, but not for a while, we put out a call to our patrons to say, hey, who can record in two days at X time? And Jill, you entered the breach and said, I can help you out. So thank you so much for that.

[Jill Jacklin]

My pleasure. This is a New Year's resolution, Anne. So you helped me complete that right off the bat.

[Anne Bogle]

Oh, my gosh. Before the halfway point.

[Jill Jacklin]

Exactly.

[Anne Bogle]

Well, usually we record four to six weeks in advance because that way we are still ready to put an episode in your feeds on Tuesday if somebody gets the flu. If I lose my voice, as I often do during pollen season, we are running on a shorter lead time because it's summer reading guide prep season. And also I was just out of town on spring break, so we were running thinner on a thinner margin than usual. In case you're thinking, why did that matter? That's why that mattered. And we often take our needs when we need help to our patrons. So if you're part of that community, thank you so much for being there as our safety net. We really appreciate it. If you don't know what I'm talking about. Patreon.com whatshould I read next? So, Jill, I'm grateful for all our patrons and for you and the path that brought you to the show today.

[Jill Jacklin]

Thank you. So excited to be here.

[Anne Bogle]

All right, let's jump in. Tell us a little bit about yourself. We'd like to give our listeners a glimpse of who you are.

[Jill Jacklin]

So I am in my mid-50s. I live in New Jersey. I am a retired social worker, married, two children and a dog. And I spent the past number of years doing a lot of volunteering for a local social service agency. And I am, at the point, an empty nester. And so my husband and I have been able to do a lot of travel. He travels for work. So I've had the benefit of doing really fun things with him. And I'm an avid, avid reader and a what should I read next? Completist.

[Anne Bogle]

Well, thank you for that, Jill. Tell me a little bit about your reading life.

[Jill Jacklin]

I started reading very young. In fact, I still have my original Charlotte's Web by E.B. white Sitting on my shelf. That gives me a lot of pleasure to look at. And I would say I read off and on through college or graduate school, having young children. But when we moved to the town that we're in, I started a book club in 2007. And we are hardcore we talk about the books we meet every other month. And I would say also started listening to what should I Read next in 2019. And since then have really been immersed in the reading life. I'm an avid library user. I also have my collection of books at home. And so I may read a book from home, read a library book, and I go back and forth to try to bring down that tbr. I also, I attend author talks, I go to book festivals, and I read widely. I am not the type to read constant historical fiction or romance. I really, for me, I have to vary. There's a few genres I don't read at all. I'm not a horror reader. I know that you're not either. And I tend not to be a dystopian reader. But other than that, I am open to reading anything as long as it's well written. And I guess that's subjective. What I consider is well written.

[Anne Bogle]

Ooh. Does that make it hard to pick?

[Jill Jacklin]

Sometimes. Sometimes it makes it hard to pick. It's funny when I hear people talk about their inner reading slump. So sometimes, you know, you sort of get paralyzed. You're looking at a whole thing, and I will just literally close my eyes and just pick something and no, that it'll work or it won't work. I'm not afraid to put a book down. But yeah, I just sort of keep moving forward.

[Anne Bogle]

That reminds me of a conversation I was having with Lee on our team this past week. We weren't actually talking about work. We were just talking about what we were reading. But we were discussing the idea that no reading is in vain. Like you always learn something.

[Jill Jacklin]

Exactly.

[Anne Bogle]

Well, I'm really excited to hear more about that today. Now, Jill, I halfway know the answer to this question, which is I'm wondering what brings you to the show today. But I know that coming on what should I read next? Was on your mind before that Patreon call. What brings you to the show right now? What's on your readerly mind is what I want to know.

[Jill Jacklin]

Obviously, we're going in the direction of how I submitted it. And it's funny that I avoided it because that brings to why I'm here. So I have in my bookshelf, I have one or two shelves that are nonfiction, and I don't mean memoirs to me. I know memoirs are nonfiction. Ish. But they go into my fiction shelves. But my nonfiction books, a book by Gretchen Rubin, a book by Sanjay Gupta, those books that sound interesting to me just sit there. You know, a book about food and I want to be able to read them and I just don't pick them and they just sit there. And so I love to be able to go through my fiction and be like, I'm pick this, I'm going to pick this. But I'm literally walking away from my nonfiction. And I know I might enjoy some of them, but I get a little bit paralyzed.

[Anne Bogle]

Ooh, okay, cue me thinking about ditching everything we have planned for this episode. Like, I was wondering if you could text me a photo of those shelves.

[Jill Jacklin]

I could.

[Anne Bogle]

So, listeners, what just happened is Jill went and texted me a couple photos of her nonfiction shelves. But Jill, I think your reading life is your reading life. Let's talk about the fiction books you brought today so that we can identify any barriers. What's keeping you from picking these nonfiction books up? Or I'm really wondering how much of this is a structural issue with habits and how you think about what you want to read and when you want to read it, and how much is not being psyched about the books that are waiting for you.

[Jill Jacklin]

Yes, wait.

[Anne Bogle]

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[Jill Jacklin]

I looked at the past two years, right? Because I could go back decades and I wanted to bring books that represented what I like when I'm reading. Oh, so two of them? Yep. Two of them are in print. One is in audio.

[Anne Bogle]

Perfect. What's the first book you love?

[Jill Jacklin]

So the first book and this was I read in print was the Byrd Hotel by Joyce Maynard.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay. True Confession. I've been meaning to read her for years. I haven't. Ginger says I should. I think she'd be a great book club author potentially. But I haven't read her yet. Okay, so tell me everything.

[Jill Jacklin]

Somebody had recommended it to me. I had never heard of her. And I love reading about the. The choices that people make. And when I say that, it's funny. It's like people can make all kinds of choices and you can't judge them. But the choices that people make that I find so interesting are things not necessarily that I would do. It's not that they're aspirational. It's that, wow, I can't believe somebody has done that. And so the lead character, Irene, had a traumatic experience when she was younger and she decides to leave everything and. And goes to a country that's not named. I believe it's Central America. And it's her experience at this hotel called the Byrd Hotel. There's magical realism, which I love. There's a touch of. There's emotional resonance. It's great storytelling. I loved the characters. Totally had a rooting interest and it kept you to the end. There was some suspense. I thought it was beautifully done. And I haven't read any more of Joyce Maynard, but I'm really looking forward to it. So. Yes. Loved the Byrd Hotel.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay, thank you for that. Jill, what's the second book you love?

[Jill Jacklin]

I read it recently, but it is a bit of an older book. It's the Poisonwood Bible by Barbara Kingsolver. This was written in the late 90s. Everybody probably knows her recently from Demon Copperhead, but this was an incredible book. Stories told by the wife and four daughters of Nathan Price, who is an Evangelical Baptist who took his family to Belgian Congo in 1959. Literally, this book could be a course in a college setting. Every sentence. It's not even that. I don't necessarily need a book sentences to be beautifully written in that description and all that. But her sentence structure in how she tells a story is just incredible. It's almost indescribable. Nobody tells a story like she does. The language and there's everything in there. There's history, there's a little bit of suspense, there's hope. It's all together. You definitely have a rooting interest. It's an incredible book, an incredible story. And you 1. I know I've heard you say this before, Anne. It's how you read a book, if you will. And this is a book you really have to sit and read. You're not breezing through this book. And it's just an incredibly well written story. And I loved it.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay, what's the third book you love?

[Jill Jacklin]

So this one was an audio. This was Vera Wang's Unsolicited Advice for Murderers by Jesse Q. Sutanto and oh my gosh, loved it on audio. I love audio often for the performance factor. If there is a book that I try reading and I don't necessarily enjoy it or but everybody says it's good, I'll switch formats. And if it is done well on audio, oh my gosh, it changes the entire experience for me. So vera is a 60 year old tea shop owner who becomes an amateur sleuth when she finds a dead man in her tea shop. And it just. I loved it. I loved the story. I love the way it was narrated. It just was so fun for me.

[Anne Bogle]

I'm glad that worked for you. I read that in print and now I'm very curious about the performance factor of the audiobook. Definitely recommend Jill, what book was not right for you and I'd love to hear did it not align with your taste? Was it bad timing? Was it about a topic that wasn't for you?

[Jill Jacklin]

I don't finish a lot of books if I'm not enjoying them, but this was a book that lots of people talked about. I believe it might have been in the summer reading guide. The premise I thought was great. So it was the Husbands by Holly Grimasio. And again, I thought the premise was fun. There is definitely, I guess, a magical realism element. I just didn't love the execution. It sounded a little silly to me. Maybe it was too surface for me. I was super curious. I pursued it because I was also curious to see how she was gonna end it. And I just left me not loving the ending and just kind of meh.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay, you didn't love the execution. Do you have a sense if that came down to like plotting choices, like the direction the story went or if it had more to do with the tone and emotions in the story?

[Jill Jacklin]

I actually think it was both. I think it was the tone and emotion and I think in the direction it probably was more plot directed. But I do think the tone was a little like where is she? Where is she going with this? In terms of just how they were talking, she was talking about like almost a little flip maybe in terms of with the different husbands and with her emotions, I think I needed a little more depth.

[Anne Bogle]

That was in the summer reading guide. I love that book. And also I'm noticing how the tone of the Husbands is very different from what you'd find in Joyce Maynard Barbara Kingsolver. I think it's more similar to Jesse.

[Jill Jacklin]

Right. And it would have been interesting if I would have Listened to it on audio. If I would have felt differently, I thought about that, too.

[Anne Bogle]

That's an interesting question. High fives for realizing that that's a potential factor there. So with the open question in the audio, what I'm wondering is if you were looking to the story to have a more ostensibly reflective experience.

[Jill Jacklin]

Mm, I like that. Yes.

[Anne Bogle]

I mean, it's just an idea.

[Jill Jacklin]

Yeah. No, I think so. I think you were right. I think I. Yes. I mean, you're talking about a husband, right? You're talking about somebody who's coming down as your husband. Yes, I think so.

[Anne Bogle]

Coming down. Coming down from the attic. Because of the husbands. Sorry.

[Jill Jacklin]

Thank you.

[Anne Bogle]

Many husbands come down from the attic one by one in this weird sort of. It's not exactly a time loop, is it? It's been a year since I read it.

[Jill Jacklin]

It's been a year since I read.

[Anne Bogle]

It, but there's definitely some serious unreality happening in this book.

[Jill Jacklin]

Yes. I was super excited because I thought the premise was great, but. Yeah, I think you're right. The reflective bit of it. Yeah. I thought the writing was fine in terms of just the sentence structure and all that, but I do. And perhaps listening to it might have had a different feel for me, maybe.

[Anne Bogle]

That's an interesting question. Jill, what have you been reading lately?

[Jill Jacklin]

I just finished Not Our Kind by Kitty Zelvis, which I enjoyed. I finished the new Patti Callahan Henry, the Story She Left behind, which I also enjoyed. Recently read State of Terror by Hillary Clinton and Louise Penny, which was loved. That was a five star for me. Listened to when in Rome by Sarah Adams, which was also amazing. And how to Read a Book by Monica Wood that I know, Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club read. And I also read for my book club, which also loved.

[Anne Bogle]

There's some good variety there. I'm noticing that none of that is nonfiction.

[Jill Jacklin]

And you would be correct.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay. That's really helpful to hear your books now. Would you share more about your dilemma with those laid out on the table in our beautiful library?

[Jill Jacklin]

Right, right.

[Anne Bogle]

With shelves and sconces.

[Jill Jacklin]

I have a shelf.

[Anne Bogle]

Some mood lighting.

[Jill Jacklin]

Yes. So I do have a shelf of books. Everything from lifestyle to politics to some medical. Some self help. And something drew me to them and I thought they were interesting, but I don't reach for them. And I think it's the whole notion of, are they going to read like a history book? Is it just going to be facts? Am I going to be annoyed? And I know we all take chances on fiction books. It feels more. I don't know More of a leap to do these nonfiction. But with that being said, I have a shelf full of books. So either take one out, read it, read a part of it, like it, don't like it, but make a decision. And I'm just not. I'm just not doing it. And so, yeah, I would like to incorporate it. And also, I would like to. I know we talk about books that educate us, and while in fiction, clearly we get educated, I do think I have the time to read more books that will be educational, and I'm just not. And I would like to, or I believe I would like to.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay. How did these books come into your life?

[Jill Jacklin]

That's a great question. So it's either a recommendation from, let's say, the New York Times Book Review or it's something on social media or. So the Gretchen Rubin book, her newest, I thought, just seemed very interesting. I think it's more along there. There's nothing specific where I've heard about them.

[Anne Bogle]

Did I hear you say that these are books that you're interested in reading for information?

[Jill Jacklin]

Yes.

[Anne Bogle]

Gosh, this sounds. Oh, I don't like the question that's about to come out of my mouth. But what is your purpose in reading the books that we just discussed, the fiction books? It could be a trick question. You could have a different purpose for every single one.

[Jill Jacklin]

That's fine. Well, I will tell you. So the Poisonwood Bible literally sat on my shelf probably for 15 years, and the only reason I picked it up at the time is somebody suggested it for our book club. I said, okay, I guess I'm now reading the Poisonwood Bible because it felt daunting to me. The Byrd Hotel was recommended to me. Actually, it was my mom, who is an avid reader, and she said, you need to read this book. I'm buying it for you. I said, okay, I guess I'm reading the book. So that was that one. And the Veer Wang is. It's interesting on the audio. I get a lot of my recommendations, whether it's from your podcast or from your different reading guides, because I just never know what's going to sound good on audio. It feels more risky for the audio. And so this was.

[Anne Bogle]

Sorry, I'm kind of giggling because I relate to that.

[Jill Jacklin]

Right. Well, I know it wasn't you. You didn't read it. You know what? I guess you read it in print. Somebody read an audio or I've just said, you know, I'm going to try an audio. I don't know. But I'm much more hesitant to take risks on audio than I. Even though I have two subscriptions, I have Libro FM and I have Audible.

[Anne Bogle]

I hear that. I love this question. I think I specifically love this question because I relate to this struggle so much. Jill, I'm thinking there are two ways we could approach this. One is we could decide which book's on your shelf best fit your reading taste or which other books that are out there best fit your reading taste. That would be about finding the right books. So something else we could do is find a space for these books to happily or at least peacefully exist in your reading life. That could be. I mean, we could create a different way for you to think about when and why you're reading these. I'm wondering what you're thinking.

[Jill Jacklin]

I like the latter because, look, I always love to get recommendations from you. And if there were nonfiction books based on what I read that you said, you know what? I really think you need to be reading that or you might find that interesting. I would love that. However, I have a shelf of books that I need to make decisions on in a way that feels like you're saying nice, comfortable, and fits into my reading life. So I definitely would love to talk about the structure and the habit and all of that. I always hear you talk about your morning routine, and other people say, well, I do this in the evening, and I don't do that.

[Anne Bogle]

I just have my books I'm thinking of right now.

[Jill Jacklin]

I know. Yes.

[Anne Bogle]

Because, I mean, I read the new Frederick Bachmann. There's a running joke in the book where the one character, I think it's actually the narrative voice, is always saying, not to brag, but not to brag, but. Okay, Jill. Not to brag, but, like, I kind of figured this out for me. It's working, what I'm doing, and my. My need was different than yours. But I think even hearing maybe not even even especially hearing people's approaches to problems that aren't like ours helps us think more expansively and freer and creatively about our own. So here. Here's hoping we can do that here. Also, listeners. Jill did in fact, text me a photo of these shelves. So I am looking at these books. Jill, first I want to go back and look at your novels. Can we do that?

[Jill Jacklin]

Yes, of course.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay, so you loved the Bird Hotel by Joyce Maynard, the Poisonwood Bible by Barbara Kingsolver, and Vera Wong's Unsolicited Advice for Murderers by Jesse Q. Sutanto on audio. That's important to you to note because you listen slash Read differently in that format. The Husbands by Holly Grimatio sounded like an interesting premise, but the execution was not the kind of book that you are actually looking for for. And you've been reading a slew of various books lately, especially contemporary literary fiction, historical and mystery. You know, I guess you had a romance too. So a slew of various books you like to read. A variety. And what you are looking for is, I mean, stories you can really sink into and can believe. It seems like you like to at least be interested in the characters, even if you're not actively rooting for anyone. Like, deeply interesting. Like, I gotta know what's gonna happen to these people. I'm wondering if you like to get inside their heads.

[Jill Jacklin]

Yes.

[Anne Bogle]

You want their decisions to make sense to you. What else would you add to this?

[Jill Jacklin]

To go the other way is if I don't like any of the characters, I cannot finish the book. I have to have somebody that I'm rooting for. Even if they make some choices, I wouldn't. There has to be something redeemable about them. And I do like the whole psychology behind why people make certain decisions. I find that fascinating. And the choices that people make and how, you know, the whole sliding doors and how that choice could go this way or that way. Ooh.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay, I've got some summer books for you. But we're not talking summer reading idea. But they're coming. Okay, but the sliding doors idea is interesting. Is the nonfiction dilemma specifically related to this informational nonfiction? Because I'm noticing that there are some excellent memoirs, essays, nonfiction, by, say, Joyce Maynard and Barbara Kingsolver that I think you would really enjoy. But also, I don't think they're the kind of books you would read for information. For insight, maybe.

[Jill Jacklin]

Right, right.

[Anne Bogle]

But not for knowledge in the sense that reading. I mean, an information based book that I've recommended twice this week because it's April and I have a college senior is Ron Lieber's the price you pay for college.

[Jill Jacklin]

Yes.

[Anne Bogle]

I sit down with a book like that expecting a very different reading experience than I want from a Barbara King Solver novel.

[Jill Jacklin]

Yes, I do think from an informational standpoint, I do want to incorporate those books into my life. And it may be once I read some of those books on my shelf, I may come back to you and Anne and say, guess what? I really don't want to read informational books. And those books are not for me. But I feel like I want to give it a shot. I guess I'm just torn with how the format might be and I don't know, I guess sort of the paralyzing fear, which is pretty strong. But of like. No, I guess I don't. But I want to does something like.

[Anne Bogle]

A lovely memoir slot nicely into your current reading rhythms?

[Jill Jacklin]

It definitely does, yes. And I do incorporate memoirs into my reading. Not as often because again, for me, I have to like the voice. And sometimes I do listen to memoirs. I know. I think you do as well on audio, which I enjoy.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay. When do you read? Right now, Jill.

[Jill Jacklin]

I generally do try to read during the day. I can allot myself some time. It's usually later in the day, in the later afternoon. And then I do try to read before bed. It depends on sort of what's happening in my household. I don't often read first thing in the morning. I've got a dog. I've got to get things moving. Those are usually my times.

[Anne Bogle]

There's no need to apologize about that. You don't need to explain. Everybody's life is different. I was trying to get some insight into what yours looks like. This episode is brought to you by Peloton. Everyone has a reason to change. Growing old, heartbreak, a fresh start. Whatever it may be, Peloton is here to get you through life's biggest moments with workouts you can do on your time and motivation that keeps you coming back. Peloton's tread and all Access membership help you track progress in classes from runs to Pilates, making you stronger and your fitness goals a reality. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton visit onepalaton.com Right now the Home Depot has spring deals under $20. So what are you working on? If you're planning on cooking out there, head to the Home Depot so you can fire up the grill with deals on charcoal. Right now, get two 16 pound bags of Kingsford charcoal for only $17.88 was $19.98. Don't miss spring deals under $20 now through May 7th at the home Depot. Subject to availability. Valid on select items only. First off, Joyce Maynard has a great memoir called the Best of Us. Great. Also very sad. Have you read anything else by her?

[Jill Jacklin]

I have not, no.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay, you don't need memoir ideas, but as I was unsure where we were going with this nonfiction thing, I was thinking of this book. This is her very personal story of understanding love through loss. She met her late husband when they were both in their late 50s. Neither one of them ever intended to get married again. They met, she made some joke. I'm trying to remember. I think she made some joke about, like, oh, you're totally too short for me. We could never be together in any sense. And then they get married. But not long after their first wedding anniversary, he is diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. And so their marriage, that they felt so lucky to find each other at this later place in their lives ended up being very short. But I think it has so many of those same elements that you enjoy in your fiction from a writer that you have enjoyed. There's no magical realism here, as in the Byrd Hotel, but this is also very much about the choices people make. Something I think that's so interesting about reading nonfiction from our favorite novelists is we can often see the seeds of their personal experience in a more developed way that informed their fiction. And we just didn't realize that they were writing about something very close to their own experience. Oh, gosh. I love the Maggie O'Farrell memoir. I am, I Am, I Am for this very reason. I don't know if you've read her. She does seem like an author. You may enjoy.

[Jill Jacklin]

It's funny. I did read Hamnet. I did not love it. I think it was a little too slow for me. It was a little too quiet for me.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay. I Am, I Am, I Am is the story of, I think, 13 very personal brushes with death. It's one of the, I think, the scariest things, not in a horror sense, but like, oh, my goodness, this happened. This could happen. It felt like it had various high stakes, but I thought, oh, there's that character I loved from that one novel. And there's that character I loved from that other novel. And I can see how she finessed this story and made it fiction in that other novel. It was fascinating in that sense. The Husbands was not a great fit for you. I Wonder if Gillian McAllister's wrong place, wrong Time might be. Have you read this book?

[Jill Jacklin]

I have not. It's been on my list. I know you rave about it a lot.

[Anne Bogle]

Yes, I do. Mostly in Patreon, though, and not on the Maiden feed. If listeners are thinking, what? Really? This is a. It's not sliding doors. It's a time loop where a British woman looks out her window one October 30, the night before Halloween, and sees her son commit a terrible crime and devastating, life changing. No going back from this moment. When she wakes up the next morning, ready to face the first day of the rest of their lives, they're going to go down to the station and talk about. I mean, I don't even have words for that it's not the next day, it's the day before the crime occurred. And she begins to realize, with the very convenient help of a physicist friend of a friend, that she's in some sort of time loop. And what she has to do is understand some key issues in her most intimate relationships as she keeps moving back in time, days and then months and then years, to go back to the very roots of those relationships so she can, like, in a sense, undo whatever it was that put her family on the path to her son committing that crime. So that sounds a little zany, but the tone is very. I mean, the emotions feel very real. It's very thoughtful. It feels earnest. I wonder if that execution feels like more of what you're looking for from your story. Oh, my gosh, talk about a novel, about the choices people make.

[Jill Jacklin]

Yes, I'm definitely sensitive to tone and when something feels legitimate, all of those things, yes.

[Anne Bogle]

Jill, let's talk about your nonfiction. Now, I do not presume that what has worked for me will work for you, but may I tell you about the problem I saw in my fumbling attempts to solve it? And what didn't work for me may very well work for other people. But, like, our reading lives are our own. Our lives are our own. And this is all highly personal, and that is okay. But there's no, like, out of the box solution.

[Jill Jacklin]

Absolutely.

[Anne Bogle]

So my problem, the first question there is, like, Anne, was this really a problem? But I'm telling you, I had these books I wanted to read that were never getting read. And these were books predominantly that I wanted to read for information. I already mentioned Ron Liebers, the price you pay for college. Now, it may be interesting, it may be well written, but when I sit down in my reading time, or especially like, when I get in bed at night and I have my, like, 15 on a bad night, 60 on a good one, minutes to, like, enjoy a story. I want to be reading a story, like fiction or memoir or something that has a compelling personal story element. I'm thinking, like, I can remember reading how the word is passed by Clint Smith, which is a series of very personal stories. Even as he's weaving in real difficult history to the pages, it still felt personal and story driven. How many times can we say story? I didn't want to be reading for information. So after lots of experimentation, well, let me tell you what that looked like. So I thought maybe some days I would read for information, but I just, like, dreaded those days. I thought maybe if I read a chapter of the nonfiction first, and then I read my story. Well, then it felt like reading my broccoli. Reading my broccoli. Yeah, I guess that works. Mixing metaphors. But I love it. And I just like wanted to race through it. But what I ultimately ended up, oh, I. I would try to like fit reading in in like a 20 minute pocket or with lunch during the day of that informational nonfiction. And then I just, I didn't want to read. And again, these books are not bad. But if I'm in the middle of a novel, if it's any good at all, I want to know what happens next in the novel. And I think one of the reasons I read so much is like, I'm a sucker for a good narrative drive. Like, I want to know what happens next, next. That's not a good thing. It might actually be a bad thing. But it is a true thing. But what I ended up doing was creating a time for morning reading. And this would not have worked for me at other stages in my life. Like in stages where I'm book writing, that is often the very first thing I do in the morning with my coffee. And that's not, I'm not writing a book right now, so this works. But I make my coffee, I sit down, and then I have a few personal daily readers that I'm reading for me in a more like global, even spiritual sense. And I have some like more personal morning things I go through. But then when I'm finished with those in the remaining time I have allotted, and sometimes this depends on what. Like, it ends at 7am so if I happen to wake up early, I'll have a little more time. And if I don't, I may have no time or even just five minutes. But I will spend that time reading whatever nonfiction book I'm reading right now. So this means I work my way through those pretty slowly. I read between 0 and maybe 30 pages a day on a long reading day. But I am reading these books in a way I didn't before now. Before, I might read all in a hurry. Like, oh my gosh, I just found out that I need to get educated really quickly about adhd. And depending on the urgency I feel, I will wedge those books into reading time. But if there's no rush, if I don't have like a looming college deadline that got me to read Ron Lieber really fast, then I need a place I can count on to catch those pages. Gosh, is that a terrible metaphor?

[Jill Jacklin]

No, it actually totally makes sense. And it's exactly how I'm feeling.

[Anne Bogle]

Are you in a hurry to read any of these books?

[Jill Jacklin]

No, but I was chuckling to myself. Right. When it's something we need to do, right, for our family or for whatever it is, we find the time. But if it's not a rush, it takes a backseat. But, no, none of these are urgent. Okay.

[Anne Bogle]

And I heard you say you're not sure if you even want to read all these books start to finish. Is that right?

[Jill Jacklin]

Correct.

[Anne Bogle]

Jill, as we're talking about potential things, people or like that I have done, are you thinking of possible approaches you could experiment with?

[Jill Jacklin]

I am. I'm thinking. So I have this theory of my reading life. If I'm ever in a slump, I'll just grab a book and just start reading, and it'll either break me out of it, I won't like that book. I will like that book and then move on. And so there's a part of me that's just saying, okay, just grab the book and start reading, and you'll figure it out pretty quickly. Beyond that, I have not specifically set the time aside and say, okay, spend 20 minutes. But I could. I have the time, and I have the ability to do that. So beyond that, I have not. And I haven't really discussed it out loud. I mean, this is the first time I'm discussing it, and so it's helpful to discuss it and see how that feels. It's also helpful to have somebody else say, yeah, yeah, that's a great idea, or, this is what I'm doing. And that will then be like, okay, well, this has worked for other people. I can try that. And again, I may not like information books, and I may say, you know what? It's not for you, and keep doing what you had been doing, But I do. It is one of these things that is niggling in the back of my brain that's saying, you need to just try and see if these are for you or not.

[Anne Bogle]

Yeah. As I'm looking at these books on your shelf, I'm noticing that some of them actually have a strong story emphasis. Like, I'm looking at Michelle Obama's the Light We Carry, Adam Grant's Think Again. This is an informational book, but he drives the point home with many, many stories. And it's also very much about the choices people make. Switch by Chip and Dan Heath, kind of the same, like, why do we make the decisions we do? With lots of real life, concrete examples that go on for pages, not just paragraphs. I think it'd be interesting to notice to what Extent these feel akin to your, we'll call it regular reading. And to what extent they do feel like something entirely different. I'm also wondering, and this is going to sound wild on a book podcast, I wonder if thinking about these books as deliverers of information in that sense, as opposed to thinking about them as akin to reading the Poisonwood Bible, would help your brain know what to expect, know what to anticipate, be satisfied with what is coming next in a way that I. I don't believe I'm hearing is currently working out that way.

[Jill Jacklin]

I like that it's a little bit of a shift that makes sense.

[Anne Bogle]

When do you read the existing informational sources in your life?

[Jill Jacklin]

It is throughout the day. In terms of the newspaper, the news. I could just be sitting at my desk reading a little bit. I will say magazines I will do. If we're watching television in the evening, I'll have a magazine with me, but I'm not paying so much attention to the magazine. But I would say the news is read throughout the day here and there.

[Anne Bogle]

Maybe that could be something to think about.

[Jill Jacklin]

I like that. I like that shift.

[Anne Bogle]

You know, my brain wants to come up with all these nonfiction books that are delivering information in a really storied package. I think you have some on the spectrum here, but we're not here to pile up that shelf with more books. We are discussing today how we might help you find a comfortable approach to that shelf.

[Jill Jacklin]

Great. And also part of it is that we discussed as well is do I even like those kinds of books? I like what you said about the two or three that you mentioned that are on my shelf, that there are stories woven in there and it's a good tone. I do think tone is important to me as I read a book, and if it's preachy, I probably am not going to like it. And so I'm curious to see. And then I reserve the right to come back to you, Anne, and say, no, these are the ones I like. Can you give me more informational ones that are.

[Anne Bogle]

Story like that would be a fun conversation to have. All right, Jill, how are you feeling?

[Jill Jacklin]

More settled? Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited with my new. My new challenge.

[Anne Bogle]

All right, what's your plan?

[Jill Jacklin]

My plan is to take one of them out, probably one of the three you just mentioned that are on my shelf, and start it a little bit throughout the day and see how that feels.

[Anne Bogle]

Okay. What do you think you might read next?

[Jill Jacklin]

Oh, in fairness, I'm probably going to read a fiction book. Come on.

[Anne Bogle]

Anne well, yeah, which one?

[Jill Jacklin]

I will grab one of the books off my shelf. I'm going to grab the Adam Grant book or the Michelle Obama book and see how it feels as I'm selecting a new fiction book. Right. So it won't be the primary book, it'll be a secondary book, if you will, as I read whatever my next fiction book, which could be the Wrong Place, Wrong Time.

[Anne Bogle]

All right, well, I'm excited to hear what you think about both of them. Jill, thank you so much for trusting me and our listeners with your readerly dilemma.

[Jill Jacklin]

Thank you so much, Anne. This was such a delight.

[Anne Bogle]

Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Jill and I'd love to hear what you think she may enjoy reading next. If you have tips, strategies, experience with incorporating different genres or different kinds of reading into your life, we would love to hear that as well. Find the full list of titles and share your comments at what Should I read next? Podcast.com find us over on Instagram at what Should I Read Next? And please tag us if you share an episode with your community Community. That's a quick and easy way to help spread the word about our show and invite your friends to join our listening community. The easiest way to keep up with all of the what Should I Read Next? News is by joining our email list. Sign up for updates at whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com newsletter and please make sure you're following in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, wherever you like to get your podcasts, subscribing and automatically download Downloading each new episode tells these networks that you're interested in our show, and that helps increase our visibility to new listeners. Thanks so much for taking a moment to check your settings on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks to the people who make the show happen. What Should I Read Next? Is created each week by Will Bogle, Holly Wilkachevsky, and Studio D Podcast Production readers. That's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening and as Reiner Maria Rilke said, ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading. Happy reading everyone.