Ellen Heath (5:16)

Thank you. It's great to be here.

Anne Bogle (5:18)

Oh, I'm so excited to talk today. We were just talking about how I know your name from our community, and I've known for a long time that you're an urban planner. And I'm just really excited to dig into that fun little bonus topic, but also all the things about your reading life and what you're looking for right now.

Ellen Heath (5:35)

Great.

Anne Bogle (5:36)

So thanks for coming on. Ellen, would you start by telling us a little bit about yourself? We want to give our readers a glimpse of who you are.

Ellen Heath (5:45)

I live in Atlanta with my husband and what are really his two cats, although they tolerate me, sort of. And as you said, I'm a retired urban planner, and I worked for a long time as a consultant, which was really a great career, I have to say. I traveled quite, quite a bit around the United States, working for different communities. But now I'm enjoying having as much time as I want to read, as well as do other activities.

Anne Bogle (6:16)

Ellen, what about your reading life? Would you tell us a little bit about that?

Ellen Heath (6:20)

Well, like most of your guests, I think I'm a lifelong reader. I think I put in my submission one of my first school memories is sitting during recess on the curb with my best friend Betty reading the Bobsy twins while all the other kids ran around and played. So reading has always been a big part of my life. My mother was an English teacher and a big reader, too, so she definitely encouraged me. You know, later, Betty and I would walk to the library together after school and look at all. This is a small town, so it wasn't a huge library, and we, you know, there wasn't a lot of ya back then like there is now. So we just kind of read whatever we wanted to, and they let us take out whatever we wanted to. So that was fun. So I continued being a reader, you know, through my life. I got a Kindle, I think, around 2010, and I traveled quite a bit for my job. And so that just really changed my life in terms of making reading easier. And I never had to panic, you know, was I gonna finish my book, too? Soon or did I forget my book? And so I still pretty much. I think of my primary reading as on my Kindle. And then at the beginning of COVID I thought, well, maybe this is because, you know, no other activities were going on. This is a good time to start reading some of my real books, too. And that's how I know I got my Kindle in 2010. Because when I went to look at all the books on my shelves, they kind of stopped at 2010. So I knew that was when I started going the electronic route. So usually I have ebook going and a real book going and sometimes audio. I'm not real big on audio except for nonfiction. And generally, I like historical fiction, literary fiction. I do read a lot of mysteries as well. I think of those as kind of my lighter reading. And I like narrative nonfiction, too.

Anne Bogle (8:17)

Okay, that's so funny that the absence of books on your shelves really indicates a change in your reading life, but maybe not a format change. Ellen, you mentioned in your submission that you have perhaps a less common way of choosing what to read next. You didn't elaborate, but I'm so curious. Could you say more?

Ellen Heath (8:38)

As I said, I think of my primary reading as on my Kindle. And partially when I was working, I didn't even have the discipline to keep a tbr. So if I saw a book, if I read about or heard about a book that I was interested in, I just buy it on my Kindle. So I have about 100 books on my Kindle usually. And what I do is I just go through it kind of systematically to make sure that I'm not just only reading the latest and greatest. So, like, for example, right now I'm reading a book that was on page four, you know, when you toggle through your books. So the next one has to come from page five. And what makes it kind of ridiculously complicated is, you know, it used to be in list format. There were like eight or nine books on the list. And that was, you know, that was a good number to choose from. Well, six now really is not quite enough. So now I look at, well, let's sort by title, let's sort by author, let's sort by most recent. And then there's another one, publication date. So I sorted all the different ways, and I see what's on page five. When I'm at 60% in my current book, I go ahead and go through the list and make a list of kind of the eligible titles. And then for the last 40% of my book, I think about what's the next one I'm going to read. And I try to go back and forth between kind of serious and less serious. I don't like to read too many kind of things, same thing at the same time. So if I'm reading a mystery, my next one will be a historical fiction or a literary fiction and vice versa. And then I balance whatever I'm reading on my Kindle, my hardcover. I just pick something different from what I have on my Kindle. So I feel like it is a little over complicated, but it works for me. And if there's something I don't like, I tell myself I don't have to finish it. You know, all of these books are ones that at one time I thought I was interested in. So I don't want to. You know, maybe it's been on there for three years and I don't remember where I heard about it or why I thought it, but I would say 95% of the time when I get into it, it's like, oh, yeah, well, this was a good choice. I really like it. So it works for me, keeps the balance. And it's kind of a forced discipline. You know, if you have 100 books, how do you even begin to pick? So it's a way of narrowing it down.

Anne Bogle (11:13)

I love that. Okay, so let me see if I understand. Most of the time, then it sounds like you're not reading the thing you just purchased, correct?

Ellen Heath (11:23)

Very, very, very rarely. In fact, if I. If I'm torn between two books, I'll go with the one that I've had the longest and save the later one, you know, for later.

Anne Bogle (11:36)

How long are we talking about? So if you're debating between two books and you go with the one you've read the longest, are we talking like six months old or six years old?

Ellen Heath (11:44)

Probably closer to six years.

Anne Bogle (11:47)

Ooh, okay. This is fun. I like it. So what you're doing is you're acquiring books for your personal collection, right. That go into your stores. So I'm noticing that as you're deciding what to buy, it's not, I would imagine, mood dependent. You're thinking, oh, no, what kind of book does future me want to read?

Ellen Heath (12:06)

That's right. And you know what I think? I feel sometimes, obviously there's all kinds of readers and everyone is different. But I have to say I really don't understand the idea of, well, if a book is set in the summer, I have to read it in the summer. If anything, I'm the opposite. You know, if I'm traveling somewhere I don't wanna read a book that's set where I'm traveling. I'll read that before I go and I'll read it after I come home. But ever since I was a child, what I really like about reading is that it takes me out of my life. Not that my life is bad, but it takes me to a different place, you know, So I don't really. When people say that they read seasonally, that's something that I never in a million years would think of. In fact, if I'm sweltering on my porch in July reading a book about snow, that's great because it helps me imagine something different.

Anne Bogle (13:07)

So for you, not only does a book contain entire worlds, but a book is a contained world that exists apart from whatever's happening for you and around you.

Ellen Heath (13:17)

Yeah, that's right. I just want it to be different.

Anne Bogle (13:20)

Okay. I love this for you. And also, it means we can't narrow it down seasonally. We gotta. Yeah, that's hard for me.

Ellen Heath (13:29)

That's right.

Anne Bogle (13:30)

All right. It is what it is, though, and I'm excited to find out what your reading life is actually like. Ellen, you also mentioned just now that if you don't like a book that you've started because it sounds like you read the books that come up in your formulaic search process, but you mentioned in your submission that you are on a quest to dnf more books or mark them did not complete, but you do want to start them. I'd love to hear more about this.

Ellen Heath (13:57)

Well, I'm doing better, you know, and I rarely read a book that I really don't like. I'm actually pretty good at choosing books for myself. I think that's one thing that a lot of experience in old age gets you, you know, but there's, you know, a lot of times I just finish. It's like, ah, that was, you know, four days of my life I'll never get back. And so I. I wish that I had abandoned it earlier, but there's something that always tells me, you know, but it might get better and it might be interesting. And I was thinking about that, actually. I was listening to a recent episode and your guest talked about the book the Luminaries, which I read. That is a tough go. Very dense and very long. And there were times when I really thought about abandoning it, and I didn't. I finished it and I was so glad I did. The payoff was worth it. And so, you know, that's just an example of. It's just difficult sometimes to really just give up on it because something interested me in the first place about the premise or whatever. But I have since I made this resolution for this year, I think I've. I think there's four or five books that I didn't finish. So I'm feeling pretty good because I only had one last year. And you know, it's usually, I mean, there was one that was. Even though it was written by a woman, it was old. It was the beginning of a long mystery, you know, multi volume mystery series. And I really thought the language was kind of sexist. It's like, I don't want to read this. So I did. I didn't. And there were a couple others. Like one I just didn't like the writing, didn't think it was very good. So, you know, I'm getting better at it. But I guess I'd be curious to hear what you or what other people, how they think about that.

Anne Bogle (15:46)

Okay. I'm very interested in this question because I believe what happened was when I asked you about wanting to dnf more books, you told me why you were glad you didn't. For the Luminaries.

Ellen Heath (15:58)

Exactly. Right.

Anne Bogle (15:59)

So I can like feel the tension here.

Ellen Heath (16:02)

That's why I have a hard time doing it.

Anne Bogle (16:04)

Yeah. Yeah. That's understandable. Yeah. Okay. Well, I don't have any crystal balls on offer today, but I wish I did. But I hear you on the Luminaries and no, I haven't read it yet and I have loved what I've read from Eleanor Catton, but the luminaries is almost 900 pages.

Ellen Heath (16:22)

Really? Oh, it seems longer.

Anne Bogle (16:24)

Yeah. That's quite an investment.

Ellen Heath (16:26)

Well, you like structure too, and that is. It's a very interesting structure.

Anne Bogle (16:30)

I love an interesting structure. It's very true. I'm a verbal processor. Ellen, I wonder if we can talk our way to a solution here. What appeals to you about the idea of Ellen, the reader who does more freely abandon books?

Ellen Heath (16:48)

She begins, I think just a better use of my time. You know, the whole idea of, you know, the sunk cost fallacy. I think, well, gosh, I've spent three hours reading this book. Do I really want to waste all that by not finishing it? So that's part of it. I think I said this in my submission. 12 years of Catholic school, you know, it was, you finish what you start. So that's sort of nagging me too. And I want to feel like I'm giving doing the author justice. The author probably doesn't care I've bought his or her book. And that's what they care about. But so I don't know. There's a lot that goes into it.

Anne Bogle (17:28)

Public school graduate here, but, you know, firstborn, overachieving daughter. I hear you finish what you start.

Ellen Heath (17:37)

Gases.

Anne Bogle (17:38)

Ellen, for those books that you did set aside without completing them, how did you know that was your move?

Ellen Heath (17:47)

You know, you had mentioned that the book is kind of a alternate world for me. And it really is like, I just don't want to be in this world. One of them, it was the Seven and a Half Deaths of Evelyn Cardcastle. And the beginning, it described this house that was run down and dirty. And I think there's vermin maybe. And, you know, it was just so dark and unpleasant. And I just thought, I really don't want to be here. So I just didn't finish it. And I had no regrets on that one, I have to say. So that's an example. And, you know, if the writing isn't good, I definitely don't want to hang in there for that one.

Anne Bogle (18:35)

I am sorry to say that no one can answer this question but you.

Ellen Heath (18:38)

Yeah.

Anne Bogle (18:38)

For when a book is right for you to dnf. I do know that we read very differently. And on my end, I'm often reading for a specific purpose.

Ellen Heath (18:46)

Sure.

Anne Bogle (18:47)

I'm reading for entertainment. I'm reading for escape. I'm reading to find titles for the summer reading guide. And when I pick up a book and, like, know, either because I've told myself in words or I just know why I'm reading it, it makes it easier for me to vet because I've made the question smaller. I'm not asking, is there any universe in which I will be sorry I put this down before I get to the end. Instead, I'm asking, is this book what I'm looking for right now for this specific purpose? And that's an easier question because it doesn't allow for as many possibilities of what, say, worthwhile, for example, could look like. And you're reading for different reasons, but you do have reasons for your reading.

Ellen Heath (19:32)

Yes.

Anne Bogle (19:33)

And so I'm noticing that when you don't want to be in the world, that's a sign for you to put down the book. And I don't hear you saying, like, it's not interesting or you don't want to be challenged or it's difficult, like it's not a world you want to step into. Kind of akin to that. If you notice that you're not reading because your current read is the book you're reading and you don't want to be reading that book. I think that would be a real sign to step back and ask yourself why.

Ellen Heath (20:00)

Oh, that's a good point. Yeah. And that does happen. And I still stick with it usually.

Anne Bogle (20:06)

And I would really reflect on. I mean, you have your whole Kindle history of what you've read. Like, how has that worked out for you? Like, can you see that you're glad you stuck? Glad is a funny word. Like, vocabulary that I like to use is, was it worth my reading time? I can hate a book and still find it to be worth my reading time.

Ellen Heath (20:26)

Agreed.

Anne Bogle (20:26)

But if I feel like I flushed the hours, I don't want to feel that way. And I heard you say that the writing just wasn't good in some of the books you set aside, which really points at. One of the reasons you're. You're reading is because you want to experience good writing. And you may say it more elegantly or put a different spin on it than I just did, but there's something there about. You want the writing to be good.

Ellen Heath (20:50)

Oh, absolutely.

Anne Bogle (20:51)

Yeah. And so when you encounter those things, like, you realize, this isn't a world I want to be in, or I'm not. I haven't read in four days. What's going on? You're not liking the writing. You can either DNF or just regroup. Like, step back and do some online research, talk to people you know who have read it, ask around and assess what's going on here. Where am I? What do I know about this book? Do I want to keep going? Or is it time to maybe bid it goodbye for now?

Ellen Heath (21:23)

Sounds good.

Anne Bogle (21:24)

Is any of that different?

Ellen Heath (21:26)

Yeah, a little bit. It's giving me some things to think about.

Anne Bogle (21:29)

I wish I could just, like, grab the right tool off the, you know, the end cap at Paper Source and be like, oh, this is what you need. This will tell you life doesn't work that way. For better or worse, the reading life doesn't work like that either. Ellen, I believe you've been brought a few urban planning books with you today. Is that right?

Ellen Heath (21:46)

That's right.

Anne Bogle (21:47)

Okay, let's talk about the books you love and that you've read lately. We'll let those marinate for you, and you can tell me about books I may love.

Ellen Heath (21:58)

Okay.

Anne Bogle (21:59)

And then I'll put some books on your potential plate. How does that sound?

Ellen Heath (22:02)

Sounds great.

Anne Bogle (22:02)

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Ellen Heath (24:59)

I really just thought about what are books that, you know, in the last year or so have really stuck with me. To me, that's a indication of the ones that rise to the top are the ones that I don't forget about.

Anne Bogle (25:14)

Heartily agree. A book with staying power gets extra marks in my book. Right. And also when it goes back to that worthwhile reading experience. I'm not saying you chose books you didn't like, but I really respect a book that I disliked but still think about years later.

Ellen Heath (25:29)

Yes, I agree.

Anne Bogle (25:31)

I don't think that's what you brought today, though. No, not at all. What is the first book you love?

Ellen Heath (25:36)

The first one is Clear by Carys C A R Y S Davies, and it is historical fiction. And to me it's the best kind of historical fiction because it taught me about something I knew absolutely nothing about, had never even heard of. And that was the Highland Clearances, which happened in Scotland and I think maybe the broader UK too, but definitely in Scotland, the late 18th and early 19th century. It was when there was a very long traditional system of tenant farming and the landowners decided that wasn't working well for them financially. So they just kicked everybody off the land and said, go find a factory job or go find somewhere else to live because you're not going to be here anymore. So that's kind of the background. And our characters are John Ferguson, who is a minister in the Scottish Church, and there's also some kind of, I don't remember exactly now, some kind of schism that's going on in the church. And he is temporarily out of a job and so he gets hired to go to a very remote island in Scotland. And and there's a single one person tenant who lives there and he is going there to evict that person. He goes on a boat, somebody takes him there. And very early, before he even meets the guy who's living there, whose name is Ivan, he has an accident he falls off a cliff or some. He has some kind of an accident when he's walking around and he's incapacitated. Well, Ivan comes across him on the beach and takes him in. And the sense of place in this book is just incredible. And that's, you know, character and setting are the most important things to me. With plot kind of down the list. I mean, I like a good plot, but it's not as important to me as those other two things. And so now John is staying in Ivan's cottage or cabin, his little house that he has. And Ivan is nursing him back to health, not knowing, of course, why he's there. And the real complicating factor is they don't speak the same language. So they really. They can't communicate verbally at all. John stays there and is different for Ivan because he's used to being by himself all the time and, you know, not communicating with anyone. And John starts to learn his language a little bit. And she plays a lot with language. You know, language is something that interests me. So I enjoyed that too. And there's even a little bit glossary in the back. He speaks a dialect of. And I had never heard of this norn n o r n language. Then meanwhile, we have. John is married. And Mary, his wife, is back in Scotland, back on the mainland of Scotland. And she's like, why isn't he coming back? He was only supposed to be gone for a few days. And so she starts to get worried and decides to go and find him. So that's kind of the tension in one of the tensions in the book. It's very short. I don't even think it's 200 pages. The sense of place, the way the relationship between the two men develops. And the prose was just wonderful. Really good writing and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

Anne Bogle (29:05)

I'm so glad you found that book. And it was such a good fit for you. And what you said about character and setting being the most important. I'm definitely filing that away. That book came into the house of. And I don't know if it was the COVID or the description, but my husband Will looks at almost everything that comes in the house. I know some of your ears are perking up cause you say Will Bogle is your book twin. But he read that before me. Cause he thought it sounded great and then was like, Anne, this is great. You have to read it next.

Ellen Heath (29:28)

Oh, good.

Anne Bogle (29:29)

So Will and Annie Jones. I wonder how often their tastes sync up now. I'm extra curious about that.

Ellen Heath (29:34)

Right. Oh, you know Tell him I read the Billion Butterflies book. Ooh, it was good.

Anne Bogle (29:43)

Okay, I will tell him.

Ellen Heath (29:44)

And I'm not a science person at all and I didn't think it was too much science.

Anne Bogle (29:49)

Now I'm trying to think where he said that. Readers, what we're talking about is Will read a book. Oh, you know, it was Will and I did our summer reading guide episode.

Ellen Heath (29:58)

Yes, that's what it was.

Anne Bogle (29:59)

Okay. He often will ask me like, hey, you have approximately 500 books to read. Can I like help you pre vet some of these, especially the nonfiction and especially like the S.A. cosby, David Joy, Eli Cranor, like that kind of wheelhouse. And so he read A Billion Butterflies and I didn't end up reading it, but I will pass that. I mean, he's listening now, but I will pass that along to him.

Ellen Heath (30:24)

Yeah.

Anne Bogle (30:24)

Ellen, what's the second book you love?

Ellen Heath (30:27)

The second book is called the Safekeep and it's by Yael van der Wouden.

Anne Bogle (30:33)

Oh, I'm so intrigued. I've heard such a wide ranging views on this, but I haven't read it yet.

Ellen Heath (30:39)

I think it was shortlisted for the Booker. Yeah, well, it is set in the Netherlands and it's also, I guess, historical fiction. It was in the early 60s and our main character is Isabel and she is around 30 years old. She is a very isolated, repressed and suspicious person. She's really not a likable character at all. She doesn't work or anything. She lives in her family home. Her parents are not with her, they're deceased and she has two brothers. She doesn't really seem to have any other relationships outside of an uncle and these two brothers. And one of the brothers has a series of girlfriends that he's always introducing and then they're not around for very long. And at the beginning of the book we meet the newest girl. They're all having dinner together and she really takes a dislike to this girlfriend whose name is Eva. Well, not too long after that the brother shows up at the door with Eva and says, I have to go to Paris on business for a month or somewhere. On business. And can Eva stay with you? Because she can't really stay in our place because there's a male roommate and blah, blah, blah. Well, the last thing is about is for her to stay there because she doesn't want anybody there and she really doesn't want her there. But she doesn't feel like she can say no because this house technically really belongs to the brother. So she takes her in and she's A very suspicious person. She always thinks her housekeeper is stealing things from her. She counts her spoons regularly, you know, stuff like that. And she's just a very negative and tries to make everybody around her unhappy, it seems like. So Eva moves in for several weeks and their relationship changes, I'll just put it that way. And there's a little, you know, this book is billed as a little bit of a mystery. I have to say. It was really just all about the relationship of these two women. And there's another woman who's the housekeeper that is in it a little bit. And the brothers. And it goes along and then like two thirds of the way through, there's a big surprise. And it was one that I certainly did not see coming. And it kind of changes your perspective on everything of why Eva is there and who she really is. And I thoroughly enjoyed it. It was very well written, a good sense of place, good character development, even though the main character was. I don't mind an unlikable character if, you know, it makes sense. And I just thought it was very well done and thoroughly enjoyed it.

Anne Bogle (33:28)

Okay, that is a more thorough description of what happens in this book that I have read before. I'm really glad it worked for you.

Ellen Heath (33:36)

I will say a little bit of a content warning. There's some steamy scenes.

Anne Bogle (33:40)

Thanks for the hot tip. Ellen, what's the third book you love?

Ellen Heath (33:44)

The third book is Mr. Loverman by Bernadine Evaristo. I had read her Girl, Woman Other, which I actually think won a Booker Prize several years ago. And I loved that book. It's really linked short stories about black women in the uk. Very good. And so I looked for other things that she had written and this was what I found. Mr. Loverman could not be more different from Girl, Woman Other, but if anything, I liked it more. Our hero is Barrington Jedediah Walker. He goes by Barry. And he and his wife Carmel emigrated to London when they were in their 20s from Antigua. So they're part of the Caribbean community in London. And he is now 70 something years old. He and his wife have both been very unhappy in their marriage the entire time. And this is because he is having a very long time affair with his best friend Morris, who also emigrated from Antigua with his wife. His wife is unhappy. She doesn't know why. Barry does know why, but he's struggling with it. But he finally something happens and he says, okay, this is it. I am getting out of this marriage. I'm gonna be honest about, you know, what's really going on. But then his wife is called away, her father's dying, so she goes has to go back to Antigua. And now he's struggling with the decision of what to do. You know, he hangs out with Morris all the time. Everybody knows Morris as his best friend. And what made it so the character of Barry is so appealing. He's just really funny. He's like this real dapper guy, man about town, you know, going to all the cafes and you know, he had a job that he kind of liked, I think. But now he's retired and he's just kind of living the life. Except that, you know, it's just ingrained in him that he can't be open about his true self. And it's really kind of a. It's a sad story because here are these, you know, unhappy people because they can't be who they really want to be. But it's just. It's very light hearted and funny. There's a scene with his wife and her church lady friends. They all come for Sunday dinner after church and they are all sitting around the kitchen and they're just ragging on him, you know, and it is just hilarious and you know, it's poignant and we do get the point of view of the wife. Most of the book is in the first person from Barry's point of view. But there are chapters scattered and they're all in flashback where you kind of go back to the beginning of the marriage and you see how, you know, she always knew something was quite right, but she never suspected what. So that is the book and it was really the character of Barry and the humor of the narrative that really attracted me and I just really enjoyed it.

Anne Bogle (37:00)

Thank you for sharing that one. Like so many readers, I've only read Girl, Woman Other, which yes, won The Booker in 2019 and some of her essays. But I haven't read this older work. But I really like that description. Ellen, would you tell us about a book now that did not work for you? And I'd love to hear why it wasn't a great fit. Like, was the timing wrong? Was it not to your taste? Was it about a topic you wanted to avoid?

Ellen Heath (37:29)

Well, this is, you know, and a lot of people say these about their books. They don't love this one. I know I'm in the minority for this one. Cause I just hear a lot of, you know, high praise for this book. But it's hello Beautiful by Anna Politano. And the reason that it really didn't work for me was I just didn't like the main character, you know, it's about four sisters. And as I said earlier, I think I don't mind a dislikable character and it normally doesn't ruin a book for me, but it does if I think I'm supposed to like her. You know what I mean? It's like she. It seemed like it was. The book seemed like it was positive toward the decisions that she was making, which I just thought she treated her husband and one of her sisters just terribly and in a very selfish way. And so I just didn't like it. And then when I was thinking about talking about it today, it occurred to me, I also think I'm just sort of getting tired of family dramas. You know, there are so many of them and they all kind of run together in my head, and it's just not my favorite genre these days. I may go and I'm sure I'll continue reading them because a lot of them are good, but this one just was not for me.

Anne Bogle (38:50)

Duly noted. Okay. And I wonder if that's a question of trust, the way you're describing this. If you feel like an author is intending to have you draw a certain judgment from the words on the page and you're getting something different, I wonder if that just makes you uneasy in the story in general.

Ellen Heath (39:09)

Could be. Could be. That makes sense.

Anne Bogle (39:12)

Okay. Noted on unlikable characters being just fine by you, perhaps even interesting. Not perhaps, of course they're interesting, but you know what I mean. Ellen, what have you been reading lately?

Ellen Heath (39:26)

I recently read We Solve Murders by Richard Osmond, which was a pleasant surprise because I felt like I had read or heard that maybe it was not as good as the Thursday Murder Club. This is a new series that he's writing. There are three main characters. One is a very rich author. Another is her bodyguard, a young woman, and then the bodyguard's father in law, who is an ex cop. It has the same tone, I would say, as Thursday Murder Club, but it's more of caper kind of a thing where. And they are traveling all over the world, you know, avoiding assassins and big bags of money. And it's just kind of a fun thing. And the thing I love about him, the Thursday Murder Club, as well as this one, is that, you know, he has such an affection for his characters and it's just so funny. There's times I just laugh out loud. So I really enjoyed that. And then the other one is Women of Troy by Pat Barker. And that is the second book in a trilogy which is the stories of the Iliad and the Odyssey, but told from the point of view of the women of Troy who have been captured by the Greeks and made to do all kinds of terrible things. And Pat Barker, I had read her. I think it's called the Regeneration trilogy, about soldiers coming home from World War I with PTSD and a psychiatrist who's trying to help them, which are based on real people. This is very interesting story. I'm not really real conversant with the Iliad and the Odyssey. I mean, you know, I know I knew the bare bones of the outlines of the story, but I just found this to be very interesting. Very well written.

Anne Bogle (41:16)

Ellen, thanks for sharing those. Those give me a good idea of what catches your eye. And I'm noticing this interest in, I mean, I don't mean this disparaging at all, but we still have murders is almost like kind of silly in a really fun way. You really like that amusing quality in Mr. Lover man? Different sense of humor, but also it feels light and kind of bubbly, fizzy.

Ellen Heath (41:39)

Agreed. You need that every now and then.

Anne Bogle (41:41)

You know you do. Or at least I find that I do.

Ellen Heath (41:44)

Yes, I do, too.

Anne Bogle (41:46)

Ellen, what are you looking for in your reading life right now?

Ellen Heath (41:49)

You know, I'm just always looking for immersive books. Hope you know that either are entertaining, but probably more have an interesting setting and I can learn something. That's why I often gravitate toward historical fiction, I think, except for World War II. I'm over that.

Anne Bogle (42:12)

Duly noted. All right, we're going to set that on to simmer for 10 minutes. Can we talk about urban planning?

Ellen Heath (42:19)

Oh, sure.

Anne Bogle (42:20)

Gosh, I don't even know what I don't know or what to ask. Would you give a quick overview of what you did in your time as a professional planner?

Ellen Heath (42:27)

When I first got out of graduate school, I got a master's in planning at Georgia Tech. I worked for the National Park Service at the Martin Luther King Jr. National Historic Site, which was newly designated at that time. So they had a lot of planning documents that had to be done. And that was fascinating. Learned a lot, worked there for three or four years. And then that job ended and I went and got a job, was hired by a consulting firm. And I never in a million years thought I would stay at the same job for 30 years. But I did. And I think it was because consulting was, you know, it was never the same. I always had different clients. If there was something I didn't like, a project I didn't like, or people I didn't like it wasn't going to last forever and you always had something new. And I really enjoyed learning about different communities and working with people to, to kind of visualize what they want their communities to be. So I did a lot of work with local governments just doing comprehend what we call comprehensive plans, which is for the whole city or county or whatever the jurisdiction is. Sometimes it's just a neighborhood plan or a corridor plan. I actually did a project probably in the 90s in Louisville for the park system.

Anne Bogle (43:49)

Did you?

Ellen Heath (43:50)

Yeah. Got to know the wonderful system of Olmsted parks that's in Louisville. So I enjoyed the open space and park planning as well. And then the last several years of my career probably were more geared toward public engagement where just working with communities, as I said earlier, to kind of visualize their future, how they wanted things to look, what they wanted it to be, and then working with them for solutions of how to get there. So it was very fulfilling. And I really enjoyed the travel aspect of it, like I said. And you know, everybody thinks they're really unique and every community is unique, but every community also has things in common with others. So you can learn from other places.

Anne Bogle (44:37)

Good to keep in mind. Now I know that some of my favorite urban planning reads have bubbled up to the surface on the podcast and we've written about them on the blog over the years. We actually did a Patreon bonus episode a few years ago. But Ellen, what are a few books that you think maybe belong on my reading list or some of your favorites, whatever direction you want to take that.

Ellen Heath (44:58)

The most recent one I read is, and you may laugh, is the Power Broker by Robert Caro.

Anne Bogle (45:04)

Oh my gosh, you may laugh. I'm reading that right now.

Ellen Heath (45:07)

Oh really?

Anne Bogle (45:08)

It is. I've been meaning to read it for decades.

Ellen Heath (45:12)

Same. It's been on my shelf literally for decades.

Anne Bogle (45:15)

And it's over a thousand pages. The audiobook, you have to buy it in chunks because it's something like over 60 hours. I'm only at like 15% even though I've been reading for weeks.

Ellen Heath (45:24)

Well, like I said, I've had it for decades. And then there was a lot of attention last year because it was the 50th anniversary. I think of the book. Robert Caro, of course is famous for writing the series of books about Lyndon Johnson, President Johnson, but this was his first book and it is about the director of long time, like 50 year director of public works in New York City. And it is fascinating. I have a friend who's not an urban planner who read the book a couple of years ago and then just kept shaming me about why you haven't read it. So that kind of spurred me to do it. And I decided I'm just going to do a chapter a day. There are 50 chapters. So it took me about two months to read. And it's just fascinating. It's really about, I would say more than anything how he was able to amass the power that he had, which was absolutely incredible that no one could touch him. He and FDR had a. They didn't like each other. You know, FDR was the governor of New York before he became president. And so when he became president, he was trying to withhold funds from New York because of Moses. And it just wasn't working politically. This, to me, was the funniest thing in the book. FDR said to one of his staff people, can't the President of the United States have one personal vendetta? And the guy says, no, not him. You can't go against him. Anyway, he destroyed a lot of neighborhoods. Never asked anybody what they wanted. He just decided to. He knew best. And it's a very interesting tale of how development happened in the 20th century. Anyway, let's see what else I have. Oh, one that I really like, that I think you and a lot of people might enjoy is called on the Grid, is by Scott Huller.

Anne Bogle (47:24)

I don't know this one.

Ellen Heath (47:25)

The subtitle is called A Plot of Land, An Average Neighborhood and the Systems that Make Our World Work. And he is a reporter who lives, I believe, in Raleigh. And he lives in a neighborhood in Raleigh. And he just took his house and explored all of the different systems that come into or go out of his house and enable life in the 21st century. Like the trash collection and the electricity and water and wastewater, just how everything works. And I knew a lot of the stuff already, but I learned a lot. And it was like, where does your electricity come from and how does it get there? Where is it generated? What's the transmission all about? It was just very interesting. How do they. And I'd always wondered about this, how do they sort the recycling? It's fascinating. And he's a reporter, he's a writer, so it was very well written, easy to get through. So that's kind of general interest. And then the other one, I would say is called City by City Dispatches from the American Metropolis. And it's edited by Keith Gessen. And it is a series of 30 plus essays about all different cities around the United States and how the physical form of the city affects the daily lives of people who live there. And it's very writerly. I think a lot of the contributors are poets or other kind of writers. And it's a very, you know, a lot of urban planning writing, particularly sort of the new urbanism. You know, it's a lot of white males. And this book, City by City, is very diverse in terms of the contributors, so I think that's a good contribution to the oeuvre, if you will, of books that are adjacent to planning. Anyway.

Anne Bogle (49:34)

Well, that sounds fascinating. Thank you for the recommendation. All right, back to the. Let's see, Is it all fiction we've discussed? It is.

Ellen Heath (49:42)

Yeah, it is.

Anne Bogle (49:43)

Okay, so let's revisit the books you loved. They Were Clear by Karis Davies, the Safekeep by Yale VanderWouden and Mr. Loverman by Bernadine Evaristo. Not for your was hello Beautiful by Anne Napolitano. You don't mind an unlikable character normally, but in this one you thought you were so supposed to like her, and you just didn't. Also, you said something scandalous about being done with family dramas. You know I'm kidding. I love family dramas. But I. I hear you. You feel like you're reading a lot of books that are too similar for your liking.

Ellen Heath (50:16)

Yeah.

Anne Bogle (50:17)

Yeah. And that's important to notice. And then lately you've been reading the Women of Troy by Pat Barker and We Solve Murders by Richard Osmond, and both really worked for you. Okay. I have some recommendations for you. And I'm really keeping in mind that character and setting are the most important thing. And you love immersive stories that are also entertaining and have an interesting setting in which you might learn something. You think this may be why historical fiction really works for you, but these books don't have to be historical. I want to assure you. I heard you on the World War II.

Ellen Heath (50:53)

I'm not alone on that. I know.

Anne Bogle (50:54)

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Ellen Heath (52:57)

Thanks, no.

Anne Bogle (52:58)

He also is known to many readers as author of A Shepherd's Life, another interesting atmospheric book with a fascinating setting. But I want to talk about the Place of Tides because of its island nature and for setting. Gosh, superlatives are hard. And yet I find myself wanting to talk in superlatives, you can't do better. It doesn't get more interesting. It doesn't have to get more interesting. But this. This is about a magical summer that he spent on Norway's Vega Archipelago, which is way, way, way, way, way up north off the mainland. Very difficult to access. It sounds like a whole different world. I happen to know that you enjoyed Wild Dark shore by Charlotte McConaughey. You've enjoyed a lot of books set on islands like Clear. This setting feels almost otherworldly. These islands are sparsely populated, hardly anybody lives there, and he makes some kind of crack in the book where he says, like here I am on this whole strung out chain of islands where there are just a handful of stubborn old people keeping this almost ancient tradition alive. So Rebanks is a journalist and the way he tells the story. Many years ago he visited the Vega archipelago to do a profile and he told himself, if I am ever burnt out and cynical and just need an entirely different season of life, I should come back here. And not that long ago he found himself at such a place. And he made a plea to an old duck woman who lives on these islands, Can I come and learn your ways? And she said, yes. And so he goes to learn about the history of the region. And it's fading way of life for eons has been dedicated to harvesting the down of the eider duck. And World War II does feature into this story when the. When the Germans occupy the islands. There were just some interesting tidbits that were so fascinating, I was like, hey, family, where are you? Listen to this. This is wild. But I love this for you for its portrayal of a fascinating, fascinating way of life that I trust will be completely different from anything you've experienced in your own life. The way he paints word pictures of the setting is, I think, perfect for you. This book is charming in many ways, but it's charming in this, like, sobering, arresting, like, sit up, take notice, very alert kind of way. Not like a, oh, we're this cute little. It's not cute. It's not cute, but it's very. I think it's for you. How does that sound?

Ellen Heath (55:43)

Sounds great. Very interesting.

Anne Bogle (55:46)

That's the place of tides. I want to do a mystery. Can we do a mystery?

Ellen Heath (55:51)

Sure.

Anne Bogle (55:52)

Okay. This was from our fall book preview. I don't suppose you've read the Blue Hour by Paula Hawkins?

Ellen Heath (55:57)

No, I read something else by her.

Anne Bogle (55:59)

She wrote the Girl on the Train.

Ellen Heath (56:00)

Yeah, I read that.

Anne Bogle (56:01)

Yeah. Very well known. This is a different kind of work. I mean, I think this is a much more mature work. This has been out less than a year. It's a broody, thrilling kind of book that's set in the world of fine art. The characters are artists and gallery owners and the making of art and the meaning of that art and the origin of that art features very prominently. Most of this book takes place on an isolated Scottish island. And I've never read about a setting like this. This. This island isn't entirely an island. It is accessible to the mainland, but only for 12 hours a day because the tide comes in and it wipes out the road. And the tide goes out and you can access the island again. And so the people plan their meetings on the mainland. Their grocery runs their everything around when the tide will go in and out, because if you miss it and the road is flooded, you are not getting home till the next day. And the way that factors into the rhythms of the story is fascinating. And I just picture it. I think I already used these words, but just like, so dark and broody and foggy and almost mystical in my mind. And I really want Paula Hawkins to tell me, yeah, you're doing it right. But I think I'm doing it right. So this is about a reclusive artist named Vanessa who lives on the island alone with one friend, local friend, who cares for her. And we find out that to everyone's shock, Vanessa has bequeathed her art collection to a foundation. She was very well known. Like, they talk about her exhibition at the Tate, for example, like in the story that plays a role in the plot. We know that Grace has always been overprotective of her friend and she's not happy when the curators want to come to the island and invade their home to take background notes and sketchbooks after it turns out that a human bone was found in one of the artist's pieces. And some are afraid that her ex husband who went missing under weird circumstances a long time ago and now it turns out a human bone is being used in her art. Like, people's minds are going sinister places real fast. There is so much tension and misdirection in this story. These are. I don't know that the characters are actively unlikable, but they're definitely not warm and fuzzy. You're not meant to love them, but you are meant to find them interesting. But it's just got this threatening vibe. Very cool setting with the tides and an island that's not an island. And Du Maurier and Shirley Jackson and definitely Patricia Highsmith. Some of those are name checked in the story, that is the mood. You don't know who to trust. You don't know what is up with this art, and you don't really know where Paula Hawkins is going with it, but I think you might trust her to find out. How does that sound?

Ellen Heath (58:55)

Sounds great.

Anne Bogle (58:56)

Okay, I'm glad to hear it. There's a couple different places we could go. First, I have to tell you, if you haven't read Whalefall by Elizabeth o', Connor, we've already talked about it on the podcast. But it's a wonderful companion to clarify. Clear. If you liked one, I would really expect the other to be Your cup of tea. Have you read Deacon, King Kong, Ellen?

Ellen Heath (59:18)

Oh, that was my favorite book of that year.

Anne Bogle (59:20)

Okay, well, I was thinking, I know you're going to Brooklyn. You've got the fun Brooklyn setting. And I liked the sense of humor in it.

Ellen Heath (59:28)

Same. Same here. He's another person that James McBride. He has such affection for his characters, and it just comes through.

Anne Bogle (59:36)

He really does. I'm glad that worked for you. What about Sarah Waters?

Ellen Heath (59:41)

Is that Fingersmith? Mm, I own it, but I haven't read it.

Anne Bogle (59:45)

Ooh. Okay, we're gonna make that your final book now. I have to tell you, Elise Brand's show was just on the podcast, readers. This was episode 479 in May. She talked about balancing backlist with new and shiny releases that are always fighting for her attention. And she talked about how much she loved Fingersmith. And these conversations on the podcast influenced my reading life so much afterwards, I thought, I want to reread Fingersmith. So I picked it up and I started reading and I was like, I don't remember this. I don't remember that I had not read this book because this book was so shocking. I mean, I don't. I don't want your expectations to get, you know, to unreasonably high places, but I was so stunned at some of the twists and turns in here. I had not read this book before. Now I have to figure out which Sarah Waters book I have read. It might have been the paying guess, but I do know next I'm going to read Tipping the Velvet. So, readers, if you have thoughts on that, tell me in the comments at what should I read next podcast dot com. But as you were, especially describing the safe keep, but also describing any book where character and setting are most important. Although it's not fair to say plot isn't important here. Plot is definitely important here. Oh, this is such a fun story. It takes a lot of pages to spool out. It's like 580 something, but it has a good sense of place, good character development. And it's primarily about two women who. And I'm definitely thinking about your description of the safekeep. Both live entirely in their own worlds, and they're both. I mean, one is very sheltered. Her parents have died. She's been kept by her uncle, very secluded, raised as a gentlewoman. Her entire world is serving as his secretary. She never leaves his manor house. And the other was raised among thieves in London. This is Victorian. It feels very Dickensian. And it is a queer heist historical story. I think the period details, the way you get to know the two characters. And also you talked about how in the Safekeep every once in a while. Well, actually, I think you said once there's a big surprise that changes your perspective on everything. Like what is even going on? Why is this happening? Who is this person really? I think you enjoyed that in the Safekeep and that makes Fingersmith rise immediately to mind. And you've said that you don't mind an unlikable character. I don't know if unlikable is right exactly, but these are complex characters faced with complicated realities that they are trying to navigate. I'm not sure how much I've really painted a picture of this story for you, but how does it sound?

Ellen Heath (62:33)

It does sound good.

Anne Bogle (62:34)

I can see why it's on your shelf. Ellen. Once again, thank you for the book recs and readers, we'll put those titles in show notes, but real quick. Those were the Power Broker on the Grid and City by City. And Ellen, for your books we talked about the Place of Tides by James Rebanks, the Blue Hour by Paula Hawkins, and Fingersmith by Sarah Waters. Of those titles, what do you think you might read next? I think Fingersmith, well, it's already on your Kindle, right?

Ellen Heath (63:07)

Place of Tides is close behind it.

Anne Bogle (63:10)

It is out in June, so it'll be ready for you when you're ready for it.

Ellen Heath (63:13)

Good.

Anne Bogle (63:14)

All right, Ellen, thank you so much for a lovely conversation.

Ellen Heath (63:17)

Thank you. I enjoyed it.

Anne Bogle (63:23)

Hey readers, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Ellen today and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Ellen on Goodreads and find the full list of titles we talked about today. We have those links at what Should I Read next podcast.com Stay in the loop with All Things Happen Happening at what Should I Read Next HQ by joining our newsletter list Every Tuesday morning we send out notes about our new episode and we send you more info from HQ with news and exciting happenings you will want to know about. Sign up at what Should I Read next podcast.com newsletter Follow our show in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, Pocket Casts, whatever your favorite podcast player is we're on there and find us on Instagram at what Should I Read Next? We always love to see what you are reading lately, so tag us when you share. Thanks to the people who make the show happen. What Should I Read Next Is created each week by Will Bogle, Holly Wilkachevsky and Studio D Podcast Production readers. That's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And as Reiner Maria Rilke said, ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading. Happy reading, everyone.