Ep 501: Crafting a personal curriculum for a lifelong learner

Summary

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What Should I Read Next?

Episode 501: Crafting a Personal Curriculum for a Lifelong Learner
Host: Anne Bogel
Guest: Amy St. Amand
Date: November 4, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Anne Bogel sits down with Amy St. Amand, a Rhode Island-based clinical pharmacist and dedicated lifelong learner, to explore the art of crafting a personal reading curriculum. Inspired by a viral “personal curriculum” trend on social media, Amy seeks guidance on harnessing her intellectual curiosity—transforming an overwhelming amount of interests into a purposeful, organized learning journey. Together, Anne and Amy unpack the philosophy behind lifelong learning, discuss Amy’s reading loves and goals, brainstorm new topics to explore, and share practical strategies for making self-directed education joyful, intentional, and sustainable.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Meet Amy—A Profile in Curiosity

• Timestamp [05:29-07:45]

  • Amy shares her background: born and raised in Rhode Island, a clinical pharmacist working in primary care, teacher, and indoor cycling instructor.
  • She’s a self-described “Type A overachiever,” meticulous by nature, with a love for organized lists and deep explorations into varied topics.
  • Reading is a multi-generational love in her family, now shared with her young niece.

  “I just want to know everything.” – Amy St. Amand [11:58]

2. The ‘Personal Curriculum’ Movement

• Timestamp [10:55-12:14]

  • Amy describes the social media trend (via creator “Parmesan Princess”) where individuals design their own learning “courses” based on curiosity.
  • The appeal: freedom to choose, dive deep, and synthesize interests traditionally outside the classroom.
  • Her challenge: narrowing endless options to a manageable, meaningful syllabus.

  “I’ve never been so thoroughly influenced by a trend in my life.” – Amy [11:23]

  • Anne empathizes with the delight and overwhelm of boundless curiosity:

  “Intellectual curiosity leads to a good deal of overwhelm, because when everything sounds interesting…” – Anne Bogel [12:16]

3. Amy’s Reading Life—Loves and Preferred Formats

• Timestamp [08:28-10:14]
  • Amy is an avid audiobook listener but enjoys physical and e-reading, multitasking on walks or while exercising.
  • Keeps a highly organized TBR (to-be-read) list but allows room for spontaneous “top of the stack” picks.
  • Treasures sharing book trips and recommendations with her 10-year-old niece.

4. Books Amy Loves & Why

• Timestamp [19:36-26:37]

  • Here One Moment by Liane Moriarty
    Loved for shifting perspectives, community-building, and learning about the actuary profession.
  • My Friends by Fredrik Backman
    Backman is an “all-time favorite” for Amy; valued for emotional depth and humor.
  • Everything Is Tuberculosis by John Green
    Stands out for its blend of personal story, public health, and compelling deep-dive nonfiction.
  • Anne draws connections between Amy’s picks: a love for narrative nonfiction, micro-histories, and vibrant storytelling.

• A Miss:

  • Leave the World Behind by Rumaan Alam
    Didn’t enjoy the stream-of-consciousness style or gratuitous detail.

5. Defining and Refining a Personal Curriculum

• Timestamp [27:54-41:41]

  • Amy explains her method: usually picks a topic and searches for resources, but is open to letting a compelling book guide the direction.
  • Anne encourages flexibility (e.g., monthly themes, cross-format assignments, and “outputs” like discussions or projects).
  • Amy shares recent “modules” she’s completed:
    • Building a Better Vocabulary: Used The Great Courses and the Merriam-Webster app for daily practice.
    • Psychology of Cults: Another Great Courses series.
    • Fleetwood Mac: Sparked by cycling class playlists, eager to explore band history and influence.
  • Amy relishes both input (books, courses) and output (using new words, engaging in conversations, sharing what she’s learned).

  “There’s no end date. There’s no finishing… you can take elements and implement going forward.” – Amy [38:59]

6. Topics Amy Wants to Explore Next

• Timestamp [37:07-39:01]
  • Food Science & International Cuisine
  • Greek Mythology (retellings, originals, deeper backstory)
  • How Music Affects the Brain (Oliver Sacks, Daniel Levitin)
  • American Sign Language (ASL)
  • Anne observes a connecting thread: many of Amy’s interests are about storytelling, meaning-making, and modes of human connection.

7. Recommended Resources & Approaches for Each Topic

• Timestamp [42:47-61:15]

  Food Science & Cooking

  • Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat by Samin Nosrat (book & Netflix series)
  • Science and Cooking: Physics Meets Food by Michael Brenner et al
  • National Dish by Anya von Bremzen (examines food, culture, and national identity)
  • On Food and Cooking by Harold McGee

  “She mostly wants to tell you how it works and to consider your relationship with your ingredients...” – Anne [45:14]

  Fleetwood Mac & The Science of Music

  • Fleetwood Mac: All the Songs (comprehensive song-by-song history)
  • Musicophilia by Oliver Sacks
  • This is Your Brain on Music by Daniel Levitin
  • This Is What It Sounds Like by Susan Rogers and Ogi Ogas (on musical taste)
  • How to Write One Song by Jeff Tweedy (creative process)

  American Sign Language (ASL) & Deaf Culture

  • Great Courses: American Sign Language for Everyone
  • Seeing Voices by Oliver Sacks (neurology and culture of deafness)
  • Everyone Here Spoke Sign Language by Nora Ellen Groce (Martha’s Vineyard deaf community)
  • True Biz by Sara Novic (novel set in a school for the deaf)

  Greek Mythology

  • The Odyssey, trans. Emily Wilson (audio by Claire Danes)
  • Hera by Jennifer Saint and works by Madeline Miller, Natalie Haynes, Claire Heywood (modern retellings)
  • Home Fire by Kamila Shamsie (modern Antigone)
  • This Tender Land by William Kent Krueger (modern Odyssey reimagining)
  • Lecture series & backgrounders for deeper context

8. Designing and Sustaining a Joyful Curriculum

• Anne champions “assignments” and creative outputs as a way to cement learning—anyone can structure their personal curriculum however they wish:

  • Combine reading with documentaries, journaling, cooking, museum visits, or creative projects.
  • Allow the curriculum to branch, circle back, or expand into new passions.

  “The ones I love…combine a variety of perspectives, wide variety of formats, and also don’t just focus on input… but also the assignments we make for ourselves to put this new knowledge to work.” – Anne [34:14]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Curiosity:

  “As an intellectually curious person… I just want to know everything.” – Amy [11:58]

• On Overwhelm:

  “Intellectual curiosity leads to a good deal of overwhelm, because when everything sounds interesting…” – Anne [12:16]

• On Personal Output:

  “Not only taking information in, but also… an element of utilizing and contextualizing the information… so we’re not just absorbing, but putting that out there as well.” – Amy [35:30]

• On the Structure of Learning:

  “There’s no end date. There’s no finishing this per se… as long as you’re enjoying it, you can take elements and implement going forward.” – Amy [38:59]

• On the Joy of Deep Dives:

  “Whenever I find an area of interest… I do end up doing a deep delve in—whether that’s a hobby or with cooking…” – Amy [43:37]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic / Segment | |------------|---------------------------------------------------------------| | 05:29 | Amy’s story & background | | 10:55 | Discovery of the personal curriculum trend | | 19:36 | Amy’s three book loves (and one not-for-her) | | 27:54 | How Amy approaches self-education and curriculum design | | 38:59 | The freedom and longevity of personal curricula | | 41:00 | Anne explores the shared thread of Amy’s topics | | 42:47 | Food science: Starting points and recommendations | | 49:56 | Applying outputs: Cooking, projects, and “assignments” | | 50:32 | Music & the brain: Recommendations for narrative nonfiction | | 53:55 | ASL, deaf culture, and more immersive learning | | 57:34 | Greek mythology: Retellings, literary crossovers, resources | | 61:43 | Reflections, next steps, and the joy of cross-disciplinary study|

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Summary & Takeaways

The episode is a celebration of the lifelong learner’s spirit—embracing the delights and dilemmas of having “too many interests” and making space for structured, personalized exploration. Anne and Amy co-create booklists, multimedia resources, and practical strategies for building a personal curriculum that is rich, flexible, and truly one-of-a-kind. Whether listeners want to understand food science, music’s effect on the brain, ASL, or Greek myth, they’re encouraged to give themselves permission to follow the joy of curiosity, sketch out syllabi, and let one topic serendipitously lead to the next.

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For a complete list of resources and ways to participate, visit: whatshouldireadnextpodcast.com

Transcript

[Anne Bogel]

Intellectual curiosity leads to a good deal of overwhelm because when everything sounds interesting.

[Lee Kramer]

You have a lot more options than.

[Anne Bogel]

Someone who only wants to read about pharmacology. Let's say under the circumstances.

[Amy St. Amand]

Sure.

And that's something I don't want to read about.

[Lee Kramer]

I have zero recommendations for you, so that that is going to work out really well for both of us.

[Amy St. Amand]

Perfect.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

Hey readers, I'm Anne Bogle and this is what should I read next? Welcome to the show that's dedicated to answering the question that plagues every reader. What should I read next? We don't get bossy on this show. What we will do here is give you the information you need to choose your next read. Every week we'll talk all things books and reading and do a little literary matchmaking with one guest. Readers, if you're a member of our Modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club, today's topic may sound familiar in a really fun way. Today we're exploring the idea of a personal curriculum, something we touched on in our recent book club class called A Close look at Great Books, when our community manager, Ginger Horton, shared more about her ongoing grad school experience focused on a great books curriculum and how you can apply some of those great books ideas to your own reading life in ways that are either formal or informal, depending on what looking for. If this sounds like good nerdy fun to you, I want you to know this is the kind of thing we do in book club all the time. Head over to modernmrsdarcy.comclub to see what's going on over there right now and if you might want to join us in book club, that's modernmrsdarcy.com club. Readers, there's no reason to overpay for.

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[Anne Bogel]

From Rhode island where she works as.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

A primary care clinical pharmacist. Amy told us in her submission that she sent in to what should I read next podcast.com guest that because she's a person who wants to know a little bit about a whole lot of things, she is working to build this personal curriculum and she wanted to know if I could perhaps help her develop.

[Anne Bogel]

And refine her topics of interest.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

I couldn't wait to hear more about Amy's personal learning plan that she wanted.

[Anne Bogel]

To design for herself, and I was.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

So honored and excited to be a part of it. Today we talk a little more about Amy's why, as well as the origin and progress of her planning so far, and then I'll recommend a whole lot of mostly nonfiction books that will help her delve deeper into her chosen topics. As promised, this is good nerdy fun.

[Anne Bogel]

Let's get to it. Amy, welcome to the show.

[Amy St. Amand]

Thank you Anne so much.

I am really excited to be here and want to thank you for the invitation.

[Anne Bogel]

Oh my goodness. I'm so excited to chat and your.

[Lee Kramer]

Submission hit our inboxes here at what Should I Read Next HQ at a.

[Anne Bogel]

Really serendipitous moment and I'm excited to dive into the topic you've brought today.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

But first, would you start just by telling us a little bit about yourself?

[Anne Bogel]

We want to give our readers a glimpse of who you are.

[Amy St. Amand]

Absolutely.

So I am born and raised in the small estate Rhode island and if you talk to any Rhode Islanders, a.

Lot of us choose to stay local in part because we sort of view.

A 20 minute drive as a road trip where you need to pack a lunch. So I went to the University of.

Rhode island and earned my PharmD or Doctorate of Pharmacy degree there and then did two years of residency to become what's called an ambulatory care pharmacist.

So on a day to day basis.

I work with primary care teams to help them with their patients and do medication management for a few different conditions. Anything from diabetes to high blood pressure to smoking cessation just to kind of name a few.

And it's something that I really love.

And enjoy and find fulfilling. And outside of that I also teach at a medication technician program, so that's where we help CNAs become certified to pass medications at assisted livings and nursing homes.

And I'm also an indoor cycling instructor.

I've been doing that since college and I have a wonderful partner, Jason. And some of our hobbies that we enjoy doing together include building Lego kits.

And we like to watch competition re.

Holiday shows and we hang out with our cats, pickles and donut.

I'm also really close with my sisters.

And we like to do trivia nights together. And lately we've been on a mission to find the best local coffee shops and cafes and ice cream parlors around the state.

So we've kind of enjoyed being tourists.

In our own state this past year.

[Anne Bogel]

Oh, that sounds amazing.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

Okay.

[Anne Bogel]

I'd love to get you on the.

[Lee Kramer]

Record as saying what you said in your submission about, as you might imagine, you have a typing type A personality, and that shines through in your reading.

[Amy St. Amand]

Yeah, well, I think that kind of goes hand in hand with the profession. You know, we have to be very.

Meticulous and cautious and be thinking about.

A balance of risks and benefits. But yeah, I've been type A since. Since I can remember. Always sort of an overachiever in a lot of ways.

[Anne Bogel]

And I'm very curious about how that does shine through in your reading life.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

Would you start by telling me about that?

[Anne Bogel]

What is, what does reading mean to you? What is that looking like for you right now?

[Amy St. Amand]

Yeah, well, I've always loved reading for as long as I can remember. And I remember my sister actually used to make jokes when we were younger that she was an average child and didn't read a book a day the way that I did. I remember, like, being so excited for.

Library trips and when the Scholastic Book Fair came into school. And then I had, of course, a lot of required reading in high school and college. So it was really after graduation that I was able to delve back into my love of reading for fun.

And these days, a lot of my.

Reading comes in the form of audiobooks because I actually take in information really well that way.

But also it allows me to multitask.

While I'm reading, so I can be driving in the car or on a walk or cooking dinner and be reading along the way. I do, of course, still love sort of having a physical book in hand as well, and that reading experience. And more recently, I've actually started to enjoy using the Kindle app on my iPad, especially when traveling, just because it's so convenient.

And one hack is I have a Peloton bike as well.

And you're actually able to pull up the Kindle app on the Peloton.

So I'll be sitting there pedaling and getting some exercise in while reading my ebook as well. But in terms of the, you know, type A, I do definitely keep a.

Very organized TBR and try to stick to it.

But then I do get excited when.

Certain new releases come out. And so sometimes there are books that.

Kind of jump right to the top of that list.

But one of my absolute favorite things in my reading life right now is that my 10 year old niece is she now loves reading just as much.

As I did when I was her age. And so she and I are doing.

Library trips together now and helping each other pick out our next reads.

I always tell her to help me.

Find the book with the prettiest cover.

On it and then we go to.

The kids section afterwards and she gets to wander around and find what she's interested in reading.

And so it's just been really, really.

Fun to be able to share that.

Love of reading with the next generation.

[Anne Bogel]

Oh, that sounds amazing.

[Amy St. Amand]

Yeah.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

Amy, what brings you to the show today?

[Amy St. Amand]

The reason I wanted to talk with you today, Anne, was to sort of.

Cultivate some resources actually, because I've recently.

Come across a trend on social media called a personal curriculum. And this idea comes from a creator. I found her on TikTok. Her name's Elizabeth Jean or she goes by Parmesan. Princess is her handle.

And I've just never been so thoroughly.

Influenced by a trend in my life. So the idea behind it is that you get to create your own course or your own curriculum for yourself based off of things that you are interested in. And it's been really incredible to see all of the ideas that people come up with, all of these just fun or deep and interesting topics that people want to delve into more. And so I'm a very curious and nosy person, so I just want to know everything.

So I am having a little bit.

Of a hard time kind of narrowing down the next couple of things to delve into. So I would really love your help with kind of narrowing that down and coming up with different books and resources that can help with that.

[Lee Kramer]

Well, I appreciate you bringing the request to the show and also I feel.

[Anne Bogel]

Like I should tell you that as someone who shares your intellectual curiosity, I am very aware of like how delightful it is to be a person who finds so many things interesting. And also something that I was shocked and dismayed and also went, oh, of course, when I was writing, don't overthink it was that intellectual curiosity leads to a good deal of overwhelm. Because when everything sounds interesting.

[Amy St. Amand]

Yes.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

Yeah.

[Lee Kramer]

You have a lot more options than.

[Anne Bogel]

Someone who only wants to read about pharmacology, let's say under the circumstances.

[Amy St. Amand]

Sure.

And that's something I don't want to read about.

[Lee Kramer]

I have zero recommendations for you. So that that is going to work out really well for both of us.

[Amy St. Amand]

Perfect.

[Lee Kramer]

I was saying the timing was really great.

[Anne Bogel]

Our modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club community manager Ginger Horton, who's been on the podcast recently, is the person on our team who's most into TikTok. Y'. All. I'm not on TikTok.

[Lee Kramer]

I'm not on Instagram these days. I know nothing except what Ginger brings.

[Anne Bogel]

Me or my kids occasionally. But she was talking about the personal curriculum and how it was everything she loved with just enough structure to feel a little bit different. And then the day after, she was enlightening me about what was happening on.

[Lee Kramer]

TikTok that I'd be interested in.

[Anne Bogel]

Your submission came in. So I'm really excited to talk today about shaping your personal curriculum. Amy, I love how you've discovered this idea and thought, yes, I can make this work for my reading life, but.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

How can I help today?

[Anne Bogel]

Are we seeking to look at all the options and maybe pull it back into a manageable next steps range? I'm trying to imagine what you might have in mind. I'd love to hear.

[Amy St. Amand]

Yeah, well, that's.

That's the trouble, isn't it?

It's.

It's that there's so many things that are interesting. And I. I've, you know, had some ideas of where I want to take.

This next, but I am always open.

To inspiration of other IDE resources that.

You think I might just find interesting.

As an intellectually curious person, what I.

Can say is that in the past, when I've kind of encountered similar experiences in my reading life, it has often taken the form of a narrative nonfiction book. So I think of books that I've read and really enjoyed in that vein. Things like the Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks, the Boys in the Boat, and.

Other, like, micro histories.

So Mary Roach is an author who writes a lot of those styles of micro histories where it's a really deep.

Dive into a very specific topic. And I think that's what I'm looking.

For is I want to know the detail. I want to know the nitty gritty on these very particular subjects. So less so an overview of a topic and more of a deep dive.

[Anne Bogel]

Because the fun is in the details.

[Amy St. Amand]

Yeah. Okay.

[Anne Bogel]

I think you said in your submission you want to know a little bit about a lot of things. Yes, but not just the big picture.

[Amy St. Amand]

Exactly, exactly.

That's something that both my partner and.

I pride ourselves on, is being able.

To kind of speak to, you know.

A mixed crowd about different topics and.

Have at least a little nugget of something to say about really anything that may come up.

So it's kind of a Fun way.

Of thinking about that.

[Anne Bogel]

Oh, that sounds super fun. Amy, I know you came today with a list of topics you know you're interested in, and you can't read about all of them at once. So I'm wondering how much is deciding. Actually, this is the topic I'm interested in most right now, and I wonder.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

If how much is.

[Anne Bogel]

When you find the specific book, you'll know it and finding that individual resource will determine your topic.

[Amy St. Amand]

Yeah, that's a really good question.

I think the way that I've been.

Approaching it mentally is.

Has been topic and then finding resources. But I could very easily see how.

If I found something that, like a particular book that really called to me.

And sounded interesting, how that could sort.

Of shape a topic to look at as well. So I think it could really go either way. But the initial what you said of a topic and then finding resources is sort of how I've been approaching it.

[Anne Bogel]

I'm so excited to get into this. And also, as we're talking about this today, we're drawing inspiration. Our launching off point is definitely this TikTok trend, but we are not seeking to assess the details of what's happening on TikTok. We are taking this idea of building a learning plan you design for yourself and running with it from here. Are you good with that, Amy?

[Amy St. Amand]

Yes. Okay.

[Anne Bogel]

Okay. Excellent. I think what we want to do today is we set the stage, have some idea of what we're going to leave you with at the end, which is basically next steps, and hopefully some enthusiasm for more specific topics and perhaps even individual resources than you're feeling right now. And I think a good way to hear more about what's going to work for you is to hear about what you've loved and not in the past. I know you can't with books today. Can we talk about those now?

[Amy St. Amand]

Absolutely.

[Anne Bogel]

Readers.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

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[Anne Bogel]

What we often do around here and if you could tell me, let's say three books you love and one you don't to get the beginnings of a picture of what you enjoy as a reader. What did you bring today?

[Amy St. Amand]

Great. So the first book that I brought that I loved recently was Here One.

Moment by Leon Moriarty and I really enjoyed this book.

I think part of the reason I enjoyed it so much was the shifting perspectives and getting a glimpse into each of the characters mindset and their lives. But for those of you who have not read it, sort of the background or the synopsis of the story is.

That there's a whole group of individuals.

Who are on a flight together and mid flight an older woman stands up and she starts to walk down the aisle, stopping at each individual person and predicting when and how they are going to die.

And so as you can imagine that causes a lot of disarray and discussion.

Amongst all of the passengers on this airplane and and then the story sort of evolves after the airplane to the first initial couple of predictions coming true and sort of people's reactions to that. So it's a really interesting premise. I like that. It's very rooted in one moment in time on the airplane and then it sort of follows the aftershocks after that.

And yeah, I really liked the way.

That it sort of ended up creating community among the members on the plane as well. So I really enjoyed reading that one. It was a fun reading experience.

[Anne Bogel]

And I don't want to give any spoilers here, but something you and I talked about before we hit record is how this woman's profession plays significantly into the novel. And as a reader, I really enjoyed learning more about that profession. And I'm wondering if that real world, concrete field explored in depth was some of the appeal for you with this story.

[Amy St. Amand]

I did enjoy that. So the main character, the woman who.

Stands up on the plane is also an actuary in her real life. So it kind of has this tie in of, you know, in terms of insurance and those sorts of predictions of.

Life, but then her having obviously a.

Much more specific and not based off of predictive models type of prediction.

So that was really interesting. And this is a little bit off.

Topic, but I also recently read a book called the Love Elixir of Augusta.

Stern and that is actually a book about a pharmacist.

And yeah, I know. I think I read it after I. Or maybe I forgot about it before I submitted it, but that was a.

Really fun novel as well.

There was like a little bit of.

Magical realism in with it and it explored not only sort of the realistic sides of pharmacy, but she also had an aunt who is more into herbalism and sort of that vein. So it was really an interesting and fun read for me.

[Anne Bogel]

I'm glad you found that one or that it found you.

[Amy St. Amand]

Yeah, exactly.

[Anne Bogel]

Amy, what's the next book you love?

[Amy St. Amand]

The second book that I brought was.

My Friends by Fredrik Backman and I am just a huge fan of this author. He's probably my favorite author of all.

Time and I will read anything that he publishes.

But this is his most recent release and it follows in the modern times. There's a young girl who's a teenager who has a real connection to this art, this painting, and she actually ends up talking to the artist in sort of a very roundabout way. And then the other component of the story is the background of the artist and his group of friends from several years ago. And. And what I love about Fredrik Backman's writing is that it is Simultaneously heartbreaking and funny, and you just feel like these people, these characters are real, like you are in their lives, and you.

Feel part of it.

And I've found that to be the case for all of the books that I've read by him. But this was definitely a new favorite for me.

[Anne Bogel]

I'm so glad you feel that way.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

Amy. What's the third book you love?

[Amy St. Amand]

This is probably more in the vein of what I'm looking for with the personal curriculum trend. This book was Everything Is Tuberculosis by John Green. And so a lot of people are familiar with John Green from his young adult reading and fiction writing, but this particular book was nonfiction. And he has been something I didn't know about, but he has been a real advocate for education and advocacy for tuberculosis worldwide as it continues to be such a terrible disease, killing hundreds of thousands of people every year. And so this, for me, as a pharmacist, really tied in with the public health component. And I think he does it in such a compelling way because he's really.

Following the story of Henry, and.

And one of the reasons he had such a kind of personal connection to Henry is that John's own son is named Henry, and he thought that the Henry he was talking with who has tuberculosis was the same age as him, but it was actually because he was so malnourished because of the tuberculosis, and he was quite a few years older. So it's following his story, but also talking about all of the historical elements of tuberculosis and how it has affected us culturally and historically.

And so it was really, really fascinating.

To see how all of those things tied together. And that's where the name Everything is tuberculosis comes from.

[Anne Bogel]

Okay, and I hear you on the narrative nonfiction being perhaps more in the vein of what you're looking for for your personal curriculum.

[Amy St. Amand]

Yes.

[Anne Bogel]

Amy, tell me about a book that did not work for you, and I'd love to hear why not your cup of tea. Was the timing wrong, a topic that felt uncomfortable?

[Amy St. Amand]

Yeah.

So the book that I put as.

One that wasn't right for me was Leave the World behind by Ruman Alam. And I've read this a while ago now, so the particulars are a little bit hard to remember. But what I do recall was that it was very stream of consciousness, and there were just some kind of gratuitous descriptions of things that felt a bit unnecessary.

And it wasn't a style of writing that I particularly enjoyed.

[Anne Bogel]

Okay, so I'm noticing that, I mean, as readers, we can enjoy a broad variety of books that three individual Selections cannot encompass. But here, one moment, my friends. Everything is tuberculosis feel very expansive and open.

[Amy St. Amand]

Yes.

And I maybe selected a few things.

From different styles and different genres intentionally, because my reading life definitely, I read.

So many different styles of things. And like I mentioned before, between being curious and nosy, I just want to.

Really kind of know and enjoy all sorts of genres.

There's definitely a hard to sort of.

Pin down one style or one theme I would like, per se, something challenging.

For me because I want to read it all. And there's only so many things you can read.

[Lee Kramer]

Oh, that's the laugh of recognition you're hearing right there.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

I hear you.

[Anne Bogel]

And I believe as you explore topics in your personal curriculum, there could certainly be novels that could illuminate these themes. And also I hear that you're anticipating spending more time in narrative nonfiction.

[Amy St. Amand]

Yes.

[Lee Kramer]

Okay.

[Anne Bogel]

Can we move on to your personal curriculum?

[Amy St. Amand]

Sure.

[Anne Bogel]

So this is a learning plan you designed for yourself to explore topics, build skills, and deepen knowledge. That's how you described it in your submission.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

Do you want to tell me about.

[Anne Bogel]

Some themes you're considering? Does that feel like a good place to start?

[Amy St. Amand]

Yeah, I mean, I could even talk a little bit about a couple of the things that I've already explored.

If that would be a helpful jumping off point too, I'd love that.

[Anne Bogel]

Let's start there.

[Amy St. Amand]

Okay. Yeah.

So this past month in September, my focus was on building a better vocabulary.

And people have been joking with me.

You already have a very strong vocabulary.

But I'm like, well, there's always more to learn. And so I did that by taking a great courses class. That's something that I have access to for free from my library system. And so the, the name of the course was Building a Better Vocabulary, and there were 30 something lectures, and all of them kind of took a deep dive into maybe about eight to ten vocabulary words each. And it was all about learning the history behind the word and the etymology and the morphology and really, really fun and fascinating. And then to kind of keep up.

With that, I have also been.

I downloaded the Merriam Webster app on my phone and there's a word of the day.

So I've been, you know, writing that.

Down in my journal and trying to utilize that word throughout the day or, you know, at least once, once in.

A sentence, here and there.

So that's been fun.

And I. I've actually seen some of.

These words come up in my reading.

Which has been really funny as well.

Or while I'm listening to podcasts and.

Somebody will Throw out the word mercurial, and I'll be like, oh, that was one of the words I studied. And now I have a deeper understanding.

Of it or, you know, deeper connection to it. So that has been really fun. And then this month, I started on a different course also from the great.

Courses called Warping Reality Inside the Psychology of Cults. And it is really just fascinating to.

Learn more about the psychological principles behind what, you know, maybe makes someone choose to enter a cult. Obviously, they're not. Not thinking at the time that they are entering a cult. And then also they get very deep into the leaving part, the survival part afterwards.

So it's been very fascinating. So those are a couple of areas that I've already taken a deeper dive into.

And I am looking to figure out.

Where I want to take this next.

And also, I am so excited to start on Fleetwood Mac. So I had never really, like, listened to their music all that much prior to a couple of years ago.

And my entry point for Fleetwood Mac really was on Monday nights for my spin classes, my indoor cycling classes, I.

Will often do an artist series, and I'll pick an artist, a band, and.

Do a best of playlist for that night.

And a couple of years ago, I did a Fleetwood Mac playlist and fell in love. And I just really enjoy their music. And I know that there is a lot of personal dynamics within.

Like, I'm vaguely aware of some of.

The personal dynamics within the band, and.

I really want to know more. So that's kind of where the personal curriculum of learning more about Fleetwood Mac comes from. So if you have resources or books.

Suggested for that, I would would love to know more.

[Anne Bogel]

I mean, there's so many. You could go old. You could go very new. Like, there was just a new book in that series called all the Songs that Breaks down the Entire Earth from an Artist or a Group. And the new book in that series from two French authors just came out this year about Fleetwood Mac, and they have so many songs. This book is like 600 pages. But if the story Behind Everybody Song appeals to you, that book is called Fleetwood all the Songs. It's the latest in an ongoing series. And maybe that sounds fun.

[Amy St. Amand]

That does sound like a lot of fun.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

And you also mentioned in your submission.

[Anne Bogel]

You were looking at rereading Daisy Jones.

[Amy St. Amand]

Yes.

[Anne Bogel]

And, you know, there's all kinds of.

[Lee Kramer]

Ways you could approach this.

[Anne Bogel]

There are histories. There are histories on the individual artists in the group. There's stories about the rise and tumultuous dynamics in the band. There's Histories about the seventies where Fleetwood Mac features, but isn't the actual subject. There's been a lot of conversation about the continuing legacy of some of the living artists in Fleetwood Mac and how they continue to influence songwriters that came after and are still working, beginning to work today, and how influential, say, Stevie continues to be.

[Amy St. Amand]

Agreed.

[Anne Bogel]

Yeah.

[Amy St. Amand]

I was interested in rereading and potentially.

Rewatching Daisy Jones and the Six because when I first read that audiobook, I did not realize that the influence was Fleetwood Mac.

I just sort of enjoyed it for.

The story that it was.

And then later, when that was something.

That came across, my awareness that was.

Also kind of a jumping point for.

My interest in Fleetwood Mac as well. Just knowing that there are sort of.

Those deeper interpersonal relationships and drama that is within the band that I want.

To know more about.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

Yes.

[Anne Bogel]

And I'm so glad you mentioned about the multimedia, multiple format potential here. So people, readers, you, Amy, you all can do whatever you want with your personal curriculum. The way some readers are setting this up is here's some books I've been meaning to read. This is my curriculum meaning to read. Some people are choosing a theme for.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

The month, a theme for the season.

[Anne Bogel]

You can read one book, you can read 10. My favorites. And the ones I love to hear about are the ones that combine a variety of perspectives, a wide variety of formats, and also that don't just focus on the input, like the things we're taking in and soaking up and learning, but also the assignments we make for ourselves to put this new knowledge to work. Even if that's just. Amy, if you and I were to discuss for 20 minutes the Fleetwood Mac bio you read or what you noticed in Daisy Jones, like, that would count as output. But just writing notes in your journal, completing a project, baking a recipe, running an experiment, going to a museum, you know, seeing in person a different facet of what you're exploring. Those are the ones that I think sound really cool. So, Amy, you have lots of options here, I think, maybe depending on how much time you have in a season, on how much a certain topic compels you to keep finding out more.

[Amy St. Amand]

Right, right.

And I also saw some discourse about exactly what you're saying about, you know.

Not only taking information in, but also there being some kind of output, even if that's just a conversation with somebody about the things that you are learning or, you know, with the vocabulary, utilizing.

That word of the day and trying to rope it into your conversations so.

That there's an element of also utilizing and contextualizing the information that you've taken in. So we're not just absorbing, but we're also, you know, putting that out there as well. Yeah.

And it's been, it's been so fun to look at, like, everything that people have come up with, whether it's. I saw somebody who saw on the journey to make the perfect chocolate chip cookie and look through all of the recipes.

That's amazing.

How fun is that?

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

So fun. But also there's so much you can.

[Anne Bogel]

Explore, like the history of chocolate. How is it sourced today? The Science of Cooking. I have some books for that. Oven Temperature Experimenting, the History of Chocolate.

[Lee Kramer]

Chip Cookies, Toll House. How does that factor in? What are we doing now? I love it. I'm not going to borrow that, but gosh, that sounds fun.

[Amy St. Amand]

It's fun. Yeah. And food science is definitely one that I have an interest in. And so I have gotten into cooking.

A lot more over the last five years since we moved into our home. And one of the books that I've had on my TBR for a long time and haven't read yet is Salt Fat, Acid Heat.

Oh, my gosh. I know. I definitely need to read it.

[Anne Bogel]

I mean, I say it like that, not because, oh, I can't believe you haven't. Because I can always believe when somebody.

[Lee Kramer]

Hasn'T read a book, there's so much to read.

[Anne Bogel]

Not a surprise, but it's so perfect for a personal curriculum on food science.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

Let's talk about. Well, I think.

[Anne Bogel]

I think we're going to come back to that, but can we hear about some of the topics you're considering exploring in the future?

[Amy St. Amand]

Yeah, absolutely.

So food science, international cuisine. So learning more about the flavor palates.

And how to cook with some other styles than what I'm used to to.

Really expand my repertoire.

I also have always been fascinated by Greek mythology. I actually took a Greek mythology course as an elective in college. So I've got a little bit of a working knowledge there. But I always enjoy every time that I revisit it, whether it's in fictional context or nonfiction. So I'd really like to delve deeper there. Another one was how music Affects the brain. So Oliver Sacks, who has a book about that musicophilia, I believe was something.

I've read a long time ago, back in high school, and I'd love to.

Revisit that and also look very, very scientific level of how our brain interacts.

With music and vice versa.

And something else that has been on my list and that I've wanted to learn for A long time is American Sign Language.

I've took Spanish for forever growing up in high school and college, and I'm still not conversational in it, which is terrible. But I feel like sign language because.

Maybe it's using, like, different part of.

The brain or it's not, you know.

All verbal, that it might be something that sort of really loops me in deeper.

And I don't know.

I'm just looking to expand on that too. So those are some of the topics.

And I am remiss if I don't say that's just like a small sampling of the things that I'm potentially interested in, because there's just so many ways.

That this could go.

And I think that's part of what's.

So fun about it, is that there's no end date. There's no finishing this per se. Is if you sort of are enjoying it, something you can take elements of and implement going forward. And I could learn about a new topic every month or every season. And that really, really excites me as somebody who's always been a lifelong learner.

[Anne Bogel]

Well, this is exciting.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

I'm excited for you. Thanks. And I'm also.

[Anne Bogel]

My brain is drawing parallels to the priority to be read list. I like to keep just a few titles on a post. It note to remind myself when I finish a book, oh, this is what I already decided I probably want to read next. And I love how I think what we may be hearing is you describe the potential topics you're interested in exploring your version of. There's so many things you're interested in, but you're thinking these 3, 4, 5 topics are probably gonna be the first ones you hit. In the near term, they could get.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

Bumped out by new discoveries.

[Amy St. Amand]

Right.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

But.

[Anne Bogel]

But this is kind of like you're working.

[Amy St. Amand]

This is the working list.

Yeah.

[Anne Bogel]

Okay. This is so interesting. So much to pull from. What I'm wondering about is the interconnectedness of these topics that interest you. Now, the food science doesn't really fit here, at least not as far as I can see. When you bring international cuisines into it and it does a little bit more. But I'm seeing how so many of these topics have to do with shaping narratives, creating scaffolding for the story, stories we tell about ourselves, tools to communicate, like, deep, emotional human truths. Not just creating that scaffolding, but then putting stories upon them. We see a lot of stories and language and narrative. I'm wondering, would all topics be about that? Like, is that just. Is that just how we are as readers, or is there something that speaks to you and that little encapsulation.

[Amy St. Amand]

That is a really interesting observation, and.

I do think that that's a particular.

Area of fascination for me is sort of how we all interact with one another and whether that be via music or with Greek mythology, thinking about sort of the stories that we use to explain our past and eventually events that happen in our lives.

And of course with the sign language.

I would love to be able to communicate with others in a way that's more accessible to them and not just accessible to me.

So I think that that's a really, like I said, interesting observation.

And I do think that there's some kernel there, that there is a thread with some of the areas of interest that I have.

[Anne Bogel]

Okay, I'm going to keep pondering that as we talk. But Amy, if it's okay, I'm wondering if we can kind of envision some possibilities each of these topics Great.

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[Anne Bogel]

Let's start with Food Science. Since you already mentioned it and since.

[Lee Kramer]

I told you how, this is the one that doesn't currently fit in the framework that I was beginning to see.

[Anne Bogel]

But you already mentioned Salt Fat Acid Heat by Samin Nose Rat, which sounds fantastic, a fantastic pick. What made you say you haven't read it yet? Is it on your shelf? Is it something you've been thinking you'd enjoy reading?

[Amy St. Amand]

Um, it's literally sitting in the room.

With me right now. I'm.

I'm in my home office where I have my little personal library, and it's something that I had picked up based off of recommendations that I had seen.

There's also, I believe, a documentary or.

Short series on Netflix that each episode.

Sort of follows one of the four. And I think this could be just how my brain works.

But whenever I find an area of interest or something that I'm excited about, I do end up doing sort of like a deep delve in Whether that's like a hobby or with cooking, where, when I started with that, I really just wanted to know as much as.

Possible so that I was using the right types of seasonings and the right levels of things. So I had picked up this book.

With the intention of really delving deeper into that.

And then, you know, just sometimes life gets in the way or other things take priority or my brain shifts and.

There'S something else that I'm really excited about, and I go and dive down that rabbit hole. So I haven't had the kind of opportunity to really read through it just yet.

I have a ton of other cookbooks as well, but this is the one that really, I think is going to go deeper into the science behind why certain combinations of ingredients work the way that they do.

[Anne Bogel]

Yes, she does explain the why and how of it all. And also, so I'm not adding this to your metaphorical plate here, but she has a cookbook that just came out in September called Good Things, which she took a very different approach to. And I've enjoyed hearing more about what was special about the first book, in contrast to her new book, which is a more traditional compilation of recipes and less about the theory. I don't know if this makes a difference for you, especially because you own Salt Fat Acid Heat, but it's great on audio. Recipes are way down the list. They're the things she begrudgingly included in Salt Fat Acid Heat. She mostly wants to tell you how it works and to consider your relationship with your ingredients and the ingredients relationships to each other. And you can do that wonderfully with your ears, especially if you learn well in that format.

[Amy St. Amand]

Yeah, that sounds like a really good.

Idea or maybe even like an immersive.

Reading experience with that one, since I.

Do have the physical copy as well. And I did did see Good Things.

That came across my. My view yesterday, actually. So it's funny that you bring that up.

Yeah.

So I, I think that's what I.

Really want to know more about is why things work together, because then it really allows you to be more creative. And if you can understand the principles behind why these particular flavors work together.

You'Re able to substitute things in a.

Recipe or make it your own, which.

I, I am really excited about.

[Anne Bogel]

I'm glad to hear that.

[Amy St. Amand]

I also, when I was in college.

I did a lot of nutrition courses.

I almost was able to minor in it. I was like two or three credits short. But I feel like this kind of.

Ties into that, that same interest as.

Well, just more on the flavor side.

Of things as opposed to the actual.

Chemical composition of the food.

[Anne Bogel]

Wait, what's the first part? As opposed to the actual chemical composition? If.

[Lee Kramer]

Okay.

[Amy St. Amand]

It's about the flavors.

Yeah.

And how the flavors work together.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

Okay, well, then I'm wondering if some of these other books that I was.

[Anne Bogel]

Thinking of that were very much about food science are actually up your ALLEY. But Harold McGee's on food and cooking is a classic. He wrote an update in 2010 called Keys to Good Cooking, but there's some.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

Newer ones, and I wonder if the.

[Anne Bogel]

One that is basically a popular Harvard class turned into a very long book would be good for you. It's called Science and Cooking Physics Meets Food From Homemade to Oak Sweet. And it's by Michael Brenner, P.S. lawrence, and David Weitz. It's available in audiobook. I don't know anything about the audiobook, but it does have recipes.

[Lee Kramer]

It's not a cookbook. Chocolate chip cookies are featured prominently in one section, if that's your personal curriculum.

[Anne Bogel]

But what they're doing is saying, like, here's what we know about physics, chemistry, and engineering and what it means for what you're making in your kitchen. And they cover all cooking kinds of dishes, like the cookies, but also caramelized carrot soup or Chinese soup dumplings. And I want.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

I wonder if that would be interesting.

[Amy St. Amand]

That sounds really fascinating, and especially for me, like the scientist brain, you know, as a pharmacist, of, like, wanting to.

Understand that relationship, too. That does sound really compelling.

[Anne Bogel]

I think when I found out about it, it was described as being perfect for science geeks who love to cook and cooks who love the science of it all.

[Amy St. Amand]

Well, that sounds just about right.

[Anne Bogel]

I'll hold back. There's more along those lines.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

For international cuisine.

[Anne Bogel]

There's so many options that you can hone in on individual cuisines. But for an overview, I really love National Dish. That came out a couple years ago. This is available on audio, but the illustrations are so beautiful and such a prominent part of the book. I might recommend seeking that one out. But this is by Anya von Bremsen, and the subtitle is around the World in Search of Food History and the Meaning of Home. And what she's doing is examining six different places through the lens of their, quote, national dish. Maybe not the only one, but a one that is beloved, that they are known for. Like, in Seville, she goes into tapas, and in Tokyo, she goes into ramen and rice, and Naples gets pizza and pasta. And I wonder if hearing.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

I mean, the specifics, the details, that.

[Anne Bogel]

You enjoy about a particular place and an individual dish, I think are very interesting. But also just the way she's thinking about what does food mean and how does it become imbued with this meaning, I think could potentially be really interesting and a launching off point for. Okay, what do you want to explore more of that was in these pages? Or what do you want to read about that wasn't here? And you find yourself missing it and wanting to know more.

[Amy St. Amand]

That sounds like a really great option.

And I am interested in learning more.

About sort of the cultural aspects of food as well. So I think that that would be.

A really good place to start.

[Anne Bogel]

Okay, I'm glad to hear it. I'm excited for you.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

And the outputs you could create for yourself.

[Amy St. Amand]

The assignments, those are the most fun.

[Anne Bogel]

With their cooking, with food. Yeah. I mean, Netflix documentary. But also time in your own kitchen, time out to restaurants, travel.

[Lee Kramer]

You could order all kinds of spices off the Internet. Oh, it's a.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

Or I don't know what's available in Rhode Island. Maybe you go to your local shop.

[Anne Bogel]

But that sounds like so much fun. Okay, so you love Fleetwood Mac and you're interested in the science of music and putting those together. There's a lot of good stuff about how music. What did you say, affects the brain? And also some books that pull in some narrative crafting perspectives. So as you were describing. Well, you mentioned Musicophilia by Oliver Sacks. Oh, my goodness. You said that John Green, Daniel James Brown, Mary Roach were up your alley.

[Amy St. Amand]

Yes.

[Anne Bogel]

Oliver Sacks, I think, has written so much about such a wide variety of topics that I think you. You would, by and large, really enjoy.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

But there are some great books by Daniel Leviton.

[Anne Bogel]

He wrote a book called this is your Brain on Music, the Science of a Human Obsession, where he's seeking to make the neuroscience of music accessible to. I mean, you're more educated in the sciences than I am, but, like, accessible to the layperson who doesn't speak neuroscience but is very interested in how it all works and why.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

He also wrote a book that came out out a year ago called I.

[Anne Bogel]

Heard There was a Secret Music is Medicine, which. Which builds on that idea. It came out more recently and talks about how music affects our brains in very particular ways. And I think either one of those books sound right up your alley.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

I also read a book last year called this Is what It Sounds what the Music youc Love says about yout.

[Anne Bogel]

By Susan Rogers and OG Augass. This is not so much about the science, and there were some. There were Some ways in which this book wasn't what I had wanted it to be. But I thought this book had a very like, what should I read next approach to music. It said like, okay, here are some.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

Elements that you might not be able.

[Anne Bogel]

To articulate that go into what you love. They talk about rhythm and lyrics and beat and tempo and all the. I'm doing this from memory. This is a terrible list I just gave you.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

But they, they pull all these artists.

[Anne Bogel]

Some well known and some not at all, from history. And in the audiobook, they play snippets of so much of the music and say, notice this, pay attention to this. What do you like about this? This is what this artist is doing. This is why it was controversial. This is why it was different. This is why it's important. This is how it works. And I think especially on audio, that could be a really interesting experience for you. You.

[Amy St. Amand]

That sounds like so much fun.

And, you know, even though it's not necessarily the science or the medicine of.

Music that you mentioned with the other two books, it does speak to that other thread we were talking about, about.

Like the connection between human beings and.

Sort of the way that we craft our own narratives. So that I think really appeals to that.

That side of my curiosity.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

Yes.

[Anne Bogel]

And if we're piling on. Jeff Tweedy of Wilco has a series.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

Of books, but he has a super.

[Anne Bogel]

Short excellent on audiobook called how to Write One Song that is not remotely a how to. He talks about the process of writing a song and every time he sits.

[Lee Kramer]

Down to do it, he thinks, I don't know how to do this.

[Anne Bogel]

But he, he writes the songs in talking about that, shaping narratives. What is the scaffolding for this emotional experience that I want to convey? I think you may enjoy that kind of reflective approach. It's three hours. You can decide if you want to. You want to chance it and see.

[Lee Kramer]

If that's up your alley or not.

[Anne Bogel]

I'm curious.

[Amy St. Amand]

I mean, all of these sound amazing and like I said before, like, I am so curious about everything that, that it would. All of these sound really interesting and fascinating to me.

[Anne Bogel]

I'm glad to hear it. I mean, I'm so. I want to learn about all this. I want to read all this, these like, or reread for some of them.

[Lee Kramer]

I know how good they are.

[Anne Bogel]

Want to do it again? Okay, let's talk about ASL and Greek mythology and then we'll stop piling on.

[Amy St. Amand]

Okay.

[Anne Bogel]

But again, stories, language, how we communicate. There's a great courses class that's quite popular, called American Sign Language for everyone. So that may be available to you.

[Amy St. Amand]

Yes, that's on my watch list.

[Anne Bogel]

Okay.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

You mentioned Oliver Sacks, and he has.

[Anne Bogel]

A book from 1989 that really holds up, up, as far as I know anything about the topic. It's called Seeing Voices. And it's his journey at the time into the world of deaf culture and what he calls the. As Oliver Sacks does, the neurological underpinnings and also the social meaning and structural scaffolding of the visual language of those who are congenitally deaf. And, I mean, this is Oliver Sacks doing what Oliver Sacks does. And there are so many fascinating books you could pair this with. One I've been meaning to read for ages but have not read yet and is referenced constantly as a classic is from the 80s. It's called everyone Here Spoke Sign Language about Hereditary Deafness on Martha's Vineyard. This was profound and groundbreaking at the time and is continually referenced today. There are wonderful opportunities to practice ASL yourself and do output in that way.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

And also there's some really great novels.

[Anne Bogel]

Like Sara Novich's True Biz, which we.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

Read with book club that talks about.

[Anne Bogel]

Deaf culture, but also some of the complexities and nuances that, as a person of hearing who wasn't very familiar with that world, I just never consider, like, some of the tensions and ethical dilemmas I never considered and really enjoyed learning about in those pages. And then there's a historical novel pointed to all the time called Anne Claire Lizalt called Show Me a Sign that I haven't read yet, but would be on my list where I'm putting together a personal curriculum soon for this topic.

[Amy St. Amand]

Well, those all sound like perfect complements.

To maybe doing the class on the great courses. And I have actually read True Biz, but ironically read it as an audiobook.

And I think that they're making maybe something with that particular novel that it could be lost in the audio version of it. So I think if I were to revisit that, I would probably want to read a physical copy because I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I.

Believe they actually show some of the.

Signals within the text of that novel that I didn't get as a listener.

[Anne Bogel]

That's true. But I read the print and didn't.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

Listen to the audiobook.

[Anne Bogel]

And so I know what I meant was hearing the narrator make the signs as they're referenced in the book.

[Amy St. Amand]

Okay.

[Anne Bogel]

Which I thought was really cool. This is one of the books that I might actually do in tandem.

[Amy St. Amand]

Yeah.

Maybe another IMMERSIVE experience for that one. Okay, that's great. That's exciting. And I, you know, even if I've.

Read something before, sort of revisiting it with this new lens of, you know, how it ties into some of these broader topics or these deep dives that I'm going into. Like, I'm always open to sort of revisiting something that I enjoyed in the past.

[Anne Bogel]

Yeah. Okay. In Greek mythology, there are so many directions you could take this and readers, if you're interested in this. We did a class last fall in modern Mrs. Darcy Book Club called Greek Mythology for Readers that could be used straight up as a personal curriculum, although it would keep any reader busier for much, much longer than a month. But there's so many to directions. You could take this. And I know you've thought about them. Like, you could read modern retellings. You could read the original stories. You could see adaptations. What specifically appeals to you? And we'll get you some resources.

[Amy St. Amand]

I think the most fun that I've.

Had with it has been the retellings, whether that's in fiction novels.

Like, I recently read Hera by Jennifer Saint.

[Anne Bogel]

Yeah.

[Amy St. Amand]

So I've really enjoyed novels like that. And I guess what I would love.

Is to be a little bit more prepared with the backstories before diving into some of those novels, just so I'm, like, able to make those connections more succinctly.

Every time I've come back to Greek.

Mythology, and often it's been in the form of fiction. I always have a fun time with it and remembering the stories and the, you know, how all of the gods and goddesses interact with each other and the heroes. It's just so much fun. There's so much there.

I feel like this is a bad confession, but I've never read the Iliad or the Odyssey, so that. That might be something that I should prioritize.

[Anne Bogel]

I don't think anyone's aghast, and it.

[Lee Kramer]

Wouldn'T really matter if they were.

[Amy St. Amand]

Yeah, yeah, it's. So that's, you know, those are sort.

Of the things that I'm thinking about with Greek mythology. And.

And I've been enjoying sort of taking the lecture courses, too, because it just.

Brings me back to the things that I really enjoyed about school and college and just being in a learning environment.

And so it's been fun so far.

So I definitely will be investigating some of those resources, too.

But anything to complement that is really.

What I am looking for.

[Anne Bogel]

Okay, well, you know, any of those would be great. As far as it goes on audio. If this interests you, you can listen to the newer translation of the Odyssey by Emily Wilson as narrated by Claire Danes.

[Amy St. Amand]

Okay.

[Anne Bogel]

That's available. If that interests you, you could follow that up by perhaps reading this Tender Land by William Kent Krueger, which is a loose retelling. Like, he sets his story in the Depression era, beginning in, I want to say it's Minnesota. And then they. These kids all on the run for different reasons after a devastating tornado where they live, set off down the river on an epic kind of journey heading toward St. Louis. So that's a more imaginative retelling. I think a lot of authors would call that a reimagining. That could be a lot of fun.

[Amy St. Amand]

I actually have that on my shelf and I haven't read it, so that's.

A really fun one.

I've got it right behind me.

[Anne Bogel]

Okay, ready to go. Another one that's a reimagining is Kamala Shamsi's Home Fire, which is. I'm sure plenty of people read this. It was long listed for the 2017 Booker Prize. It's a modern retelling of Antigone and love of political allegiance, terrorism. Like, those themes still feel very current, and she sets it in our current world, but it is a retelling of Antigone. So before you dive in, you could get into the story. You could read the triad of plays. You could, I don't know, you could do your Google summary. That would work too. But it sounds like you'd be up for reading the play or even the trilogy and then going on to read Home Fire and seeing how come let's Shamsi updated it for the modern era.

[Amy St. Amand]

Yeah, I think that's what's fun is sort of seeing how those threads are.

Pulled from the ancient stories and brought.

Into a modern light. So that is a really fun way of incorporating both of those things.

[Anne Bogel]

Yeah, but there are so many authors doing retellings of these classic myths and more modern language today. Like you mentioned, Jennifer Saint, Natalie Haynes, Claire Haywood, Madeline Miller's done a couple. The options continue to multiply. You could happily read retellings, I think.

[Lee Kramer]

Far beyond the parameters I imagine you.

[Anne Bogel]

Have in mind for your personal curriculum.

[Amy St. Amand]

Yeah, so I would agree with that.

And I think the idea for me.

With maybe doing a module or a.

Focus on the Greek mythology would be just to get myself reacquainted and familiarized with.

With some of the big stories and.

Then, you know, be able to recognize.

Them when I go back to a.

Retelling or A reimagining and be able to make those connections.

So, you know, whether that's, you know.

Months from now or years from now when I'm reading another story, but being able to hearken back to my knowledge, my working knowledge of Greek mythology. Yeah.

[Anne Bogel]

Okay, Amy. We covered a lot of ground today.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

So we talked about the topics you.

[Anne Bogel]

Have in process on building your vocabulary and cults and Fleetwood Mac, which might be on deck, and also dove into options for food, science and international cuisines. How music affects the brain, asl Greek mythology. I might be leaving some out. How are you feeling about moving forward now versus an hour ago? Has anything shuffled in your list? Have any resources jumped out at you?

[Amy St. Amand]

You? Well, I really appreciate all of the.

Recommendations, and I think that I am going to stick with Fleetwood Mac being my next area of interest just because.

I have so much excitement about diving into that. So I am really excited about the all the songs resource you had mentioned.

Maybe not to necessarily read it cover to cover, but if you.

If I'm reading through a biography or I'm watching a documentary and they're talking about the history of a particular song, being able to pull that out as a reference could be really fun. So that one, I think, would probably be the next on deck for me. But some of the other ones that you had talked about, like the Oliver.

Sacks books, and particularly not only how.

It has the music science, but then also how he has another one specific about the deaf community that's really. I'm almost like, now I'm thinking I should do a whole module on Oliver Sacks.

So, yeah, I think that's the trick with some of this is that you.

Start talking about topics, and then there.

Are so many ways that it can.

Branch off and become its own new avenue.

And so that has been a bit.

Of a challenge for me and just.

Sort of collecting all of the ideas.

That I have and then seeing, you know, sort of making it a little bit more structured, because that is the idea behind us is that you're creating.

Something that has a little bit of.

Structure and purpose behind it to delve into these topics. So I think we've really come up with some great resources today to be able to do that with the topics we covered.

[Anne Bogel]

Well, I'm so excited for you and thank you for bringing the topic of personal curriculum to what should I read next?

[Amy St. Amand]

Thank you so much, Anne.

[Anne Bogel]

Hey, readers.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Amy, and I'd love to hear what you think she should read next. Find Amy on Goodreads and fable. We'll have those links along with the full list of titles we talked about at what Should I read next? Podcast.com if you consider yourself a curious, curious person who wants to know what's happening at what Should I read next? HQ, subscribe to our email [e-mail] newsletter. You'll get a sneak peek at our newest episode every week. More details you want to know, like updates on our upcoming events, first announcements about stuff like new merch, and more. You can also follow us on Instagram, where at what Should I Read Next? Make sure you're following in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Overcast, wherever you get your podcasts. When you leave a review, that really.

[Anne Bogel]

Helps boost our show's visibility.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

When you give us a five star rating, that really helps too. When you click, follow or subscribe, that's a small action that makes a big.

[Anne Bogel]

Difference for our show. Thanks in advance and thank you if you've already done that. We really appreciate it.

[Narrator/Host (Anne Bogel)]

Thanks to the people who make the show happen. What Should I Read Next? Is created each week by Executive Producer Will Bogle, Media Production Specialist Holly Wilcox Kachevski, Social Media Manager and Editor Lee Kramer, Community Coordinator Bridget Mistlehorn, Community Manager Shannon Malone, and our whole team at what Should I Read Next? And Modern Mrs. Darcy HQ, plus the audio whizzes at Studio D Podcast production readers, that's it for this episode. Thanks so much for listening and as Reiner Maria Rilke said, ah, how good it is to be among people who are reading.

[Anne Bogel]

Happy reading everyone.