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What the Fundraising
215: AI-Powered Storytelling: Elevating Nonprofit Narratives with Visual Media with Dmitry Koltunov, Danny Wu, and Toren Reaves
00:25:58
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- [00:05]
Mallory
Hey, it's Mallory. Before we jump into today's episode, I just want to give you a name to look out for in 2025. It is rare that I come across a tech tool that's designed to help address fundraiser burnout by actually reducing our overwhelm and making actions easier to do. But I was floored when I saw the magic of Cadenza. So I want you to keep an eye out for that name, Cadenza. Make sure you're subscribed to the podcast and my email because we are going to have some fun analys announcements coming in 2025 and if you just can't wait any longer, you can go check out what they're building@get cadenza.com that's get cadenza.com I can't wait to hear what you think.
- [00:48]
Demetri
Knowing your audience. Where are they? Who are they? Right? And. And knowing that what you're trying to do in storytelling why storytelling is to create an emotional connection. And we're gonna drop a link. There was a really cool article by Fast Company that talked about the difference between fundraising on the web and fundraising on mobile, and it's found that people on mobile are very selfish.
- [01:13]
Mallory
Hey, my name is Mallory and I'm obsessed with helping leaders in the nonprofit space raise money and run their organizations differently. What the Fundraising is a space for real and raw conversations to both challenge and inspire you. Not too long ago, I was in your shoes, uncomfortable with fundraising and unsure of my place in this sector. It wasn't until I started to listen to other experts outside of the fundraising space that I was able to shift my mindset and ultimately shift the way I show up as a leader. This podcast is my way of blending professional and personal development so we, as a collective inside the nonprofit sector can feel good about the work we are doing. Join me every week as I interview some of the brightest minds in the personal and professional development space to help you fundamentally change the way you lead and fundraise. I hope you enjoy this episode. So let's dive in.
- [02:08]
Danny
A few times today already about storytelling. Just so y'all know, the afternoon keynote from A Flu of Bruce touched a little bit on storytelling, but because there are probably folks here who weren't at that session, I wanted to start broad and just first with, like, what makes good storytelling in the nonprofit sector and beyond. And when you think about storytelling using visual media, like videos and graphics, what are sort of the key elements in the creative process for nonprofits and Demetri, will you start us off there?
- [02:40]
Demetri
Yeah, absolutely. So the Other day, I was watching a masterclass from Ken Burns, and he said, I'm bound by the same exact rules as Spielberg. The only difference is I can't make anything up. And so, end of the day, we all know storytelling because we watch movies, we read books, and end of the storytelling is storytelling is storytelling. Except when we do nonprofit storytelling, we're really doing it from the vantage point of real people that are going through a transformation. So some of the key elements is that, number one, think about your goal. Why am I telling this story for a nonprofit? It may use it to attract funding. Is it to let people know about our services? There has to be a goal in mind, because once you have that goal, then you can check if the story is going to do that. Once you have the goal, when am I telling this story? Am I telling this for giving Tuesday? Or am I telling this at a gala? Because understanding when helps you contextualize your story, make it urgent, make it timely. It's much better to hear a story that's related to me right now rather than a story that's, you know, just kind of out there. So choosing your storytelling connected to the event. And also, are you telling your story on Instagram or are you telling your story on a big tv? Like, where, like, your event is going to be really different. So the kind of storytelling has to change. Knowing your audience, where are they? Who are they? Right? And. And knowing that what you're trying to do in storytelling, why storytelling, is to create an emotional connection. And we're going to drop a link. There was a really cool article by Fast Company that talked out the difference between fundraising on the web and fundraising on mobile. And it found that people on mobile are very selfish. The only way the same person on the web is less selfish than they are on mobile, and the only way that people were able to access giving was through storytelling. I just shared the article here. So in general, I think storytelling is about emotional engagement and nonprofit storytelling. For me, I like to use this concept called the Dorothy principle. If we all know the wizard of Oz. So whose story is the wizard of Oz? It's Dorothy's story, right? Dorothy is trying to get home, and she arrives in this place that's unknown, and the entire story is this transformation. But how does she get home? Takes these shoes, and she clicks the shoes together and she gets home. Now, imagine Prada sponsored that story. How many times does Dorothy have to say, I really love these Prada shoes, and I can't believe these Prada shoes got me home before you Stop really paying attention to store. You feel being sold to you feel like it's disingenuous. Right? So now imagine your nonprofit is the shoes. There has to be a natural story of how your beneficiary gets home, of how they transform. And the lion, all the scarecrow, those are all your staff. They're helping you, they're helping Dorsey. Right. So for me, storytelling and nonprofit storytelling is the same. Try to figure out your goal and then focus on that hero's journey or that transformation. And imagine your nonprofit is the shoes. It has to be very clear how the impact happened. But don't focus on the shoes. And then you have an infinite amount of stories to tell because there are an infinite amount of Dorothy's that go through your transformation.
- [06:00]
Danny
Okay. I love that visual. I love you walking us through a story that so many of us know to help sort of show or explain that to us. Show it to us. And so I'm curious, Danny, I'm going to keep this next one to you. So with that kind of creative process in mind, or those goals in mind, like where does AI come in? Like, how can AI simplify and enhance the creation of that compelling visual content to effectively communicate a nonprofit's mission or tell folks about the red shoes?
- [06:34]
Torin
Sure. So I say I can actually practically help with just about every stage of the creative process. It can be starting as a, starting as a brainstorming partner when you're working on, working on a draft or script for video perhaps, or if it's more of a static asset, it could help you create things like slogans, call to actions and copy. And finally you can also be, you can also use it to edit assets and edit images and make a lot of really time consuming tasks that would normally be really difficult, so much simpler and easier. But Mallory, I really like your question about effectively communicating the non prom submission because I think that's actually really important and it's also really, really important to give the AI context. If you're leveraging AI, adult automation is also not just your mission, like what is your mission, but also what are the goals and objectives that you're hoping to achieve? What is the audience that you're looking to connect with? And I think much like briefing or Craig, the more information you share and talk, the better the output will be. After all, like every piece of content that you want to create, every story you want to tell, like there's a deeper purpose behind it, hopefully, like wanting a purpose, you want it to be a lifestyle mission. And building on top of your Brand.
- [07:51]
Danny
Okay, I love that. So you're like. What I hear you saying, tell me if I'm hearing this right, is that it's really about, like, pulling back before even just the thing that you're using AI for, whether it's to create an image around blank or add an image and really take that step back in every time you're using a tool or doing a thing like that, to really be. Remind yourself of, like, the purpose of all of those things. Because that's going to sort of give some, like, heuristics almost to how you use the tools.
- [08:22]
Torin
Yeah, absolutely. Like, the way I think of it is, you know, if you're telling a story, there's a storyteller, right? And it's not uncommon for there to be multiple storytellers or maybe a team, a creative team that's jamming on it. And AI can be someone who enters the room and helps you with a lot of these things. But ultimately, like, you want to be telling your story. You don't want. You don't want to just leave it up to AI to tell their story.
- [08:48]
Danny
Yes, I could go down a rabbit hole there, and I'm going to, like, pull my ADHD brain back from doing that, because we're here at the Fundraising AI Summit, which is all about the responsible and beneficial use of AI. And so, Torin, I want to kick this one to you, actually. How can nonprofits who, given the context of sort of what we've talked about so far, how can nonprofits ensure that they're using AI ethically and responsibly in their visual storytelling aspirations effort? I love the way Danny was bringing that up about really sort of starting with the goal and sort of demetri around, like, the authenticity and. And focus on the. On the story itself. But especially as we think about. So many of these organizations are storytelling around sensitive topics like how do you think about that sort of ethical and responsible use of these tools?
- [09:36]
Corinne
So thank you for having me. And I'd like to approach this in two different directions. So one is like sort of from the external view in just to be transparent so that people are confused. Especially if you're running a nonprofit where you're generating funds or trying to. Or trying to, you know, get a call for donation. Nobody wants to feel as though they were dwindled in any way. So that would probably be like, first and foremost, like, if you end up generating imagery or use something like that, like a text to image, just being transparent about the source, but at the same time, like, maybe internally when it comes to creating the work itself, sometimes using text to image generation is actually. Can be as ethical as anything else. There's a nonprofit that I'm familiar with that's a home for women of domestic violence. And every year, you know, they reach out to different ad agencies to have, you know, people come in and do photo shoot to try to generate funds, and it's all pro bono work. Well, one year they had reached out to a different ad agency, and they sent their team of photographers in, and they were all young men. And so naturally, the women who lived at this home were super uncomfortable in. And here's an example where it's like, okay, speaking with a director, maybe instead of bringing in people from the outside, we can use AI to give a facsimile of that story in a way where nobody feels as though their actual physical safety is being threatened or that they're having to expose themselves. And so you can turn their stories into an image using text to image. And so that's an example of, you know, maybe this is the safer approach to putting out content that doesn't come at the. The detriment of the people who you're trying to actually serve. So being transparent to the audience. And then also there's. There's a way to use AI very ethically for your, like, on the internal side when it comes to creating the content itself.
- [11:31]
Danny
Yes.
- [11:31]
Demetri
Okay.
- [11:32]
Danny
I love that. And I think. I think it really actually leads to the question. I sort of wanted you, Demetri, to maybe add onto this a little bit, which you also. You also talked about, I think, on kind of the flip side in that first question around, like, how do we maintain that, like, authenticity, especially when we're using AI generated visuals? Right. Like, I feel like if we were having this conversation, you know, a year ago, folks wouldn't even necessarily know what we were talking about. And now I think, I mean, and we've seen and saw the presentations, too, like, the massive difference sometimes in how quote, unquote real that visual looks and feels and things like that, right? So authenticity. I think on the one hand, we can think about the types of visuals that AI spits out quickly with the words jumbled. And it's very clear that it was AI generated, you know, versus things that feel really real. And so I'm curious, like, how do you think about that, that piece of it?
- [12:29]
Demetri
And I love that question. So I think a lot of times we associate AI with generating something fresh, and I actually think about AI in a different way. I actually always want to Start with the human story. And so, like, for instance, for us, we try to scale authentic storytelling. What happens is we take interviews by real people and then we say, hey, the process of taking that person and sharing their story broadly is actually really complicated. It could take 50 to 100 hours. How do we reduce that to minutes? Well, first, you can use AI to focus the human story. You said a lot of things. What are. What is the main narrative thread that we want to focus in on? Right. Take 30 minutes down to three. Then we can use AI to transform the story. Now I have these three minutes. How can I turn that into clips? How can I turn that into. Into quotes? How can I turn that into content? Right. And then we use AI to reframe the story. So I'm telling the story for giving Tuesday. Now I'm telling the story for my annual impact report. Now I'm telling this story as a part of a bigger story to demonstrate the transformation that we've had for a grant. That's the same story, but it's told differently. And AI is really, really good at taking your foundational information and reframing it. Another thing that, like a principle that we have and storytelling principle is, is don't not tell if you help. If you are a nonprofit that helps kids with disabilities compete in sports, don't tell me that you help kids with disabilities compete in sports. Tell me about Lucy who won a national championship because of your donation of a wheelchair. Right? So a lot of times we want to see these things in action. Other ways to keep authenticity is to make sure you understand your tone. And if you're a marketing person, you're like, oh, I have this doc that does my comms up. But you may not know that, but you do know what you wrote. So you can take something that you wrote, throw it into AI and say, describe my tone to me. And you're like, I like that tone, but I don't like that tone. What's going on? Right? And then a few kind of other things is understand the event that you're talking about and make sure that the story is framed for the event, that it feels authentic. Otherwise, if it just feels like a story that could have been told at any point, you kind of lose the authenticity, and that's where AI can transform. And lastly, good storytelling is good storytelling. So I'm going to kind of throw this in the chat. We actually built a tool. You haven't released it broadly yet, but I'll give it out to. To. To the folks here, which actually lets you Drop your story in and it analyzes it across all the different storytelling rubrics and gives you an in depth report from a dramaturgy perspective of what you need to do to tell that story and in the Most authentic way. Storygrader.com free to use courtesy Arbor Wow.
- [15:32]
Danny
Thank you.
- [15:37]
Mallory
Hey, it's Mallory. I remember the frustration of managing multiple tools. Payment processors, spreadsheets, CRMs, all while syncing data manually. It was inefficient, prone to mistakes and worst of all, created missed opportunities to connect with donors. But now there's GiveButter plus, designed to simplify your fundraising. GiveButter plus reduces tool management complexity, helps you save time and most importantly enhances donor experiences. I'm so excited about this because your time should be spent on building connected relationships, not juggling tools. Start your free 30 day trial today at givebutter.com Mallory.
- [16:22]
Danny
You know Dani, I'd love to know from your perspective, like when you think about where does human involvement sort of matter the most in the storytelling process when a highest views, like, especially when it comes to live videos and visual media, like what are the sort of moments where you're like, okay, that's a human function. How you think about that?
- [16:43]
Torin
I do that. I was on the. I would. So this is a bit of a pop out answer that I would actually have to say everywhere. But I'll be so much to the answer later. But I feel like throughout the entire process, be able to interject your own creativity, be able to check your own emotions, your own human input and touch like will carry through like in the, in the content you create. It'll be more engaging, it'll be more engaging to your audience. But I think specifically like at the very beginning is where your input and your guidance is the most important and it basically sets the stage for like the entire process. And the step I would also, the other most modern step I'd say is probably the very end when you're making final tweaks, polishes and checking our work. And it's totally okay to just like totally redo a session that section because you have a different creative vision in mind or you think and do it. But I would, I would definitely encourage having healing moment throughout the entire process. Just creates better content.
- [17:42]
Danny
Okay, I think that's a great answer especially from the head of a vet because I think like so much of this is really about this, this nuanced intersection, right. Of using these tools to help us, to help make things easier for us as nonprofit leaders, but not to be less human in our work. And so I really, really appreciate that answer. And you know, this actually segues great. Into something, Corinne, that I was, I was wanting to ask you, which is one of the things we talked about this with Seth Godin a little bit too, that I'd worry about in our sector is that a lot of our measurements of success, success are very transactional and are also very like, short sighted. Right. It's like, how do we measure sort of the success of a story that we've told? And the measurements often that we use, like, are immediate, which maybe that's all you can ever measure with KPIs, but I'm curious, like, we want to make sure that AI doesn't just help us do more bad fundraising faster. Edwood Rosenbaum always says himself, I'm curious from your vantage point, like, when, if you are thinking about measuring the success of storytelling, what metrics or outcomes you might focus on beyond something like fundraising dollars in this content?
- [18:58]
Corinne
Yeah, I mean, it's going to be all those things. Even with the KPIs, you could have the most robust report sent back to you. And it's not so much about what metrics are being delivered, it's what you infer from them. And even that's like an art in and of itself. Like, if I am looking at like, oh, well, you know, stats are down month over month, like, there might be a completely external reason for that, but on a chart by itself, it's like, you know, you can't really make a, an educated guess, if that makes any sense. And so not just like relying on metrics for what your barometer for success might be. For me personally, it's always been like an internal sort of gratitude. Like, did I enjoy the process of creating this even with generative AI? If I'm coming up with a bunch of variations, really? Like, I've thought a lot about this. It's like, is the art itself the output or is it the process of making it? Like, at what point is the artist removed? And at the end of the day, like, it's all artifice. None of it's real and so it's authentic. If, like the idea was mine, like, maybe I didn't manufacture it in a way that's traditional, but it's like, if I'm just posting, nobody knows. And so like, where are you there? And so if I'm coming up with a thousand variations that AI created an instant and I can only pick one now, the art is curative. Like, what do I choose to put in front of you. And that says about how I think and what my approach is. And so that's a skill in and of itself. Like, you can put a thousand pair of sneakers in front of my dad. He will pick the goofiest ones to wear no matter what. Like, that's just not a skill that he has. But if, you know, if it's the same with, like, generating work and, you know, using, you know, one of the AI text to image engines, you still have to choose. You still have to have the vision, you still have to be the one to give it the idea. And so to answer your question about where to frame success, it's like, did it feel right to you? Did you put something out there that didn't feel right? Like, regardless of the money, are you uncomfortable with this or was it the exact opposite? And you're like, wow, I loved making this. I loved what we put out there. That's like the sort of thing where I tend to lean. But there are times where it's like, okay. Like, we do actually have to raise some money, though, so you'll have to balance that for yourselves.
- [21:07]
Danny
Okay. I am obsessed with that answer. And anybody who follows my work is like, oh, my gosh, Mallory planned that answer and I did not. But because a lot of what I talk about in my book that came out today is around sort of discomfort and how do we lean into and interpret that discomfort and how do we check in with ourselves throughout the different process, even so. And love that you're talking about, like, yeah, you can look at that external stuff, but also there are some really important, like, self facing questions to tap into and not ignore and sort of push through as you're, you know, figuring out what all this looks like in real time. Okay, so because we are a little bit short on time, Danny, I have a question that we cannot get off this call without me asking because. And then we'll do a little rapid fire Dimitri and Torrin to help us close up. So I personally and I know everybody at fundraising AI, we really love Canva's field, which is part of the way that Canva talks about data and privacy that is really unique and really sets a high and important bar. And since we're always talking about the responsibilities of AI, I'd love for you to just tell everybody a little bit about that and what it is and why it matters.
- [22:18]
Torin
Yeah, I'd be happy to. So when we first started building AI at Canva, we had a lot of principles and thoughts. Like, we saw that we had a really serious responsibility to build AI safely and ethically for our community as well as all of our stakeholders. So we adopted a few principles like robust trust and safety, ensuring that creatives get paid to ots and also benefit from AI. And also not training AI on camera users private content without the explicit opt in, not opt out consent. So all of these want to become Cana Shield and where just we just, I guess saw we think AI is really transformative and disruptive, but that also increases the power of our responsibility for taking that run.
- [23:03]
Danny
Thank you. Yeah, we really appreciate the way y'all are setting a great example there. I dropped the link to learn more about Canvas Shield in the chat as well. Okay, Demetri, I'm going to kick it to you. And then Torren, I'll let you wrap up with the same question, which is to just drop one rapid fire tip for nonprofits to keep in mind as they begin experimenting with AI and with storytelling. What's your sort of one big takeaway?
- [23:27]
Demetri
It's important to understand how AI plays into your decision making. Crosses. You come in asking a question and you're like, oh, that's a bad answer. You're not using AI appropriately. And I I'm a huge Ted Lasso fan and he has this episode where he says, be curious, not judgmental online. Did Walthausen say that? It says not Walt Horton. I'm not sure who said it. Maybe it was just Ted Lasso and his brilliant writers. But be curious, not judgmental. You get an answer, you don't like that answer, why ask the AI to explain to you why did it give that answer? Ask it to justify. In that justification, you're going to learn something, right? So a lot of times we'll just judge the answer and whether we like it or not, we're jumping to a conclusion. But for me, really using AI is about mastering what good looks like and what bad looks like. And once you understand those parameters, I've had, I've asked a question, it gave me an awful answer. Then I said, why did you give this answer? It explains that actually use this context and set. And it became a phenomenal answer, right? Because what you don't know when you ask, really, it's. It's like learning how to Google. You have to learn how to ask the right questions, right? So when you get a bad answer from AI, why did you get that answer? Inquire the thought process that the AI used and then correct assumptions based on your expertise, your taste, your aesthetic.
- [24:44]
Danny
Okay. I'm really glad you went there and dug into that. Thank you so much.
- [24:54]
Mallory
I hope today's episode inspired or challenged you to think differently. For additional takeaways, tips, show notes, and more about our amazing guest and sponsors, head on over to Malloryerickson.com podcast and if you didn't know, hosting this podcast isn't the only thing I do every day. I coach, guide and help fundraisers and leaders just like you Inside of my program, the Power Partners Formula Collective. Inside the program, I share my methods, tools and experiences that have helped me fundraise millions of dollars and feel good about myself in the process. To learn more about how I can help you, visit MalloryPartners. Last but not least, if you enjoyed this episode, I'd love to encourage you to share it with a friend you know would benefit or leave a review. I'm so grateful for all of you and the good, hard work you're doing to make our world a better place. I can't wait to see you in the next episode. Hey you. I hope you're loving all the free value you're getting right now from our guest. And speaking of free value, I've raised millions in the nonprofit space without sacrificing my integrity or my alignment. And I'm sharing how I did it in my free webinar, how to Harness the Power of Prioritization to Raise More without burning out. Go to mallorykson.comworkshop to register for the free training right now. I cannot wait to see you there.