222: Ethical Volunteer Engagement for Nonprofit Success with Jessica Pang-Parks

Summary

Podcast Summary: Episode 222 - Ethical Volunteer Engagement for Nonprofit Success with Jessica Pang-Parks

Podcast Information:

• Title: What the Fundraising
• Host: Mallory Erickson
• Guest: Jessica Pang-Parks
• Release Date: January 14, 2025
• Duration: Approximately 35 minutes (content focus)

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Introduction

In Episode 222 of What the Fundraising, host Mallory Erickson delves into the critical topic of ethical volunteer engagement with guest expert Jessica Pang-Parks. This episode is tailored for nonprofit leaders and fundraisers seeking innovative and ethical strategies to enhance their organizations' impact through volunteer involvement. Jessica brings her extensive experience and insights to the conversation, challenging traditional notions and advocating for a more strategic and mission-aligned approach to volunteer management.

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Understanding the Value of Volunteers

Jessica Pang-Parks begins by emphasizing the necessity for nonprofits to evaluate the true value volunteers bring to their organizations. She urges leaders to consider whether volunteers add meaningful value beyond cost-saving measures. Jessica states:

"We need to stop thinking of volunteers as just a way to save money."
— Jessica Pang-Parks [06:31]

She critiques the commonly used wage replacement rate, arguing that it reduces the multifaceted contributions of volunteers to mere numbers. Instead, Jessica highlights the inherent value of volunteers, emphasizing aspects like time, talent, ties, and testimony—the four T's—as essential components for effective fundraising and community engagement.

Key Points:

• Volunteers should contribute unique skills and lived experiences.
• The focus should shift from financial savings to enhancing mission impact.
• Measuring volunteer impact should go beyond simple metrics like hours or numbers.

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Strategic Volunteer Engagement vs. Volunteer Programs

Jessica challenges the traditional concept of volunteer programs, advocating instead for a volunteer engagement strategy. Drawing on insights from her mentor, Erin Spank, she underscores the importance of aligning volunteer roles with the organization's mission. Jessica shares a quote from her former boss, Christine McKernan:

"Volunteer engagement is not a make-work project. Just create volunteer roles and experiences to give people something to do in the hopes that they will raise money with you."
— Jessica Pang-Parks [05:22]

Key Points:

• Treat volunteer engagement as a strategic activity closely tied to the mission.
• Avoid creating volunteer roles solely for fundraising purposes.
• Ensure volunteer activities provide genuine value to both the organization and the volunteers.

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Ethical Considerations in Volunteer Engagement

The conversation shifts to the ethical implications of volunteer engagement, particularly in relation to fundraising. Mallory shares her personal experience of leveraging volunteer opportunities through corporate CSR departments, prompting a discussion on the balance between organizational needs and volunteer value.

Jessica responds by offering alternative models for corporate volunteer engagement that focus on meaningful, sustained contributions rather than one-off events. She provides examples such as:

• Ongoing volunteer shifts in community-focused initiatives.
• Specialized projects utilizing corporate employees' unique skills (e.g., marketing teams creating videos for nonprofits).
• Educational sessions that empower volunteers with skills like CPR, encouraging informal volunteering.

Notable Quotes:

"Volunteers should never replace staff. That is completely unethical."
— Jessica Pang-Parks [27:29]

"When volunteer engagement is done well, you don't have a volunteer bank. You don't just have frozen volunteers that you can like pull out of your desk drawer and defrost and send to a golf tournament."
— Jessica Pang-Parks [19:31]

Key Points:

• Avoid tokenistic volunteer roles that do not align with the organization's mission.
• Encourage long-term, meaningful volunteer contributions.
• Recognize that volunteer engagement requires dedicated resources and planning.

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Addressing Organizational Capacity and Resource Allocation

Mallory brings up the challenge small organizations face when lacking dedicated volunteer coordinators. Jessica acknowledges this reality, especially within volunteer-run organizations, and suggests leveraging available resources wisely. She underscores the importance of:

• Trust and transparency with the community.
• Clear role descriptions and policies tailored for volunteers.
• Specialized training to handle volunteer engagement effectively.

Jessica introduces the Equity in Action Toolkit as a valuable resource for organizations striving to implement ethical volunteer practices, emphasizing the need for equity and specialized approaches rather than copying staff protocols directly.

Notable Quotes:

"Volunteer engagement isn't free. It takes money."
— Jessica Pang-Parks [19:31]

"Volunteers are people. We engage volunteers. We do not use people."
— Jessica Pang-Parks [27:28]

Key Points:

• Small organizations must prioritize and strategize their volunteer engagement despite limited resources.
• Investing in volunteer engagement processes is essential for long-term success.
• Utilize specialized toolkits and resources to build effective volunteer programs.

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Navigating Power Dynamics and Organizational Roles

The discussion touches upon the power dynamics between volunteer engagement professionals and other departments, such as fundraising. Jessica highlights the importance of collaboration and mutual respect among teams to ensure volunteers are effectively integrated into the organization without causing friction or redundancy.

She also addresses the systemic issues within the nonprofit sector, including colonialism, capitalism, and patriarchy, urging organizations to engage in self-reflection and systemic change to foster more equitable volunteer practices.

Key Points:

• Foster interdepartmental collaboration to enhance volunteer engagement.
• Address and mitigate systemic biases that can affect volunteer experiences.
• Encourage organizations to redefine success metrics beyond traditional systems.

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Conclusion and Call to Action

As the episode concludes, Mallory reflects on the emotional and professional impact of the conversation, recognizing the importance of rethinking volunteer engagement to align with ethical standards and organizational values. Jessica emphasizes the need for ongoing dialogue and collective efforts to build more equitable and impactful volunteer strategies.

Notable Quotes:

"What you're asking people to do, which I really value, is to say, take a step back and, like, redefine."
— Mallory Erickson [35:07]

"We are part of this system and this sector that is rooted in colonialism and capitalism and patriarchy. So it's not like these harms just come out of nowhere."
— Jessica Pang-Parks [32:41]

Key Points:

• Encourage continuous learning and adaptation in volunteer engagement practices.
• Promote equitable and mission-aligned volunteer strategies.
• Utilize provided resources (learnwithjpp.com, LinkedIn, Instagram) to further explore ethical volunteer engagement.

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Final Thoughts

Episode 222 of What the Fundraising serves as a crucial reminder for nonprofit leaders to reassess and elevate their volunteer engagement strategies. Jessica Pang-Parks provides actionable insights and challenges listeners to prioritize ethical considerations, ensuring that volunteer roles contribute meaningfully to their organizations' missions and foster genuine community connections.

For additional resources, listeners are encouraged to visit learnwithjpp.com or connect with Jessica on LinkedIn and Instagram. The episode underscores the importance of strategic, ethical volunteer engagement as a cornerstone for nonprofit success and sustainable community impact.

Transcript

[Jessica Pang Parks]

I really think nonprofits need to ask themselves these questions first. One is, will volunteers be adding value to what they do? What kind of unique skills and experiences do they bring? And this can be lived experience, right? As someone who's been a patient, a caregiver, a member of the community, and how can volunteers provide the depth of of relationship that staff might not have time for?

[Mallory]

Hey, my name is Mallory, and I'm obsessed with helping leaders in the nonprofit space raise money and run their organizations differently. What the fundraising is a space for real and raw conversations to both challenge and inspire you. Not too long ago, I was in your shoes, uncomfortable with fundraising and unsure of my place in this sector. It wasn't until I started to listen to other experts outside of the fundraising space that I was able to shift my mindset and ultimately shift the way I show up as a leader. This podcast is my way of blending professional and personal development so we, as a collective inside the nonprofit sector can feel good about the work we are doing. Join me every week as I interview some of the brightest minds in the personal and professional development space to help you fundamentally change the way you lead and fundraise. I hope you enjoy this episode. So let's dive in foreign.

[Host]

Welcome, everyone. I am so excited to be here today with Jessica Pang Parks. Jessica, welcome to what the fundraising.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

Hi, Mallory. Thanks so much for having me.

[Host]

Well, let's dive in, tell everyone a little bit about you, about your work, and then we'll sort of get into the nitty gritty.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

Yeah. Okay. So how nonprofits work so hard to build supporter trust, but many of them lose it by overlooking the influence that volunteers have. So that's why nonprofits who give a care call me when they're ready to create impact and inspire belonging through ethical volunteer engagement framework. And the result means genuine community. Buy in deeper connection to mission and you'll love this. More fundraising revenue.

[Host]

Yes. Okay. Well, I really appreciate that, and I love thinking about sort of the interconnection of community and getting your community involved in multiple ways. We won't go into Giving Tuesday, yes or no, right now, but one of the statistics I love around Giving Tuesday is that one of the most uncommon behaviors is people only donating. That sort of like the most common behavior is people donating, but the most uncommon behavior is people only donating, which means that most people are looking for an additional form of engagement on that day, and I think in particular, but probably more than that day. And that just sort of tells us a little bit about people's appetite to be involved in the organizations they love and support and how deeply that is connected to their giving in a lot of circumstances, in a lot of ways. So that comes with a huge variety of questions. And I feel like volunteer programs can be a little bit of a hot button issue, particularly when you are talking about it in relationship to fundraising, because it can create some complicated dynamics. And so, you know me, I like to get right to the heart of the matter. So can you tell me a little bit about how you think about volunteer programs in relationship to fundraising or the fundraising department or safeguards that sort of ensure that the volunteer programs aren't being created just to raise money than at the detriment of community impact?

[Jessica Pang Parks]

So I'm actually going to start by quoting one of my mentors. Her name is Erin Spank. She's a thought leader in the space. And she really wants to banish the phrase volunteer program because these are people, right? And yes, volunteers can support your food security program, your mentorship program, your animal fostering program. But what organizations need is to start thinking about volunteer engagement as a strategy, right? We don't have HR programs, we don't have fundraising programs like you might. But really the crux of it, and what really makes an impact is a strategy. And strategy is automatically connected to mission, right? So I'm going to quote my former boss, Christine McKernan, who's now retired fundraiser, and we clicked right away because she's like, Jessica, volunteer engagement is not a make work project. Just create volunteer roles and experiences to give people something to do in the hopes that they will raise money with you.

[Co-Host]

Right?

[Jessica Pang Parks]

Share your messaging, raise awareness, all of that stuff. So I really think nonprofits need to ask themselves these questions first. One is, will volunteers be adding value to what they do? What kind of unique skills and experiences do they bring? And this can be lived experience, right? As someone who's been a patient, a caregiver, a member of the community. And how can volunteers provide the depth of relationship that staff might not have time for? So someone who's a registered nurse in a hospital may not have time to have a conversation with a patient and get to know their family and understand and maybe even speak the language that they are most comfortable speaking. But someone who is a volunteer can offer that service. And what I really want nonprofits to know is we need to stop thinking of volunteers as just a way to save money.

[Host]

Okay, tell me more about what you mean by that.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

So there is something called like the wage replacement rate around volunteerism, and I personally am not for it. Because first of all, it whittles down volunteers to just numbers, right? That's all about output. It's not about impact. And are you saying that a volunteer who comes in, nurtures a young person and really makes that critical difference in their life is as valuable as someone. The wage replacement rate is exactly the same as someone who hands out water bottles at the fun run, Right? And it's not that fun run volunteer wasn't needed. But it's also like, you gotta look at your mission. You gotta look the impact that volunteers actually have. And I really encourage folks to look at. Sue Carter calls work on this. She has written an entire PhD thesis about how we can measure volunteer impact beyond the number of volunteers and the number of hours. And it's so important for organizations and funders and donors to understand that it volunteers have inherent value. I teach a course on volunteer engagement here in Canada, and I ask my students every semester, would your organization involve volunteers if they had all the money in the world to hire staff? And most of them say yes, because there is an inherent value. There is something about out that magic that they bring of. They don't have to be there. They're choosing to be there and sharing those other four T's of giving.

[Co-Host]

Right?

[Jessica Pang Parks]

Because I know fundraisers you thinking about treasure, but let's talk about time, talent, ties, and testimony. And without those four T's, it's really hard to get the treasure.

[Host]

So. Okay. I so appreciate everything that you're saying here. And I'm. I'm trying to think about this and process this in relationship to. I'm trying to, like, tease out that value piece. Thinking about it actually, in terms of corporate social responsibility. And this is kind of a weird bridge, right? Because it's almost like the flip of what you're talking about, right? Is that. So I am so guilty of this. So I will speak from my own perspective, and I know that I'm not alone. Where I was trying to build a fundraising relationship with a company, and it felt like the easiest pathway in was through. I know we're laughing at that.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

That's okay.

[Host]

It felt like the easiest pathway in, right. Was through the CSR department where they were looking for volunteer opportunities. And I had a program where we could easily create those volunteer opportunities. And it wasn't the things that we were asking people to do. It wasn't valuable around the work that they were doing. It was valuable to have volunteers in those roles. It was special, the exchange that was happening. But if I was being honest, it would have Been a lot less capacity for me for the organization to get volunteers elsewhere. Right. In the school where the school gardens were, we had plenty of students who wanted to do those things. And so the creation of that, and I hear you around the no volunteers program, but we're going to go back to when I was using dirt like that to say, like, the creation and sort of curation of that volunteer workday for that company, which also had a lot of value to that company. Oftentimes I found that companies were asking me for those things, but not attributing any value to that experience either. And so this is where like, I feel this complication sort of like in my heart and head around, like, yes, I love what you're saying around how do we value volunteers and how do we think about that in terms of all of the T's and all of this sort of like, deeper connection? And I'm thinking about sitting on the other side too, and like how we navigate and have those conversations with other entities that might have a lot of the T treasure. And we want them to also value the experience that they're having with us.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

Yeah, I love that question and I totally get it, because we live in this world like capitalism, basically, right? Like, this is the system we live in, and unfortunately, we have to operate within it to do our work.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

So let me give you a few examples of alternatives that I'd like to encourage corporate giving folks to offer on that menu instead of kind of that team volunteering day, right, to come and sort food or paint the wall or garden or whatever, right? So one example I'll give is I was speaking to a colleague who works at a hospital foundation, and they have partnered with one of the banks that has multiple branches in their city and that bank. So one of the ways that this hospital foundation raises money and supports the community is they have a cafe within the hospital, right? And that cafe is staffed by volunteers. So what this bank has done is once a week, an employee or a pair of employees will come into that cafe four hours at a time. So instead of sending a team of 20 people once a quarter, right. There's ongoing engagement with those bank employees and the organization, and they have that ongoing presence for the hospital community, and they're giving ongoing support to that foundation. So I really love that. And it made it easier for my colleague because it was one shift that they didn't have to worry about. And it was, these are bank employees. They know customer service. They come in, they have some training that they do beforehand on the CAFE practices. But it's pretty much like something that they can do ongoing for years and years. So. And it's really popular. Another thing that I really like is the condiments so of employees with specialized skills. So whether it's it or accounting and giving folks like projects that they can do, right. Maybe it's a nonprofit that needs a video about their services. That's something that a marketing team at a corporate could do.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

And if they're given a timeline, a project plan, they're working together with the nonprofit. That is so meaningful and a longer term, more sustained project rather than something that's a one off. And I also want organizations to think, I mean, obviously I love volunteer engagement my entire career. Corporate engagement is not just volunteer engagement. There is so much that organizations can do. It can be an education session. So I worked at the Heart and Stroke foundation here in Canada. That could be a session where employees learn cpr.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

Maybe they use those CPR skills to do what we call informal volunteering. Informal volunteering is a volunteer role that you don't apply for. It's just about being a good citizen, helping your neighbors. Right. And that could be something like knowing cpr, carrying an Naloxone kit. It can also be something like retweeting information about an organization or raising awareness about something around their mission.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

It could be sending a guest speaker, someone with lived experience to the corporate headquarters to give a talk and engage folks that way. It could be a book club. It could be, let's watch this TED Talk and have a chat about this issue that we're tackling in our community. Whether it's homelessness or it's violence against women, whatever it is.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

And that's another way to engage volunteers, right. From the community to work with the corporate and gives the corporate real value to their employees.

[Host]

Okay. I love the different ways of thinking about this. And one of the things that I really appreciate about it is the nonprofit sort of standing, like asking these really critical questions ahead of time. And as you were saying, things like I felt my own, like, oh, not every company is going to go for that. And it's like, yeah, you're right. And like, that's okay, like asking these questions. If what you're really trying to do is, number one, make sure that these programs are providing real value and feel good to everybody involved, then it really does start with these questions shaping and forming how you design these pieces. So I really appreciate that orientation and I sort of say that to everybody else maybe who is like, yes, Budding it to say, like, yeah. Like, sometimes when we think differently about how we've done things, it means that not every type of partnership or not every type of thing fits anymore. And that's okay because we're making these decisions and these changes based on the priorities of how we're trying to do things moving forward.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

And it's gotta be aligned with mission.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

Like, I'll give you an example that I think fundraisers are really gonna understand. So imagine a corporation comes to you, and you're working for an organization that supports unhoused people. So you make a call out for clothing donations, and a corporation comes to you, and they say, hey, we've got some great clothing donations. We'd love to give them to you. And you're like, okay, what are they? Can you. Can you send me a few samples? And what you get is bikinis and clubwear. Right. It's essentially the same thing. What would you do in that instance? If the corporation is giving you. Is offering something that does not align with your mission.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

And you go to them and you're like, no, we're actually looking for, like, underwear and sweaters and socks. And they're like, yeah, no, no, no. But we really want to give you bikinis and clubware. Like, when you think about it that way, and you equate it to an offer of time and talent.

[Host]

Totally. And you're like, what do you do? Do you, like, open a, like, storage facility for the bikinis? Like. Right, exactly. It makes it very clear.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

Yeah.

[Host]

So there's this other piece I really want to make sure we have time to talk about, because when I was reading about your work, one of the things that I really love was this focus on staff capacity, which you've touched on a little bit in how you've talked about things. But oftentimes, and this happens with fundraising, too, like, I'll get on a call with a potential client, or I'll be with somebody on a alignment fundraising call, and they'll be like, oh, well, a consultant told us, like, the best way to fundraise is, like, blank. And I'm like, okay, like, cool. But you are a team of one, and you're also in charge of the program, and you're also like this. And so, like, is that a good way to fundraise? Absolutely. Does it make any sense for your current capacity? Not at all.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

So.

[Host]

So I'm curious, like, when I saw that on your piece. And just, like, I think that's another thing that often, like, get swept or, like, not centralized enough in the decision making here is like around team capacity. So what are some of the ways you help folks think through their true, real, actual capacity to do certain types of volunteer engagement?

[Jessica Pang Parks]

Yeah, well, the first thing I'm going to do is advocate for my profession because I've been on teams where there are literally hundreds of volun of fundraising professionals and there's me and one other person on the volunteer engagement team. So I want to note two fundraisers that like, don't assume anyone can fill the capacity for engaging volunteers. We actually like have a credential out there. It's called the cva. It's very similar to the Circle cfre.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

There's a credential out there. I teach a college program that teaches these things and it's the same as a fundraiser at someone applying for a fundraiser job and being like, well, I raised a hundred dollars for the fun run from my family and friends, so I know how to raise major gifts. I know how to do legacy giving, I know how to do annual giving, monthly giving, I know how to do direct mail. Like, this is a honed skill set that many of us are really passionate about. And I really encourage. If you have volunteer engagement folks at your organization, have more conversation and connection with them. Because to be very honest, Mallory, I've been treated very poorly five fundraisers in my career. Like calling me up two days before a golf tournament and being like, Jessica, I need 50 volunteers at this golf tournament. And I'd be like, well, this takes like, this is a six week process. Can you start by drafting this volunteer role description? Because a lot of folks in the nonprofit sector have this misconception shift that the first step of volunteer engagement is recruitment. No, the first step is planning and, and mo. And when volunteer engagement is done well, you don't have a volunteer bank. You don't just have frozen volunteers that you can like pull out of your desk drawer and defrost and send to a golf tournament. Like, that doesn't work. If you want people who are the right fit who are going to be there to supplement the staff in stewardy important relationships, you really need to collaborate, genuinely collaborate with and trust volunteer engagement professionals. So that's the first thing I'm going to say. The second thing I'm going to say is really like, I think you saw my video on this because I think you alluded it to. It is yes, volunteer engagement takes money. That's another thing that, that people forget. It's like volunteers aren't free. Volunteer engagement isn't Free. It takes money. Like, you need someone there to put together the processes to plan, recruit, train, orient, onboard, supervise, recognize, and steward. Just like the donor engagement cycle, there is a very, very process driven, but also relationship driven cycle. And it's not easy. So I think that's another thing that folks need to think about. And yes, once you put in the money, there's also time that's involved. So I would say that, like, this is where we need to take a page from our project management colleagues. And really, like, I always recommend a racy chart. Who's responsible, who's accountable, who's consulted, who's informed.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

And how does the fundraising team and the volunteer engagement professionals and marketing and finance and all teams across the organization work together on a project?

[Host]

Okay, okay.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

Whoa.

[Host]

First of all, thank you for sharing about your experience and I'm so sorry to hear how you've been treated in this role and, or like in the role of a volunteer engagement coordinator. And as you were saying it, like, my kind of like, heart sank a little bit around the fact that, like, I can't imagine how hard that was for you to experience and to sort of be treated in that transactional way of like all the things that fundraisers also hate. Right. Like being on the other side of. And it highlights for me the dynamic, like, stress, like the way in which we pass stress to each other. Right. And the, and the like donor that called angry at that fundraiser about the golf tournament just turned into the stress that that fundraiser pushed to you around getting those volunteers to show up. And I'm not excusing that behavior in any way. I'm just sort of seeing how these dynamics, like, just go round and round in these environments driven by these sort of transactional metrics rooted in scarcity, which goes to your point, around, like, these things cost money and why are we doing this in the first place? And so I think it's. Even as you were saying certain things, I was like, wow, that piece around planning, Right. For so many small organizations, this was absolutely true for my organization. That step did not happen. And to your point, we had a program, we had a need for volunteers in that program. And every time we needed those volunteers, we would blast out to our homeless for people to come to this volunteer day. Now, was that an ideal volunteer engagement thing? No. But we were a really small organization where I was the person talking to every donor and to every volunteer and running that garden workday. And so there was none of what you talked about, but there also wasn't nothing because of how small we were. And so one of the things I'm wondering, because I know you work with organizations of all sizes. And so I'm thinking about that really small organization who can't hire a volunteer, like, coordinator yet, who are maybe years away from that, but really do have a great opportunity in their programs to bring volunteers in. They know that those opportunities alone create meaningful experiences. They want to invite their community members in those moments. Like, is that okay? Or are you sort of saying, like, unless you can really go through these steps and do this right, you shouldn't really start it, you shouldn't really do it that way?

[Jessica Pang Parks]

Oh, that's a hard question. Because in Canada, most of the organizations that exist, whether they're grassroots or they're registered, like, they are mostly volunteer run. So I'm talking, like, the working board model of, like, you're the board member, but you're also the person updating the website.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

You're also booking these things.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

So I get it.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

And, like, every organization has volunteers because your board members are volunteers. I really think I'm going to recommend a resource. It actually just came out in November. It's called the Equity in Action Toolkit, and it's free for everyone to go to. Folks should be able to find it on the Volunteer Match website. And it was created by folks who have the CBA credential to really get organizations to think about these questions and think about why they're working with volunteers. And also, just on the language of language, please never say use volunteers. We engage volunteers. They're people. We use things. We do not use people. And I know you've had Brianna Dorales on the show before, and she does a lot of amazing work on this. So, yeah, just really, like, think about equity. And sometimes you do need volunteers. But, like, I wouldn't create volunteer roles because there is that scarcity mindset.

[Co-Host]

Right?

[Jessica Pang Parks]

We lost our funding for this. So let's just make it a volunteer role. Let's make do with that. Volunteers should never replace staff. That is completely unethical. And I think that's why, like, volunteers and staff are sometimes pitted against each other because staff are afraid, hey, if this person with these competencies comes in, I might lose my job because they're willing to do it for free. But that means the volunteer engagement strategy at that organization was poorly designed because volunteers should never replace staff. And as we talk through these power dynamics within teams, I've noticed you said volunteer engagement coordinator multiple times.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

So to be honest, at most organizations, that is the ceiling it's not even a glass ceiling. I've called it an iron ceiling. Right. I made it up to the director level. But I again saw hundreds of roles on the fundraising team being able to move in different parts of fundraising where on my team it was a straight line. And most organizations coordinators, the cutoff specialist is the cutoff.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

And again, volunteer engagement is hard work. It's not just about recruiting. There's an entire cycle very similar to the donor stewardship cycle. And so much of our work is actually project management and influencing without authority. So like, I guess going back to your question, I really think when organizations, those small organizations really need that volunteer support, first of all, trust and transparency with the community.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

Right now we need your support. We would love to hire someone full time to do this work.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

And creating, making sure every role has a role description, making sure there are policies for volunteers, making sure that there are codes of conduct. But with role description, codes of conduct and policies. I had a colleague in HR and they said to me, well, we can just take what we do with staff and copy it over. There's a nuance that's very different with volunteers.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

And again, speaking up for my profession, you can't just take what you have somewhere else and copy it over. There are lots of nuances that there are specialists in this field who know how to do that work. There are great templates out there. The Equity in Action toolkit has some great stuff. My former employer, Volunteer Toronto has some great templates out there. But don't just do that. If everything's going well with hr, you can copy it over for volunteer engagement. Take the time, do the hard work, specializing in that work. Does that make sense?

[Host]

Totally. And I could ask you like 45 more questions about it, but I want to be respectful of your time. And I think folks are going to leave this. I mean, I'm learning a lot. Like I, I feel like this is something I wish I had heard 20 years ago. So I just want to, like I'm in this conversation reflecting on so many things I did wrong or probably inequitably or and didn't even really have any tight like just sort of, it's such a reminder of like the way we can just start to model things after what we think are the good versions of it and find ourselves think that we're doing the quote unquote right thing and because we never took a step back and asked some of these big questions. So I really appreciate you sharing and for advocating. I mean, I feel like, when I started my work, like, in 2021, I felt very much in the seat you're sitting in for fundraisers. Right. Like, I. And feeling like in the organizations, they weren't being advocated for, and they were so siloed and devalued, and everybody was like, well, I'm not a fundraiser. And there was so much stigma around their role and they were ostracized. And so, like, I had a lot of that same passion around, like, hey. And so I think it's really important for fundraisers to hear this and to have this sort of, like, reflection. And I really appreciate you sharing so vulnerably. I want to encourage folks who are, like, leaving this, like, okay, I still have lots of questions, like, where can they go to learn more from you, to stay connected, to work with you, all the things.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

Yeah. So they can go to my website, learnwithjpp.com or they can find me on LinkedIn. And. And I think you're linking to my Instagram, which is also learn with jpp. So, yeah, I really want to have these conversations because, to be honest, I found a lot of great fundraiser allies in the community centric fundraising movement. And just to remind everybody who's familiar with that.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

The value number five of community centric fundraising is time is equally valued as money. So I really think, like, when I have conversations with folks who are connected to that movement and believe in it, they get what I'm saying. And it's okay. We. We all have to learn and grow, and, like, we are part of this system and this sector that is rooted in colonialism and capitalism and patriarchy. So it's not like these harms just come out of nowhere.

[Co-Host]

Right.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

But I think it's really time to start having those uncomfortable conversations. And I'm really thankful that you invited me to have this one with you.

[Host]

Yeah. I mean, I think this brings me back. I don't know why I feel like I'm going to cry right now, but I do.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

Oh, Mallory.

[Host]

No, in a good way. Like, in a good way. I love that I can access my emotions, like, so closely. I'm crying is not a bad thing to me at all, but I think I feel particularly, like, tender around this because it just keeps going back to this thing I always am sitting with, which is like, how are we defining? Like, it works, right? We're like, oh, do this fundraising thing because it works. We do this volunteer thing because it works. And it's like, works because of the system that we live in, because of capitalism, because of patriarchy because of white supremacy culture works is often actually in direct conflict with, like, who we're trying to be and what we're trying to build. And that is such an uncomfortable position to sit in, to, like, feel like the world around you defines works in one way and you exist to try to change that system. And yet everyone is evaluating whether or not your thing works based on that same system. And then for us, we adopt it. And I think what you're asking people to do, which I really value is, is to say, take a step back and, like, redefine. What does it look like for your volunteer engagement, for the volunteer people that you have the opportunity to engage in your organization in these ways? What does it look like? What does it really look like in alignment with your values and in alignment with who you want to be for that strategy or plan to quote, unquote work?

[Jessica Pang Parks]

Yeah, and I don't have all the answers, Mallory. I think, like, we're all navigating this together and I just hope more people come into community with us to have these conversations and to find solutions together and share successes and to celebrate them. So thank you.

[Host]

Yes, my pleasure. Thank you so much again for this conversation and for joining me today.

[Jessica Pang Parks]

Oh, you're very welcome. Take care, Mallory.

[Mallory]

I hope today's episode inspired or challenged you to think differently. For additional takeaways, tips, show notes, and more about our amazing guest and sponsors, head on over to Mallorykson.com podcast. And if you didn't know, hosting this podcast isn't the only thing I do every day. I coach, guide, and help fundraisers and leaders just like you. Inside of my program Program the Power Partners Formula Collective. Inside the program, I share my methods, tools and experiences that have helped me fundraise millions of dollars and feel good about myself in the process. To learn more about how I can help you, visit Malloryerickson.com backslash PowerPartners last but not least, if you enjoyed this episode, I'd love to encourage you to share it with a friend you know would benefit or leave a review. I'm so grateful for all of you and the good, hard work you're doing to make our world a better place. I can't wait to see you in the next episode.