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What the Fundraising
223: Connecting Beyond Email: The Art of Effective Phone Calls in Fundraising with Kel Haney
00:39:55
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- [00:04]
Mallory
GiveButter is a super easy to use, all in one nonprofit fundraising platform that empowers millions of change makers like you to raise more, pay less, and give better. Head to givebutter.com mallory to claim your free account today and get started in minutes.
- [00:25]
Kel
I made over 20,000 calls myself and I raised over $6 million in less eight years over the phone. It was because I was talking about my favorite thing. I didn't have a background in sales. I didn't have a background even in fundraising. But what I did know how to lead with was curiosity and curiosity about others and an excitement and a passion for cultivating community. So I've since reverse engineered why I was so successful at that and figured out how to make that accessible to everyone else.
- [01:00]
Mallory
Hey, my name is Mallory and I'm obsessed with helping leaders in the the nonprofit space raise money and run their organizations differently. What the fundraising is a space for real and raw conversations to both challenge and inspire you. Not too long ago, I was in your shoes, uncomfortable with fundraising and unsure of my place in this sector. It wasn't until I started to listen to other experts outside of the fundraising space that I was able to shift my mindset and ultimately shift the way I show up as a leader. This podcast is my way of blending professional and personal development so we, as a collective inside the nonprofit sector can feel good about the work we are doing. Join me every week as I interview some of the brightest minds in the personal and professional development space to help you fundamentally change the way you lead and fundraise. I hope you enjoy this episode, so let's dive in.
- [01:54]
Welcome everyone. I am so excited to be here today with Kel Amy. Kel, welcome to Wet the Fundraising.
- [02:00]
Kel
Oh my gosh. I'm so excited to be here. Mallory. Thank you.
- [02:03]
Mallory
I'm stoked to be having this conversation with you because I feel like we are going to have the conversation that nobody wants to hear and love it. So, fundraisers, we're going to talk about phone calls and I need you to stick with us, okay? Because I know that this topic can be uncomfortable. You might feel that in your body you might want to hang up this podcast. You might want to run to something that feels a little bit better initially. But calling donors, calling community members, all those things are so important for so many reasons. And Kel, you have a really cool way of thinking about this and supporting people around it. So tell everyone just to kick us off a little bit about you, about your work and fundraisers. This is a real gift for you.
- [02:51]
Kel
I love it, Mallory. I mean, firstly, I want to say thank you for addressing the elephant in the room immediately. My catchphrase is taking the ick out of the ask. So I am all about, let's just get right to it, and why does this feel uncomfortable? And why? And like you said, like, where is it in your body? What is that? What are your money mindset? What is that one time that somebody called you or you called someone and you got the ick and why? And really kind of going back to that. So just like you, I'm an accidental fundraiser. So I'm coming from this. With a background as a theater director, I was an artist. So I moved to New York two weeks after I graduated from college. I thought I was going to be there for three months. Then I read a play. I thought this particular play should win the Pulitzer, it should move to Broadway. It made me fall in love with new American plays. So I wanted to stay at that theater, Manhattan Theater Club. That play was a play by John Patrick Shanley called Doubt. It did win the Pulitzer. It did move to Broadway. It was made into a movie with Meryl Streep and the late Philip Seymour Hoffman and Amy Adams. And it was really formative to me that what I really loved was new American plays. So won't come as a surprise to your audience, but theater directors. I needed to do something to supplement my income, so I started fundraising over the phone for this theater because I loved it so much, and that's what I was doing at night. It was my quote, unquote, survival job, right? So I was doing that, and I made over 20,000 calls myself, and I raised over $6 million in less than eight years over the phone. And it was because I was talking about my favorite thing. I didn't have a background in sales. I didn't have a background even in fundraising. But what I did know how to lead with was curiosity and curiosity about others and an excitement and a passion for cultivating community. So I've since reverse engineered why I was so successful at that and figured out how to make that accessible to everyone else.
- [04:49]
Mallory
Okay, we're gonna dig into this. First of all, I love the reverse engineering. That's so much how I found myself in this role. I was like, okay, I found something that works, that feels all these things, like, why? What's happening here? And then just that curiosity around sort of figuring it out. So I love that. I'm also actually like. You talk about this five minute phone call, right? And so that has been in my mind as we've been entering this conversation. And then I hear the word curiosity, which to me is a word that I usually equate with sort of a depth or length of engagement. And so I'm like, oh, okay, I want to know how do you get curious in five minutes? Tell us a little bit about this framework of yours.
- [05:29]
Kel
Yeah, absolutely. So the way I think about this framework is I think about the phone conversation as a tent. And when I say tent, I don't mean the kind that you take camping. I mean the kind that maybe you have been to a reunion or a graduation party or in my case a more DIY than we expected wedding on an island in Maine that we had. So I frequently in training show the pictures of myself and my husband and our community actually putting up our tent. So what I love about tents is that there aren't doors, there aren't windows. People can come and go whenever they want. So I like this idea that we're calling our community members into the tent, further into conversation with us and our not for profit. Okay, so then I have four tent poles that hold up that tent. So the idea is that you're going to have a conversation in that five minutes, just like you would with like the pleasant person who's checking you out at Trader Joe's or if you're at the park with your kids or your dog. The idea is that it should feel synchronistic and it should feel organic. And what allows that to happen is that you always know which of these next tent poles you're going to. So the first tent pole is the first 15 seconds. And what I say, Mallory, is that you're going to introduce yourself immediately and say how you know that person is connected already to your community. Thank them for how they're already associated with your community. Let them know you're probably fundraising. Maybe you're just making a thank you call and you're also going to end that 15 seconds asking a curious question, ideally an open ended question. And so I don't mean that as like some kind of icky, just warm somebody up to ask them for money. I mean genuinely to say, hey, you've been giving to our organization for 10 years. We've actually never spoken. I'd love to know what keeps you here, or it looks like your last gift. Thank you so much. Was your first gift. I'd love to know like what brought you in in the first place. We're sending these emails we're really proud of. Are you actually reading them? So it's a Great moment to actually gather legit qualitative research, voice to voice. So that's how it starts in terms of being curious is just having that baked in, just in the first 15 seconds. And that, like, it only works if the fundraiser's actually really curious about that question, that it's not just a scripted line. You have to actually be curious and actually want to know.
- [07:48]
Mallory
Okay, so that is exactly where I was going. Right. Because you're familiar with my work. And I talk a lot about kind of what happens in our brain and body when we're in stress, when we're in scarcity. And that curiosity, right, is like, we can manufacture it, but that doesn't feel good. Right. Like, exactly to your point, we can have that question in a script, but it doesn't sound the same. It doesn't feel the same to us, to the other person, if it's actually not grounded in intention. And I talk about, like, alignment can be a strategy, but really what we want is alignment as an intention. And then that changes all of these pieces. So I want to get more into the actual call and the other. I love that tent pole example and those pillars or polls. But before that, what does it take? Like, I'm sure you work with fundraisers who are exhausted and burnt out, and the last thing they want to do is pick up a phone. So what do you do? Not just to sort of get them over the metaphorical hurdle of taking on a task, but literally picking up that phone, dialing the number, and pressing the button.
- [09:01]
Kel
Yes. That's such a good question. So part of it is that most people are curious about my work, which is what brings them to me in the first place. Or maybe it's that there's somebody else at their organization that's like, here's a skill you'd really like to learn. So I always say, first and foremost, there has to be some curiosity about getting on the phone in order to have that buy in. It is very hard to do this if I can't get somebody who's actually already curious and wants to connect in that way. So a lot of questions, a lot of the things I go into are like, truly mindset of, like, what about this feels uncomfortable to you? And part of that is, from my theater background, is the way I always looked at it when I was a theater director, is that I like to think that I was laying breadcrumbs for the actors, that maybe they would find the breadcrumbs on their journey, maybe they would find a whole other journey that was different than mine. And that was always very exciting, especially when I was younger and I was working with actors who had a lot more life experience. I could intellectually understand what their life experience was, but it was nothing like my lived experience. And so I always loved the idea that I was putting down breadcrumbs. And part of my training is that we're going to figure out what is each of our own superpowers, what makes each of us unique, what makes them feel empowered about getting on these calls. So what are they excited to ask? What are they excited to share? So some of it is just truly the start with why this organization, why this work, Getting clear about that for ourselves, and to understand. I think a lot of the times not for profit professionals feel like they need to hide behind the organization as opposed to lead with who they are. So, for instance, in that first 15 seconds, I say share your name and also what your title is. Like, that means a lot to that person on the other end of the phone. You might think, oh, it doesn't really mean much, or maybe you think it means a lot, but that means a lot to the person you're calling for them to understand how embedded you are in that organization. So it's a lot of conversation and a lot of coaching and really individual in terms of. Sometimes it's just as simple as, here's some thoughts I want you to go think about and or go journal on your own. And I'm just kind of laying that groundwork for them to do that. Own their own thought process. And then sometimes we've been working together weeks, months, even years later, and they'll say, you know what, Kel? I was thinking about my money mindset, or I was thinking about, like, why I get the ick about X, Y, Z. And it was reminding me of that one time. That is an example in my own life, texting with a used car salesman who wasn't hearing me at all. And I know that for myself, one of my triggers is if I don't feel heard, like, that's a moment that I shut down, that I get defensive. And so people getting clear about that for themselves, of what are those moments when we can't bring our full selves, when we don't feel safe, we don't feel vulnerable, feel like we can be vulnerable. How to lead from that place.
- [11:49]
Mallory
Okay, I have so many different questions. Also, I talk about the car salesperson, like, similarities in my work a lot. And, like, why is it that car sales people in general, like, why do we feel like we have to do so much research about cars before we walk into a dealership because we believe that the car salesperson is going to try to sell us the car whether or not it's the right car for us.
- [12:10]
Kel
Yeah.
- [12:11]
Mallory
And so in there with our boundaries up and our information and we don't feel like they're partners with us or okay if the breadcrumbs lead us somewhere else. And so there's just so much alignment in everything that you're saying. I don't know how much of the tent poles you want to share and I don't want to ask you to give away like your full method.
- [12:29]
Kel
Oh, my goodness. Valerie. Mallory. I share that with everybody all the time. I mean, I am all about being an open book. So temple number one, that's the first 15 seconds. That's when you're building trust and rapport with a community member. So to me, I take a lot of inspiration from Malcolm Gladwell and Blink and the idea that we are all marketed to a million times a day, literally, and that we need to make split second decisions all the time about who do we trust, why do we trust them? And so that's a moment that I am really specific about messaging that I recommend and it's about being very front footed, not me saying, ring, ring, ring. Hi, am I speaking with Mallory? Hi, Mallory, this is Kel. I'm the executive director of Organization xyz. How are you today? Is this an okay time to talk? That's a lot of lag time. That gives your brain a lot of time to write your own narrative of am I speaking to a scammer? Am I speaking to a telemarketer? Is this even a human being? Or am I speaking with AI right now? Supposed if I just called you and said, hi, Mallory, my name is Kel, I'm the executive director, Organization xyz. You're so lovely. You made a gift end of last calendar year. We didn't get one this year. No worries. But we are missing you. And I just wanted to check in and see if you've been seeing our emails, see if you'd thought about coming to the event that we're having next month. And I just want to check in in a larger sense. So I said a lot in 15 seconds. And frequently people say, wait, where are you from again? But at least they know I'm leading from a place of vulnerability and I'm leading from a place of transparency. Exactly like what this call is going to be about. So just trying to lay as much out as possible in 15 seconds as we can. So that's tempo number one. Tent pole number two is the main event. So in the main event we're calling the community member further into our organization. It's a great time to share things that you're excited about. It's a good time to share. Obviously, if you've got any community way that they can be involved right now, invite them in to that event that you're having in person. Tell them about that win, tell them about that grant, tell them about how you ended your fiscal year and how great that felt. I also think it's a good moment to share talking about shifts in leadership. I think we're so afraid to pull back the curtain and talk about just how much turnover there is in our sector and I want us to share that with the rest of our community more. So I think it's a good moment to talk about that and yeah, whatever you're excited about. So you could have like four, six things, thinking you're going to maybe mention one or two depending on where the conversation goes. And what I always recommend is that third, if you are making an active ask on this call, is that you're sharing what's going on with your organization in terms of your fundraising. Because I'm all about putting fundraising front and center as something that is. It's just part of what our organizations are doing in order to function. I want to normalize everybody talking about it. I want everyone in the organization to always know, here's what we're doing right now in terms of our fundraising, here's what we're raising money for, here's how far we are, how far we have to go. I'd like for everyone involved with an organization to be conversant on what's happening with fundraising at all times. So if you're just talking about it, as in like this is just one other thing that's happening at our organization, it tees you up really well for tent pole number three, which is the actual ask. And in that moment I recommend a specific numerical ask. So thanking them for staying on the phone, maybe reminding them of what they gave last time, potentially saying, I'm going to shoot for the moon, suggest a 50% increase of what they did last time and just making it open ended. So again to your work. I feel like what I see a lot is everybody's nervous system gets engaged, right? And so you've got the fundraiser who's so nervous, who brings this into a binary. Is this a yes or no? And inadvertently puts that Community member in a corner, and it's like, okay, blinders are on. Just tell me, is it yes or no? I can handle it. I can handle it. Yes or no. And you've, like, backed them into the corner, maybe it's like ripping off of a Band Aid. So I'm recommending in that moment that instead you're doing what you can to, like, be in touch with your own breathing, slow down a little bit, and truly make it an offering and a volleying. I think you say offering too, and volley to the other person. I'm gonna shoot for the moon. You were great. You did a thousand dollars at the end of 2023. We ended up not getting you involved at the end of 2024, but just want to see. Mallory, if there's a world in which you could do a gift of fifteen hundred dollars to us today and be curious, take a deep breath, sip of your water, whatever that is, but that it's truly a volley and that it's a next bit of conversation. So a true curiosity to see how they answer from there.
- [17:14]
Mallory
Okay, I love that. And you're bringing up this piece around permission that I think about a lot. So I interviewed this guy who was the head of the Fear Research Lab at Wayne State and wrote the book Afraid. And so I was asking him, I was like, okay, what are things that we can do to, like, actually reduce our biological, like, fear response? And one of the things that he talked about is knowledge. And the way he talked about it on the episode, I can't remember the exact quote, but when he was talking about it, what it made me realize was it's not just knowledge, like researching something till we're blue in the face and never actually take action, but if we can give ourselves these tiny bits of knowledge in an interaction, it reduces our sort of fear of uncertainty around the next step that we're taking. And so when he said on the call, I was like, ooh, this is why I always recommend people sort of talk, like, ask, have these gates of permission. Right. Can I tell you a little bit more? Do you want to hear about that? Would you be open to discussing this or. And I hear that in the nuance of the language that you're talking about here.
- [18:19]
Kel
Yeah. And I think what I recommend, and part of it is specifically because this is over the phone, as opposed to in person, it's slightly different. So what I'm always recommending, as opposed to just coming out and asking for permission, that what we're doing in every stage of the call is outlining what we're going to do next as opposed to asking. And that's specifically what I designed for the phone. Because otherwise it's just so easy to not have buy in when somebody is picking up the phone to just be like, nevermind, click. So it's a little different is what I recommend. But it has exactly that same spirit of that's why saying like, here's what we're doing and sharing with it. I mean like, what do you think? What's your initial impulse? And I do find that what I always train is that it's about building relationship and it's not about whether or not this person says yes or no on this call. And so if the whole call is structured in that way, because sometimes people will try to have a gotcha moment and they'll say, I know what you're doing, Kel, you're calling, you're asking me for money. Like that's what this call's about. And it's like, well, we are a not for profit and you have donated in the past. Obviously we'd love for you to get involved, but truly I'm more interested in how can we engage you as a community member and see if that leads to further philanthropic engagement on your end. And so there's just always a way to counterbalance that and to just say, yeah, I mean, yes, we are not for profit. We would love if you wanted to get involved philanthropically, but it's also fine to not.
- [19:49]
Mallory
What I was trying to say is that I think the way that you walk through that is another way of asking for permission. Right. You're just doing it like through because it's different than when you're sitting down and you're trying to walk someone towards a million dollar gift.
- [20:02]
Kel
Right, exactly.
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Mallory
That requires multiple meetings and multiple stages of that conversation. You are talking about this consolidated way of essentially in each of these polls getting permission in this other way of moving to the next poll. And so I just wanted people to sort of like see that in that language in the way you phrased those things. I feel like because you're right, people can just hang up the phone.
- [20:26]
Kel
Exactly.
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Mallory
And so if you lay out what's happening next and they stay, that's a form of permission.
- [20:31]
Kel
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I think you're also making a good point. I have found that these calls work specifically well for mid level donors and mid level ask. And I mean part of the reason is because exactly what you just outlined, if we're talking about developing a major gifts relationship that Is permission based in a more traditional way, that is having multiple meetings. Obviously no one should ever be surprised by an ask, even in a five minute phone call. But I do find that it works really well for Mid level because they need something that is specifically to engage them. We don't have the time, energy, resources to meet all those people face to face. They need something more specific than like very like amazing digital segmentation that so many of our colleagues do so well. That works so great for grassroots and for monthly donors. But mid level needs something else. And that's where I find that these phone calls, you can do a lot in five minutes, you can learn a lot. And the qualitative research is a really big component of that. So I spent a lot of time talking about what can happen when you just say, what's your initial thought on that? Or would love to hear what you think. You can also just put out that number depending on your comfortability. And number three, so there's a lot of different ways we can obviously dig further into that. But just to your point of going to tent pole number four, that's the wrap up. And so it's, that's a moment that you're going to share gratitude whether or not that person has decided to donate or not in the moment. It's also a great moment for CRM cleanup. Just a really good moment to just double check. Do we have the right email address? Are we spelling your partner's name correctly? Is this the best phone number? Is there another phone number? Have you moved? Do you want a different address? So it's a great moment to make sure we got the right contact information. And then it's really important that they know the next time that our organization is going to be in contact with them. So whether that's us giving them a call in another six months to check in, or if there's not that bandwidth to say we're going to make sure you're on the email list or I love the idea of, oh, we talked about that video that we made. I'm just going to send it to you so you've got it at the top of your inbox. That they always know that this isn't the end of the conversation. So whether they have donated or not, to know that we're going to continue to stay in conversation with them and continue to build the relationship towards larger community building.
- [22:53]
Mallory
GiveButter is a super easy to use, all in one nonprofit fundraising platform that empowers millions of change makers like you to raise more, pay less and Give better nonprofits use GiveButter to bring together multiple categories of tools including including mobile friendly donation forms, fundraising campaigns, events, auctions, email marketing, a built in CRM, and so much more. And the best part, thanks to a 100% transparent tip or fee model, GiveButter's core fundraising features are free no matter how many contacts you have. Head to givebutter.com mallory to sign up for your free account today and get started in minutes.
- [23:37]
Okay. I love all of that. Can we do something a little fun? Do you have a few extra minutes?
- [23:42]
Kel
Yeah, I got you.
- [23:44]
Mallory
Can we play a little like yeah, but game like can I be the fundraiser? Objections and then you can hit me.
- [23:51]
Kel
With the truth all the time. I do that. I do it. Like that truly becomes part of the fun of it. I'm like, I have heard everything. Nothing can scare me. Nothing is going to hurt my feelings. Like, what are truly the things that you're afraid people are going to say or you think might happen? So yeah, I'll follow you.
- [24:09]
Mallory
We can play that one. But I want to get imagining I'm the fundraiser. So my first. Yeah, but is like nobody picks up their phone anymore.
- [24:17]
Kel
Okay. So nobody picks up their phone anymore. Okay. So part of that is because we think if we just call through our list once we see who picked up the phone. Okay. Chances are that not everybody will pick up the phone the first time we call them. I really recommend that voicemails are such a key component and I recommend that you actually have your bullet points already kind of mapped out as if you were on the phone with them. Especially a time of year where you're in the middle of a fundraiser. Like make a specific numeric ask even on the phone. Like have a call to action on the voicemail. And then you can also say, I'm also going to put this in an email and just pop that at the top of your inbox. I find particular people who are already super engaged with organizations. They are very, very likely with the 12 of the voicemail and the email to respond in kind. And people think it's magic. They're like, oh my gosh, Kel, I asked for fifteen hundred dollars on a voicemail and I sent an email and then they got on the website and they did that. And I was like, yes, because you asked and you were specific about your why you were asking. So that helps. And I will say more than skeptical. I've been doing this almost 20 years. I did not in a million years think we would still be using cell phones. But the fact of the matter is like, that's not going away. We all want to be on a walk and talking to that friend that's across the country. We all have to talk to a doctor, a lawyer, health insurance, on the phones. Like, phones are part of what we do. I love that my phone now gives me a transcription of voicemails. Like, I love getting to see that. So. And I will say this is all part of a multipronged channel. It is not in any way like phone calls work on their own. They need the support of everything else. All the other more like traditional marketing that we talk about, but for that specific segment of mid level, it really is like the key to like getting people back engaged and more engaged in the way that we want them to and to gather the research.
- [26:12]
Mallory
All right, my next Diablo. But I hate getting phone calls.
- [26:18]
Kel
Got it. Talk to me about that. Like, I mean, my next question would be, do you talk to anybody on the phone? Some people do. Some people legit hate phone calls and. Or do you just hate, quote unquote, this kind of call? Which I'm also.
- [26:30]
Mallory
Yeah, I just feel like I hate when people call me out of the blue. So I don't want to call anybody else out of the blue.
- [26:37]
Kel
So part of the reason you hate that is because it's not done well. Because we all have the ick of how many times we talk to people and it's not done well. So again, if you as the fundraiser are calling and you're really specific about your why and you're also respecting that other person, if you hear a baby crying in the background or a dog barking or it sounds like they're in a car. I called somebody like that, a board member, colleague of mine last week and it sounded like he was in his car. And I said, oh, Bob, it sounds like you're in, in your car. Do you mean to call you back? And he was like, no, that's actually a great time for me to talk. Somebody else might say, no, yeah, absolutely, let me call you back. But he picked up his phone. So part of that is like, are they picking up and seeing if this is an okay time to talk to them? But people, I mean, all the surveys that are done, it's something like only 3 of donors say that they like getting phone calls. It's because they're done poorly. If they were done the way that I train and coach people to do it, that number would be a lot higher because it's just truly people connecting with people when it's done well, okay.
- [27:40]
Mallory
But I feel like I'm really bad on the phone and I'm so awkward and I'm better over email.
- [27:48]
Kel
Oh, Mallory. Everyone thinks so many people in not for Profits think they're just better on email. I hear you on that. So what I'd say is part of what we do. And this is so hard because when we're sitting there at our computers, we can get as perfect as possible and make sure we are crafting that perfect email and we are doing everything we can on our end. But when we send out that perfect email, it is a monologue. It's not a dialogue. We're not hearing anything back from that community member. So I want to invite you to be imperfect. I want to invite you to show your seams and show your humanity in a way that is really unique on the phone. And I want to invite you to, as you're making these calls, to actually say it if you're feeling nervous or if you feel like this is the part of your job you don't like, like, tell that person. Heard you say this numerous times. Like, not a fan of. Fake it till you make it. I'm not either. And I'm really like, show your vulnerability. Share your given circumstances. Tell them I'm trying something new. I've never made these calls before. I think I hate them. But I really love my organization and I really want to hear from what you love about this and see if we can get you more engaged. So I say, like, truly show the seams. Tell them that you're uncomfortable. Tell them you're nervous. Tell them you are not sure you like this. It's really leading with humanity and you'll be met with some real support. It's not like you're calling people out of the phone book. I'm only going to recommend that you call people who are already engaged with your organization.
- [29:18]
Mallory
Okay. I did a podcast episode with this woman, Carol Robin, who is one of the co authors of this book, Connect Building Exceptional Relationships. And. And she talks about these six pillars of connection. Like, and one of the pillars is like, letting yourself be fully known so that the other person can be more fully known. Which is kind of like another phrase on that vulnerability piece. And it's so interesting to hear your version. I tell people the same thing when they're asking, face to face too, to be able to say, like, this next part is the part that makes me the most nervous. And I know it's such a sacred and special part of my work because it allows us to do the things here that we both care so deeply about.
- [30:00]
Kel
Yeah.
- [30:01]
Mallory
So. Right. And it's like that piece of, like, letting yourself be seen and making it clear that, like, the moment is tender for you too. Right. That you're not going into that sort of entitled and unfazed and trans. It makes it, like, immediately removes the transactionalness from it because you're no longer some bot, avatar, whatever, saying something. Right. You're like a real feeling, deeply connected person, like, saying, I want to do this together. And I feel nervous about it. And I have. I have found it to be such an amazing practice. I've used it in my fundraising for years and years before I knew the science behind it, because it made me feel more regulated, because it just made me feel better about what I said next. And the thing that I love about that type of language and what you said is that even if the answer is no, or even if the answer is I can't do that this year, like, that moment deepens the connection with that person.
- [31:04]
Kel
Absolutely.
- [31:04]
Mallory
And I think with phone calls, a lot of people's fear is, how does the conversation end? Or, like, what if they can't do the thing I'm asking for? And I think we believe that these moments where maybe there is a second of tension because the donor wishes they could do what you're asking and they can't. And I think for people to know that those moments can actually still end when you do it in the way that you're outlining, can actually still end with the connection between you and that donor being deepened.
- [31:33]
Kel
Absolutely.
- [31:34]
Mallory
No matter what happens at the end of that.
- [31:36]
Kel
Absolutely. And I feel like with my work, I just. We're living in a society that we are just continuing to be more and more isolated from each other. And I really look at this work as an opportunity for micro connections with another human being. And so the other thing I train and I coach on is, like, you see where you are. And this could be a whole other discussion some other day, about challenging conversations with donors, whether that is specifically about your organization or you call them and they are managing health issues or they just lost their partner. I mean, I have had. Slash, my clients have had the most powerful conversations, even in five minutes, with their community, when they feel like they're in a space to hold space and they're in an alignment to hold space for this other person. And if that can be, what happens is that here's two people who are genuinely connecting over something that's important to both of them. That's what's Beautiful. And I have people. I ran a seminar last week, a workshop for the Canadian not for profit colleagues of ours who are dealing with the direct mail situation. And I've gotten back so much feedback of people saying to me, kel, I actually love doing this. I can't believe it. I forgot or I never knew it. But that, like, I actually love connecting with donors on the phone because it is a moment that engages your oxytocin and like a moment of that connection. And that's what it should be. And I will say we didn't really get into too much brain science, but I do think this specific numerical ask and sharing how far you are towards your goal and sharing particular numbers is so important because it gets. Get it done dopamine happening, both for us as the fundraisers and the community members that we're asking. And I've seen the most amazing things happen when people say, wait, how far are you away from your goal? I've watched sometimes someone who's got a donation history of $5,000 hear about what's specifically happening that were $50,000 away and saying, well, I can't do 50, but you know what? I can do $30,000 when there is nothing in that person's giving history that shows that's happening. I have heard $30,000 donations happen over a phone call with a quote unquote mid level person because you're sharing specifically what's happening and engaging their dopamine as well. So going on a little bit of a tangent about that, but no, that.
- [33:57]
Mallory
Is not a tangent on this show, please. But I. There was another episode I did with this woman, I yell it Fischbach. I think she's the one who showed me this research where she talks about the new donors tend to be more inspired by who has already given. Right? They're like, this is how much you've raised so far and who has already given versus your more engaged donors. This sort of mid level want to know what's left, like, what's the gap to close? And that really is what excites them around participation. So I love hearing that.
- [34:30]
Kel
That makes total sense. It's like the bandwagon effect for the new donors. And then people who are already here, it's like, oh, what am I doing that? Like making sure there's space for me too. Sometimes I feel like if we're calling people who have a longer giving history, they're like, oh, do you still need me? Oh, you're so successful. Do you still need me? And that's why? It's just so good, particularly at the beginning of the campaigns, to call those individuals who already have the relationship and help them build right at the beginning of the campaign what's possible.
- [34:59]
Mallory
Yes. Okay. Thank you so much. Maybe the last thing I'll ask for you to leave folks with, other than telling them where they can go to follow you, work with you. All the things for my curious friends out there is it's January when I hope folks are listening to this. They just crossed that December 31st deadline.
- [35:21]
Kel
Amazing.
- [35:22]
Mallory
Hired. They wish they had a longer break.
- [35:24]
Kel
Yeah.
- [35:25]
Mallory
And here they are in 2025. What role does this play in their next step?
- [35:31]
Kel
You can play a few different roles. I would say one thing is like, take the deep breath, like keep it a little bit slower. As long as you can definitely do that. If you're interested in getting on the phones, first and foremost, if you want to just get comfortable, make some thank you calls. And what I actually recommend and what I've started to be doing with some not for profits in January, February, is running seminars where actually teach thank you calls to the whole organization. Because I don't think that should just fall for the development department to have to make thank you calls. And I think it's a good way to like build the whole team and for the whole team to really get clear and specific about their whys. So I don't think thank you calls need to just be the development team. So that's one thing is just engaging your whole organization to actually be the ones that make the thank you calls so you could do that. I'm also very curious. I think it's a fun time to call folks who maybe you thought were going going to donate and didn't donate and find out why. And it might just be simply that they didn't hear from you as soon as they thought they would. Or turns out to the example I used earlier, you're spelling their partner's name wrong every time you send them an acknowledgement letter. And that's enough. But you don't know unless you ask them. So I think it's also a good moment to engage in some conversations that are curious. Be like, we'd love to get you involved. And to your point, Mallory, maybe that's the moment once you've set your goals, I would say first and foremost, really make sure you know what your next year looks like look is looking like and give yourself a really manageable individual giving goal for that first month and maybe make some calls and see if you can talk to some long term supporters who would be game to be part of that like right at the beginning and just get that started. But take it slow and take it gentle but also lead with some real curiosity and some courage in terms of just getting on the phone and trying it like it's not as hard as it feels like before you do it.
- [37:22]
Mallory
I love that. Okay, tell everyone where they can learn more from you and work with you.
- [37:27]
Kel
Sure. So you can hop on my website Kelhaney. Com I'm super easy to find, happy to have a 30 minute discovery call with anyone and talk you through the different ways that I can coach and train your internal team and also the larger outbound fundraising work that I do which is bringing on very part time employees, contractors usually to make some of these calls. We can talk about all the different ways to engage with mid level donors through phone calls. Also, LinkedIn is definitely my social media happy place. So find me Kelhanie on LinkedIn. Let me know if you try any of the things we talked about today. I'd love to hear about it. I'm just really love being engaged with everyone who's curious about phone calls with fundraising.
- [38:09]
Mallory
Amazing. Thank you so much for taking this time and having this conversation with me today. I'm so grateful.
- [38:15]
Kel
Oh thank you. I have so much gratitude for you and your work Mallory and it's really a pleasure to be here with you right now.
- [38:21]
Mallory
Thank you you.
- [38:27]
I hope today's episode inspired or challenged you to think differently. For additional takeaways, tips, show notes and more about our amazing guest and sponsors, head on over to Mallory Erikson.com podcast and if you didn't know, hosting this podcast isn't the only thing I do every day. I coach, guide and help fundraisers and leaders just like you. Inside of my program, the Power Partners Formula Collective. Inside the program, I share my methods, tools and experiences that have helped me fundraise millions of dollars and feel good about myself in the process. To learn more about how I can help you, visit MalloryErickson.com PowerPartners Last but not least, if you enjoyed this episode, I'd love to encourage you to share it with a friend you know would benefit or leave a review. I'm so grateful for all of you and the good hard work you're doing to make our world a better place. I can't wait to see you in the next episode. Fundraising doesn't have to Feel like a Solo battle. My book what the Fundraising Embracing and Enabling the People behind the Purpose offers practical strategies and frameworks to help help you navigate the challenges of fundraising with ease and impact. And with our free discussion guide, you can deepen learning and collaboration with your team or book club ready to transform the way you Fundraise? Head to Mallorykson.combook to order your copy today anywhere books are sold and you can grab the guide there too.