Mallory Erickson (4:00)

Okay, so I love that you said hopeful and optimistic. Not from like a toxic positivity perspective of like, this podcast always has to be cheery because we talked about a lot of hard things and we will too today. But I feel like, you know, your content doesn't shy away from saying the hard things about what's happening inside our sector. And so you're holding that balance. Right. Like, you see, you're letting yourself see, see everything for what it is, but still retain that sort of like hopeful or optimistic perspective. Why is that? Like, what makes you feel the most hopeful?

Christina Martin Kenney (4:36)

You know, I don't think I always had this. I think when I first started posting on LinkedIn, I just felt like this system is so broken and do I even want to still work in the nonprofit space? But the more I talk and the more I talk to people and listen to what they're saying, there are so many people who feel the same way. Yes. But there are also a lot of people who have reached out to me and said, I've never thought about this before. I'm so glad you're bringing light to this. I'm glad you're bringing attention to this. I mean, and I think the reason I'm hopeful, optimistic is because I don't expect the sector to change overnight. Right. I know that this has been a problem that has been around for a lot longer than I've even probably been in the space. But if one person says we need to shift this and their organization is doing better work as a result of that and serving, I don't want to say more people, but serving their constituents or their target population in a way that is better because they've shifted their internal policies and everybody's thriving in their workplace and they're doing better work, then. Then I'm happy. Right. But I don't think it just takes one. I mean, there's tens of thousands of nonprofits. I think there's over a million nonprofits in the US Alone, and so many others elsewhere. But I think in this generation, particularly when it comes to social media, we're not afraid to talk about the things that are wrong and make an effort to try to solve them. And that is something that, you know, 20 years ago, this might have been the case. But if you were a miserable fundraiser, you were just a miserable fundraiser who maybe had a friend who you could commiserate with, but you didn't have communities of people talking about, how do we fix this? And podcasts and, you know, thought pieces. And I think the more we're starting to talk about this, the more people are starting to say, oh, maybe it's not just me. And whether that's the fundraiser who's saying, maybe it's not just me that I'm miserable as a fundraiser, or maybe it's the executive director who's saying, oh, maybe it's not just me who can't keep a fundraiser or the board member or whoever. So I think as we're breaking down, this idea of this is just how it always is, and more people are being open, and even if they're not open, they're hearing this, and they're kind of being made to think about it. I think we will start to see something shift.

Mallory Erickson (7:07)

Yeah. Okay. So it's so interesting, like, what you're talking about, because I agree, like, I think, you know, one of the things that really inhibits any type of progress is isolation. Right. Either people feeling like they're not allowed to talk about a problem or. And not just a problem, but, like, for me, it was a feeling.

Christina Martin Kenney (7:28)

Right.

Mallory Erickson (7:28)

It was the first time I ever said out loud how fundraising made me feel. And when I first started talking about this in 2020, it's really interesting. Things have changed a lot. Like, there was a lot more pushback around. Like, just give fundraisers another template. Stop talking about, like, how they feel fundraising. And, you know, I do think that the pandemic, one of the things that it brought to light were mental health challenges sort of across the board. And though that started to get applied to a lot of different contexts as well, and sort of the environments that create. And I don't mean maybe like, mental wellness and where we don't have access to systems or practices or communities. Where mental wellness is prioritized. And so when I first started talking about my burnout journey or developing chronic pain from fundraising or wanting to throw up before every single donor meeting, you know, there were these people who would sort of, like, loudly tell me to focus on something else. And then a lot of whispers of fundraisers saying, me too, me too.

Mallory Erickson (8:35)

Oh, my gosh, I'm not the only one.

Mallory Erickson (8:37)

Oh, my gosh, I'm not the only one. And honestly, like, the first probably 18 months of talking about what I talk about, like, I mostly faced resistance and a ton of pushback. And no, there was, you know, far from. I mean, it wasn't posting on LinkedIn anyways. But nobody would say it publicly, right? For a long time. But behind the scenes I'd get a dm and I just kept going because I was like, okay, I feel like there's this elephant in the room, and I'm just going to keep talking about it from my own experience, not going to make anybody else talk about it. And, like, but so people feel less alone. And I think, like, what you're talking about is so important because, you know, later I would learn that, like, isolation is actually one of the things that actually exacerbates chronic stress, often leads us to burnout. And so it, like, perpet fuels and perpetuates this whole problem. And what's really cool about what you're saying is it is something we can solve collectively. Right? Like, the more you talk about what you talk about, the more I talk about, like, people feel less isolated just in seeing themselves reflect reflected in that way. So whereas so many of the other things, you know, I feel like I can't reach my hand into every organization and be like, get that thing out of there. But making people feel less alone feels like a way in which we can all support the sector around this.

Christina Martin Kenney (9:57)

Yeah, I agree completely. You know, and I think there's two ways we can look at this, right? We can look at it from a wellness standpoint, and we can also look at it from an organizational point of view. You know, I mean, I started posting on LinkedIn because I felt so profoundly alone. I had been in so many organizations in the Director of Development role, where I was just faced with unrelenting pressure, no support, constantly being a development team of one. And I just remember thinking, maybe I'm not cut out for this. This thing that I've been doing my whole career, this position that I've worked my way up toward, that I feel like I've finally achieved, Maybe I can't hack it. And there was an element of, you know, I was very newly postpartum and I was like, or maybe it's just the hormones talking. But I think it was a lot of it because the first time I wrote a post kind of lamenting the struggles of fundraising, I think Michelle Flores has written a piece called the Fundraiser's Dilemma. And it's just so real, right in this position, you're faced with unrelenting pressure. You're, you feel like you can't do your job. And you can either stay and be miserable, you can leave and hope it's better, or you can become a consultant. And it is just learning that more people are talking about this is really, it's both heartbreaking and refreshing. And I think there are so many ways we can look at this. Like I said, we can look at it from wellness or we can look at it from the organizational lens. I think I just saw LinkedIn for nonprofits posted a video last week that said that the director of development is this one of the seven fastest growing jobs on LinkedIn, like software developers, engineers. Right. Like across the entire platform. And I don't necessarily know that that's a good thing. My first question is how many of those positions are rehiring a director of development who has left and how many of those organizations are hiring a director of development because they think they should, when what they really might need is a stewardship manager or, or somebody to manage and organize their data? Because what happens is I've been the director of development who gets hired to an organization that has, hasn't looked at their data in five years, their donor retention rate is abysmal. And you spend six, seven months cleaning up and organizing data, trying to reconnect and rebuild relationships with donors who have lapsed or disappeared or haven't been talked to in I don't even know how long. And then your one year mark comes up and the question is, well, how much money have you raised? And so I learned that last week and was just, I didn't feel good about that. You know, that it's one of the fastest growing positions in, on the LinkedIn platform as a whole.

Mallory Erickson (13:10)

Yeah, I agree and have a lot of questions about what's driving what's driving that number. And it's interesting, you know, I'm thinking about kind of the two buckets that we put solving this problem in the like wellness, which maybe is more like we think about it through the individual lens versus sort of like the systems or cultural lens. And I'm Thinking about, like, the interconnection of those two things. Like, you know, it's interesting, like, I'm not trained academically in like neuroscience or psychology or anything like that, but that's been sort of my, like, hyper fixation. I say, like, I'm a wannabe behavioral scientist over the last five years and trying to understand, like, how what is happening inside our body really impacts our ability to do anything. And, you know, fundraising being like one example of that. But I'm thinking about positional leadership, for example. Right. So it's like all these systemic or cultural things that require somebody somewhere to get uncomfortable. Right. It's like so much of the lack of systems change that I feel like we see and organizational cultural shifts is because of our inability to manage discomfort and our inability to manage our nervous system in the midst of change. Right. We're like, we are change makers. And yet, like, change naturally dysregulates our nervous system. Right. Our brain does not like it. It goes against everything of our, like, survival instinct. And so knowing that, it doesn't mean like, okay, that means we should never change. But it's like, if we know that and we have tools to deal with that, if we have tools to say, like, okay, this is my brain misfiring, I do actually want to change my organization's culture in this way. It's going to require a level of discomfort that's an expected part of this process. And so I'm constantly kind of grappling, like I was saying before we hit record, like, I never want to over individualize the solution to these problems because I think that puts a very inappropriate burden, additional burden on fundraisers who are also suffering under the system that is creating. That is creating the problem. And I don't want to remove our agency and I don't want to remove, especially for positional leaders, the like, accountability side or the awareness side of the fact that like, they can only create as safe of an environment for their team members as they can create in their own body. What do you think about that?

Christina Martin Kenney (15:41)

Yeah, I love that. I think the wellness piece of this is just so critical because no matter what issue a nonprofit organization is trying to solve, you are trying to help people and do good and make the world better. Yet in so many cases, the people who are doing this work are miserable. And how do you solve that disconnect between an organization that is trying to do good and isn't doing good for its own people? Right. And I think there are so many different lenses that you can look at and Talk about. I think yes, absolutely. We need to talk about the fact that foundations won't pay overhead and you know, as a result, organizations are paying their staff lower wages than they should be. And I also think there's this constant question of should businesses operate more like non profits? Should non profits operate more like businesses? And one thing that I think is really hurting the sector is that non profits have adapted this business. HR sense, right. There is absolutely no reason why anybody, any organization should have three days of bereavement leave and restrict that bereavement leave to specific members of a family. And I use this as a very specific example because it's in, it's the standard. It's not even industry standard. This is just what people do. And non profits that have 10 employees and eight board members. Right. It's, I'm not talking about multi million dollar corporations that have 85 tiers of governance. Why can't we shift something like that? Right. I'm one of those people who had to take three days of bereavement leave and then go back to the office. And my wellbeing immensely suffered because of that. And again, that's just one example. But there are very, very simple, humane operations that we can really try to be leaders in the sector instead of just following this business as usual. And I mean off the top of my head, bereavement leave is the one that I can think of the most. But pto, right? I mean giving more time off professional development, yes, a lot of professional development opportunities cost a lot of money, but there's also a, that don't. Right. And I think that the more we can humanize the sector, the better we will all be. Right. Like let's shift away from some of these corporate for profit, private sector business as usual practices and incorporate some of the humanity that we are trying to invoke in the world into our industry.

Mallory Erickson (18:29)

Okay. There's so much here to unpack and I'm going to try to figure out kind of where we focus. And I really agree. I mean I think a lot of it comes down to even just like asking ourselves, ourselves, like why we're adopting something the way we are and just getting curious around like why we have. Because there are certain areas where I feel like maybe we should be a little bit more like for profits for, in terms of mergers and acquisitions, for example. I really believe in non profits merging together if it would make their operations a lot more sustainable. They're like, you know, like it has to make sense, of course, but like that's a side of the business world that I think we should consider and get more curious around inside the nonprofit sector. And yes, I don't think we should arbitrarily adopt a bunch of policies from anywhere, frankly, without getting curious around, like, why do we have it? Does it have our values and intentions in mind? You know, what. What's the purpose of this in the first place? Now I get it. People are overwhelmed. They're. The HR hat is the 12th hat that they've been asked to put on. They're downloading templates online, and all of a sudden, you know, that becomes policy. But I think you're p pushing an important piece here, which is like, you know, policy or like, those things create culture. And so if we're trying to change culture, we have to be real about. We have to be honest with ourselves about some of the things that might be out of alignment with the culture we say we're trying to create. There's this other thing you said, and maybe I am dropping a bomb that is like too early in our friendship for me to drop, but you said that piece about people suffering and fundraisers suffering in this sector. And the moment you said it, this word came to mind that I say with lot of care and love and self reflection that this was 100% me. But I do think we have, like, a martyrdom problem in our sector. And I absolutely, in my first ed role, was a martyr. And I believed, I think deep down that there was a certain amount of suffering. I don't think I would have used that word, but there was like a certain amount of challenge that validated for me my experience. Experience of like, what I was doing, being hard. And because it was so hard, it was valuable. Like, it was almost like that, the change making. And I actually hear this now that I'm saying this out loud, I hear this from fundraisers that I coach all the time. Their beliefs rooted in hard work, involving suffering. Right. That being good at something or a good leader, like, means that it should be so hard that they are suffering. Right? That sacrifice means they work hard, sacrificing more than they want to. Right. When it comes to perhaps like, what they consider work, life balance or managing being a mom and an executive director, like, and so I think there are these, like, beliefs in us probably, like, both from like capitalism and patriarchy, but then also the nonprofit sector around scarcity and martyrdom and service and sacrifice, that then we get a sense of validation out of our suffering and it creates this loop. What do you think?

Christina Martin Kenney (21:40)

Yeah, well, I mean, it's funny that you caught that word. I do think that people suffer from burnout. It's not a medical condition, right? It can cause medical conditions, but burnout in and of itself is not a medical condition. That being said, I do think that people can suffer from burnout, but it is a. Your point is really valid because.

Mallory Erickson (22:05)

Hey.

Mallory Erickson (22:06)

It'S Mallory, can we be honest? I get the whole get rid of the gala energy, but the thing is, ditching a fundraising event tells me the way you have been running them might have been short sighted. Fundraising events aren't just about raising money. They're about building relationships that sustain your mission long after the event is over. That's why I'm teaming up with GiveButter for a free webinar on March 11th at 2:00pm Eastern Standard Time. All about how to create belonging first events. We're talking real strategies to design experiences that connect people, deepen engagement, and yes, help you hit your fundraising goals too. If you want your next event to leave people feeling inspired and not burn out in the process, then sign up now at givebutter.com back/mallory.

Christina Martin Kenney (22:57)

I have never met anybody in this sector who is not so intrinsically motivated by the work they are doing. I think in order to survive in this space, you have to fundamentally believe that the work you are doing is making a difference. Otherwise it can feel really, really heavy. I remember in an interview one time, a job interview for a development role, somebody said to me, why would you want to fundraise? You're not actually helping people, you're not on the ground doing any of the work. So what motivates you to like come to work every day? And I didn't like that question because without money, organizations cannot achieve their missions. And I also think that it's about building relationships, right? So you might not be directly serving the people that your organization is trying to serve or directly making change, but you're talking to other like minded people who have a passion for solving that issue of the day, right? If you are a good fundraiser who, let's say that you work on climate change and it's something that you're deeply passionate about, you might not be doing the programmatic work, but all of the donors that you're talking to are equally as invested in solving climate change as you are. And that's what's exciting about the fundraising work. And when you feel like you're failing, and I'm going to choose to say struggling this time, but struggling with burnout, it can feel like you're not just failing at your job, it can feel like you're failing this movement that you have been driven to try and solve. Right. I mean, most of the people I know who work in fundraising tend to stay in one lane, right. They've been an arts fundraiser for 15 years. They work in social justice. And not everybody. But when you are so driven by solving a systemic issue and you feel like you're failing at work, you absolutely feel like you're suffering because you feel like you're not doing enough, you're not playing enough of a part that needs to be played or you're failing in trying to solve that issue. And I think that that is just everybody who does this kind of work is so intrinsically motivated to solve an issue.

Mallory Erickson (25:28)

Yeah. So it's interesting. I wasn't just thinking about suffering in terms of burnout. I think I really do feel like fundraisers are suffering just like in their heads and in their, like, I think I feel like the pain and the overwhelm and feel like there is, you know, whether you've made it all the way to burnout or not. Like, I do feel like there is this like, sense of, I don't know, and maybe that's too extreme of a word, but I. And look, my work also sort of positions me to hear all the horror stories in a lot of ways too, right? Like, because I want to talk about fundraisers, about their emotional experience, fundraising, because I believe it's such a big part of the. This puzzle. I hear about it, you know, I remember having a consultant one time telling me, like, like, what are you talking about? Like that they're like, emotional, you know, experience really dictates, like, what they do. You know, I've never had a fundraiser talk to me about how being uncomfortable fundraising. And I was like, in my head, I didn't say this, I just got off the phone quickly. But in my head I was like, yeah, no wonder nobody ever talked to you about that, lady. Like, you just were so disgusting, dismissive of anybody's personal experience. So I say that to say, like, I know that I get bias sort of like there's a bias lens in terms of the amount of information. But I think I do really feel worried about fundraisers inner experience, whether they're classifying it as burnout or not, because I just think there's so much rumination and so much worry and so much, you know, self doubt that is causing like a lot of like, mental suffering in small ways and big ways. And then I think like, when we don't have weight of like getting out of some of those spirals. We just per pet we put that onto somebody else. Right. We perpetuate some of the things. Like I will often say to leaders, like you can only be as like supportive of your fundraisers as you can be of yourself. Like if you think you're going to go out there and like not put pressure on your team and not be super critical of them, but then turn around and be that way to yourself and beat yourself up about every little thing. Like it just doesn't work that way. Or maybe we mask and we do outwardly try to be really supportive and inside we're super resentful. Right. That person got took their PTO and I could never take my pto. Right. And so there's just so much here of this like interconnection between like who we are as people and then the role that plays and the role it can play especially, especially if you're in a position of power, positionally or otherwise, to make change for others.

Christina Martin Kenney (28:10)

Yeah, I mean, I think this is. You're absolutely right. There is. And I think so much of this goes back to the way we're hiring fundraisers. Right. This is something that higher ed gets so Right. Every position is siloed. And I know that silos can be a bad thing, but you have annual giving people and principal gifts people and digital fundraising people and planned giving. Right. There are you stay in your lane. Right. And I know that small nonprofits do not have the luxury of hiring multiple people to do multiple things, but hiring a director of development as a catch all for doing everything is a recipe for burnout. Also, you're just not going to hire. Well, if you are hiring somebody who can be a grant writer and a major gifts officer and an event planner, nobody can do all of those things and do all of them well. And your point about leadership, you know, all of this is just so tied together and it's why I'm so happy that we're talking because it is about wellness. It is about thinking more strategically about who you're hiring, what you're hiring them to do, and what you actually hope they will accomplish. But it is about setting examples of leadership. You know, I remember coming back from maternity leave and my executive director just kept saying, I bet you can't wait to come back. And that could not have been further from the truth. I was not in a good space to come back at all. And that I really think set the stage for a very, very challenging environment where I was under exorbitant pressure. And I think one of the things everybody likes to talk about, building a culture of philanthropy, and nobody actually knows what that means. A culture of philanthropy is not having one fundraiser on your team or even a team of fundraisers who do all of the fundraising and nothing else, and nobody else does any part of it. Right. When you have a fundraiser who is responsible for organizing 100% of your organization's budget, and they're sitting there thinking, if we don't hit our revenue goals, not only can I can lose my job, but everybody on my team could lose their job. You want to talk about pressure that is unrelenting. Right. And nobody should be in that position. Right. But we keep hiring fundraisers, expecting them to create a culture of philanthropy, when really, I think leaders just want people to say that because it looks nice on a job description, when they're not actually looking for a fundraiser who's going to bring program staff into the room with their donors to talk about leading their programs and working with board members to leverage their talents to actually raise money instead of expecting them to just write a big check. Right. And I think so. I think there's this. This is all deeply connected. I think there are too many fundraisers out there who feel like. And not just feel like. I don't even mean this from an emotional standpoint, but are tasked with raising their organization's entire budget, and then on the last day of the fiscal year, it resets at zero, and you're handed with. You may have exceeded your goal. And then because you did well at your job, you're handed a moving target. Right. That becomes even more impossible to hit. You know, I mean, I talk to people and I hear these absolutely crazy stories. I mean, a friend of mine, one of her team members, and she works in higher ed, so these are big numbers. But one of her teammates raised $50 million last year and was laid off because it wasn't the 20% increase that they were expecting from what she had raised the year before. And that is not just a wild, crazy story that is happening to fundraisers all over the world. I mean, I started talking about thinking fundraising is so broken in this country. And then I do HIVE chats, which anybody who's not part of the nonprofit HIVE should be. And I've talked to people in Uganda and the Netherlands and the UK And Canada and France, and they sit there and they say, I thought this was just a Canadian, French, Dutch, Ugandan problem. It's kind of refreshing to hear that it's not Just in this country. And I think again, to, you know, it is both refreshing and deeply alarming.

Mallory Erickson (32:44)

Okay, we are over on time. I want to talk to you forever. We're going to have to do a part two. But I so appreciate everything that you're saying and it's making me think a lot about, like, in my book, I talk about these five elements of fundraising that often lead, like, in terms of our nervous system and brain to chronic stress. And so I talk about, like, pressure, uncertainty, isolation, power dynamics and rejection. And I don't talk about overwork because we talk about that the most. And so I was trying to focus on, like, we can't just solve for the hours that we're working. There's like, we have to talk about these other components. But as you're talking, this piece is coming up for me around, like, sort of this systems map that we need around all of those and other things. Those were just the five I decided to focus on in the book. But, like, there are other things and this sort of systems map around, like, what are all the elements of fundraising that lead to that. That. Right. And so then I think we would see some of what you're saying, which is like, because I think before this conversation I was sort of like, okay, there's like this, this wellness bucket, there's this team culture bucket, there's this systemic, like, non profit sector as a whole bucket. And I was thinking about, like, okay, like, how do we intertwine these things? I was thinking about it more maybe on an organizational level, but actually what I'm starting to wonder as we're talking is like, what if we looked at each piece of what creates those moments, right? Like, even if you did it through some of the stories you're telling, right? And we're like, okay, what are all the factors that created that moment? Right? There are going to be a few individual ones, there are going to be a lot of organizational ones. They're going to be some system ones. And what if we looked at that and then we thought, okay, what are the tools that it would take to actually have that situation never happen again? Like, what would it take for that to never happen again? Then we take another scenario that we keep hearing and we're appalled by and we sort of did the same thing. I feel like we'd start to see this pattern start to show up around the different buckets of change work that needs to happen to really, like, change this industry. And because, yeah, I mean, to me, fundraisers are doing the work, like, they're not on the ground, in the programs. But good fundraising is the work galvanizing support, building community, engaging people in your mission, helping them become advocates for that change in the world. Like, that is the work, you know, and so I want them to feel, like I always say, like, my North Star is improving the lives of fundraisers. And I want them in every part of who they are, to feel, to see that and feel that. That, like, they're not just some necessary evil to do the good work over there. That, like, when fundraising is done right, they're the good work.

Christina Martin Kenney (35:22)

Yes, it's absolutely correct. And I think we need to. What will create the biggest systemic shift is people understanding that fundraising is not about raising money. Yeah, you cannot hire a fundraiser to raise more money. That cannot be your goal. Right. If you say to somebody, why do you need a director of development? And their answer is to raise more money, that's a red flag. Right? Fundraising is about building relationships and connecting people with means to invest in an organization they're, you know, that they're interested in. And, you know, I said one time that one of the biggest problems is that people think of fundraising as a line item expense. It's like an inevitable. We have to have a fundraiser. And that's why you have these. We hired a fundraiser six months ago and they haven't raised their salary back. Right. And I remember posting one time saying, maybe instead of thinking of fundraisers as an expense, we need to think of them as an investment in the organization's mission. But I actually don't even think that's it. I don't think we need to think of fundraisers as an expense or an investment. I think we need to think of them as people. The same way that you think of hiring a good programs person or, you know, a good finance person, you hire somebody who you think can do the job well. And why is it that you know the metrics for fundraisers? We have to stop measuring fundraising staff performance only in the dollar amount that they're raising. It's just not sustainable. You cannot expect somebody. Especially like, I remember one time I was hired as a grant writer, and eight months into the job, I had applied to over $3 million of grants and hadn't heard back from one of them yet. It wasn't. We'd gotten rejections. We had not heard back from one. And I got this question of, we hired you eight months ago. Why haven't you raised any money yet? I said, well, do you know how grant writing works? Do you like, here's my spreadsheet that shows all of the timelines. We will not hear back from the first of these foundations for four more months, and there's just a lack of understanding amongst leaders and boards. And I don't even say that to disparage leaders and boards because we could have a whole other conversation around that. But hiring Your goal in hiring a fundraiser should not simply be to raise more money. Your goal in hiring a fundraiser should be to find somebody who is really passionate about your mission and can galvanize supporters like you said, and bring people to the table who are going to be motivated to give.

Mallory Erickson (38:00)

Yeah, okay, we're going to end on that note. Tell everyone where they can go to follow you, learn more about your work, and work with you.

Christina Martin Kenney (38:08)

Yeah, I am Christina Martin Kenney on LinkedIn and my website is witphilanthropy.com thank.

Mallory Erickson (38:14)

You so much for joining me today.

Christina Martin Kenney (38:17)

Thanks Mallory. This has been great.

Mallory Erickson (38:25)

I hope today's episode inspired or challenged you to think differently. For additional takeaways, tips, show notes and more about our amazing guest and sponsors, head on over to Malloryerickson.com podcast and if you didn't know, hosting this podcast isn't the only thing I do every day. I coach, guide and help fundraisers and leaders just like you. Inside of my program, the Power Partners Formula Collective. Inside the program, I share my methods, tools and experiences that have helped me fundraise millions of dollars and feel good about myself in the process. To learn more about how I can help you, visit MalloryErickson.com PowerPartners Last but not least, if you enjoyed this episode, I'd love to encourage you to to share it with a friend you know would benefit or leave a review. I'm so grateful for all of you and the good hard work you're doing to make our world a better place. I can't wait to see you in the next episode.

Mallory Erickson (39:26)

Fundraising doesn't have to feel like a solo battle. My book what the Fundraising Embracing and Enabling the People behind the Purpose offers practical strategies and frameworks to help you navigate the challenges of fundraising with ease and impact. And with our free discussion guide, you can deepen learning and collaboration with your team or book club ready to transform the way you Fundraise. Head to Mallorykson.combook to order your copy.

Mallory Erickson (39:50)

Today anywhere books are sold and you.

Mallory Erickson (39:52)

Can grab the guide there too.