Podcast Summary: What the Fundraising, Episode 237 – "People First: Rethinking Growth And Retention In Nonprofits With Michelle Flores Vryn and Evan Windlstein"

Release Date: April 29, 2025

Introduction

In Episode 237 of What the Fundraising, host Mallory Erickson engages in a profound discussion with nonprofit experts Michelle Flores Vryn and Evan Windlstein. The episode, titled "People First: Rethinking Growth And Retention In Nonprofits," delves into the critical issues of staff retention, growth opportunities, and systemic challenges within the nonprofit sector. Drawing from recent survey data and personal experiences, the conversation offers actionable insights aimed at transforming organizational practices to foster healthier, more sustainable work environments.

Guests Introduction

Michelle Flores Vryn begins by sharing her extensive background in nonprofit communications and fundraising. As the founder and current organizer of the Community Centric Fundraising (CCF) Texas Chapter and a member of the AFP Global Board of Directors, Michelle brings a wealth of knowledge and a passionate commitment to enhancing nonprofit practices.

Evan Windlstein introduces himself as a seasoned nonprofit professional with over 22 years in the sector, primarily focused on philanthropy and advancement. Serving as the Head of Advancement for Great Montessori School in Houston, Evan complements Michelle's expertise with his dedication to uplifting and critically analyzing nonprofit operations.

The Survey Project: Rethinking Growth and Retention

The heart of the episode centers around a comprehensive survey project led by Michelle and Evan, initiated in response to the heightened focus on staff wellbeing post-pandemic. Recording just before the full 2025 survey results were released, the guests outline the project's genesis and objectives.

Evan explains, “We wanted to see what practitioners would tell us openly, anonymously” (00:00), aiming to gather candid insights without the typical sales pitches associated with consultancy-driven data collection. The initiative successfully amassed responses from hundreds of nonprofit professionals across various roles and experience levels, setting the stage for revealing key trends and challenges within the sector.

Key Findings from the Survey

Michelle presents the striking revelation that “seven in 10 people were considering looking for a new job the following year” in both 2024 and 2025 (05:14). This consistent trend underscores a persistent challenge in nonprofit staff retention. Delving deeper, they identify the top three reasons for this turnover:

1. Excessive Responsibility Without Adequate Support: Employees feel overwhelmed by their duties without the necessary support systems to manage their responsibilities effectively.

2. Lack of Clear Growth Pathways: There is a prevailing sentiment of stagnation, with staff unsure about their career advancement or skill development opportunities within their organizations.

3. Unsupportive Management or Executive Leadership: Leadership styles that fail to foster a supportive and encouraging work environment contribute significantly to staff dissatisfaction and departure.

Michelle emphasizes the interconnectedness of these issues, noting, “No one said like, wow, I’ve never heard any of these things before... But I do feel like if we can really hone in on the relationality between these things... it’s almost like not three separate issues” (05:49). This perspective highlights the need for holistic solutions rather than isolated fixes.

Implications for the Nonprofit Sector

The discussion transitions to the broader implications of these findings. Michelle draws a critical link between staff burnout and declining donor engagement, stating, “What a fundraiser feels, there's just no question that that impacts how a donor feels... transactional fundraising is the epitome of the high expectations, not enough support” (08:09). This connection underscores the ripple effect that employee wellbeing has on organizational success and sustainability.

Michelle also challenges the prevailing narrative of resilience, questioning the often-repeated assurance that the sector will "hold on and get through this" without addressing the underlying systemic issues that perpetuate staff dissatisfaction and turnover.

Solutions and Recommendations

Evan and Michelle advocate for a systems thinking approach to address these challenges. Drawing from Peter Senge’s The Fifth Discipline, Evan encourages leaders to identify and understand the patterns and structures that contribute to recurring issues:

“Look at the unique events that happen within any structure... then you can see the structure that makes up a system” (10:32).

Key Recommendations:

1. Revising Job Descriptions: Regularly review and streamline job responsibilities to eliminate tasks that do not serve the individual or the organization. As Evan suggests, “Look for those moments of opportunity with your teams because a healthy staff... leads to healthy relationships with donors” (02:59).

2. Flexible Work Arrangements: Emphasizing the importance of flexibility, both Michelle and Evan highlight that “eight in 10 people said that they’re happy to stay because they have flexibility with their work” (26:36). This includes hybrid or remote work options that accommodate personal life demands without additional financial costs to the organization.

3. Diverse Growth Paths: Recognizing that growth doesn't solely equate to upward promotion, Evan introduces the concepts of "superstars" and "rockstars." Superstars seek traditional career advancement, while rockstars prefer deepening their expertise without taking on managerial roles. Michelle reinforces the need for personalized growth plans, stating, “You have to know people and have deep conversations to understand where is it they really want to go” (24:38).

4. All About Me Template: Implementing tools like the All About Me template, which includes questions about personal preferences and stress responses, can facilitate better understanding and support for staff needs (28:46).

5. Systems Thinking and Purpose Alignment: Both guests advocate for aligning organizational outcomes with deeper purposes. Evan shares an anecdote about budget allocation discrepancies, underscoring the necessity for transparent and purposeful financial planning that reflects organizational values (19:17).

Reflection on Optimism and Opportunities

Despite the concerning statistics, both Michelle and Evan infuse a sense of optimism into the conversation. Michelle points out that the issues identified are not new but have gained visibility, providing an opportunity for meaningful change:

“If these things are correlated, that means that the solution to one can be the solution to the other... how hopeful that is” (08:09).

Evan adds that over half of the surveyed nonprofit professionals are unsure about leaving the sector, indicating a significant window for intervention and improvement.

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a call to action for nonprofit leaders to engage in honest, data-driven conversations about staff wellbeing and organizational practices. Michelle encapsulates the essence of the discussion by emphasizing the need for reimagining systems:

“We literally exist to reimagine them... let's pivot, let's adapt” (32:33).

Evan reinforces the importance of flexibility and proactive management, encouraging leaders to empower their teams through supportive structures and personalized growth opportunities.

Mallory Erickson wraps up the episode by highlighting the value of Michelle and Evan’s insights, urging listeners to connect with them on LinkedIn for further engagement and resources.

Notable Quotes

• Evan Windlstein [00:00]: “Look for those moments of opportunity with your teams because a healthy staff... leads to healthy relationships with donors.”

• Michelle Flores Vryn [05:49]: “No one said like, wow, I’ve never heard any of these things before... But I do feel like if we can really hone in on the relationality between these things... it’s almost like not three separate issues.”

• Michelle Flores Vryn [10:32]: “When we look at the unique events that happen within any structure... then you can see the structure that makes up a system.”

• Evan Windlstein [24:38]: “You have to be willing to have that generative act of listening conversation because there are rock stars and they're superstars.”

• Michelle Flores Vryn [32:33]: “We literally exist to reimagine [systems]... let's pivot, let's adapt.”

Resources and Further Reading

For those interested in exploring the survey findings and additional resources discussed in this episode, visit MalloryErickson.com/Podcast. The website offers full transcripts, downloadable reports, quotes, videos, and tools to implement the strategies discussed.

Final Thoughts

Episode 237 of What the Fundraising serves as a crucial touchpoint for nonprofit leaders seeking to address staff retention and growth challenges. By prioritizing people and adopting a systems thinking approach, organizations can create environments where both employees and donors thrive, ultimately driving greater impact and sustainability in the nonprofit sector.