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What the Fundraising
242: How Nonprofits Can Harness Brand Strategy to Drive Alignment and Action with Bill Cummings & Todd Hiestand
00:37:02
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- [00:00]
Bill Cummings
So we always say as a nonprofit leader, you have to hold the complexity and pass on clarity to people and give them easy on ramps to understand who you are, what you do, why you do it, and then let them self select whether they want to know more. You know, you give them less of a response, there is much more increased likelihood that they're going to say, oh, tell me more about that. But if you dump the complexity on them, very rarely is someone going to say, tell me more. They're going to be like, wow, I'm sorry. Like, hey, I got to go, got to pick up my kid for soccer.
- [00:36]
Mallory Erickson
Hey, my name is Mallory and I'm obsessed with helping leaders in the nonprofit space raise money and run their organizations differently. What the Fundraising is a space for real and raw conversations to both challenge and inspire you. Not too long ago, I was in your shoes, uncomfortable with fundraising and unsure of my place in this sector. It wasn't until I started to listen to other experts outside of the fundraising space that I was able to shift my mindset and ultimately shift the way I show up as a leader. This podcast is my way of blending professional and personal development so we, as a collective inside the nonprofit sector can feel good about the work we are doing. Join me every week as I interview some of the brightest minds in the personal and professional development space to help you fundamentally change the way you lead and fundraise. I hope you enjoy this episode. So let's dive in.
- [01:30]
Todd
Welcome everyone. I am so excited to be here today with my friends Bill Cummings and Todd.
- [01:36]
Mallory Erickson
He stand they are over at Liminal.
- [01:38]
Todd
I'm going to let them introduce themselves, but we got introduced, gosh, only a few months ago now and became very fast friends and they have been helping me build the brand and messaging around. Practivated. And I've just been so blown away by the Liminal team that I wanted to give you guys a chance to meet these amazing guys and learn about branding and messaging and creative work through them. So, okay, I did too much. But Bill, start just tell everybody about you and what brings you to our conversation and then Todd will pass it to you.
- [02:07]
Bill Cummings
Yeah, it's funny that we haven't met, didn't meet until a few months ago because I know we've been in a lot of the same circles, have a lot of the same connections. And I have to say, you know, I was a little starstruck. I was like, are you Mallory Erickson? Oh my God.
- [02:19]
Unnamed Speaker
He says, over there's Mallory Erickson. And I was like, I don't know who that is.
- [02:24]
Bill Cummings
And you thought I was messing with you, like, oh, come on. You're just trying to. I'm gon. I'm sticking with that story. So, yeah, thanks so much for having us on. It's just been a joy to get to know you personally. And again, we've been in the same circles, but to meet in person, it was like instant friend and connection. And so thank you for just, you know, the interactions we've had in the last couple of months. So. Yes, we are liminal. Todd and I both come from the nonprofit space. We like to say that we have 50 years combined of experience in nonprofit leadership. Todd always likes to say I have 45 of those years and he has five. That's not tr.
- [03:03]
Unnamed Speaker
No, it's not true.
- [03:03]
Bill Cummings
It's more split down the middle. It's probably a 60, 40 split, but yep. Nonprofit community development work here in the US and mostly urban centers in the United States. And then international development work. Me and a group of friends founded a nonprofit organization that worked in Guatemala City, serving local leaders who are doing gang prevention and education in an urban settlement community there. And a mutual friend introduced Todd and I back in like, 09, we think it was, maybe. And so we've been really close friends since then. Todd joined the board of that organization. We've worked together in some really neat ways. Five years ago, we founded Liminal as an agency that works exclusively with nonprofit organizations and especially those who work in under resourced communities. And our focus is on branding or strategy, branding and engagement. And we can explain a little bit more later about what that means.
- [03:54]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah, Bill said it all, so I don't need to say too much more. But we've built. Bill's been the messaging branding side of our. And I've been on the web tech side of our work. There's a pretty good Venn diagram that overlaps right in the middle with both of us. And so we've been friends forever, but also we've been business partners for the last five years or so. And, man, the nonprofits we work with are probably the heroes of the show. So talking about us on some level is. Is. Is merely pointing to the nonprofit work that's being done in. In the different spaces around the world, but also the country as well. So we love our work and, man, we couldn't be happier to be in the space we're in.
- [04:27]
Todd
Well, there's so much we could talk about, but I do want to talk a little bit about the name all and how that relates to actually the work that you do. Because I think we're sitting in this moment filled with uncertainty and really unprecedented challenges that nonprofits are facing, and maybe even some, like, very serious identity crises. Organizations of the sector. And I can imagine that for some folks, that might make branding or messaging, like, solidifying those things even harder.
- [05:01]
Bill Cummings
And.
- [05:01]
Todd
And there's something about your work and how you guys talk about this liminal space and how you manage that uncertainty in a creative process that I think brings a lot of clarity in the chaos. And so can you just talk us through that, like, piece of it?
- [05:17]
Bill Cummings
Yeah, yeah. I think for a long time, we've been saying we live in unprecedented time, unprecedented times. And Todd and I are like, man, I think we need to come up with a new word, because we've been saying unprecedented for, like, a.
- [05:29]
Unnamed Speaker
Unprecedented times have become unprecedented in their own way. So it's like it.
- [05:34]
Bill Cummings
But that's the world we live in. And now, you know, in many cases, people's heads are spinning, you know, and they're challenged with what's going on in the world, for sure. But we founded Liminal when it wasn't as unprecedented as it is right now, thinking it was very meaningful name for us, you know, and has a lot of history and, you know, there's a lot that we don't want to get into and where the word is founded. But for some, that word is not familiar to them. Liminal space is the space in between where you are and where you're going. We always say an airport is liminal space. A hallway is liminal space. It's not where you're going, it's where you're going to get you to where you're going. Then we joke that unless you're Tom Hanks in that one movie where he's stuck in the airport forever, you're not going there. It's not a destination, but you're there to get you to where you want to go. And that's really. We're really passionate about that because we've been in the seats of nonprofit leaders. We've been CEOs, chief development officers. You know, we've been board chairs, and we've been on that side of the table. And we believe we gained a lot of expertise around messaging, branding, elevating your organization to cut through the noise and the chaos of what may be going on in the world. Which is more important to be super clear, crystal clear and compelling, related to who you are, what you do, and why you do it. So we love meeting people in that space between where they are, where they want to go and help kind of customize how we can help them. We're not going to be the be all and end all of getting them to where they want to go. But I believe we can really be helpful and strategic in some very discreet areas along those lines.
- [07:15]
Unnamed Speaker
I would say that what's interesting is that so without getting too deep into, like, the liminal theory, there's a whole bunch of source material. If everybody wanted it, we can point to it. But the liminal process is kind of like a separation moment. It's this margin that we're talking about where everything's kind of upside down and then there's like a re entry point or like a reaggregation they talk about in the middle theory. And so branding is kind of its own liminal process. Right. Where you've got an old identity, you're separating from it a little bit. Walking through this rebranding process of, like, reidentifying yourself, and eventually you land on a new identity, and you kind of come out of that process as a new. A new brand, a new message, a new vision of what you want to be. And so, in its own right, like, liminal theory kind of is meaningful to us because it is like this place we're living in constantly. But it's also. The process of rebranding is a liminal process. It is a separation. It's a season of margin and discovery, and then it's a reaggregation back into a new self, which is, I think, a really beautiful view vision of what a rebranding process should be. And it's very holistic. It touches the whole self, like a liminal space where a person touches the whole self. And so does the branding. A branding process for a nonprofit.
- [08:22]
Bill Cummings
It's a whole organization.
- [08:23]
Unnamed Speaker
Whole organization. It's not just a logo. It's not just, like, color scheme.
- [08:26]
Todd
Totally.
- [08:27]
Unnamed Speaker
It's a re messaging. It's a revision of where you want to be. And so that's why we've kind of landed on that word. It just so happens it makes, like, a really cool brand agency name, too.
- [08:37]
Bill Cummings
That's our opinion.
- [08:38]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah.
- [08:39]
Todd
I feel like there's so many misconceptions about what branding is. And, like, and I'm the queen of that, you know, like, I'm like, yeah, yeah, like, give me my logo and my colors, and you're like, no, Mallory, that's not how this works. And I feel like actually walking through the process with all of you. It was almost like strategic planning. Like, it was Sort of like a sped up, really actionable version of strategic planning in my mind. Right. Like, instead of. Because if your messaging is anchored in who you want to be and who you want to reach and how you want to serve them, and then it required, like, it really required me to like, get real about what we were offering, what we were doing. Okay, if this is who we say we are, then what does that mean in terms of how we develop this product, how we, you know, focus on? So talk to me a little bit about that. Like, what. What myths do we need to bust around branding? Because I think if people are stuck in that, like where I was, the colors and logo and stuff like that, they're like, what's the priority there? Whereas what you're really doing is like helping people rebuild in many ways their organization from the core.
- [09:51]
Bill Cummings
Yeah, no, that's interesting that you said core, because that's what we do. Most of our clients are with us for at least a year, and in those early weeks, we. While we can execute on design and updates to websites and delivering one pagers and collateral right away out of the gate. Our strategic work is founded in what, you know, we call core messaging or a brand strategy, which is kind of what you're referring to. And we have a. I don't know if you can add this in the show notes, but I wish we had the diagram that we use. But there's like a three kind of tier, like a core middle and then outer edge of image that we share related to what is branding? Because a lot of people, like, you know, they're like. You like, is it just the logo and the colors and fonts, you know, or we're like, no, it's like your core identity is in that core. It's the messaging. It's the words you use to describe who you are, what you do, why you do it. It's about your brand personality and how you want people to feel when they engage with your brand. It's what you want them to think, what you want them to feel, what you want them to do when they engage with your nonprofit organization. So that's the core. And then that for us informs, then what it looks like, then that informs. What should the colors be? What should the logo look like? What image should it create in people's minds? You know, what impression, like branding is like branding. If you think like branding a cow, you know, or branding an animal, you know, which I don't want to advocate for that, but just like, that's an image in people's Minds. It's like, you know, putting your stamp on it is the messaging. And then again, the next outer core is that like, how does it show up? What does the logo look like? What are the colors? What are the. What's the typography? And then after that, it's like, how then does that show up in the world where you combine the words and the visual identity? So what does it look like on a website? What does it look like in a case for support? You know, what does it look like in a slide deck? You know, what does it look like in, you know, a pitch deck, you know, or, you know, or in your impact report or in anything in one pager or anything you're having to put out in front of people. How does it show up on your social media, et cetera? So I'm doing a lot of the talking. I'll let Todd chime in and add to that.
- [11:58]
Unnamed Speaker
No, I think one of the things that we have conversations with a lot is like, why does that even matter for a nonprofit? Like, we're just doing good stuff. Do we really need, like a polished brand? Do we really even need to worry about our logo? We're not a tech company. We're not like, you know, trying to sell whatever it is that people sell. I could start using analogies, but Bill knows they fall apart really fast. I will quickly stop there. But, like, the question is, why does branding actually matter? And so, you know, one of the anecdotal stories I have is we work with a nonprofit here, and I'm in the Portland area, Oregon, and you know, a good friend of mine ran a nonprofit and high capacity leader. I mean, incredible leader, incredible mission, incredible organization. And their approach was like, we want to make our webs. I went to his website and I was like, dude, you've got to upgrade this a little bit. Because it was just like a 1998 WordPress site, had no content on it at all or a lot of it out of it. And he was like, well, I want to make. I want us to look like we need money. That's why I have it so low key. It's on.
- [12:59]
Bill Cummings
I don't want people to think we have all the money we need.
- [13:01]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah. And I'm like, well, who gets all the money? People who have all the money. Like, if you look at the world, the bigger organizations get the giant donations. Mackenzie Scott gives her money and she looks. Who has capacity to handle this money and who looks like. And it's not just looks like, but also it has the capacity to to do something with meaningful, with this money. And so, I mean, it's not just the money, it's the investment. Right? And so if people are going to invest large amounts of funds or partnership or whatever that looks like into your organization, you need to look like you have your stuff together. And a lot of times nonprofit leaders do have their stuff together, but it just looks like they don't. And so there's a. It's kind of like this mismatch between their capacity and their brand. And so what branding does is it raises, it raises the public's perception of capacity. Even if the capacity is amazing, it raises that perception in a way that people are like, oh, I take you seriously now. And so that nonprofit has partnerships with the largest governmental agencies in the state now. I mean, they went from like 700,000 to like 7 million in the last three years. It's insane. Now Covid, like their capacity affected that. Covid affected that they were positioned correctly in the right time, the right place. But their branding was a significant part of that. And I don't just say that they're not. Their executive director will tell me like, hey, you guys are a significant part of this growth. Not all of it. We're not naive. We don't think that branding is like a band aid you can put on something, but it definitely levels up and equalizes the capacity of the organization.
- [14:26]
Bill Cummings
Can I add to that real quick, Mallory? That like the core messaging is. Isn't just mission, vision, core values, you know, just that high level stuff that's important. We take a deep dive into, again, brand, voice and personality. What's the problem your organization is working to solve and what is your unique solution to that problem?
- [14:45]
Unnamed Speaker
Those are your programs and.
- [14:47]
Bill Cummings
Right. Yeah. What are your programs and how do you talk about those programs? How can you describe. And ideally, if you can narrow it down to three big pro, you may do 10 or 12 things. But if you can narrow it down to three, people will believe that you do those three things really well, rather than believing you do 12 things. Well, if they see 12 things, they might think you're a mile wide, inch deep. But if they say three, they're going to say, wow, this organization is focused on these three key areas so that we have word limits. Like, you need to describe each of those programs in 15 words, you know, for your homepage, you know, and you need to. Then there's room to describe them further. And I like how you're laughing at that. Hey, Mallory, you need to get this down to 15.
- [15:29]
Unnamed Speaker
We're trying. We're getting there.
- [15:30]
Bill Cummings
Yeah, but here's the deal. I mean, like, nonprofit leaders are in their favorite people in the world, number one, because they're doing the work. They're doing vital work in communities all over the world. They're so busy doing the work that they don't often don't talk about how they do their work really well because they're so focused on the work itself. And their work is complex. It's multi layered. It's not. There's not a simple solution, but you still need to tell, let people know that you have a very distinct solution because it's so complex. So often when nonprofit leaders get asked what their organization does, they dump the complexity that they carry onto a potential donor, and then that donor is asked to hold that complexity and they're looking like, whoa, I wasn't asking for all of that, or I can't even process all of that, or I didn't understand.
- [16:23]
Unnamed Speaker
All the words you used. Like, I don't even know what that word means, right? Because there is. I mean, it's a language in nonprofit space.
- [16:30]
Bill Cummings
So we always say, as a nonprofit leader, you have to hold the complexity and pass on clarity to people and give them easy on ramps to understand who you are, what you do, why you do it, and then let them self select whether they want to know more. You know, you give them less of a response, there is much more increased likelihood that they're going to say, oh, tell me more about that. But if you dump the complexity on them, very rarely is someone going to say, tell me, tell me more. And they're going to be like, wow, I'm sorry, like, hey, I got to go. Got to pick up my kid for soccer, you know, like, you know, yeah, okay.
- [17:05]
Todd
There's so much that you're saying here that was like, so true for me as a nonprofit leader. Like, I think. Which I think is really important for people to hear, right? So often we think what makes us special is that complexity. Right? Like, I remember when I was leading an organization and I thought, like, our model, right? How we ran the program, that's what really made us unique. And so when people would ask about, you know, the program, I got way too into logistics, like things that people didn't care about. And what I didn't know how to do is verbalize how that model made the impact related to what they cared the most about, right? Like, I didn't know how to translate it because I was way too in the weeds of like the difference in the programs. And so I think there's a few things here that you're highlighting that are just so critical. One is that most. A lot of nonprofits that I see, and I do talk about this a lot, actually stay way too high level with their, like, mission and vision so that they sound the same as a million other nonprofits. And I think differentiation right now is one of the. The most critical things a nonprofit can do, because.
- [18:13]
Bill Cummings
Absolutely.
- [18:14]
Todd
Especially as we're seeing this funding landscape change, there are going to be so many organizations saying they're doing the exact same thing, and they're really not. But to a funder and at a high level, it sounds the same.
- [18:25]
Bill Cummings
It's the same.
- [18:26]
Todd
Exactly. And so that is a lot of people are going to lose. Lose funding, I think, because of that, because they aren't being super clear about what they do that is unique and not from the perspective of, like, we're Monday through Friday and 32 schools, and you take this bus here. Like, all the things I thought were, like, differentiating us, that everybody was like, we do not care about that. Mallory.
- [18:49]
Bill Cummings
Yeah.
- [18:49]
Todd
So I think what you're saying is, like, so critical. Like, there needs to be that differentiation. There needs to be the, like, what makes you specifically unique and. But then delivering that message through the lens of what your community members, what funders are able to process.
- [19:06]
Bill Cummings
Yeah, yeah.
- [19:08]
Unnamed Speaker
So as we like to think about that, like, where people are ready to receive the information that. That they need. So, like, there's a book, it's super nerdy. It's called the Pattern Love Language. It's like, that thick, and it's about building houses and homes and stuff, and it talks through, like, the different spaces of a house and how, like, when you enter into a house, it's like, here are the ways. Here's how to make it welcoming. Here's how to make it feel like you. Like you're in the right place. And so when talk about our work, there's often a mismatch between what we're saying and where the person is standing. And so we like to talk about, like, a communication strategy as, like, the sidewalk, the front porch, the living room, and the kitchen table. Right. So some conversations belong at the kitchen table, like your finances, your financial statements. Those are board member conversations, maybe major donor conversations, maybe like grant conversations. Right. Then there's the living room, where it's stories. It's like the complexity of the work. It's where you cry a little bit with your. With your donors and your audience a little bit, and you kind of tell stories and like, it's, it's really the meaty part of the work. And then there's the front porch conversation, which is like, hey, this is what we do. This is how we do it. Here's a little more information. Like, this is like a little bit more than you would get like on the sidewalk, where it's like, hey, what do you do? This is what we do. And then that person can choose to walk into the porch, they can choose to walk further into the living room, they can choose to walk further into the kitchen, right? And so there is this opportunity where nonprofits have of creating spaces for people to belong in their nonprofit community in a way that makes sense for the people. So it's not this coercive, like, funnel of like jamming people closer and closer to the funnel. Because some people don't belong at the kitchen table. Some donors should only be monthly donors at 50 bucks a month. Some donors should be one time donors and Christmas. Some donors should be volunteering at events like. And so it's creating these spaces where you can have conversations that should be happening and they're appropriate for the, the, for the kind of engagement someone's looking for. And they're not like at the sidewalk getting the kitchen table conversation, because they're like, I don't really want that information. That's too much for me to handle right now.
- [21:11]
Todd
But then, like, the consistency between those spaces is really important, right? Because I feel like we've all shown up on a website or at an event or at a doctor's office where we've been like, am I in the right place? Right?
- [21:24]
Bill Cummings
Like, that is the worst feeling.
- [21:25]
Todd
That is the worst feeling. Like, did I click the wrong link? Like, am I in the right zoom room? Like, you know, like. And so I feel like what the, you know, one of your guys, you know, core principles is around that like, consistency piece, right? Which is like, is. Is. Does that front door, does that porch match the house that you walk into?
- [21:45]
Unnamed Speaker
Or all of a sudden do you.
- [21:47]
Todd
Feel like, wait, wait, wait, was that where, you know.
- [21:50]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah. Yeah.
- [21:51]
Bill Cummings
Well, in our experience as a lot of nonprofit founders or executive directors or CEOs are very kind of like type A go getter personalities. And they're kind of like, you know, they're visionaries who are thinking of different things all the time and they, what they do, and often they're giving very different answers, you know, to the question. It's kind of like whatever's top of mind. Oh, this story just happened. Of impact. I gotta tell you that and we'll talk to them and they'll say, I'm just bored about the way I talk about ourselves. I'm just feel like I'm saying the same thing. We're like, no, you have to get over that. You have to keep talking about yourself the same way. Don't just give what's fresh in your mind. Then you start talking inside baseball. You're talking to people about, like, what matters internally in your organization, where again, you got to give people easy on ramps to self select in or out, whether or not they want to know more. So be consistent, be boring in your own head. Because for the people listening aren't bored. They're not. They're not bored because they're not saying it every day like you are. They're hearing it for the first time. So it's kind of like, I know empathy is a buzzword, but it's like. Or can be. But it's an important human trait to have where you kind of put yourself in that person's shoes. And what would I need to hear to understand what we do if I were to hear it for the first time?
- [23:06]
Todd
I've experienced that so much as a speaker. Like, I'll have all these doubts.
- [23:10]
Mallory Erickson
Like, I've done this before.
- [23:12]
Todd
I've said this before. People are going to be so bored. And I'm just like, repetition. Mallory, stay on message. You know, and every time. And then I do it, and it's like, it's a brand new audience. Even people who have come up to me before. It's so interesting. I had an experience recently. I think this applies to nonprofits where somebody heard me speak, had heard me speak at Patagonia like a year before, then heard me speak at a Wyoming foundation conference. Came up to me and was like, I heard you do this session six months ago. I. These were my takeaways from that. I went back and did that. I've seen all this growth in these ways. And now this session, I took away this, this, this, and I'm like, ready to go to it. And so that was even like, I. And I think that's going to be the same for donors with messaging. Sometimes they're going to hear one part of it, sometimes they're going to hear another part of it. But you have to keep saying the same thing.
- [24:00]
Bill Cummings
Yeah, absolutely. And we all were talking a lot.
- [24:03]
Unnamed Speaker
About, it's hard to do. It's. It's like, it's not easy to do. No, it's not easy.
- [24:07]
Bill Cummings
Yeah, we're talking about a lot about that core side of things, the messaging. And like we highly value design. You know, we highly value. We've got people on our team who are. I don't think Jacob would mind if we told him. We said he was a typography nerd but he, he can spot a font like oh, that's such and such. I'm like how did you know that without even looking it up?
- [24:26]
Unnamed Speaker
You know, he said some people lay in bed scrolling tick tock. He lays in bed scrol scrolling looking.
- [24:30]
Bill Cummings
At scrolling through fonts. Typography.
- [24:32]
Unnamed Speaker
That's how he stays awake. He wakes up at 3am it's weird. I don't know he's.
- [24:36]
Bill Cummings
But he's great at color, he's great at all of that stuff. And we value that. We want to show up visually in a way that is powerful. But the core messaging is the foundation for that. And once we finish a core messaging process with clients, they're like, oh my gosh, we needed this so bad. And then it becomes a great 10:12 slide deck for onboarding new staff members, for onboarding new board members because you're, you're able to introduce them into this common language that's. This is how we talk about ourselves. It. And that process ends with. I love this last section we have which just call it lexicon. It's a group of words that you use and words that you avoid. You know, because often we feel like we're being the word police or we'll hear our board members say a word and we're like oh, we don't use that word. Like well have it in your core messaging. And then you can refer back to that instead of feeling like you've got to call them out every time. And then you mentioned strategic planning before. I just wanted to say this as well as I know we're biased about what we do. So we kind of feel like what we do is the most important thing while there's so many more important other. There's so many other important things that organizations need to do as well. But we'll often talk to organizations like oh, we need to go do a strategic plan and then we'll come back to you and we're like, we feel like your core messaging needs to be nailed down as a foundation for your like what are you strategic planning based on? If you haven't even nailed down how you talk about yourselves or your programming isn't even clarified in common language that everybody gets and everybody understands. So that's just something we, we come up against all the time.
- [26:09]
Todd
You know, one of the things that I, like, really appreciate about that and found in my own process with you guys there is that that that's how you create alignment, too. Right? Like, if you're gonna say, this is who you are, this is what you do, that's gonna guide the strategic plan, and it's also gonna identify where there's inconsistency. Like, essentially where you're like, okay, we're trying to say we're. This. We don't do that, you guys.
- [26:36]
Unnamed Speaker
Right? Yeah. Or it's unreasonable for us to expect us to do that, because that's not exactly.
- [26:42]
Todd
Exactly.
- [26:43]
Unnamed Speaker
Because a lot of visionary leaders, like, we should do this, this, this, this, and this. And. And I am the king of, like, adhd, right? So, like, I'm always thinking we should do every other thing that's out there. And sometimes Bill's like, yeah, no, we should just keep on doing the thing that we're doing, should do what we do.
- [26:58]
Todd
And also. Right. And that's the other really cool thing about your work is, like, it requires a level of restraint and clarity.
- [27:05]
Mallory Erickson
Like, I think that.
- [27:06]
Todd
I think that's why I would put it before strategic planning also, and maybe in some cases, in place of it, because I don't necessarily think strategic planning always brings that clarity, and oftentimes I think it brings the, like, too many things. Right. It's like, our strategic plan is to, like, do 45,000 things where it's like, I feel like I was just having a coaching call with somebody where I was like, she was like, well, then we could do this, and then we could do this. And I was like, no, we have to start. We're getting this flow. You are trying to solidify the flow of a presentation that needs to happen. Then you want to add on bells and whistles later. Cool, cool, cool. But, like, right now, this is the core. And I feel like that is what you guys do. And, you know, to the, like, house metaphor before and what you were saying about the visual brand and the, you know, that side of it, it's like, now it's all making sense to me. It's like, of course the messaging stuff has to happen first. First. The identity stuff has to happen first. It's the same with a home. Like, are you a home with kids in it? What's the purpose of your home? Do you entertain? Is it a place for family to gather? Is it. What is, like, all of those things? And, like, you have to decide the identity of your space, and then you can design the home right? And if that home is designed differently than the purpose of the home, then you're in trouble.
- [28:24]
Bill Cummings
It's a miss.
- [28:24]
Unnamed Speaker
You have a. If you have, like, a staircase that has a spiral slide in it, but you're reaching out to, like, a different. Like. Yeah, it's not. If you're not a kid nonprofit, then what's the. Like, I don't know. Yeah, I'm gonna kill the analogy, because that's what I do.
- [28:36]
Bill Cummings
I was like, oh, no, where's this going?
- [28:37]
Unnamed Speaker
Bill's like, stop, Todd.
- [28:39]
Bill Cummings
And I have this joke about his analogies. They break down really quick, like, really early on.
- [28:44]
Unnamed Speaker
So slide, like, oh, no. That's the end of my story.
- [28:50]
Todd
Well, I. But I. I know. Yeah. But to your point. Yes. Like, right. Like, you're not gonna have, like, kid gates and toys everywhere. If you don't have kids in your home, somebody's gonna walk in there and be like, this is creepy. Why do you have this stuff?
- [29:04]
Unnamed Speaker
Right. Yeah.
- [29:06]
Todd
If you have a home with kids, you're probably not going to have, like, glass vases everywhere because they're going to break. Right. And so it's like, you have to know, like, who you are, what's your space for, who belongs there? Who are you? What are you trying to do? Like, and then you can decide all the little pieces based on that. But otherwise you're bound to create inconsistency. Yeah.
- [29:27]
Unnamed Speaker
100% for sure.
- [29:28]
Bill Cummings
And I'm thinking as you're talking, like, I really don't want to make it sound like I'm throwing board members. Members under the bus, because there are great board members out there that are amazing. But often we ask board members to be go to a strategic planning weekend retreat, and we're asking them to help decorate a house. That hasn't even been the purpose of. It hasn't even been set. You know, we're saying, hey, let's strategic plan when some of those same board members that kind of go back to my example earlier. And Todd and I have been both been in that situation where. Where I have a board member standing next to me in my previous work explaining what we do. And I'm like, looking. I'm like, that's really. That's not it. Like, how.
- [30:08]
Unnamed Speaker
Like, I need to do a better job of making sure.
- [30:11]
Bill Cummings
What organization are you talking about? You know, I need to do a better job of training it. But again, nailing down your core messaging and having it be almost like a sacred document internally for your organization, it sets the foundation for this is who we are. And then we always say, hey, you're comms people, you're marketing people. Grant writers should have that document open all the time on their desktop and be copying and pasting out of it, because that helps you to create that consistency. You know, we've had grant writers say to us, oh my gosh, like 50% of my grant applications done, because our core messaging I just copy and pasted in. And then I get into the nitty gritty, you know, details and metrics and data and, you know, nuances of our program and our theory of change and all of those things, you know. But we've got the messaging nailed down.
- [30:57]
Unnamed Speaker
Yeah. I find that we had a conversation with a nonprofit recently where the nonprofit's messaging was all inside of the founder's head. And the comms person who had just joined six weeks ago, he was like, my main job the last six weeks is to figure out what's going on inside that head and try and translate it to. But I have 17 different versions now because incredibly innovative thinker. And I said, you've got to codify that language. Your next six months needs to be extract that knowledge from your founder's head, codify it, and then start doing communications from it. You got how he had to do communications in the process. But there is this idea that codifying that language, I don't blame the board member sometimes because the founder never communicated it. And so the board members or the communications people or the staff people are like, I think this is what we do. This is what he said last week. And so some of the problem is on the founder and some of the challenges on the founder to sit down and say, okay, this is actually what we do, how we do it. And to expect a founder to sit down and write, some of them, they'll write a treatise and some of them won't write anything ever. And so getting an external person in there, whether it's a communications director or a consultant or it's like limo or something that is, is to extract that knowledge, extract that information out of the board member or document it. Yeah, codify it, document it. And then okay, this is, this is it it, you know, and then obviously it can be tweaked and changed over time. Right. It's not codified in like that where it can never be changed. But it's, but it's, it's pretty solid and it's not changing unless there's like serious conversations that happen.
- [32:31]
Bill Cummings
Yeah, almost like board level votes on like, hey, like we can add something to what we do. But we've got to really have hard conversations about whether or not it really fits in and it's timely and it's, it's the right thing for us.
- [32:43]
Todd
Yeah, okay. I know we're at time. I could talk to you guys forever, as you know, because that's what we normally do.
- [32:48]
Bill Cummings
Same here. Let's do it again.
- [32:51]
Todd
Tell everyone where they should go and we'll make sure you can send me the chart that you mentioned. But I think you guys have a really great download also that we want to send people to.
- [33:01]
Bill Cummings
Yeah, yeah, we've got, we've got a free ebook on brand strategy that we can share for sure. That's, we'll add a link to the, to that page on the website. But meetliminal.com is our website and you can find our social handles there as well. And we do like we again, we talked about a lot about core messaging. We designed anything from business cards to billboards, everything in between. But I would just leave people with. If you don't have core messaging nailed down, spend the time. It's going to take time. It'll take work, it'll take time away from what you think you should be doing. But nail down that foundation and then you can build from there. But yeah, we'd love to be available and can get on like a 30 minute free consultation for organizations that are interested in just kicking some things around. And, and you know, we love nonprofit, nonprofit leaders. If it doesn't lead to a sale for us, it doesn't matter. We just love connecting with great people who are doing great work and, and then having them on our radar so we can tell other people about them, you know, as well.
- [33:59]
Todd
Amazing. Thank you both so much. Thanks for joining me. Thanks for all your wisdom and thanks for how generous you are to this sector. Really. I've experienced that firsthand and yeah, I'm just, I'm really grateful for the way you guys show up.
- [34:12]
Unnamed Speaker
Awesome.
- [34:12]
Bill Cummings
Malaria. I really appreciate the time. Yep, appreciate.
- [34:21]
Mallory Erickson
I hope today's episode inspired or challenged you to think differently. For additional takeaways, tips, show notes, and more about our amazing guest and sponsors, head on over to Malloryerickson.com podcast. And if you didn't know, hosting this podcast isn't the only thing I do every day. I coach, guide and help fundraisers and leaders just like you. Inside of my program, the Power Partners Formula Collective. Inside the program, I share my methods, tools and experiences that have helped me fundraise millions of dollars and feel good about myself. In the process to learn more about how I can help you, visit MalloryErickson.com PowerPartners Last but not least, if you enjoyed this episode, I'd love to encourage you to share it with a friend you know would benefit or leave a review. I'm so grateful for all of you and the good hard work you're doing to make our world a better place. I can't wait to see you in the next episode. The question I've been asked the most in the last five years is how do you always know what to say to a donor? And the truth is is because I've navigated donor conversations thousands of times. Unfortunately, I had to learn what to say the hard way. Live with a donor in high stakes conversations. It was uncomfortable, messy, defeating and definitely led me to burnout. I want better for fundraisers which is why I built Practivated, the first AI powered donor conversation simulator built just for fundraisers. With real time feedback, customizable scenarios and coaching from your AI guide Coach Tivi, you can practice donor conversations in a safe, judgment free space. I want to help you build confidence, reduce stress and strengthen donor relationships all at the same time. Are you interested? Book your demo with me Mallory erickson today@practivated.com demo.