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What the Fundraising
248: You Deserve Rest: ADHD, Identity, And The Power Of Self-awareness With Jamie Tworkowski
00:41:04
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- [00:00]
Jamie Tworkowski
I think hoping that. That every individual would have a support system like, that people would have friends, that people would have friends and folks outside of the team, outside of the work, hopefully a therapist or a counselor. But would also that the barriers would be removed, that they could take care of themselves to the best of their ability. Right. So that they are cared for as an individual, as a human. And then it allows them to show up and do the work. But hopefully there's a way and hopefully from that work, even from like the leadership perspective, like to be able to create a space, to create a culture where that is prioritized.
- [00:39]
Mallory Erickson
Hey, my name is Mallory and I'm obsessed with helping leaders in the nonprofit space raise money and run their organizations differently. What the fundraising is a space for real and raw conversations to both challenge and inspire you. Not too long ago, I was in your shoes, uncomfortable with fundraising and unsure of my place in this sector. It wasn't until I started to listen to other experts outside of the fundraising space that I was able to shift my mindset and ultimately shift the way I show up as a leader. This podcast is my way of blending professional and personal development so we, as a collective inside the nonprofit sector can feel good about the work we are doing. Join me every week as I interview some of the brightest minds in the personal and professional development space to help you fundamentally change the way you lead and fundraise. I hope you enjoy this episode. So let's dive in. Foreign so thrilled to be here today, Jamie. I'm so excited to get to have this conversation with you. And now we can see each other a little bigger. We were backstage as little 1 inch people like trying to talk to each other.
- [01:46]
Jamie Tworkowski
You are like 4 inches, maybe 5 inches tall now on my screen, which is a huge improvement.
- [01:54]
Mallory Erickson
Well, I'm so excited to get to have this conversation with you and excited we get to do it on this plan platform. We're talking about helper energy and the title of the session is Big Helper Energy. And one of the things that I have been exploring in my coaching and in my book is the way that being a helper obviously is an incredible part of our identity. And these folks inside the nonprofit sector probably identify really closely with it. And it can be challenging, especially when we're living in a world or a time or a moment where there's so much need and where it feels like we're trying to figure out how to balance our empath nature with our limited amount of maybe personal resources or time. We'll get into all the different things. But I'd love to just sort of hear about your own journey with that, founding the organization and just doing so much for so many people around, really vulnerable, like high need challenges. Like, what has that experience been like for you?
- [03:02]
Jamie Tworkowski
Yeah. First off, it's good to see you again. And I like your sweater. We. I liked your sweater the other day. I like this one. Happy to be here with you. Happy to be here with everyone who's tuning in. Happy to be back at the summit. I grew up a sensitive kid, you know, so I think I've learned over the years not to just start with founding an organization. But obviously there's. There were a lot of dots that connected that. That kind of made to write Love on Our Arms make sense. So, yeah, I think I just grew up with really loving parents and a loving home, and it just. Yeah, I think there were some signs that I was around or I grew up under people who cared about people. Grew up in a church context that has changed and looks different over time. But it's interesting, my mom once said to write Love on Arms was basically everything I ever learned or like kind of all of a sudden under one roof, like years later, you know? So I. I was a sales rep for a couple different clothing brands. I really loved music. I cared about people. I started to care about mental health in 2006. I was 26. It was kind of the moment of MySpace and the beginning of social media, sort of the. The world that has become normal. I always joke, like, MySpace has quieted down, but social media remains right. Like it's become, you know, I think about my nephews and for people growing up, it's like all they've ever known. But yeah, I think you and I have talked a little bit about adhd and mine was undiagnosed until a couple years ago. So I'm an enneagram4adhd, sensitive, big feelings. And I think only in recent years, even in. Since my diagnosis. And there's been a lot of therapy ongoing for the last decade, even prior to the diagnosis. But I'm thankful where you and I were just talking about birthdays and turning 40, being in our 40s. You're not there yet. But I feel like I have some tools and some language that hopefully makes me a better adult these days that it's not. I feel like in the past, especially early days of to write Love, it was just all heart, all feeling. Wasn't great with being organized or didn't know how to build a team, structure management. And that can make For a really challenging person to work for or work with. And so I think now I've come to value structure and I've come to value routine and schedule and budget and things I didn't think a lot about 15 years ago. 15 plus years ago. So, yeah, I'll. Maybe I'll start there. I know that's kind of all over the place, but that is. Those are some thoughts.
- [05:25]
Mallory Erickson
Yeah, I. I mean, I'm feeling like that piece around it being all heart, like that sentence that you said. And when I think about my nonprofit career and journey and even to what I'm doing today, like, my heart guides me. Like, my deep feelings around what I want for the world, what I want for people, like, that's always sort of my North Star. And I'm like playing with, like, where's the line? I don't use the term boundaries a ton, not because I don't believe in them, but just because I'm still figuring out what they mean. But that piece around sometimes caring deeply about things or a cause or the change you ultimately want to see might mean that in the short term, you have to make decisions or do things that don't feel heart led. They don't feel in conflict with your heart necessarily, but they aren't that quick. Appeasing heart decision. Like, the thing that my heart wants in the moment that would feel the easiest on my sensitivity is actually maybe in conflict with the big thing I want to be able to create or do or support. I'm curious, like, how do you thread that needle?
- [06:42]
Jamie Tworkowski
That's. There's so much that's fascinating there and that I relate to. You know, I think, like, the word sustainable was popping up in my head as you were talking, right? Because I think we will have really busy days, seasons, really challenging seasons, professionally, personally. And I think the question comes up, like, is this sustainable, right? Like, is this pace, this work, this job? And I think having to think about other factors that we can't always just do what we're feeling, right? Like, there's more like, hey, that's a beautiful idea. Really important. We don't have the budget for it. Hey, that's a great idea. But you're exhausted and you need to take, you know, take care of you. Like, so I think just there are so many different examples of the tension that I think to recognize. And for me, I think we touched on it the other day. All of this was new for me. Like, I didn't grow up. I didn't have mental health training. I didn't have nonprofit training. I stumbled into this and to write Love very much started by accident, and there was a lot to learn. And I think I got comfortable being on a stage talking about ideas that I did and do. Genuinely believe in community. Your story matters. You deserve to be known. You're meant to live in community. And I could stand on a stage and communicate that, but it's another thing to live it out. Like, hey, speaker guy, who, like, people are noticing your charity? Does anybody know you? Like, who do you talk to about the really hard stuff? Who do you talk to about the stuff that you're afraid of or that you don't know how to do? And I think some of what I come back to is, like, the really simple, hey, you probably need a therapist. I hope you have a good one. You should take some days off. You shouldn't work all the time. Because all of that, I think, lends itself to it being sustainable like, that you can keep going, because I think otherwise you find out the hard way that you could be the smartest person in the room. You could have the best ideas. But that stuff has a way of catching up to you, like, if. If you're not taking care of you. And. Yeah, so those are some other thoughts.
- [08:31]
Mallory Erickson
What do you think? Like, was there ever a moment in your journey with. To write love or afterwards where you had some, like, real sort of realization? I was diagnosed with ADHD young, and so it's something that I had sort of growing awareness of. And I'm still learning so much about the way it impacts when I feel like I can't stop. Not because anybody else is putting pressure on me, but because I physically, like, am driving myself so fast. But I'm curious, like, if you ever had these moments where you were, like, where something happened or realizations where you're like, oh, I can't do it that way anymore. Like, if I keep doing it that way, that is going to be what burns me out or that is going to be what makes me sort of unable to do this in the long run in the way that I want to.
- [09:19]
Jamie Tworkowski
Yeah, I'll share it in question form, but it has crossed my mind, if I had been diagnosed with ADHD sooner, would I still work it to write love on her arms? And that's like a very. I know that's a little bit, like, cryptic, but it's not always just us. Like, oh, I think I'm burning out. Right. Like, those conversations tend to get brought to your attention in really challenging ways. Like, hey, some people are not enjoying Working with you. Hey, the way you, you texting someone at 10 o' clock at night because you didn't like a tweet isn't going over great. So I think various forms of, hey, we want you to be you, we want you to be sensitive and. But you also have to be healthy and you have to think about. And I think too, and maybe you and I touched on this the other day. Like I do think culture has changed. I'm aware of things now that I wasn't 10 years ago in terms of the things we're talking about around so many things. Hr, people's boundaries, people being valued not just as workers but as human beings. And certainly you hope that in a non profit context and a mental health nonprofit profit context. So, yeah, there have been real, really challenging moments and conversations along the way. You could add in that I worked with my family. I mean at one point I worked with both of my sisters and my mom at, to write Love Today. My mom is actually the only one who's, she's still there full time, which we didn't have on our bingo card. But. And I, I love them and some of my closest, my best friend works there and I cheer for them. But a lot of this is not unique to fundraising or nonprofit. It's just like how to be self aware, how to, how to do the work, to figure out how you're wired and how that can be really challenging for relationships. How to think about how, how you treat people, what you enjoy, what I think I just, I have language and tools around the ADHD part of me that I didn't have literally at any point when I worked at the organization. And so it's easy to look back and wonder, man, what if I had known a little bit of that? If we had known a little bit of that. And I know that's true for there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people who could say what I just said. Right. Like adults who are being diagnosed later in life. Yeah. So those are. That's a little bit. I hope that makes sense.
- [11:32]
Mallory Erickson
It does. And actually it's interesting because like I mentioned, I, I was diagnosed as a kid, but I still didn't really understand all the ways that it manifested. Right. Like, I think there was still a limited amount of information about sort of how it showed up. And so I was sort of always looking for signs of being distracted, but not necessarily signs of the way in which my energy transferred in good and bad ways. Right. When I was in a good mood, my whole organization was on Cloud nine, when things were not going well, as much as I would try to mask it, everybody could feel my energy, right? So, like, hearing those things. And part of that was because also I think I wasn't taking care of myself. And so then I was resentful deep down, even though I wouldn't have said that. But I think now that I've been able to look back and reflect on it, it was like I was working myself to a pulp. And when other people would set boundaries or take care of themselves, or I didn't think, like, I was as judgmental as I was being of myself, which I was the hardest of on myself first. But that judgment was then being applied to other people too. And there was so much of my kind of, like, unraveling from that state of being that required me to look at, okay, what is this relationship between being highly sensitive and this helper and this person to feelings of victimhood when things don't go my way or being at the effect of my life? And how does that lead to maybe some shutdown or some resentment? And how are these things connected? And I went on a journey myself of like, looking deeply at my sort of quote unquote helpfulness tendencies because I found that a lot of times when I'd be the most upset about how something went down, it was because I had sort of felt like I really went out on a limb either for that person or for that thing I was working and that it wasn't being sort of mutually, like, appreciated or invested in. And I started when I went through my coaching certification. I they took us down this values activity. We started to realize that values can come from two different places. Conscious based values, but fear based values. So helpfulness can be coming from a really conscious place, or it can be coming sometimes from a place of I better be helpful or else, or else I'm not worthy, or else I'm not valuable, or else I'm not lovable. And I think for me, starting to notice the times in which it was coming from that place, from my fears around not being helpful enough, I found this, like, really intense correlation between the moments I was acting in helpfulness, but really from a state of fear, and then ultimately how I felt about everybody else's behavior versus when everything was coming from a more conscious place in me. I'm seeing you nodding a lot. Does that resonate with you?
- [14:31]
Jamie Tworkowski
Yeah. And again, I'm sorry I keep referencing our conversation, which no one else was present for, but I really enjoyed it a couple days ago. So I. I'M remembering us. I'm thinking about identity, right? Like, I know we. We talked a little bit about that, and that comes to mind, like, and that could be true of any. Like, I need this codependency. Like, I need this job. I need this donor. I need this nonprofit to continue. I need. I need to be a helper, right? And we could do a whole hour on that, right? Like, I need to help. I need to be seen as a helper. I need to be seen as good. All the ways you could unpack that in therapy, right? But, like, so many things. I mean, I think I'm in a new romantic relationship, and I really care about this person. I'm really excited. And it's interesting again, like, being 45 and stepping into a relationship and being thankful for what, like, the work I've done and what I know. But trying to be aware of, like, even how these themes apply. Like, not to need it too much, like, to where I exhaust the other person. Or, like, to be aware of the tendency for codependency. So I think what comes to mind is, like, there are so many things that we want to be associated with, or we. They are part of our identity for a season, right? Like, it. For me, it's. I mean, as I was for a long time, in a way, forever I'll been associated with. To write Love on her arms, like, with the organization that I started. And not that it's a household name for people who. Of a certain age who appreciated it. I was a part of something that meant a lot to a bunch of people and had a really surprising story. And it felt really good to, like, wear that hat. That's Jamie from. To write Love on her Arms. And then you're not a part of it anymore. And it's like, even down to, like, the language, right? Like, do I say we? Do I say they? But I think you can apply it to. To this conversation, to nonprofit work, to the idea of being a helper, like, because a lot of it is really just this human. And I'm not an expert in this, but, like, the human stuff of, like, our soul. Who am I? Why am I here? What do I want? Like, do I want to be understood or perceived? And then you just add in the unique moment that we live in where, like feels like the world is on fire. And that's the whole other. I know we touched on basic needs, hierarchy of needs, where for some people, there's more that they're thinking about than just the budget. Right? They're thinking about. Can I live in this country. Am I safe in this country? Am I safe in my town? Will my rights be taken away? Like, so people have to feel safe in order to even be in a, in a place to work on other things, right?
- [17:01]
Mallory Erickson
Like, yeah. When you think about like, organizations that are filled with people experiencing this moment in some similar ways and some very different ways based on the intersectional identities that we hold, like, if you were running an organization today, what would it look like? Because I do believe in validating, at least personally acknowledging and validating whatever it is that we're feeling. And I hear so, so much from people. Like, it's been interesting talking to so many nonprofits recently in my programs and I'll have folks say, like, well, I, I don't really have any room to complain because like, we haven't been hit that hard by the federal funding, you know, situation. And I'm just like, okay, sure. And like, you are allowed to be stressed right now with what is happening. And so I don't want people to feel like there's a finite amount of suffering and they have to decide if they suffer at all that somebody else doesn't get to that. I'm not saying that at all. But like, how do we hold space for each other and take care of ourselves in this moment where there is a huge variation in what is available to us physically, resource wise, mentally, because all our identities are different.
- [18:20]
Jamie Tworkowski
I think one thing that comes to mind is like the hope that, and I was aware of this at, to write love. I think we all were. Like the idea that you want to care for your people who serve this mission, who are part of the team for however long to, to feel seen as human beings first, like, right, to feel cared for. And I do think we're seeing some really good shifts. I know they don't apply to everyone instantly at the same time, but like some language around burnout and hopefully all things hr like benefits and boundaries and basically how to be good to the folks who, who are part of the team. And so that comes to mind. But I, I think, as I say that, I think a lot of people have good intentions, right? Like, oh, I want to care for the team. I want everyone to feel good about working here. And it becomes much harder to, to live out right when money's tight, when the headlines are scary and confusing day after day. Not to mention just life, right? Just like, oh, someone got sick. Oh, their marriage is on the rocks. Like just, just life happening. The two things that come to mind is to as much as you hear about company culture. Right. But I think to really live that out, like, to really prioritize that. And then I also think on the personal side, I know it can be a bit of a broken record, but I think hoping that. That every individual would have a support system like, that people would have friends, that people would have friends and folks outside of the team, outside of the work, that hopefully a therapist or a counselor. But would also that the barriers would be removed, that they could take care of themselves to the best of their ability. Right? So that they are cared for as an individual, as a human, and then it allows them to show up and do the work. But hopefully there's a way, and hopefully from that work, even from, like, the leadership perspective, like, to be able to create a space, to create a culture where that is prioritized. Like, but then it's also hard where if you tell people it's okay to make boundaries, it has to actually be okay. Right. Like, then you can't be bummed out when someone doesn't respond to your email at night or on the week. Right. So it's. Again, I think it's one thing to say it and another thing to. To live it out. And I know there will be exceptions, right. There will be busy moments and unique campaigns. And I come back to that sustainable piece, and I saw a headline in the. I think it was the Atlantic today. I didn't. I didn't get to read it yet, but it basically just said, like, if you're overwhelmed and freaked out by the headlines, like, maybe that's appropriate. Like, it basically said, like, we're not gonna. Like, maybe that actually is the. So I also. I think, also just making space for. And I love the way you acknowledge, like, people aren't being affected equally. Like, it isn't fair, but being, I think, especially aware of the folks who are navigating other factors outside of just the job.
- [21:07]
Mallory Erickson
Yeah. So there's a question in the Q and A about, you know, when you work in a nonprofit you believe in, and how do you set limits to work life and personal life? And I want to add kind of like, one other layer to that, which is I'd be curious, sort of like, how you think about those limits or boundaries between work and personal. But I'm also wondering, based on what you were just talking about, like, I started to wonder, you know, is it possible for a leader to support the boundaries of their team members if they don't exercise any of them themselves? And I'm curious what you think about that.
- [21:44]
Jamie Tworkowski
Definitely. I don't have an expert opinion, but I. My hunch is I haven't heard of an example of someone who cuts those corners, but totally gets it. And. Right. I think to me, the people that would be the most empathetic and sympathetic and encouraging of self care and boundaries and therapy, like, would be people that are practicing those things. I think, I guess sustainability is my word today, but I think it can be tempting where, like, but the work is so important or the work is so beautiful, or. And again, there will be those days, there will be those weeks, there might be those months, but you can't live. Or at least I can't live there too long. And I had to realize with my adhd, I have less gas in the tank a lot of days than the average person if it's up. I took a nap this afternoon because that would make me show up in a better headspace for this. Not everyone can, but would like to live in a world where there's a little bit of room for people to take naps, right. I'm sure a lot of people are like, yeah, that would feel good. But I think there was a time when I just worked morning, afternoon, night, weekends, holidays. And you can always justify it with the mission. But ultimately what I think catches up is, like, gonna be that healthy. Like, and so I think you're trying to find the balance. Like, I've. I've realized I do better on days where my calendar's not stacked every hour. Like, as a creative person, as an enneagram 4, like, I do better when there's a little bit of space to play with. And I know that's not always entirely up to us, especially if you're part of a team. But I think, I just, I think in a way it's less about the mission or the work or the job, and just more about, like, what are the rhythms that are healthy for you? How are you wired? How does your brain work? Like, what's actually healthy for you, no matter what your job is? But of course, you can apply that uniquely to your job, but I think don't romanticize your job to the point that it's not a job, right? Like, because I like the idea that there are other parts of life, right? Like, like, even I know you're a wife, you're a mom, like, you're a friend, you're a neighbor. And I think we need those other parts. Like, we need rest, we need days off, we. We need sleep, like, all, you know. So I do think it. We. We live in an interesting moment where there is more emphasis on these other parts of life, on seeing workers, even nonprofit workers, as whole people. But again, it's one thing to be aware of it or believe it in principle and another thing to. To practice it. But maybe it's small steps.
- [24:19]
Mallory Erickson
Yeah, I mean, there's so much in there about what you're saying. Like, I sometimes, I worry sometimes in nonprofits that the way in which we do the sort of like whole person support is actually in ways that maybe are like detrimental to people's health. Like, we ask for people to get paid less because they care so much about the mission. And we ask that. Right. We interweave it with identity and personhood so deeply that like, we intentionally, maybe not consciously, but we sort of break these boundaries because we're like, well, you really care about this and this is the change you're trying to make and this is tied to you are. And so in that way, then we feel a little bit confused and conflicted because I am who I am because I'm doing this work also. And so our personhood and our work identity become so intertwined that then those boundaries even become harder to like, pull apart.
- [25:20]
Jamie Tworkowski
I think, like, the more we can, I think, do the work. And I'm a big fan of therapy, big advocate and someone who has benefited and spent a lot of time in there and in life in general and in a unique season the last couple years learning about adhd. But I think the hope is like, the more we can show up as a healthy version of us. Right? And again, life throws curveballs. There's all sorts of ways that we'll step into, you know, challenges that we weren't anticipating. But like, I liked it. I don't know. There's been something for me, like, that's been healthy because it is this weird thing where it's like, no, I'm a non profit person. Like, no, I live in like for so long, I just. And it's like, it's kind of been healthy to be outside of that and be like, oh, that's a kind of job that you can have, but you're actually an adult person. Like, you're actually a human who worked at a non profit. And I think for a lot of people, like, just knowing we hope that life is long and you might work at a few different places. So this work is meaningful and it's important, but the thing you care so much about, it may not be around in 10 years. Someday it probably won't be around. And like, that's not the message today, but I think just. Just to operate from a place of freedom. Like, again, it kind of goes back to, like, it can't just be. I need. Because that's also. Codependency is like, I need this. I need this to work. I need this job to work. I need this budget to work. I need this donation to. And, like, I think I'm not Buddhist, nor do I know much about, like, that. For me, there's been a lot of growth that has come through having to show my cool identity of being the founder of this charity. You know, like, there's things that we learn through loss, I think. Yeah. So I don't know if there's an answer in there, but I hope so.
- [27:07]
Mallory Erickson
I just appreciate that we're, like, going there, honestly, because I think this is the messy part of it all. And I think especially, like, the world that we're living in right now, the urgency that people feel. And I feel like now is a moment where a lot of people are probably like, okay, well, I'm just like, we got to hustle right now because the sky is falling and all of these things. But I do feel like we've been saying this for five years in this sector. Right. Like, and maybe even longer than that. And so. And always feels like it's something. And so, you know, I think we're always going to find reasons to have this be the intense time.
- [27:43]
Jamie Tworkowski
Yeah. We all have those friends in different parts of life. My friend has been talking about work slowing down and him taking a surf trip for 20 years. It's a couple months away. I think we're going to get a break in August. Or someone who's like, I'm not dating right now. Like, I did a lot of years of life will start when. Right. Like, so I think you can look at other parts of life where I think it's just. It's like, hey, for me, it was, oh, life will start when I move to this better city. Life will start when I get a raise. Or life will start when my book comes out. Right. Life will start when I. And then it's like, hey, dude, you're 40. I think life has started. That's, you know, like. And so I think that has allowed me to make, I don't know, maybe talk the way I'm talking to Want to be a healthy. You know, because I think there's. That can be. And not that it's a. I know people age differently, but I do like the idea that as I get older, there is a Little bit of selfishness in the sense of like, hey, this is how I'm wired. I would like to take a nap today. You know, like, this is what works for me. And not every day is set up where it works for me, start to finish. But. And then you get into privilege. You get into. You and I are our own bosses at the moment. So there's privilege and challenge wrapped up in that. But I think I just, I have very little interest in, like, I want to believe and be aware that life has started and I want to live as if life has started and I'm in this relationship and I'm able to reflect on, like, all the ways I didn't choose someone in the past because I was choosing my work, I was choosing the nonprofit, I was choosing whatever I was hyper focused on because I hadn't been. You know, I was choosing to be messy because I thought that was like, that's just me. That's just. And now it's like, feels really good to. To be like, yeah, I got a lot of feelings about this person. I also want to write down and not forget and show up on time, you know, like. Like, I want to actually be an adult in this rel. And so, I don't know. I think that I have a bunch of ADHD friends and we talk about, like, you end up loving structure, which you thought was the thing you rolled your eyes at. Oh, that's not. I don't set reminders. I don't. And now it's like, oh, no, I need to do this in order to be a functioning person. Like, if I don't do this right now, I will never do this.
- [30:06]
Mallory Erickson
I mean, can I tell you how many times I messaged Apple to please make messages be marked as unread? I was like, imessages are just destroying every ADHD person out here. Could you please give us the functionality to mark as unread? And the day it came out, I complained about it for so long that the day it came out, multiple people messaged me. Do you know they finally did this? So, yes to all of that. And I think I love what you're saying about, like, it's so funny hearing you say the piece around life starting like, this sentence I've chosen to take out of my vocabulary for the last two years has been when life slows down. I've just said, I'm not gonna say that anymore. Like, it's. That's a very silly thing to say, but I' you know, things are full these next few weeks and Maybe we can find time at this. Because I'm waiting for something that I'm truly never going to create for myself. I joked with my husband once, this opportunity came up, and I was like, yeah, and then we could, like, maybe I could take a few years off. And he was like, mallory, that would last for two days. And you would create a new business and you would come out to the kitchen and be like, guess what? I did? And he's like, so let's just. We know who you are.
- [31:24]
Jamie Tworkowski
You're like, I bought a website.
- [31:26]
Mallory Erickson
Yeah. He's like, you have no chill. Like, you and Godaddy own way too many URLs. So I so appreciate that because I think it is so important that we are living life in the life we have. And everybody deserves that. I mean, everybody. But folks here, like, you are doing such important, such sacred, such critical work. You deserve to enjoy your life and be living now and to be able to hold that with the incredible impact that you're making in your communities. So I know we're almost out of time, but I have to ask you this question. I think people have realized this during the conversation, but Jamie is really funny. Like, really funny. And when we had our first, like, meeting, we were just pretty much being complete goofballs for most of it.
- [32:18]
Jamie Tworkowski
Which started with what I think you're going to talk about.
- [32:21]
Mallory Erickson
Oh, I wasn't even going to say it, but now you've really made it up. What I was going to say is, how does laughter and joy fit into all of this for you? Because you laugh a lot and you bring a lot of joy even to really hard, really tender conversations and something I really love about you. And I'm just curious.
- [32:45]
Jamie Tworkowski
No, I love that there's a. I don't know if it quote came from Bono. I know the quote through Bono, so I don't know if it is from Bono or he stole it from someone, but the quote is, laughter is the evidence of freedom. And I really like that. Laughter is the evidence of freedom. And I don't know, I think for me, what comes to mind is like, being myself. First off, thank you. But, like, my girlfriend has said that. My girlfriend's like, hey, I looked at your Instagram. It's not funny. It's not that fun. Like, you're actually funny, you know? So I think some of it is I want to be myself. So it's not like a strategic. Right. It's not like I'm gonna laugh from 4 to 4:15 today because. Right. But I think Just you said you liked structure. Yeah, totally. But I think just maybe it is kind of like getting older. What I talked about. Like, I want to know who I am. I want to. Where it's appropriate, like, like be myself. And I have realized it feels good to laugh. And it's also funny where stuff like this, the imposters, like, I think even my pre call with you the other day, the imposter syndrome, the grown up stuff kicks in. Like, all right, I gotta be a grown up now. Like, and then I get there and it's like, oh, this is a person who I'm talking to. Like, I know how to do this. Like, we could laugh together. We could talk about real shit. Like, I could say that word that's meta if I start talking about saying bad words. So I think, yeah, just knowing it. I lead a bunch of groups. Like, I lead groups that two people sign up for a month at a time. So Sunday and Monday nights, like three hours on Zoom with eight people and myself. And we talk about heavy stuff. Like if you walk by, it might look like group therapy. We talk about big things and big decisions and ways that life is hard and we laugh a lot. And it's, I think comes to mind is like, I need other people. I. This can only happen because I'm talking to you. And I. It is a weird thing where a lot of this for me does happen digitally or virtually. It happens on Zoom. You know, you and I are meeting in a unique context, but I have to not just be alone in my house or alone in my head. Like when I spend time with other people, it can be fun, it can be funny, it could be smart, it could be moving. It could be all the things that are great about life. It could be work. And so I think in a way it's like, maybe that's a common thread throughout our time. Today is like, I want to remember that I'm a person, right? Like, I want to remember, like, I'm alive today and talking to you. And yeah, it's work and there's, we want to do a good job, but that, like, it's not this compartmentalized thing, right? We're like, oh, now we do the non profit talk and then later I will laugh, right? It's like, no, this is all about life. Like, we're all just trying to make sense of life and trying to help people, trying to bring justice to a really confusing, messed up world. Believing that, like, our own redemption is tied up in the healing and redemption of other people. So I'm being such an enneagram for right now.
- [35:41]
Mallory Erickson
You're perfect. Will you guys drop Community Boost? Will you guys drop Jamie's link to his website where folks can go and learn about those groups, programs? I think that would be really great. And I'll drop in the chat as well, like a free fundraising community group, too. I think this piece around community and being together and being in places where you can be yourself and I mean, those are my favorite conversations, my favorite relationships, everything are where we can talk about real deep, hard things and then cackle, laugh five minutes later, and then we can dive back in. And I feel like. I mean, our nervous system, it's regulating. I feel like in allows me. It's almost like when I'm going deep with somebody, I need that, like, every so often to walk deeper into it, to be a little bit more vulnerable, to feel the hard stuff a little bit more deeply. I need the release of laughter and fun. And yeah, I think to your point, too, like, if we are highly sensitive people who are going to feel all the big hard stuff with our whole selves, I want to feel all the good stuff with my whole self, too. And so I appreciate what you said so much.
- [36:55]
Jamie Tworkowski
Someone put in the chat that this was not the session they were expecting, but it was the one they needed. And I did not know, I don't know that we were expecting this either.
- [37:04]
Mallory Erickson
But I don't think we were. But I'm really glad we had it. I think what we were expecting was to try to meet you all in the moment. Like, we know that this is a really hard and really challenging time, and we wanted to come here today and have the realest conversation that we would have had in private had it been today. And we just wanted to do that with all of you. I think we're going to get virtually caned off the stage in a second. But, Jamie, thank you so much. Thank you for the way that you show up, for everything you've modeled for the nonprofit community, for all the wisdom you've shared with everybody today. I'm so grateful for your time, your energy, your laugh, your compliments, all the things.
- [37:49]
Jamie Tworkowski
Thanks, Mallory. You're awesome. I'm such a fan of yours, and I think we're new friends. Fast friends, maybe. But I like you a lot. Thanks for doing this.
- [37:57]
Mallory Erickson
Likewise. Thank you both. I feel like this was exactly the conversation we all needed today. So I'm just so thankful for both of you for showing up as your full selves and really bringing all of these thoughts in this conversation. That honestly doesn't get had very often. So this was really special and I really, really appreciate you both. Thank you so for being here. I hope today's episode inspired or challenged you to think differently. For additional takeaways, tips, show notes and more about our amazing guest and sponsors, head on over to Malloryerickson.com podcast and if you didn't know, hosting this podcast isn't the only thing I do every day. I coach, guide and help fundraiser and leaders just like you inside of my program, the Power Partners Formula Collective. Inside the program, I share my methods, tools and experiences that have helped me fundraise millions of dollars and feel good about myself in the process. To learn more about how I can help you, visit MalloryErickson.com PowerPartners Last but not least, if you enjoyed this episode, I'd love to encourage you to share it with a friend you know would benefit it or leave a review. I'm so grateful for all of you and the good, hard work you're doing to make our world a better place. I can't wait to see you in the next episode.