← What the Fundraising
What the Fundraising
256: Hiring for Impact: Aligning Talent, Well-Being, and Mission with Kishshana Palmer
00:30:28
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- [00:04]
A
The truth is, I wanted to throw up before every donor meeting. Fundraising is high stakes and deeply human, vulnerable and tender. What I needed more than anything was a place to practice. So I created one. Practivated is the first ever donor conversation simulator where you have a private and safe space to put in the reps, refine your messaging and build your confidence. Learn more@practivated.com.
- [00:34]
B
It is possible to invite a professional into an environment that is struggling and for that professional to help breathe light, but for them not to lose their air. It is about intention. It is about design. It is about belief. It is about doing the boring things first and well. It is about getting sustainable support, including coaching from day one.
- [01:01]
C
Hey, my name.
- [01:02]
A
Is Mallory and I'm obsessed with helping leaders in the nonprofit space raise money and run their organizations differently. What the Fundraising is a space for real and raw conversations to both challenge and inspire you. Not too long ago I was in your shoes. Uncomfortable with fundraising and unsure of my place in this sector. It wasn't until I started to listen to other experts outside of the fundraising space that I was able to shift my mindset and ultimately shift the way I show up as a leader. This podcast is my way of blending professional and personal development so we as a collective inside the nonprofit sector can feel good about the work we are doing. Join me every week as I interview some of the brightest minds in the personal and professional development space to help you fundamentally change the way you lead and fundraise. I hope you enjoy this episode, so let's dive in.
- [01:55]
C
Hi everyone. I am so excited to be here today with my good friend Kishana Palmer. Kishana, welcome to what the fundraising.
- [02:02]
B
Yes. I feel like I should be like friend of the show. You know like on Real Housewives or fill in the blank. Yes, regular occurring.
- [02:10]
C
You basically are. Because I think we're dropping this episode on a non podcast day because I'm literally so excited about this announcement that I just can't help myself. So okay, you need no introduction but give a little intro to you that sort of like walks into what we are here to talk about today.
- [02:28]
B
Oh my gosh. So at the W.E. and Tinder age of 21, someone told me I should go out and raise some money. Lord. And so I left investment banking behind and said sure, I will go from making it to asking for it. What do you know? And through the highways and byways. Mallory okay. Every time I tried to get out, an organization pulled me back and north of 100/ million dollars later I have been so Fortunate to have been chief development officer, chief External affairs officer for some really, really, really dope social impact organizations, helping to close the social safety net in our communities locally and nationwide. And then I decided to go off and start my own, my own firm. Okay. Doing leadership work. But then every week, Mallory, every week for the last nine years, I get an email at least five or six times a week on a slow week. Kashana, do you know anybody who. What do you think they're asking me, Mallory? It's just a question. You get to.
- [03:38]
C
Do you know anybody who could help us raise money over here?
- [03:44]
B
Bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing.
- [03:49]
C
Yeah.
- [03:50]
B
And the answer is yeah. And I didn't do anything with it. I would refer people, I would connect folks. I have been able to like, casually place folks, work with some really great consulting practices. But folks kept asking me, why don't I do search? And I'm like, ah, because I want to do it my way and folks want to do it this staggy old way and I can't be bothered. And I really think there's a particular way that organizations should really think about their people. And it is not herding us all into the barn like cattle and hoping one of us gets picked to be sloth. Which is how I feel like a lot of candidates would say their searches have felt like even when they are excited about the mission. And so I ran away from it for a long time.
- [04:35]
C
Okay, so what changed? Why are you going to tackle this now? Tell us about. Wait, tell us about how you're going to tackle it and why you're going to tackle it. Because this is what I'm so stoked about.
- [04:47]
B
Oh my gosh. So how am I going to tackle this? So you remember Ed McMahon's star search coming to you live from Queens, New York. It's the girl band Kish and Mal.
- [05:01]
C
Sorry, you know, could you please conduct your searches this way? I would, I would tune in. I'm tuning in.
- [05:09]
B
Yes. To be like, we're going to televise our searches. I hope you like it. No. So essentially I decided talk to my team and we said, how can we do this differently if we're going to approach helping amazing, amazing development professionals land at organizations and not want to flip tables six months later. We've got to think about how to connect great talent with great missions, with transparency, with clarity and honestly, with an eye on health and wellness and well being. And I wouldn't touch it if I was not able to ensure that candidates who work with us that we are Clear about where they are in this season of their life. Are they a sandwich generation professional taking care of their parent and their young ones? Are they an empty nester? Have they been a trailing spouse their entire career? And now their partner is switching gears and now they got to switch gears? Have they been in toxic environments for most of their career where they have felt like they've only been able to operate in their skills areas but not their talents and definitely not their gift? Have they been able to take care of themselves? Or are they on the. Well, you know, it's a nonprofit, so we got to work 90 hours a week. You do not. So we are approaching search from the perspective of thing one. We care about the health and well being of the people who we know are raising capital for amazing organizations. Because you cannot amplify, activate or accelerate mission if you're exhausted. Hello. Or if people are quitting and you have a revolving door, folks. And I do not want to accept the status quo of we leave every 18 to 24 months.
- [06:58]
C
Yeah.
- [06:59]
B
So management is going to be introducing development talent search. So we are going to be offering a bespoke search service for organizations who are tired of the same old, same old in search, who are overwhelmed by the search process, who may not necessarily have the investment dollars for the higher end searches that don't always yield the best candidates. Let's be honest. And for candidates who want to align with a practice that puts their wellness and well being both in their personal life and in their career first, as one of the levers of matching them with an organization that they're going to raise capital for, which I think is a different way that we're approaching putting the right type of development leadership in organizations.
- [07:54]
C
Okay, so what do you think? Who are the people? Like, who are the leaders and what makes them different so that they know you're the type of search that they need. Like, because I've been hearing you talk, I'm like, ooh, like for some leaders.
- [08:13]
A
Like, they're not ready for you.
- [08:15]
C
Right? Like, they are like, oh, you're gonna tell my people they don't have to like kill themselves and do 400,000 things. Like, so tell me about, like the types of leaders that this type of search is for.
- [08:29]
B
I think the type of leader that development talent search is for, they are the folks who are saying, I'm tired of the same old same old. If you've heard yourself saying, I got to do everything myself, I can't find good talent, why am I not able to keep folks, oh, kashana I'd never be able to attract anybody to this small town in this flyover state. Oh, Kashana. I'd never be able to because of the money that we're bringing in. Oh, Kashana. If you find yourself doing. Oh. Singing the old blues tune about your team, then whether you're ready for me or not, this is your opportunity to do something different. Because clearly the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results. How's it working for you, friends? And as someone who has hired hundreds and hundreds of development professionals across my career on massive size teams all the way to really small teams, I have gotten really, really keen and I've worked with my consultants. We've gotten sharp on a couple of things. Thing one, you have got to be able to design jobs not as a ticker tape of tasks, but as an umbrella of responsibilities of ownership so that you can get out of the way for your fundraisers to lay bricks. If that's their job in operations, to build on it. If that's their job, to scaffold, to get out in front and ask and to do that well. And we're going to talk about that in a second. How do we get folks to really get confident and comfortable with asking? Because let's face it, we know a lot of folks who've been in the business a long time, they can't ask. They're not even asking for peppermint patties. Okay? So the person that's going to want to reach out to me is a board member who's like, I don't want to go through a nine month search, but I also don't want to rush, right? How do I cut through the noise of all of these inflated resumes and get to folks who will be able to thrive with the conditions our organization is in today? I wouldn't put a builder in a sustaining role. Because builders, even if they're tired, they need scaffolding and any team, but they want to build, they're looking around. If everything is sustaining, they're going to break something. I wouldn't put a sustainer in a builder's role. I wouldn't put somebody who is used to being a specialist in a generalist environment at an organization when they're used to having 37, 11, 245 people to support them in their portfolio. I don't want to set folks up for failure. I think that you can set them up for success before they ever even touch the digital door of an interview.
- [11:04]
C
Who? Okay, wow.
- [11:12]
A
The question I'VE been asked the most in the last five years is how do you always know what to say to a donor? And the truth is, because I've navigated donor conversations thousands of times, unfortunately, I had to learn what to say the hard way. Live with a donor in high stakes conversations. It was uncomfortable, messy, defeated, feeding, and definitely led me to burnout. I want better for fundraisers, which is why I built Practivated, the first AI powered donor conversation simulator built just for fundraisers. With real time feedback, customizable scenarios and coaching from your AI guide, coach Tivi, you can practice donor conversations in a safe, judgment, free space. I want to help you build confidence, reduce stress and and strengthen donor relationships all at the same time. Are you interested? Book your demo with me. Mallory erickson today@practivated.com backslash demo.
- [12:13]
C
Okay. There's so many things in here that I feel like are so important and I'm really excited about. And I know, I'm sorry, I jumped the gun. I sort of like told your secret because I was just like.
- [12:24]
B
I was.
- [12:24]
C
Like, I'm so excited. Okay. So I think there's this really interesting, it's interesting, like the limiting beliefs that you were saying before, like that people are coming to you with, you know, we can't attract talent here, we don't have the money for this. All these limiting beliefs, what I hear you saying in this, like, differentiation is actually like more than the compartments that we've thought about search in. They're actually all these other things that matter a lot more. And like, what you're looking for, what you think you can't get in some category is actually not the thing that really matters to the person and ultimately to their success in your organization. So talk to me about that. Like, it seems to me that you're shifting a lot more than just like the overall process, but also the mindset through which organizations are looking for talent, understanding what they need. Like, there's this whole piece to this work.
- [13:17]
B
Well, first I want folks to have an attitude check, right? Because think about it, when we go into looking for a role, the shoulders drop, the dread ensues. Oh, we gotta find somebody. You know, like even people's voice, the octaves drop. It sounds like, you know, they've been in the side too long and just, it's just a mess. And so you're already going into a process to invite someone into a relationship with you and you don't want to be there.
- [13:46]
C
Yeah.
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B
And friends, we are in the business of relationships. I want folks to know that you might be raising capital and you'll hear me say that. People say, oh, raising money. Yes, that too, but also capital. We are actually creating space Runway for our missions to breathe. And right now we really need to do that. So we need folks who are healthy, and that is healthy of mind and of body and of spirit. And my experience as a leadership coach for the last 10 years and working with boards for the last almost 20, it's possible. It is possible to invite a professional into an environment that is struggling and for that professional to help breathe light, but for them not to lose their air. It is about intention, it is about design, it is about belief. It is about doing the boring things first and well. It is about getting sustainable support, including coaching from day one. How many times have you started a role? I remember when you were first telling me about the first time you were ed, wasn't nobody offering you a drop of. Not a spot of bread, okay? Not a coach to be found. And yet we want our development leaders. Whether you're an executive director and a board is looking to hire you, whether you're a development director, you're a chief, whether you are operations lead, major gift officer, grant writer, development assistant. We want people to just know, but we want people to respect our profession. So you either want to know and, or you want to learn. So you either pay to learn or you learn to pay. So the process that we're bringing forward is super simple. We're putting together what I, you know, think of Legos one. We can help you just design a process. You can run yourself with your org health in mind, with the reality in mind. And I'll give you a quick example of why I think that's important. I remember working for an organization before the pandemic and baby, that organization was falling apart. Oh, Lord. And I had to hire in that environment and I had to tell potential candidates we might run out of money in the next six months to pay. And I want you to know I still had finalists. I want you to know I still hired someone who said to me the reason I left my stable organization and came to work alongside you was because this is the first time I have experienced a manager in hiring who made clear the playing field for me and allowed me to choose. And so what we want to be able to bring, to search that I don't see very much of is that relationship, right? Giving candidates agency, giving organizations opportunity to have breathing room and to trust that wherever they are in that stage, whether they're mezzanine state organization, whether they're a startup or whether they're a big kid organization, they're still in two type baby clothes. Because we know some organizations like that, that there are professionals who are excited about that. And that is not dissimilar from dating.
- [16:29]
C
No. And you know, it's interesting hearing you talk. So with practivated, I've been hiring a lot. Like, and I didn't really. We are in startup mode. Everything was super organic. Like we had a process. But I am just very transparent by default and had wanted people to really walk into a startup environment knowing what they were walking into. It's like, it's amazing to me a little bit that like this is so revolutionary that you would, you would not want somebody to be surprised on their first day of work that being inside the organization feels fundamentally different than what it felt when, during the hiring process. But I have certainly had that like where the hiring process was like super curated. And then I'm like, oh my God, this organization, that leader's a monster. This organization's toxic. Like all these things, things, right? And it's like. And we have attracted some unbelievable talent.
- [17:27]
B
Oh, I cannot imagine.
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C
And they have left stable, better paying positions to come here. And I think for many of the same reasons that you just said. And so I really think like, and what I love about what you're talking about is like anyone can do that, right? Like anyone, any leader, any organization can be open, can be supportive, can give people agency. There are no financial barriers to being that leader.
- [17:59]
B
There are none. There are none. And so we're looking at everything from helping you run something yourself to helping you select a firm if you want to do a more traditional search, but you want the management flavor to twist on it, to running your complete curated bespoke search. So we're not going to have 57, 11, 20, 45 candidates. We do the work because we have the network of identifying the type of professionals that will thrive in your organization. Right. You got to trust us to know that we are. But we, we have some, some seeing eyes. Look, you and I both know we have those mama eyes, the ones in the back of our head. So I have a team of folks who have been in the trenches for 20 plus years a piece of, who have those seeing eyes. And so we bring that keen eye. We are actual fundraisers. We are actually hiring managers. We are actually folks who had to raise money during the housing crisis of 08, when the Earth was going to fall in 1999, during 2016, during COVID Like we, we know what we are doing. And therefore for an organization they can trust that we are going to put people in sea who can hit the ground running with the resources that they have available to them and to ensure that they are successful. The thing that we are offering is ensuring that that first year is a year of success. And so leaders that we place can walk alongside us for coaching, for making sure they're properly onboarded and ooh, they even get to ensure that they have donor health, donor practicing, verbiage readiness. Okay. With our partnership with practivated. Come on. So we are going to ensure that every person who has a responsibility of raising capital has an opportunity to learn alongside the best. Powered by Practivated. And to me, if I had practice when I was in my first two ears, I'd be famous because I promise you, I'd have broke the code on the lotto. I just, I want you to know that's the kind of confidence I would have had. Okay. And so being able to leverage a tool in our coaching practice and in our leadership practice like Practivated, where folks who are afraid to try, like you and I have talked for years, you got to practice. Okay. I am speaking at a conference on Sunday on the keynote that I am well versed in on a book I wrote and I still practiced already. Okay. Hello. So being able to have that ongoing coaching, that onboarding, ensuring that the data matches the people, that matches the environment so that we help organizations make that smooth transition so that we can lengthen the amount of time that heads of development and development professionals are in seat is something that is I think new and different for us at management. And so our development talent search, I think we gonna break some necks. Okay. In the best way. Just want you to know best.
- [21:05]
C
This is so the reason I'm, I'm so excited about this for so many different reasons is I think I feel like I don't know the right way of saying this that isn't gonna come out somehow wrong. But I sometimes I have felt like search firms, right? They make money by, by turnover. Like let's just like say it, right? And so I've always felt, I've just wondered and sure they might have a three month guarantee or whatever it is, but they're not in the business of making people happy in their places, right. They're in the business of checking boxes, of filling a seat and moving on. And, and it's been a huge pain point of this sector. Like even as you're talking I felt feel my trauma in my belly of working with Firms and filling positions and the fear of hiring and not feeling confident, but having the firm tell me, you know, this is your best shot at like getting somebody with this experience. So I jump on it from a total scarcity mindset perspective. And it's the wrong fit and I'm paying for it. And in so many ways, like, this is just such a painful experience, especially for small and mid sized organizations. And I'm just so grateful that you in particular, and somebody with your orientation towards wellness and health and looking at the whole person and looking at the whole organization and really identifying alignment is like going to tackle this because it is a big problem.
- [22:46]
B
I mean, it's so big. It's so big. The amount of time that I spend when I'm working with organizations in crisis, where I can pinpoint during their recruitment process where things went left times 50 people, times a hundred people, times 150 people, times 300 people. I'm working with an organization right now with 300 of their managers and I wondered to myself, how did we get to this 300 when easily a third of them? And it is not because they don't have skill, it is because they don't have will. And the lack of will didn't show up yesterday. Upon closer inspection, for many of them, the will wasn't there when they interviewed. And different people apply for different roles at different points in their life for different reasons. So similar to how donors have all type of reasons that they're giving, I do not stand in judgment of the reasons why. So as an experienced hiring manager who has run my own searches start to finish. So this is not Kashana jumping into some game I've never been in before. Hello. I know that when I see candidates who come in, beat down, downtrodden, I want to stop. I have stopped the interview to be like, hey, hey, time out, time out. What's going on? Let's talk about it. What would need to be true? And they don't trust me because they're like, you want me to tell you my bit that's not going to impact your interview insofar as I need to make sure that you're healthy enough for the environment that I know you're coming into. And so as a person who was helping to broker that conversation, I need to be able to turn to candidates and go, listen, you're not planning to get in therapy about that if you don't have an outlet so that you can sweat, if you don't have a creative process that brings you back to play because that's where innovation lives. You cannot go into an organization that needs innovation that's at a point of inflection. Right. So that's not something that's on somebody's resume. I didn't ask them to think about how much money they raised or when. And through leveraging, practivated as a tool, I'll be able to actually see where they're going to need some scaffolding, where their learning curve is going to be so that I can help tailor and design that onboarding experience so that it goes with the flow of the organization and of the professional we're putting in place. Oh, my God.
- [24:47]
C
I'm so excited. I. I'm really. I'm really so excited. I mean, I feel like. I just love. I just also want to, like, double click on this moment because I feel like, you know, both you and I, and we talk about this all the time. Like, there are so many. We love this sector so much, and there are so many things that make us, like, bang our head against the wall. And I would have never in a million years thought to address this problem. Like, I don't have the skills. I don't have the, like, anything. I would have never, ever thought, too. I. This was definitely one of the things where I was just like, it's just the way it is. The way it is sucks, but it is the way it is. And I just love that you're doing this because you continue to show, like, it doesn't have to be the way it is, you know, which is so, so much of, like, my dreaming behind practice was like, there's gotta be a better way. And. And I just want more, like, nonprofit leaders, coaches, and consultants, but also people in house to, like, have that mindset. Like, when you hit those walls and you're like, this doesn't have to be that way. That, like, we get to be creative, the creators of the way. And I just. I appreciate the, like, inspiration to blow things up and do it different.
- [26:01]
B
Oh, my gosh. And listen, we're not taking everybody. Okay. Everybody's not going to be a fit. Because the reality of the situation is when you are committed to not burning out your people to get to that outcome.
- [26:12]
C
Yeah.
- [26:13]
B
That means that organizationally, I might have to say to a CEO or to a board chair, y' all not ready for this type of process.
- [26:19]
C
Yeah.
- [26:20]
B
First of all, everybody else on the program side operations, so they're going to be jelly. Okay? So, because why did they have this smooth, criminal process? Why would they. Just chilling. Okay.
- [26:30]
C
Yeah.
- [26:31]
B
And yeah, we're over here on a struggle bus, like so let's ensure that as we're having conversations. Oftentimes I get this thing when people hear me say a thing and they go, oh, sounds pretty straightforward, I'm just going to go do it. And I encourage you to try. But the reality is when you're operating in your talents and those are the things that you learn and then typically you monetize, that's how you end up in a job. When you are in your. That's in your skills. Excuse me, when you are in your talent, you are in the things that come easiest to you, naturally to you, and you get to decide if you want to monetize them or not. A lot of us do that on a second career, right? When you are in your gifts, those are things that you were born to do. Many of us don't even recognize that we are in our gifting and at the particular season of life and rarely do we get to monetize them. The gift that I have is being able to ensure that people's lives are changed when I touch them. You know what I'm saying? You know? And so what I want to be able to bring to the profession is that gifting that just because something is not easy doesn't mean it can't be easeful. I want professionals to not feel trapped in their work. I want organizational leaders to not lead from fear even when the terrain ahead is overcast. And I think a different approach to the management style of search. Looking at health first, looking at overall fit, looking at surviving versus thriving, ensuring that we have a coaching component that allows folks to be able to on ramp with support and leverage practivated as a tool, to be able to do so and to be able to have that ongoing touch point that we don't just say it's been so great. Good luck, friends. I think is going to shift the way we look at how we recruit, how we attract and how we retain talent and how we support them in their growth in our sector. We've got to do it.
- [28:26]
C
I love that. Easy versus easeful. Yeah. Wow. Okay. I'm thrilled if anybody can't tell. I mean, I'm so honored. I'm so honored that practicing gets to play a role in this. And that is everything I built that for too. And I love just seeing the inter weaving of like wellness and care and support and the way it can, it really can be infused in all these broken parts of our sector. And I'm just so, I'm so excited for you. I'm so excited for the sector. I'm so honored to be a part of it. I thank you for coming in and sharing this news here with all of us today.
- [29:08]
B
Oh my gosh. Listen folks, just head on over to management co or developmenttalentsearch.com and reach out to our team. We are super excited. Thanks for having me.
- [29:27]
A
I hope today's episode inspired or challenged you to think different differently. For additional takeaways, tips, show notes and more about our amazing guest and sponsors, head on over to Mallorykson.com podcast and if you didn't know, hosting this podcast isn't the only thing I do every day. I coach, guide and help fundraisers and leaders just like you inside of my program, the Power Partners Formula Collective. Inside the program, I share my methods, tools and experiences that have helped me find, fundraise millions of dollars and feel good about myself in the process. To learn more about how I can help you, visit MalloryErickson.com PowerPartners Last but not least, if you enjoyed this episode, I'd love to encourage you to share it with a friend you know would benefit or leave a review. I'm so grateful for all of you and the good, hard work you're doing to make our world a better place. I can't wait to see you in the next episode.
- [30:21]
B
Foreign.
- [30:28]
A
Doesn'T have to Feel like a Solo battle My book what the Fundraising Embracing and Enabling the People behind the Purpose offers practical strategies and frameworks to help you navigate the challenges of fundraising with ease and impact. And with our free discussion guide, you can deepen learning and collaboration with your team or book club ready to transform the way you fundraise. Head to mallorykson.com backslash book to order your copy today anywhere books are sold and you can grab the guide there too.