267: Building a Culture That Values All Gifts and All Givers with Leslie Carmona

Summary

Podcast Summary: What the Fundraising – Episode 267

Title: Building a Culture That Values All Gifts and All Givers with Leslie Carmona
Host: Mallory Erickson
Guest: Leslie Carmona
Date: October 30, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of What the Fundraising features an in-depth conversation with Leslie Carmona, Senior Director of Donor Experience and Individual Giving at Wayne State University. Together with host Mallory Erickson, Leslie unpacks the deeply human side of fundraising leadership, the challenge of building a collaborative team culture in higher education, and the practical and philosophical shifts necessary to value all gifts and all givers—moving beyond a hierarchy dominated by major gifts.

The conversation bridges high-level strategy, personal leadership development, and tangible, community-centric practices. Leslie shares her experience designing an integrated, innovative donor experience team with a focus on proportionality, inclusion, and welcoming engagement—no matter the donor’s giving level.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Leslie’s Background and Approach to Fundraising (02:27–06:37)

• Context: Leslie manages a large, cross-functional fundraising and donor experience team at Wayne State University in Detroit.
• Team Design: She intentionally structured the team to foster collaboration and break silos common in higher ed, integrating donor relations, annual campaigns, student fundraising, and leadership gift officers.
• Aspirational Focus: “I want our team and our work to be the one that other organizations and institutions look at and want to be that way or want to do the kind of work we’re doing.” (Leslie, 05:16)
• Community-Centric Principles: For the last two years, her team has been intentionally integrating these principles across operations, despite institutional inertia.

Rethinking Innovation: Human Connection over Technology (06:37–10:23)

• Host Reflection: Mallory contrasts common notions of innovation as technology-driven versus Leslie’s focus on deepening human relationships.
• Meeting Donors Where They Are: The team prioritizes understanding how different segments (e.g., law school alumni) prefer to communicate, using those cues to guide engagement.
• Leslie’s Philosophy: “If my focus as I lead my team is this is what that human needs, or this is how I can best support this individual on a human level, I have a much higher-performing team because there’s a lot of trust built in those spaces.” (Leslie, 08:22)

Defining “What Works” in Fundraising (10:23–14:29)

• Rethinking Success Metrics: They measure success not just by revenue, but by the entire donor journey—solicitation, stewardship, and the cohesiveness of donor experience.
• Equity in Impact: “It does not matter to me if you are giving us a dollar or you are giving us $15,000. I want you to feel equally good about that decision, no matter what.” (Leslie, 12:36)
• Donor Growth: The team bucks higher ed trends by increasing total donor numbers year-over-year, focusing on the breadth of participation and retention.

Tactical Approaches to Inclusive Donor Engagement (14:29–18:12)

• First-Time Givers Program: Red carpets for all, not just substantial donors—“A little bit of staff time to make people feel really good about giving that first $10, $5 gift to our organization.”
• Consecutive Giving Community: Loyal donors (regardless of gift size) are celebrated for their ongoing commitment, not just those meeting major gift thresholds.
• Strategic Recognition: Focus on loyalty and consistency unearths planned giving prospects and deepens relationships beyond dollar value.

Leadership, Inner Work, and Team Emotional Culture (18:12–24:05)

• Mallory’s Question: How does Leslie maintain conviction in a landscape driven by major gift metrics and external pressure?
• Leslie’s Honest Assessment: Leadership is “a lot of emotional work,” requiring her to play both therapist and boss. She shoulders pushback for her team so they can focus on delivering impact.
• Data as Conviction: “I have found if I can lean in on the data, higher ed loves that.” (Leslie, 21:20)
• Calculated Risks: Leslie recounts sending an emergency fund appeal tied to community-centric values, leading to overwhelmingly positive responses and building trust for future innovation.

Curiosity, Psychological Safety, and Leadership Practice (25:26–29:26)

• Mallory’s Coaching Insight: Leslie’s approach—curiosity, reframing catastrophic thinking, and openness—creates psychological safety for her team to try new things.
• Leslie on Leading Calmly: “Being a good leader is being calm because we are herd animals and we respond to each other.” (Leslie, 28:23)
• Empowering Teams: Rather than shutting down ideas, Leslie encourages questions that allow teams to collaboratively validate or tweak proposals.

Removing Hierarchies in Fundraising Organizations (33:35–40:18)

• Challenging the Major Gifts Obsession: Leslie critiques the hyper-focus on major/principal gifts, arguing that it not only skews resource allocation but also creates harmful internal hierarchies.
• Proportional Giving: She champions equivalence in impact, recognizing that a $10 gift from a recent graduate might be as significant as a $10,000 gift from a seasoned donor.
• Breaking the ‘Thoroughbred’ Paradigm: “Have you heard this where people say… ‘The major gift officers are our thoroughbreds’? …So then what’s gift processing? Like, what are they? …If we don’t start placing more value on those pieces, I worry about what that means for the future of our industry.” (Leslie, 35:28–36:32)
• The Vision: A truly personal, long-term donor relationship begins at the first gift, not when a prospect is ready for a major gift ask: “If all we’re doing is trying to start the relationship at the moment where that person has the most capacity to give us the most—like, is that really a relationship?” (Leslie, 38:19)

Practical Steps for Organizations of Any Size (40:18–43:35)

• Adaptable Advice: Leslie acknowledges the size gap between Wayne State and tiny nonprofits, offering ideas about scaling engagement with volunteers or simple gestures.
• Blueprint for Lifecycle Engagement: She describes a framework wherein every stage (solicitation, acknowledgement, recognition, engagement) receives focus, ensuring nobody falls through the cracks.
• Change Takes Time: Transformation of organizational culture and donor pipeline is possible gradually, with incremental changes toward proportional, inclusive engagement.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Human-Centric Leadership:
  “Sometimes in a given day, you’re going to be part therapist, part boss, and that’s okay. …Leaning into those things have actually made me a better leader.” (Leslie, 00:38 & 19:40)

• On True Innovation:
  “Innovation isn’t always about new shiny objects. Sometimes it’s pulling out the robotic mechanisms and coming back to deep human connection and community.” (Mallory, 06:37–08:02)

• On Proportional Giving:
  “I am always thinking about that person that graduated two years ago that decides to give us $10 but is paying off, you know, $45,000 in student debt. That is just as big a contribution …as somebody who’s giving us 10,000 who’s 20 years out.” (Leslie, 14:29)

• On the Hierarchy of Fundraising Roles:
  “The development machine doesn’t work without all the other pieces. …Gift processing team that goes on strike—what are you going to do now? …None of the things that you do are going to work.” (Leslie, 36:32)

• On Long-term Culture Change:
  “I like to think… I want the people who sit in our chairs 10 years from now to be glad we were here doing this work.” (Leslie, 37:42)

• On Calm Leadership:
  “Being a good leader is being calm because we are herd animals… If I show up into a space and I’m anxious… everybody else at that table is going to join me.” (Leslie, 28:23)

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• 02:27–06:37 – Leslie’s background, team design, and focus at Wayne State
• 06:37–10:23 – Innovation as human connection vs. technology
• 10:23–14:29 – Redefining what “working” means in fundraising
• 14:29–18:12 – Leveling the playing field for all donors; first-time and loyalty programs
• 18:12–24:05 – Leadership, handling resistance, and data-driven cultural change
• 25:26–29:26 – Psychological safety, coaching, and calm leadership
• 33:35–40:18 – Critique of fundraising hierarchies and major gift centricity
• 40:18–43:35 – Actionable first steps for organizations of any size
• 43:35–45:00 – Parting thoughts, encouragement for incremental change

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Final Reflections

Leslie Carmona’s insights are a call to action for nonprofit leaders and fundraisers to disrupt outdated hierarchies, honor proportional giving, and cultivate a culture where every gift and giver is valued. The episode is rich with practical strategies and honest leadership wisdom, providing a roadmap for anyone seeking to modernize and humanize their organization’s approach to donor engagement.

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Explore further: Visit MalloryErickson.com/Podcast for detailed show notes, resources, and episode extras.

Transcript

[Leslie Carmona]

Foreign.

[Mallory Erickson]

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[Leslie Carmona]

One of the things that I have found about leadership is it is a lot of emotional work, right? Like when you're working with humans, it's a lot of emotional work with them. Sometimes in a given day you're going to be part therapist, part boss, and that's okay. And again, leaning into those things have actually made me a better leader and they have made my team more successful. So it's not a bad thing. If we're getting a lot of pushback on something I want to do often, I'm going to shoulder that for my team. I want them focused on how do we do this job the best that we can. What does that look like?

[Mallory Erickson]

Hey, my name is Mallory and I'm obsessed with helping leaders in the nonprofit space raise money and run their organizations differently. What the fundraising is a space for real and raw conversations to both challenge and inspire you. Not too long ago, I was in your shoes, uncomfortable with fundraising and unsure of my place in this sector. It wasn't until I started to listen to other experts outside of the fundraising space that I was able to shift my mindset and ultimately shift the way I show up as a leader. This podcast is my way of blending professional and personal development so we, as a collective inside the nonprofit sector can feel good about the work we are doing. Join me every week as I interview some of the brightest minds in the personal and professional development space to help you fundamentally change the way you lead and fundraise. I hope you enjoy this episode. So let's dive in. Welcome everyone. I am so excited to be here today with Leslie Carmona. Leslie, welcome to what the fundraising.

[Leslie Carmona]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so glad to be here.

[Mallory Erickson]

Let's start with you just telling everybody a little bit about you and your work and what brings you to our conversation and then we'll dive in.

[Leslie Carmona]

Yeah, thanks. So my name is Leslie. I am the Senior Director of Donor Experience and Individual Giving at Wayne State University, which is a large urban research institution in the heart of Detroit where I was born and raised. I'm a city girl. Have been most all of my life. I currently live here in the city in a historic district with my husband and my dog. I've been fundraising for longer than I like to say out loud because it really does start to make me feel old. So I'm not going to share that piece, but it's been a long time. I'm one of those rare individuals who came straight out of graduate work and knew fundraising was where I wanted to be. So I know I'm not necessarily the norm, but I have always done this. I love our industry, but I also see that we have a lot of big challenges in front of us. So I'm excited to be here to talk about some of those challenges and some of the opportunities I think are intimately connected to that.

[Mallory Erickson]

Yes, let's just dive right in because I loved our first conversation about this and how you're sort of approaching and thinking through how we meet the moment kind of given everywhere we're at. So tell folks a little bit about kind of what you focus on in your role and both the like, mindset and mechanics. A little bit.

[Leslie Carmona]

Yeah. So my team was, luckily for me, I was able to sort of get, curate it and build it, design it in a way that I thought would create sort of the highest level of collaboration in higher ed, which can often feel pretty large and pretty siloed. So just to give everybody the context, my portfolio of work is pretty wide, so I manage a team of roughly 20 professionals as well as 20 part time student fundraisers. So that includes traditional donor relations, which we call donor experience, as well as annual campaigns. So everything we do as far as direct mail appeals, as well as our digital and integrated campaign side. So that takes that direct mail piece, puts it into the digital space and deploys it that way. Then we also have on that side of the team our student fundraising arm, our digital philanthropy center, which we brought in House in 2023. And then finally, I manage a team of gift officers who raise funds at a leadership annual gift level. So there's eight of those folks as well. So it's kind of a widespread. But the design was thought through and executed in a way that there isn't a function of my team that can operate without the other. Because I've been in higher ed long enough to know that happens a lot where we operate in these big silos and we don't talk to each other. And in my opinion, the donor experience is the thing that ends up suffering. Right. Like when people get communications from Wayne State they don't care what team it's from. It's Wayne State. All Wayne State. So the idea was really to curate that donor experience from the first gift, whatever it may be, up to, whatever that ultimate gift for them may be, whether it's $100 million or $100, whatever that looks like. So I really like to think of our work as sort of call and response, and the left arm knows what the right arm is doing. So we've been really intentional about that, just from a structure standpoint. And then for how the team comes together and works together, I guess I would call us slightly more maybe innovative in some of the work. My team is tired of me saying it, but I want to be aspirational. I want our team and our work to be the one that other organizations and institutions look at and want to be that way or want to do the kind of work we're doing. So instead of trying to always look at what other institutions are doing, we're always really focused in what is our constituency really want and need. What does our community want and need, and how can we support that? The last two years, we've really embraced community centric fundraising principles, and we've rolled that into our work in every space that we can, and we've talked about it in every space that we can. And for those that are listening and are also in higher ed, they know how challenging that kind of change can be. But we've been really lucky.

[Mallory Erickson]

That's amazing. And I'm really inspired a little bit by that piece of kind of not getting distracted by what the industry considers to be innovative and letting innovation be what the community needs at the moment and, like, how we change. And there was something that was sort of coming up for me when. And I'm curious how you think about this. Like, I feel a little funny saying this running a tech company, but I feel like sometimes I usually, like, am, you know, the worst salesperson sometimes for my own stuff, but. But I honestly, like, it's so interesting because I'm like, holding this, the word innovation, which so often just gets associated with technology, automation, like new shiny object things, as opposed to what I hear in your innovation is actually like a little bit of, like, back to basics, but not basics. Right. But it's like that deepening the human connection, creating that web of community, which I think is so important, because, of course, that is innovation. When we've gotten stuck in these transactional ways of fundraising that have turned fundraising into robotic mechanisms, innovation oftentimes is pulling those things out and coming back into these principles, talk to me a little bit how you think about that all the time.

[Leslie Carmona]

I think about that. I think something that the work world has done in general, and this is not just a fundraising or nonprofit specific thing, is we've taken the human out of the work. And I have found that if my focus as I lead my team is this is what that human needs, or this is how I can best support this individual on a human level, I have a much higher performing team because there's a lot of trust built in those spaces. There's a lot of dedication built in those spaces. And so when I thought about how do I build this team to be the most effective, the other big piece was how do we build a culture that people want to show up to every day, where they feel supported, where they want to do this work, where they're excited to be creative. And it's certainly not micromanaging whether or not they're in an office nine to five. Right. It's. It's a different focus on where is the work done best, how is it done best? What does that look like? And the thing I'm always telling my staff, as they often want things to be a bit more black and white than that, I tell them we have to meet our community where it is too. So if we know our law school alum really like text messages, then let's focus on that. They're responsive to that. They're busy professionals. That works really well. So we're trying to be as attuned as we can to how people are responding, meet them where they are, listen to the cues that they're giving us. I can't tell you the number of institutions I've talked to that are like, well, we just always send thank you letters. And I say that's great, but, like, why mail? 75% of your donors are giving online, and they're essentially telling you that's their preferred method of communication. Why aren't you listening? You're just continuing to do what you've always done. So I think innovation, like you said, it often is focused on in the tech space. But I would say the structure of my team is innovative. I think you'd be hard pressed to find another institution with somebody who's managing the exact same things that I'm managing. And I think, you know, we're also doing it really well. We met every goal we had for fiscal year 25. So we have landed somewhere that is working now. We've had to make tweaks. Nothing is Perfect. And we're always still struggling with, with some of the things others are, but it's going really well.

[Mallory Erickson]

Okay. There's so much in there that I want to unpack, so I'm like trying to figure out where I want to start with that. But I think you said this word that always kind of like activates something in me in a good, in a sometimes good way, sometimes not so good way. But you said working, and I love that you said working because you also shared sort of the community centric work that you've been integrating into all these programs. Sometimes I feel like when we talk about fundraising working, we are talking about it in a really like, transactional or like short time frame way. And somebody will say, does that work? Does that fundraising strategy work? And I'm always like, how are we defining working? Are you defining it by you raised a certain amount of money by a certain amount of time? Because then there are a lot of things that could quote, unquote work. Like we know guilt, manipulation, pressure. Like we know how to do those things to make that work. But is working deepening our relationships? Is it creating more multi year commitments, more, less donor kind of falling out of our community and communication. And so I want to hear what, how you define working, because I think that is an important piece of this for me.

[Leslie Carmona]

I'm often looking again at like the full scope. I don't look at a campaign and say, okay, what was the revenue goal and did we meet it? I'm looking at the whole run up for from where we started, what the solicitation looked like, how we're following up with it, what's happening with those donors after. That's why the team structure is so beautiful. Right. We have an annual campaigns team that's working with a donor experience team that's making sure the solicitation looks like the acknowledgement that's coming out after, or if we think the strategy is going to be amplified by some impact and stewardship messaging before that solicitation goes, we do that. If we have a giving community that we're really focused on renewals and we have a leadership annual gift team that can support that with individual outreach. So for us, it's more than just like, how did the revenue come in, it's how did the whole thing operate from start to finish and are we meeting that goal of truly having an integrated collaborative team that is holistically approaching the donor experience? That's what success means to me. That is a very streamlined donor experience across the board, regardless of giving level it does not matter to me if you are giving us a dollar or you are giving us $15,000. I want you to feel equally good about that decision, no matter what. And I want you to feel like we have appropriately engaged you then into our donor community and talk to you about the impact of donors across the whole scale in a way that makes sense. So for us, yes, from an institutional standpoint, it's always going to be revenue, but from a team standpoint, it's larger than that. For me, the other thing we've been very focused on for us are donor numbers, because we've seen in higher ed that decline. My team for the last three years has bucked that trend. I care a whole lot more about that because that means we're inviting people to join us in a way that's resonating and is inviting them at any level to do whatever they feel comfortable with, and they're sticking with us. So our retention is high, and we had 400 more donors this year than last year. That's not necessarily happening across the higher ed landscape. So I'm really proud of that. That feels really exciting for our team.

[Mallory Erickson]

Okay, I love this. I want to ask a little bit of a tactical question there about, like, how you're inviting people in that you feel like is leading to that. Like, is it about options for engagement? Is it that piece that you really are prioritizing touch points, no matter their giving level, and you're giving everybody that same treatment? Like, just talk to me mechanically a little bit about that.

[Leslie Carmona]

Yeah, I mean, there were a couple of things that I started when I first arrived at Wayne State about 10 years ago, that it was my attempt to sort of level out the playing field, because I came into an institution that had built this giant tower of major gift fundraising without any sort of foundation underneath it. And so what I felt we really needed to do was stop thinking so short term. And you and I talked about this. Mallory, this is the hill I'm going to die on. So everybody is listening. If you'd like to join me, let me know. The importance of proportional giving for the future of our development programs. And so I did some things initially to just try to get that sorted. Right. To know that it wasn't just donors who were giving 50,000 or more who were getting all of these things and being invited to stuff and being engaged in that way. I am always thinking about that person that graduated two years ago that decides to give us $10 but is paying off, you know, $45,000 in student debt. That is just as big a contribution to our institution as somebody who's giving us 10,000 who's 20 years out. Right. So understanding what type of sacrifice and decision making is going into that from jump, I think has led to us having a stronger pool of annual donors that feel engaged with us because we're not reserving the best of the stuff we do just for the top end of this metaphorical pyramid. So we really have thought about what are we going to do for the people who give their very first gift to the institution. We're going to roll out the red carpet for them. We're going to engage them in ways that you typically probably wouldn't think to do. But we figured out ways to do it that feel really personal, that make sense for our overall Wayne State community and for our donors, for the things that we do and that are important to our institution and in ways that don't cost us a ton of money. Right. A little bit of staff time to make people feel really good about giving that first $10, $5 gift to our organization. It's simple, it's inexpensive, it does take staff time. But I've worked with organizations who've used volunteers to do the same type of thing. So we started a first time givers program. And then one of the other things that we did is we created a consecutive giving community. Because what Wayne State had was a lot of really loyal donors, which was pretty incredible considering sort of the lack of foundational, sort of traditional fundraising mechanisms that we had around acknowledgement, recognition. We didn't really have that when I got there. We had some really great stuff. We just hadn't really put the money, time or effort into that specific space. But, you know, we really figured those pieces out, got the foundations built, and then realized, wow, we really have some people who've been giving every single year for 20 years, 30 years, like, just incredible. So instead of being really focused on, I just want to talk to people that are giving a thousand every year. We said, let's just talk to the people that are really loyal. Because what an incredible thing. And it's not devoid of strategy. Don't get me wrong. Like, we still have revenue goals we have to meet, so we do have to be thoughtful about that. But in focusing on things like consecutive and loyalty giving, we found ways to identify great prospects for plan gifts. We found ways to engage with people, really get them feeling closer to things like the president of our institution as well. So it's worked really well to kind of reframe our thinking from Always monetary value to what is displaying excitement and engagement in giving to Wayne State.

[Mallory Erickson]

Okay, I love that. And I can imagine, you know, you said a little bit ago, you were talking about, like, sometimes my team wants things to be a little bit more binary, right. And I. So I'm thinking about this. Everything that you're talking about and that balance between the metrics and the pressure, and particularly when scarcity mindset comes in, you know, all the things that pull our nervous systems and stress responses away from investing time and energy in what you're talking about. And I'm curious, like, how you as a leader, actually, before we talk about, like, the team, how you as a leader, like, hold that line. I can imagine you get. You have to do a lot of inner work, or I would have to do a lot of inner work to, like, stand in what I truly believe and know. And even if it's not what everybody else is doing, I think one of the things I love about you and the work that you're doing is, and the innovation side of it is that it is not what any. What is so innovative is that it is not what folks are doing, right? It is not the innovation that other people are talking about. And to go to. To do something differently than what your peers are doing in other spaces, to have your team structured differently and conviction around this, that is true innovation. And so I want to know, like, how you as a leader, like, stand.

[Leslie Carmona]

In that sometimes not perfectly. I will say, like, yeah, obviously I have tough days. I will say I'm really lucky to work with leadership at our institution. That has put a lot of belief and faith in me, right. Like to give me these opportunities to build, which this is now the third time at Wayne State that I've been allowed to build something, to create something, and that is what I'm really good at. So I've been very lucky to have that support. One of the things that I have found about leadership is it is a lot of emotional work, right? Like when you're working with humans, it's a lot of emotional work with them. Sometimes in a given day, you're going to be part therapist, part boss, and that's okay. And again, leaning into those things have actually made me a better leader and they have made my team more successful. So it's not a bad thing. If we're getting a lot of pushback on something I want to do often, I'm going to shoulder that for my team. I want them focused on how do we do this job the best that we can. What does that look like. And let me navigate the political rat nest that is any higher ed institution, or any large organization for that matter. Right. It's everywhere. It's not special. So I try to take those pieces on because then I've gotten good at it. Right. 10 years in higher ed will give you a pretty good gut of how you can get from point A to point B. The other thing I want to say for the people who are in higher ed that are listening to this, I know that I have been lucky to move things at the speed I have been able to move it. It is not always possible and it is frustrating sometimes, but I have found if I can lean in on the data, higher ed loves that. Right. So an example that we had a really awful shooting at a university here in Michigan a number of years ago. And one of the things that my team wanted to do was send an appeal to our donors for that university student emergency fund, which is well aligned with community centric fundraising standards. We wanted to do it. We felt really passionate about it, and we did. Right. And I didn't necessarily ask for a ton of permission. I knew the risk we were taking, but I also knew the potential reward was far greater. And once it was out. And the response was wonderful. Right. The number of messages we got back from people that were so proud of their alma mater for having taken this step to help another institution in the state was like. It was overwhelming. And so it's been easier and easier over time for me to say, okay, we've done these things. We've made these shifts in language. We shifted our approach in a number of different spaces. It's not impacting the bottom line. In fact, it's obviously increasing that. And what I have found is if I lean into those spaces, the innovation becomes a little bit easier because I'm speaking in a language that really resonates with people in higher ed. It's always about the data. So if I can show them that if we try and we're not always successful. Right. And we have to be okay with that. We have to be okay with, we're going to try some stuff and it's not going to work. But what's the worst thing that's going to happen? It's what I tell my team when they're anxious about something new or trying. What's the worst thing that's going to happen? It's probably not that all of our donors are going to stop giving to us. Right. We didn't have a single negative reaction to sending an appeal for another institution in the state, not a single one. We had only positive. And when we talked about what's the worst thing that could happen, that was it, right? People might not feel great about it, but it didn't happen. So we're often trying to root some of our decision making in, okay, we want to try this innovative thing, we want to do this thing that nobody else is doing. Let's poke holes in it, right? What could happen? And so often I will spout an idea to my management team and then I'll say, okay, let's just see if we can sync that idea. And then we go from there and if we can poke a bunch of holes in it, we won't do it. But if we can't, it's a calculated risk and it makes sense. And then we do it. And again, I have leaders that trust me. I'm lucky for that. It worked hard to build that and that is part of why we get to do these things.

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[Mallory Erickson]

Well, I, you know, it's so interesting because I do a lot of work around like stress and our stress response and how that influences what we do and the decisions that we make and the connection that we're able to cultiv, cultivate with folks and really like looking at the nervous system and I'm an executive coach and so hearing you like the practice that you're using, right, Rooted in curiosity, like really just saying, like, here's an idea, there's an openness to it, then like we're curious about what might happen. That sort of like catastrophic thinking exercise around, like, what's the worst possible outcome? Like, I just want to highlight those for folks because those are like real straight strategies around, like putting something out there and exploring it. Because it's so easy to throw something out there and get right into like, well, that won't work for our donors because. Or somebody has one donor in mind and they're like so and so's gonna hate that. So we can't do it, you know.

[Leslie Carmona]

And you're just like, trust them. I promise you can do that.

[Mallory Erickson]

Right. But even if we don't name the donor, right, we are thinking in the back of our head about that person. And we're like, our donors are to be upset about this. And it's like just this limiting belief or assumption or interpretation that gets in the way of us asking these more curious questions that open up the possibilities of doing things differently. And so I just like, that whole practice that you showed there, I think is really amazing. And it keeps all of the people in the room's nervous system in a more open state too. So everybody's just opened that level of exploration and, and it sounds to me a little bit like, I don't want to say trial and error because that, that doesn't feel like fully reflective, but this like, look, we're making the best decision we can based on this moment and what we think, you know, the true risks are. And maybe once in a while we're going to be wrong, but like, most of the time it's going to keep us moving and it's going to keep us in connection at a speed that that binary thinking would never have done.

[Leslie Carmona]

Yeah, I mean, we make informed decisions. We don't make shots in the dark asking really good questions. You know, when people ask me in other conversations, like, what's the key to good leadership? Which I think is kind of a silly question, but in a lot of places I've had to answer it. One of the things I always say is asking good questions, like, if your team is coming to you with a great idea, instead of saying, that's not how we've done it here for X number of years, we can't do it that way. Ask them questions, find out why. And yeah, you may end up together as a group, kind of logicing yourself out of that and like finding that's not the path, but maybe it's just tweaked a little bit. And that gives people a lot more buy in into the work than Just saying, nope, we can't do that. And here's why. Right. Like, I may know in my heart that this one idea, this one staff member has, is not something that we really as an institution could do. But I'm going to try to lead them to that same understanding and by asking them questions that will get to that answer. And that happens all the time. The other thing I always tell people is being a good leader is being calm because we are herd animals and we respond to each other. And so if I show up into a space and I'm anxious and I'm reacting to something with a lot of anxiety, everybody else at that table is going to join me. And that goes for also when you're managing up. I've had instances where I've worked with leaders that are high anxiety and if I can kind of combat that high anxiety with a lot of calmness, usually they'll come back and join me in that space. And a big plug for executive coaches. I had one, she was the best. Taught me a lot of about how to be the kind of leader I've always wanted to be. And so it's a wonderful exercise for those of us that can do it to have somebody kind of take us through how do we have that sort of peaceful power and in how we respond to things and how we lead others to be in that same space because really, what's the worst thing that can happen?

[Mallory Erickson]

Yeah, okay. I love that. And I, I, you know, like our nervous systems are co regulate, like our energy is contagious. So that was a hard leadership lesson I learned early in my career. I found myself like managing a program when I was 22 and I was managing a bunch of people older than me, this whole school, middle school program. And my energy was so contagious and I was definitely an anxious person. And I started to be able to see like when I walked into the room what it did to the people around me. And it was really hard to look at. That's when I had my first executive coach very luckily and who really like helped me me like hold a mirror up to that. So yeah. And then when you can walk in in a more calm and grounded state, that energy is also contagious. Like that nervous system. Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett does some really interesting. In her book How Emotions are Made, talks about this study around people sitting next to folks in hospital beds and how their heart beats and like nerve. Everything will sort of like sync with each other. And so that's just such a good reminder. I mean really in Everything in life. But certainly, as we're trying to lead.

[Leslie Carmona]

These teams, yeah, it is absolutely contagious. And often I'll have a staff member who is more, like, prone to that anxiety. And I just ask a lot of questions, and I. You know, when they're coming to me with questions, I try to get them to reframe those things. As, you know, instead of asking me that, give me a recommendation and allow me to sort of respond to it. Because a lot of the time, their gut is correct, but they just don't have the confidence. And so I will try to get them to flip it. Right. Instead of asking me a question, tell me what you're thinking, and you and I can talk about it like colleagues. Instead of that weird hierarchical power dynamic that I know a lot of us end up in at some point in our career, maybe even most of our career, I try to break that down a bit. Like, you're a professional. Give me your professional opinion. You were hired here to do a job, and it's because I thought you were the best person to do it. Own that, have that. Have that autonomy. So that really helps them. You know, sometimes it's harder with some people than with others to kind of get them out of that, Whether it's because of a past experience they had or just kind of, you know, even just the way you're brought up can really change how you kind of approach those things. So it can take time, but generally, I find it's really worth it.

[Mallory Erickson]

Yeah, I love that. Interesting. It's like, I'm thinking about practivated, and we have our coach inside. An AI coach inside there, Tivi. And I was. That was just making me think about, like, does she do enough of that, like, flipping it kind of back on the person to, like, bring something forward? But I'll tell you, so much of my coaching and even how I thought about building that product. I've always said a lot of the work that I do is actually about removing things, not adding things. Right. It's like, you know what to do. There's all these things that are getting in your way of being able to, like, take action on that, whether it's fear or resistance or a narrative that somewhere. And the goal, like, we want to remove those inner barriers. Because I really believe, I think, like you, that people have a lot of the answers that they're looking for, and it's really just helping them access that trust themselves, build that confidence. So I really. I love that focus. Also, I have to give a shout out while we're on this show because this is my second Wayne State interview. I interviewed Arash Jankobit. He's the head of the fear Research Lab at Wayne State years ago, and he wrote the book Afraid. And it was an amazing interview. And he taught me so much about fear and how we deal with fear that I bring into my practice all the time. So this actually in some ways also feels like this beautiful full circle moment to be talking about this when like I learned so much from him.

[Leslie Carmona]

That's really cool. Yeah, that's really great.

[Mallory Erickson]

Is there anything else that I am not asking you that I should be asking you?

[Leslie Carmona]

I mean, I think one of the things that you and I sort of quickly talked about when we talked the first time is something I would be interested to talk more about just generally with other people in the industry as well, is the way our hyper fixation on major gifts and principal gifts, what it's sort of done to how we approach fundraising in general, but also how we approach the fundraising professional, right? So like we've created this incredible hierarchy of how we focus our resources, right? More money is spent in major gift and principal gift land because we can get the best return on investment there. I'm not arguing that, that, I'm not arguing. What I am arguing is, is that a really short sighted way of looking at our work and also is it creating inside of our organizations a hierarchy that also doesn't belong there? So I'll give you the example of I have leadership annual gift officers closing,000 to 24,999 gifts. That's their focus area. And I'm telling them these gifts are just as important as major gifts, Right? Because it's proportional to where the person is and what they're able to do. It means as much. It could be just as big a sacrifice as a million dollar gift for this individual. But we're not going to pay them as much and we're not going to look for a seasoned, a professional for that role. And so it sort of creates a hierarchy inside of the organization that builds this idea of sort of lesser than and it continues to reinforce it. Because we're saying our annual donors are lesser than our major gift donors, right? We're saying that the people working in these spaces are lesser than. They're not as important as the people closing major gifts or principal gifts. Have you heard this where people say, I've heard this for years, ever since I started this field. The major gift officers are our thoroughbreds. You heard that one?

[Mallory Erickson]

Yes.

[Leslie Carmona]

It makes me insane. I'M like, so, okay, so then what's gift processing? Like, what are they? Right? Because, like, none of the work that a major gift team is doing works without all of these other pieces that are happening. And so if I could do one thing inside of my organization right now is I would take the hierarchy that has been created by our focus always being revenue and our focus always being some giant campaign that we have to be in, and I would turn it on its side, and I would try to change the culture, which is a very hard thing to do, around this idea that there are certain positions that are more important than others. Right. Because the development machine doesn't work without all the other pieces. You have a gift processing team that goes on strike. What are you going to do now? Right. Your data team stops showing up. What are you going to do now? None of the things that you do are going to work. So if we don't start placing more value on those pieces, I worry about what that means for sort of like, the future of our industry.

[Mallory Erickson]

Okay. Wow. Yes. I'm so glad you brought this up. So I'm curious, like, what do you think the implications would be? And I don't actually mean the, like, naysayers. What do you think would happen to fundraising? Like, what's the possibility if we break out of that model?

[Leslie Carmona]

I think it's more personal and it's longer lasting. Right. I hear from major gift officers all the time, and they're like, you know, I just feel like I'm cold calling for a $50,000 gift. And I hear this all across the industry. This is nothing specific to my organization. It's everywhere. Right. People are coming to conferences, and they're saying, this feels transactional. Well, you know, when it doesn't feel transactional is when you've had a relationship with someone at an institution since the moment you made your very first gift, then by the time you're logically asked for 50,000, that's not a cold call. You know what it's like to be a donor that's valued at an organization. Well, before you get to the point where you might have the capacity to give something like a $50,000 gift, and that's. That's a dream, right? That's the dream. That's the blue sky for me. And I know that that kind of shift is a long one. Right. But when I think about the work that I'm doing with my team right now, I like to think, and I tell them I want the people who sit in our chairs 10 years from now to be glad we were here doing this work, because it's made their work easier and better and more personal. Right. So the donors that my leadership annual gift officers are working with right now, they might close a $500 gift, but that person is getting the concierge like, experience, experience than a major gift owner is going to get way down the line. Right. So it's not the first interaction they're having with philanthropy at Wayne State. It could be by that point the 80th. Right. There could be so much between that. But we talk about being an industry of relationship, but I don't know that that's actually what we're doing. If all we're doing is trying to start the relationship at the moment where that person has the most capacity to give us the most. Like, is that really a relationship? I ask these questions in my head often. I'm always thinking about these things.

[Mallory Erickson]

I mean, 100%. I think we talk about transformational giving, but we are only looking at money. Like, we're like, don't be transactional, but we're just tracking money and we're building all these structures around money. And so like something I will say to organizations a lot is I'm just like, don't tell me what you care about, show me what you track. Like, because don't tell me that you care about community and all these things. But then your budget tells a different story. Your KPIs tell a different story. Like that alignment is so critical. If we're saying we want fundraisers and you're thinking about it on structural level that I actually had never considered before, for which I so appreciate you talking about. I had always thought about it just in terms of like how the fundraiser prioritizes their day to day activity. Right. I'm like, they're just told like, get out there and build relationships and build connected, real relationships. But they're not being tracked on anything related to that. They're just being tracked on money. And it's like, what do we are getting exactly what we have designed for. I think that is like the really like, thing that you are also clarifying in this whole other way, which is like, we need to either stop acting surprised when this is the system because we have designed exactly for the outcomes that we are getting here.

[Leslie Carmona]

Yeah, you want transactional, this is the way to do it. And I'm not naive enough to believe that a small nonprofit in the city of Detroit with one development person is able to do, do all of it. Right. Like, I mean, there's A whole slew of other issues with what we're doing to development professionals and smaller shops. So people will come to me and say, I want to do the things you're doing, but I'm only one person, how do I do that? And so I usually try to brainstorm with them around how can we utilize volunteers? Where are there opportunities to start to nurture your entire donor life cycle, not just the top end of it? Because in the reality, if you do that, if you're just top end, if you're only thinking about major and principal gift levels, and you neglect everything below that, your fundraising pipeline will dry up. It may not be now, it may not be 10 years from now, but it will happen. Right? Because your first gift to an organization is not usually $2 million. It starts somewhere. And I think as the world continues to change and people have access to everything and the Internet's not going anywhere, there's more expectation from people to be engaged in a gift that is $25 to our student emergency fund. And I think that's reasonable. Like, if you're going to give what's important to you, you should know that it's important to us too. And that doesn't mean just when you're able to give us $100,000. And so I think if we could at least put some of our time and thought into what does that whole donor life cycle look like. When we designed at least the donor experience side of the house and now every other piece that I supervise, I made this weird little diagram of, like, what I believe the donor life cycle to be. I will not show this to anyone anymore. Actually, no, I do show my team. But the idea was we need solicitation, acknowledgement, recognition and engagement for every phase of the life cycle. Right? And no one life cycle, part of the life cycle is more important than the other. Because if you don't do the right thing with a first time donor, that's all they'll ever be. And if you don't do the right stuff with an annual donor, they're done being an annual donor. So knowing that we had mechanisms in place to engage, recognize those people at every single stop along their potential life cycle with us was vital. And we have those things and they are things that happen. Some of them very much automatically, some of them a little bit more staff heavy. But there are ways to do this work that will not break the bank or make it so that you have to redeploy your whole team. I think there are ways to do some of this that is just general. And if we pause and I know there's a million pressures that come to us from the people that are above us, that have different views on what our work should be. And so I don't want to appear as if I'm naive and that this blue sky version that I'm talking about is just like, you know, right there. It's not. I know change is hard, but if more of us start talking about these things and showing the value of thinking about donors, donor relationships, gifts, amounts, proportional giving, we think about these things differently. I think over time, we could make some change happen.

[Mallory Erickson]

I mean, you are making some change happen. And I think the success that you're seeing and speaking to it is a incredible, like, model and example for folks. And I'm sure it didn't happen overnight there either. Like, maybe it happened, but. Right. Like, we could probably spend a whole other episode talking about the phases and stages and all of those things. But I think what you're giving people is a lot of different options for a first step. Right. Like, there's a lot of things that you shared today, and people can pick whatever their first step is. Maybe it is like creating that for one life cycle stage that currently doesn't have it or something like that. And so, you know, baby steps. I do a lot around kind of like tiny habits and how you start to build momentum around these things. So. I love that you said that. I'm so grateful for this conversation. I could talk to you forever. But thank you for the work that you're doing. Thank you for the hills that you're willing to die on. I totally agree with you. Like, the best way forward is, like, more conversations about these things. More. More people asking questions, more people bringing up, like, why do we do it that way? Or isn't this maybe leading to this? And I think that we have to look at ourselves and, like, look at some of this hard stuff in order to make change, too.

[Leslie Carmona]

Yeah, I couldn't agree more and always happy to talk. So if there is another opportunity to chat or bring in some other people as well, I think it'd be a lot of fun.

[Mallory Erickson]

Amazing. I love it. Thank you so much for joining me today.

[Leslie Carmona]

Yeah, thanks for having me. It's been really wonderful.

[Mallory Erickson]

I hope today's episode inspired or challenged you to think differently. For additional takeaways, tips, show notes, and more about our amazing guest and sponsors, head on over to Malloryerickson.com podcast. And if you didn't know, hosting this podcast isn't the only thing I do Every day I I coach, guide and help fundraisers and leaders just like you. Inside of my program, the Power Partners Formula Collective. Inside the program, I share my methods, tools and experiences that have helped me fundraise millions of dollars and feel good about myself in the process. To learn more about how I can help you, visit MalloryErickson.com PowerPartners Last but not least, if you enjoyed this episode, I'd love to encourage you to share. Share it with a friend you know would benefit or leave a review. I'm so grateful for all of you and the good hard work you're doing to make our world a better place. I can't wait to see you in the next episode.

[Practivated Host/Announcer]

Fundraising is hard. Every donor conversation carries pressure and most fundraisers are expected to just figure it out through trial and error. That's why we built Practivated, the first ever AI powered donor conversation simulator made just for fundraisers. It's a safe, judgment free space to practice your pitch, refine your storytelling, and build the confidence that drives real results for your mission. Because conversations move missions forward, with Practivated, you and your team can practice anytime, get real feedback instantly and walk into donor meetings ready, not rehearsed, but prepared. See how practice changes everything? Try practivated today at www.practivated.com and start building confidence. One conversation at a.