Tammy Zonker (2:57)

Yes. Thank you. Thank you so much. So I have been in the fundraising profession for nearly 30 years and have collectively helped raise more than a billion dollars now. And it's just been such a privilege and I can't imagine doing anything else as a career.

Mallory Erickson (Interviewer) (3:19)

Right.

Tammy Zonker (3:19)

I've got a passion for fundraising and a passion for fundraisers. Right. And so all of that has kind of brought me to this place. Like, I'm a. I'm a student of this work of fundraising of philanthropy. And I've watched as the sector moved from very agency or organization centric fundraising. Right. Like we do this and we do that. Please give money. Aren't we great? Give. And then came relationship fundraising with Ken Burnett, of course. Still very relevant. I think he just published the third edition, 600 page book. And then came Donor centered Fundraising with Penelope Burke, which really centered the donor. It centered the donor as the hero. It gave us lots of tools based on donor surveys and feedback. What do donors want in order to keep giving and to give even more generously? And I lived it. You lived it, like donor centered fundraising, it gave me tools. I raised a lot of money and trained a lot of organizations how to raise money using that model. And I love so many parts of that. But there was the shadow side, right? The shadow side where kind of went awry, where we got into the realm of power dynamics, where the donor now, not because by design, because we didn't have the courage to stand up and have a partner conversation. Right. We kind of acquiesced and we allowed donors to begin guiding us down the mission creep or scope creep path. There were just so many shadow sides to it. And then of course came community centered fundraising, which, oh, it speaks to my soul because of its commitment. It's so deeply rooted in inclusion and equity and fairness and justice. It is like if there was like the. A good human. It's community centered fundraising. Right. And yet there are some shadow sides to that too. I mean, does it raise as much money? Is there an adoption curve that really costs us as we're working toward implementing something as noble as community centered fundraising. And just like you, I mean, we both speak at a lot of conferences, we talk to a lot of fundraisers, we work with a lot of fundraisers. And I saw my clients, just our peers, our colleagues, struggling. Like, I want to adopt community centered fundraising. I believe in those ideals, that fairness, that justice. I want to work in a Community. I want to belong to a community. And I'm under so much pressure to raise money. And I know this raises money, right? At what cost? That's a conversation, right? And so I really got to the place where I was hearing people say, well, we're kind of doing both, but we're doing it kind of quietly because we didn't want anyone to think that we were not centered in DEI and justice. We weren't aligned with that. But yet we're still doing some donor centered things because that's what our donors like and that's what our donors do. And I don't get bored. Pushback on that. And so it got me thinking, well, why is it an either or can it be a yes? And. And that began the exploration of the book. And so the book is called Calling All Heroes, combining the best of donor centered and community centered Fundraising for greater Impact. So it truly is about unifying both of these approaches, acknowledging what doesn't work and addressing it right. Shadow side of each of those models and taking it head on.

Mallory Erickson (Interviewer) (7:21)

Okay, so I love anything that is like bridge building in this space and takes things out of a binary either or and starts to talk about what does it look like to make fundraising feel better to fundraisers, to donors, to communities, to organizations. And I see that woven into how you talk about all these pieces in the book. And Rachel d', Souza, one of the co founders of Community Centric Fundraising, heard and I have had a lot of conversations too, and she came on what the fundraising to talk about this like donor centric, community centric weave. What are the pieces really, to your point of like relationship based practices and what you would do in any healthy relationship that we kind of quickly think maybe we have to throw away because it was in a donor centric playbook and we don't want to, you know, deviate from the noble ideas that we're holding. But we've sort of like lost the plot a little bit there. And I see you in the book, like pulling it back together. So I want to dive into all of that before we get there. I want to talk about the title because you shared with me something really interesting about using the word heroes and some feedback that you got along the way. And I'll admit that for me too, that word, I was like, ooh, like, I don't know. That word makes me super uncomfortable. But I also love things that make me uncomfortable because I'm like, okay, that's my gross edge, but talk to us about that.

Tammy Zonker (8:48)

Yes, yes. So Calling All Heroes Which I thought was a very fun name, right. Calling all heroes. Really acknowledging that, yes, the donor is the hero, the volunteer is the hero, the program officers, the service delivery folks are heroes. Certainly our community leaders and advocates and ambassadors, certainly the people who participate in our programs, Right. Who have the courage to say, I want to get from here to there and in community, I want to tap into community to get the resources, the skills, the knowledge, the healing, whatever it is that they need, become the amazing person they were born to be and to have their own ripple effect in community. So, like, yes, all heroes, and one hero is not above another. That the problems and the challenges that we are working to solve are bigger than any single hero. And so I actually have a keynote of that topic, and I had delivered it in a couple of places. I was on a panel, and one of the panelists actually said, well, I don't want to be a hero. Like, that is not my aspiration. And so that got me thinking. Yes, you know, a. I recognize that not everyone aspires to be a hero. Right. They just want to do something good. That doesn't mean they aren't a hero in someone else's eye. And so that was part of the process to getting to that word hero. And then, like, you, you were one of my advanced readers who read the manuscript before, like went into production and gave feedback, gave a beautiful endorsement. Thank you. One of the other advanced readers was this brilliant woman. Her name is Maia McGill, and she is the founder of the Inclusive Philanthropy Institute. She is a woman of color, and we've had conversations. She's been on my podcast. She knows how deeply committed I am to my own growth and education and just evolution and understanding, you know, the. The issues and the lived experiences of, you know, our brothers and sisters and friends and colleagues of color. So she read the book. She's like. And she gave a beautiful endorsement. She gave some language suggestions, which, again, thank you. And one of the things that she said was the word hero is triggering because it has been associated with saviorism, and it's in many cases done more harm than good. But it was the title of the book, for goodness sake. So what am I to do about that? Right? I just, like, really, I did a deep dive introspection on do I change the title? Because that is not my intent is to perpetuate some kind of saviorism. And even in the start of the book, I acknowledge that I'm a white, cisgendered woman. Right. And so I really needed to study and invite people to contribute to this conversation for my own education and so that I could honor everyone in the process. And so this word hero is triggering and I got to thinking about my own childhood and I might be just a teens older than you, Mallory.

Mallory Erickson (Interviewer) (12:23)

Nobody'd know it.

Tammy Zonker (12:24)

No, you're fine. But I remember, I remember this series, the Wonder Woman TV series. Lynda Carter, she was this mild mannered, humble government worker who when a crisis occurred, turned into Wonder Woman, right? She had the, the Lasso of Truth. She had the, the jewelry cuffs that could deflect bullets. She had an invisible jet. I mean, what. And I admired her. I admired her intelligence, I admired her sense of justice and how she was a helper, right? And I got really like, what was it specifically about the hero that called to me? And it was courage, it was selflessness, like really caring about others above your own safety and concerns. It was integrity. It was. I found her inspiring. And certainly she had a sense of fairness and justice that was just in her DNA. And I think that is really what a hero is, whether your childhood hero was Wonder Woman or Black Panther or Green Hornet. And so I say let's take back the word hero. Let's take it back from that negative connotation, the unintended, like this whole saviorism thing intended or not, like the unhealthy use of that word. And let's take it back into what it really was like something about justice and integrity and community and doing what's right above your own self interest. So when I call all heroes, I'm talking about everyone in the community coming together for the greater good.

Mallory Erickson (Interviewer) (14:06)

I really appreciate that perspective and I think it's interesting, it's feels a little bit to me like how we've started to explore the word like leader and like leadership differently. Right. Like 10 years ago, I feel like I only really saw one type of leader and, or one type of leadership fully appreciated. And there's this sort of opening. We think about things in such a hierarchical manner because of the society that we're in and the structures of capitalism and all those things, right? So we're like, like when you were like, oh, there's lots of different superheroes, I was like, oh yeah, and there's no better, you know, between Spider man and Batman. Although I'm probably making a few five year olds very angry when I say that. But you know, like, so I think that's such an interesting way of, of thinking about it for you. Like, I think one of the things that I really appreciate about this book is I do feel like, you're like sticking your neck out there a little bit. Like, you have an amazing career and business and like speaking business and you could have stayed safely in the donor centric community. And you are a leader in that community. And you're really putting yourself out there to advocate for the values that you believe make our sector better and make the world better and make people better. So talk to me a little bit about, like, your intention in doing this. Like, what do you really hope this does for our sector?

Tammy Zonker (15:46)

Yeah, well, you're right. It would be easy to stay safe and given a keynote, my Calling All Heroes keynote. And a few people have come up to me afterwards and said, I would never ever stand in front of a room and say that because I'm a white man or I'm a white woman. And it really is risky, but I do it because I, I believe in it. Right? That it's not donor centered, it's not community centered, it's human centered. And that that is really what this sector is about. It's about reaching out, having a voice and a voice that amplifies the best of what's possible, that equips people with different ways of thinking and different ways of taking action and broadening the way that we operate in a way that is inclusive, that is rooted deeply in community and justice and fairness, and moves the needles, the needle. I fear that when we spend so much time debating which one is right, we're losing precious time, we're spending precious energy and resource that could be better focused on just continuing to do the work. And if we can come together, we talk about heroes. And I think one of the things that in my exploration of heroes like the Justice League, each of those heroes are powerful in their own right. Right? You said Batman or Spider man, right? They're all powerful, the people who participate in our programs, whether it's the first generation college student who's got a wonderful scholarship, whether it is the grateful patient who, thanks to researchers and a great clinical team, beat cancer, or someone who's just so grateful because you help their loved one pass through hospice with such dignity and, you know, such heart, compassion. Like, they are all heroes, as are the fundraisers out there. Like, oh my gosh, Mallory, you're a hero of mine. Like, I totally admire you and learn from you and just respect you and appreciate being in a community with you. So the point is, each of our heroes in our sector, each of our constituents, if you will, are heroes in their own right. But it's when we come together that we Collectively, like the Justice League, we collectively are more powerful. There's an exponential power when we come together with all of those gifts and talents. And that was important to me is that we, we need to just get back to work and move the needle, but in a way that brings the best of both of these approaches and these methodologies together in this human centered way to keep us moving.

Mallory Erickson (18:37)

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Mallory Erickson (Interviewer) (19:21)

And I feel like what I appreciate, you know, one of the things I appreciate about you that I felt in this book too is the like invitation for dialogue. That's something I said a lot about what the fundraising like I was sharing with you. I was really nervous to put. I think you do a beautiful job in the book, like really honoring the co founders and creators and visionaries behind these different methodologies and you know, talk about VU and community centric fundraising and keep directing people back to the website and really like honor the sort of like the leaders in that space. And I appreciate that what you're inviting here is dialogue about that which was something I really wanted with what the fundraising too is like I'm going to bring up topics that like were not my, you know, I did not originate the concept. I did not like. I mean I brought in a lot of science where I was like, I know a very surface level of, of this. But what I want is for like, here's how I'm thinking about these things and trying to weave this together. Can we like start a more nuanced conversation about this? And I really like, you put so many really tangible, incredible strategies and practices in front of people in this book. And I also feel and hear even in the way you talk about the shadow sides or the, it's really in a like dialogue, an invitation of dialogue. Right? Like you'll say in the book, like some of the critiques of are blank and just like the phrasing the way you do that is like, let's just talk about it. So is that a real goal of yours? Is that not that everybody's going to love everything in the book or that they aren't going to disagree with certain things, but that like, we're going to just break open this like kind of paralysis we have of either or. Yes.

Tammy Zonker (21:09)

It was important to me that we begin dialogue, that we really come together in partnership. Whether it's a fundraiser, working with a donor and addressing power dynamics, course correcting in dialogue, not acquiescing to assumptions or stereotypes. It's up to us to have those dialogues. Likewise, to have a dialogue between those that are deeply rooted and practicing community centered, as well as those that are still very attached and committed to donor centered. Let's talk about what's working, what's not working, because in everything in life, there's the strength and there's the shadow side. Right. There's the benefit and maybe some of the unintended consequences. And it's about balancing, it's about choosing, trying it out and then iterating. Like, is my approach to human centered fundraising, is it perfect? No. And I say that it's not perfect, but let's start here and then let's come together and evolve it and iterate and make it better for everyone. Right. So definitely inviting lived experiences and inviting other thoughts to kind of crack things open and just look at them differently. I talk a lot. There's an entire chapter about power dynamics. And of course that's one of the shadow sides of donor centered fundraising. Right. Especially when we're working with major donors, so. Or board members, people who have usually more wealth, maybe a little older, more influence.

Mallory Erickson (Interviewer) (22:47)

Right.

Tammy Zonker (22:47)

That hierarchy we're speaking of. So it just becomes challenging. It becomes, especially for younger fundraisers or just fundraisers who are under so much pressure to close a gift, they don't want to push back on a stereotype, on a misconception, on mission creep. And so I just try to give tools to really own your power, engage as a partner. And we both agree wholeheartedly that all of this community, whether it's fundraising or volunteerism, like whatever we are doing in community is deeply rooted in belief and values, alignment. And if someone is like really not aligned, they're not your people. And I quote James Baldwin in the book, it's one of my all time favorite quotes. You've probably heard me speak of it from the stage and he said, if we can agree to disagree and still love each other unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my right to exist. And to me, that's the showstopper. And you really only know that if you engage in dialogue. And more times than not, in my experience, we find enough shared beliefs and values, we find enough common ground that we can move forward together and create something that's really beautiful. And I. Oh, the intent.

Mallory Erickson (Interviewer) (24:20)

Okay. I love everything that you just said. And I feel like one of the things I'm hearing in there that I think a lot about too, is how we define, like, what's working. You know, you've said a few times on the call, like, why don't want to not do what's working? Or I don't want to push back because this is working. And I think one of the fundamental questions between, or as you look at community centric fundraising and donor centric fundraising is how we define what working means. Right. Because it's like working at what cost. And what I love about what you're saying, though, is a sense of consciousness.

Mallory Erickson (24:58)

Right.

Mallory Erickson (Interviewer) (24:58)

Because if your goal, if I think there are decisions that somebody could make to say we never want to fundraise in a way that gives any power to donors, and that is a conscious choice that an organization should make, and they should consciously know what that means for their fundraising. I think where the pain comes in is without full consciousness and.

Mallory Erickson (Podcast Host - Closing) (25:23)

Right.

Mallory Erickson (Interviewer) (25:23)

Like, we can make a righteous decision. That's our choice.

Mallory Erickson (Podcast Host - Closing) (25:27)

Right.

Mallory Erickson (Interviewer) (25:28)

And we should know. We should be in dialogue about the implications of that. Just so we are not surprised.

Tammy Zonker (25:37)

Absolutely. And I think that that's often what's missing may be a symptom of the nonprofit sector. Right. We are so busy and there's a volume of work that's happening in a diminishing capacity. And so when do we make time to reflect, to really think things through, to be conscious about the choices that we're making, to have dialogue? Let's brainstorm. What's the best possible scenario? What's the best possible outcome from this? What outcomes would, like, unintended consequences might occur. And again, it's dialogue because different people will have different points of view and different perspectives on what those things might be. And so together we figure out, okay, what is the best choice for us? And then what can we anticipate from a benefit perspective? What can we anticipate from a shadow side perspective? How do we socialize that with executive leadership, with our board, so that we level set expectations? Like, don't act surprised.

Mallory Erickson (Interviewer) (26:46)

Yeah, totally.

Tammy Zonker (26:48)

Totally.

Mallory Erickson (Interviewer) (26:48)

Yes.

Tammy Zonker (26:49)

And we have a plan for navigating it. So give us the time and space to execute that plan and to do that navigation and then iterate.

Mallory Erickson (Interviewer) (26:56)

Yes.

Mallory Erickson (26:57)

Okay.

Mallory Erickson (Interviewer) (26:57)

I love all that. I could talk to you forever, but I know we're out of time and I'm probably making you wait for something. So tell everybody where they can go to get the book. Follow along all the things.

Tammy Zonker (27:09)

Thank you Mallory. So our website is callingallheroesbook.com so you can read about the book. You can read about some of the testimonials from advanced readers like Mallory and others, but the book is available for pre order right now on Amazon, on Barnes and Noble. On Books a Million, we list all of it and include links to all of the sites where it's available on the callingallheroesbook.com website. It will be shipping in November.

Mallory Erickson (Interviewer) (27:42)

Amazing. Thank you so much Tammy for joining me today and for everything that you do to support this sector. I'm so grateful and I'm grateful for.

Tammy Zonker (27:50)

All of your work, Mallory. Thank you and thanks for having me on today to talk about this conversation and human centered fundraising.

Mallory Erickson (Podcast Host - Closing) (28:02)

I hope today's episode inspired or challenged.

Mallory Erickson (Interviewer) (28:04)

You to think differently.

Mallory Erickson (Podcast Host - Closing) (28:06)

For additional takeaways, tips, show notes and more about our amazing guest and sponsors, head on over to Mallorykson.com podcast as and if you didn't know, hosting this podcast isn't the only thing I do every day. I coach, guide and help fundraisers and leaders just like you inside of my program, the Power Partners Formula Collective. Inside the program, I share my methods, tools and experiences that have helped me fundraise millions of dollars and feel good about myself in the process. To learn more about how I can help you, visit MalloryErickson.com PowerPartners partners last but not least, if you enjoyed this episode, I'd love to encourage you to share it with a friend you know would benefit or leave a review. I'm so grateful for all of you and the good hard work you're doing to make our world a better place. I can't wait to see you in the next episode.

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