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What the Fundraising
279 - The Human Side of Fundraising and Community Building with Dāna James
01:00:54
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- [00:04]
Mallory Erickson
Before we dive in, I want to give a huge shout out to donorperfect for supporting this podcast and the fundraisers who listen to it. They're not just a CRM. They're a partner in helping fundraisers feel more confident, aligned, and supported. Learn more@donorperfect.com Mallory.
- [00:26]
Donna James
From my perspective, we cannot discredit our ancestors and the work that they've done. We have incredible power right now. We also have incredible fear that we're holding, and both of those two things can be true. But I think to grow is to realize you're vulnerable and to think about what risk actually is, what you're willing to risk and what you're willing to sacrifice to make the world a better place and to be the version of you that you want to be.
- [00:54]
Mallory Erickson
Hey, my name is Mallory, and I'm obsessed with helping leaders in the nonprofit space raise money and run their organizations differently. What the fundraising is a space for real and raw conversations to both challenge and inspire you. Not too long ago, I was in your shoes. Uncomfortable with fundraising and unsure of my place in this sector. It wasn't until I started to listen to other experts outside of the fundraising space that I was able to shift my mindset and ultimately shift the way I show up as a leader. This podcast is my way of blending professional and personal development.
- [01:28]
Podcast Host
So.
- [01:28]
Mallory Erickson
So we, as a collective inside the nonprofit sector, can feel good about the work we are doing. Join me every week as I interview some of the brightest minds in the personal and professional development space to help you fundamentally change the way you lead and fundraise. I hope you enjoy this episode, so let's dive in.
- [01:48]
Podcast Host
Welcome, everyone. I am so excited to be here with Donna James. Donna, welcome to what the fundraising.
- [01:55]
Donna James
Thank you, Mallory. I'm so excited. Thanks for making time for me.
- [01:58]
Podcast Host
I cannot wait for this conversation. I was just sharing that our first conversation just, like, lit me up in so many ways. So why don't we start with you just telling everybody a little bit about you, who you are, what you do, what you care about, and then we'll dive in.
- [02:13]
Donna James
Yeah. My name is Donna James. I am an artist by birth and spirit. But in capitalism, I find myself being an engagement strategist. That's the language I use the most. I sort of didn't even see the through line until maybe even today. Seeing it even clearer today. But I've been working in, like, belonging and community building, and other folks will use the word organizer, but I've been in such traditional spaces my whole career. That language is never really used in the workspaces that I'm in. But it seems to be what I do. And I've just been so honored and grateful to find so many spaces, particularly in the last five years, that feel aligned to just sort of realizing that this is a team sport. Humanity is a group project. And if we can align ourselves a little bit more towards the collective, like, the song will sing and ring for all time. And I feel so. I don't know, just grateful for that because I do sit in the middle of a lot of workforce conversations. So being aware of how our workers are doing is very, like, present with me every day. So I'm so grateful for the spaces that I find myself in. And I do my best to help other folks build the spaces that they want and find the ones that they want as well.
- [03:25]
Podcast Host
There are so many areas of your work that we could focus on, but when we talked before, I want to give people a little bit of a framing to the work you do at Berkeley and the way that you do it, because I was so fascinated. I was asking so many questions about how you all do your engagement and community building work and really see, think about your alumni and philanthropy in this super interconnected way which relates to everything that you just said. And I was asking a lot of questions around, like, do you think that that's because it's an arts institution which just kind of has a completely different way of thinking about things and solving problems and creating things. And so I just want to like, bring everybody in kind of behind the scenes a little bit. Will you talk us through your work and how it sits differently than maybe a lot of engagement or advancement offices in higher ed?
- [04:21]
Donna James
Yeah, of course. It's funny because I still say this about Berkeley. It's like we're such a vast and diverse ecosystem. So, like, we speak multiple languages, and no matter what languages we're speaking, what kind of meetings we're in, what roles we're in, the thing that unites us is music. And so I think we have a unique ability to sort of see things and the golden thread that unites it, like, we can feel that attunement. And I just feel like that DNA runs through the place. So for myself, I never really, like, thought I would end up working in higher ed. There were some folks. I'm also an alum of Berkeley College of Music. There were some folks who sort of. I give them credit for manifesting this role for me, but I just didn't see it for myself. Again, I'm a Berkeley alum. I saw myself doing a lot of other things. It just felt like higher ed was like, I don't know, another world. Right. The kind of jobs my parents dreamed of. And like, maybe that is for me, but I don't really know what it is because they don't speak like me. Right. And when the opportunity came at Berkeley, I want to really give credit to, my former supervisor came in, especially with the interview, just really clear in his philosophy of honoring time, talent and treasure. And that language was completely new to me. But. But it's saying to me of what I know, which is our ideas of wealth and generosity must be decolonized. Right? We have to be able to recognize folks generosity when it doesn't show up in the ways that we have built a road for. Because there's so much giving and there's so much care going around the world that for me, my experience is that like, there must be something off in the workflows because the math is not mathing. The people are great. The magic is here we what is going on in the system. And I think that that has had always been a focus of mine. And through my work, I had started at a healthcare association prior to coming back to work for Berkeley, my alma mater. And I had this sort of real framing in how our infrastructure informs and supports our goals. And I had a wonderful supervisor at that organization, that nonprofit, who was really like, instrumental in that. So coming back to Berkeley with that sort of, oh, this is how it plugs into the real world. Expertise under my belt and the background that they had given me and the culture that they raised me in felt so much like coming home. And then that led to work with community centric fundraising and really understanding the deeper complexities of how our generosity ties into the infrastructure and the results that we're kind of seeing.
- [06:53]
Podcast Host
Okay, so talk to me a little bit about that nuance at that that you just said around. I feel like one of the things that so hard about fundraising is how human and vulnerable and personal it is in so many ways on the donor side, on the fundraiser side. Like, I always used to sort of roll my eyes when people would say, don't take it personally when somebody would get a no. And it's like, you asked me to take this personally when you asked me to take a pay cut. You asked me to take this personally when you asked me to work on Saturday. You asked me to take this personally to do everything. And now I bleed for this mission or this institution, and then it hurts when somebody says no. And so there's just so much about fundraising that just has so much human impact on us in all directions. And then we are trying to create systems and structure and operationalize it in a capitalist system. And I think it's just this constant, like, feeling I had of being torn in two. And I'm curious, like, how you hold both of those pieces of the puzzle and even maybe make them feel synergistic.
- [08:14]
Donna James
Yeah. I mean, I think in some strange, esoteric ways, I was born to. I was born for that. There's duality in my very existence. And I think, for me, it's funny that you bring up the word personal, because for me, I have three P words that I consider empty container words. And what I mean by that is we fill them and we give them meaning based on our cultural context, personal, professional, and political. And for me, those words never translated right. As a young child, like, picture baby Donna moving about the world, these words are coming up. We're trying to learn English because that's the language of my birth. I'm like, what does one of these words mean? Because they seem to mean something different in every room. And I've sort of. Because of a. My childhood background, my parentage, my lineage have always been on the cusp. And I heard a poem once that someone said, God, I wish I could, like, quote her in this moment, but I could find it. I definitely saved it. She said, being mixed is like living on a fault line. And I very much feel that, but not in the, like, oh, no, it's an earthquake kind of way. But that is just sort of my reality. And I've always been very interested in the dissonance. I don't fear the dissonance. And I think that that is a unique element of, like, artistry. I think most artists understand that dissonance is what makes the story, and we're here to make the story great. And I feel so, like, called to help people with that human vulnerability moments. I feel like if we could stop introducing these false binaries into our discomfort moments, we might get quite a bit farther, because, like you said, how is it not personal? My person is here. My personage, the person. I care for, the people. What do you mean? And I think that for a lot of us, that. That does make our brains feel like they're split in two. And I feel like the largest call I hear right now, particularly from folks who come into their, like, adulthood in this workforce in the last few decades, the call to just be allowed to make it all make sense and be a whole person. Feels like the call I hear the loudest right now. It certainly is what my spirit has been calling for, for my entire life.
- [10:30]
Podcast Host
I really appreciate everything that you just shared. And one of the things that like, as you were talking in my head, I was like wondering does that sort of artist and everything you shared about your own identity and, and experiences like that invitation into discomfort. Right. Is like. And maybe the. I don't know what the right word is here because I don't know if normalcy really isn't the word. But like acceptance.
- [11:06]
Donna James
Words fail. Yeah.
- [11:08]
Podcast Host
But like, like I feel like there's. I was just having a conversation with a bud of fundraisers yesterday in my group coaching program around how hard of a moment this is in, in fundraising. But their results are actually. They're all exceeding their goals, but they are so overwhelmed and so stressed because of the amount of change that they're navigating and uncertainty just in the climate that we're in. But part of what I really heard in it was this belief, this underlying belief that things should feel more stable and that discomfort in sort of not accepting that maybe actually this is always the uncertainty that's involved in human relationships. And we had sort of a false belief set to your point or a binary and constricted and over operationalized belief set previously. Maybe what's actually coming forward is like, is what is more typical if we allow it. And how do we accept and embrace that and maybe even look for that in a way that then allows us to feel more grounded and regulated, even in what might typically feel very uncomfortable for us?
- [12:28]
Donna James
Yeah, yeah.
- [12:30]
Podcast Host
Talk to me about what comes up.
- [12:31]
Donna James
For everything you're saying is why I sort of have had this shift in a recent year with my work of focusing on the individual versus the group or the framework or the organizational structure. Because for me in this moment, that exact introspection is where I feel like the most work is to be done. Because what I hear and what I see often is folks sort of wanting and having an instinct for what you said that, that stubborn hope, that belief, that tiny, tiny whisper in the back of our heads that I think we all hear that says, what if we are in fact already good enough? What if in fact we are not the problem? What if in fact we are smart enough and good enough and pretty enough and stylish enough and we have enough and we are enough and we do enough. What if that's there because we know we're giving, we know we're giving. And I feel like there is that instinct in our Bodies of like the math is not mathing, but I think the growth edge that we've been looking for is the game is not to out policy, out design, conflict and discomfort. What if the game is just knowing how to deal with it when it comes? What if trying to avoid change and hold things in place the exact same way is not the game? What if the game is embracing change and if you shift that. In my experience, I've had some revolutionary moments and they keep happening. I keep finding myself more human every day. Where you're like, oh, I'm safe, my needs are met. I feel very, very passionately that especially in the spaces that I occupy. I'm incredibly grateful to stand on the shoulders of so many people in every way, personal, professional, da da da da. But like we have so much power now, we are not allowed to feel it, but we have so much more. And I think my greatest gift has been helping remind folks of that in this time because it is really hard to see and our feelings are valid and we make sense, but even this is not the work context. But I'll share. My father is having a hard time in this moment. He's an older gentleman, of course. He's seen things that my eyes and your eyes could not contend with, can't imagine. He was raised in a different area in a different time period. He is a different being than I am. He's seen things that I can only imagine and I know he never wants me to see them. And in this moment, he's looking around kind of being like, well, maybe we failed. I really thought it would be better. I really thought it would be better by now or by the time I was this age or this or that. And he feels like we're set back and I hear that language a lot. And my poor dad, he has three daughters and we give that man no peace. And just really casually and frankly, my voice immediately just kind of said, I cannot agree with you. My grandmother couldn't have a bank account, I own a house. I have a beautiful job helping other people in contemporary music, nevermind music. And from my perspective, we cannot discredit our ancestors and the work that they've done. We have incredible power right now. We also have incredible fear that we're holding. And both of those two things can be true. But I think to grow is to realize you're vulnerable and to think about what risk actually is, what you're willing to risk and what you're willing to sacrifice to make the world a better place and to be the version of you that you want to be on whatever land you're on. And I feel like you're getting so much from me because my inner child is so happy because I'm like hours into a wicked hangover, obviously. And I'm just like, there are so much showing us who we are and there's so much for us to look at and think about how to show up if we're open and if we're listening. But listening is the hardest part. But that's why music is helpful.
- [16:39]
Podcast Host
Okay. Actually, there's something there that I want to double click on that piece around. I mean, when you're talking about listening, it sounds like you're talking about maybe both like listening to ourselves and listening to each other. And I was actually just talking to somebody earlier today who said to me, I think in the future you should ask this question on this type of call that we have. And she said, I know it's scary to do that because you don't know what the answer is going to be. And insight gathering inside practivated is something that we focus on a lot with fundraisers. How to help them improve their insight gathering skills and their question asking skills, feedback and. Yeah, and. But really they're like nervous system openness to maybe asking something where they don't know where it's gonna go. And like, what does it look like to give them both the skill skills around how to say things in a way that they feel more comfortable or maybe more grounded in saying, like finding their voice in asking that question. Because I think some of it can be the discomfort in I don't know how to say that. Or would it offend them or just some of those like, fear narratives that hold us back. But some of it is like, I have to be genuinely curious in what the person is going to say and if I'm scared of what they're going to say, it's really hard to be curious.
- [18:05]
Donna James
Yeah.
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Podcast Host
So when you think about like listening and question asking, sort of as it relates to everything we're talking about, what are some of the things that you've seen in your engagement work? Like, tell me a story about how that has, like, opened up a pathway that gives people some kind of like hope and inspiration around what might be possible if they venture outside of that. How did you first get involved in our organization question?
- [18:34]
Donna James
Yeah, yeah. It's a big one. Right. It's also an optional adventure and I think that that makes it what's difficult because we're having conversations about we should do all the time without really acknowledging how much, again, power, agency, and choice we have in that. And I feel like I refer to that, like, what you're saying, that resistance as the work of keeping your receiver on. I talk the way that I feel, folks, when we're doing especially like, like underlying conflict work or like resistance driven work. That curiosity for me is around like, what's sticking? You know what's sticking. But what it looks like in the person is like, the receiver is off. Like, we've all been in that conversation where you're like, I don't feel like you're really hearing me. So we know what it feels like to be on the other end of it, but what it feels like to be inside of your body in that moment is just vulnerable and freaked. And I think in so many ways we don't allow ourselves to just be human. Humans are going to have feelings sometimes. They're going to be fearful. And there is a ton of power dynamic and like, baggage that we're all bringing with each other into every room we're in. It doesn't matter which P word we're in. And that is challenging. Right? We're like, we're almost not acknowledging half of the labor that we're doing all of the time. The people labor. And the labor of being a human being and trying not to cause harm is labor. No one's paying us for it, but we can dream. But, like, that is a key element of being able to be in community with folks. And to your point, I think the things that I have seen that move folks from that fight, flight, freeze, fawn moment to like, I can see the sun, I can see the light. Oh, is that hope? Is that. Is she back? Right? Most of the time it's exactly what you said. The words get in the way. Right? Like, most folks are tripping over the words. And that is why I have always, I think no matter what, tempted me into different industry sectors or whatever, the art is the base. The art will always be the baseline. Because when we cannot reach each other, we can use different communication. And often we don't even need to say the exact word or agree on what the word is to agree on what we're talking about and the feeling that we want to have. And I feel like music and poetry and art gives us a way to communicate the like, concepts to each other without tripping over the syntax. And I feel like most of the time we're tripping over syntax and again, we're not really acknowledging that, like, we're a diverse workforce, we Are all doing language translation all the time. It doesn't even matter if you were born in the same state, speak the same language, and are from the same lineage as people. You bring different culture to your words, and that means we're speaking different languages. And I think if we could, like, adapt to that, I think that that would be kind of helpful. I think creative folks, like the ones that I work with come to it a little bit easier because we are used to finding different ways to resonate with each other. Right. When you're working on TV and film. Right. The composers that I work with, when they're working with filmmakers. Filmmakers are not musicians. So when they're getting feedback, that's like, this is the haunting example. But, hey, can you make this more orange? Someone's trying to communicate something like that. Is that helpful? No. Do they love that? No, no, no, no, no, no. But they are also very adept at being like, okay, you said orange. What about this? Is this orange to you? What does orange mean to you? How can I get. Is this to your orange? Right. That practice, that feedback back and forth is innate. To be an artist is to accept that your receiver is on, because that's what started the chain in the first place. We don't create from nothing. Something comes in, and we turn it into something. And if you accept that process as part of everything. But I think accept is the operative word, right. I was raised a Buddhist, and, like, acceptance is a challenging level of enlightenment. Like, there, that's. That's on the journey there. That's high. But because you have to accept that everything everywhere, all at once, and none of us want to really embrace our shadow all of the time, it's really tough. It's also human, so it's so interesting.
- [23:04]
Podcast Host
And my first year of college, I took Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Christianity, Islam, and Judaism.
- [23:16]
Donna James
It's such a similar situation, really. Yes. I went to a. An elementary school called the Hebrew Academy.
- [23:23]
Podcast Host
Oh, my gosh.
- [23:24]
Donna James
So I was studying, like, Hebrew and Judaism in, like, the fourth grade. My mom is Buddhist, but again, my family is Italian Catholic, so she's sort of like the black sheep. And I'm a black woman. I guess it just. I was so fascinated by these lines that we drew. And I think, in particular, having this sort of, like, to be very clear, I did not really understand my blackness until I was older, but I was in this, like, Jewish context for most of my, like, formulaic childhood years. And I do think that culture of curiosity feels like home. That is a shared cultural context and a shared Cultural practice. And I similarly took, like, human rights courses, history of human religion. So fascinated by faith, so fascinated by these things that feel like expressions of us and feel like such uniting things. But then you pull back, and the older you get and the more you listen, it's so divisive. And you're like, well, what? How could something that starts with such good intention be so complex? And that I just think is. That's the question of Earth. How could something with such good intention. Right? We always have good intentions. Well, most of the time we're humans, but you know what I mean? It's. Intention does not equal impact. And that's in therein lies the. The labor, the practice, the work. And I feel like I got that from Judaism. I got that from knowing that, like, I could be meditating in San Jose at a retreat center, or at the time it was called Burma in a Forest, which is. These are true stories. Or taking Spanish at my Hebrew school. Like, and it was like, we're all sort of saying the same things. But so much of my life, I have seen people not see that we're saying the same things, but I almost, because of where I sit, can see what's keeping us apart. So I've always, I think, felt drawn to sort of like, pull away the veil.
- [25:22]
Podcast Host
It's so interesting because I also like what I really like, fell in love with Buddhism when I was going through all of that learning and because I think, yes, Judaism, that culture of curiosity and sort of the relentless pursuit of, you know, not even answers, learning and challenging ways of thinking. But we are not a culture of a lot of acceptance, like, peace and acceptance around things. And who is.
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Donna James
I was always.
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Podcast Host
That was like, this piece that I, for me, all of the looks at religion were like, all these different ways of seeing the world and thinking about the world and grappling with humanity and figuring out how to live in meaningful ways and connected ways and what could you learn from each of them that somehow algamated into, like, a way that would feel good to me. And the acceptance piece around and Buddhism sent me on my own journey that materialized in a number of different ways. But I think one of the things that I have found myself talking a lot about on in fundraising calls recently is what I learned from my yoga practice around acceptance, which was the way that you breathe into a painful position and the pain disappears. And some of my, like, Buddhism reading at the time when I was going through yoga teacher certification, and I remember at the time I was dating a guy who wrote a Harley And I'm really revealing a lot about myself at the moment. But I would spend hours on the back of this Harley in the Northeast. And if you've ever ridden a motorcycle for a very long time. And I hope my daughter never listens to this episode when I have, like, a no motorcycle rule in my house. But if you have ever ridden on a motorcycle for a very long time, it's very painful. Like, when you first start to do it, like, your body is not used to it. You get really sore. You know, you're.
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Donna James
And, like, horseback riding, right? Like, that's.
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Podcast Host
Yes.
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Donna James
This is not how we move.
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Podcast Host
Yeah. Yes. And so, like, you can get. And I just remember, like, sometimes hour four, hour five, I would, like, bring in that. Like, how do I breathe into this? Like, because I'm feeling myself resisting. I'm feeling the pain. Everything in my body is like, get me off of here. Get me out of this. I don't want to do this anymore. All the narratives. Why aren't we just in a car? How did I agree to this again? Don't. I know I can't be on the back of here for this long. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I finally, like, had this moment once where I was like, wait, breathe into it. Like, take that yoga teaching. Take those Buddhism teachings. And, like, how can you accept that? Like, this is where you are. And breathe into it. And what's the impact that that has on the pain? And I remember the first time I did this and, like, sinking and being like, oh, it's. I'm here. Like, I'm here. And it's actually not so bad. Like, what was bad was that fight I was having with myself about how I shouldn't be here. And I have that same grappling when I'm in a yoga pose that I've never been in before, when I'm like, oh, why am I doing this to my legs again? You know? Like, whoever thought this was a good idea?
- [28:35]
Donna James
And then I'll like, this must be wrong.
- [28:37]
Podcast Host
Yeah. There's no way that I'm supposed to.
- [28:39]
Donna James
Be doing this is right.
- [28:41]
Podcast Host
But then I'll catch myself and. Okay, breathe into it. What does it mean to breathe into it? And on this group coaching call the other day, I was talking about this, like, where can we breathe in? Like, where can we breathe in? In a way, in our fundraising that helps us realize that the pain of that. The discomfort of that is actually not in the act itself. It's in our resistance to the act. And, like, how can acceptance play a role in deepening connection, deepening human engagement. So I want to know, like, how you think about that in your work.
- [29:13]
Donna James
I mean, I think the way I really, in this moment especially, am careful about not shooting on people, because I do think it is about the learning to sit with it. But you're at where you're at in that journey, right? That's your sort of final project of human actualization. So, like, no judgment. And also, I do feel like we ask too much of people when they're in that moment. I think for some reason, we continue to talk about what we should do, but we don't talk about what we should do for people when they are in that moment. In the way that I address feedback and our relationship with feedback, most of the time it's about power dynamics. And I think power dynamics are where I always will start, especially when we're talking about the professional spaces. And if you're in the position of power, it is your job to manage and sit with your discomfort in that context. That is your job. And I think in every situation, sort of assessing the space in the room and what's happening, and then positioning yourself, assessing where you're positioned in it, is important. And I don't think we do that very much. There's, unfortunately, our mainstream culture wants us to sort of not have to think about that. To me, that feels super unnatural. But again, we've talked about. I'm always on the fault line. So every room I'm in, I'm like, what language, what culture? Should I take my shoes off? Should I not? Like, most folks do not have that math running through their heads all of the time. Which, sure, it sounds liberating. And also, I wouldn't change it. I wouldn't change it. I feel like I'm able to see and take in people in such a pure and magical way. And if we are in that moment, I hope that one day we will get to the place of understanding that we shouldn't expect anything more of people in that moment than dealing with that moment. That people should not be alone in their pain. We often have conflict in workspaces. And one of the things that I'm super passionate about when I do have leaders around who are open enough to choose what feels radical is, what if we do this conversation together, we go straight to, let's do this alone. Let's have this offline. I'm not saying have big conflict conversations in the whole team, but I'm saying, like, is there someone that that person would feel comfortable with as an advocate Is there someone who could speak with them, for them, in as a team? Because in that moment when it's me, I am not all of myself. I don't have it for you. I'm not the belonging expert, the feedback expert. I'm here, I'll center you. I mean, for better or worse, I'm very good at that. It's a gift of mine, somewhat to my detriment, but, like, that's not what we should expect of people. I'm, in fact, trying to stop doing it because it's not good for my body and it's not good for my spirit. It's not good for the spaces that I'm in, ultimately. So if we can allow folks to have that beautiful benefit of the doubt that we all should have access to, especially in spaces like when we said, if you sit with it, are you safe? Or is there a lion in the bush? Is there a lion in the bush? Okay. Whether or not you feel like there's a lion in the bush, there might be something in the bush, there might not be a bush.
- [32:33]
Podcast Host
Right.
- [32:34]
Donna James
I think getting really real with yourself about what you fear and why is important. And I think allowing people around you to have that human moment and to fail and to make mistakes and know that, like, there is no binary villain and hero narrative that we're all playing into. That's just how we make art. That's just how we write. And his story is not necessarily the truth. So I think it's so important to kind of look for those different framings, different perspectives. When your curiosity lights up, like, lean into it, smile into it, find someone who's also curious about it. I feel like so much our togetherness is not utilized, and, like, there's so much wealth of joy and care and comfort and being witnessed, even when we're uncomfortable can do so much for us. And so I always kind of say it's like harmony, right? If the chord is too dissonant, you often don't have to take something away. You can add something, and it makes it a little bit more harmonious, juicy, warm. It's not always about taking something away, and often we go to taking away. What if we add something to it? Could it ring more true? And often it's just another person, another voice.
- [33:56]
Mallory Erickson
There are so many lessons in this episode that are so critical to supporting your fundraising, but I know we can't capture all of the tips and tricks here, which is why I'm so grateful for our friends and sponsors over at Donor Perfect who've created a Number of wonderful resources for non profits and fundraisers to help you improve your fundraising practices. Head on over to donorperfect.com Mallory to learn more about their CRM and click on the resources section to grab all of their helpful information today.
- [34:31]
Podcast Host
So much of what you're talking about right now is making me curious about how this type of culture on a fundraising team translates into. Into the culture that's created with donors. Like, everything that you just said around, everything from power dynamics, but everything from power dynamics to being additive to spaces, to the, like, collective ownership of fear and discomfort. There's so many layers to what you said that I have questions about. But from your, like, vantage point, what does that look like then in a donor community? If this is what the fundraising community looks like?
- [35:20]
Donna James
I think from my experience, what I think is so funny is often our. The space that we can't see in our own power and ability to, like, change and just, like, do something a little different. We don't see the room we have to experiment is often around, like, not allowing that curiosity. Right. Like, I have been in so many spaces where folks that we might call donors would come to us and say that they wanted to feel like more a part of the community, that being engaged as a donor in the way that we do it, in fact makes them feel othered. Right. I think so often we are talking about the donor community and I understand why we are, but I think especially nowadays, we know that when we are talking about donors, we're certainly talking about folks with larger capacity. Fewer folks have larger capacity than not. So maybe we don't generalize an entire population. Right. And maybe we expand our imaginations to what a donor could be. And that's where I think the work I'm excited for, what we're working on with at Berkeley. There's an alum who is the CEO of Granted, who was a great partner for community centric fundraising, Seattle Adventures. And I didn't even know she was an alum until like a month ago. I was like, oh, my God, how do we not meet there? What? I'm very excited. She and I are going to have a really good chat because we both got really lit up around the idea of, like, operationalizing this decolonized view of wealth and generosity. We often will classify our donors in different, like, categories. But are we tracking the folks who will give their time? Yes, we name our volunteers. And sometimes if you're lucky enough to have an infrastructure that is this well designed, you're tracking volunteer hours and you're including that in your narratives and this and that. But often we're not even doing that. So what would it mean if we actualized and told the story of the generosity of time, talent, and treasure and equitized our view of it? Right. The alum that I have who talks to me every three months lets me know every time there's a shift coming in the industry, lets me know every time they hear of an open job, lets me know the things that they're running up against in their career journey so that I can pass on some advice to those who come after them. Is their giving any less valuable than the donor who gives $1,000 a year? Should they be in the same bucket? That's going to be hard work. Right? I think every org evaluating how we value what's contributed, that's always been the game. This land has never figured out how to honor labor. We are still stuck on the same final question of our proficiency examination. And it is not looking good, Mallory. It is not looking good. But I think this is the actual equation that we're dealing with. Luckily, we do have a ton of tools, right? Like, tech is not doing great right now. PR wise and human creativity goes both ways always. We can turn a tool into a weapon in a heartbeat. And we have all these tools and creativity. Surely we can operationalize and valuate our intangible generosity. Surely we can begin to see that exchange and reciprocity is sustainable, whereas scaling always isn't. Right. I think so much of what we've been sort of circling around does come down to this idea of, like, we stop at the binary over and over and over, but if we let the fact that there are still two thoughts in the room that are in conflict matter and go, huh?
- [39:15]
Podcast Host
Right?
- [39:15]
Donna James
Like, how many rooms have you been in where somebody has raised the idea that, like, donors don't like being treated like donors? I know so many people were having these conversations in hallways, by the water cooler, in zoom rooms, but that's not on the team meeting agenda. Most of the time, we're not working towards that. We're sort of lamenting what needs to change instead of giving ourselves the permission to be creative from the ground up and in a really magical way. And also, it makes certain things harder. Berkeley does that all the time. Listen, we are what we are. We're different. Right? And I don't know who first decided that different was wrong, but, like, that's not my ministry. That's not my people. No, no, no. Different is cool. What works for y'. All. And I think that's what's so frustrating. If we take it to the larger conversation about, like, you know, some folks call these frameworks community centric fundraising. Some folks call them, like, equitable fundraising, like, whatever language you want to use. I think that's why it transitions so well into those conversations. Because in those conversations and in those rooms, like, we can tangibly feel often what we're holding back. But I wonder if we can feel like what's on the other side of it. Can you feel the potential of it? Because I don't see any villains among us. There are some people I have feelings about or feedback for.
- [40:38]
Podcast Host
Or questions.
- [40:39]
Donna James
I'm very curious now. I'm very curious about some things, but, like, I can get through any conversation with anyone. And, like, in this economy, I feel super wealthy because of that. What could that be? Like, what if all of our workspaces were like that? What would it be like if we felt like that in every room? And I feel like that's been my lesson of the workforce and of, like, adulthood. And I'm sure I'll be on this journey for the rest of my life, but I don't know. Lights me up. Wired weird.
- [41:12]
Podcast Host
Not to me. I feel like we're wired very similarly in a lot of, like, how do.
- [41:16]
Donna James
You do this all day? Like, how do you sit with. Especially, can you imagine being a new grad right now, like, going through high school and Covid. Now you enter the workforce right now the algorithm is telling us seven different truths, Right? Like, they know so much. Because to our generation's credit, we have shared a lot. We're big sharers, but they know so much. The thinking is the thing. And like you said, like, feeling into what you're feeling because it's the embodiment of all of that that you are contending with, that is actually the challenge. And I think that's the hardest lesson that we learn. I think we try to get smart enough to outthink our humanity. But, like, you're never gonna out think your body.
- [42:03]
Podcast Host
I am honestly, like, deeply processing some of the things that you just said. And something I've always loved about this podcast is, like, for me, I just get to, like, learn in public, which maybe for some people would feel, like, embarrassing or whatever, but I really like it. And lights you up. Yeah, But I think there's some things that you said there that, like, are going to take a little while for me to, like, wrestle with. And some of what I love about what you're talking about that I think is so important. For our sector to hear is we have been caught. And I understand this actually related to everything that you said before around power and the over individualization of problems and solutions and that I think that is part of the reason we get trapped in the what isn't working conversation instead of the like believing we can dream or say that thing out loud or get curious. Because like for a lot of people they haven't been safe to do that. They haven't been allowed to do that. They haven't. And so I just like I really, I feel that tension and always as a coach, like somebody who isn't trained in systems level solutions, like I'm trained in individual solutions as a certified coach trained in habit behavior design. It is my background. So I always over index there without talking about the system stuff and pointing to those experts, but not pretending to be an expert there. And it's why I've been so grateful for and like all the work that community centric fundraising has put out and all of the different sort of thought leaders and folks who contribute to that. I think like obviously we have to hold both of those things. Like one is all of the system level like accountability and solutioning and problem solving and ownership that is so necessary and accepting and allowing people to be where they're at and not expecting the individual solutions to hit the same for everybody.
- [44:09]
Donna James
Right.
- [44:09]
Podcast Host
Because people's access to those and ability to implement them is not the same.
- [44:14]
Donna James
Yeah.
- [44:15]
Podcast Host
And while also helping people feel a sense of agency that they want or the choice to accept agency. Right. Like for me that's always what it's about is like I want you to know agency is there for you if you want it in these ways. It doesn't mean these other things are not true.
- [44:34]
Donna James
Right.
- [44:34]
Podcast Host
It doesn't mean that this is your fault. It doesn't mean that there shouldn't be system level accountability for X, Y and Z. It doesn't mean that this should actually be your problem to solve. Like I write about this a lot in what the fundraising where I'm like, I am so frustrated that I have to be giving a individual solution here. Like this should not be on the fundraiser and yet I want to give fundraisers on an individual level some sense of agency around their daily felt experience and that for is like there for their choosing. So I just so appreciate like all of the different things that you just said. And so I just wanted to like double click on all of that. And also there's something coming up for me which is going to feel like a deep detour from what I just said.
- [45:19]
Donna James
I love it. Let's go.
- [45:21]
Podcast Host
That piece you said about the way we Other donors.
- [45:25]
Donna James
Yeah.
- [45:26]
Podcast Host
I do not hear enough conversations around that. And we say that we are trying to create community and belonging, but in these hierarchical ways that we think or the ways we overvalue money and we have actually broken the fabric of the thing we say we have intention to build.
- [45:51]
Donna James
Yeah.
- [45:52]
Podcast Host
Why can't we get out of that trap? Is that just capitalism? Like.
- [45:59]
Donna James
Okay, Mallory, okay.
- [46:02]
Podcast Host
To me, I'm like, that's so. Because this is, like, a very personal thing to share, and I don't have a lot of, like, experiences as a donor or with wealth, but definitely, like, as the podcast following has grown and my speaking has grown, I have been experiencing this really, really deep sense of feeling more disconnected from my community when I go to a conference and. And it feels awful. I don't want to cry on the podcast because we only have six minutes left, but I have been trying to figure out, like, what has been happening. I'm like, everybody is like, oh, all these things are so good. But, like, I don't feel as good. I feel like I walk into a conference and I don't belong.
- [46:44]
Donna James
Yes.
- [46:45]
Podcast Host
In the way I want to belong. And so when you said that, I was like, oof.
- [46:50]
Donna James
Yeah.
- [46:52]
Podcast Host
I've never thought about that on the donor level in that way.
- [46:55]
Donna James
Everything everywhere, all at once. Like, I'm going to come at that. I'm going to sing in a different key. We, I think, generally probably agree that patriarchy is not helpful for women. Are men happy? Is homophobia good for anyone? Transphobia? Anything?
- [47:13]
Podcast Host
We're shaking our head no.
- [47:15]
Donna James
For those of you listening, like, it's just not. We have a lot of effort put into certain things that I believe rip up our social fabric. Our energy of connection, our oneness, our wholeness as a species, as a planet, as a community, as a society, whatever, as a family, whatever it is, that connective energy between us gets torn apart by these words and constructs that are not real, that were introduced a long time ago and that had really real implications. And I do not know what the answer is for everyone. Right. I can't tell you what to make for dinner. I don't know what your family's allergic to. I don't know what's in your kitchen, all of that. And for me, the answer has been name the thing. The language that I feel comfortable using is whiteness. Knowing that I come from a lineage of people who fall into that bucket. They might be spicy white or whatever we want to call it. Right. Having the courage to look at the whole and see where you are positioned within it carries incredible weight and responsibility. Right. I think we have been shouting this at each other in so many different ways through most art forever. Right. We've sat how many Spider man movies have there been? If I hear with great power comes great responsibility one more time. Of course, every magic story or myth or thing, we always talk about how it's important to learn how to control your powers or else you could inadvertently hurt others or yourself. Right. I think that for better or for worse, because we have forgotten or forcibly not been allowed to focus on the pain of folks who are in the less powerful positioning holistically, it means that we as a collective don't really want to focus on the pain of the people who have more. Right. If you have more power, centering your pain and feelings when I have pain and feelings too is again, too much to ask. That said, there are spaces where you can focus on your own vulnerability, but we cannot demand that our discomfort and our vulnerability is the only vulnerability that matters in any moment. That's what the community and the council and the care is for in your circle. Right. And I think again, our entrance into labor on this land was not equitable in any way. And I do believe that. That the traces of that are visible to this day. I think that for a great many people, our shared spaces are where they feel social connection. But social connection has to be authentic, to feel good to both people. And we have an imbalance of that that has been going on for generations. And it will take so much time and so much energy to unpack all of that. And it's a group project. All you have to do is keep your eyes on your own paper. I feel deeply that again, the tools are good and bad. Though social media came and gave my people life, we're so happy we can find each other. Oh, my God, we're so close. I know everybody's traumas and we are better for it. We also kind of are farther apart. And so we focus on the group project because we feel helpless in our own situation a lot of the time. But if you just keep your eyes on your own paper, you're going to graduate. You're going to graduate, and then maybe you'll teach or maybe you'll go on to grad school, or maybe you're done with school and you become a clown. I don't care. But you will have gotten to that place and you won't have the same Questions, and then you can help someone else when they have those questions. And I think that that is the boiled down, this is actually the assignment of humanity that we have been so put in a blender to not see. It's really like, I have a lantern. When yours is out, I'll light yours. And when mine is out, I hope you'll do the same. And, like, there's a lot working against us and we are still here. And for better or worse, every time I fall apart, I go. And someone is like. And then I wake up the next morning or I go into the next meeting, and I'm like, hi. That's all we have to do. We do not all have to have our lights on at the same time. The sun does not shine 24 hours a day. Right? Like, it's okay to just move through your journey and your experience, but I don't think we give people permission for that. We're asking some folks to be heroes, martyrs, saviors, all of this. When in fact, just being like a really good human and being a really good friend and a really good neighbor and a really good partner, if you master those things, if you're making that your practice, all those other relationships are easier. They're all easier if you're dealing with the relationship with yourself and your fear. And what makes you show up in the parts of you were like, oh, that's not a good shade for me. We all know we've all seen a color on us and we're like, oh, I don't like that. Right. And if you let that be like, oh, yeah, I am limited. I'm wicketing again. There is a scene, it's in the trailer, okay, where Cynthia Rivo says, I'm limited. I'm limited. And Ariana is just looking at her and she says, look at me with their eyes, not yours, theirs. I'm limited. And she is right. We are all limited in certain ways because everybody's got a different receiver pattern. So we need all of us. And accepting those limitations and letting that be enough, I actually think is the hack. What if we were good enough all along? What if we're good enough now? What if we're just not allowed to see it or feel it? And, like, I don't actually think there's some revolutionary framework or anything that we're going to discover. I actually think it's just. Is there someone in every room who can hold space for all of this? Just one. Just one person in every room who's like, I eat conflict for breakfast. One person who's like, ooh, dissonance. Hi, friend. I have never been more interested in anything in my life because that's how I feel, right? Like, when that happens for me, I'm so grateful for the friends that I have, and I've had them for so long that I can be like, hey, this shade came up in me. Can we talk about it for, like, three hours? Great, great. Ping off of me. Hold you just ping. So I can learn more about myself. Like a bat in echolocation. Right? And what a wonderful homework assignment. What a joy to do your homework with your friends and, like, if you're lucky, with your family. My parents are not perfect, but I will find a way to honor them in a way that truly honors what this means. But they will give me their stories. They will give me their stories. They will, to the best of their abilities. They will answer my questions. My curiosity does not scare them. And I just think what a gift that is. You have people around you who are comfortable enough to let you see them so that you can see yourself. And if we could do our work like that together, by God, we may not burn out. That's my dream.
- [55:00]
Podcast Host
Well, now I am crying in the best way.
- [55:05]
Donna James
I want to tell you it's not me, but it is. It happens. I apologize. I don't know.
- [55:12]
Podcast Host
Are you kidding? I don't know. I love how I can access my emotions.
- [55:16]
Donna James
Yeah. I read something yesterday that said people who cry quickly and in real time, it's actually your brain is processing faster. The tears are a lubrication of the process, and that's how you see it externally. And I love science. I love that we can actually test and define these things now. But, like, yeah, yeah, me and my bestie cry all the time. And we are. If I'm Glinda, she's Elphaba. Like, we're whatever side. We're not the same. We are not the same she and I at all. A lot of ways. And cry immediately the tears. And, like, I have never not wanted to do that. But also, I was raised on the.
- [55:59]
Podcast Host
Stage.
- [56:01]
Donna James
So I'm aware that I have different things going on. But that's why I think that music and art and being a part of and tapping into your artistry in any kind of way is the most healing.
- [56:12]
Podcast Host
Thing you can do.
- [56:12]
Donna James
It gives you permission.
- [56:14]
Podcast Host
So I really appreciate everything that you said, and I just hope that fundraisers who are listening to this, like, rewind and listen to that a few times, honestly, because I think one of the things that I've felt so much for fundraisers is that. And that I've really focused on in my work is actually just removing all the stories and the crap that has made them forget that they know. Like, I spend more time being like, you have it, you know, you're there, you've got this. And it's all this other stuff that is creating this confusion or distraction. But you and, and, and I also just really love. The last thing I'll say is like, I think that piece around starting with a relationship with yourself, that's the thread between the system and the individual. Right? Like, I've been grappling with that for so long.
- [57:14]
Donna James
That's the math.
- [57:17]
Podcast Host
It's about the relationship with yourself being at the core, because that's the piece that is yours for you. And yes, it has impact on all these other things, but it's not the shoulding, it's not the self work for performance. It's for you. And that when it can really, when you can start with that relationship with self, yes, it will impact all these other things and we could make the business cases for those. But, like, you deserve to have a healthy and good relationship with yourself and you have the capacity to start to open up that relationship and get curious about it, even if that's just the first step to start to wonder. So thank you. I know we're over. I'm so grateful for this conversation, for all of your, like, wisdom and just how you show up and grapple with these questions publicly, too.
- [58:14]
Donna James
Thank you. And thank you for. I don't know, the timing of this is just so magical and amazing for me too, because I'm sure, as you can understand, there's a lot coming at me right now of like, we're over this.
- [58:28]
Podcast Host
Yeah.
- [58:29]
Donna James
Not now. Right. It's not my season. It's not our season. But it will be again. Yeah, it will be again. And even when we're not trending. Yeah, we're all here. We're all here. And I just hope we can start to use the algorithm to find our reflection versus continue to invest in whatever this game is, because I don't want to play anymore. But I think as long as there are folks like you and me and the folks who brought us together and the spaces that we're working with, folks who are willing to ask and be curious, like, we're gonna get there before it's done.
- [59:08]
Podcast Host
Yeah. Thank you.
- [59:16]
Mallory Erickson
I hope today's episode inspired or challenged you to think differently. For additional takeaways, tips, show notes, and more about our amazing guest and sponsors, head on over to Malloryerickson.com podcast and if you didn't know, hosting this podcast is isn't the only thing I do every day. I coach, guide and help fundraisers and leaders just like you inside of my program, the Power Partners Formula Collective. Inside the program, I share my methods, tools and experiences that have helped me fundraise millions of dollars and feel good about myself in the process. To learn more about how I can help you, visit Mallorykson.com PowerPartners last but not least, if you enjoy enjoyed this episode, I'd love to encourage you to share it with a friend you know would benefit or leave a review. I'm so grateful for all of you and the good hard work you're doing to make our world a better place. I can't wait to see you in the next episode.
- [60:16]
Donna James
Fundraising is hard. Every donor conversation carries pressure and most fundraisers are expected to just figure it out through trial and error. That's why we built Practivated, the first ever AI powered donor conversation simulator made just for fundraisers. It's a safe, judgment free space to practice your pitch, refine your storytelling, and build the confidence that drives real results for your mission. Because conversations move missions forward, with Practivated, you and your team can practice anytime, get real feedback instantly and walk into donor meetings ready, not rehearsed, but prepared. See how practice changes everything? Try practivated today at www.practivated.com and start building confidence. One conversation at a.