← What the Fundraising
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- [00:00]
A
I believe that life is disparate by design. 100% disparate by design.
- [00:08]
B
Yeah.
- [00:08]
A
So I always say you have to create boundaries with yourself, for yourself. If you don't say, I'm gonna put a limit on my media, on my screen time, I'm gonna put a limit on how much I allow myself to ruminate. I'm gonna put a limit on whose voices and who has access to me. I'm gonna put a limit on who gets access to my energy. I'm gonna put a limit on how much I overextend myself. Right. I would put a limit with myself for myself. Right. Because right now, our communities are relying on us more than ever.
- [00:43]
B
Welcome to the first in person episode of what? The Fundraising. Floyd Jones. There's nobody else who should be here for this first episode. Thank you for joining me today.
- [00:55]
A
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
- [00:59]
B
Everyone who's listening to this, we just spent the last hour taping, packing envelopes to the window to adjust for the light.
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A
And we need diy.
- [01:12]
B
It is a full DIY operation over here. I want it to be those, like, super chill people who can, like, sit on a couch with, like, a mic in their hands. But I'm not that casual.
- [01:24]
A
We're working our way up to it. People don't know that it takes a lot of work to look unput together.
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B
Yes. Like, how did they do that? When I tried to do the research on what it would take to do that, it was so complicated.
- [01:37]
A
That's correct. I mean, even putting this stuff together today, how many times. I was like, I would have quit 85 times. You gotta know your zone. You gotta know your 20, 26. Know your zone of genius. This. Setting this up.
- [01:51]
B
Chad, my little ADHD brain, though, it's like, I must finish it.
- [01:55]
A
No, it was fun watching you. You were very excited. You were like, oh, I gotta. We're gonna do this. We're gonna. This is why we got activated. This is why we got all these things.
- [02:04]
B
Like, five things fell on my head during the process of setting this up. And we just keep on going.
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A
Me, I'm like, just hit play. Just hit play. Tell me where to go. And I'm fine.
- [02:14]
B
But we did it. We're recording. It's a 50, 50 chance you're gonna get this recording. People listening. But. But no, I'm so excited. And we've gotten to spend the day together, and it's the beginning of the year and we've gotten to, like, reflect on our last year. And think about this year. And I feel like there's so much of what we talked about that would be valuable for people to hear. Kind of like how we're thinking, grappling with things. Because I feel like, as a nonprofit leader, January is so hard. Like, you just got through, barely scraped.
- [02:52]
A
Isn't that crazy? I used to always be stressed out being like, one year finished, okay, take your little two days off and then come back, and then you gotta get on the hamster wheel again. I was like, this is not. This don't seem right.
- [03:06]
B
Right. And you should be refreshed and excited and energized. New year, new you. And you're like, whoa.
- [03:14]
A
And I saw something. And I think this is more and more so true. I can't believe I'm forgetting his name. But he is the director of a tour and a book and a series called We Go on and it's so amazing. And he. I subscribed to his substack. And he always said something in January, that January is about reflecting, not resolving. Like, it's not about resolutions. We're in the middle of winter. Like, when you think about the seasons, we are in the middle of winter. Like, the new year starts with spring, right? But we are so constricted with these man made concepts of time and these western philosophies around time. And then we put our budgets around this concept of time. We set our work schedules around this concept of time. We set our missions around these concepts of time. And we wonder why we're always stressed out. Because we're operating in systems that weren't designed to support us. So you have to understand what is my own pace. And I always say that there is a grace for your pace. And I always say that you need to operate in time and on time. Even if you put your hand on your heart, there's a rhythm. It's your rhythm. The world is not saying you need to articulate to this, but so many times we miss this. We lose out on this heartbeat.
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B
Mm.
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A
And we're trying to tune up to the frequencies that are all around us. And we're wondering when we're stressed out. When you think about a radio, what do you think about a radio? And you're dialing the radio. And I know some of y' all listen to this, talking about, what's the radio, child? I go to my Spotify. No, go back to your car before the electric cars. Okay? And when you tune that radio, you in between stations, and when you're in between stations, what happens? It's fuzzy. Yeah, it's fuzzy. And you only got that clear signal when you are on the channel you were supposed to be on. Right now, we're in between switching channels. Allow yourself to get to the right channel so you can hear the right frequency and you can operate in your proper pace.
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B
Okay, but what do you do if, like, you don't know what channel you're supposed to be?
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A
That's why it comes back to listening. That's what it comes back to, because we're not listening. We're trying to level up. We're trying to compare. We're trying to meet on the same level as everybody. We're trying to operate in this system that wasn't designed for us, remember? So that's why you don't know. But we always know. We always know inside, you know? You know what I'm saying? And so many people, so many organizations, because we're gonna bring it back. So many organizations, in my opinion, are falling short and failing and failing off because we're trying to say, okay, hey, New Year, we need more money. We need to get a new budget. We need to do a new thing. I'm like, more is not a goal. More is an outcome. Growth is supposed to be a natural outcome, or it's an outcome, one outcome of all the other different inputs that you're doing. But what if this year isn't supposed to be about growth? What if this year is about abiding? What if this year is about maintaining, integrating. Integrating, sustaining. Yeah, we think that if we're not breaking records every single year, we're not doing something. But what if the season isn't calling for that?
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B
And we assign so much virtue to things without thinking through, are they virtuous?
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A
Not sponsored yet? We are.
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B
No, but, like. Or is that what I even really want? Right.
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A
What was that old show? Whose Line Is It Anyway? Yeah, whose Goal is It Anyway?
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B
Yes. Why? Why is growth the goal every single year? Because capitalism tells you, thank you, thank you.
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A
And we don't operate in the same pace. We're not moving in that same beat.
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B
No, it's in conflict, actually, with everything we know about nature. That's why I think the seasonality piece is actually so helpful to know, like, we are, like, biological beings that at one point were in harmony with nature.
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A
Come on. If you haven't seen Avatar.
- [07:23]
B
And, like, I feel like I've been, like, coming face to face with this more and more in, like, my aging years, like, as a woman of, like, the month, my monthly calendar, and being, like, wow. Like, there are all these ways that if we listen, we can be in sync with or in conflict with what is, like, happening around us. And to, like, some of the themes we talked about earlier, like, where are you forcing it versus where is their flow? And sometimes I feel like the force comes from, like, society is telling us this thing matters. And so we're just chasing it because, like, somewhere someone told us that's what was important, that was the right thing. And then we are banging our head against the wall and we never stop to say, is that what I want? Is that what feels good? Is that aligned? Is that what I say? Still want?
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A
Is that what our community is asking of us? Yes.
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B
Yes.
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A
Because you have to ask yourself, what are we doing all of this for?
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B
Yes.
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A
You know what I'm saying? And I'm not just talking about your personal rules. I'm talking about also how you show up in your organization.
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B
Yes.
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A
You know what I'm saying? And they need to be a mirror. You know what I'm saying? It all has to come back to listening. It all has to come back to the mission. It all has to come back to alignment. If you know me, you know what I always say, Alignment determines your assignment. Do the work. Getting aligned.
- [08:44]
B
Yeah. Okay, so how do you think about that? Because I think what's so interesting is, like, that alignment piece mixed with constant growth and change. Because I think what a lot of people are looking for, especially in this day where there's so much uncertainty, there's so much fear, there's so much hardship. People are, like, desperate for something that feels stable and they're like, oh, I want to figure this thing out. Because once I figure out monthly giving, I'm going to be solid. Once I figure out this new CRM, everything's going to be okay. And I think the reality of change work and change making is actually every year we should be saying, is this still what our community needs? Is this still what people are asking for? Is, is this still the right decision? Given the fact that all of the variables have changed, we should never be like, oh, we're done now. This is the program forever and ever. Like, we're missing the whole plot if that's how we're doing it. So how does alignment and thinking about things through the lens of alignment allow you to grow and change and reflect, but still stay true to that underlying anchorage?
- [09:58]
A
Who you are doesn't change. Like, the internal values that you have for your personal stuff, but also for your organization, Those things should stay aligned. Those things don't change, right? What you do and how you show up the current iteration of it, those can change, right? And I always say our goal is to create space for transformation to take place. Your ultimate goal needs to be, how are we getting to the other side of this mission? Right? How are we creating space for our donors to transform? How are we creating space for our constituents to transform? How are we creating space for our programs to transform? Because remember, we're not attached to the thing. If you're attached to the thing, you have to ask yourself, what am I really doing this for? What is this about? Is it about business as usual or is it about accomplishing this mission and seeing the eradication or the fulfillment of this mission? You know what I'm saying? And so your modes, your method, your methods, they might have to change. So many people. I'm the founder of an organization called Back Black where we direct capital, we enhance capacity and we raise awareness for black led organizations. So many people were like, well, why are you investing so much money into creators? And we were telling stories. We invest a lot of capital in storytelling and really providing resources and whatnot so organizations can tell their own stories. So black leaders can tell their own stories, right? And, and so we're sending camera crews, we're sending teams, we're sending them in these programs. I remember one day I was like, I live in New York City and we were going to all the different boroughs child collecting stories. And we were like, what is the point? And then at the end of the campaign, we saw that these videos were not only driving dollars, but it was getting a real round. So I was telling you this. We had over 42,000 people coming to our website in the month of August. In four weeks or 42, we're pulling more people than your favorite brand. But why? Because I was like, no, we have to be where the people are. This can't just be building. They will come. No, we're going out. We're investing in creative, we're investing in storytelling, we're investing out. We're being out there because we know that the mode of operation has to be different. And so if you're still doing your, okay, well, let me post my one little Facebook post or let me do my. It's just not working. You know what I mean? And so that's why you have to understand, like, don't hold things so tight. You and I talked about this. You have to hold things like this with your hands wide open, right? You hold it with your hands wide open because you have to understand that we. We're here. You're holding your mission, your vision as a steward, right? You have to be a steward. You have to enter with that mindset, right? And it can't just be about you. It can't just be about what your board wants. It has to be, how are we sitting collectively to understand what the change can be, you know what I'm saying?
- [12:48]
B
And trying and testing things, right? It's like knowing that in pursuit of something new, all you can do is be who you are in integrity with your mission and your values and those things, and test and try. Especially if the environment around us is.
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A
Changing so fast every day.
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B
And it's like, that makes us want certainty even more, right? We're, like, so desperate for it because everything else feels uncertain. We're like, God, I just want to check a box and feel proud of myself, right? People keep saying to me, like, oh, just tell me what to do. Just tell me what to do. And it's like, that's just their nervous system, like, grasping for clarity, which makes total sense, right? And it's like, we talked about this a little bit earlier today. Like, what does it look like to be in a place of acceptance with uncertainty so that you're not rocked by it in the same way? You're like, this is part of the. This is the journey. I expected this day so good to be a lot of learning instead of I expected this day to be perfect.
- [13:55]
A
So good. How do you deal with uncertainty, especially in a time when things are so uncertain? You hold on to what is certain, and it goes back to what we talked about earlier. Put your hand on your heart. If your heart is beating, that is certain. You're alive. You're here. You survived all the other beats up until this point. And that heartbeat ain't gonna abandon you. If you're taking a breath in and you're taking a breath out, you understand that that breath is that source of light, and that's not gonna abandon you. If you can see with your own two eyes, you hold on to that truth that I can look around. If you can sense, if you can feel, if you can touch, if you have two feet that you can put on the floor, what is certain, you are here. That's what's certain. And if you are here, it means you can do anything, because you survived all the bad days you've had up until this point, and you're gonna survive all the bad days that come before you, because what is certain, you are here. You know, that's what I would hold onto in this time.
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B
That is why it's so interesting. I've never like connected these dots before in this way. But that's why nervous system regulation techniques are so powerful. Grounding techniques. Right. Because that's exactly what it's telling your body. Like when you do something like 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, which is like five things you see, four things you can touch, three things you can hear, two things you can smell, one thing you can taste. Like the whole point of that is basically, I am here. Right. It's like requiring your system. There's all this research around how the sound of birds chirping is like nervous system regulating or the sound. Because all of those things are like, you are here, you are safe. This is the moment, you know, And.
- [15:48]
A
I never thought about this. We're living in a time that wants you to be disconnected from yourself. Yes. And you have to ask, who profits when you can't hear your own thoughts? Who profits when you can't hear your own internal voice? Who profits when you're constantly in a stage of dis ease? You're constantly being reactive. You're constantly in a mode of having to be on guard. How can you do deep work? How can our communities get the best of us if we're always in that state? I believe that life is disparate by design. 100% disparate by design.
- [16:30]
B
Yeah.
- [16:31]
A
So I always say you have to create boundaries with yourself, for yourself. If you don't say, I'm gonna put a limit on my media, on my screen time. I'm gonna put a limit on how much I allow myself to ruminate. I'm gonna put a limit on whose voices and who has access to me. I'm gonna put a limit on who gets access to my energy. I'm. I'm gonna put a limit on how much I overextend myself. Right. I'm gonna put a limit with myself, for myself. Right. Because right now our communities are relying on us more than ever. I remember we posted about some award. We posted about something through back black and just the amount of organizations who responded. Oh, I remember it was during the holidays. We said, black led organizations need you right now. And the amount of people who shared that post and were like, yes, we really do. I'm like, okay, but it's because we're keeping a. We're grounded. We're consistently listening. Right. But I have to listen to myself first before I can listen to other people. And then I have to surround myself. You know what? That's Another thing I'm gonna say, you have to create a culture of listening.
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B
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. It can't be like, oh, we're going on a listening tour and now our listening is over. And now we're gonna build.
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A
Thank you. Thank you.
- [17:44]
B
Three more years. We'll listen again.
- [17:46]
A
Thank you. It has to be an ebb and flow. It has to be community led growth.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
- [17:52]
A
We're all in this together. And I always believe no matter what I'm doing, we're in this together. We're solving this issue together. It's not just your organization. Your organization of the savior. I don't know who needs to hear this. Your organization, not the savior. You are one part of a grander puzzle and if you are not looking at all the other pieces, you're gonna get lost.
- [18:13]
B
Yeah.
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A
You can't complete the puzzle with just your one piece.
- [18:16]
B
Right. Then it's about ego, not change.
- [18:18]
A
Thank you very much. And you're fundraising to keep your piece afloat.
- [18:23]
B
Totally. I wanna go back for a second to that piece you said about what is designed to keep us dysregulated, basically. Cause I think this is a really interesting conversation we've had at practivated around our marketing and messaging, something I've been really, really adamant about from the very beginning. And my team is obviously so aligned with this, but is like, we will never sell or market through increasing dysregulation. Right.
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A
Can you imagine?
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B
No, but I can't imagine because I get it all the time. Right. It's like everything we see is like, feel bad enough about yourself that you think the only way you can not feel bad about yourself is to buy my thing.
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A
I mean, even look at how the sector talks about it, of organizations.
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B
Yeah.
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A
If you don't donate in this next 24 hours.
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B
Totally.
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A
I'm like, dang.
- [19:14]
B
Yeah. Right.
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A
If you really need me in this next 24 hours, can I actually trust you?
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B
Right, Right.
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A
Yeah. Right.
- [19:22]
B
Like, exactly. Just like we don't want to fundraise by just dysregulating the donors so much that they give some guilt gifts, period. To stop feeling so uncomfortable. Who wants to fundraise?
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A
Who wants that?
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B
No, I don't want that.
- [19:34]
A
The opposite of joy.
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B
I don't want that money.
- [19:36]
A
Because also, you don't understand. You people don't understand. Everything is energy. Yes, Everything is energy. So every dollar that gets invested into you, you want Joy filled dollars.
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B
100%.
- [19:48]
A
Because those dollars can. Those dollars are generative. Joy filled dollars are generative.
- [19:53]
B
Yes.
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A
But if you're giving guilt filled dollars, doubt filled dollars, regret filled dollars, what do you think you're going to reap?
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B
No.
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A
When regret is the seed.
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B
Yes, exactly. People are like, you know, think that donor retention is just tied to, like, what they did after the gift. I'm like, how'd you get that gift in the first place?
- [20:14]
A
Come on. Somebody. Somebody asked me. I made a video about this. You gonna see it? Follow me on LinkedIn. Loy Jones. And I was like, people keep asking, why are my donors leaving? Why am I? And I'm like, it's not about the economy. It's not about your latest gimmick. It's not about the donor for tea. It's about relationship. What was that relationship built on?
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B
Yeah. Do you have a relationship?
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A
Thank you. Cause how you got them is how you. That's what you're saying. You know what I'm saying. If it's just solicitation, an ad here, a thing there, and I'm not saying those aren't good methods. I have something called the four seeds of community building that I always talked about, right? Catalyst, light, the spark, Communicate, Share the story, right? Then you need to convert, share the opportunity, and then catapult, share the baton. That's a process of growth, right? It's always a process of growth for your people. So many people are like, let me host an event, let me do an ad, let me share the video. And it just stays a catalyst. You can't let that spark forever. The spark is gonna go on, but it's not gonna be lit forever. Relationship is what keeps the spark alive. And then they flip it. Because now they need to see themselves in your story, and they need to say, I'm a part of this larger story. We're all in this together. Are you building that roadmap or is it just about your next campaign? That's why you're burnt out. Cause it's just about the next campaign. It's just about the next fundraising. We've created an industry around this.
- [21:39]
B
Yes.
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A
And so many people don't know where to go.
- [21:42]
B
It's so hard because it's like, what comes first, the chicken or the egg? Right? They're like, I already feel disconnected from my donors because we've been running this type of stuff forever. So how do we get out of that rat race, Right? How do we socialize, slow down in order to, like, get aligned? Because right now we've just been managing decline, essentially. And so we don't feel this position of capacity to, like, Reimagine or test or try anything. And so we're just like. I remember talking to somebody once and I'm actually not dissing on direct mail right now because I think direct mail is like, great for some organizations and not great for others. And it's really about looking at it in relationship to your donors and org. So I'm not dissing on direct mail, but they were. This organization was like investing so much in direct mail, they were getting a 3% return marriage.
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A
I help fix it.
- [22:34]
B
And I was like, hey, I have an idea. Actually, it wasn't giving away direct mail, giving up on it, but I was like, I think we need to try something wildly different. And they were like, but what if we raise less? And I'm like, oh. Like, what if you have a 2% conversion rate? You have 3% to lose and 97% to gain. And you are so what? We have 97% to gain. Why are we so. And I think this goes back to a lot of our self belief.
- [23:13]
A
Thank you. And I was gonna say, when you said, what comes first, the chicken or the egg? The first thing that came to me was the farmer. The farmer comes first. You have to say how back. Black has one core program, and that is around Black Philanthropy Month. And it's intentionally that way. And guess what? Our budget grew by 43% last year. People like, huh? I'm like, we do one. I said, I'm not bringing in people to be stressed out.
- [23:47]
B
Yeah.
- [23:48]
A
We're gonna expand when we're ready. I have something called the six figure rule. I talk about this to all my people. I have something called the six. We don't expand to another revenue stream until one revenue stream is bringing in at least six figures.
- [23:59]
B
Yeah.
- [24:00]
A
Because I'm like, I refuse to say we're gonna have major gifts, then we're gonna have recurring gifts and we're gonna have grant program, then we're gonna sell yearbooks and we're gonna do a gala. What?
- [24:12]
B
And, well, 100% power partners is essentially built on exactly that framework for the same reason. And so many of those things. I love that you said make a yearbook because so many of the verticals that we create in fundraising are actually just to, like, get us out of fundraising.
- [24:29]
A
You better, right? I'm like, oh, but they sink us in deeper.
- [24:33]
B
100%. But it's like, oh, I don't actually want to have a conversation.
- [24:37]
A
Thank you. With a donor.
- [24:38]
B
So I'm going to start to sell chocolate. See? And then I'm gonna have this Whole peer to peer coffee scheme. And then Chipotle is gonna sponsor night.
- [24:46]
A
Help, Help.
- [24:49]
B
And let me tell you, it's gonna change my organization. But here's the thing. I was this. I was this cd. I did every single one. That list I just gave you was a real list of my fundraising activities when I was in NBA.
- [25:00]
A
Hey, I did it before, too. We had the bingo nights. We had the raffle tickets. Lord, get the raffle tickets away from me. I can't do it. Your nut is what.
- [25:11]
B
But if I was just having more conversations, 100%.
- [25:15]
A
If I knew then what I knew now, it would have been so different. You know what I mean? But when you know better, that's why we do what we do.
- [25:22]
B
Yeah.
- [25:23]
A
Because my thing is, I work with so many organizations one on one too. And I'm like, man, I wish I could just encourage you to like, close your laptop and go. To go, to go hang out with your people. Yeah, please, please just talk to somebody. You don't know how many people want to be spoken to. They want to believe. So many people want to believe in something. Let me tell you something. I keep going back to back black. Obviously, that's the organization that I lead. And we give out a lot of money annually to black led organizations. But we don't select the winners. We have an independent panel of judges. And when I said we put out a call, and I was like, I wonder if we're gonna get people to actually apply to be judges. We have people from all over the world who applied. Okay. I think it's like 40% of them came back to become recurring donors to the organization because they read all the applications and they were like, this work is so needed and I want to continue being a part of this and make sure. And even the people who didn't donate still signed up again to become judges again.
- [26:24]
B
Wow.
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A
And you have to understand that every single person has a role to play in your ecosystem. This is why I always say people are your partners, they're not your piggy banks. So see them as a partner. Every partner has a role to play. My whole career was based on partnerships. Right.
- [26:43]
B
Yeah.
- [26:43]
A
I was a director of community and partnerships at Give Butter. Right. Like every single aspect of my life is. I truly. That's how I see the world. I see the world through the lens of people and that we are stronger and greater together when we come together. Right. And so, so many of our organizations, another reason why we're stressed out and we're thinking about the raffle ticket and the chocolate bar and all the things is because we are just looking at the dollars that are coming in the door.
- [27:08]
B
Yes.
- [27:09]
A
And I wish people would see that. If you only see a person for how much they give, you will never see the potential of that giver.
- [27:19]
B
Wow. Yeah.
- [27:20]
A
Come on.
- [27:21]
B
Yeah.
- [27:22]
A
Just let it just.
- [27:22]
B
I'm letting it. Integrating.
- [27:25]
A
It's gonna hit.
- [27:25]
B
I mean, it's so, you know, it's so interesting. Cause when I think about. I talk about in my book about how that jumping from thing to thing and the coffee sales and the chocolate is actually like a flight response, right? That's our nervous system in flight. And us really not being comfortable or not being able to handle the discomfort of the pause. Because when you create a new vertical or you start a new thing, or you start a new partnership or a relationship, you do not have certainty in exactly where that's going.
- [28:00]
A
Right. 100%.
- [28:01]
B
You do not. See, the only time we get instant results is when we're cringy, urgent and transactional. That's the only time we get instant feedback. Otherwise, we don't. And we shouldn't. Because what kind of relationship? Like, I was thinking once, like, okay, if I was starting like a new relationship with a mom, would I be like, okay, like, as a first step, like, why don't we like meet at the park for 30 minutes and then if that goes well, like, then I might have you over to my house party, right? And it's like we're trying to like, operationalize. And not that we shouldn't in certain ways, but we're trying to like, over engineer human relationships. And it's like, human relationships are fluid and dynamic.
- [28:45]
A
Please, please look at my 4C methodology. Because so much of donor retention and our idea of it is built around the donor pyramid. And I always say that this is wrong because at the top of the pyramid, it's is major donors. Even how we say, major, right? And it's all about getting a higher gift. And I've said, no, we need to turn this around. It's not about getting a higher gift. It's about helping your donors become a higher version of themselves. Through your work. Yes, through your work. That's why you have to create. You are an architect, you are a bridge. I always say this. You're a bridge between where your donors are and the change that they wanna see in the world. If you are truly operating and building your organization as a bridge, a person cannot step on that bridge and be comfortable just staying at that one spot. They're gonna say, oh, My God. I'm still here. I'm not on the other side. You are leading them brick by brick by brick. And let me tell you something. Please hear me. Please hear me. Each brick is on another dollar.
- [29:51]
B
Yeah. Oh, my gosh.
- [29:53]
A
Sometimes for somebody, it is, but for another person, it's becoming a volunteer. For another person, it's spreading the word. But remember, you're between where your donors are and the change that they want to see in the world. But guess what? On the other side, we're all going to the same destination. A bridge can only take you to one place. We were just on the Golden Gate Bridge today. Come on, somebody shout out to sf. Okay, but guess what? Even on that bridge, there was multiple lanes, wasn't there? Yeah, but we all got to the other side of that bridge. Your goal is to build the lanes. Their job is to be the car, and then they can pick where they want to go. You know what I'm saying?
- [30:32]
B
Totally.
- [30:33]
A
Come on, let me paint the picture. I was giving us her.
- [30:35]
B
And you know what's so interesting about what you're saying is it's like when I heard you say, like, every brick is not a donation. I'm like, 100%. And we don't even pay attention to the people that are laying bricks and donations if those donations are small. I had a call. I had a call with an organization the other day, and they were trying to figure out which hundred donors to kind of prioritize as a part of this special group. They were assembling for something, and I was like, send me. Send me. Like, I want to look at your donor data. So, you know, they. The folks that they were thinking about was, like, they thought they would just sort by largest gift amount and pick the 100 people at the top there. They only had donor data that I looked at that was over the course of 18 months. Okay? So I was looking at 18 months of data for this organization to figure out who. Who would. Who could be a part of this. I was like, y', all, you have somebody on here who dated who donated 47 times. 47 times in 18 months.
- [31:37]
A
So powerful.
- [31:38]
B
Who is that?
- [31:39]
A
Thank you.
- [31:40]
B
I was like, you have somebody else on here who donated 32 times. Who is that? Like, what? What? Like we said, it's so confusing to me sometimes because in some ways, we're, like, constantly asking, as if that's the only metric of engagement, but then we aren't even watching for the people who are engaging that way.
- [32:03]
A
And this is why I say scaling too fast is Irresponsible. You can name your largest donor, but can you name your longest donor? Your most consistent donor? How can one person do that? Because so many of our organizations are strapped. That's why I said, oh, my gosh, life gave me the greatest blessing. God gave me the greatest blessing. Stepping in and building back like this time, after all the things that I've known, because I was like, I am not building a stressed out organization. Everyone's gonna get paid well. We're gonna do deep work and we're gonna scale properly because our people deserve that. I know so many of the leaders in our community, but I'm like, I'm gonna give myself time and space to go deep. Going deep is a gift. It's such a gift. But so many of our organizations are stuck in this phase of never being able to scale because they never allow themselves to scale.
- [33:05]
B
So, okay, so to me, this is like ego work, though.
- [33:08]
A
Come on, somebody. But here's the thing. When we associate our money with our identity, that's a problem.
- [33:18]
B
No, exactly. That's what I'm saying. Because when I hear in you saying that and thinking about the trajectory of your career, I'm like, the reason you are comfortable going deep and slower is because your validation is not just from growth.
- [33:35]
A
That's so true.
- [33:36]
B
And so that is some ego work that you have done.
- [33:39]
A
So true. That's so true.
- [33:41]
B
Right? That is allowing you to like separate like that from the growth of the organization.
- [33:46]
A
That was a friend moment. Because that's a friend. You say, hey, you got that? That's so true. Because I. The amount of things that I've had, when I tell you I got a coach, I got a therapist, I got groups, I got counselors, mentors. It takes a village. It takes a bit. But guess why our hearts are like gardens. What happens in a garden? A weed can pop up. You didn't say weed. I want you to come, but the weed came. But you have to tend to the soil of your heart. You have to continue. You gotta keep on plucking.
- [34:22]
B
Yes. Because you have to remember also that everything is designed to have a million pop up weeds distract you from being your garden.
- [34:31]
A
Oh, don't get distracted. You think that the weed is a flower. It's not a flower just because you see it as green.
- [34:37]
B
Yeah, well, you know what a weed is?
- [34:39]
A
Come on.
- [34:39]
B
A weed is any plant that you did not intentionally plant. There is no definition.
- [34:46]
A
Drops, headphones, walks out.
- [34:49]
B
There are some plants that are a weed in one place and not a weed in another place. Because it's just about whether or not it was intentionally meant to be there. So that is the thing to remember. Like, distraction is the name of the game. That is how we live in an extractive society. And I do want to say to people, like, if you are, like, wait, but, like, Squirrel, you know, I can't. I can't help it, because, like, I'm there too, y'. All. And when we're dysregulated, like, that's really hard. I think part of it is, like, the way we talk to ourselves about how things are designed to throw us off. And so we have to remember if we get thrown off, it's not our fault. It's not because we're bad. It's not because we didn't do a lot of work on ourselves. It's not because. It's because, like, everything is designed to pull us away from ourselves, to tell us their thing is urgent. This thing is what matters. Stop doing this. You know, I tell my daughter Emmy is now six, and screen time has become a thing. And we let her watch the iPad on a plane. It's a plane pad, but at the end of a plane ride, it's hard for her to step away. And one of the things I've talked.
- [35:59]
A
To her about, I show. She loves to go somewhere. She's like, can we get on this plane, y'? All?
- [36:03]
B
She's the best. She's the best traveler. Because she's, like, playing pack.
- [36:07]
A
Right, right, right.
- [36:08]
B
It's playing pack time. But one of the things that's really interesting is, like, she will. It's really hard to stop. And one of the conversations I've had with her and we do the same thing with the tv, actually, is I told her, I'm like, these things are designed so that you can. Can't stop. So we actually have to have these little tricks where we close our eyes and we turn it off. That's how we deal with the tv. I don't try to get her to turn it off while she's still staring at it. It's not designed for that. It's designed to suck you in and never let you go and send you to social media.
- [36:42]
A
All of it. All of it.
- [36:43]
B
So anytime she's looking at a screen, I'm like, remember, these things are designed to not let us walk away. Close our eyes, press the button, walk away. And I think, like, that's the thing. I also want people to hear. It's like that, you know, we need to remind ourselves that, like, things are designed to Distract us. It's our job to close our eyes and walk away. To like, take that pause, you know.
- [37:04]
A
And even quote, unquote, good things. Like, I'm sure your executive director means well. When they're like, we need to do this, this, and this, and we need. They mean well. They wouldn't have gotten into the work if they didn't mean well. But then that's when you have to ask, well, what are they connected to?
- [37:20]
B
Right.
- [37:21]
A
I'm sure your board met.
- [37:23]
B
Well, when they told you to email Mackenzie Scott.
- [37:25]
A
Thank you. They said, why isn't our name on that number? Why didn't we get 45 million? Right. Can y' all get on LinkedIn? Can y' all do something? That's what they saying they mean well. But this is why we said at the beginning there has to be a culture of listening.
- [37:42]
B
Yeah.
- [37:42]
A
There has to be a. We have to start at the top. You gotta reorient. You know what I'm saying? So this goes back to. So say you're at an organization where you're like, okay, we don't do any of that. They don't. I hate the same. They don't do that. Then you now are the catalyst. You now are the person. And also watch the results. And I'm not just talking about the financial results that come in. Watch your internal results. Let Joy be your first KPI.
- [38:12]
B
It's so interesting you started to talk about KPIs, because I was thinking about that. I was like, okay, but in a moment like that, like, maybe your board is telling you to do this thing or your ed, but like, what metrics are you being held accountable to? Because if it's money, if it's relationships, if it's whatever, like, you know what to do. You know, it's not that cringy, urgent thing. And so staying accountable. I think one of the things that I fell into a lot as a nonprofit leader was that a lot of my actions were driven by my people pleasing tendencies and not the goals of the organization. Like, it. Like, this is what I was told to do. But it was so hard for me being an. The hardest thing about being an ED for me was having 13 bosses where 13 different people who. Nobody was happy with me all the time. Right? Some would be very happy with me at the same time that others were not happy with me. And my little people pleasing body was like, I don't like this.
- [39:06]
A
I long for the day when a board meeting is no longer stressful, when it's like everybody is genuinely excited to get there, because we are genuinely excited to eradicate this thing together.
- [39:17]
B
So. Okay, I'm with you. And I feel like part of it was me. I think challenging discourse is great. I think it was my discomfort with everybody not being gung ho about everything that was actually the bigger problem. I agree with you. And there are plenty of toxic boards. And I'm like, oh, my God, please, for the love of God, let's focus on the organization. But I also think there's some times where it's like, it is about us.
- [39:43]
A
Yeah.
- [39:44]
B
It's like, look like it. And that might be your board. That might be your team. That might be. You know, we were talking about this with parenting today. Like, I feel like parenting has been my, like, trial by fire of, like, you have to make decisions that are making the people around you unhappy all the time, and you're getting feedback about it. Call constantly. You know, Emmy, like, the other day, she was just trying to really get under my skin, and she was like, you're the worst mom ever. D. You know, and my. Whatever. She hears that from a friend. I mean, not whatever, but I was like. And at this point, she was sort of, like, teasing me, not really, like, having an emotional reaction anymore herself. And I was like, am I like, the worst, worst mom ever? And she was like, yeah, like the worst worst. And I was like, so I'm number one.
- [40:35]
A
I love the reframe.
- [40:37]
B
And she just started laughing, and I was like, to me, that's like, you know? But I hear all the time how mad she is that I won't let her watch YouTube or how mad that I won't let her wear crop tops or whatever. Right. There's lots of things that make me the least fun mom in the world, but so much of, like, it's like, my job to be a good mom. It's not my job to make her happy every moment of her life.
- [41:01]
A
Come on, somebody.
- [41:03]
B
And I wish I had had that energy and that learning when I was running organizations.
- [41:07]
A
So good. So good. You might not be the CEO of your organization, but you are the CEO of your life 100%. And you set the tone and the bar for how people treat you.
- [41:19]
B
Are we making a plug right now to be on Diary? The CEO?
- [41:22]
A
Come on, somebody. You are consistently letting people know how to treat you if you stop reacting to outlandish requests.
- [41:33]
B
Yes.
- [41:33]
A
And I know times are crazy. I know people be like, I gotta do what they say. Cause have you seen that job market? I know. Yeah, I know. But I also have seen my own Life, my life is evidence. I am not different than you or you are. We are all in this. We're running one race called the human race. And I know that when you listen to your values, when you let your heart beat, when you let alignment be your assignment, the right people come around you, the right jobs come around you. It's gonna be shaky at first, you're gonna get scared at first, you're gonna be uncertain at first. But that's where you grow. That's where the growth happens. It happens in the uncertainty.
- [42:20]
B
You know what's so hard that I've realized for folks in that situation is that so often they're in an environment that's making them realize or making them think that they're not good enough.
- [42:31]
A
Come on.
- [42:32]
B
And that's a super hard like emotional place to then believe you deserve more from. I'll do coaching with folks all the time who the way that their boss talks them or treats them makes them think they don't deserve.
- [42:46]
A
Come on, somebody you been. I don't know how long this episode is, but one thing I will say, one of the biggest blessings. I was like looking on LinkedIn and a former employee commented on one of my posts and was like, you're an amazing coach and an amazing leader. And the way that my heart just like felt so much joy because that person no longer works with our organization. But my intention clearly made an impact and that was like my prayer every time I worked for another organization and I didn't love how something was happening in leadership or whatever, I didn't get mad, I just prayed. I was just like, please, one day I'm gonna have a team of my own. Let me remember this moment and let me choose to be different. Let me choose to be different. Let me always operate in my values. Let me never act out and feel outlandish. Let me not protect my ego. Let me always ask for my values first. I wanted to create an environment that people didn't have to heal from. And it's not gonna be perfect. Let me tell you. I learned we know leading people, but we can only control our intention. And that takes work. You know what I'm saying? And so everything you just said is so spot on. It's like we have to do our self leadership and it's gonna ripple. It's a ripple effect when you drop a stone in the water, it changes everything, everything around it. So we have to be that change, not just in our organizations, but when we make that change, it's going to.
- [44:22]
B
Change our sector 100%, 100%. And for people who are listening, they're like, y', all, my office. Let me tell you. Like, I still think there's all these micro moments that we have to, like, get curious. And, you know, we think, oh, I figure out how to push back. And it's like, actually, sometimes you could just get curious. I hear you being really stressed about money, and tell me why you think a chocolate sale is our best pathway.
- [44:51]
A
There, because I can tell you it's not.
- [44:52]
B
Right. But before you go there, just get curious. You're just like, tell me why you think that's the best. Because I think you and I have talked a lot about space and pause and openness, and I think curiosity is this magic potion to a lot of this because it allows curiosity, allows everybody to get more regulated in a moment, and it creates that pause. Right. It's not just like, oh, you told me to start this, like, peer to peer coffee sale. Okay, let's go. Let's operationalize. Get the to do list, who's doing what, whatever. It's like, okay, look, if that's the best pathway forward, I've got your back, but can I just ask some questions so I understand a little bit more about, like, what are some of our intentions here? What are our goals? What have you been thinking about that's making you feel like this is the best path forward? Truthfully, as a leader, I wish my team did this more with me. And as a leader, you have to create that space. Right. Like, if my team isn't doing it more with me, I'm like, how do I create the conditions for them to do that more with me?
- [45:54]
A
But it's hard when people. I think one of the things that I try to do is one, do your best to hide people who are smarter than you in a specific area. We all have our zones of genius. That was the first thing I learned. I'm like, I'm not a genius here, so let me bring it and give them space to push back.
- [46:11]
B
Yes.
- [46:11]
A
You know what I mean?
- [46:12]
B
Yes. And get curious. I think my team is actually really good at pushing back. But there are times where I think I come in with a level of what I think is certain. But if somebody asked me a few questions, just tell me where that's coming from or, like, what happened that made you think about that? And did that person also tell you about X, Y, and Z? And it's fine if we still arrive at that same decision, but I just want to understand some of that would have, for me also like, opened up a curiosity that. Because everybody gets blinders. And that's the thing. Right? Like, your boss, who's telling you to do that. They are dysregulated. Right. They are chasing something. They're dealing with pressure from the board. And just, like, you're like, right, energy transfers.
- [46:55]
A
Yeah.
- [46:55]
B
And so it's just like, how do we, like, create conversations and moments that stop the energy, that type of energy from just, like, shooting through an organization that then trickles all the way down to our community and our donors and, like, create more, like, curiosity creates some slowness that I think actually is super.
- [47:16]
A
Helpful and important, 100%. I think with every question, it's like a bow, right? You're just getting it ready. So that way when you release it, it's gonna fully fly. Yes.
- [47:27]
B
Yes. All right, so tell me, as we wrap up, tell us, like, what are some of your intentions for 2026?
- [47:37]
A
Flow to continue to operate in. Flow to continue to. What we talked about earlier. Like, remain open. Remain open and just have faith and trust. Like, I am at a point now where I don't always know the future, but I know myself. I've done so much work to know myself, and that feels really good. We spend so many times. It can be so easy to not spend time with yourself. And I'm really learning to just love the skin that I'm in, you know, and treat the skin that I'm in with kindness. And so I'm excited to see what emerges from that. Yeah. And I'm excited for just. Just so many things, so many fun things on the horizon. Just being the fullest fluid I can be.
- [48:29]
B
Okay, last question. What are some habits that you're going to use in 2026 to keep you with those intentions?
- [48:39]
A
We were talking about this earlier. My morning is sacred time. I always get up, pray, journal three affirmations, three gratitudes, do a quick workout, and then I really spend time looking at everything. Like, I really like, okay, here are all the tasks. What is important? What's actually urgent? What is really gonna move the needle, you know? And I've been saying no a lot more. Like, that's almost becoming my favorite word. I'm like, no. No, thank you.
- [49:12]
B
No, thank you.
- [49:13]
A
Yeah, no. Just hit it with a no. No. So, yeah, keep my morning time where I can really have my downloads and then protecting. Cause I feel so on assignment. I feel very much on assignment. I feel very much like I know why I'm here, and I know what I'm supposed to be doing, and I know why I'm moving things forward, and so I'm really aiming to stay in a place where that is protected and I'm not getting distracted. So also, we're doing this thing where we're just trying to be more intentional with our phones too. We're just trying to be more intentional with, like, you know, turning off screen time, like an hour to two hours before bed and really being mindful about our sleep and, like, really honoring our sleep. Right. So, yeah, self care.
- [50:04]
B
I love that.
- [50:05]
A
That and the sauna and my monthly massages. As you can see, I really care for myself, so don't look at my self care budget. My counselor was like, huh? I'm like, it's fine.
- [50:16]
B
Everything comes from there.
- [50:17]
A
100%.
- [50:18]
B
What else is more important?
- [50:19]
A
100%.
- [50:20]
B
Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much for joining me today, for doing this with me.
- [50:25]
A
This was fine.
- [50:27]
B
I forgot we were recording. I'm not. You were like, how long is this episode? And I was like, this is an episode. Correct. You are right. We are recording the fun also, y'. All.
- [50:35]
A
This is our regular combo. This is like our regular how we just hang out.
- [50:42]
B
I truly. I actually did. I was like, episode length, right? Correct.
- [50:49]
A
Grateful for you.
- [50:50]
B
So fun. Thank you.