B (2:59)

Okay, amazing. So tell how did you two get to know each other and start tell us a little bit about the AFP group that you have put together and how that partnership between the two of you started.

A (3:12)

Go ahead, Ashley.

C (3:13)

It's kind of an interesting story. One of our colleagues put out a call on AFP Forum just looking for others who were focused on mid level giving to get together and chat. She received over 100 responses to that, which was way more than she was expecting. And through that she set up a meetup, she did a survey and just kind of got us focused. And then she was promoted and was no longer doing mid level giving. So she put out a call and asked if anyone would be interested in taking over facilitation. And Jeff and I both said yes.

B (3:51)

Okay, amazing. And tell me a little bit about the group and what you feel like, like, what are the biggest questions that people are coming to the group with and what are your goals and hopes in gathering together?

A (4:05)

Yeah, I think so. We have people from across the US in all the time zones, from across Canada who are part of this group. And the group's grown to a little over 200. And some people who are. We just sort of keep a list of everybody who wants to be invited to the upcoming webinars that we're doing. And they're more a shared space. And I think one of the things that's been super cool and Ashley and I have talked about this is it's really hard to create community in an online platform. But the people who are engaged, usually there's like 50 or 60 people who show up each time that we host a different topic and they're unmuting themselves, they're talking, they're asking other questions, other people, they're using the chat. It's really actively engaging. And when we've had some guest speakers, we've told them like, hey, it's not a slide deck, right? You're not presenting. There's no stick here. It's. We're all about generating conversation with the members to find out what's meaningful to you. And I think, Ashley, you can speak to this. Maybe that the topics that we get, there's no preset Topics for the rest of 2026. We know what the next two topics are because they came out of the conversation with from a couple weeks ago. And so we're trying to keep it as responsive to people's needs as possible because sometimes we also find if you're in mid level giving, it's not the only hat you're wearing. So if we can make the topics a little more responsive, it makes the community more engaging.

B (5:29)

What have been some of the topics that people have been really curious to dig into?

C (5:35)

Let's see. It's a lot of memory you're asking for. Our most recent one was on AI and we're planning to do a follow up one in about three months. Probably that was more general AI. We want to focus on prompts. When you're talking to a chatbot, what are you. What can you prompt them to give you a good response? I'm trying to remember what we did.

A (6:00)

Before that real cool one that also came out that I know we're working on. This is our next one up is going to be how do we talk about non cash gifts with mid level donors and the really cool thing. So we had a guest speaker from Freewell, Lauren and she was telling us more about this. And then Ashley is always making sure in the chat that people get to respond and sort of tracking themes. And this kept coming up from people about like well why should we talk about why are we talking non cash with mid level? Why aren't we? And so then Ashley's done a great job of like getting our next couple speakers in line for in a couple of weeks. And the research from Freewell backs we should be talking to our mid level donors about non cash giving because they have an appetite to be educated. Something that was super cool in the fall that got a big draw from people was like how do we do up our stewardship matrix? Because people were like I'm wearing multiple hats, I'm not or I am full time in this. And so we had two different people from the group presented their stewardship matrix and one was I am full time in steward donor stewardship for the mid level. And the other person was Yeah, I wear 73 other different hats. So it was really good to get those two examples. And that's where it came why we did early January the topic was ethical and effective AI because this balance was well, I have a bigger portfolio than my major gift officer colleagues. I need help. How do I do this and still be personable? And so it was really good to have January's conversation to sort of as a follow up from the one we did last. The last one we did in 2025 on stewardship matrix and we've had a couple organization present their stewardship tactics that they've done really well. And Ashley, maybe you want to speak to like something that's really mission focused, like your paperclip idea. It's small but it's so connected to the mission and it helps to get direct mail open. So I think that's an awesome thing to share with everybody who's going to listen. Mallory.

B (8:08)

Yeah, that was going to be my next question. What are some of the coolest ideas for mid level programs that you've heard in some of these threads? So why don't we start with that?

C (8:17)

So I got this idea from John Lepp in Creative Deviations. He loves the paperclip and kind of the idea when you receive something in the mail, you want people to open it. So how do you get them to open that envelope? And by including a paperclip in there, they're feeling it. They say what is this? Kind of like the orgs that did the dime included and you feel something, it's tactical. You want to open it. So I took that a step further and with us being associated with the zoo, I found some really cute zoo animal paper clips. I bought way more than I needed. I have plenty to last me for a couple years because there are a lot of fun ones. And I even received feedback from donors who received that and they say oh it was so nice. You of course with mid level I always do a handwritten note but that. So they'll mention that. And they say the paperclip was so cute. And it's really funny if you can find something that correlates with what your mission is. That is just something small, kind of. What do you give someone who has everything? An elephant shaped paperclip, of course.

B (9:29)

So cute. I'm like, oh my gosh, my kids would have loved to open that one. Can we actually back up for a second? How do you all define mid level? I think mid level is often referred to as this sort of like forgotten middle child. And I wonder if some of it is that our definitions of mid level like by organization can vary so widely. So how do you think about and talk about that definition in this community?

A (9:53)

We've left that definition open to our community members so that it's not defined because I've worked with different organizations on their mid level programs and for some organizations mid level starts at $250 a gift for other organization, it starts at 50,000 and so it's. So using the dollar metric is not an identifier of mid level. Right. And so everyone, if they go back to like the middle. You mentioned middle child how I like to sort of refer to this. This is more of like the donor that's asleep in the data. So if someone is analytical or they have great database person, it's like run, do some segments and see, see who. Which segments do not naturally upgrade on their own. If you do a look back of five, three years and you're pretty flat, right? You have high retention. Right? Because sometimes we report high retention to our supervisors. But if you have flat giving, those donors are asleep and that's where you're sort of looking and say what are the other attributes? Do these people, are they volunteers? Are they docents with us? You know, are they involved in our events? How what are their non cash behaviors that go with their flat giving? And so that's what in our community we haven't asked people to necessarily define because everyone's working with different parameters in their organization. But we're trying to really look for this is a donor that they could do more, but they need a relationship. And even in the stewardship matrix, when we had that conversation and I think even Nathan and Lauren who were our guest speakers in January, they were like, pick up the phone, pick up the phone and call the donor. And they, Lauren shared, great statistic that I think there would be about 40% that don't want a phone call, but the other 60% want to talk to you and that's the way you're going to move that relationship forward. And I think this underutilized segment in the data, it's a real gem for organizations when they can focus some energy and attention on those donors.

C (12:06)

Jeff brought up a great point that we haven't really focused on relationship building as a theme throughout, but it has come up naturally in every single one of the meetups so far.

B (12:17)

Well, it's interesting because I don't know if you know this, but I run a technology company called Practivated where we help people practice donor conversations. And people always ask like, oh, is this just for major gifts? And I'm like, why are those the only relationships you're building? Like no, it's so interesting hearing you say that. And I'm curious, like I know there's this tension right between okay. Especially for those folks that don't just have a mid level portfolio, they're balancing 73 different things. I Hear this from fundraisers all the time, right? They're like, I have to prioritize my time. How do I prioritize my time? And I feel like a lot of this mid, these mid level segments, they're having trouble connecting the kind of like intentional relationship building that they're doing with larger, more involved donors. And then they're sort of like one to many email communications and direct mail or and then in the middle like they're having trouble thinking through what to prioritize with some of those like maybe sleepy segments. Is it phone calls? Are there other engagement touch points that you recommend for the folks who are like, how do I even begin to acknowledge the fact that we have these mid level donors? What are some of the things that you two recommend or that you've heard recommended in some of these gatherings of just where to start?

A (13:43)

Which is something that I think why Ashley and I sort of clicked when, when Jen gave us this opportunity to, to facilitate the group. And it was just by we volunteered voluntold and stepped up to help. But the process that like Ashley had shared that with me, how she engages mid level and how Catapult also does it really matches, right? And so we give the opportunity to the donor to want to give, right? They have to, you know, if they want to renew, they want to be engaged again. And that really acts as like how do we prioritize those people who are ready, right? Because people who, if you have to chase someone to renew their gift, they're probably not your best mid level prospect. And then there's a qualification period actually you could probably speak further to that of like how your sequence. But if they're not ready, they're not going to respond, right? And when we share communication, the communication by email, by phone says please expect a call. And so these donors know you're going to call them. The other thing that, so Mallory and Ashley, you all probably know, Penelope Burke and I followed her for years and at Catapult when we were developing mid level programs I sort of took from her research and she was always like personable, powerful, prompt seven stewardship touch points. I was like, okay, how do we do this with it? This goes back to your question Mallory, of like you can't just call them to ask for a gift, right? And so there's calling to thank them for their support and not at a time where it's like, okay, I'm going to call them this week and next week I'm going to ask. No, it's just, it's you're Setting your campaign, when am I thanking the donor for their loyal support? And in that conversation I need to learn why they like us, what is it about us? Because we have different areas of support. Other touch points, something that's really fascinating. Catapult works a lot in public media. If you call a donor to wish them happy birthday. And this may be it's public media that's unique because it's sort of that they consume the media and they can't yell back at the radio or the tv. But when they get this two way dialogue and someone remembered their birthday, they make gifts in the coming days after you call them to wish them a happy birthday. It's, it's awesome and it's a great trend to see something else that's super cool that works is calling them to wish them like a happy anniversary on the date of their gift. A gift anniversary because no one remembers like hey, my first gift was March 6th of 1992. And it helps you have a conversation around loyalty. Ashley, what are some of the other touch points that y' all use? I know those are some of the entry level ones to get donors talking.

C (16:29)

Well, with the background in annual giving, I'm very much all about the multi channel. So just reaching out in any way because everyone's going to have a different way that they want to respond. A different preferred method of communication. So phone calls, mail, add a personal note to something is one of my favorites. Have someone else call them instead of hearing from you all the time. I haven't done this, but one idea I've had is when someone makes a especially if it's a significant gift for them and they're managed by another gift officer, I can call them and say hey, I was just talking to so and so and I heard about this, thank you so much. And it's just coming at them from all different angles I think is so important.

B (17:15)

What would you say to somebody who says, well I'm worried about calling them or reaching out to them personally because I think they just like more distant, you know, one too many communications. And what if I ruin their annual giving by bothering them? I did air quotes for people listening, right? Like I'm thinking about all the fears that people hear in their heads maybe that stop them from nurturing that relationship or picking up the phone. Like what do you say to folks to encourage you share that statistic? Jeff, before like 60% of your people want to hear you on the phone and hear different ways you can have meaningful touch points that aren't about gifts but are about celebration. Like, what are some other ways you kind of help folks move through the discomfort that might arise from taking this more passive relationship into a more active relationship.

A (18:06)

Yeah. I work with a lot of volunteer solicitors as well, and something that I tell them is like, you cannot put the no in the donor's mouth. Okay. Get out of your own way. It's not about you. Right. And so, like, you know, it's not about Ashley working for the foundation. It's about the impact that they create every day with the hundreds and thousands of people that come and visit. Right. It's not about, like, Ashley sending out the direct mail piece. Right. It's not about, like, Jeff sending that email or giving that phone call. It's about the mission. And so that's what I encourage and coach people through is like, get out of your own way. It's not about you. And that's what I would practice. Like, when I worked on the front lines, it's like, okay, who am I calling today? I'd write their names down the day before, and I'd be, okay, I know I'm going to sleep on it. I'm going to come in the office and it's a sticky note on my desk. And afterwards, I'm going to rip the sticky note off because I'm good. And I put my case notes in my CRM. That was how I would motivate myself, is that I needed a checklist. I needed to know what I was going to accomplish. But, yeah, it's. Don't put the no in the donor's mouth, actually. How do you tackle that?

C (19:10)

Yeah, well, phone calls are scary, and asking for money is scary. But I think it's so important to remember that that's not what we're doing. We are giving the donor an opportunity to make a difference with something they are passionate about. And that's. I mean, they can say no if they want to, but when they say yes, they're going to receive the most wonderful feeling in the world, and they know that they made a difference. They're going to be grateful to you even though all you did was offer them this opportunity. And it's really. It's just an amazing feeling all around.

B (19:47)

Jeff, are you a behavior designer? Are you trained in habit and behavior design at all?

A (19:52)

No. Tell me more about that.

B (19:54)

No. Just hearing what you were talking about before, I'm like, ooh, he's designing for these behaviors in really cool ways. Like that piece around writing down the list of people the day before, like, something I do with a lot of my clients is like to make the action easier for us to do. We can sort of like separate the scary parts. Right. So if our goal for the day is just to identify the donors we're going to reach out to and then maybe the next day it's to write down the phone numbers of those donors and then the next day it's to type in one of the phone numbers and press send. You know, there's all these ways we can help get ourselves over the action line when we feel fear or resistance. So I love that the way you said that and sort of like slept on it. That's actually an amazing behavior design strategy. And then the other thing I was going to point out that I love is just to highlight for folks like something we talk about in habit and behavior design is like in order for a donor to take action, three things have to come together in a given moment. The motivation to take the action, the ability to take the action and being prompted to take the action. So that piece around the birthday phone call is you're increasing their motivation for the organization. So the next time they hear that prompt, the commercial on the radio show, the that tells them about donating, they have gotten higher on their motivation access to be able to get over the action line. And so a lot of the things that you all are talking about, even if it doesn't require or incite a response in that exact moment. Right. You're not asking them to give in that exact moment. You're actually setting them up for more success the next time a prompt enters their thing. So you're just giving a lot of. I just wanted to sort of highlight for folks part of why those things are so powerful.

A (21:31)

Well and that's something like go back to this behavior modeling design. Something that's really important when you're on the phone with a donor is that you need to bond with them. Right. Because you have to establish trust and mid level donors. We're not always taking the time to go meet in person. Some of us have regional based portfolios or national portfolios. We can't travel as easy. And so when you're pick up the phone and picking up the phone is the second most personalized way to, to connect with a donor as opposed to face to face. So you have to figure out how to bond with that donor. And there's if you're someone you're going and you look at your portfolio, you're like hey, here's what I'm going to call today. Why am I talking to them. Why do I think that they want to hear from me? And a great thing to do is always share stories by email or mail and call and have a conversation about it or if you know what they're giving preferences are, maybe you have an update to share with them. I was just speaking with one of our partners about legacy giving. I was like this is a great update to give that donor. Call them because tell them what you're doing because they're like I don't know if they're a legacy donor. I was like don't jump around and skid around the issue. Talk to them. Go and tell them what you're going to do, what you're going to roll out in the coming months and see how excited they get, pick up the phone and give them a call. Yeah, it's just getting over the self talk because sometimes we talk ourselves out.

B (22:52)

Of things totally and we over complicate it because we're understandably uncomfortable or afraid or you know we have that one angry phone call donor in our brain forever. That happened five years ago and so 100% okay. I love that advice and I think it's a such a great place to end on. Tell folks where they can go to learn more about the AFP affinity group and then also be able to connect with each of you.

A (23:16)

Well maybe Valerie, what we should do is like when there's a link to sign up because Ashley and I found that there was a lot of interest. So we're how are we going to do this and manage everyone's interest to keep everyone engaged. And so that's something that if you want to tag that in the show and put the link that people can go and they sign up and then I get a, an auto response and then make sure that they get invited to the upcoming events. But yeah, it was like Ashley said we it was on the AFP forum and it just became a little bit bigger.

B (23:48)

It's amazing. I love that momentum and energy. So we'll make sure that link is tagged in the show notes and then I can include both of your LinkedIn profiles as well if people want to connect with you directly. Jeff, learn more about the support that you all provide organizations and get to follow along and connect with you both further. Does that sound good?

A (24:10)

Yeah, I think that's awesome if they connect with us on LinkedIn because then both of us can make sure that they get invited to the upcoming opportunities. And Ashley mentioned we're going to do non cash giving for mid level donor conversations and then we're going to Another one is like how we're going to master the AI prompts because we found there's a little bit too much AI for all of us. And so how do we write the best prompts and how do we keep using these, these good prompts to help us with our capacity and mid level giving?

B (24:39)

Yes. I love it. I love all of that. Thank you both so much for joining me today. I'm so grateful and you dropped much, so, so many nuggets of wisdom for folks to be able to take away and start to play within their own mid level giving strategy.

C (24:52)

Thank you for having us.

A (24:53)

Awesome. Thanks for having us.

B (25:00)

I hope today's episode inspired or challenged you to think differently. For additional takeaways, tips, show notes, and more about our amazing guest and sponsors, head on over to Malloryerickson.com and if you didn't know, hosting this podcast isn't the only thing I do every day. I coach, guide and help fundraisers and leaders just like you. Inside of my program, the Power Partners Formula Collective Inside the program, I share my methods, tools and experiences that have helped me fundraise millions of dollars and feel good about myself in the process. To learn more about how I can help you, visit Mallory Erickson and. Com powerpartners Last but not least, if you enjoyed this episode, I'd love to encourage you to share it with a friend you know would benefit or leave a review. I'm so grateful for all of you and the good hard work you're doing to make our world a better place. I can't wait to see you in the next episode.