301: Building Values-Based Alumni Relationships in Higher Education with Howard Heevner

Summary

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What the Fundraising, Ep. 301

Building Values-Based Alumni Relationships in Higher Education

Host: Mallory Erickson
Guest: Howard Heevner, Executive Director of Annual Programs, UC Berkeley; Co-founder, National Alumni Survey
Date: May 26, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this lively episode, Mallory Erickson talks with Howard Heevner about how higher education institutions must rethink alumni engagement and fundraising. Drawing from data in the National Alumni Survey, Howard and Mallory explore why traditional fundraising models are failing, the difference between assumed and earned trust, and what it really takes to build meaningful, values-based relationships with alumni in a changing landscape. The conversation moves beyond quick fixes, calling for a fundamental mindset shift in the sector.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The National Alumni Survey: Purpose & Scope (03:00–05:53)

• Howard’s Background: Nearly 30 years in higher ed fundraising, experience at six universities of all sizes.
• Survey Origins: The National Alumni Survey was created to add context to declining alumni donor numbers and challenge sector assumptions.
• Scale: In its third year—over 155,000 survey responses from 65 institutions across the U.S.
• Accessibility: Participating schools receive individual data reports at no cost, promoting equity in data access and use.

“We were sitting around a table and just trying to figure out: how do we get context to that? How do we stop talking to each other and start actually listening to the community we’re trying to move in a collective way?”
— Howard Heevner (03:47)

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2. Core Findings and Key Surprises (06:04–07:33)

• Most Non-Donors Are Still Philanthropic: >60% of non-donors give somewhere—just not to their alma mater. Including volunteerism, that climbs to 70%.
• Assumed Loyalty is Gone: The old model assumed trust and loyalty. Now, younger generations need earned trust and seek values alignment.
• Major Generational Divide: There are two cultures—under 45 and over 45—with drastically different mindsets regarding giving.

“Our messaging and our structures are built under the idea of assumed trust. … Those under 45 live in a world of earned trust. Loyalty is not a marriage to loyalty; it’s a marriage to values.”
— Howard Heevner (06:56)

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3. Student vs. Alumni Experience: The Transactional Trap (08:29–11:00)

• Resource Disparity: Campuses invest heavily in attracting and supporting students, but often neglect relationship-building for alumni.
• Transactional Mindset: By “selling” the student experience, institutions teach transactional relationships, which don’t magically switch to loyalty after graduation.
• Cultural Reference: Comedian John Mulaney’s bit about getting fundraising asks from his alma mater after paying for his degree is cited as emblematic of this disconnect.

“We’re teaching a transactional methodology of connectivity with them when they’re coming in as students. … We expect them to suddenly shift to a loyalty mindset because we gave them a degree that they feel like they purchased.”
— Howard Heevner (09:03)

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4. The Problem of Not Feeling Known (12:14–15:38)

• Empathy for Alumni: Institutions treat alumni as frozen in time, reaching out based on who they were at 18, not who they are today.
• Technological Opportunity: Advances can help personalize communications and make alumni feel “known”—but the sector is only beginning to harness them.

“We act like you’re that first person still. … I treat you like you’re 18 and you have the same values and importance. … The tools exist for us to do better and we should do better.”
— Howard Heevner (16:03–18:12)

• Thought Experiment: What matters to someone at 18 vs. decades later is often vastly different; outreach must evolve accordingly.

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5. Transitioning from Transactional to Relational Fundraising (19:17–22:05)

• Personalization Drives Giving: When fundraising becomes relevant to someone’s current interests, the potential for engagement—and for larger gifts—increases.
• Symptom vs. Cause: Increasing message volume is a symptom of the problem. The cause is lack of meaningful listening and relevance.
• Warning on Technology: Without a mindset shift, AI and automation may only amplify bad practices (spam, irrelevance).

“When donor counts started going down, what we all did is increase volume. So all we did is reinforce that we weren’t listening. … I’m worried we’re going to increase volume and not increase listening again.”
— Howard Heevner (21:32)

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6. Listening as Infrastructure & The Role of Technology (23:18–28:50)

• Every Signal Counts: Both engagement and lack of engagement send important signals—most schools only track gifts, not sentiment or nuanced interaction.
• Modern Direct Marketing vs. Choice: Too little choice can be alienating; creating agency and options is more engaging than forced-choice fundraising.
• Surveys are Engagement: The very act of asking for feedback is a way to begin engagement for non-donors.
• Sentiment Analysis Opportunity: Tools like AI can begin to pick up on alumni sentiment, if used right.

“Every response or non-response is a signal to us about where the relationship stands. … We’ve grown numb to ‘only this percentage of our emails are opened’ … But what if we cared more? What if we tracked what they didn’t respond to?”
— Howard Heevner (23:18, 23:50)

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7. Changing What We Measure & Sector Culture (26:17–28:52)

• Lagging vs. Leading Indicators: If institutions only track lagging indicators (dollars raised), that’s what gets prioritized—regardless of stated values about relationships.
• Openness to Feedback: Institutions fear asking alumni what they think, worried about negative responses. Yet engagement begins when people feel heard.

“Don’t tell me what you care about, show me what you track. … Because I don’t care if you tell me you care about building great relationships. If all you track are lagging indicators … everybody on your team is driving towards the thing you’re measuring.”
— Mallory Erickson (27:33)

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8. Practical Next Steps & Closing Thoughts (29:11–30:38)

• Where to Learn More: Howard shares that the National Alumni Survey and updates are available via LinkedIn (@HWHeevner). Schools can sign up to participate in future survey cohorts.
• Vision: Howard hopes the survey will become a must-read like Giving USA, helping to transform sector understanding and practices.

“My aspiration is this becomes … like Giving USA, where people are looking forward … to have a clearer picture of what’s happening that goes beyond the numbers.”
— Howard Heevner (29:45)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Assumptions in Fundraising:

  • “Even if they had the best time here ever, unless they see this really relevant application to their investment right now, they’re not connecting the dots.”
    — Mallory Erickson (07:33)

• On Relationship Infrastructure:

  • “Listening is infrastructure. And that is one of my big things.”
    — Howard Heevner (25:38)

• On Technology and Bias:

  • “We can only fix a problem that we admit is a problem.”
    — Mallory Erickson (26:38)
  • “No one’s got this figured out yet. … It took us 50-plus years to build a broken system. So it’s going to take us a while to unbreak the system.”
    — Howard Heevner (16:38)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Howard’s Story & Survey Overview: 02:28–05:53
• Key Findings / Generational Divide: 06:04–07:33
• Student v. Alumni Experience Trap: 08:29–11:00
• Feeling Known & Personalization: 12:14–18:12
• Transactional vs. Relational Model: 19:17–22:05
• Role of Technology in Listening: 23:18–25:38
• What We Track Defines Us: 26:17–27:57
• Action-Oriented Engagement & Surveys: 27:57–29:11
• Where to Learn More: 29:21–30:27

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Final Thoughts

This episode dismantles old fundraising myths and pushes higher ed advancement professionals to “stop talking to ourselves and start listening to the community.” From actionable survey strategies to philosophical shifts on what constitutes an alumni relationship, Howard Heevner lays out a path toward relevance, agency, and authentic engagement. As automation and data tools evolve, the heart of successful fundraising will be listening, adapting, and making alumni feel truly seen.

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Learn more or connect with Howard Heevner:

• LinkedIn: HWHeevner
• National Alumni Survey updates and participation info available via LinkedIn

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Transcript

[Mallory Erickson]

Do you ever feel like fundraising is a little foggy? Like you have goals to hit, donors to connect with, and about 12 tabs or 47 open trying to figure out what actually works. The good news is that you don't have to figure it out alone. The 2026 donor perfect community Conference is a free virtual event designed to help fundraisers clear their vision, illuminate what's possible, and get glowing results. Join me and some other amazing speakers on June 2nd and 3rd for practical tools, real stories from nonprofit leaders, and a supportive community that truly understands the work. Because when fundraisers come together, we know that things start to look a whole lot brighter. Register now for the Donor Perfect community [e-mail] donorperfect conference.

[Howard Heavener]

Every response or non response is a signal to us about what where the relationship stands.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Howard Heavener]

And we have not trained our systems to read those signals.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Howard Heavener]

Every click or even not click is a communication to us. And we have also grown numb to oh, only this percentage of our emails are opened or clicked through or et cetera. Right. Like, the percentages are tiny and that's the nature of the marketplace.

[Mallory Erickson]

Hey, my name is Mallory and I'm obsessed with helping leaders in the nonprofit space raise money and run their organizations differently. What? The fundraising is a space for real and raw conversations to both challenge and inspire you. Not too long ago, I was in your shoes, uncomfortable with fundraising and unsure of my place in this sector. It wasn't until I started to listen to other experts outside of the fundraising space that I was able to shift my mindset and ultimately shift the way I show up as a leader. This podcast is my way of blending professional and personal development so we, as a collective inside the nonprofit sector can feel good about the work we are doing. Join me every week as I interview some of the brightest minds in the personal and professional development space to help you fundamentally change the way you lead and fundraise. I hope you enjoy this episode, so let's dive in.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Welcome everyone. I am so excited to be here today with Howard Sedner. Howard, welcome to what the fundraising is.

[Howard Heavener]

Thank you so much for having me. It's really great to be here and I appreciate the invitation.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Oh, I'm so excited for this conversation and for everybody to get to learn more about your work. Just start by telling folks a little bit about you, what you do today, and then the national alumni survey in particular that we're going to get to talk about.

[Howard Heavener]

Yeah. Well, I'm Howard. I have been in higher ed fundraising for almost 30 years. I started as a substitute student called at the University of Iowa. So I had to convince other kids to take the day off in order for me to, to get my shifts to pay my rent. And so that's how I started my fundraising career. I always say I'd start the most entry point possible. I've worked at six universities across my career. I've looked at, worked at private schools and kind of smaller regional schools, regional publics and then big schools like UC Berkeley, where I'm at now. I'm executive director of annual programs and really just kind of traditional annual giving to pipeline parents. Fundraising is part of my work there. And then I co created the National Alumni Survey, which is this project that we put together to begin to add context to what we're seeing in the actual donor numbers across the country over the last 30 plus years. When you look at donor counts, whether it's a public school or private school, you see declining donor counts, not just participation. I think that's a different question and issue. But really the raw number of donors have declined over that 30 year period and it's happened regardless, with the exception of the schools that are just kind of outright selling socks. Like otherwise donor counts have kind of been trickling down it. And we were sitting around a table and just trying to figure out like, how do we get context to that, how do we stop talking to each other and start actually listening to the, the community we're trying to move in a collective way.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

I love that and I love the work inside the survey which we're going to get to dig into because I think one of our, the challenges we always experience in this sector is being so dependent on lagging indicator data without necessarily connecting it to the leading indicators that are getting us there. And, and then we're so. I love that you are doing this. I'm curious for you. So give us like a high level of the report for folks who are not like me, who've been nerding out on this for the last few days. So give us a high level.

[Howard Heavener]

Yeah, well, first, anyone who is nerding out on the report are definitely my people. It got a little long this year. We got done with it and I was like, ooh, it's 30 plus pages like that. It's a lot. So on my LinkedIn, I've been trying to break down each of the insights on LinkedIn to make it more bite sized. I'm not sure that that's working or not, but I am trying. So the report, this is the third year of the report. This year we had over 82,000 alumni surveys across 31 institutions across the three years. Now we're at 155,000 alumni surveys across 65 institutions. We're turning the corner to start recruiting schools to participate in next year's report. I think a key thing for everyone to know too, is that schools who participate get the alumni survey and the data back for individuals at no cost. It's one of my, like, driving forces in this is that we need to have greater accessibility to quality surveys and people need to use them. And so each school also gets back an individualized report that's just kind of basic, but kind of gives a little bit of understanding, and then they're part of this greater report. I think that within this report is a lot of different stories that you can learn about what's happening. A couple things for me, for sure, is that we have two different, really kind of schools of philanthropy culture happening at the same time. Those kind of under 45 and over 45. And I think that that's really informative as we think about the model we have and that it was built on those who are over 45, 40 plus years ago. And so I think that anyway, so for me, that's kind of one of the places it's brought me to is that kind of like clarity around one of our challenges.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Were there any other kind of big surprises or trends that you've noticed in the last three years that you want to make sure we don't kind of miss when folks are looking at.

[Howard Heavener]

Yeah, I always like to just have to stop. The first aha. Moment I had when we started looking at this data, it's actually the moment when I said this is actually something worth doing more of is this is we're looking at the non donor population and what percent of them reported giving to someplace other than their alma mater? And so over 60% of the non donors report giving elsewhere, not to their alma mater, but someplace else. And when you start to include things like volunteerism, that bumps up to, I think, to close to 70% in the most current report. That is a fundamental departure from our belief in higher education, that the reason why our alums aren't giving is they're uneducated about giving. Like, this is the conversation that I've sat around many tables and had where we're told that we've expressed we have to educate them about giving. Well, they are educated. We educated them. And so the issue is actually that what we're trying to get them to buy into, they're not picking up anymore. And so, which is a fundamental kind of challenge that we face is that our messaging and our structures are built under the idea of assumed trust. Right. Assumed loyalty. And those under 45 live in a world of earned trust. And loyalty is not, it's not a marriage to loyalty, it's a marriage to values. So we have to have a fundamental mindset shift from a high trust, high loyalty construct to a earned trust, high values construct. And I think that to me, that one number like just rattled my brain and changed the way I approach the work fundamentally.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Wow. I mean, I think there's so many takeaways in there. And this sort of relates to, you know, one of the insights around how alumni feel good about the product, like meeting their education, but less about the relationship. And one of the things I remember being in there, I'm. I'm probably gonna misquote it exactly as it was, but was around like the recommendation to kind of stop leading with pride and start leading with relevance. And that related to a lot of things I talk about in my work too. But it sort of struck me that it almost feels like there's this assumed if they knew about giving, understood giving, and could give, they would because they love us. And that, that's been, this is this long time assumption and what you're saying is like incorrect. Like, even if they had the best time here ever, unless they see this really relevant application to their investment right now, they're not connecting the dots between that positive experience and why they should give.

[Howard Heavener]

Absolutely. And I think that my co founder, Sarah Kleberger, who is like the best human being by the way it has always says about the perspective on student experience versus alumni experience is just to have people stop for a second and reflect about the type of resources we put into the student experience versus the type of resources we put in for the general alumni population. So no wonder it's a very. It's this huge disparity in experience because we're investing so much more in what that student experience is like because we're more invested. Right. In kind of selling the student experience. You look at what institutions are doing to like upgrading cafeterias and dorm rooms and all these things to help make that student experience more valuable. But that's a transactional mindset. And so we're teaching a transactional methodology of connectivity with them when they're coming in as students because we're selling this idea of an experience and they come out as alumni and we expect them to suddenly shift to a loyalty mindset. Because we gave them a degree that they feel like they purchased. And that kind of. In that kind of like, shift from pride to relevance. Right. Is this kind of same idea of, like, this pride, this loyalty, this sense of obligation. Right. We lean a lot into, traditionally lean a lot into, like, well, someone did for you, so you should do for someone else. And we have a generation that we have partly taught right. Through, like, the transactional mindset of some of these things. And, like, we've kind of the need is. So I think the transformation is still promised of education, but I think it's actually more of like, how are we going to get you a job? Right. I think that's kind of. We've shifted to that to be relevant in the marketplace. But when we go to the other side of that. And now deal done. Right. If you go back to, you know, it's actually one of the. It's super annoying and they always hate when it's brought up, but it's actually very relevant. Is the John Mulaney bit. Have you ever seen it about him talking about, oh, my gosh, you should look this up. Anyone who hasn't seen it should look this up if you care about higher ed fundraising. John Laney has a whole bit about going to Penn and getting a fundraising letter from Penn and him being. And his kind of punchline is, I already gave you my money. I gave you $125,000 for a degree. Why are you asking me for money? Right. And that transactional thing. And he is, I think, really right at the cusp of that age that I think that with kind of this delineation we're having. So, yeah, I mean, we've taught them and society has taught them that this is a transactional process. But then we have not transitioned. We have this kind of, like, superior expectation on the other side that's going to magically transform them into a loyalty construct relationship.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Howard Heavener]

Without any other other kind of work to that. So.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yes. And we see those patterns across nonprofit fundraising, too. Right. Like, we've seen. There's this great book called Hooked on a Feeling that dives into the science of, like, gifting as a part of donations, like we used to see on websites a lot more like, make this $15 donation. Get this water bottle. Right. And then what we saw was exactly the same thing, like a transaction relation. Right. And transactional relationship was set up from the very beginning. And then that has no impact actually on their, like, loyalty relationship connection. That. And we've sort of built the habit in the wrong way we've built the participation habit in that sense. Like, also in that. In that wrong way. So I'm curious, like, okay, when you think about that piece of it. And then there was another insight in there that I was like, really? I've been kind of grappling with, without a complete thought around, which is that people don't. Alumni don't feel known by their alma mater. And first, I'm curious, does that. Do you feel like that's new? Like, do you feel like alumni used to feel more known and for some reason that's a lost experience?

[Howard Heavener]

I don't know, honestly. Really, I've had that thought before, too. It's like, has this changed or not? There's so many things I know have changed. I feel like I've changed. Right. You can see it in the data. This question along with the question of, like, well, are we just seeing with, like, millennials and Gen Z, aren't they just doing, like, wouldn't these trends look similar for Gen X and the boomers when, like, is this a life stage issue? So let me say first, it is not a life stage issue, because millennials are now 45. Like, that transition should have happened, and it just has not happened. So we'll just put that aside for a second. Answering a question you didn't ask. It's just, I know this is going to work for people, but, yeah, I mean, it's hard to know. And I think what's true, I think we're diagnosing a problem that likely has existed over time is that as a structure, we're not built to know our alumni. We're taught not to care, only taught to care about the transactional part of our relationship with them until they become big enough donors that then we care about who they are. Right? You see that? And there's a chart that shows, like, the lifetime giving. Someone who feels known, I think it's known, and it's like a half million dollars. Someone who feels sort of known, and it's like let's say 50,000 or 30,000. And then somebody who doesn't feel known is like 4,000. Right? And so we have built a model. So likely, right. All those people in that half million range have got gift officers working with them. And those people in the next range has probably got intermittent kind of connectivity, and then otherwise are just kind of like a blank slate. And so I feel like, I don't know if it's a structural problem, probably a structural problem we've had over time, but I think that we have technology rising now that can help us actually get to those answers that we have not had before in a successful way. And I think that to me is like, that's why we kind of pull that forward. It's like we actually have things coming online now that can help us have people feel known. And one of those things also is just listening more. How do we listen and reflect that listening back?

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

So, yeah, I appreciate that so much. And I'm kind of trying to think about what role that plays, that being known plays in folks desire to be engaged. Like as a completely independent experience versus when it's connected to something. Like then the invitation that is being made to that person to get involved. So like, I think I went to University of Michigan for undergrad. I hope we can still be friends. Friends. I grew up a bear.

[Howard Heavener]

I worked there. I worked at Michigan for a short period of time. So I did my time.

[Mallory Erickson]

Okay.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Okay, great. So great. And there's a lot of cool synergies between the two schools. But I think about when I was reading this the other night, I was like thinking about like, do I care how much Michigan knows me? Like, does it bother me that I don't feel known by them? And what I kept landing on was it wouldn't bother me until I got an invitation that felt super disconnected. Like, if I got an invitation that was like, hey, volunteer in Ann Arbor on Sunday. Because like, we think that'd be. That'd be great. And I'm living in Berkeley. Like, that feels like a waste of my time and sort of not disrespectful, but like, wow, like, you don't really care where I am. Right? Like, you don't. This is about you. This isn't about me. And that seems to be where I care the most about feeling at least considered. I don't know if it's like known, but it's like considered.

[Howard Heavener]

So let's do this little thought experiment for a second. Okay, so first, what was your degree or major area at Mississippi?

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

I did. I double majored in political science and sociology, looking at education policy and social change.

[Howard Heavener]

Okay, so the most of your solicitations. So just a different kind of form of offer or invitation. Right. Most of your invitations, your offers right now that you get are probably in the space of LNS or LSA I think they call it there, right?

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Howard Heavener]

Okay. So they are assuming that you are the person who chose those majors. And so every day, so not different from what you're saying about getting invitation to physically be there, but every Time. They're reaching out to you. They're reaching out to you under the construct that they assume these things are still irrelevant to your life. Now, if you go through, and this is the thought experiment part, if you go through and you list the five things that are super important to you when you were 18 years old and you list the five things that are super important to you today, and then you start to do the crosshatch, it's very rarely is there are there any connections. But we as institutions act like you're that first person still. And I treat you like you're 18 and you have the same values and importance. Right. And so to that point, right. Like it, we're doing the same thing as inviting you to the volunteer experience at Michigan. You just become numb to it because we do it so frequently. Yes, you are giving them, I guarantee the things you read. You click on a link, that data lives somewhere in the Michigan system where they could be able to send back to you something that is more specific to you, what you actually care about. And let me also just say this and acknowledge this because this is always sets people off. No one's got this figured out yet. Like, this isn't easy. It took us 50 plus years to build a broken system. So it's going to take us a while to unbreak the system. Right? But we have to start with this kind of concept that it has value for people to feel known. We want to have a relationship. Right? Like if you go to a coffee shop and they ignore you, you don't go back to the coffee shop. But if you go to the coffee shop and every time you go in they go, mallory, here's your latte with oat milk and whatever. Like there is a connectivity there, right? And so but we in higher ed have just assumed that you're going to just give us a grace because we're just higher ed, we can't figure it out. I think that's what the data is telling me is that that's not acceptable anymore. And I also think I also get a high verse about this because I morally, it's not acceptable anymore. The tools exist for us to do better and we should do better.

[Mallory Erickson]

I have to be honest, more than anything right now, people are asking me, just tell me what to do. I know that so many people are sitting down to work on fundraising and thinking, okay, where do I even start? You're juggling campaigns, emails, donor meetings, events and about a hundred other things. And sometimes it can feel like you're trying to navigate it all in the dark. That's exactly why I love the Donor Perfect Community Conference and why it was created. This free virtual event is designed to help fundraisers clear their vision, illuminate what's possible, and get glowing results. On June 2nd and 3rd, you'll hear real stories from nonprofit leaders, learn practical strategies you can actually use, and connect with a community of people who understand the challenges of nonprofit work. Join me and some other amazing speakers, including Joan Gary Clay Buck and Jules Julia patrick for the 2026 Donor Perfect Community Conference. Register for free today at donorperfect.com donorperfect-conference I can't wait to see you there.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

And I can imagine like for some people there's even like some tenderness to some of that. Like I think about. For me. No. Yes. I'm not in political science, but a lot of my education at Michigan led me sort of to where I am today in certain ways. Right. And so in a. Like that I look back on very fondly. Like the Ginsburg School there that was all about applied learning. Like so much of what I loved about that is like my practivated. You know, like there's so much. But I know so many people actually who have switched careers completely away with in from what they studied in undergrad or graduate school and actually have a lot of like tenderness around those experiences. Experiences that it could be detrimental to the relationship.

[Howard Heavener]

And I'll say this, it doesn't mean you're not going to make a gift to the Ginsburg school.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Howard Heavener]

But it means that you might be motivated to make a much larger gift if they spoke to something entrepreneurship or technology or any. Right. Like if they spoke to you in a way that connected to who you are today or pets. I don't know. I don't know what your thing is. Right. But like whatever it is. Right. Like if they spoke to you about a thing that actually touched you, your soul.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yes.

[Howard Heavener]

Or at your core you are likely to write a bigger check.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yes. Yeah.

[Howard Heavener]

And so it's like there's like two layers of it. There is the like, how do we get from people not giving to giving and then how do we get from people giving nice gifts to giving more gifts. Right. Bigger gifts now. And we do that. When you have a gift officer that starts to happen. Right. That's the work of the gift officer is to uncover the passion. Right. I mean I think there's a training program where it talks about the passion question as like a like science back. Da da da. Like I've been trained on that stuff. And so like, we have that investment there, but how do we kind of shift that knowing part into the masses and into a greater number of people to be able to reflect? And I think that's where the tools that are coming that are here in parts. Right. I think that's really important work for us to do to make sure we're. But also to make sure we're solving for not the symptoms of a broken problem, a broken challenge, a broken issue. Right. A broken system. We don't want to solve for the symptoms. We don't actually solve the actual, the actual issue. Right. We want to solve the actual problem instead of the symptoms and we do a lot of symptom solution. And one of my fears is we're going to apply technology, we're going to apply technology to the symptoms and we're just going to exacerbate the problems that we have structurally. So when donor counts started going down, what we all did is increase volume. So all we did is reinforce that we weren't listening. And I'm worried about, with some of our tools that we're going to do is we're going to increase volume and not increase listening again. And it's only going to make us more of that buzz sound in people's ears and they're just going to dismiss more and more of our messages. So that's kind of a little bit of the, like the arc for me.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

So, yeah, that's so interesting. And you know, I think I could not agree more with you. I mean, I think some of my biggest risks or my biggest fears around AI is the ability to just do more of the bad stuff faster. You know, you can just like turn a knob. And I think there's so much like. It's interesting what you were saying around the listening piece, because I would argue that actually even in conversation we're missing the mark there. Right. We're going in. We're still in that transactional mindset that permeates every single office and we're so desperate to close the gift that we still stay connected to to. You were in lsna and so why would I ask you an open ended question with a lot of uncertainty around what you care about today? Because I know that at least in part you care about this thing and I could move that faster or easier or, you know, in a less sort of scary way. So what you're saying is so important. And then I think there's a lot of opportunity as we start to, especially as technology is emerging in these places, to like look at uncommon signals or like outlier information that could drive curiosity.

[Howard Heavener]

Every response or non response is a signal to us about what, where the relationship stands.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Howard Heavener]

And we have not trained our systems to read those signals. Yeah, every click or even not click is a communication to us. And we have also grown numb to oh, only this percentage of our emails are opened or click through or et cetera. Right. Like the percentages are tiny and that's the nature of the marketplace. But what if we cared more? What if we tracked right what they didn't respond to but right now we just retract the responses. And I do this. It's one of the things I always try to say. It's like I feel like I have the right to be critical of these systems because I help build these systems. I have done this work at the largest institutions in the country and I have done a lot of this. I still do a lot of this because I don't have the systems built yet. But how do we move ourselves incrementally towards that path of being able to do this better? Some of it's just by a simple change in the way we approach things like giving days. How do we create more agency and more choice in giving processes for people to find the thing that they are passionate about? We don't have the ability to track that data yet and organize. I think we have the data, we don't have the ability to organize it yet in a way that then we can use it. But like, you know, how do we promote more giving options on things like giving days or online giving, et cetera, so people can find their way to the thing they actually care about. So you can give to the one eyed Dog fund, whatever it is. I have a one eyed dog and he is adorable. And so yeah, I mean that to me it's like we have to create greater choice, which is the antithesis of all the direct marketing rules in the land. Direct marketing says forced choice messaging is what you have to do because people get overwhelmed by choice and then they have choice fatigue and then they stop responding. I think we're hurting ourselves.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Well, and isn't there an option where it's not choice in the moment? Like it's not like you're giving people 43 things to click on, but you're giving people one email about one thing with one invitation and then you're giving them another email with a different thing with a different invitation and you're comparing those two like they didn't look care about this thing. They did care about this thing. Is that a pattern over time? Like that's what you're. Yeah, yeah.

[Howard Heavener]

How do we read any user. I love the word signal because we take so many things we view so much as toggle. Right? Yes. No. Did they respond or do they not respond with a gift and we don't track. Did they respond with frustration? Did they track like we have a spreadsheet someplace, but we're not tracking those interactions that are both positive and negative. We're not tracking or kind of accumulating that data to tell us whether this person is engaging a higher level or not engaging a higher level. Right. We are only tracking, really. Tracking. Do they give or not give? And so it's really, to me, it's just that, that kind of ongoing question of like, how do we prepare ourselves to be better listeners as institutional listening. Listening is infrastructure. And that is one of my big things. Is, is. Is how do we do that?

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yeah. And how do we maybe use technology in the right ways to not just like build on bad systems and do bad stuff faster? But now technology is evolving to the point where it, where it can help us listen. And actually, you know, people talk a lot about bias and AI, and I'm not saying that's not a thing, but I use AI in a lot. That actually, I think reduces my internal bias. Like it challenges it to, you know, gives me signals of things that actually make me get curious and be like, wow, my assumption was this and this thing is saying something different. I wonder why. And, and I think there's so much opportunity there. And I appreciate sort of the call out around these pieces and I also appreciate the way you're framing up like, this is hard. And it took us this amount of time to build things the wrong way. So it's going to take time to fix this. And I do think change to these things happens from the inside, you know, like, and I think like, your leadership here is so important in having. Because we can only fix a problem that we admit is a problem. And so, you know, we sort of have to start there. But I think, you know, understanding that the intentions of the folks sitting in these seats is obviously to build relationships. And so it hurts, I think. And I remember feeling this way to, to be like, okay, my goal is to build relationships, and yet my actions are very transactional. And I think the reality is that I will always say to an organization, I'm like, don't tell me what you care about, show me what you track. Right. Because I don't care if you tell me that you care about building great relationships. If all you track are lagging indicators, like if you only track the money, then no matter what you say on the front end, everybody on your team is driving towards the thing you're measuring like that it.

[Howard Heavener]

Yeah, I so agree. And I don't think we have, I think this is where the tools have got, the tools inside our structures have got to catch up where the strategy's going because I don't think we have the right tools yet to really measure some of this because we have to build, we have to actually bake in sentiment analysis to our reporting structure because that's where those, some of those signals are going to come from is through the sentiment analysis. Like, you know, like that's actually, I think that's where the richness is going to come from versus like did they say yes or no? And I think let's get more comfortable just asking people for their opinions, at least in higher ed. I think we're super fearful of like asking people's opinions. When you get it, then you got it right. And so I think that's another reason why I, you know, this work I feel like is important work because it's just to encourage us to be asking more as a form of engagement. Non donors who apply to a survey are just waiting to become engaged and give.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yes. Yes.

[Howard Heavener]

And the act of filling out a survey is an engagement activity that should lead to other behavior. So it was really important to me we iteration of the survey that all the questions have an action that you can take because there's nothing worse than for someone to give you their opinion and then to feel like they've not been heard.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Yeah. Yes. Yes. Oh my gosh. Okay. I could talk to you forever about this but I feel like I need to digest more and then have a round two or something. But tell folks where they can go.

[Howard Heavener]

I'm always game. I'm always game.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Wonderful. To get the report to follow you, to look to the bite sized pieces on LinkedIn telling her to go.

[Howard Heavener]

So first of all, LinkedIn is the easiest, right? It's just HW Heavener on LinkedIn and I'm trying to feed that through there. Plus we also do have a LinkedIn page for the National Alumni survey, so that's there as well. I would love to be able to attach a link to this where the folks can click to get the report and to sign up for next year's cohort of schools. We're trying to get to 45 to 50 schools next year with the goal of having 110 to 120,000 surveys completed as soon as I figure out how to fund all that. But we're going to work it out. But that would be a really great thing too is just to be able to participate, to learn more about how your institution could be part of the National Alumni Survey. My aspiration is this becomes the same thing like Giving USA is where people are looking forward each year to have that information, to have a clearer picture of what's happening that goes up the numbers. But the easiest thing to do is to follow me on LinkedIn and literally everything is there because I have been a little prolific lately and I probably am too loud.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

Not at all.

[Howard Heavener]

AI is really helpful. So it's great.

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

So important and I think more than anything what we need on LinkedIn are practitioners sharing more and posting more. And so I'm so grateful for the work that you're doing. And yeah, thank you so much for sharing with all of us today.

[Howard Heavener]

Yeah, thank you for having me. It was super fun.

[Mallory Erickson]

I hope today's episode episode inspired or challenged you to think differently. For additional takeaways, tips, show notes and more about our amazing guest and sponsors, head on over to Malloryerickson.com podcast and

[Podcast Host / Interviewer]

if you didn't know, hosting this podcast

[Mallory Erickson]

isn't the only thing I do every day. I coach, guide and help fundraisers and leaders just like you inside of my program, the Power Partners Formula Collective. Inside the program, I share my methods, tools and experience. Experiences that have helped me fundraise millions of dollars and feel good about myself in the process. To learn more about how I can help you, visit MalloryErickson.com PowerPartners Last but not least, if you enjoyed this episode, I'd love to encourage you to share it with a friend you know would benefit or leave a review. I'm so grateful for all of you and the good hard work you're doing to make our world a better place. I can't wait to see you in the next next episode.

[Practivated Advertiser]

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