← What the Fundraising
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- [00:00]
AP Poarch
We want someone maybe to mirror us or be similar to us. Because frankly, as we climb and as we kind of elevate in our careers, it's lonely at the top, right? We're making a lot of decisions in isolation. It's really up to us. Maybe we want to feel comforted, we want to feel validated, to kind of branch into the therapy, speak of it all. Like, what is the underlying kind of core belief here? Like, what are we really perpetuating here? You have to take a very harsh look at yourself.
- [00:35]
Mallory Erickson
Hey, my name is Mallory and I'm obsessed with helping leaders in the nonprofit space raise money and run their organizations differently. What the Fundraising is a space for real and raw conversations to both challenge and inspire you. Not too long ago I was in your shoes, uncomfortable with fundraising and unsure of my place in this sector. It wasn't until I started to listen to other experts outside of the fundraising space that I was able to shift my mindset and ultimately shift the way I show up as a leader. This podcast is my way of blending professional and personal development so we as a collective inside the nonprofit sector can feel good about the work we are doing. Join me every week as I interview some of the brightest minds in the personal and professional development space to help you fundamentally change the way you lead and fundraise. I hope you enjoy this episode. So let's dive in.
- [01:29]
Podcast Host
Welcome everyone. I am so excited to be here today with AP Poarch. AP welcome to what the Fundraising.
- [01:37]
AP Poarch
Thank you so much Mallory for welcoming me and having me today.
- [01:40]
Podcast Host
I'm really excited for this conversation. Why don't you start by just telling everybody a little bit about you, about your work and then we'll dive in.
- [01:48]
AP Poarch
Sure. So high level. About Me I am a higher ed university wide Director of Alumni Engagement at a small Jesuit university, Loyola University New Orleans. I have been working in higher education for the last decade. I'm very devoted to these types of spaces as I'm obsessed with supporting what's called the life of the mind. But at large, I've been engaged in philanthropic work for nearly 15 years now, working in some national and global nonprofits as well.
- [02:28]
Podcast Host
Amazing. And we connected. So we connected on LinkedIn because I had written about kind of the difference between like how we hire for skills but not necessarily fit in an organization. And one of the things I think in fundraising or alumni relations that is so challenging about kind of skill only skill based hiring is that we a lot of it is on like quote unquote transferable skills that then don't always transfer because of all these other parts of being human and culture and community that either support a skill transfer or don't. And it looks like, you know, you've been thinking about this and writing about this in a lot of different ways. So talk to me a little bit about from your perspective, kind of what came up for you there.
- [03:22]
AP Poarch
Sure. Well, I think since I have a systems view of a lot of things, I can see the transferable skills in a lot of different scenarios. For example, I call myself an insatiably curious person. And that insatiable curiosity has led me to working in not just annual giving, but major gifts, donor engagement, and now hyper focusing on alumni engagement. And so I'm able to see a lot between maybe domains that people don't realize are connected also. What was the rest of your question? I can't quite remember.
- [03:58]
Podcast Host
Oh, just how you like given that systems level view, what is the relationship that you think about in terms of like skills and competency and kind of what happens maybe if we over index on, you know, transferable skills without thinking about more of that like ecosystem impact?
- [04:19]
AP Poarch
Sure. Thank you for refreshing my memory. The day that you posted about that. I posted about something similar because an interview candidate asked me a question a year ago this summer that has really stuck with me and that was when I was hiring. It's are you hiring for fit and competency proficiency, I think was the word that was used, or are you hiring for sameness? And I thought that was a really impactful question that I was not offended by at all because I am a very precise person, a very reflective person. And so as you're saying, like, these are the things that we need to think about. We can't hire for carbon copies of the last person in the role. And that is happening by and large across the hierarchy, whether it's a new executive director in a nonprofit or a more junior staff person in higher ed. We continue to talk about how maybe even boards or hiring committees are reacting to the characteristics of the last person in the role. And that doesn't always serve us. So I really want to encourage us to push outside of those bounds and think about competency, think about style, think about alignment, and think about maybe our quest for connection that we are misplacing in trying to hire for what we just had in the role.
- [05:58]
Podcast Host
Yeah, okay.
- [05:59]
Mallory Erickson
Wow.
- [06:00]
Podcast Host
There's so much here. And I think, you know what I appreciate so much about? There are so many things I appreciate about what you're saying, but it's interesting to me that we in an environment that is so dynamic, that is changing so much, where these roles are not the same as they were two years ago, or the conversations we're having with folks are not the same, that we haven't realized that the sort of rinse and repeat around that sameness is, like, we aren't taking into account, like, in addition to the fact that why would we want.
- [06:32]
AP Poarch
Exactly.
- [06:32]
Podcast Host
You know, that sort of, like, sameness and homogeneous, especially when we're trying to grow and improve and do things differently. Like, there's so many issues with that sort of homogenous search, but also the environment that we are hiring in is so different. And so who was a good fit five years ago doesn't actually necessarily mean that they would even be a good fit today in that same way.
- [07:00]
AP Poarch
Right? That's totally correct. I feel like in the last couple of years, like, you're saying things have progressed at sort of a breakneck pace that you really have to challenge yourself to keep track of. And that's another part of this. Right. Being able to see your team clearly, see your needs clearly is part of a greater, I think, leadership competency. And in this space, a lot of people have said things when I was more junior in my career that I never let go of. Oh, nobody taught me how to be a manager. Nobody taught me how to lead. As if it's a thing that you have to leave up to teach someone else to teach you. As if it's a thing that you can't be resourceful about. The same way that we are continuously hungry and resourceful about our fundraising acumen, it is another muscle that we have to work to refine and strengthen.
- [07:56]
Mallory Erickson
Yes.
- [07:57]
Podcast Host
Okay. So talk to me more about that.
- [07:59]
AP Poarch
Sure, sure. So it could be anything from, I think, some of the systems and some of the institutions that we work for. How can they better incentivize that sort of professional development in their leadership? That's a thing. But even if there is no budget and it's a smaller or scrappier sort of organization, what can you kind of look around for? I will say I'm a person who. This is not a plug for them. They are not at all sponsoring me, but I am a subscriber of Harvard Business Review, and they always talk about leadership and coaching and nuance and culture and all these things that it's really just helpful to learn the vocabulary of. Yeah.
- [08:46]
Podcast Host
I also recognize just how hard it is to hire and how overwhelmed people are with hiring and onboarding. And there was this, like, little, like, empathy bubble that came up in me as you were talking, that's like, I wonder if some of the sameness that people hire for is because maybe they feel more confident onboarding somebody who. Where they would onboard them perhaps the same way as they onboarded the last person or know something we hear like at practivated a lot is just how overwhelming it is for managers. Like, you know, you're bringing in somebody who has, you know, maybe come from higher ed, but then another person who came from healthcare and another person who came from a small nonprofit. And they need different things and they need to be. They're coming with different gaps, they're coming with different types of transferable skills. And for the manager who is often managing their own portfolio also or has plenty of other things other than onboarding, just that sort of like overwhelm and well, I don't even know how to onboard like or this isn't a skill of mine. Right. I was good at doing the thing and now I'm tasked with bringing people on to do the thing. And so I wonder if there's a like oversimplification of the onboarding that just comes from like a. I don't know what else to do. What do you think about that?
- [10:07]
AP Poarch
That definitely resonates with some things that I've read and heard. Especially when you think about fundraising typically as a practice and as an industry, we're thinking about high performing people, right? And sometimes people are promoted and elevated. Who, they get the gifts and they get the dollars in the door. And so that is really, I think, impressive to some people. It shows maybe what they think is a greater capability in a leadership or something like that. They want to create more fundraisers like this person. But what type of character does this person have? What type of way does this person impact the culture? Because fundraising can also be. You can be sort of a man on your own island, I would say, because you're going out and you're meeting with constituents, you're meeting with donors, you're a road warrior sometimes. I know that I was when I was a major gifts officer for sure. And so you're missing a lot of the nuance that's happening in the office, the relationships that are being cultivated in the office. So it's basically just to take a step back and say, like, how can I become more tapped into what's going on in my organizational culture? Also, how can higher ups maybe incentivize that it is important to have multiple types of acumen and be strong in multiple areas? Because dollars aren't the only Thing that matter, Culture matters, especially when we want to retain people, when we want to have psychological safety, all these things matter.
- [11:47]
Mallory Erickson
Yeah.
- [11:47]
Podcast Host
Okay, so talk to me a little bit about how you would recommend somebody take culture. Like how do you hire for that? How do you look for that? How do you figure out fit there?
- [12:01]
AP Poarch
That is a great question. I think it requires a lot of honesty, to be completely frank. It is to say, okay, you had a great relationship in the last person who was in this role, but why was it great? Were they just a nice person? Were they easy to be around? Were they easygoing? What really made it great? Did you share some outside interests in common? Are you both family people? Are you both Star wars fans? It could be anything. But I think we need to really take an honest look and see, like why these relationships worked and realize in what areas is it a difference that is not a deficiency. For example. I'll give you a very specific example. It took me years being in the fundraising and philanthropy space to meet someone who was allowed to be an introverted fundraiser. And I say allowed to be because think of all the times that we are prompted or outright herded into environments to go make cold relationships with people. Yeah. And so that is a missed opportunity. There are so many people and I still consider myself to be an occasionally outgoing introvert if I'm being very, very honest with myself. And so that doesn't mean that I'm not good building and cultivating relationships. I feel more comfortable when they're one on one. I feel best when I'm able to be thoughtful, when I'm able to really listen to what is said, when I'm not distracted, all these things. So in what ways can we look around and see this person can still do the work? Yes. They'll do it differently. Is that an issue also? Why could it be an issue? Because I think, and this is what I mentioned in the post, sometimes we're looking for, we are on a quest for connection. We want someone maybe to mirror us or be similar to us. Because frankly, as we climb and as we kind of elevate in our careers, it's lonely at the top. Right. We're making a lot of decisions in isolation. It's really up to us. Maybe we want to feel comforted, we want to feel validated, to kind of branch into the therapy. Speak of it all. Like, what is the underlying kind of core belief here? Like, what are we really perpetuating here? You have to take a very harsh look at yourself.
- [14:41]
Podcast Host
Yeah. I mean, I think underneath everything that you're talking about, right? It's like, you also, like, you have to be honest about your culture if you're going to hire. And, like, you know, it's one to. Or it can lead to an even more disconnected experience if you're like, okay, yeah, we. Or that piece about psychological safety, right? Like, yeah, we want diversity of opinions, but then we haven't actually looked, taken a hard look, or been honest about what the culture is like here with dissenting opinions or people who want to do things a different way. And it really has to start there to actually then make sure that what you're hiring for can even come to be. Because otherwise you're like, oh, well, we hired this person to blah, blah, blah. But, like, the environment doesn't actually culture or nurture that part of them or let that part of them even come out. And I think I really resonate with what you're saying around. And actually, it's a really big part of why I ended up building Practivated too. Like, I'm neurodivergent. And I felt like for years as a fundraiser, I was giving templates and scripts and ways of being a fundraiser, that I was like, my brain doesn't work that way. Like, I don't connect that way. That just isn't. And so I actually was so disembodied as a fundraiser and so frustrated and really feeling like this isn't for me, because I thought that there was just one way to do it. And I think, like, that's what's so, you know, dangerous. I always say, like, with Practivated, that the idea is that the best fundraiser you can be is the best fundraiser in you. Like, the purpose is not to create a bunch of same fundraisers. It's like, personalization at scale for fundraisers means that it can bring out the best in you around what drives connected relationships, which looks like different for everyone. But the underlying, like, experience or skills can be unified. But the way that you exhibit those skills or the way that you connect, like, it is possible now to actually give everybody that kind of type of personalization support and not just say, trust is only built this one one way. Actually, trust is built a lot of ways. And so I really, really appreciate what you're saying because I think for a lot of us, it's made us feel like, oh, I must not be a good fundraiser, because good fundraisers aren't like this. Or I hear, like, it breaks my heart. I hear from fundraisers all the time, like, I'm not charismatic enough to be a good fundraiser or I'm not social enough, or I'm not cool enough or I'm not, whatever. And it just like, it breaks my heart because it's. There's so many ways, like to be a good fundraiser and it's already inside of them.
- [17:28]
AP Poarch
There truly is so many ways to be a great fundraiser. That definitely resonates with me, especially because sometimes you deal with people from certain walks of life that maybe aren't the same as yours. You're courting high net worth individuals, trying to build relationships with them. Maybe sometimes you have gone to the same schools as them, maybe you haven't, maybe you're familiar with their neighborhood, maybe you are well traveled, maybe you aren't. But I can tell you what, personally, I'm a big nerd. And so I have told people, you know, being incredibly well read, being super interested in arts and culture, traveling, yes. When I had the ability as an adult, like, I try not to be a country counter, but travel is important to me. Seeing the world, but exposing yourself to a number of different types of domain and knowledge and interest. Podcasts, so many things. It's how you can build connection with people. You can find something in common without having to be a carbon copy.
- [18:36]
Mallory Erickson
Yes.
- [18:36]
Podcast Host
Yes. So talk to me a little bit. Before we clicked Record, you were telling me about thinking about kind of like being an architect of trust and talk to me about. I feel like we're teetering right there. Like, tell me a little bit about what that means to you and sort of the importance of that kind of framing around how we think about this work.
- [18:56]
AP Poarch
Thank you for that segue. Yes. I have been thinking deeply reading a lot about trust and where we are with it as a community, as a sector. Higher education is really having a huge moment as we face a demographic cliff where we will see maybe a lot of enrollment decline. And I think there's a heightened sense of skepticism when you think of a student debt burden or other types of access issues and challenges. And so it's really thinking about and reviewing research recently done from college and university presidents about their take on where we stand with trust today, how they're working to build and cultivate trust, what's really moving the needle, Some of them, when reading an article in the Chronicle of Higher Education, we're talking about it from more of a PR and more of a messaging standpoint. And I understand that temptation. But as someone who's charged with external relations, as someone who's charged with community development and fostering a sense of belonging. Right. I have to think about how we can engage our alumni to be those peer to peer intermediaries to help us build trust in our communities. Trust is not something you can say to a person. You can't talk at somebody and generate a sense of trust. You have to model it, you have to spread it. You have to have ambassadors for it. And it has to kind of take on a life of its own. But there are certain levers that we need to move in order for that to happen.
- [20:53]
Podcast Host
Okay, so, yeah, talk to me about some of those levers. And, you know, I know higher ed has a lot of similarities. And I can imagine as you're thinking about this, like, there's a really big difference between, like, a smaller shop and some of these large institutions with lots of different departments. Like, I'm so fascinated with the alumni relations world and the intersection between it and development because it's so different at different types of schools where it's like, interconnected or more siloed or any of that. So, yeah, talk to me a little bit about how you think about that.
- [21:31]
AP Poarch
Sure, I'm happy to talk about that. Especially because I came from those larger institutions, those fundraising juggernauts, if you will. Starting out at Johns Hopkins, G.W. tulane, and now pivoting to a small Jesuit university has been very eye opening, to say the least, because you're dealing with multiple cultures here, even within a campus, even within a small culture. And this is another thing that I've written about recently. There might be a difference in, or there is outright a difference in how people are visualizing where you are. There are people who are engaged with the magic of an institution and people who are engaged with supporting the machine of an institution. And so on the magical side, it's so much of that typical life of the mind stuff, right? The learning is not just happening in the classroom. It's happening on the lawn. It's happening by chance. It's happening in a coffee shop. It's happening in office hours. It's happening at a speaker series. It's happening so many places. And then there are the administrators and the staff, people who are engaged with the machine in sort of a soft, corporate or outright, sometimes corporate culture, managerial culture. And you have to try to meet in the middle to get things done. And it can be very, very challenging. But I've seen it done well in institutions that understand those differences in culture that are living on the campus. And so I've heard evidence of this being done well when I'm on campuses and they're saying Everybody's in development. Yes, you may be a faculty person, you may be a research person, but everybody is familiar with and doing and championing the work of fundraising and development. And it's just kind of an understanding that everybody, no matter the casual free flowing way that maybe some professors and other people are used to kind of operating, they know, okay, I am in a role that's a named professorship. There's an expectation of me at the end of every year to create a report about all of the things I was able to achieve with a philanthropic support that empowered and enabled the named professorship. This is my role. Yes, I might need support and I'll say, hey, could you give me a template? Could you give me this? But it is my responsibility to create this report by X date so it can be sent to a donor and we can continue to build this relationship. Like that has to be clear, it has to be defined, it has to be mandated from leadership and there has to be buy in in order for that to happen.
- [24:38]
Mallory Erickson
Yes.
- [24:38]
Podcast Host
What do you think are the biggest things that get in the way of that?
- [24:44]
AP Poarch
I think the biggest things get in the way of that. I was having a casual conversation with a friend the other day. It's. We all become a little frustrated when opinions are maybe mistaken for experience, the same validity as experience. I know that. I think I've been able to achieve success in the philanthropy space working with professors, working with deans, working with university presidents, because I come into the relationship with mutual respect. I understand we may not come from the same discipline, but I appreciate the sphere and the zone of excellence and the zone of genius that they bring to the table. And we are not just people in suits. We are not just suits doing a job right. We are actually pretty mission driven people who have our own motivations for the work. Whether we're in academic medicine and we have a family member who had a certain type of cancer, or we're in higher ed and we have a relative who received a full scholarship and it changed education for generations in our family. We are connected to mission as well. So people coming to the table and understanding, okay, you're different. Again, going back to the culture thing as we were talking about earlier with hiring and teams, you're different, but let me find out what you can teach me. I don't know everything. Let me see if I got something wrong. You have to remain teachable, you have to remain coachable. Fundraising is both an art and a science. And so there are so many opportunities for us to share the technical things, the technical aspect of relationship building, especially when I hear stories through the grapevine of people at the highest levels going into donor prospect meetings, talking very clearly about the fact that, oh, I read a brief on you before I came to this meeting, that you're. We're not supposed to say that. We're not supposed to say that. I fear that is a rookie mistake. So seeing all of these, frankly, tragic. And I love that I'm able to speak openly this way on your show because I've heard other people be candid in this way, seeing these tragic missteps, or knowing that I've worked closely with people at the highest levels who nobody told them what a contact report is after the meeting, and they are like, oh, I know I'm supposed to do this for you, but what is it really supposed to say? And I'm thinking, wow, I'm not even the most senior administrator in this room, but I am doing pivotal glue work, if you will, to get this person over the hump. So these are so many things. These speak to so many missed opportunities to build greater knowledge about the way that our world works and meet in the middle and cultivate a deeper relationship that really fuels this work.
- [28:20]
Podcast Host
Yeah, I so appreciate that. And what's interesting, like. And, you know, I hope you can tell me if you don't want to answer this question, but I feel like we have been talking. One of the things that always strikes me when I have a conversation like this is, gosh, I think about how many people are sitting in rooms right now saying, how do we deal with turnover? Like, it's sinking us. It's happening too much. Like, I. Why am I hiring? I have 16 open positions right now. And, like, maybe we hear about all this even more than everybody else, because that's why they come to us to talk about solutions. But I read a recent study that 95% of leaders are worried about fundraisers burning out. And so I'm like, okay, on the one hand, we are experiencing this very real pain of, you know, folks saying, hey, like, this doesn't work for me. This box you're trying to put me in, or this lack of support or that. And yet we aren't, like, connecting the DOT between that and the conversation I feel like you and I are having right now. Are you seeing that, too? And, like, why do you think that might be?
- [29:30]
AP Poarch
I'm absolutely seeing that. And I think it. It also continues to stay top of mind. As for us, as we think about all of the numbers and the data that AFP puts out about Fundraising, tenure. It's something that we've dealt with for a long time. Something that I don't know why people are not really digging into. It's like they're missing it. It's looking them right in the face. And part of some of the things that I say from time to time is resist your inner coward. We really have to resist our inner coward. And look at the things, right? Because a couple of things come to mind for me. If you've been with an organization or an institution for a while, 5, 10, 15, 20 years, maybe you haven't been aware of the way that you have begun to enmesh the institution and the organization with your own identity. You really have. And so when people come into the space, you praise them for their experience, you praise them for their multifaceted perspective, right? And then they come in and even if they delicately nudge, even if they methodically nudge and say, oh, well, what about xyz? Some people can be incredibly defensive because they can immediately maybe feel destabilized or it's the way we've always done it. And people say that they know it's the way we've always done it is wrong, quote, unquote. But they also just aren't recognizing the emotional and the visceral moment when that happens. And it's to say to meet that moment with curiosity. I heard someone say that and it stuck in my brain. Meet the moment with curiosity. What are you confused about? What are you defensive about? Do you not know any alternative way? And maybe you are ashamed, Lean into that shame. Do you feel judged? Because I can tell you, as we also ascend to higher and higher levels of leadership, some leaders still think that it is their responsibility to continue to bring all of the great ideas when that's just, frankly, not going to happen. Sometimes your role is to operationalize the idea, not to generate it. So that's one piece of it. And then another, broader piece is just infrastructure. Have you kind of to put on my alumni engagement hat? Have you looked at the volunteer opportunities? Have you looked at your boards? Are they running effectively? What is the process for recruiting new people? Is this essentially something that exists in name only, that doesn't really do any work, isn't really helpful? Are people coming to the table who expect your organization to fill their whole life? Do they have the wrong perception of how they will serve? Have you had anybody in the space who can coach volunteers, who can help them articulate and meet their deliverables? Is the administrative partner? Is the dean, Is the Professor cultural, as we were talking about earlier, is the university president cultural. All of these things that because this space is so traditional, so conservative in some ways, so rigidly hierarchical, that people just don't. They don't get it.
- [33:22]
Podcast Host
Yeah. I hope people, like, rewind and replay those questions because I feel like you just gave everybody, like, a worksheet to, like, dig into each of those questions. I was, like, taking some notes even. I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, yeah, I think. And I love the piece around curiosity because I think in so many of the things that we've been talking about today, that really is the first step.
- [33:44]
AP Poarch
Right.
- [33:44]
Podcast Host
To start to get curious about your cultures. To start to get curious. Like, are we hiring? Trying to hire the same person over and over again to get curious about some of the challenges that you're experiencing in terms of engaging alumni and what it might take to build a habit or a relationship differently. What it might take to not just get stuck in the status quo of, like, this has always been how it is. But to your point, everything around us is changing. So, like, if we expect to just keep doing what we did five years ago, which I think a lot of people would also argue wasn't working that well, then we're just, you know, like, I feel like what I really want people to hear is, like, there are ways to change your outcomes, but it requires you to change your behavior. And, like, you've given people so many starting points to begin that conversation internally, which I just appreciate so much.
- [34:45]
AP Poarch
Thank you for saying that. Yeah. My whole thing online is I try to bring frameworks that I have developed from years of experience and multiple different types of scenarios. Right. I always like to infuse my writing with observations and then questions so that people come to their own realizations and maybe see areas of opportunity and areas that they could potentially improve and change.
- [35:16]
Podcast Host
I love that. Tell folks where they can go to connect with you. Or if people have questions coming off of this. Yeah. But definitely follow. Follow on LinkedIn and let us. Let me know if there's anywhere else you want to send them.
- [35:31]
AP Poarch
Sure. So I have A newsletter website, www.a p p o r c h.net where you can find me. Subscribe if you don't want to worry about losing me in the LinkedIn algorithm. As we know, that tends to happen because they change the algorithm so much. But I try to post a couple times a week on LinkedIn and I send out a monthly newsletter because I know our inboxes are already clogged and I don't like to spam people, so that's where you can find me.
- [36:10]
Podcast Host
Amazing. Amazing. Thank you so much for joining me today and for all the wisdom you shared. I'm so grateful for the work that you do and for, yeah, just how you show up in this space and are pushing the conversation and people forward. So thank you.
- [36:25]
AP Poarch
Thank you so much, Mallory.
- [36:32]
Mallory Erickson
I hope today's episode inspired or challenged
- [36:35]
Podcast Host
you to think differently.
- [36:36]
Mallory Erickson
For additional takeaways, tips, show notes, and more about our amazing guest and sponsors, head on over to Malloryerickson.com podcast and if you didn't know, hosting this podcast isn't the only thing I do every day. I coach, guide and help fundraisers and leaders just like you inside of my program, the Power Partners Formula Collective. Inside the program, I share my methods, tools and experiences that have helped me fundraise millions of dollars and feel good about myself in the process. To learn more about how I can help you, visit MalloryErickson.com PowerPartners Last but not least, if you enjoyed this episode, I'd love to encourage you to share it with a friend you know would benefit or leave a review. I'm so grateful for all of you and the good, hard work you're doing to make our world a better place. I can't wait to see you in the next episode.