Episode 243: Criminal Mind vs. Criminal Mind

Summary

What the Hack? – Episode 243: Criminal Mind vs. Criminal Mind

Date: March 17, 2026
Host: Beau Friedlander
Guest: Jim Clemente (Former FBI profiler, prosecutor, co-host of Real Crime Profile, former technical consultant/writer on Criminal Minds)

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Episode Overview

This episode spotlights the staggering fact that even an expert—ex-FBI profiler and renowned criminal investigator Jim Clemente—can become the victim of a modern cyber scam. It weaves together Clemente’s storied law enforcement past, his surprising links to the Unabomber case, and the frustrating, nearly inescapable vulnerabilities of today’s digital world. Listeners gain unique insight into both the psychology of criminals and the very personal experience of being on the receiving end of cybercrime.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jim Clemente’s Professional Background and the Unabomber Case

• Clemente shares his career progression from curious, science-loving child, to prosecutor, to FBI agent, and ultimately FBI profiler.
• He highlights his involvement as a consultant on the Unabomber investigation, emphasizing the use of forensic linguistic profiling (02:22), the work of Jim Fitzgerald, and the challenges in securing a search warrant for Ted Kaczynski.

“Nobody thought he would be capable of doing more than 17 bombings over 17 years.” – Jim Clemente (02:22)

• Beau provides a personal connection: after Kaczynski’s arrest, he approached him as a publisher and briefly gained access to Kaczynski’s thinking and intentions, affirming Kaczynski’s mindset.

“He wanted to publish a book that explained that he wasn’t crazy and that he meant every last bit of what he did.” – Beau Friedlander (03:10)

• They discuss societal fascination with Kaczynski’s ideology versus condemnation of his methods, and the harm done to innocent victims.
• Jim gives moving examples of survivors' lives derailed by Kaczynski’s violence, stressing that methodology—not just ideology—matters (04:48).

2. Profiling as Psychological Hacking

• Both Beau and Jim reflect on “hacking” as a kind of psychological and investigative art.

“You’re kind of hacking an individual to understand how to get access.” – Beau Friedlander (12:10)

• Beau describes how he tailored communication to appeal to Kaczynski, sensing his needs for precision and directness (10:55).

“This guy probably likes precision. This guy probably doesn’t like any throat clearing whatsoever... He’s keeping score.” – Beau Friedlander (11:00)

• Jim shares insight from the Behavioral Analysis Unit: profiling is a mix of science, direct study with psychologists, and understanding criminal “vibe” (09:40 / 10:44).

3. The Curse and Inescapability of Digital Identity

• Parallels are drawn between Kaczynski’s invisibility (off-grid anonymity) and the contemporary impossibility of true digital privacy (15:05).

“Couldn’t be found. And my point here is that...there’s a lot of people in the world...that wish that were the case.” – Beau Friedlander (16:36)

• Kaczynski evaded detection by living low-tech, a feat virtually impossible today due to interconnected data systems, social media, and digital footprints.

4. Jim Clemente Becomes a Cybercrime Victim

• Pivoting, the episode dives into Clemente’s personal scam story (18:39).

“Somebody figured out how to get to you.” – Beau Friedlander (18:39)

• The Attack: Clemente’s debit card, previously linked to a peer-to-peer payment app, was used to create a new fraudulent account. Thirty to forty rapid transactions led to his account being drained of over $4,300 (23:03 / 30:06).

“Thirty or forty transactions hit my bank at the same time, and none of them were stopped by the bank, which really pissed me off.” – Jim Clemente (24:59)

• The scam leveraged the fact that:

  • Clemente’s data was exposed from multiple breaches (doctors, DMV, utilities, etc.).
  • Transaction alerts were tied to the original account, not the fraudulent one, leaving Jim in the dark (26:41).
  • The peer-to-peer app’s weak verification process and lack of meaningful anti-fraud checks enabled the theft.

• Beau gives a primer on why peer-to-peer ACH transactions are less likely to trigger fraud alerts than retail card purchases (27:47).

• Clemente shares frustration with both the payment platform and his bank’s customer service (31:04):

  • The bank blamed Clemente for risky behavior and closed his account.
  • The payment app deflected responsibility, citing “pass-through” status, leaving Clemente with little recourse (33:18).

• On the challenges of recovery:

  • Law enforcement cannot prioritize smaller-scale fraud.
  • Bank and app policy shields them from effective liability.
  • Victims face intentional “signal disruption” via convoluted customer service, making the process exhausting and often fruitless (39:02).

“You eventually get so frustrated with this process...you just want to give up.” – Jim Clemente (39:02)

5. Lessons in Defense: Signal Disruption and Cyber Hygiene

• The hosts discuss the concept of “signal disruption”—the strategic creation of noise or confusion—to evade detection (Kaczynski) or stonewall complaints (banks).

• Best practices are highlighted:

  • Use debit cards ONLY for ATM withdrawals; lock the card when not in use (41:28 / 45:50).
  • Never connect debit cards to payment apps.
  • Layer protections (alert settings, strict account controls, extra mobile carrier protections).
  • Embrace “friction”—make yourself a hard target.

• Beau emphasizes that while complete prevention is impossible, minimizing losses and exposure is key (44:06).

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Memorable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Surviving Crime and Scams:

“It’s telling that we can talk openly about something like child sex abuse and it’s embarrassing to talk about getting scammed. Both are often beyond anything we can control.”
– Beau Friedlander (44:04)

• On Institutional Barriers:

“Each one of those departments that I had to deal with...refused to take, to stay on the line to talk to the next level. Right. So I had to start from zero with each person...”
– Jim Clemente (39:02)

• On Profile-Based Communication:

“I tried to get his vibe. I just tried to get his vibe. And then when I was like, okay, this guy probably likes precision...”
– Beau Friedlander (11:00)

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Important Segment Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |---------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:18 | Jim describes insight from surviving abuse and becoming an FBI profiler | | 02:22 | Clemente’s involvement in the Unabomber case; Kaczynski profiling | | 04:48 | Victim impact of the Unabomber's actions, the cost of wrongful methodology | | 10:44 | Profiling as psychological hacking | | 15:05 | Digital footprints versus Kaczynski’s off-the-grid invisibility | | 18:39 | Cybercrime pivot: Jim gets scammed | | 23:03 | Anatomy of the scam and failures of fraud detection | | 26:41 | How the fraud dodged transaction alerts | | 29:29 | The futility of perfect protection against sophisticated cyber attacks | | 31:04 | Bank blames victim and closes account | | 33:18 | Tech platforms deflect liability ("just a wire between the two cups") | | 39:02 | Signal disruption in customer service loops | | 41:28 | Best practice rundown: locking debit cards, using friction as defense | | 44:04 | Parallels between trauma and the randomness of cyber victimization | | 45:50 | Tinfoil Swan Takeaway: Only use debit card for ATM, lock when not in use |

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Actionable Takeaways

• Never use debit cards for payments or online shopping—lock them unless at an ATM.
• Favor credit cards for greater fraud protection.
• Accept that total online invisibility is impossible; focus on minimizing your risk profile.
• Demand more from service providers—don’t accept blame-shifting or institutional inertia.
• Expect, recognize, and resist the “signal disruption” tactics used by both criminals and companies.

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Tone and Style

The episode blends serious professional reflection, candid personal storytelling, and dry humor (especially in Beau’s deadpan comments about banks and app providers). Clemente’s vulnerability, despite his expertise, drives home the message: anyone can be a victim. The advice is pragmatic, not alarmist, and usually colored with a bit of wry resignation about modern online life.

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Whether you’re a privacy veteran or just learning, this episode offers sobering lessons—and a reminder that in today’s world, even the best “criminal mind” can be outfoxed in the blink of an ACH transfer.

Transcript

[Beau Friedlander]

This episode contains brief mentions of childhood sex abuse. If you don't want to hear those moments, you might want to skip this episode. A former FBI profiler got scammed. He co hosts a popular true crime podcast. He's a former prosecutor. He's not an easy target.

[Jim Clemente]

They. They understood that I had maybe an additional insight into these offenders and into victimology and how to investigate these cases.

[Beau Friedlander]

His account was drained into a peer to peer finance app. It was kind of like a data related drive by and the kind that no one can dodge. Nobody, you can't. You can only react. That's it. And his bank's response? Actually, speaking of reactions, they didn't have the right reaction. You know, they basically said it wasn't their problem.

[Jim Clemente]

How am I supposed to protect myself from that?

[Beau Friedlander]

You're not. So what does this have to do with Ted Kaczynski, also known as the Unabomber? Well, therein lies a tale. I'm Beau Friedlander, and this is what the hack, the podcast that asks, in a world where your data is everywhere, how do you stay safe online? Jim Clemente is a former New York prosecutor, FBI undercover agent, and profile in the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit. He was a technical advisor and then later a writer and a producer for the hit show Criminal Minds. He created and produced the television show Manhunt Unabomber. These days he has a couple of projects going, including a podcast called Real Crime Profile, which he co hosts with Laura Richards of Scotland Yard and fellow Criminal Minds alum Lisa Zambetti. Jim, I feel like I'm embarrassing you. Do you do a ton of stuff now? I sort of hate to say it given the circumstances, but it is actually really great to finally have you on. What the heck?

[Jim Clemente]

It's great to see you, Beau.

[Beau Friedlander]

So your work as a profiler goes way back and we have a little tiny bit of overlap because you did a television series called Manhunt Unabomber. It was an eight episode series that was on discovery. What was your role in the Unabomber case?

[Jim Clemente]

I was one of the profilers who consulted on the investigation. Jim Fitz Fitzgerald took the lead in it, and he developed forensic linguistic profiling, where he utilized it in the case to actually put together an affidavit that. That got us into Ted Kaczynski's cabin. Before that, the judge did not believe there was enough probable cause to give us a search warrant for Ted Kaczynski because here he is just a, you know, basically a homeless guy in the middle of the woods and. And nobody thought he would be capable of doing 17 bombings over more than 17 bombings over 17 years.

[Beau Friedlander]

The indictment came after Theodore Kaczynski had

[Jim Clemente]

spent two months in a Montana jail,

[Beau Friedlander]

charged only with possessing bomb components. The Sacramento grand jury slapped Kaczynski with 10 charges of transporting, mailing, and using explosives with intent to kill or injure. Now, our overlap is that after his arrest, I had a publishing house and I had contacted him along with a flotilla of other people trying to get the story, and I was his publisher. He wanted to publish a book that explained that he wasn't crazy and that he. He meant every last bit of what he did. Now, I think you can be crazy and mean every last bit of what you do. Both can be true, right?

[Jim Clemente]

Absolutely. But apparently he saw a kindred spirit in you because so many people he turned down, including Jim Fitzgerald, he had. He told Fitz that he would talk to him. Fitz drove all the way out there, and then when he got to the prison, he was told, oh, Mr. Kaczynski apologizes, but he's busy today. And so he, he never got the inter.

[Beau Friedlander]

So I'm, I'm interested in it for a number of reasons, but I sort of backed into this work I do in cyber security and privacy through him.

[Jim Clemente]

Right.

[Beau Friedlander]

There was an affinity when it came to what he was saying about the over socialization of people and technology. And mind you, he said it years before social media actually started killing people.

[Jim Clemente]

I know there's a resurgence of, you know, of that kind of ideology. People are sort of flocking to his ideology, but his methodology is what was incredibly bad. I mean, I got to interview, I think, all of the surviving people who were injured by him, but also the family members who survived, the people who were killed by him. And these, I mean, without exception, these were people who were doing amazing things, good things. Preserving trees, helping on the forefront of genetics, helping parents give better lives, provide better lives for. For their children. There were so many people. A guy who, who was in the Air Force, who wanted to be an astronaut, and two weeks before, he got his letter from NASA saying, we've got. We accepted you into the program. You're going to be an astronaut. He got his fingers blown off and one of his eyes destroyed. And of course, he was no longer eligible for the program. But, but that's the sick thing is how he decided to address those issues as opposed to what should have been done.

[Beau Friedlander]

If you're familiar with all of the casework, which I am, and you are, you begin to see that it really does boil down to. I decided I wanted to kill people.

[Jim Clemente]

Yeah.

[Beau Friedlander]

Now, Now. But that's not the case. You know, I don't know how we went. I know we. That was overdue. We had. We. I've known you for a while and,

[Jim Clemente]

and we haven't talked about it yet.

[Beau Friedlander]

So it was a long time coming. And I'm glad that we did have that conversation. It's not why we're here today. So how did you get into this. This field? Did you start out as a kid wanting to become an FBI agent or get in, become a prosecutor? Like, how did it start you?

[Jim Clemente]

Well, a couple of things. One, when I was a kid, I was very curious. I. I liked science. I asked for a telescope for Christmas, and then next year I asked for a microscope and, and a rector set. I thought I would like biology, but ended up being disgusted by what people look like on the inside. I'm so happy for skin. I'm so grateful for skin. So there was this, you know, desire to find things out and to explain things. And as I grew up, you know, I read the Hardy Boys mysteries and so forth, and, and Sherlock Holmes, and I said, I really want to be a detective now. I went to college. That's when I decided I was going to go to law school. In that process, definitely fell in love with criminal law and became a prosecutor. But while I was a prosecutor, my brother calls me up and says, we should go after the guy at the camp, you know, the director of the camp when we were kids. And I said, why? And he said, because I snuck into his office once and I found three paper bags filled with Polaroid pictures of him molesting boys. And I said, I thought it was the only one. And so I went after him with the FBI and ypd. Sexual Exploitation of Children Task Force wore a wire, locked him up, put him in jail. And after that case, the FBI agent who worked the case handed me an application to the FBI. And I said, you know, I never really thought about being an FBI agent. He said, but you said you really wanted to be a detective, and FBI agents are just federal detectives. And that was a light bulb moment. I was like, wow, that's cool. And that encouraged me to put the application in. A year later, I was in the FBI.

[Beau Friedlander]

So did you go and work for the FBI to work on that kind of case? You know, like, yes. People protect people like you?

[Jim Clemente]

Yeah, absolutely. I. I ended up working on the same squad that had just finished investigating my case. So it was something I hid from everyone in the prosecutor's office. But now I didn't have to hide anymore. I literally was working with the people who, who had just helped me find some justice. And it was, they, they understood that I had maybe an additional insight into these offenders and into victimology and how to investigate these cases. So that's what I did.

[Beau Friedlander]

And that has proven true. I mean, you're a profiler, but you're not a psych. Are you a psycho? Do you have a degree in psychology?

[Jim Clemente]

No, I don't have a degree in psychology. I, I've certainly taken a whole bunch of psychology courses in the undergrad and in the graduate level in the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit. It's part of the national center for the Analysis of Violent Crime. We actually study with world renowned psychologists and psychiatrists on a one to one basis. It's not a diploma program. It is a certification program for FBI profilers.

[Beau Friedlander]

But profiling is. I mean, I, I will go back to the Unabomber for a second because a lot of people asked me, how did you get him to trust you? And it wasn't because I was a criminal, because it wasn't. It was because I honestly, I read the manifesto and I read everything that I could find that had something to do with what actually came out of his mouth or his typewriter. And I wrote a letter that seemed like it would be the appropriate way to talk to someone like that.

[Jim Clemente]

Wow. Yeah. So you profile them in your head and, and then used that to get access to them. And certainly that's what we did as law enforcement officers.

[Beau Friedlander]

I tried to get his vibe. I just tried to get his vibe. And then when I was like, okay, this guy probably likes precision. This guy probably doesn't like any throat clearing whatsoever. He, you know, the statement is what is required. Anything more than the statement is going to lose you points. And he's keeping score.

[Jim Clemente]

He was an injustice collector and certainly a, you know, I would say probably a vulnerable narcissist. And he certainly harbored a tremendous amount of anger and rage. Yeah. And, and towards his folks.

[Beau Friedlander]

Towards his. Actually, if you go back, like, because I spoke to Quinn Denver about this as the prosecutor, you know, his defender.

[Jim Clemente]

Yeah.

[Beau Friedlander]

And, and, and Quinn was like, beau, you don't understand what you're walking into. And to be fair, I was 27 years old and he was right. And, and, but I, I, I had whatever, you know, that sixth sense was to understand how to talk to him. So I had access for a while until he finally did call. And he said, if you think I can't get to you from prison, you're out of your mind.

[Jim Clemente]

Yeah. Wow.

[Beau Friedlander]

And I was like, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, he did. He was mad at me. When I think about what happened between me and Ted Kaczynski, it was not like I was not hacking him, but I was. And I think that's probably a bit of what you do as a profile. You're kind of hacking an individual to understand how to get access.

[Jim Clemente]

Well, yeah. So there is during the investigation, when you're trying to identify him through his behavior. Right. You're reverse engineering the behavior to figure out what kind of person does this.

[Beau Friedlander]

Yeah.

[Jim Clemente]

And then, then there's attempting to get him to interact with us so that he's going to eventually leak out more and more and more information. And then there's after the fact, getting him to. After he's convicted and sentenced, getting him to actually open up and talk to us. Those are things that we would do as a part of our normal operating procedure in the behavioral analysis unit. We were not able to do that last part. And you were so.

[Beau Friedlander]

Well, no, but I had information you didn't have. He had already been arrested. There was already his. There were interviews with David Kaczynski, his brother, brother and his. And his sister in law. I don't know if his mom, Wanda ever said anything, but I know there was a lot of information out there and it was about a month old. So. No, I had a ton of information you didn't have.

[Jim Clemente]

But what I'm saying is once we had the information, once he was convicted, we couldn't get him to talk to us. Generally, we can get serial offenders to talk to us so we can document their crimes and, and they go down in history and that feeds their ego enough to allow us in and to give us really, really detailed explanations about what they were thinking at the time, how, how this whole thought process developed and so on and so forth.

[Beau Friedlander]

So here's the interesting thing though, is I want to. I want to segue here to this idea of hacking. Kaczynski was good at it. You're good at it. Kaczynski couldn't be found for a long time because he didn't exist. A homeless man living in the woods doesn't have an address. They don't have a subscription to TV Guide. They don't have an electric bill. They don't have. Maybe he had an electric bill, but I don't remember if he had electricity

[Jim Clemente]

up there, but he did not.

[Beau Friedlander]

Nope. So completely not connected, in other words, doesn't exist.

[Jim Clemente]

Right. He, he was so off the grid and he went so low tech on us that all the traditional ways of investigating bombings, almost all of them were completely thwarted. He carved his, the bombs out of wood. He picked up parts from a junkyard, a car junkyard, or from neighbors junkyards, wires and batteries. He peeled off the exterior of the batteries. He fabricated many of the things that generally we would go back and find out when, when and where they were purchased and start narrowing down the number of people that were in the store at that time purchasing those things. And eventually we were able to find, you know, all the other bombers that we found in those ways, but not him, because he was doing things and deliberately, for example, picking up hairs from a gas station restroom and putting them on inside one of his letters and you know, you know, using forensics against us. But those sophisticated moves told Jim Fitzgerald that we're not dealing with, you know, some dumb airplane mechanic, like everybody was thinking at first. And we're dealing with somebody who's very sophisticated, very well educated, and, and, and is trying to pull the wool over

[Beau Friedlander]

our eyes but couldn't be found. And my, my, my point here is that the, the couldn't be found part is I think there's a lot of people in the world, including myself right now, that wish that were the case, that wish that, you know, when social media happened, I maybe had with just been like, nah, I don't think so. I don't think I'm gonna do that. Or like when podcasting became a thing, like maybe I'm not gonna put my voice print out there a thousand million times so anyone can imitate me in my image and all the other things. Like maybe that's all kind of a bad idea. The cat's out of the bag for all of us. Coming up, whether you live in the woods or the desert, ah, you're not off the hook.

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[Beau Friedlander]

So you know, you know how criminals work. You have a very, very finely tuned sense of the extremely nuanced ways that a criminal can achieve their goals. The reason you're here today is, believe it or not, not to talk about the Unabomber, but because somebody figured out how to get to you. Now, I happen to know you have a UFO in your front yard. Now, it's not a real ufo. I think it's not.

[Jim Clemente]

Right, well, well, I think I'm going to decline to answer that question.

[Beau Friedlander]

You did work for the FBI. It is an open, open question. But, you know, so you, you live, you live out in the desert. Fair enough. Fair, fair enough. Okay. So you live out in the desert and you know, you've been associated with some very big media projects. Criminal Minds is a huge, huge show. You're findable, you're knowable. Has anyone you've ever prosecute, has that ever been an issue with anyone that you've ever been on the, the right side of the law against?

[Jim Clemente]

Well, certainly while I was in the FBI, I stayed away from all social media. And it wasn't until I retired and got more involved in entertainment and media and production and writing that that I actually got more involved in it. And I have not had any incidents with people that I have locked up. Fortunately, a lot of the people that I locked up are in forever. They're not getting out. But certainly some of them have gotten out. Some of them been deported or were on a hold for another jurisdiction when they got out. So those are, I'm not too concerned about, but certainly, yeah, some bad people who did horrible things, they're out there. However, it's very taboo for criminals to attack agents because they know that if you do that what you, the firestorm that you bring down on yourself is just tremendous. There will be no, not only no stone left unturned, but no prostitutive avenue left untapped. So everything will get thrown at you. And so generally that doesn't happen. The agents who have been killed, especially in the last several decades, are, were killed by people who had lost their own desire to live and thought they would. You're Better off not being around and taking an agent or two with them. So. Yeah, but it, it rarely ever happens that somebody actually comes through and, and goes after an agent after they've been pursued and arrested and prosecuted.

[Beau Friedlander]

That makes sense. And if, if you didn't hear a very implicit threat there, then you weren't listening because it does sound, it sounds like it's real. It's a real thing. Now your stuff is out there, though. And yeah, I mean, you, you've had, you recently had something happen to you, a scam that, that didn't have anything to do with who you are, did it?

[Jim Clemente]

I don't believe so. But I do know that, you know, my, my assistant is, is a very sophisticated I T. Guy who, who really understands the vulnerability of our information, data being out there. But, you know, you have doctors and hospitals and dentists and pharmacies and you know, general, you, you use Microsoft, you use Apple, whatever. Everybody, every major organization has, has been hacked at one point or another. And so they may get a piece of your information here and there and somewhere else. And so it becomes almost impossible to completely protect yourself because you, there are things, the dmv, the utility companies, that. There are so many places in your

[Beau Friedlander]

fishing, your fishing license. I mean, it can be anything.

[Jim Clemente]

I know it can be. It's. And it's those agencies that aren't protecting your information well enough and so on. You know, on the dark web, people sell this kind of information to random people. And if those people are able to find, you know, do a search, which is not too difficult, that they can put together pieces from different places and create a alternate Persona using your information, alternate accounts. And basically in my case, it was, you know, one of the, the, the payment apps that I paid a. Somebody who worked for me through that app, somebody who helped me, you know, on construction project, and that linked my card to that account and that ended up giving them access. They created, from what I've been able to piece together, they created a separate account using the same card and then just in a matter of days started making these charges. And you know, they're, they. There's a delay between when they actually do that and when it actually hits your bank. And all of a sudden all of these like 30 or 40 transactions hit my bank at the same time, and none of them were stopped by the bank, which really pissed me off because how many times have you been either traveling or even in your own town going to three different stores in the same day and using the same card? And then the third Time you try to use it, they block it because they thought it might be fraud.

[Beau Friedlander]

Yeah.

[Jim Clemente]

However, in this case, 30 or 40 transactions have been done and they don't notify me until my account is overdrawn. Completely cleaned it out. And that, that should have been something they caught.

[Beau Friedlander]

The interesting thing that you just brought up is, is that the, the institution where you're supposed to get remedied. Right. Is. Has created operational signal disruption.

[Jim Clemente]

Yes.

[Beau Friedlander]

But you know, and, and then signal disruption, if you're in, you know, trying to protect information is super important. You know, like, you don't want your signal intercepted. Your signal was intercepted. You got taken for a ride. But the company that presided over that, that hijacking has created a systemic signal disruption. So that when you want to say, here's the clear signal. I got scammed. I need you to help me get my account back online.

[Jim Clemente]

Right.

[Beau Friedlander]

That's the direct signal and protected. And we see that you got scammed. Cool. We're going to get you back online. Now. That's a pure signal. Like, you know, question asked and answered. They create a system where, I mean, it's almost, it's almost comical if it weren't such, such a pain in the butt that you, you have, you ask a question, it gets repeated by telephone five times, and by the time it gets back to you, it's not what you asked.

[Jim Clemente]

Right.

[Beau Friedlander]

It's not what you asked. It's something entirely different. Now let's go back to, like, what actually happened. Did you have on the card associated with this account? Did you have transaction alerts turned on so that you get a text every time a charge is made on the card?

[Jim Clemente]

Yes, but the alerts are apparently associated with the account and they switched the account. They made a different account with the same card. And so those alerts did not reach me.

[Beau Friedlander]

What were, what was the nature of the charges? What kind? What were they buying? Were they buying frozen turkeys? Were they buying guns?

[Jim Clemente]

All. All cash withdrawals. All cash transfers.

[Beau Friedlander]

Really?

[Jim Clemente]

Every one of them? Yes.

[Beau Friedlander]

Wow.

[Jim Clemente]

Every one of them. And that's why I'm saying, like, why did my bank not see that and immediately stop them?

[Beau Friedlander]

Are these withdrawals or are these cash transfers? Cash transfers?

[Jim Clemente]

Yeah. Within that third party app.

[Beau Friedlander]

Yeah, yeah. So within that third party thing that you were using, you can do cash advances. Yes.

[Jim Clemente]

And what they did was, I've been explained that they had my information where they were able to create a new account.

[Beau Friedlander]

Yeah.

[Jim Clemente]

That. That was linked to their bank account.

[Beau Friedlander]

Oh, my God. I know what happened. So someone Bought your debit card information off the Dark Web marketplace. That, that, that might not be how it happened, but I'm guessing that's how it happened. So they had your card number, the expiration date ccv, and they connected it to a new account on the same peer to peer money app. Here's the thing about that. A lot of these peer to peer financial apps, their card verification at the linking stage is pretty weak. So they might, they require the number, all the stuff that I just said. But there's no other step that confirms the person linking the card actually owns it. Yep. So compare that to linking a bank account where you, you know, you have to use plaid, for example. You know, there's a lot, there's a lot that goes into that. You have to sign in yourself, which, you know, if you're smart, has two FA involved. So big difference. Really big difference. And I think the reason you didn't get any alerts is very simple. Your card wasn't actually being swiped anywhere. This was an ach. Right. This is what's happening with these peer to peer apps. The payment processor is not seeing it as a. There's no merchant. There's just, it's just an ACH transaction. Cash is moving. They're just charging the account. So from their perspective, the bank's perspective, nothing unusual happened. And unfortunately, your checking account got quietly drained because of that. And that's, and that's.

[Jim Clemente]

How am I supposed to protect myself from that? I don't even know. You don't get the no vacation.

[Beau Friedlander]

You're not, you're not, you're not. I think that there was nothing you could have done. I think that they had information about your accounts from the Dark Web. And I think furthermore, that if we scratch a little bit into your, I hate to say this, into your cyber hygiene, we're going to find a few behaviors that need to be upgraded.

[Jim Clemente]

Probably.

[Beau Friedlander]

I think you got hit by somebody who, who knew what they were doing. How much money are we talking about?

[Jim Clemente]

Well, they got about 4,300 and I think it was $4,334.42.

[Beau Friedlander]

That's a bit too specific a twist on it, but yeah. So they got enough money that they might, you know, and, and they had no idea that there wasn't $20,000 there or $50,000.

[Jim Clemente]

Right. They just kept spending until they couldn't get any more. More out.

[Beau Friedlander]

All right, so, Jim, so was it. Wait a second. Now I do want to clarify. Was it. It was a credit card or a debit Card.

[Jim Clemente]

It was a debit card.

[Beau Friedlander]

Okay, so you. I know by the way that you said that because I, I've heard that micro expressions aren't real, but I beg to differ. Your. Your micro expressions suggest that you are aware that debit card is not the ideal thing to connect to.

[Jim Clemente]

Well, especially since the bank told me that that was risky behavior and that they're considering it my fault.

[Beau Friedlander]

No, no, no, because that's.

[Jim Clemente]

I don't.

[Beau Friedlander]

No, no, no. That's garbage. That's such a garbage response.

[Jim Clemente]

I know, and it pissed me off. And believe me, I let them know that you did. But literally, they said, yeah, we just sent you a letter explaining that you took a not extreme risk. They said some. Some other word that wasn't quite extreme. You took the risk of putting your debit card on this app, and therefore we consider your business to be too risky. And they said, we are closing that account.

[Beau Friedlander]

I hope that you challenge that, and I'm going to tell you why. The famous example of this, Jim, is Zelle. There are a lot of scams on Zelle and Venmo. And now, you know, when you go on those apps, they now have prominently, like, are you sure you're not falling for a scam? Are you positive? Like, who is this person? Why are you giving them money? Or do you. Do you want to make sure that that's their phone number and email? They ask you a thousand questions and you call him Bob. But are you sure this is Robert Bob, like Bobby, that guy. They want to know. And now. But here's the deal. First of all, I happen to know, and with a little open source intelligence, so can you, dear listener, who the company was, and they have a limit of $500 liability that they will agree to, and you should at least go after that. But that's just like, to me, abusive behavior. For them to say, well, because you did this thing, we're not giving you. Not only are we not giving you your money back, but we're banning you from the. You're no longer allowed on the island. Like, that's bonkers.

[Jim Clemente]

It is bonkers. It. It really upset me and especially since the app was supposed to be a protection. Right. It was not. I mean, that company, they're saying, oh, we can't go after the money because the, the charges came out of your account to this app and the app is a third party.

[Beau Friedlander]

That's the trick.

[Jim Clemente]

Transfer.

[Beau Friedlander]

No, no, that's. That's the trick is that.

[Jim Clemente]

And therefore we can't. They don't have the Money. So we can't go to them and we can't go through to where the money went to. We're legally prohibited from doing that. And it just.

[Beau Friedlander]

No, but that's of course because. But it's the same thing. I mean, given what you did at the FBI, you'll know this one, Section 230, which it protected companies like meta, Google, Facebook, Twitter, it protected them against things that were said on their platforms in the comments. So like somebody in the comments could say, here's how you make a pipe bomb.

[Jim Clemente]

Right?

[Beau Friedlander]

And Facebook could say, we didn't publish that. We have no liability. We can't control what people say. And it's a similar kind of like absolute despicable tech bro point of view about liability. Like, well, it's not really our problem because see, we are just, we're just the wire between the two cups.

[Jim Clemente]

We're just a pass through. Yeah. We're not really involved in it and we don't really investigate. They said, well, we don't investigate who is behind those transactions, but we'll cooperate with your bank. They'll investigate it. And my bank is.

[Beau Friedlander]

We don't investigate, we annihilate.

[Jim Clemente]

Yeah, well, my bank says, no, no, no, no, no, no. We have turned it over to our, you know, investigative team and they are only able to look at the, the entity that is listed in the transaction. We cannot go through that entity to the next level. The actual person who actually took the money. You can make a police complaint and they can do an investigation. And of course I know, because I worked for the FBI that if this happened in my town, I could go to my town police and tell them and they might make an attempt at investigating. But there's no way this person or entity was in my town. They might not be in my country or my continent or in my, you know, hemisphere. And so there's no way that a local police agency is going to investigate that. And the FBI has, has benchmarks. If it's not over a certain amount, they're not going to investigate it. They don't have the resources to address every fraud, every cyber fraud that's reported to IC3. And so I know that the amount that was stolen from me is not a significant amount compared to what they will actually investigate. So I'm basically out of luck there.

[Beau Friedlander]

Well, that. That's right. So did you live at.

[Jim Clemente]

Do I have to say.

[Beau Friedlander]

Yes, yes, you don't have to, but that's. You. Well, I mean, that's.

[Jim Clemente]

What's the purpose of you Asking me that.

[Beau Friedlander]

The purpose is because there's. There's because data online that breadcrumbs people and allows us to put together, you know, a semblance of understanding who someone is. It's the same thing as reading a bunch of stuff by Kaczynski and kind of figuring out what his.

[Jim Clemente]

Reverse engineering. Yeah.

[Beau Friedlander]

What he's going to respond to. And these scams happen because you get reverse engineered. They just need a piece of you. And it sounds to me like it was a synthetic attack. And you. They needed a piece of you. They needed your. In this case, checking account, and they had no idea what was going to be in it. But I suspect they did know that there might be more than $10 in it because you are a successful podcaster, you worked on Criminal Minds, you're a known entity, so probably some money, and that's all it took. And it is part of the puzzle because these, these exposers are not just on the dark web. It's. It's a. It's a combination of things. And. And that's kind of what I was trying to get at earlier when we were talking about the cat being out of the bag, because once, you know, when you were at the FBI, you were probably relatively safe.

[Jim Clemente]

Yeah.

[Beau Friedlander]

You know, this. This time, this. This episode should be called An FBI Profiler. Agrees with me that it's important to think like the Unabomber, because when it comes to your, you know, protecting yourself online, you kind of have to. I mean, you kind of. And it does come to signal disruption. So the hairs that Kaczynski left in letters intentionally, that he picked up somewhere else that weren't his, but that were going to be a beautiful DNA red herring to the FBI. Those were signal disruptions. And the idea, I think, is quite sound that you want to create as many signal disruptions is possible. You know, it is become sort of Professor Moriarty versus Sherlock Holmes.

[Jim Clemente]

Right. And the bank is so good at the signal disruptions. So I love that characterization of it, because I wouldn't have come up with that myself, but each one of those departments that I had to deal with, and there were seven of them.

[Beau Friedlander]

Yeah.

[Jim Clemente]

Refused to take, to stay on the line to talk to the next level. Right. So I had to start from zero with each person, and when I got there to the next thing, almost inevitably they said, oh, well, you have to go back to that person and do this again. But then you have to go forward to this other person and do this. And it just. You eventually get so frustrated with this process. That you're like, you, you just want to give up on it. You. Look, I don't have the time to spend another five hours on the phone today because I have work to do and I have a life to live and I just can't. I can't keep pursuing this and arguing with people and saying, no, that's not the case. Oh, yeah, look, this department made this determination, so you have to do this.

[Beau Friedlander]

Yeah, no, but, you know, it's signal disruption in the way that, you know, Muhammad Ali's rope a dope strategy against George Foreman was signal disruption like, you want to hit me? Okay. Nope. Oops, missed. Do it again.

[Jim Clemente]

Oh, wow.

[Beau Friedlander]

Looks like I'm tired, huh? Nope, you missed. That is kind of what they're doing is rope a dope with you. You are going to tire yourself out trying to get where you're going. Now. Now, do I think it's probably institutionalized? Yes. I personally think it's institutionalized. Are they going to sue me? Well, we haven't said who they are, so no. But the fact is it seems, it seems intentional. And you know, Occam's razor says if it seems so, it probably is. The attack also seems like it's related to your data being a few different places. And what it suggests is a few things like best practices are obviously, you know, this one, don't, don't use your, your debit card provides less protection than a credit card. That's it. That's the bottom line. Now, I, I actually will tell you that a debit card does afford quite a bit of protection, and I think you need to push back. I do think that for 40 some odd 4,000 some odd dollars, you, it is worth pushing back. And I just, you know, also just think it's a shame because not all of us have the good fortune of having a million dollars stolen from us so that the FBI will get involved.

[Jim Clemente]

Right.

[Beau Friedlander]

We've had guests on the show who've lost upwards to $600,000. They're often older adults. Often it's retirement savings, often through Southeast Asian scam compounds. And if you haven't heard the episodes that we did on, on those scam compounds, they're worth your time. Please go back and listen to them. I totally recommend them. Bottom line on recovery, it's possible, especially with crypto, which is more traceable than people think. Aaron west out in California has had real success clawing money back with her peeps. But by and large, gone is gone unless your, your bank decides to honor the relationship. As for Best practices. Mine are a pain in the butt by design. The idea is to make your debit card inert, basically inert by default. Locked. Unless you're actually using it. Locked again the minute you're done using it. And I only use it for at ATMs, period. And when I'm using an ATM, I cover my fingers when I'm entering my PIN code. Yes, I do all that. The same principle applies to my SIM card in my phone. Phone. I call, I've called my carrier, and I let them know that I want extra protections so that my number can't be transferred without my direct involvement. Friction is the point. The goal is to make yourself a bad target. Just a pain in the butt. Like, not an easy target.

[Jim Clemente]

All right?

[Beau Friedlander]

It doesn't, it doesn't exist for anything else. It exists for going to ATMs, period. And that is, I think, the safest you can get with, with a debit card. Maybe there's one step safer, which is not having one. An all new season of the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney.

[Jim Clemente]

Plus mom talk has just been blowing up. Whitney and Jen are on Dancing with the Stars. Taylor is a bachelorette. Saying that out loud is crazy. Like that is huge. But all the cool opportunities could pull us apart. It's causing issues in everyone's marriage. My whole world is falling apart right now. It's chaos.

[Beau Friedlander]

Watch the Hulu original series, the Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. So, Jim, it's telling that we can talk openly about something like child sex abuse and it's embarrassing to talk about getting scammed. Both are often beyond anything we can control. I mean, they're reasons.

[Jim Clemente]

Vulnerabilities.

[Beau Friedlander]

Vulnerabilities. But also, as a fellow survivor, I can say, like, it was beyond anything I can control. But the, the, at the time when I was seven. But the, the other thing is when, when we're in this ecosystem with threat actors everywhere and our information everywhere, it's beyond our control. And it is sometimes the luck of the draw just that they haven't gotten to you yet. And the best thing you can do is have protection so that when they get you, they don't get very much.

[Jim Clemente]

Right. Well, that's, that's good advice. And yeah, it's a learning experience. And unfortunately, I, you know, luckily I'm at a point in my life where I am, I am very cognizant of how frustration and anxiety is not healthy. And so I'm making a positive effort to let the things that I cannot control roll off my back and do the best I can to prevent them from happening again. That's. That's the best way, I guess, to put it, but without carrying around the, you know, all of that emotional baggage that generally follows when something horrible like this happens to you. At least it's not completely devastating. At least it's not life taking.

[Beau Friedlander]

Yeah. And. And, and so, Jim, I want to thank you so much for joining me on what the Hack this week.

[Jim Clemente]

Well, thank you for having me.

[Beau Friedlander]

It's time for the Tinfoil Swan, our paranoid takeaway to keep you safe on and offline. I'm gonna say it again. The bottom line with the debit card is use it as little as possible. Never, ever, ever use it to buy something. Don't I use it only for atm, only to get cash, Period. That's it. The end. And when I'm not using it, it's locked. I go into the app and I say, it's lost. They ask me, do you need a new card? I say, no, no, no. I know where it is somewhere. But I just. It's lost. For the time being. I've only gotten a phone call once. Now. Keep it locked. And when you go to your ATM to get money out, unlock it. And when you're done getting the money, lock it again. Keep your phone in your hand. I mean it, like, only open to get cash. Sure. There are phone carriers and other companies that will give you a break on your monthly fees if you use your direct payment from a bank, from your checking account, Totally fine. Use your ABA routing number and your. Your account number. Don't use your debit card number. Just don't. It's not for that. You know. You know what? You know, when you put your debit card out there, what happens is it gets you scammed. And I'm not saying that you're not going to get scammed if you do exactly what I just said, because we all know every time we think you're safe, you're not. So I'm just saying make yourself as hard to hit as possible and have a great week. Thanks for listening. This episode of what the Hack was produced by me and Andrew Stephen, who also did the editing. What? The Hack is a production of Delete Me, which was picked by the New York Times Wirecutter as the number one personal information removal service. You should be using it already. If you're not and you want to, well, you can. Here's what to do? Go to joindeleteme.com wth that's joindeleteme.com WTH and get 20% off. I kid you not. 20%. 20% off. That's joindeleteme.Com WTH now. Stay safe out there. See you around.

[Colin Cole]

Sometimes it feels like red and blue states are just as divergent as post World War II east and West Germany. So what can the US learn from German political history in order to create a more perfect union? Find out on the new season of the Future of Our Former Democracy the Signal Award winning podcast from More Equitable Democracy and Large Media hosted by me, Colin Cole and Heather Villanueva. It's time to rethink democracy. So follow the future of our Former Democracy wherever you get your podcasts.

[Hiba Balfaqueh]

Not all darkness is dangerous. Sometimes it's the doorway to becoming whole. On the brand new podcast the Shadow Sessions, hosted by me, Hiba Balfaqueh, a psychologist and trauma expert, we shed light on the hidden corners of the human experience through raw, unfiltered conversations from the edge of hill healing. The Shadow Sessions invites you to do the deeper work that leads to real change. Follow the Shadow Sessions wherever you're listening now.