← What We Wore
What We Wore
164. ARCHIVE | Live from the Brentwood Country Mart with Anya Hindmarch, Gregg Renfrew, and Laura Vinroot Poole
00:35:34
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign. I'm Laura Vinrut, pool of capital. And this is what we wore. As my friend Greg Renfrew relaunches her company counter and Anya Hein March visits our Charlotte store, I wanted to re air this powerful conversation led by our leadership coach, Ashley Wick. I got your book. You kindly sent me your book. And I spent the weekend reading it. And I felt so bad for my husband because he kept on coming in the room to ask me questions. And I was so annoyed because I was so into the book. I started by highlighting and then, then I was highlighting full pages and like the whole book was highlighted. So then I just started to turn pages and so the poor book is like, pitiful.
- [00:49]
B
But you're such a star. That's proper homework.
- [00:53]
A
Oh, Anya, it was so good. And I don't know that I'd ever really had a book that spoke to me so directly because I think, and I hate to say this, I don't know, in the South, I didn't have a lot of mentors. There weren't a lot of women that worked that I could talk to about all these things. And it really, really spoke to me. And I think it's a really important book, especially for women who work and are entrepreneurs.
- [01:17]
B
We are that generation. I can't remember they gave a name to it. It was called the transition generation, where we are actually effectively. You know, my mother didn't work in quite the same way and juggle it all. So, you know, we're having to find our own way. So I think that was the point of just trying to be kind and sort of sad as it is a little bit, really. So thank you. Well, your staff are reading it.
- [01:35]
A
Thank you. No, I loved it. Thank you. Where are you from? Are you from the. The house where. Where we went to Wiggy's wedding?
- [01:42]
B
Yes, exactly. You know, exactly where I'm from. I'm from that house which sadly we sold actually, because my parents got older and they, they wanted to move to London. So we all made a decision about keep or not to keep and we all decided not to. So. So, yeah, so that was very much where I was brought up. So brought up in the countryside.
- [01:59]
A
And were your parents entrepreneurs?
- [02:01]
B
Yeah, in fact, my. Well, my mother was very much helped my father, but my father was the entrepreneur particularly, probably. But then all my aunts also have their own business and all my siblings and now sister in law as well. So it is a bit of an entrepreneurial disease in our family.
- [02:16]
A
It really is. And then were your grandparents in the picture did they live nearby?
- [02:20]
B
They did live quite nearby. One set did and we were very close to them, which is very lovely. Close to all of my grandparents. But one set particularly nearby. Yeah.
- [02:28]
A
Were you always interested in fashion?
- [02:30]
B
Yes, I was, I was actually. But in a way I was interested in how things were made and how things made you feel, I think more than just fashion per se. But of course, no, absolutely interested in fashion. But I'm still those two things. How they're made and how they make you feel. Particularly why I'm interested in fashion.
- [02:46]
A
I think you went to Catholic school with the illustrious Sister Angela. I always think girls that get at a Catholic school have the best style, I guess because you have to think about it way harder.
- [02:57]
B
You know, I think the thing is, uniform is interesting because to a certain extent, if you restrict people, they. They become creative with very little. And at school, and mine was a very sort of strict Catholic convent where, you know, we had a strict. We were. We had uniform down to our underwear. Even our school shoes were uniform shoes, uniform pants. I mean, it was literally era pants, meaning underpants. So, you know, we had no way really of having self expression, which is a very important thing. And that's what's interesting for me about fashion. So therefore you found a way to be yourself through the way you tied your hair and even that was quite strictly controlled. But through the stickers on your notebook or, you know, just little ways of actually sort of being, you know, expressing your character. So it's kind of interesting the way it forces you to think quite creatively, I think.
- [03:41]
A
Agreed. And do you recall the first handbag that you fell in love with?
- [03:45]
B
Well, my mother, who is still and was always quite a sort of, sort of a style pinup lady for me really in many ways, because she always dressed really beautiful, a lot of care with how she dressed. And I remember the bags she used to have and they were sort of quite influential to some of my design. And I remember being really interested and she had all these beautiful sort of thin belts as well, lots of lovely leather goods. But there was a bag that she gave me actually when I was about 16, maybe 15. 16, which is one of her bags, which was a bag that I just remember that it made me feel very grown up and kind of very pulled together and. And it was that feeling of how fashion changes to a certain extent, your confidence levels that there's always been so interesting to me. That's a very powerful thing to be able to do for women, I think when you make, you know, when you Put on the right shoes or you put on the right outfit, you either feel amazing or you put it on and you just feel a little bit awkward and not quite right. And that's the magic, I think, of fashion. And you must see this every day. People leaving, feeling better, you know, that's a very special thing to be able to do. I think actually that's the goal. So that's the bit. Well, that's more than fashion. A powerful psychological tool actually. And that's why I will never have people talk down about fashion as being a frilly subject. You know, a, as a business. It's a very, very powerful business and employer. A huge boon to the economy. But it's also a massively. And it's also an element of art and breaking new ground and so on. But it's also this incredible psychological boost. And I think that's, that's a very interesting thing.
- [05:08]
A
Will you share what you now understand as your first visualization exercise at age 16?
- [05:13]
B
So. Well, when I was given this handbag, I remember thinking I really want to open a shop. I guess that was sort of my only route to market that I knew at that time. And I actually went back to my, I was at a boarding school so to my kind of cubicle, it was my room and I, I drew a shot with my name on it with handbags in the window. And I drew it because I suppose I was dreaming and imagining. But actually I do strongly believe in that idea of actually if you commit it in a way to paper or to a post it note in front of your nose or, or say it, you're actually much more likely for it to happen. I'm a huge believer in that. So I think that was probably my first version of the, the creative visualization without knowing it at all. The store that we have in Sloane street in London, here in London at the moment, it's this beautiful corner store. It's very, quite a large store, incredibly famous street, Sloan Street. And, and I wrote to the landlord saying I really, really would like to rent this store. And it was, I could tell it was coming up soon. And I actually made him, as Christmas time, actually made him an advent calendar, you know, with sort of, you know, day one to day 25. And on the picture on the, the, the background of the calendar was actually Sloane street store with my name on it with all the handbags in the window. And then each window that you opened from 1 to 25 was me with a picture holding a sign. I mean mad saying and Sloane Street Anya should be in Sloane Street. Anya wants. I knew this landlord quite well. I think he thought I was either. He either took pity on me, I think, probably, or just quite sort of quite. Thought it was quite charming. But again, in a way, I was sort of manifesting for him in many respects, I was giving him that visualization.
- [06:46]
A
Well, and speaking of gumption, will you talk a little bit about how you had the wherewithal at 18 years old to design your first handbag and find a manufacturer in Florence?
- [06:56]
B
Well, I think it was an interesting time in the UK or even in the world at that point where there was a real movement for business. So in the uk we had. Margaret Thatcher was our Prime Minister, which is interesting in itself because a. She was a woman, which was, you know, quite empowering to sort of see a female leader and, you know, the first ever female Prime Minister. And also, of course, she. She used the. The word handbag as a verb to handbag someone. So that was quite pleasing for me. But there was a definite momentum to businesses starting. So in the uk there were things like Pret a Manger and Carfoon, Warehous and next. And there was just this momentum of businesses, you know, many of whom I knew actually they were sort of my generation or a little bit older. And it is always that thing where if you see it, you, you know, you believe you could be it. I really. I really do believe in that. And so there was this sense that actually if they could do it, I could do it. And I think it was at a time when there was a lot of slashing of sort of red tape and there was just like, go, go, go. So there's a real movement towards sort of opening businesses. So that, plus the fact that of course I come from this family who all have their own businesses meant that it didn't feel quite as frightening as it. As it might do. Perhaps people. And I think, anyway, when you were young, a. I was. I think I'm probably quite a natural entrepreneur in the sense that I'm quite restless in the classroom, shall we say, and not very good at taking instruction, perhaps. Also I. I just really wanted to start my own business. And when you're young, you have absolutely no sense of fear. I think it's quite a good time to start a business, actually, because you, you know, it's not like you've got a mortgage and three children and you're taking very big risks. You can just get going in a very small way and you learn a huge amount. You know, you learn about invoicing and payment terms and banks and credit notes and, you know, pro forma invoices versus, you know, factoring payments. There's loads that you learn just almost by osmosis as you kind of go through that process. So. So I think probably a sort of an entrepreneurial background, a bit of a movement in the UK and. And probably sort of a bit of a cocky 18 year old possibly. I ended up just getting going.
- [08:47]
A
What was it like getting production done in Italy as a woman?
- [08:51]
B
Well, it's interesting with all the sort of Me Too movements and everything that's happened since. When you look back at it through that filter, it's, it's, you know, it was probably quite particular, honestly, because, you know, I was 18, which is crazy young and you can see that they might not take you seriously as someone who's a customer, which I, I get equally though there were people, absolutely who were saying, let's meet you in the piano bar. You know, you're like, no, no, no, I'm here to try and design a mini product. So you had to navigate your way through that. And I remember in Italy, you know, I found a way to get samples and then they started copying my designs and then in the uk I found a much smaller manufacturer that I could work with. And I remember once he said, come and sit on my knee and we'll discuss it. So there was definitely quite a lot. But you know, he wasn't threatening, he was just a sort of funny old man. And you know, you, you find your way through making sure you're not. I mean, it's just, it's a shame, isn't that women have to go through that. But there was, you know, there's certainly been an element of that, but you know, it's wrong, but that's how it was. And I navigated my way through and it was, it never felt scary. But different times, right?
- [09:44]
A
Yeah, different times. And then, and then how did you get from producing that first collection to actually selling it? How did you even know how to do that?
- [09:51]
B
That's the point. I didn't. I had a suitcase of something which I schlepped around. I faxed a million letters to customers I wanted to sell to you, then try and get someone to write about you so you can sort of say, as seen in Vogue or whatever, just add the letter saying, you know, I have some sort of credibility. And then if you get one customer, you then say, as seen in Vogue and sold through this one customer. And as you get two customers, you're as seen and sold in these two customers. Yeah. And then of course, you've got to juggle getting the product delivered, which is hard because you're always the bottom of everyone's list with small minimums. And then once you get it sold, you've then got to juggle being paid. And there were an awful lot of people who just. And I remember once going to one shop who had my product and hadn't paid me and sitting in their shop and saying, I'm just not leaving until you pay me, you know, which is really uncomfortable and it's actually bad how. And it's something. I've been on the board of the British Fashion Council for a number of years, actually no longer. But one of the things that, you know, I think that shops should pay these young designers, you know, it's just really dishonest, honestly. And it's one thing you might have, you know, negotiating terms with the really big beasts, but actually with the young ones, you've really got to be responsible. So, you know, you learn a huge amount and. And it's the best. It's the best business school. I mean, obviously, I think it is better than any business school and I would often argue that you're better to get going than spend all that money on university to then four years later get going. I actually think you learn on the job and I think that's a good way to go if you. If you're that sort of person.
- [11:11]
A
I agree. And also, I think you and I started about the same time and we also, maybe 10 years in, went through the recession, 2008. So that really was the best business school. Right.
- [11:22]
B
I mean, yes, recessions are tough and of course, there's nothing good about a recession because so many businesses are lost and jobs are lost, which is tragic. But you learn to run a really tight business. It makes you very realistic. And actually the lesson really is to always run your business to a certain extent as if you were in a recession. It makes for a very sharp entrepreneur, I think, and so they are horrible. But sometimes it also enables you to make decisions that you might not have been brave enough to do that actually probably needed doing. So I think there's, you know, the expression that they often say, actually she's never waste a good recession, which is a horrible expression, but it's true. It allows you to perhaps be a bit bold and brave in actually getting the business in the right shape. And if something wasn't working and you think, I'll keep trying, I'll keep trying, you actually kind of Go, you know what, let's call it. It's not working. So it forces you to actually make some good decisions sometimes.
- [12:12]
A
One of the biggest things for me that came out of it was just making sure that you're working with partners that you want to work with and getting rid of the ones that you don't want to work with. And it gets really clear in a recession, you're like, I'm not doing this anymore.
- [12:25]
B
For me, partnership. And I've been working well since I was 18 and I'm 55. You, it. Partnership is the word. And the suppliers we've supplied and the people who supply us, we work really closely with. And there are moments when they might have a cash pension. We'll help them. There might be moments when we've got a problem because something's faulty and we've got to find a way around. You know, they need to remake something quickly, whatever it might be. If you have loyalty and partnership, you can get through most things. And I think you know that that's something in business you learn. It's the same with anything. It's friendship, isn't it? It's like paying it forward and being decent and those, those, Those concessions you make and those. That good behavior is rewarded, I think.
- [13:02]
A
Speaking of partnership, I want to talk about James and how that changed your life, meeting your husband.
- [13:06]
B
Well, quite a lot, really. So my husband, we've been married for 27 years now. He's 12 years older than me, and when I met him, he had three children, age 1, 3 and 4, and had tragically just lost his wife, who had. Who had died in an operation that went wrong. So really, really sad situation. And I never met his wife, sadly. But I. When I met him, I knew from the moment I met him that I was going to marry him in that weird way I don't really believe in at all. You know, reformed this family. And we had a. Took a while before we had more children, but we did have two more children. So we have a family of five children, which feels like a family, which is really, really my proudest achievement, I would say, because it really does feel like a family. And I feel very lucky. James joined the business actually, not long after, I think, when we were expecting our first child together. And so we've worked together ever since, which probably drives him quite mad. But I quite love.
- [13:57]
A
Not to ask a trite question, how did you balance it? But I guess how did you learn to. You didn't know how to balance it in the beginning, and you probably didn't for quite a long time. But how did you start to learn? What were some of the things that changed?
- [14:10]
B
I think I have learned to balance it. What does that word, balance you talk about? What are you talking?
- [14:15]
A
Dumb question.
- [14:17]
B
I mean, I don't think that you do get a balance. I think that you go into having children and trying to balance that with a career and you go into what I call a tunnel, which is for two years, you know, you just don't have any time to do anything other than just survive, really. And somehow you're spat out of it two years later, which is when you might consider having another child, which is madness, but you do. And I think therefore, that tunnel. But you know, if you have three kids is sort of a six, seven, eight year kind of stage, and it's just like you wake up one day, go, whoa, look at me, I've gained two stone and that's exhausted. The house is a mess and all my standards have dropped, but I have hopefully three healthy children. And. And of course, as you get further away from that, you miss that tunnel like mad, you know, so it's a funny thing. And I think, I mean, there's lots of, of serious lessons. It's why I wrote the book, actually, because the point is you never get a balance and it's really hard. And no one's very honest. And I don't think it's very kind to write books going, oh, I did it all. And look at me. It's also easy. It's not easy, it's really hard. And therefore, I think girlfriends need to club together and to share their war stories and how they got through it in a very honest way that makes people feel not a failure when they're not coping. Because you will be quite a lot of the time not coping, I think. And you know, running a business is difficult enough on its own. Running a business and juggling children, young children, no sleep, and all the things that it throws at you is really hard. And there's lots of things I think I sort of feel are important. One is that when you have children, don't expect it to be 150% gain. I remember my father saying to me, you've got to focus on the net gain. The gain is 150, because of course it's glorious. But actually the exhaustion, the cost of this or that is actually the net gain is probably about 40%. So just don't expect to be realistic. And I think you need to, depending on your circumstances and your responsibilities, but you need to, to Treat it like a project. You know, you are taking on this enormous new project which needs help, staffing, timing, you know, you need to get flexibility at work, you need to get flexibility at home and, you know, it needs proper planning. Sometimes you just wonder into having a baby. Whereas actually if you, if you did that acquisition of that new project for work, you would do the due diligence, you would do the planning, you'd have the protocols, you'd have all the, you know, the staffing, you know, you get it all licked. So almost treat it a little bit like that and then expect that you're going to feel, you know, like you're failing quite a lot of time, but it's completely normal. So surround yourself with people who are going through the same thing so that you have a sort of support team which needs to be local, realistically. So there's a million. I mean, the book talks through every single thing of which there are a zillion tips from, you know, trying to manage having a board meeting when your child wants to go out to a nightclub until four in the morning and, you know, with Christmas madness and all those things that are just quite practical tips but, you know, but no such thing as balance.
- [16:52]
A
One of the things I loved was you talking about being at the acupuncturist office and complaining about how tired you were and how fatigued and that the, that he said to you, don't complain. Every single one of these things that you're complaining about are things that you chose.
- [17:05]
B
It was kind of like, wow. It was also helpful advice because what it made me realize is that I love being a bit stretched. You know, I've just accepted another sort of board that I'm going to sit on, you know, this last week. And I know that's one too many. I mean, I mean, my portfolio is full. But, you know, I like, I like being busy. I like giving everything I've got at times. That certain, totally there's a price to that. But you have to realize what you naturally do. If I didn't want, wanted to do all those things, I wouldn't accept them. So actually. So therefore don't complain, really. And I thought that was quite, quite, quite sound advice from the acupuncture.
- [17:39]
A
We talk a little bit about selling the business in 2011 and why that happened and how it felt.
- [17:46]
B
You know, I started business when I was 18 and it had grown and grown and had 65 stores across the world and lots of wholesale accounts and, you know, quite a big team in London and Hong Kong. And Japan and America and so on. And I felt, and I was doing both roles, I was doing the CEO role and I was doing the creative role, both two roles I love. And I felt really in a way that I should probably divide those two roles into one. And so I ended up taking on a CEO and simultaneously actually bringing an investment to the business and selling a chunk of business, not the total business, but a chunk of the business. And fun of that wasn't right for me. Actually. There are lots of reasons that some of which have sort of, you know, sense of reasons to go into, but it, it. I actually realized I like running my own business. And anyway, long story short, we bought the business back in 2019 and it's been really, really fun. I mean, we brought back a bit of a broken business because often businesses that go through those, those stages, you know, there's some sort of fallout. But you know what, the team came back together and we've. And all through Covid and all the things that have been chucked at all of us, but it's actually really exciting. And I think that I'm a great believer in keeping founders in businesses. As often as businesses grow and scale, there's a tendency for founders to either be pushed out or to sort of decide that they think they need to get in the professionals and bring people. And it can often really change the DNA and the core culture of the company. And I think the thing that is prob. Most valuable on a balance sheet of a business is the culture and is the. Is the people. So, you know, keeping that culture and those people and in a way having the founder at the top of the tree and hiring people in that same culture is actually very, very valuable thing. So what's so lovely is I feel we have that culture back in spades. And we're really looking at all the creative touch points of the brand and just really making it exactly what we want, from product through to the creativity through to the mad projects that we do. And it's really exciting actually.
- [19:33]
A
Interesting that it happened right before the pandemic did focus change during the pandemic?
- [19:39]
B
No, actually when we bought it back, my, my clear thinking was that having lots of stores all over the world felt a bit cookie cutter in a way. And I think we as a brand are, you know, I think we're sort of quite an authentic brand, you know, sort of. It's. It's not a. Something that can be replicated and it can, but I think it didn't feel quite right. I also feel it's a more digital world. So we felt quite clearly that if retail is to make sense in a digital world that there has to be a reason to visit. It can't be the same as what you get what you get online. So we dec to open this, this village which is this at the site of my very first store in Pont street in London. We actually have opened six stores and a little cafe which is. We call it the Village rather grandly but where we have all of the folk, all of our products and also we have one shop which we call the Village hall which changes every six weeks. So all the sort of mad creativity that we have there and it's a really lovely hub. So the idea was sort of have that hub, have some stores overseas of course but actually. And of course partners but actually have a really big push digitally. And it felt that that made sense. It's interesting. It's. So that strategy we established pre Covid and actually managed to really engineer quite cleanly through and it's really working. I do think I've slightly changed my mind and I think stores are more important actually and I think that the two things go hand in hand. So you need to have touch points in the markets and that can be wonderful partners or it can be pop ups. But I think you can't just be digital. There's something that's just. Even however good you are at telling the stories, I think you do need to touch things and the touch points and the experience in some ways as well.
- [21:11]
A
I agree. What changed for you at age 50 that gave you the desire to write the book? I'm sure you'd been asked for years and years to write a book.
- [21:19]
B
I think probably post this buyback honestly I felt it was not an easy journey that in all fairness and you know sometimes when businesses become more corporate, which is lucky enough. I've never had to sort of endure. It made me realize a lot about myself. I think I realized that I knew more than I had thought. I realized that as a woman it's very easy to sort of think you need to get the professionals in. In fact the professors, professionals have never risked their own money. They've never started a business, they've never gone all out to kind of bring their team with them over the trenches in difficult times. You know there's. There's a lot that you do when you start a business that is not easy to put on paper but it's actually pretty important. And I realized therefore that actually I was as good as those professionals and sometimes maybe Even better, actually. And I also realized that as a woman you tend to naturally do yourself down the whole time and to, you know, to, to sort of, you know, have that self doubt. And I, I realized that actually at 50, you've just got to. That's ridiculous. And actually, you know, have it there to keep you safe on your shoulder, but actually turn the volume down and just trust yourself because actually, you know, you've got this far. It's sort of okay. So I think I wanted to write a book really to say all of that, but also slightly as if it was, I suppose, focused on my daughter or my girlfriends to sort of say, listen, it's not easy, but that's okay. And this is all the self doubt I have. And everyone has it. And therefore, you know what, we just need to do well in spite of it. And in fact, actually I think, and the reason it's called if in doubt, wash your hair partly because I wanted that word doubt in the title because I think we all think of doubt as a really negative thing. But I think we have to reframe that and realize that doubt is actually the thing that drives us on to be the best version of ourself. So lots of all of that stuff, plus that lovely quote I love, which is from Oscar Wilde, which is be yourself. The other places are taken. And I think that's a really nice thing to think about. As you get a bit older, you realize that actually don't try and be like someone else, just do what you do. And I'm not particularly cool. I'm not too cool actually. And I'm quite an introvert and I, you know, I have close friendships, I don't need too many. You know, you start to work out what works for you and that's, that's really fine. And I think just sharing all those, those thoughts is, I hope, helpful. That was the point of it, really.
- [23:25]
A
It was really helpful. A big part of our listenership is young designers, entrepreneurs. Can you talk about a few parts of it? Triangle of pain, dinner test and maybe the tight rip system.
- [23:37]
B
So triangle the pain is that bit where, for example, I started my business where, you know, it's all exciting. You've got your new business cards and these days your first website, you've got your products, but you're trying to persuade people to make your things. You're placing tiny orders, you're not making the minimum order quantities. You're a painful customer. You're trying to persuade people to buy things. They don't know you, they don't know whether to trust you much easier to sell a well known brand and you're trying to get paid which is really hard as I explained earlier. And those three things are that triangle where I think a lot of businesses are lost, you know, it's no longer exciting. Woohoo. My new business, you're actually in the thick of it where you can spend all day just replacing the toner on the, you know, the photocopier, you know, machine because you know you get the wrong money to try somewhere else. You know, you've just got none of the infrastructure and support. And I talk to a lot of people in that stage and just try. If you can just not give up, that's literally all it takes. Just don't give up. And if you don't give up, you'll succeed because you'll get there somehow. So just get through that. And you do get through that. Trust me. There are times when it's really much easier to give up and it's hard and you're seeing everyone else in great jobs and if you just don't give up at that point you'll win. It's very simple. So I think that's important. Tightropes for me is about communication and it was never more obvious to me than when we bought the business back and it was a bit of a broken business and you know, we had still some of the, the key team there but there was definitely a bit of an exodus and I just decided just to really over communicate. So tell everyone what your goal is, ring the bell when it goes well, bring out the tissues, have a group cry when it doesn't just involve everyone. Have an open town hall every week saying everyone's about this is what we did. Woohoo. We met that, you know, just be really transparent and it's much more fun for people I think to be on the journey. So those tight ropes where you know, it's tight between me and my team and my team and my team in Japan and my team in Hong Kong, you just get everyone really close by. Really makes a difference I think. And what was the third one?
- [25:29]
A
Dinner test. I love the dinner test.
- [25:31]
B
If you decide to take an investment and by the way, remember that investment is a bit of a failure really. Investment means you can't afford to do it yourself. Okay. So obviously you take on investment because you want to grow faster than you can afford with your own funds that you're creating. So fine. It is not a badge of honor. It's not. Woohoo. I've Won an Oscar. I've got investment. Because actually from that point onwards, you are working for someone else, which as an entrepreneur is actually not a good thing. And sometimes you'll have people around your boardroom table saying, I think you're wrong. You need to be doing this. And you know instinctively for your business because you're living it and breathing it every day that that's the wrong thing to do. So you either have to spend hours and hours persuading them that they're wrong and you're right without annoying them, or you have to do it partially their way or completely their way. So investment is. Is painful sometimes. It's necessary, unfortunately. But don't think it's a. It's an objective in its own right. If you do decide to take investment, I suggest the. I'm going to go further than the dinner party test. I'm going to call it the Sunday lunch test. Okay, so we're doing. You enjoy giving up your Sunday lunch, which is your day off and your family table, to have lunch with this person. Would it be fun? Are you aligned? Do you think in the same way? Do you laugh at the same things? Because the fact is that you will set up a business plan. You will have them around your boardroom table once a month discussing how you're doing against the business plan and all the ups and downs in the business. But actually, the business plan will never go to plan, just 100%. It will never run to plan. So therefore, it might be better, it might be faster, it might be slower, it might be worse, it might be a disaster, it might be incredible. Either way, you need people who are aligned with your thinking. It saves a thousand words, it saves all that explaining because they just automatically get it. So if you can, if you don't need an investor, brilliant. If you do apply that Sunday lunch test and think, do they get it? Do I actually. Would I actually go on holiday with them? Do I like them enough? Do they understand? Do they have shared values? It will save a lot of trying to then get everyone up to spend love.
- [27:26]
A
That. One other thing that really resonated with me was your realization that fear equals excitement. That your loathing of public speaking, which I absolutely have. Tell me how that came about and how do you get past that every time? I know you worked with someone to get past it.
- [27:47]
B
Well, and it's funny, there you are doing podcasts and me doing a podcast, hating public speakers.
- [27:52]
A
But this isn't. I never think it's so funny because I'm never nervous in a Podcast never ever. I hate giving a toast. Like I hate, I hate. I mean, obviously I hate giving a speech, but like, I could do this for hours on end. It's just a different thing.
- [28:05]
B
One of the things that, you know, women always have imposter syndrome. They always sort of, you know, they're too harsh on themselves and so on and so forth. And I, I think we need to remember to be as kind to ourselves as we would to a friend or a daughter, you know, in evaluating our performance, because often we're just ridiculously harsh. I think that when you're scared of something. When someone once said to me, they explained that actually, actually fear and excitement are the same emotion. So if you say I'm really scared of flying, you're actually probably quite excited about flying, is the truth. But you just need to understand and you're actually there's a bit of you that kind of is a bit like, you know, this quite fun. So actually I realized that my total, I mean, proper fear of public speaking to the point where I would, you know, have palpitations and I couldn't speak and it was consumed me was actually that, you know, I've realized I actually quite like public speaking, truthfully. But I just, I needed to reframe the fear and excitement. So when you think I'm really scared, actually reframe it. Can I go now? I'm actually really excited. Of course. Course you're scared. You could mess up. So that little gremlin on your shoulder saying, you're going to mess up, you're going to mess up, realize they're there to protect you, turn the volume down a bit because actually you probably won't mess up. And you know, and prepare and be really. When I'm totally prepared for a speech and I know what I'm going to say and I thought about who I'm talking to and I, you know, pretty much worked it all through, sort of seen myself in the room and done the sort of visualization. Actually, I really enjoy it now because actually, you know, what I'm going to say is, I hope interesting. I'll make sure it's not. Not boastful or horrible. I would have worked through all of those things that could trip me up because, you know, that's what we do. But I think it's worth thinking about fear and excitement as actually the same thing and just really putting your head in a slightly different place. And public speaking was that for me, it was utterly terrifying. And I just suddenly thought, you know what? I really believe you can change things that you're, you're scared of, you can sort out. So I decided to seek out someone to help me and I did this thing called neuro linguistic programming, which is a, a type of therapy where they take you through the trauma, which came from the fact that I. I used to sing a lot at school and I once had a terrible performance. And they take you through the trauma, they take it backwards and black and white and you know, it's just a. I mean it's kind of clever what your brain does. It's so simple. But actually it washed away the trauma for me. And you could have said, I'll pay you a million pounds and I wouldn't have been able to do a speech. And now I love it and I'm not great at it, but I can do it. So the fact is you can really apply. Your brain is unbelievably clever. It's a light switch. You can turn it on and you can turn it off and you can, you can, you can get through this, those things. So if you believe you can and you want to, you can and you will.
- [30:24]
A
I also loved what the actors told you to breathe in 10 and imagine and breathe out. Imagining sparkles going all over your body.
- [30:33]
B
Well, it's funny, think about. Breath is so fundamental and you know, you do a little bit in yoga, but you know, breath is absolutely everything. And if you want to calm yourself down, the first thing you should do is exhale. That actually completely calms down your central nervous system. So the first thing you do when you get on a massage table or you get onto a plane, you finally made it onto plane, you've done it, everything you need to do. Or you lie on a sunbed the first day of your holiday, the first thing you do is you go, you know, that's the first thing you exhale. So actually if you want to calm yourself down, exhaling, breathing out is really important and you learn you can really control your emotion and your fear through breath. So I learned a lot about that out of necessity. So I wrote about it in the book.
- [31:10]
A
I loved how organization has been so fundamental to your mental health and that he said that I would label my children if I could. What's the top organizational tip you could give to people with overwhelm at work?
- [31:24]
B
I work on a Sunday, I'm ashamed to say, but I have a very busy life work wise and I have a lot of children. So I tend to use Sunday evening slightly becoming after Sunday lunch, truthfully, but to clear all the things from my inbox that I didn't manage to get through last week. I need to close it down on Friday night. I'm too tired, need a glass of wine, I'm done. But actually Sunday after lunch, I'm like, okay, back to it. And I've got time to read those things people sent me that I didn't have a chance to do a deep dive into. I clear all those things that needed four different answers and I need to speak to that person for, you know, all those things you can't just clear in a second. I look ahead and flush through the week ahead and the months. I just think, birthday presents, travel, have I told the child I won't be there, all that sort of stuff to get ahead. I hate that feeling when you get somewhere and you haven't realized that you've forgotten to tell a child you won't be there. Sports day because you've got a business meeting or you've got a birthday coming or you're going to dinner, you haven't thought about the present or you haven't worked out what you want to wear. And actually that's going in the drag case. I hate that being caught on the hop. I find that incredibly stressful. And it's, you know, I wish I didn't, but I do. So therefore being organized and being ahead just makes me feel good. I like that feeling. So I use Sunday to do all of that. That's unfortunately central to my, my life. But that's because my life is very full. I don't recommend everyone works at their weekends at all, but you find it might be that you block out your, your Friday afternoon to do that and you find your methods that you. That work for you. Everyone's different. I'm an organizational nut. I literally start study to do systems. I love looking at different ways of being organized. And I'm obviously not that good because I tend to work very hard. So I haven't nailed it. So much so that I can delegate it to someone else, but I have no way out other than just making lists, being organized, communicating a lot in advance. I used to have a big huge blackboard painted wall in the kitchen for the kids. You know, ballet bag and sports bag and don't forget your packed lunch. And just to make sure that, you know, you communicate like Matt. So it's the only way I can run life, I'm afraid. It's really sad and not very sexy, but it's just how I am.
- [33:19]
A
I definitely know you didn't have a prom at the Catholic school at the convent. But did you have some sort of marquee event? Like, did you?
- [33:26]
B
Yes, I do. So I remember getting there was this thing called the Feathers Ball, which was the kind of the big, like, party at 16 or 17, whatever it was. And I remember my mother wanted to put me this taffeta tartan dress. It was absolutely beautiful, but to get some black net underneath and to shorten the front of the taffeta, so the black neck stuck out a bit punk, like. And I had these shoes that were from. I remember them vividly, that were red with a high heel and with like a sort of zigzag sort of front. Like, the sort of. The cut around the foot was all a sort of zigzag. So it was actually quite punk. And I had quite short cropped hair with spikes at the front. And I, against my mother's witches, had some highlights put in, which meant that we didn't speak to each other for a week. So that was, yeah, my prom dress, if that's.
- [34:09]
A
I love it. It sounds really chic. Thank you, Anya.
- [34:12]
B
Thank you for having me today.
- [34:14]
A
What We Wore is produced by Capitol and Balto Creative Media. The original song Someone so Enchanting was composed and performed by Brit Drazda. Please follow us on Instagram whatwear podcast for additional content and show updates. Queencitypodcastnetwork.com.