B (2:17)

You know, you have to be very adaptable. And it worked for me. It worked to. To. To my advantage because, yeah, I mean, I can enter any kind of, like, settings and kind of, like, find my way. I mean, as a kid, I don't have any bad memories of it, you know, strangely, I mean, uprooted and you, you know, you follow, because that's all, you know. You know, what are you going to do? Do I leave your parents when you're like 6 years old, 9 years old, 12? No, it's like. It's Every like it was like a fact of life. And luckily our father would, you know, and my parents would like, you know, explain to us where we would be going. And they were trying to like, familiarize us with like, where we would be landing, what the town would be about, etc. And they were always trying to do it during summer vacation so that at least we were not. It only happened, I said once, where it was like in the middle of the school year. That's more complicated because you arrive and you like, as they call it, the new one. I think it has worked well for me because when I moved to New York, I just moved there, picked up and left.

A (3:32)

But it also strikes me too kind of as you do in your business, I think just the discovery of new things. I think that you're such a discoverer, I think, I mean, you always have been and you've always been so excited about new things and interesting things. And I do think that's kind of innate. I mean, you're either positive like that or you're not maybe. Do you have siblings or your siblings the same way?

B (3:55)

I'm the oldest of five.

A (3:57)

Oh my God. Really?

B (3:58)

Yeah. I'm the oldest of five.

A (4:00)

Wow.

B (4:00)

So it's me two sisters and we were all in like quick succession, you know, within three years. The stair steps. Yeah. And then, then my first brother is nine years younger than me. The youngest one is 15 younger than me.

A (4:17)

Wow.

B (4:17)

So there's like 15 years between, you know, a 15 year span between all of us. So actually we had kind of like maybe some different experiences because as my father, you know, is his career progressed, you know, the, the length of time you would be staying in one place was longer.

A (4:35)

Yeah.

B (4:36)

So it was like a little bit different. My mother was one of eight.

A (4:39)

I was going to ask what your first fashion memory is, but I would imagine it's your mom making clothes because there's no way you can. Or hand me downs because you can't really clothe all those people.

B (4:49)

I'm quite sure about that. I think it was probably shopping with my mother, but shopping for myself.

A (4:56)

Yeah.

B (4:57)

You know, and I was like quite decisive about what I wanted to wear or not to wear.

A (5:05)

Yeah, me too.

B (5:06)

So that's probably like, you know, what started me. I mean, the, the, the first things. Yeah. But it was also looking. I mean, I guess I really started to get interested in fashion like when I was like 14, 15, 16, when you start, you know, it was like the beginning, like the big music videos and all of that. And you know, you would try to emulate what you were seeing.

A (5:32)

And I think you and I are the same age. I think I'm older a little bit, Tiny bit. When did you start to focus your studies on design and fashion architecture?

B (5:43)

I mean, the French system is quite different from the American one because in the US And I'm seeing that with my kids now also my wife has a different way of looking at these things than I do. Because in France, you kind of like, the system is such. It's like, it's a funnel. And you kind of like have to decide what it is that you want to be doing early on because you applying to schools, at least the top schools, they like, you do either engineering or you do business or you do law. But it's, you know, that early on, right after, you know, back at basically the end of high school, wherever you go from there is where you're going to be or should be. Yeah, it's like the early 80s and I started really, like, some reason, reading like, you know, fashion magazines or whatever and became really kind of like, not obsessed, but, yeah, really interested in it. And, you know, it's like my entire bedroom or whatever was like pictures of like, you know, whatever. It's like the, you know, the early. The early years, you know, advertising with. When Carl just started at Chanel and that was like all the things and I was interested in that. Advertising was becoming a very big thing in France. It was like. It was like the. The fashionable thing to do was like to look into an advertising career. And then I was always very interested in, like, architecture. And there was a moment where I was like, okay, what am I going to. What am I going to pursue? Do I want to pursue architecture or do I want to pursue fashion? And in a way, business and the career in architecture looked interesting, but highly, you know, you can succeed or not. And I was like, although I had a very nice upbringing and childhood and everything, my parents didn't have a lot of money, especially with five.

A (7:44)

With five kids.

B (7:45)

And you know, quite frankly, I was driven by like, achieving a certain level of comfort and, yeah, freedom and all of that. So I was like, architecture, yeah, that could be interesting, but that could be like, you know, I could be like a starving artist for a very long time.

A (8:02)

I'm married to one.

B (8:06)

Some very beautiful things. Perry did some beautiful, beautiful things. I decided to take the pass of like, you know, I was. I had like, really good results in school or whatever. And I went like. I followed that kind of like, course of like doing, you know, business and graduating in international marketing. And.

A (8:24)

But Christoph, at this time, did you know anybody in advertising or fashion or anything? No one. And so no support from anybody in your community?

B (8:33)

No. 0, 0. But knew what I wanted, what kind of school I wanted to go to. It was like, very competitive. You know, what we call business school, which is the equivalent of like, you know, BA from one of, from one of the IVs. And so. And you go through that with competitive exams. And so, you know, I did that, got into the school. And then the minute I was in the school, you have to do a lot of like outside school stuff, like, you know, internships and surveys and all that. And I did everything in the fashion.

A (9:10)

World, so just connected from the beginning.

B (9:12)

And from the beginning I was like, you know, and like, step by step, I started to build like a little, you know, network of, you know, people in that world. And that's kind of like the circles I was trying to enter.

A (9:25)

Then you had, you had a degree in fashion and then you went to business school after.

B (9:29)

No, I don't have a degree in fashion. I have a degree in international marketing. It could, I could be working for like a soap company right now.

A (9:38)

Wow.

B (9:38)

You know, and actually the reason why I'm not working for a soap company is like, I. I wanted do an internship at l'. Oreal and they really did not like me.

A (9:49)

So what was your first job out of, out of school?

B (9:52)

First job out of school is I started to work for a small, you know, couture house called Jacques. And I think, unfortunately the house has closed since. But it had been started in the 50s and the name was famous because Jacques Esterel did two things that people remember. The first thing is like the wedding dress of Brigitte Bardot.

A (10:23)

Wow.

B (10:24)

The famous Vichy dress. So that was Jacques Terrell and it launched his career. And then he did, in the late 60s, he did. He came up with the UNICEX concept. But by the time I joined, so it's in the fall of 87, the house had been through like, you know, several changes. And someone who was actually the husband of one of my best friends was bought the house. And I started, you know, I. He interviewed me and hired me. And I had, on the first day, you know, I was supposed to. There was, you know, there was like the head office on up the street from the Bristol Hotel. And then we had three shops, two in Paris and one in Bordeaux. And first day on the job, so I go to the head office to sign the. All the paperwork and all that. And I had Been hired as the manager of the flagship store on plaza luto. I'm 22. I know absolutely nothing. I've never worked a day in my life. The last internship I had done was actually in the buying office at Printon. I was there for three years, three months. It was great experience. And I'm there. And so my boss and in a way, mentor, Jean Michel, is like, okay, so we signed the paperwork, we discussed whatever friend. He's like, okay, I'm going to take you to the store. And so we go and we pick up his car. At the time, he had like, a very fancy, kind of like BMW convertible. It's a beautiful date. September in Paris. A wonderful day. And then the drive from where we picked up his car to the store was about 15 minutes in the. 15 minutes in the beautiful sun in Paris and, you know, in the convertible. He explains to me that he's going to introduce me to the team at the store. But there's a big problem.

A (12:54)

Oh, God.

B (12:55)

The current manager of the store, who I'm gonna, like, be our superior. I've been hired on top of her and the top salesperson. They don't like each other, they don't get along. It's a big mess. And within a month, I'm gonna have to choose one. One or the other who I'm keeping.

A (13:19)

Were you like, oh, my God.

B (13:20)

Okay, So I arrived there. You can imagine the face of the manager who's not becoming like an assistant manager and. And the top salesperson. It's a small store. I mean, you know, it's like 2500 square feet. It's a beautiful storm place of it. Two level. It's an old townhouse. It's really. It's really quite beautiful place. And with a courtyard and everything. It's lovely. And. But I arrive and the team is like, really not happy to see me, right? But within a month, they were both gone. I mean, clearly, you know, the one who would. Was demoted in a way, you know, she could not even, like, look at me. And the other one was really crazy. She was a great salesperson. Absolutely crazy. So that was that. But that was like, all about talking about baptism by fire.

A (14:12)

You think about, you know, Pierre Berger with Yves Saint Laurent. And like, I guess there is this history of business managers or people, you know, the business people coming in and running the business with the creative people. Was that something. I mean, was that kind of where you fit into it? I mean, did you. Did you come into the business and say, like, this is being run all wrong?

B (14:34)

Yes and no. I mean, it took me a few years to. To get to that point. And then at that point I left, you know, from, from like managing store. I became really involved. And you know, because we had our own lines of products, but then we're also buying third party. And I was really in charge of that for the three stores. And it was fun and interesting. And I was like with Marcel license, we were one of the two stores who basically sponsored Paul Smith. You know, in the beginning of Paul Smith in the. In France, it was a lot of fun.

A (15:05)

And was this also the renaissance of great department stores and also specialty stores at that time?

B (15:12)

You know, the stores were really dominated. I mean, in Paris was dominated by like you had like the massive, you know, stores. Saint Maritime was still existing, but it was kind of like on its luck. The Beaumarchais was not what it is. What it is. It was barely a blip. But you had like phenomenal stores. One actually tried to hire me. We had like old England. It was like a temple to like all things British.

A (15:44)

And was that sort of the, like your understanding of the power of especially a store, meaning a store that has things from all over the world? Because that kind of wasn't. That sort of was a new idea.

B (15:57)

Yeah. I mean, you had. In Paris at the time, you had Victoire, who was very different from where Victoria is today. But Victoire was like this magical place. And it was on place of Victoire.

A (16:11)

Yeah.

B (16:11)

So it was like caddy corner from the store I was running. You know, Place de Victoire at the time was like kind of like the center of like fashion in Paris because that's where Kenzo had his flagship store. You had Mugler, you had Montana. Yeah, Montana. Yoshi, Comme des Garcons. They were all down the street on retail. Marcel.

A (16:33)

Wow.

B (16:35)

And Jean Paul Gaultier was around the corner on Garrison. So that side of Paris was like ebullient with fashion. Victoire was the only one who was like a multi brand. It was kind of like this thing where like no men pretty much would be able to enter because it was like this. Not a big store, but it was kind of like a salon. And women would go in there to shop. And Francois Chassegnac, who was like the. The kind of like the soul of. Of Victoire would pick things from like everywhere. Different places, different price points or whatever. And the woman would go in there and basically like a little bit like that famous store in Brazil. Men were actually barred.

A (17:19)

Yeah.

B (17:20)

It was not. They Were not barred in Victoria. But you wouldn't go there because basically, just like, very freely, like, dressing, undress and just like, play.

A (17:28)

Yeah, but it was.

B (17:30)

So Victor was there, and then the other place, you had Victoire, and then you had Mariana. Maria Luisa started right around that time. She was, you know, she had the Manolas, very strong voice. Very, very powerful. She was a strong woman.

A (17:49)

She was.

B (17:50)

And she had, like, a passion and a vigor and, you know, in a.

A (17:55)

Kind of like, in a point of view. A real point of view.

B (17:57)

Strong point of view. Real point of view.

A (17:59)

Yeah.

B (18:00)

But that's where I believe I'm not mistaken saying she was the first one to buy John Galliano.

A (18:05)

But, you know, Manola.

B (18:06)

And then at Printon, you had corner of that crater where my very, very, very close friend of mine was running it, and we ended up doing things together.

A (18:18)

This is such an exciting time. How did you leave Paris?

B (18:23)

Well, you know, basically what happens is, like, I'm still in my job three years later.

A (18:28)

You fired the manager and the head salesperson.

B (18:31)

Yeah, yeah. Yes. You know, we have sold the retail stores at that point. And the person I was working for, who I adored, kind of like, didn't stick to a strategy. It was kind of like changing ideas every five minutes. And I had become exhausted of it. I had gone to New York a couple of times after graduation, and I had loved New York in the second, and not only for the first, second trip. What I had just bought a this man at the time. And I'm walking down Broadway listening to music, and I'm like, this feels so right that you have to live here. And so I'm back from Christmas vacation. I think it's January 91, and I'm sitting at my desk on Football center, and I'm like, I'm done. I'm done. And so I resigned. You know, you, I couldn't just, like, you know, up and leave, because in France, you when, when you resign in a position of management position, you cannot just, like, just go like that. So I, I, I owed some sometimes the company so I could leave late April. I, I had some vacation left. I needed to go to Japan to finish a project, and then I had some vacation left. I asked if I could take the days of vacation. I was like, yeah. And so I came to New York to make sure that's what I wanted to try and do. And I decided it was the right thing. And May 17, 1991, I arrived in New York with three suitcases and no job. No job.

A (20:20)

And so what did you do?

B (20:22)

No job. I had sent a whole bunch of like, you know, letters to like, all America, to all the American brands I could think of. And they were not present in Europe saying, you know, how about you hire me and I do stuff for you? You know, Everybody answered very politely, but there was no bites. So I came and I knew a couple of people in the city and in the. In the business in particular, someone was running the. The branch of the French consulate, looking after, you know, business. French businesses here. And I came with a vague idea of what I wanted to do and basically what I. What ended up happening. I talked to like, three designers, young designers I was close to in France, and opened a first kind of like showroom.

A (21:22)

And what was it called?

B (21:23)

It's called Riftoire Agency.

A (21:27)

I love it. Okay.

B (21:28)

I had taken a loft in Chelsea. And so it was like the one bedroom and then the loft and was where I would show collections. That lasted about six months. I went bankrupt very quickly.

A (21:41)

You didn't understand the model.

B (21:43)

Yeah. And it was just like, you know, it was like I knew. No, I knew nobody. I didn't know any stores I didn't do. But I managed to sell a few things. You know, I will. You know, I met, you know, the buying offices. I met, you know, at the time there was someone called Jean Butterfield who was, you know, working with a few stores. I met Catherine Ditline. Yeah, I met the people at Barn. And you know, I had done for, I mean, some of these young designers that I had brought. I knew because I had helped them, you know, kind of like on the side in Paris. And so. And they were doing like, trade shows. And I was friends with like, the person who was producing Atmosphere trade show in Paris where the time was like the trade show. And I was quite close to her. So I had like some. Some links and some, you know, so I'd met some people. I knew the people at Charivari and there's the people that some people at Barney's. So I sold these collections to a few stores, but the collection that I sold, the best. The designer in question didn't have the money to send me his collection the second season. So I shoot first season we made order. So it was like haphazard.

A (22:56)

And what did it feel like to fail?

B (22:58)

It was not good. Was kind of scary because I failed. I ran out of money and luckily I had some good friends. And then I started, you know, kind of like living at friends apart on friends couches. That's lasted for a while.

A (23:15)

Yeah.

B (23:16)

And I started doing like some freelance job. Freelance work.

A (23:19)

And what did you learn in doing that that you had been doing wrong?

B (23:22)

That, you know, you need to make sure that people sign a contract? No, it wasn't even signing contracts. It was about making sure that they had the wherewithal to stay the course.

A (23:35)

And how do you know that? You don't really know that. You just have to trust.

B (23:39)

But, you know, you. You know, granted, I've made many more mistakes since, but, you know, you kind of like step by step, you. You get it. And also, you need to understand it's. It's more than just like, you know, making collections here. And, you know, at the time, there was no, you know, you were not communicating. You know, you had to call people yet to, you know, it's a whole different ballgame.

A (24:05)

So did you consider doing something different or did you want to stay in the industry and you thought there's a way to do this?

B (24:10)

Well, the industry was the industry that I wanted to be.

A (24:12)

Yeah.

B (24:13)

So it was never. And by that, by that time, I knew enough people. You know, I was friends with, like, you know, really people who were make. Starting to make their mark in. In the industry. I mean, I was friends with the people at a show called CDDC in Paris. You know, that was, you know, they were representing at the time. Etc. So, you know, I started to have like a real network of things. And it felt. It was like my neutral. It was my fashion was my passion. It was a time where it's like what was happening then was really exciting.

A (24:48)

Yeah.

B (24:49)

It was the same point, you know, the. The Japanese in Paris and Lucy and all that. And, you know, these fashion shows were great. It was like you always found a way to, like, you know, sneak in. It was like, it was fun.

A (25:05)

It was a brilliant and it was accessible. I mean, I think that's. Yeah, yeah.

B (25:10)

It was not the corporate world monster that it become now. It was, you know, there was no pre collection, none of that. Just like pure, you know, it was like a pure expression of like, the passion. You know, it's like it was true in Paris. I mean, you remember in New York at the time, you have Steven Sprouse. Yeah. You know, it was different. It felt different. So I knew I wanted to stay in the business. I knew I already started to meet people here and, you know, and most and foremost, I was kind of like a very proud person. I was not coming back to Paris defeated and deflated. That was not in the car, no matter what I would say.

A (25:54)

And while you're sort of freelancing at these other showrooms. Are you the whole time thinking that I'm gonna build this again and here's how I'm gonna do it differently because I can do it better.

B (26:05)

Actually. I found one showroom that, you know, that kind of like semi hired me and the deal was like I would work on the collection, I would help with the collection on the show. And also in lieu of salary, I could show some things on my own.

A (26:23)

Okay.

B (26:24)

Within umbrella. So that's what happened when that dissolved in. So that I started that in 92, 93. And that ran its course for like two or three years. And the things we worked on at the time was like Jean Colonna was a collection and we had gotten there was like that two year period during which Conde Garcon shirt was under license and we got the representation of that and it was fantastic.

A (26:59)

Will you explain to the listeners sort of what a showroom is? Because I think one of the things that does make you. The reason you're so valuable and important in this industry is because you also are a merchandiser. You have great design sense. You can, you're such a great advisor to designers, which I don't think that's maybe common.

B (27:20)

The show basically is a place where, you know, we have, we show collections that we know that we partner with and our role is to introduce these collections and find and organize a distribution here. So finding the stores that are going to be, you know, buying this collection and representing these collections. What makes it interesting for me, I mean it's like, you know, although I don't necessarily think it's a word which is like used a little bit too much. But we are, I'm a curator of. Of sorts. So the challenge is to have collections that are. Address a certain type of customers. And when you put them all together within the multi, the multi branch showroom space, they have to speak kind of like, you know, they have to be copacetic with one and one with the other and also not. They cannot compete.

A (28:27)

Yeah, yeah.

B (28:29)

So that's pretty much what what we do. And the challenge is to find, you know, learning what we've learned over the years. Collections that will, you know, stand. Stand the test of time, you know, able to. Where, where the sourcing is well organized, where the finances are in place, where, you know, all of these things. And then where we help them is that we make sure that they are priced correctly, that they are, that they have, that the assortment makes sense for the American sensibility, which is quite different.

A (29:11)

From Other countries, back to starting the second iteration or the first iteration of CD Network. Tell me, what were the most important lessons that you learned from the failure and from the freelancing in the other places?

B (29:23)

Well, apart from like, you know, the logistics and all of that stuff, I think at the end of the day, the most important thing, it's like, it's a people's business.

A (29:31)

Yeah.

B (29:31)

You know.

A (29:32)

Yeah.

B (29:32)

And you have to. You are only as valuable as your relationships.

A (29:38)

Yep.

B (29:39)

I mean, obviously, you know, the fact that I believe I've shown a good eye, a certain taste, and all of that is super important above everything else. It's like, you know, knowing people, listening to people, understanding what they need, what they like, what they are ready for. Sometimes, you know, you know, because sometimes I've been way too early and stuff. That's it. You know, it's like, for me, it's all about the relationships.

A (30:09)

And did you start traveling around the US to, I mean, because I think part of that, I mean, you have the knowledge to say to these European brands, I know every store in the US where you need to be. Because it is, it is a different world.

B (30:23)

Yes. I mean, I've traveled extensively and I try to keep doing it, you know, it's not always easy because that's also one thing that, you know, European partners need to understand. This is a very big country, no joke. Takes as long as much time to go to LA than to go to London from here. I think one of the beautiful things about what we do is like discovery. Discovery and surprise, you know, discovery and be able to surprise people.

A (30:57)

Yeah.

B (30:57)

And that's way more difficult to do. And it's one of my biggest worry for the generations which are growing up right now. It's like how to instill in them surprise, you know, the, and, and, and, and, and the way to, to wait for something to desire.

A (31:18)

Yeah. And delight.

B (31:21)

How do we install, how do we instill desire in those kids that we are, you know, raising? Because everything is available at the tip of their finger.

A (31:29)

Was there a particular designer that changed the course of your business?

B (31:33)

Okay. Yeah. I mean, there's like, moments, there's been certainly times where, you know, was very important to me originally. Jean Paulina, certainly. And he's still a dear friend, but the one designer slash brand that has been an incredible story for me. And for me, my biggest success, quote, unquote, is Golden Loops. Yeah.

A (32:04)

And I can speak with authority on it too, because, I mean, you know, we carried it from day one and we carried the clothes more than Anything, you know, the bags and the clothes and when people were like, what is this? What is this? For years. Years.

B (32:18)

Yeah.

A (32:19)

And then. And then we sort of dabbled in the shoes. But it's such a fascinating thing. Did you know Kristoff from the beginning that it was special? I know you knew the designers were special. It's a husband and wife, right?

B (32:30)

Yes. They are from Venice. They are from, you know, like, a really good, you know, background. But they studied very humbly, you know, on the back of their cars doing this. They were going from, like, stores that they knew driving their car and, like, showing stuff which was, like, pretty much, you know, almost Pontomora. It was like they were selling what they had. But they had, like, an incredible sensibility and understanding of, like, fabrics and details and a love of, like, craft. And so, you know, I met them through a friend of mine and fell in love with the them and what they were portraying and, you know, all the aura around them. And one thing led to the next, and we started working together in 2003. And originally we only worked in New York with two things, which are like the. The cowboy boots that they had started at the time.

A (33:37)

I still have my originals.

B (33:39)

Originally, people could not understand what the hell that was.

A (33:42)

No.

B (33:43)

And there was, like, a little T shirt playing series they were doing, and we were showing the. The actual clothes ready to wear only. Only in Paris at the time. And. But what changed everything for them was, like, 2010, when they launched the sneakers, and then it became like, a thing like in 2014, you know, they were. They got investment for private equity, and then the rest is history. And Today it's a $750 million company.

A (34:13)

That's unbelievable.

B (34:15)

We have 58 or 59 stores in North America. So they left the agency in 2019 with taking five of my people, not Caroline. And. And I've remained. And I'm still to date, kind of like honorary chairman of North America. So I'm still associated with the story.

A (34:37)

That's amazing.

B (34:38)

I have to say, the. The leader of the brand, I mean, Alexander and Francesca exited the brand still on the board, but they exited the brand a few years ago. But the leader and the person who's been driving the growth and the visionary behind the expansion of Golden Goose is Silvio Campera. Was an incredible. I mean, he's one of a kind, and I've worked with many, many brands over the years with many, many people, is a unique leader.

A (35:13)

Tell me, what are the biggest lessons you learned from. From that experience?

B (35:17)

We. We came up with, like, Solutions to problems. You know, it's like how to be creative on the, you know, on, on, you know, because with no money. Yeah. And you know, the boots, you know, we were basically how to manage scarcity, you know, and how to make. How to make scarcity a tool, a winning tool.

A (35:41)

Yeah.

B (35:43)

We were I believe the first brands to come up with never on sale concepts.

A (35:48)

Yeah.

B (35:49)

Because yeah.

A (35:51)

They're, you know, one of a kind.

B (35:53)

They were one of a kind and they were like hand. They were shipped on time.

A (35:57)

Yeah.

B (35:58)

But when people got the product they would sell it full price and it was pretty much a guaranteed sell through.

A (36:06)

Yeah. And it's not seasonal. It's just, it's. You're in love with it or you're not.

B (36:09)

So you know, got everyone, including the big department store that we were trying. We were starting to sell to at the time to agree to not put the product on sale and not complain and not call about the product is late, we need a discount. It was like that was not a conversation. I also through Golden. I like kind of like a culture of like innovation and curiosity, you know, because like doing different things, you know, trying to like address things in like in a creative way. And. And I learned the power of retail.

A (36:44)

Yeah.

B (36:45)

In direct retail because it's incredible.

A (36:49)

Yeah. We've spoken with a lot of women about becoming mothers in the middle of their careers and I want to talk to you a little bit about that and about. You're married to an American woman who I think is a book editor. Did I make that up?

B (37:01)

Yeah. She was a book editor by trade.

A (37:03)

Yeah.

B (37:03)

She mostly my, you know, my right and left hand all things admin and hr.

A (37:14)

Love it.

B (37:14)

You know. Yeah.

A (37:15)

But tell me about raising children in America and how that was different and what you were surprised by.

B (37:21)

Well, I have two athletes.

A (37:24)

Yeah.

B (37:25)

You know, was suddenly not part of my upbringing or any one of us actually the five of us, my sisters or my brothers, we not. So you know, that, that was. And that was like really from the very beginning. It was very important in our family and for my wife that would. That would be competent swimmers by the age of three, you know, like all of these things. And that's very different. So there's that, you know, adapting also to like the indiosyncrasies of like the American education system.

A (38:02)

Yeah.

B (38:03)

Which is again I was feeling earlier very different. And also my kids went to, I mean Luke went to the. All the way through middle school, then he went to boarding school for high school. And Josephine hated the Lise. So we took her out when she was 7. And so she's been in the, you know, completely American system ever since.

A (38:24)

And how's her French? Okay.

B (38:26)

Her French is good now. I mean, you know, at first she was anti, you know, she's someone who needs to feel very competent about things and she felt that her French was not sure she would choose not to speak it. So, you know, there's that and then, you know, it's like not only in America, not only American kids, but they also like New York, Manhattan kids, but they're also super well traveled. I mean, you know, they've. They've grown up in a very different way than I did.

A (38:54)

Yeah. Tell me, what have been your biggest challenges over the last 25 years with CD Network? I was involved in one of them. The recession.

B (39:03)

The recession was one. Yes. 2008 was not easy.

A (39:08)

You were really such a leader in that and that you really taught me how it could be done with, you know, a gentleman's agreement. But really, like, I think that to have that human contact and connection with you to, to tell you what was going on in our business and our city, to be able to communicate with you clearly and often really got us through the recession and also just taught me how to do it with all the other vendors.

B (39:34)

I think the most important thing is that communication always, you know, and be upfront about, you know, we all have challenges and, you know, all businesses, you know, go through ups and downs. And the important thing is to have like the, the vision of what it's going to be like on the other side and to stay the course and to be upfront and honest. You know, it's like I had, I mean, the biggest challenges for me has been like, to manage the growth at times, to manage expectations really, from brands and the changing, the changing nature of what we do. Yeah, certainly. I mean, you know, I've had my financial challenges like everybody else. I mean, you know, when we started, when I started Citi Network, we financed it with my, my not yet wife credit cards. She showed a lot of face to.

A (40:37)

Me.

B (40:39)

A lot of facing me. I hope she, she doesn't regret it, but. Because I'm still, you know, my crazy self, but, you know, it's like suddenly like managing, you know, when you have to like, take like really hard decisions by, you know, letting go of people or whatever, that's always the hardest. Yeah, you know, that's probably like the most difficult things. I've been lucky then like through the, you know, recession in 2008 is when I, I Signed a lease for a new showroom in 2009. I kind of like the same thing at the exit of COVID you know, so I think, you know, trying to like, look at like these difficult times also as times of opportunity.

A (41:28)

You have always done that. I do know that about you. But I love the idea of always having that vision of what it's going to look like on the other side and what you're working towards, because I think people can, especially entrepreneurs can lose that.

B (41:41)

Yeah. And at times it's not easy and it's not obvious.

A (41:46)

What are the changes that you'd like to see in the industry over the next decade? We were wishing things would change during the pandemic and they really didn't.

B (41:54)

Yeah, and I'm about to. To talk about that because that's the thing. I mean, and I think they are all touching on it in a way, but no one is really. I mean, no one is really acting upon it. And it's hard. I mean, it's really hard because you feel that you're on that these cycles and if you get out of the cycle, then all of a sudden you are you still relevant. So certainly, you know, during the pandemic there was like all this debate about slowing down, being more exact and to be more. Not do things gratuitously, you know, not put out product for the sake of putting out product because you need cash flow. That obviously has gone out the window completely. We back into like that silly cycle. But I think the world out there is telling us it's not working. I don't know if you, you know, caught some of the business of fashion voices, but when they did that segment on don't remember which country it is, it's Nigeria, we have this amount this in fathomable amounts of like product like discarded piles and mountains of textiles that have no reason to be. And they are destroying the lives of these people and we don't know what to do with them. And when you hear about. And I don't know if this practices still happen of like, you know, luxury brands, like burning stuff, it's like enough.

A (43:43)

Oh my God, you know.

B (43:44)

And I think the consumers also in a way telling us that in some places anyway. And I think it's part of our responsibility to not try and show too much. You know, it's like, let's be more. That's, you know, what I relish about the time of when I started this business. It was a time of pure creation. The time of there was like a freedom and a joy about what we didn't put out there. And I think. And fashion should be about that. Should be about that sense of joy, because we can all find stuff to put on our backs, so it's not difficult. But you want things that are going to be meaningful, that are going to be. That are going to have an intrinsic quality where, you know, that the people who made them, you know, were able to eat and sleep in a proper place, you know.

A (44:44)

Yeah.

B (44:44)

Like basic things, but which are, you know. And quite a few of the collections we work with now only show twice a year. And I'm like, thank you. Good for you. It's like, I mean, are you on your way to Paris next week?

A (45:01)

Milan?

B (45:02)

Yeah. What I mean, it's like. And you'll be on your way again at the end of January.

A (45:06)

Yep. Then in March, you know, and it's.

B (45:10)

Like at some point, it's like, really. I know, number one, it's like trying to find some sort of balance and balancing all of, you know, balance in our. In all our lives. You know, the people who are in the industry. I think we also want some balance. You know, I. I'd like to have, like, more time to go visit stores around the US but. Or spend time. More time. You know, it's like all the, all the, all the brands you work with are like, oh, come see us in the factory. And like, I love to, but I don't know when. You know, I'm starting a new project right now in, In Portugal. I went to them. I left in the morning in Paris, came back the same night. I never saw the town.

A (45:55)

Yeah.

B (45:55)

I never saw anything. It's like, so, you know, for my whole personal sanity, during each trip, at least, I try to. At least one museum. That's like a rule in this.

A (46:04)

Me too. Yeah.

B (46:06)

Because that brings me joy. I'm happy to be in a museum and look at beautiful things and. But so, you know, it's like, you know, kind of like slowing down. I think the new generation, the. Is responsible for that. I think there's a return to a sense they want truth in this thing that they buy and then the thing that they choose to put on themselves. It's a generation that's been so, you know, they were born with, you know, the phones and all that. They were born with, like, being bombarded of stuff. When they buy things they don't want to be marketed to. Case I looked at my son or my daughter, they don't want to be. You know, they are. It's very hard to cheat them yeah.

A (46:56)

They'Re major vintage shoppers. I mean, that's the only thing my daughter wants to do. It's something they discovered without somebody marketing it towards them. Yeah, they.

B (47:03)

In your. To marketing.

A (47:05)

And do you think about that in your business? I mean, do you, do you worry about that?

B (47:08)

No, because I think we try to, you know, I mean, there's very, very few of the things that we do which are like, really mass market or really like, you know, we, we do have mostly, you know, we are, you know, we're in a niche market with niche brands, most of it. So. And I try. We try to work with brands which have, like, you know, stand for something that's quality, you know, the quality to the product that we sell. So I feel fairly okay because we are not into the big machines. I don't have.

A (47:42)

You've never been?

B (47:43)

No.

A (47:43)

What do you hope that your impact has been on the fashion industry?

B (47:46)

I hope I brought new and interesting things to people. You did, you know, that I help some brands to, you know, flourish. Not to go back. Not to. But with Golden Goose, you know, I mean, the company now has like thousands of employees around the world. But when I go to headquarter in Milan, where I go like regularly, there's always new faces and everybody knows where I am.

A (48:16)

Yeah.

B (48:17)

And that is, you know, means something.

A (48:27)

Okay. Southwest of France, did you have a prom?

B (48:33)

No.

A (48:34)

Did you have. In the UK they call it a marquee event. Did you have like a graduation promise party or something?

B (48:40)

No, it's not.

A (48:42)

It's not done. No celebrating, it's not part of the culture.

B (48:46)

I think maybe now they starting to, like, do things and, you know, you like. But it was not when I was young. It was not at all. Not even when I graduated from, from college. There's no, like, big ceremony and.

A (49:03)

Do you have a favorite, favorite thing in your closet? Something you've had a long time that you still keep?

B (49:09)

Yes, I have a coat from Arnis, which was one of the brands I've first worked with, you know, in like late 96, I think. And it's a cashmere coat, like, you know, and I still wear it.

A (49:28)

You still wear it?

B (49:29)

Yeah, I, I had the, the lining redone years ago and with. Actually it's redone with the shirt fabric that some. That Thomas Mason, the people at Thomas Mason had given me, like a vintage fabric and so. And that coat is still as good today as it was.

A (49:50)

I love that I always have fun conversations with you. I love talking to you. I love being with you. And I appreciate you so much. I hope that you know that.

B (49:57)

Thank you. Thank you. You know, I feel, you know, like seeing, you know, I think there's, like, a few of us and like, that time of, like, oh, I think we've all grown up together.

A (50:07)

We really have. And you, me and Caroline, you know.

B (50:11)

I admire what you, what you've done quite, you know, but I think you've done something very special, very meaningful.

A (50:17)

Thank you.

B (50:17)

Very rare.

A (50:19)

Thank you. Well, I think, you know, just to be still standing. Thank you, Kristoff.

B (50:27)

All right.

A (50:28)

What We Wore is produced by Capitol and Balto Creative Media. The original song Someone so Enchanting was composed and performed by Britt Drazda. Please follow us on Instagram at whatwe Podcast for additional content and show updates. Queencitypodcastnetwork.com.