Is loving your pets bad for you?

Summary

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Podcast Summary: What's That Rash?

Episode: Is loving your pets bad for you?

Host: ABC News
Date: September 16, 2025

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Overview

This episode tackles the age-old question: Could loving your pets actually be bad for your health? Hosts (including Norman and Tegan) delve into the risks and rewards of close contact with household animals—whether it’s disease transmission, allergy development, or the touted mental and physical health benefits. Punchy, humorous, and grounded in medical research, this episode sifts through facts, myths, and public health guidance to see if your fur babies are harming or helping you.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Hosts’ Personal Biases & Pet Backgrounds

• Norman confesses his (in)famous dislike of cats, revealing it’s due to being highly allergic, not just personal distaste.
• Tegan admits love for her two dogs but enforces limits on their closeness, saying:

  “I love them, but I don't let them sleep in my bed. They're not allowed in the bedrooms in our house.” (01:56)

Notable Quote:

• Norman: “Yeah, that's right. And cats know this. Cats know this. So when they...just can pick somebody who's allergic and then they go straight forward.” (03:29)

2. The Health Risks of Pet Affection ([03:33]–[08:39])

The PSA Prompt:

• Listener Natalie raises concerns after Queensland Health posted warnings against kissing pets, letting them lick faces, or sharing beds and kitchen space.

Disease List:

Norman enumerates diseases pets can transmit, such as:

• Toxoplasmosis (especially dangerous during pregnancy)
• Cat scratch fever, Campylobacter, Chlamydia, Fleas, Hookworms, Ringworm, Roundworms, Leptospirosis, Pasteurella, Salmonellosis, Sarcoptic mange

Example – Bird Disease:

Norman shares a medical school anecdote:

“...he had psittacosis. So you can actually catch pneumonic diseases from your budgies and from your parrots. So if your budgie or parakeet falls off the perch, leave it there. Do not try and apply yourself to the beak.” (07:06)

Tegan asks: “Don't give your birds mouth to mouth resuscitation.” (07:31)

Actual Risk Assessment:

• Solid data on transmission rates is lacking; most data is anecdotal or inferred.
• Many of pet-related diseases are rare, but pregnant people should take extra precautions.

3. Benefits: Allergies, Mental Health & Physical Health ([08:46]–[14:54])

Allergies:

• Exposure to animals, especially on farms, can reduce rates of allergy-related diseases (atopic triad: asthma, eczema, hay fever), mostly if exposure occurs in early life.
• Evidence is mixed—dogs seem to confer the most benefit, possibly both dogs and cats together.

Norman:

“There is evidence that your risk of atopic disease goes down....studies are mixed here. The balance of evidence suggests that it's dog ownership that might be the preventive element here...” (10:40–11:00)

Mental Health:

• The oft-cited idea that pets boost mental health is equivocal—data is “not as cut and dried.”
• Cause and effect are muddled: do pets help mental health, or are lonely/depressed people more likely to seek pets?

Tegan:

"I definitely assumed that it was sort of understood to be fact that having a pet was good for you mentally somehow." (11:39)

Norman:

“...for some People having a pet detracts from their quality of life and their mental well being...” (12:10)

• Dogs facilitate social interaction (dog parks), potentially mediating any mental health improvements—a benefit less likely for cats or caged animals.

Physical Activity:

• Only certain pets (active dogs) boost physical activity meaningfully.
• Dog walking tied to health and maintenance of cognition, according to longitudinal studies (Baltimore Longitudinal Study of Aging).

Norman:

“...they found that dog walking, dog ownership, cat ownership, seem to maintain your ability to plan ahead, to make decisions, maintain your language and memory as you age.” (14:54)

Bidirectionality: More capable people can care for pets; pet effects not solely causative.

4. Are Humans Good for Pets? ([15:32]–[17:45])

• The relationship is reciprocal: stressed owners can stress their pets, measurable in cortisol.
• People self-select animals that fit their temperament.
• Domestic dogs, through evolution, are attuned to human emotional cues and have adapted their behavior to appeal to humans.

Norman:

“Dogs evolved to become very sensitive to human beings because that's part of their survival....there's all sorts of things that have happened to dogs evolutionarily over the years which make them much more appealing to us.” (16:59)

5. Research Biases & Conflicts of Interest ([17:58]–[18:35])

• Hosts scrutinize the funding sources of pet health research: many studies are backed by the pet industry.
• Take findings with “a grain of salt.”

Norman:

“If a pharmaceutical company has funded, say, a clinical trial of their drug, it's much more likely to have a positive result...so it is with pet research...funded by pet food manufacturers who want to sell big pet.” (18:09–18:27)

6. Takeaways & Practical Advice ([18:35]–[18:58])

• There is real (though limited) risk in close pet interactions—especially with mouth/respiratory exposure and for pregnant people.
• Practice good hygiene: wash hands, get others to clean litter trays if pregnant, avoid unnecessary face-licking/kissing.

Norman:

“And in terms of the core question that we're being asked by Natalie, is there a risk if you become too close to your dog's gastrointestinal tract or respiratory tract? The answer is yes. Stay away. And if you're pregnant, get someone else...” (18:35–18:52)

Tegan:

"Wash your hands, find someone else to kiss." (18:54)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Toxoplasma and Cat Affinity:
  Norman: “...there's a devilish thing that toxoplasma does...mice and rats start to become attracted to cats. So they bring the prey closer to the cat and they pounce.” (04:47)
  Tegan: “Oh, you think the cats are, like, bioengineering us to love them and take care of them?” (05:19)

• On Ambiguities in Pet Benefits:
  Tegan: “It makes me think about those studies that try to quantify whether people are happier if they have kids or don't have kids...but if you ask almost anyone with kids they say wouldn't have it any other way.” (13:39)

• On the Reciprocal Relationship:
  Norman: “There's a little bit of evidence that if you are a kind of stressy person, your animal can become a bit stressy and show signs of cortisol in their hair samples." (15:53)

• On Research Funding:
  Norman: “Some of this pet research has actually been funded by pet food manufacturers who want to sell big pet.” (18:18)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Time | Segment/Topic | |-----------|-------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:04 | Hosts share their personal stances on pets | | 02:33 | Listener/Natalie’s public health PSA and main question | | 03:40 | Toxoplasmosis and cat-related health fears | | 05:52 | Full list of diseases passed from pets to humans | | 07:05 | Parrots, budgies, and zoonotic pneumonia (psittacosis) | | 08:46 | Pet-borne infection risk: Is it significant? Are there stats? | | 09:12 | Allergies, epidemiology, farm effect, and immune system training | | 11:01 | Pet affection, mental health, and “vibes-based” beliefs | | 13:01 | Physical health: pet ownership and physical activity | | 14:10 | Cognition, aging, and pets | | 15:32 | Do humans benefit pets? Emotional, reciprocal effects | | 17:58 | Pet research: industry funding and bias discussion | | 18:35 | Key takeaways and practical health guidance |

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Conclusion

Bottom line:
Pets can carry diseases, and super-close contact—especially with pregnant individuals—warrants some caution and heightened hygiene. However, the supposed benefits of pets for allergies, mental and physical health, and cognition are less conclusive than popular wisdom suggests; strong evidence is mixed, studies are often biased or confounded, and much depends on the type of pet and owner.

In sum: Recognize and manage the small, real risks; enjoy your pets if they bring you joy; and always wash your hands.

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Listener Takeaway:
Stay affectionate but sensible:

• If you’re pregnant, get someone else to deal with litter trays.
• Practice good hygiene with pets.
• Recognize both the joys and the realities—with a healthy handful of skepticism for sweeping health claims!
• And, of course, send Norman your cutest cat pics.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

ABC Listen, podcasts, radio, news, music, and more.

[C]

Economics is about more than money. It's about how we navigate money and navigate life. Hello, I'm Peter Martin from the Economy Stupid. My promise, and the promise of my whoopsmart guests who join me each week is to let you know what you need to know without the jargon. And questions are welcome. No economic question is stupid. Search for the economy stupid and hear it now on the ABC Listen app.

[B]

Norman, I would like to start today's episode of what's at Rest with a conflict of interest declaration feelings about household pets.

[D]

Oh, not you as well.

[B]

Oh, God. Well, you've already added yourself as being biased against a certain species. A very popular pet.

[D]

Well, our sister podcast, the health report, which you so cruelly abandoned. I have to say, just get that over with. But I happen to say that I hate cats.

[B]

Everyone already knew that you hated cats. This is the thing that I don't find controversial is that you have been very open about this, but people obviously have not taken it kindly.

[D]

We've lost listeners. They've written in and said, really? I'm cutting you out of my life.

[B]

Wow. You can't get between people and their kitties.

[D]

Yeah. But, you know, we've still got Shelby as our producer and Shelby is a devoted cat lover and I don't hold it against Shelby.

[B]

We love you, Shelby. Please continue to treat us nicely even though Norman is full throated in his hatred of cats, which we can get into. Oh, well, a full disclosure. I think I've mentioned this a bunch of times before. I have two dogs. I love them, but I don't let them sleep in my bed. They're not allowed in the bedrooms in our house, so there is a limit.

[D]

But do you kiss them?

[B]

Oh, no, I don't like dog lick. I'm. We should get into it. We should get into it. This is really all we're talking about today on what's that Rash?

[D]

The podcast where we answer the health questions that just everybody's asking or barking for.

[B]

So today's question comes from Natalie. But Natalie, even though it sounds like it's coming from just one person, has a large body of people behind her because she's sharing A psa. A public service announcement that Queensland Health posted on social media a few months ago. A post warning us against kissing our pets or letting them lick faces, share our bed or be in the kitchen. But as Natalie points out, and as I have verified by looking at the comments section on this Facebook post, most commenters did not take it seriously. Natalie says, please discuss. How seriously must we take this? Are diseases spread from pets a widespread issue? Does their cleanliness affect the risk? There's also, Natalie says, the positive mental health impact from pet affection. Well, Norman, it sounds like we're both coming with biases here.

[D]

We are. I'll just be clear. The reason I don't like cats is that I'm incredibly allergic to them. And of course, when a cat knows.

[B]

So they harmed you first.

[D]

Yeah, that's right. And cats know this. Cats know this. So when they. They just can pick somebody who's allergic and then they go straight forward and.

[B]

Rubbing up against your legs and stuff.

[D]

But there's a theory as to why they do that. Because of an infection that cats do spread.

[B]

I thought it was because cats are psychopaths or sociopaths.

[D]

Well, you know, they are sort of biopaths in the general environment, which is the other reason for not liking them. Now, they carry this infection called toxoplasmosis.

[B]

So as a person who has been pregnant more than I've had the fear of God put into me about toxoplasmosis, it's an infection that if you get it during pregnancy, it can have really severe consequences for you. It's pretty rare. But a fact about toxoplasmosis that I find a bit more interesting is what it can do to your brain, which I think is what you're about to tell me.

[D]

That's right. So just to deal with toxoplasmosis and keeping cats away from pregnant women is that if an unborn baby does get an infection with toxoplasmosis, it can cause serious neurological damage with a small head and, you know, develop abnormalities through life. And as you say, luckily, it's rare. We don't know why it's so rare, given the common exposure to cats. But yet this is about changing your brain.

[B]

What do you mean?

[D]

Well, studies of animals suggest that there's a devilish thing that toxoplasma does when cats spread toxo to mice and rats is that mice and rats start to become attracted to cats. So they bring the prey closer to the cat and they pounce.

[B]

It sort of makes them more have A higher appetite for risk.

[D]

So it's not just mice and rats. It may be humans.

[B]

Oh, you think the cats are, like, bioengineering us to love them and take care of them?

[D]

Yeah. It's probably why these damn cats who know I'm allergic to it come up close because they can sense that I need a dose of toxo.

[B]

Okay, well, we shouldn't.

[D]

Worked. Hasn't worked, I have to say.

[B]

Well, stay strong, Norman. And I suppose it is. This is a timely reminder. If you are pregnant, protect yourself against toxoplasmosis. Get someone else to clean out the litter tray for you. That's one of the main risks. Wash your hands, just practise good hygiene and maybe a little bit of social distancing from your cat while you're pregnant.

[D]

And there are a list of scary diseases that you can catch from pets. So there's toxor, which we've discussed. There's cat scratch fever, which is a particularly unpleasant chronic infection. There's campylobacter, which can cause diarrhea and vomiting. There's chlamydia. There are fleas, hookworms, ringworm, roundworms, leptospirosis, pasturella, salmonellosis, sarcoptic mange, and toxoplasma. I mean, there's a fair range, and those tend to be from the four legged animals, but the two legged animals also can spread disease.

[B]

Are you talking about us?

[D]

No, I'm talking about budgies.

[B]

Oh. Oh, birdies. Okay, talk to me about bird disease.

[D]

Yeah, well, I mean, it's slightly apocryphal, but, you know, when I was at medical school, it was one of our respiratory lecturers who had a patient who came in with very difficult to diagnose pneumonia. And when they were taking the history, the guy said, look, I was really fine until my budgie fell off the pouch and I gave it mouth to beak resuscitation.

[B]

Oh, no.

[D]

And he had psittacosis. So you can actually catch pneumonic diseases from your budgies and from your parrots. So if your budgie or parakeet falls off the perch, leave it there. Do not try and apply yourself to the beak.

[B]

Follow up, did the mouth to beak resuscitation work?

[D]

No. And did the treatment of his chest infection work? Yes.

[B]

Oh, well, that's a relief.

[D]

It's sometimes very hard to treat.

[B]

Okay, so I didn't know we had to say it, but we have. Don't give your birds mouth to mouth resuscitation. But coming back to Natalie's Question. You rattled off such a long list of diseases before. Don't think I didn't hear you say chlamydia. I don't want to know how people are catching that from their pets. But kissing pets, letting them lick faces, share bed, be in the kitchen, these are the things that the Queensland Health Post warned people against. What is the actual risk? Do we have numbers around people actually catching these diseases from their pets in Australia?

[D]

No, there's really not very good evidence one way or the other. So all that can really be said is, you know, some of these are reportable diseases and the assumption is that they may have caught it from their pets. Some of them are more common than others. So if you get diarrhea and vomiting, have you caught that from, you know, if you got the Campylobacter from your pet? You may have, but the solid data is very hard to. In fact, solid data in this whole area of pets and human health, as we're about to find out, is a bit loose.

[B]

Yes, thank you for saying diarrhea and then the word solid and loose in such short succession afterwards.

[D]

So, okay, so I'm glad you're saying these things because it relieves me of the dad jokes.

[B]

I do want to talk about the benefits that we perceive that pets give us and dig into whether there's data there because what I'm hearing is a bit of hand waving about dise and the fact that they are a risk. And sure they are, but we don't have the numbers on them. But we also have vibes based ideas about pets being good for us, good to prevent against allergies, good for our mental health, good for our physical health. I think it's time we looked at those numbers too.

[D]

So let's look at allergies. And in a recent. What's that rash. We talked about hay fever, allergic rhinitis and the prevention of what's called atopic disease through having pets. And it comes from epidemiological evidence that if you grow up on a farm, you're far less likely to develop the atopic, what's called triad, which is asthma, eczema and hay fever. And this is thought to be due. And people talk about hygiene and dirt and so on. There's a relationship here also to food allergies, to peanut allergy, for example, is that a baby's immune system needs to be trained in the first six months of life. And when it's not properly trained, the side effect of that, it's almost pleiotropy, which we talk About a lot, you know, two actions in the same.

[B]

Oh wait, I always forget. No, it's not. That doesn't matter. Let's play it anyway.

[D]

A new science for pleiotropy. In other words, more than one effect from the same system where that part of the immune system goes into overdrive in terms of a side effect, which is allergy oversimplification. But that's what's thought to happen and there's some reasonable evidence that that is what happens. So what is it about farms? They think it's about exposure to animals and animal fur and that the more animals that you get exposed to, the more your immune system is trained in the first six months of. And there is evidence that your risk of atopic disease goes down. Now there is some controversy about that. Is it all atopic diseases? Is it just asthma? Is it hay fever as well? Is it just dogs? Is it dogs and cats? And the studies are mixed here. The balance of evidence suggests that it's dog ownership that might be the preventive element here in terms of training the immune system. But other research suggests if you have dogs and, and cats, you might get a more enhanced effect.

[B]

So the other thing that Natalie also says in her letter quite confidently is that there's a positive mental health impact from pet affection. Well, we looked into the data and it's not as cut and dried as that.

[D]

It absolutely isn't. Because if you have a mental health issue, are you more likely to acquire a pet because you may be lonely or you may believe that a pet is going to make you feel better? So there's a two way relationship here is that there may be a bias in people who are pet owners towards having maybe depressive symptoms or being lonely or what have you and having a pet and therefore the cause and effect relationship is confused.

[B]

It is a tricky one. We looked at a couple, well, several different systematic reviews of the literature because there actually has been a lot of studies into this. I don't know that I would say that a lot of the studies are as well designed as we would like. I think there are some variables that are hard to control for here. But I was surprised at how, how equivocal the research was when I definitely assumed that it was sort of understood to be fact that having a pet was good for you mentally somehow.

[D]

Yeah, because in fact having a pet can raise your level of distress. If your pet becomes sick, you're worried about your pet's well being, you've got to take it to the vet a lot for some People having a pet detracts from their quality of life and their mental well being and it depends on your behaviour as well. So if you've got a cat, very few people take the cats for a walk, but a lot of people take their dogs for a walk and they might go to a dog park and they meet other people and therefore the dog is a vehicle for social interaction which is an indirect effect of having the pet not to be knocked at all. Is if you're lonely and once or twice a day you interact with people who share pets and you get some social engagement, that's a really good thing and that will help your levels of distress. But if you've got a cat at home, it's much less clear. And certainly if you've got a budgie in a cage, you know, talking to the budgie is not necessarily the same as social interaction with human beings.

[B]

Well, this is the same. It's a similar thing with physical activity. Again, something I think I'd heard a bunch of times is that if you have a pet or a dog specifically, that you're more likely to be physically active. But a lot of these studies are lumping pet ownership in altogether. I as someone who has the great privilege of owning two active breed dogs, it is a different experience than having fish in an aquarium.

[D]

Yeah. And probably a different experience from owning a dachshund or cavoodle that you know, after 100 meters collapse out. You gotta carry them. Carrying them might be fine too.

[B]

Carrying them would be very good for my.

[D]

Yeah, a self exercising dog doesn't get you very far.

[B]

It does make me especially on the joy or mental health metric. It makes me think about those studies that try to quantify whether people are happier if they have kids or don't have kids. And the truth is that if you look at the data, a lot of the time it looks like people without kids are happier because kids are huge sources of stress and they're expensive. But if you ask almost anyone with kids they say wouldn't have it any other way. They're the light of my life, I love them. I'd never change anything. And I imagine it's the same with dog or with any pet ownership.

[D]

Yes. So let's just talk about cognition here and cognitive function. So the evidence is quite strong that your cognitive function is maintained better if you've got children or grandchildren. So children around seems to keep your cognitive function at a level plane longer.

[B]

Gosh. It doesn't feel like it at the time.

[D]

Exactly. Because you feel absolutely wrecked and Squeezed by it all.

[B]

So with the cognition thing, it kind of looked to me at least like there was maybe something to it, that it was useful in helping people preserve cognition. But it also strikes me that maybe you're more likely to be able to have a pet if you're doing well versus someone who perhaps isn't doing so well and isn't sort of in a fit state to look after.

[D]

So there have been longitudinal studies. One of them is the Baltimore Longitudinal Study of Aging, a very long standing study of aging. And they found that dog walking, dog ownership, cat ownership, seem to maintain your ability to plan ahead, to make decisions, maintain your language and memory as you age. Measuring for confounders is hard, but these longitudinal studies are quite good studies. So if you go on that, I mean, it's not a randomized trial, but there is an association there. But it's going to be bi directional as well. The more cognitive capacity you've got, the more capacity you've got to look after an animal.

[B]

I thought you were going to say bi directional in that it helped the animal too, because I'm noticing that we're being very one directional in this conversation. So far it's all been about us, us, us. Are pets good for us? Are we better if we've got pets? Are our brains better? Are our bodies better? What about the pet? What do they get out of this? Are we good for pets, I guess is the question.

[D]

Well, there have been comparative studies of, and so this comes to mental health of whether or not if you are distressed or stressed, the animal becomes distressed or stressed. And there's a little bit of evidence that if you are a kind of stressy person, your animal can become a bit stressy and show signs of cortisol in their hair samples. You're going to choose an animal that you feel fits you. And if you're somebody who likes to be active in doing stuff, you're going to pick an animal that's up there active with the tail raised. And if you're laid back and easy going, you're going to like the cavoodle who's just sitting there waiting with their eyes open wide to come and love me.

[B]

Oh, now I want to go to a pet shelter. No, no, don't. Tegan, snap out of it.

[D]

Stop.

[B]

Does also strike me that it's fairly easy to measure people who do own pets and people who don't own pets. It's quite hard to measure pets who are homed and maybe stray or feral animals. It's not really comparing apples with apples. So it's hard for us to know.

[D]

And another of our companion podcasts, the Science show, over the years has done a lot on dog behavior and dog evolution. And dogs evolved to become very sensitive to human beings because that's part of their survival. And so they hone in on us. So this is their, this is the doggy equivalent of toxoplasma, but it's their behavior, their wide eyes. There's all sorts of things that have happened to dogs evolutionarily over the years which make them much more appealing to us. And dogs know this and they serve us. So whether they mirror us to become more attractive to us and more dependent and be looked after more is almost certainly part of dog evolution.

[B]

Definitely go back and listen to the Science show, but if you are into that, the what the Duck podcast actually did a whole series on dogs very recently. It is so much fun, it's so interesting. You can go and find that on the ABC Listen app.

[D]

When you and I talk about medical research or health research, we don't often talk about how we look at these papers on air when we discuss them, but we always look at who funded the research.

[B]

Ah, yes.

[D]

And if a pharmaceutical company has funded, say, a clinical trial of their drug, it's much more likely to have a positive result than independently funded research. And so it is with pet research is that some of this pet research has actually been funded by pet food manufacturers who want to sell big pet.

[B]

Big dogs, big cats, the fat cats.

[D]

That's right.

[B]

So take it with a grain of salt, I'm guessing, is what you're saying here.

[D]

Well, there is some evidence of benefit. It's not uniform. And in terms of the core question that we're being asked by Natalie, is there a risk if you become too close to your dog's gastrointestinal tract or respiratory tract? The answer is yes. Stay away. And if you're pregnant, get someone else.

[B]

To clean out that litter tray, wash.

[D]

Your hands, find someone else to kiss.

[B]

Excellent advice. Well, Natalie, thank you so much for the question. Shout out to you and everyone in the comment section of that post before and if you've got a question that you'd like to ask us, the email address is thatrashbc.netau and do me a.

[D]

Favour, if you're going to stop listening to what's that rash because of my cat prejudice, you know, give us a break.

[B]

I think Norman. Actually, no, I'm going to speak directly to you, the listener. Send us your cat pics. Let's convince Norman that they can be cute and fluffy. You can send them to that [e-mail].

[D]

Au what's in feedback?

[B]

Ah, yes. That same email address is where you can send any feedback you have. We've got a couple of people writing to us about jet lag because we spoke about that a couple of weeks ago. Cheryl says I get tired, but I don't get jet lag. Yes, I know what jet lag feels like because once, just once, I didn't follow my procedures and it was bloody awful. Would you like to hear Cheryl's patented jet lag prevention guide?

[D]

My notebook is open immediately before boarding.

[B]

I put my mind into the time of my destination, ignoring stopovers unless the stopover isn't overnight, no matter what meal is being served. For example, if it's breakfast time at my destination, I will look for something that might be eaten for breakfast. If it's daytime at my destination, I will keep myself awake. If it's nighttime or early morning at my destination, I'll sleep. Cheryl says it's helpful that I can sleep anywhere. Lights and noise don't bother me.

[D]

Oh, Cheryl.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[D]

We can commune about this one.

[B]

Nice for the both of you. If I can't sleep, which is rare, I'll do something that's sleep related. Seat back, read, close my eyes. It's boring, but it's sleep related. Her final thing is though, I drink lots of champagne.

[D]

She must be fine. Business class.

[B]

Cheryl says last time they had seriously good reds and I wasn't sure if it still would work. It did. Zero jet lag.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

What do you think?

[D]

That's a red flag.

[B]

Doctor's opinion, please.

[D]

That's a red flag. Cheryl's flying business class if she's getting champagne. Most people would say the champagne stuff might work against you, But Cheryl, your N of 1 is, you know, we've just got to bow down to it.

[B]

Yeah, go off. Cheryl, it sounds like you're having a great time. Congrats. I hope you're doing lots and lots of long haul flights at the moment. You can email your postcard to that [e-mail] See you next time. See you then.