Podcast Summary: "Is Retirement Bad For You?"

Podcast: What's That Rash? by ABC News
Date: January 20, 2026
Hosts: Fiona Pepper (B), Dr. Norman Swan (A)

Main Theme

The episode explores whether retirement is actually bad for your health—especially brain health—and discusses the effects of retirement on cognitive function, mood, and overall wellbeing. The hosts address listener questions about retirement, challenge prevailing cultural assumptions, and delve into the science and history behind retirement.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Listener Curiosity and the Origins of the Topic

• The episode is sparked by a previous offhand comment from Dr. Norman Swan suggesting, "no one should ever retire," which drew strong listener reactions and many follow-up questions ([01:54]-[02:19]).
• Questions from listeners like Tammy, Ashley, and Tony highlight diverse retirement experiences: from thriving in retirement, to feeling anxious about cognitive decline, to embarking on new work ventures post-retirement ([02:23]-[03:23]).

2. Historical Context: How Did We Get Retirement?

• Fiona provides a brief history lesson tracing modern retirement to Otto von Bismarck’s 19th-century Germany ([06:09]-[08:23]):
  • Retirement initially provided financial support only to those disabled by age (70+).
  • Life expectancy at the time was far lower than retirement age—making it a rare privilege.
  • The concept spread globally, including to the USA, where retirement age was set at 65, but life expectancy was only 58 in the 1930s.
  • Over time, increased life expectancy turned a short late-life benefit into a decades-long phase for many.

Notable quote:
Fiona (B): “So you end up with this cultural thing which we have now, which is that you’re sort of entitled to a few decades of basically kicking back and doing whatever you want.” ([08:19])

3. Cognitive Decline and Retirement

• Dr. Norman Swan explains research on cognition and retirement ([03:43]-[13:03]):
  • On average, cognitive decline (memory, thinking, processing speed) accelerates after retirement.
  • The complexity of your job and your educational background (‘cognitive reserve’) influence how quickly you decline.
  • Jobs high in complexity—especially those requiring ongoing learning, problem solving, and people management—delay cognitive decline.
  • There are nuances:
    • People in more physical jobs (e.g., manual labor) may reach a point where retirement is necessary earlier, but their cognitive decline can be less steep than someone leaving a high-stress management job.
    • Economic studies show in countries where people retire younger, national cognitive function scores are lower in older populations.

Notable quotes:

• Dr. Swan (A): “By and large, retirement is often associated with more rapid cognitive decline.” ([03:43])
• Dr. Swan (A): “Countries that retire early have lost more cognitive function than the countries that retire late.” ([13:22])

4. Is It Just About the Type of Work?

• The biggest gains come from “cognitive reserve” built through both education and the nature of your work ([08:53]-[11:28]).
• If someone’s job demanded a lot cognitively, and they continue similar activities past paid employment, they help delay decline.
• Healthier people tend to work longer, and those retiring due to early (sometimes unnoticed) cognitive problems may skew some findings about retirement’s effects ([11:28]-[12:31]).

5. What About Physical and Emotional Health?

• The links between retirement and physical & mental health are complex ([14:17]-[15:31]):
  • Mood shifts are common: some improve after retirement, others worsen. Lack of choice about retirement (forced/abrupt retirement) is associated with worse mood outcomes.
  • Physical activity patterns may change, not always for the better—on average, people's weight goes up after retirement and overall activity may decrease.
  • Having a sense of control and engagement is key to positive mental and physical health post-retirement.

Notable quote:
Dr. Swan (A): “If your mood is better, you’re much more likely to engage in physical activity... If your mood is down, it’s hard to motivate yourself.” ([14:20])

6. What Actually Matters: Cognitive Demand, Not Just Paid Work

• Redefining retirement: it isn’t about stopping paid employment but continuing activities with high “cognitive demand” ([16:01]-[17:35]):
  • Activities should be varied, involve social connections (especially with people outside your family), learning new things, and regular challenges.
  • Paid employment is not the only way to get these benefits—volunteering, caregiving, hobbies, and new ventures can all keep the brain engaged.

Notable quote:
Dr. Swan (A): "It’s cognitive demand you want throughout life... It’s like always pushing yourself to do, add on more weights, add on more reps, add on a bit of speed... Your cognitive demand is high and you are having to work to meet that cognitive demand. That’s the secret." ([16:01]-[17:10])

7. Listener Tony’s Example: The Ideal Retirement?

• Tony retired from his main career but became a Bernese Mountain Dog groomer at his wife's suggestion—an example of staying physically, mentally, and socially active in retirement ([03:23], [17:35]).
• Both hosts agree Tony’s approach is smart: the work is physical, offers fresh challenges, social interaction, and learning.

Notable moment:
Fiona (B): “We should all be more like Tony.” ([17:49])

Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Fiona (B): "All the good stuff happens after midnight." ([01:37])
• Dr. Swan (A): “At some point the ABC will wave goodbye to me rather than me waving goodbye to the ABC.” ([01:19])
• Dr. Swan (A): “You are losing something.” (on cognitive function post-retirement) ([13:04])
• Dr. Swan (A): “There’s also some economists talk about ‘retirement in place’ where some people have checked out of their job before they retire.” ([11:44])
• Fun aside: The French may be less “clever” due to early retirement, which would "rage-bet" French listeners ([13:20]-[13:22], light-hearted).

Important Timestamps

• [01:54] Listener questions prompt the deep dive into retirement and health.
• [03:43] Dr. Swan explains the evidence: “retirement is often associated with more rapid cognitive decline.”
• [06:09]-[08:23] Fiona’s history of retirement: Bismarck, America, and changes in life expectancy.
• [08:53]-[13:36] The science behind cognitive reserve, job complexity, and the effects of retirement.
• [14:17]-[15:31] The complicated effects of retirement on mood, physical health, and activity.
• [16:01]-[17:35] The importance of “cognitive demand” post-paid employment; strategies for thriving in retirement.

Takeaways & Tone

The episode is conversational, lively, and full of relatable listener stories. The hosts encourage reframing retirement:

• Don’t just think of retirement as the end of work—think of it as shifting to new, cognitively demanding adventures.
• What matters is staying mentally, socially, and physically engaged, not whether you’re being paid or not.

Final word:
Dr. Swan (A): “So the recipe for post paid work I think is... as many activities as you can possibly do that have a variety to them, family, friends, outside people that you don’t know, outside activities, having to learn new things all the time. That’s the secret.” ([17:10])