C (2:17)

Well, we'll get into the evidence for and against very soon. But like Justin and Anna and Nigel, I have been seeing this so much on my social media feeds and I'd never heard about it before. Justin says I've recently come across a number of podcasts and websites recommending mouth taping to improve nasal breathing. Supposedly it helps reduce snoring, sleep, apnoea and a Bunch of other inadverted commas. Bad medical stuff. Is there any evidence to back it up? Is it safe? Anna says, I've just trialled for one month. Mouth taping at night for a few reasons. Snoring, never feeling rested when I wake up, dry mouth. Anna gives it a big thumbs up. Snoring's cured deeper. Restful sleep, no dry mouth in the morning. Anna says I wake up before my alarm. Never in my life has this happened. Should I continue? And finally, Nigel is performing one of our favourite types of experiments. In n equals 1. He's mouth taping at night, monitors his sleep with his phone, which tells him how much sleep he's getting. Results are inconclusive so far, but I think I wake up less and feel more rested. And is also asking, is there any evidence that this works?

B (3:26)

All good questions and interesting to hear the positive feedback from it.

C (3:31)

So if we've got three different people who've basically been like, yeah, it works for me, plus the one.

B (3:35)

Don't you feel embarrassed to only find out about it a few weeks ago? Where have I been?

C (3:38)

Get with the program. You're obviously not on TikTok. Do we need any more evidence, Norman?

B (3:43)

Well, you kind of do. You want to have. For you to recommend it or doctors to recommend it. You'd really want good evidence that it actually works and doesn't do any harm. And there are a lot of claims being made for it.

C (3:56)

Well, before we get to the evidence. You tried it?

B (3:58)

I did. And we'll publish on our social media a video of me doing it.

C (4:03)

We have Norman in his Jim Jams.

B (4:05)

That's right. In my floral pajamas.

C (4:09)

I was so glad that you volunteered to do this one because honestly, the idea of. I actually do breathe through my nose and I think I breathe through my nose at night when I'm asleep, but I've never been awake to check. But the idea of putting something over my mouth feels so claustrophobic to me. I don't know if I would actually be able to fall asleep if I did do it.

B (4:28)

Yeah. So what you do is you. I mean, there are products and some products that look like a mouth, but.

C (4:32)

Yeah, there's little lip shaped. Is that what you used?

B (4:35)

No.

C (4:35)

Lip shaped.

B (4:36)

No, no. I just ripped off some medical tape. And so you essentially run the tape, bottom lip, top lip, the length of your mouth, so that effectively you've got a seal. It's not a perfect seal, but you've got a pretty good seal on your mouth. And then you go off into the land of Nod.

C (4:52)

So your N equals one that we're adding to the other ones that we just heard. Did you feel like you had a better night's sleep? You said a deviated septum. Were you feeling like you could actually breathe properly?

B (5:03)

Why don't you ask me that at the end of the show? So I don't.

C (5:06)

Oh, a delayed reveal.

B (5:07)

People's view of the thing.

C (5:09)

I love it.

B (5:10)

Hold. Hold your nose until we get there.

C (5:14)

Well, okay, let's talk about the claims, because they are many and varied. The big ones are around things like asthma, sleep apnea, snoring, and then kind of general sleep quality. And then there's some claims around heart health and even changing the shape of your face.

B (5:31)

Yeah, it's a long list. I think a lot of people listening to this conversation would be quite happy if they just got a better night's sleep rather than all the other claims. I mean, it's interesting how it emerged because there is some theory to this.

C (5:45)

Oh, well, I was going to ask you about this because I've heard that it's an offshoot of something called the Buteyko Method, which is just like breathing.

B (5:54)

You want our mailbag to be full, you just leave Buteyko Method at that. Buteyko Method is much more involved. It's retraining your breathing, and it's about breath holding on the way out. It's about holding your nose, it's about expanding your lungs. It's essentially exercising your lungs. I mean, oversimplifying it. And there actually is a little bit of evidence from randomized trials that the Buteyko method, properly done, can reduce the instance of asthma. The idea here is that you are creating some back pressure on the lungs to expand them. And so this is the first bit of theory behind the mouth taping. It is that when you breathe through your nose, there's more resistance to the air when you exhale, and therefore there's back pressure on the lungs, which expands them a little bit. The other theory behind this is that the nose is there to filter crap out of the air, filter viruses. There's a very rich immune surface there on the nose, so that the nose is important in terms of protection and it also warms the air going into the lungs as well. Whereas when you're taking these vast volumes of air unfiltered through the mouth, the air can be cold and irritate the lungs and actually exacerbate asthma or bring on an asthma attack. So that's kind of the theory behind it in terms of why the nose is important for breathing.

C (7:21)

So mouth taping isn't part of the Buteyko method. It's sort of an offshoot that's grown in more recent years.

B (7:27)

I think the line between the Buteyko method and mouth taping could be seen to be a bit tenuous.

C (7:33)

Right. It's a little line drawn in lead pencil, not a big thick texture line.

B (7:37)

And I think if you were to argue for the link, it would be in this idea that if you breathe through your nose, when you breathe out, there's a bit more resistance there. And back pressure goes to the lungs to keep them open a little bit longer without a lot of evidence to back that up, but that's the theory.

C (7:51)

Okay, so mouth taping specifically, it's very popular with all of the beautiful people on social media and elsewhere. Can we step through the kind of conditions that it's claimed it helps with? Starting with asthma.

B (8:04)

So asthma. And that's where you get a little bit of a link to Buteyko. Holding the lungs open. There's sleep apnea. You shouldn't confuse sleep apnea with snoring. So plenty of people snore, but they don't necessarily have sleep apnea. Sleep apnea is where you. You often do snore, but then you stop breathing for a period of time. So.

C (8:30)

That was very convincing. Well done.

B (8:31)

Yeah, it's good, isn't it? I mean, I'm hoping that there's an Oscar in this somewhere. So sleep quality bad breath, they say your mouth dries out and your breath goes bad. And cardiovascular health. Coming to cardiovascular health. There is a relationship with sleep apnea and cardiovascular health. Some people believe there's a relationship with high blood press. And the people who sell the CPAP devices for sleep apnea argue that it also helps to prevent heart disease. So those are the main benefits suggested.

C (9:00)

Okay, let us now talk about evidence because I suspect this will be quite a short chat.

B (9:05)

So the evidence with asthma is not strong. There only is one study there. There is some evidence that mouth taping improves snoring and decreases sleep apnea. In other words, either breathing too shallowly or stopping breathing altogether.

C (9:23)

That's pretty interesting because the sleep apnoea interventions otherwise are quite major. Like a CPAP machine is a big piece of kit and even the sort of less bulky techniques of things like they look like mouth guards, they're called mandibular advancement devices. Basically like a mouth guard thing, it's still something, you've got to wear it inside your mouth, whereas a little bit of tape on the outside of your mouth maybe feels like something worth giving a go before you invest in something a bit more expensive and medical.

B (9:51)

Yeah. And there's a preliminary study that's been published looking at mouth taping during sleep for sleep apnoea and snoring. And in fact, what they found was the worse the snoring or apnoea was, the greater the benefit from mouth taping. It was less noticeable in people with mild obstructive sleep apnea. And it's not entirely clear whether it prevents progression to CPAP devices or reduces the reliance of them. And there's little doubt that nasal obstruction does play a role in sleep disordered breathing. And that if you sort out the nasal obstruction, namely me, it's my nasal septum deviation, then, in fact, my snoring might get better. Which, don't tell my partner this, otherwise I'll be nagged to go to the ear, nose, and throat surgeon. So, look, people have tried clearing the nose with steroids in the nose. They've tried nasal dilators, saline lavage to make it easier to breathe through the nose. And, you know, there is some evidence that if you actually clear the nose independent of mouth taping, sleep does get better. There's not a convincing evidence about bad breath and mouth breathing.

C (10:59)

It kind of stands to reason, though, if you're breathing with your mouth open all night and your mouth sort of dries out, it gets gummy and disgusting. Whereas I feel like, anecdotally, if you got your mouth closed at night, your breath isn't as bad the next day. It's always bad.

B (11:13)

It's not as bad having your mouth taped. You know, I'm not sure you'd want to be in front of somebody when they take the tape off.

C (11:19)

It's like opening a tomb.

B (11:22)

Yeah.

C (11:23)

Okay. So the one that I'm most curious about is heart health, because the directional line between the mouth and the heart seems less clear to me than, say, bad breath and mouth breathing.

B (11:33)

Well, there is a nerve called the vagus nerve, which is associated with control of heart rate, also is involved in all sorts of physiological activities in the body, particularly below the neck. There is some evidence that when you breathe through the nose, your blood pressure does drop and the heart does get calmed through the vagal nerve, because the vagal nerve tends to be inhibitory and settle things down. So it may well be that nasal breathing, just through how it's stimulating the neurological system that controls our breathing and gets fed back to the brain as well, does have an effect. There is a physiological explanation for that. But to see an effect on coronary heart disease, you'd probably have to be mouth taping for many, many years. And we don't have the time to actually. Or the money to do that kind of research. Then there's cosmetics.

C (12:26)

Yes. So I have tried to curate my algorithm as much as possible to not see this sort of thing, but there are sort of selfies where people like mouth tape at night and then show off their chiseled jawline in the morning. My main beef with these sorts of videos is the people in them tend to be about 22 years old to start with. But also I just call it just can't be true. Is it true? Is there anything to this?

B (12:51)

There is a sense, and you and I have had this conversation before. Doctors, particularly pediatricians, can often tell whether a child is allergic and suffering from nasal obstruction by the look of their face.

C (13:02)

Ah, is this. Yes. And also kids with the large tonsils and adenoids.

B (13:06)

Yeah. So the. The allergic faces, as they say, is where the allergic.

C (13:11)

What, sorry, what do they call it?

B (13:13)

Faces. Not faces. Basically, the face tends to be. The eyes are a bit droopy, the cheeks are a bit puffy, and the child often is breathing through their mouth, rather through their nose. There is some evidence that your face can change shape according to what's going on inside your mouth and nose.

C (13:36)

And I guess I'm curious to know about the direction of this. Like, is that. Is someone not able to close their mouth to breathe and that's causing their face to be in that shape? Maybe. Or is it perhaps that if you have a face that's that shape, it's just nicer to breathe through your mouth?

B (13:50)

And to say that it's going to change between morning and night, you're suddenly going to have a chiseled jaw like Clint Eastwood from mouth taping overnight, I don't think is realistic or going to happen.

C (14:02)

What did your jaw look like the next morning after you taped him out?

B (14:05)

Very puffy.

C (14:06)

Oh, that's disappointing.

B (14:07)

But we'll come back to that.

C (14:09)

So I suppose for the majority of people who have maybe seen this and are considering it, if they don't sort of have one of these conditions, the promise, as you said before, of a good night's sleep or a better night's sleep is very compelling. How do we actually measure whether someone's had a better night's sleep? Like, if someone's saying, oh, yeah, when I wake up, I feel more refreshed. How can you really argue with that?

B (14:30)

You can't actually, and nor should you want to. We're not talking about something that's going to kill people. They say that if you've got an infection, an ear infection or a sinus infection, you shouldn't tape your mouth up because that would affect with the natural flow of fluids through your respiratory system. But if you've consumed alcohol or sedatives, if you've really got nasal problems breathing through your nose, such as polyps and so on, you should watch out. Obesity, they say. And I assume that's because when you're obese, you've got fat around your neck and that can affect how circulates through your upper airways. If you've got severe heart or lung problems because you don't want to put stress on the system. And then there's the effect of the actual tape on your lips.

C (15:12)

Right, so like a skin irritation that you might get.

B (15:14)

Yeah. And I think in this case, what the heck, if people are saying, as they are saying to us, they're finding it good for their sleep, go for it.

C (15:24)

So I must know, Norman, how did you feel after your night? Your single night, Your N equals 1 of 1 of mouth taping.

B (15:32)

Completely bloody shite.

C (15:35)

Oh, no.

B (15:36)

Yeah, but you see, I didn't see. If I'd looked at these side effects, I probably wouldn't have tried it. But, you know, I actually do have problems breathing through my nose and therefore as soon as I taped over, I started to get panicky because I was having trouble breathing through the nose. But I got through an hour or two of sleep. But eventually I had to sort of ease it off and then I fell back asleep, but woke up completely knackered because there had been so much stre on my system. But that's me.

C (16:03)

So you didn't even do. You didn't even last a night because otherwise you would have died. I'm glad you took it off, Norman.

B (16:07)

Yeah, yeah. No, no, I wouldn't have died. Self protection does re emerge and that's why you shouldn't be taking it when you've got alcohol, because you've got problems there, you might not be fully aware to appreciate that you actually got your own difficulty. So for me, didn't work, but I actually know why it didn't work. It was my nose. Maybe one day, if I get a new nose and throat surgeon to re break my nose and straighten it, I'll have another go.

C (16:28)

When. When you get your nose job.

B (16:30)

I don't like to think of it as a nose job.

C (16:33)

It is a nose job.

B (16:34)

I suppose it is a Nose job. But, you know, the only thing that will happen is that the point of my nose will move to the midline rather than being to the right.

C (16:42)

We love you. Asymmetrical nose and all, Norman. So to come back to Justin, Anna and Nigel. Keep going.

B (16:48)

Yeah, stick with it.

C (16:49)

Well, thank you for sending that question in. If you have a question you want us to answer, you can always email us. We are thatrashbc.net au which is also where you can email, not questions. And we have had some feedback. Norman, on our Brain Fog episode, Anna said, in last week's episode, you mentioned that medications used to treat drug and alcohol addiction are showing promise against brain fog. Anna says, I took low dose naltrexone for eight weeks and it certainly boosted my energy level, but my brain was turned to mush.

B (17:20)

Oh, no.

C (17:20)

Anna says I was floating along on a pink cloud of cheerful vagueness.

B (17:24)

That's my normal state.

C (17:26)

But I decided enough was enough when I realised I'd put the electric kettle on the gas cooktop.

B (17:32)

Oh, no.

C (17:33)

After stopping the medication, I was back to being tired. But I haven't melted a single kettle since then.

B (17:40)

Right, thank you, Anna, for that feedback. And we know what to do in the kitchen if you're going to try an ultrexone.

C (17:46)

And one from Dot who says brain fog. Not one mention of menopause. That is absolutely our bad. We should have. It's quite a common symptom that you hear a lot of women talking about.

B (17:56)

Yep. And in pregnancy and chemotherapy and so on, there are lots of different causes of brain fog, as we said on the show.

C (18:03)

Well, thank you, Dot and Anna, for sending in your emails. You can email your feedback as well as your questions to thatrashbc.net au and.

B (18:11)

We'Ll see you next week with another fascinating question, but you can be sure I won't have a mouth tape on between now and then. That's good. Sounds it. I'll see you next time, then. See you then, Sam.