Podcast Summary: (Real) Jewish Space Lasers - with Oded Ben-David

Episode Title: (Real) Jewish Space Lasers
Host/Author: Ark Media
Hosts: Yonatan Adiri and Michal Lev-Ram
Release Date: June 11, 2025

Introduction and Numbers of the Week ([00:00] - [02:05])

The episode kicks off with Yonatan Adiri and Michal Lev-Ram introducing the concept of "What's Your Number?" where they each present a significant figure relevant to Israel's economy and security.

• Yonatan Adiri mentions his number as $5 per interception, highlighting the cost-efficiency of Israel's laser-based Iron Beam interception system. He contrasts this with the $50,000 cost per interception for traditional Iron Dome systems, emphasizing the four-order-of-magnitude cost reduction.

  "Last week the country declassified the system's first generation which was successfully deployed operationally. Big news, $5 interceptions compared to $50,000 interceptions for IR. That's four orders of magnitude cheaper." ([00:11])

• Michal Ivram presents her number as 117 drones, referring to Ukraine's recent Operation Spider's Web attack on Russia, which reportedly destroyed 40 Russian warplanes and caused $7 billion in damages.

  "This reportedly destroyed 40 Russian warplanes and caused $7 billion in damages. That's what's estimated." ([00:41])

The hosts engage in a light-hearted debate over whose number holds more significance, ultimately conceding that Yonatan's number has greater implications for Israel's economy and security.

Windex Update ([02:05] - [07:36])

The discussion shifts to the Windex, Ark Media's index of Israeli-based and Israeli-founded companies. The Windex saw significant activity during the week of June 2nd to 7th.

• Yonatan Adiri announces that eToro has joined the Windex, bringing the total to 51 companies.

  "This week was really incredible. The week of June 2nd to 7th for the Windex, it's on fire." ([04:05])

• The Windex outperformed major indices, rising 3.8%, surpassing both the S&P 500 (2.04%) and Nasdaq (1.35%).

• Lemonade.com, an AI-driven Insurtech pioneer, led the gains with a 19% increase in one week and a 152% rise over the trailing 12 months. Yonatan highlights the company's resilience amid market speculation about the impact of generative AI on Insurtech firms.

  "Well at least according to this week. And the strong data coming from Lemonade, that's not the case." ([05:17])

• Novocure, a 25-year-old medical device innovator specializing in treating glioblastoma, experienced an 11% drop in market cap but remains a cornerstone of Israel's medical technology sector.

  "Novocure is a 25 year old company, remarkable medical device company that really changed the pathway of treating glioblastoma..." ([06:53])

Yonatan and Michal express optimism about the overall performance of the Windex, despite some individual setbacks.

Economic Projections and Gaza Humanitarian Fund (GHF) ([07:36] - [10:35])

Michal introduces a less positive economic update, noting that Israel's Ministry of Finance has downgraded growth projections for 2025 from 4.3% to 3.6% and for 2026 by an additional 1%.

• Yonatan Adiri emphasizes the significant economic impact of these cuts, equating 1.7% of Israel's GDP to nearly $10 billion. He criticizes the Ministry of Finance for releasing this information dishonestly during a sensitive period, eroding public trust.

  "The dishonesty of the Ministry of Finance. That's not the way you build trust..." ([10:27])

• The Gaza Humanitarian Fund (GHF) has come under scrutiny as media reports revealed that 700 million shekels intended for humanitarian aid were diverted from the Ministry of Finance. Yonatan suggests that while this strategy may be costly, it could enhance the prospects for peace in the region.

  "This may end up being a bit expensive and may have actually burdened the economy a bit. But overall if it works and it works well, this would actually mean that the odds of peace... are coming closer." ([09:35])

The hosts acknowledge the complexities and potential long-term implications of these economic adjustments.

Layoffs and Economic Signals ([10:35] - [16:16])

Michal discusses recent layoffs at eBay and General Motors (GM), affecting over 200 workers in Israel and globally. These layoffs are linked to challenges in the tech and autonomous vehicle sectors.

• Yonatan Adiri views these layoffs as mixed signals amidst other positive economic indicators. He highlights ongoing growth in Israeli tech companies like Nvidia and Novocure, suggesting that the layoffs may be more about corporate restructuring than a broader economic downturn.

  "It's a bit more noise and signal right now, but we're going to keep an eye on that." ([13:06])

• The discussion extends to aviation disruptions caused by the war, with Lufthansa Russia resuming flights to Tel Aviv but facing operational challenges due to missile strikes. Yonatan shares personal anecdotes about flight cancellations, underscoring the broader economic and social impact.

  "I had to come back from New York. My flight got canceled... So from a personal side, and also for many Israelis, summer vacations have been canceled." ([13:48])

• Michal expresses concern that aviation uncertainties could deter venture capitalists and business travelers, further impacting Israel's economy. Yonatan remains cautiously optimistic, attributing ongoing issues to short-term geopolitical negotiations.

  "It's a bit more noise and signal right now... but let's see where it ends." ([16:16])

Interview with Oded Ben-David on Iron Beam ([16:16] - [33:46])

The core of the episode is an in-depth interview with Oded Ben-David, Chief Technology Officer at ELOP, the Electro Optical division of Elbit Systems, focusing on Israel's Iron Beam laser interception system.

Introduction to Iron Beam

• Oded Ben-David starts with his unique number: 0.000002, representing the absorption rate of anti-reflective coatings on the optics used in high-power lasers.

  "Every piece of optics in the world has an anti reflective coating on it... these coatings absorb something like 0.1% of the energy... special anti reflective coating that has absorption of only 0.000002..." ([17:00])

• He provides his background as a Talpiot graduate, a physicist with over 30 years of experience in laser technology, underscoring his expertise in the field.

  "I'm a Talpiot graduate in Israel... I love lasers and I deal with lasers for more than 30 years." ([18:19])

How Iron Beam Works

• Oded explains the fundamental principle of the Iron Beam system, likening it to using a magnifying glass to focus sunlight to burn wood. The system uses high-power lasers to precisely target and disable incoming threats like rockets and drones instantaneously.

  "We are bringing energy in form of light... create the damage and burn it." ([19:15])

• He discusses the challenges of atmospheric interference, such as turbulence, and the technological solutions employed to mitigate these effects, drawing parallels with astronomical telescopes.

  "They do the same thing in astronomical big telescopes. They do the correction of the atmosphere..." ([20:56])

Operational Scenarios

• Oded describes a typical interception scenario: detecting an aerial threat, tracking it accurately, and deploying the laser to neutralize the threat before it becomes a danger.

  "So we need to track this target very accurately and then fire our laser at this target and cause the damage..." ([21:05])

Evolution of Laser Technology

• Yonatan reflects on the historical development of laser systems, referencing the 2008 debate between Iron Dome and the then-called Nautilus laser system. Oded explains that advancements in optical fiber laser technology over the past two decades have made high-power lasers more feasible, reliable, and scalable for military applications.

  "This is the technology related to optical fiber lasers... built like a Lego... stack them together... get the wattage that we need." ([22:28])

Limitations and Future Enhancements

• Oded acknowledges current limitations of the Iron Beam system, including atmospheric conditions and the necessity for precise tracking. He suggests that deploying such systems airborne could overcome some of these challenges by operating above atmospheric disturbances.

  "From the air, above the skies, you enjoy a much preferable atmosphere, much less interference." ([25:17])

• He highlights past and ongoing efforts to enhance the system's capabilities, including airborne prototypes that demonstrate air-to-air interception of UAVs.

  "We showed that we could shoot down UAVs from the air and enjoy the benefits of going to the air." ([25:35])

Economic Impact and Motivation

• Oded emphasizes the economic benefits of Iron Beam, noting that while the development and procurement are costly, the cost per interception drops to a few dollars, providing a sustainable defense mechanism against high-volume threats.

  "From the economical point of view, the kinetic interceptors are doing an amazing job... but you must go to something which is based on energy because then the cost of interception is, is a few dollars." ([27:17])

• He attributes the success of Iron Beam to the combined motivation driven by necessity and robust support from the Ministry of Defense, fostering an environment akin to a startup within a large, resource-rich organization.

  "We are 100 startups together because we are a big company... an amazing environment to do that." ([31:17])

Role in Modern Warfare

• Oded discusses the relevance of laser systems like Iron Beam in the evolving landscape of modern warfare, where low-cost, high-volume threats such as drones require equally cost-effective defense solutions.

  "We need something that can deal with those volumes and deal with those threats in a reasonable, economical way." ([31:34])

• He cites the increasing affordability and accessibility of drone technology, making energy-based interception systems essential for maintaining security.

  "To build all those threats is very, very easy and cheap... we need something that gives you a very low cost of interception." ([31:34])

Operational Milestones

• Oded recalls a pivotal moment in 2021 when Iron Beam successfully intercepting a UAV from the air validated the system's operational viability and technological prowess.

  "the test we did in 2021 when we shot the first, first UAV from the air, was really a touching moment." ([33:11])

Conclusion and Final Thoughts ([33:46] - [37:20])

The hosts wrap up the episode by reflecting on the significance of Iron Beam's advancements and their broader implications for Israel's defense and economy.

• Yonatan Adiri marvels at the dramatic reduction in interception costs from $100,000 to $5, likening it to reducing the price of a car from a Mercedes to a Nespresso machine, underscoring the transformative impact of this technology.

  "From the $100,000 interception to a $5 interception... it's absolutely incredible." ([29:19])

• Michal Ivram highlights the economic success of Elbit Systems, whose stock has surged over 60% since the beginning of the year, attributing this growth to the company's innovation and critical role in national security.

  "It's not that common for a company that's been around as long as Elbit... to see the kind of stock performance that we're seeing from them." ([34:53])

• The conversation briefly touches on the interplay between major defense contractors like Elbit and Rafael, suggesting that their collaboration fosters a robust environment for technological breakthroughs.

  "You can teach an old dog new tricks." ([34:19])

• The episode concludes with a mention of President Donald Trump's social media post criticizing the continuation of Elon Musk's government contracts, linking it to the competitive landscape of defense systems like Iron Beam and Golden Dome. Yonatan speculates on future competitive dynamics in the global interception system market.

  "If you have Iron Dome, then better would be Golden Dome... how do you beat that?" ([36:10])

The hosts encourage listeners to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast, and hint at future episodes that will delve deeper into Israel's innovative startup ecosystem.

Notable Quotes:

1. Yonatan Adiri ([00:11]): "Last week the country declassified the system's first generation which was successfully deployed operationally. Big news, $5 interceptions compared to $50,000 interceptions for IR. That's four orders of magnitude cheaper."

2. Oded Ben-David ([27:17]): "From the economical point of view, the kinetic interceptors are doing an amazing job... but you must go to something which is based on energy because then the cost of interception is, is a few dollars."

3. Michal Ivram ([34:53]): "It's not that common for a company that's been around as long as Elbit... to see the kind of stock performance that we're seeing from them."

Conclusion:

This episode of "What's Your Number?" offers a comprehensive exploration of Israel's cutting-edge Iron Beam system, detailing its technological advancements, economic implications, and strategic importance in modern warfare. Through insightful discussion and expert testimony from Oded Ben-David, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of how innovative defense technologies are reshaping Israel's security landscape and economic future.