Inventing a Better Apple

Summary

Podcast Summary: “Inventing a Better Apple”

Podcast: What’s Your Problem?
Host: Jacob Goldstein
Guest: Dr. Kate Evans, Professor of Horticulture, Washington State University
Release Date: May 14, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode of What’s Your Problem?, host Jacob Goldstein sits down with Dr. Kate Evans, a plant breeder renowned for her work developing new apple varieties, including the famous Cosmic Crisp and the soon-to-launch Sunflare™ apple. The episode explores the science, challenges, and art behind inventing a new apple that is reliable, delicious, visually distinctive, and able to adapt to modern agricultural and climatic realities. It's a compelling look at how deep innovation can occur even in something as familiar as an apple.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Evolution of Grocery Store Apples

[03:45–07:35]

• Jacob reminisces about the minimal apple choices of the past (Red Delicious, Golden Delicious, Granny Smith) and their underwhelming taste.
• Kate explains that advances in refrigeration technology and improvements in the food supply chain have increased apple quality overall—but the explosion of tasty new varieties is due to plant breeders introducing better apples.
• The adoption of "dwarfing rootstocks" enabled orchardists to experiment with new varieties more easily and economically, driving a wave of innovation.

Quote:
"We plant breeders have done our thing and... we've bred and released a whole load of new, improved varieties."
— Kate Evans [05:11]

2. What Makes a Great Apple?

[07:10–15:15]

• Consistency is crucial; the appeal of varieties like Fuji lies in the predictability of taste and texture.
• The breeding process prioritizes attributes such as crispness, firmness, juiciness, sweetness, tartness, visual appeal, storage potential, and harvest timing.
• Some apples might taste incredible direct from the tree but fail due to poor storage or shipping resilience.

Quote:
"There are selections... that are phenomenal. And you think, 'Oh my goodness, this just tastes wonderful.' But two weeks later, uh, yeah, so..."
— Kate Evans [07:54]

3. The Sunflare™ Apple: Innovation & Branding

[08:12–13:09]

• The Sunflare™ is described as a unique yellow apple with a pink blush—aesthetically distinctive, moderately crisp, and with a sweet-tart flavor profile balanced between Cripps Pink and Honeycrisp.
• Kate emphasizes the business importance of branding (trademarking apple names) since variety patents are finite but trademarks endure.

Quote:
"If you want to... have any way of controlling where that apple is grown, how it's grown, how it's marketed, et cetera, establishing a trademark brand name is really important because that's the thing you can keep indefinitely."
— Kate Evans [09:10]

4. Breeding Process: From Cross-Pollination to Store Shelves

[15:17–28:29]

• The Sunflare™ cross was first made in 1998 between Honeycrisp and Cripps Pink.
• Each cross yields thousands of genetically unique seedlings; only a handful may pass stringent quality, storage, and production tests.
• Fruit from promising trees are stored and retested for consistency year after year—a process that stretches over decades.
• Commercial launch is slow: first, clones are produced, then trees are planted and monitored for years before large-scale release.

Quote:
"It started back in 1998... So that means pollen from Cripps Pink dusting onto flowers of Honeycrisp... then waiting for that Honeycrisp tree to produce its fruit, harvesting that, collecting all the seeds."
— Kate Evans [15:17]

5. Complexity of Apple Genetics

[16:41–17:36, 29:24–31:53]

• While breeders can map some genes to certain traits, most qualities (especially "eating" ones) are polygenic and very complex.
• Despite advances in genetics and the apple genome, predicting how a cross will turn out remains imprecise and experimental.

Quote:
"You could imagine one gene having many different effects and those effects being different with respect to other changing genes. I mean, is that what you are finding for apples as well?"
— Jacob Goldstein [17:11]
"Yeah, absolutely... there's so much similarity between the... diversity of human genetics and apple. It's a little bizarre."
— Kate Evans [17:36]

6. Adapting Apples for Climate Change

[27:01–28:29]

• The Sunflare™ was bred for Washington state’s changing climate, notably increased summer heat and sunburn risk.
• Its "packout" rate is high—yielding a larger proportion of marketable fruit, including under stressful conditions.

Quote:
"Apples get sunburn... [Sunflare] certainly has got a very... leaving very little fruit in the orchard that... fails for varying different things. Sunburn being one of those."
— Kate Evans [27:54, 28:17]

7. Technology in Breeding: Progress & Constraints

[29:24–31:53]

• Advances in molecular genetics have improved breeders' understanding, but the sheer complexity of important traits makes breakthroughs slow.
• The dream of being able to predict eating quality just from the genome remains elusive.

Quote:
"I think that I'm more aware of the fact that the majority of things that we're interested in in apples are polygenic. The control is incredibly complex for a lot of these traits... I don't know that we'll get to that point within my working career."
— Kate Evans [30:26]

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Memorable Lightning Round

[35:03–40:44]

• Fruit for Fun: "Usually the bizarre grapes that I grow in my garden." — Kate Evans [35:12]
• Most Underrated Fruit: "I think pears... Most consumers have never experienced a really great eating experience with a pear." — Kate Evans [35:46]
• Most Overrated Fruit: "I think a lot of our blueberries... a little watery, in my opinion, and don’t have any flavor." — Kate Evans [37:40]
• Tragic Flaw Story: Striking red, ultra-crisp apple that was perfect off the tree but lost quality in storage—ultimately disqualified.
• If You Could Cross Any Two Fruits:
  • Kate: "I love cherry flavor... I would like to see that combined with ultra-crisp apple texture." [39:20]
  • Jacob: Clementine-shaped, easy-to-peel fruit that’s actually “watermelon” inside. [39:48]

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Notable Quotes

• "If you want to... have any way of controlling where that apple is grown, how it's grown, how it's marketed... establishing a trademark brand name is really important because that's the thing that you can keep indefinitely." — Kate Evans [09:10]
• "It seriously is [harder than you thought]." — Kate Evans on genetic prediction in breeding [31:11]
• "There's so much similarity between... the diversity of human genetics and apple. It's a little bizarre." — Kate Evans [17:36]
• "A new variety means you’ve got to establish a new orchard block…that’s a pretty big investment." — Kate Evans [06:19]

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Important Timestamps

• Start of main interview & introduction: 01:48
• Why grocery store apples improved: 04:31
• Discussing Fuji & consistency in apples: 06:42
• Breeder's heartbreak—great apples that fail: 07:54
• Sunflare™ branding & patent discussion: 08:37–09:45
• What Sunflare™ apple is like: 09:47–11:55
• Apple breeding process explained: 15:17–26:06
• Storing apples and consumer expectations: 26:06
• Climate change and apple breeding: 27:01–28:29
• Genetics, AI, and limits of tech in breeding: 29:24–31:53
• Lightning round (fun facts, crossbreeding dreams): 35:03–40:44

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Conclusion

This episode offers a delightful, nuanced exploration of how new apples are bred—the science, patience, and artistry behind creating a fruit that meets the demands of both growers and increasingly discerning consumers. Kate Evans reveals that innovation is not just about gadgets and code, but also about our connection to what we eat—and hints at the complexity of the genomes that deliver the crunch in your next apple. If you're wondering why your grocery store's apples taste so much better than in your childhood—and what “Sunflare™” might just bring to your fruit bowl—this is a rich, entertaining listen.

Transcript

[Narrator/Announcer]

This is an iHeart podcast.

[Kate Evans]

Guaranteed Human Small businesses are the pulse of every community. They bring people together, create opportunities and drive growth. Chase for Business helps business owners like you with personalized guidance and convenient digital tools all in one place. With that guidance and your determination, you can take your business farther and help build a brighter future for your community. Learn [e-mail] business chase for business make more of what's yours the Chase Mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply. JP Morgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC Copyright 2026 JP Morgan Chase Co.

[Jim]

This is Jim.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Hello.

[Jim]

Jim started advertising with iHeartRadio way back

[Jacob Goldstein]

in April and now I have customers out the door. And this is Sarah.

[Kate Evans]

Hi.

[Jacob Goldstein]

She started putting a portion of her

[Jim]

marketing dollars in podcasting back in June.

[Kate Evans]

Business is built booming.

[Jacob Goldstein]

That's why I'm working on a Saturday.

[Jim]

Want to be like Jim and Sarah? It's easy. All you have to do is own or manage a business and reach out to iHeart. Get started today at 844iHeart or iheartadvertising.com

[Jacob Goldstein]

Amazon Health AI presents Painful Thoughts I

[Narrator/Announcer]

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[Kate Evans]

Mm, yeah, but I'm not itching to go downtown and tell a receptionist I'm

[Narrator/Announcer]

here to talk about my downt.

[Advertiser/Commercial Voice]

Some things you'd rather type than say out loud.

[Jacob Goldstein]

There's no question too embarrassing for Amazon Health AI. Chat your symptoms and get virtual care 24.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

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[Jacob Goldstein]

Pushkin. I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is what's yous Problem? My guest today is Kate Evans. Kate is a professor in the Department of Horticulture at Washington State University, and her problem is this. How do you invent a new kind of apple? How do you invent an apple that grows reliably, that stores well, that can handle warming temperatures, and that, by the way, also tastes delicious and looks pretty sitting there on the shelf at the grocery store? With her team, Kate has in fact invented a new kind of apple. It's called the Sun Flare, and it is coming relatively soon to a store near you. This is the second apple she helped to invent in Washington. The first was the ambitiously named Cosmic Crisp Apple, which went on sale in 2019. And you know what's yous Problem? Is basically a show about innovation, about technological innovation. And I talk to people figuring out new ways to generate energy and treat disease and use AI and do all these classic things that we think of when we think of innovation and technology. But innovation is not just in These kinds of obvious tech driven things. It is in more or less everything. And it's delightful and illuminating to learn about how innovation works with something as ubiquitous and old fashioned as an apple, A piece of fruit. As it happens, over the past several decades, there has in fact been an incredible amount of innovation in apples. And if you're an apple eater of a certain age, like I am, you have observed this innovation. And so to start, I asked Kate why the apples you get at the grocery store are so much better now than they were when I was a child. So I want to actually start by before the stuff you've worked on, just for a minute, just to get the context, because I'm old enough to remember when there were three kinds of apples, at least in the grocery store. In the suburbs of San Diego where I grew up, there were Red Delicious, Golden Delicious and Granny Smith. And I didn't like any of them. Granny Smith were crispy, but too sour, at least for a kid to tart. And then Red Delicious and Golden Delicious were not delicious. They were bad. They're mealy. Sorry, Red Delicious. But it's true. Today there's a million kinds of apples and a lot of them are delicious. What changed?

[Kate Evans]

Well, I mean, first of all, I have to ask. It depends how old you are. Sorry, I'm 50.

[Jacob Goldstein]

I'm in my early 50s. I'm in my early 50 s. Fair question.

[Kate Evans]

So a couple of things, you know, as far as the, the food supply chain management is concerned, that's one thing. So refrigeration technology and being able to better store fruit so that the consumer gets a better eating quality, I'd argue that you probably would get a better quality piece of Red Delicious, Golden Delicious and Granny Smith these days as well.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Yes.

[Kate Evans]

But from a plant breeder perspective, which is obviously my whole deal close to my heart, we plant breeders have done our thing and yeah, we've bred and released a whole load of new, improved varieties.

[Jacob Goldstein]

I mean, that's the fact. But like, why did it happen? Like, was there a breakout moment? Was there one apple where everybody was like, oh, wow, we could make lots of different apples? Or like, what happened? Why did it happen when it did?

[Kate Evans]

I think in the US it happened with a, a shift in technologies of production. And what really changed a lot of US production was bringing in dwarfing rootstocks for apple, which means that you could grow a lower vigor tree. That meant that there were a lot of orchardists, particularly over here in Washington, where the bulk of the production in the US Comes from a lot of Orchardists who were interested in trying a few different varieties.

[Jacob Goldstein]

The dwarf thing, does it lower the risk for the grower? Is that why it's meaningful? It's like, well, you can just try a little one and it's not so risky. Like, why is that meaningful?

[Kate Evans]

Good question. A new variety means you've got to establish a new orchard block for a grower to invest and plant a new block. That's a pretty big investment. And so with the onset of dwarfing rootstocks, there was a change. Growers were moving forward and establishing new blocks. And at that time point, well, why not try a new variety as well?

[Jacob Goldstein]

Uh huh. The one for me that was the big shift was the Fuji. That was the first time where I was like, oh, there's a kind of apple that I love and it's reliable. Right. Like part of the thing with Red Delicious. It's the same problem I have with nectarines and peaches. You just don't know if it's going to be good. And like a Fuji, as long as it's not like bruised, it's pretty much always good and it always tastes the same and it's always crispy.

[Kate Evans]

Yeah. You know, and that, I think that's one of the. I'm glad you brought that up really, because that's one of the focuses that I have in my program is to have a consistent eating quality of new varieties that come through. And that means we do a massive amount of evaluation at different storage points through the season. So that piece of fruit for you as a consumer tastes great whenever you buy it.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Right. So the qualities you need in an apple are not just it's delicious when you pick it. Correct. It's.

[Kate Evans]

Yeah.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Are there apples that are just like incredible when you pick them, but they don't ship, they don't store, and so I'm never going to taste one unless I happen to randomly walk by some tree.

[Kate Evans]

Yes. Those are the ones that break our hearts as breeders because we, you know, they're the selections that they're out there as seedling apples and they're phenomenal. And you think, oh my goodness, this just tastes wonderful. But two weeks later, uh, yeah, so.

[Jacob Goldstein]

So let's talk about the Sunflare TM apple. First of all, I want to mention that when you wrote to us about it, we had some questions and you wrote back to Gabriel, the producer of the show. You put the little TM above the word Sunflare every time. So I'm sure the lawyers there will be happy to hear that. Why do you put the little TM every time you write the word sunflare.

[Kate Evans]

Well, because the name is a brand name, and most modern apples have a brand name associated with them. So like any piece of. Like any invention, I mean, a new apple variety is an invention. We patent it in this country. But a patent only has a certain amount of life. And to establish a new Apple variety and get it out into production and for it to be making an impact in production takes most of that patent life. And so if you want to kind of reap any benefits from the intellectual property and have any way of controlling where that apple is grown, how it's grown, how it's marketed, et cetera, establishing a trademark brand name is really important because that's the thing that you can keep indefinitely.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Yes. A patent is what, 20 years at this point?

[Kate Evans]

Yeah. Ish. Yeah.

[Jacob Goldstein]

But a trademark is forever, as long

[Kate Evans]

as we use it correctly.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Yeah, as long as you. That's why you're putting the little TM on it.

[Kate Evans]

Right, right.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Tell me about the sunflower apple. What's it like?

[Kate Evans]

So it is a unique yellow with a pink blush appearance apple. So I think as a consumer, you'd be able to see it and recognize it on the shelf in the supermarket, which is important.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Interesting. It's like a package. It's the packaging.

[Kate Evans]

Well, it is, yeah. Because, you know, you want to know, that's the one I like, and that's the one I'm going back to buy again. Right. And then it has. It's a sweet, tart balance with a fairly firm, crisp texture. So a firmer texture than cosmic crisp, but still crisp.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Okay. Is firm, not crisp. Is firm different than crisp? I don't think I have the language to distinguish.

[Kate Evans]

Oh, no, I'm not a sensory scientist. Yeah. I think there is something to do with the bite and the. The way that the flesh sounds awful. The way the flesh ruptures when you sink your teeth into it is a crisp thing.

[Jacob Goldstein]

And then what is firm?

[Kate Evans]

And then firm is how you chew it through your molars. And that's sort of the work that you're putting into to something.

[Jacob Goldstein]

The firmer it is, like the more you gotta chew kind of.

[Kate Evans]

Yes.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Okay, Interesting. Okay, so tell me more what it's like. I mean, I guess it's a cross between a crisp pink and a honeycrisp. So, like, I've eaten both of those apples.

[Kate Evans]

Well, I would say that honeycrisp tends to. You taste it as being sweeter and less tart. Crips pink. You probably have more tart. You know, when you're tasting that sunflower is somewhere between the two and also in terms of texture. So honeycrisp is an ultra crisp, but not as firm. It's a slightly softer apple in terms of firmness, whereas crisp pink is less crisp, but firmer. And so sunflower actually sits somewhere in the middle. I would say it probably is a little more like Cripps pink than like honeycrisp.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Okay, so the sunflower is just coming out now, right?

[Kate Evans]

Correct, yes. Yeah.

[Jacob Goldstein]

When am I going to be able to eat one?

[Kate Evans]

Probably not until 2029. Yeah.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Okay, so that means the trees are out there growing in the orchards.

[Kate Evans]

The first trees were planted, I think, last week commercially.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Okay. Congratulations. That must be a very exciting moment for you.

[Kate Evans]

Yeah, it is. Yeah.

[Jacob Goldstein]

So what was the problem you were setting out to solve when you set out to create the Sunflare?

[Kate Evans]

The main thing that we focus on is not so much a particular problem, but it is producing a variety that eats fabulously for a consumer. So something that consumers are going to want to eat, but also something that works in our production system out here in Washington and works for that supply chain. So it's particularly in terms of how the fruit stores in refrigeration. So it maintains its quality through storage. Gives you a great eating experience all year round.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Is there a particular apple that you feel like sunflair is going to eat its lunch? If I might.

[Kate Evans]

You could say it, you know. No, I can't. No, we aren't really. It's never a case of targeting a specific apple. What often happens is that there will be the quality attributes of that apple. So consumers of a particular apple might find that they like a sunflower better than other things.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Sure.

[Kate Evans]

But also it has to fit in with how the grower produces fruit. And usually that is when the fruit harvests. So the grower has a portfolio of varieties that harvest at different time points through the season so they can maintain a picking crew. So it might be that it sort of knocks something off that portfolio of varieties that the grower already has the back end.

[Jacob Goldstein]

It's a back end thing as opposed to a sort of front end thing.

[Kate Evans]

Yeah.

[Jacob Goldstein]

What you were talking about, like all these different dimensions that you're, you know, trying to optimize, more or less. And obviously there's a million trade offs. But just in. Just list off some of the dimensions, like whatever they are, crispiness when they bloom, how they store, whatever it is just. Just a list.

[Kate Evans]

Right. So from a quality perspective, firmness, crispness juiciness, sweetness, tartness. On top of that, you have aroma that's just eating. So then appearance. You've got size, shape, color, color combination, skin finish. Then. Yeah. As far as the tree's concerned, when it blooms, how much fruit does it set? Each cluster? Does it drop fruit? How easy is the fruit to pick? Some apples are more bizarrely more difficult to harvest than others. And then how well does it store? So does the fruit rot? Does the fruit have disorders that appear in cold storage or along the supply chain? There can be so many different things that impact it.

[Jacob Goldstein]

So tell me the story of the sunflower.

[Kate Evans]

Yeah. So it started back in 1998 with a cross combination between the honeycrisp and the cripps pink. They were its two parents. So that means pollen from crips pink dusting onto flowers of honeycrisp, then that spring, 1998. Right. And then waiting for that honeycrisp tree to produce its fruit, harvesting that, collecting all the seeds.

[Jacob Goldstein]

And let me ask a question. Is every honeycrisp different than every other honeycrisp, or are they genetically uniform?

[Kate Evans]

Yeah, they're genetically uniform.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Okay. But presumably every cross of them is gonna be different, Right? Just the way if you had two human beings and they had a thousand children, every child would be different. Is that correct?

[Kate Evans]

Absolutely, yes. Yeah, yeah.

[Jacob Goldstein]

And so when you're crossing them, are you just doing it like a bee? Are you picking particular genes from each parent that you want, or are you just saying, make a baby trees?

[Kate Evans]

It would be fantastic if we were. If our science was precise enough to say, this is my one apple target, and I want it to be exactly this. We are not at that point in terms of the science behind apple breeding.

[Jacob Goldstein]

I mean, can you sort of map certain genes to certain traits?

[Kate Evans]

Yes. Yeah. And we have. I mean, we have certainly got more of an idea of the apple genome than, you know, 20, 30 years ago. Things have progressed, and there are ways that we can select for certain combinations of those genes, but we just do not know enough about which of those genes we really want to have in each combination.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Well, and you could imagine. I mean, one of the interesting things in, you know, following the arc of the understanding of the human genome is how much is polygenic and how complex it is. And it's not like one gene goes to one trait. Right. You could imagine one gene having many different effects and those effects being different with respect to other changing genes. I mean, is that what you are finding for apples as well?

[Kate Evans]

Yeah, absolutely. And in fact, there's so much similarity between the sort of the diversity of human genetics and apple. It's a little bizarre. We often use humans.

[Jacob Goldstein]

What percent are we apple? Like what percent of the human genome and the apple genome are the same?

[Kate Evans]

Oh, that I really don't know.

[Jacob Goldstein]

I bet it's a lot, right? I bet it's a lot.

[Kate Evans]

Probably. Probably. You know, I think you're right. There's an awful lot of the traits that we were interested in that are polygenic. And so the single genes we've, we've sort of locked in quite a lot now we understand more about some of those. But of course the things that we're very interested in tend to be polygenic and therefore much more difficult to kind of play around with and really make fast progress.

[Jacob Goldstein]

So you're still like Gregor Mendel, just taking this one tree and this other tree and see what happens. We'll be back in just a minute.

[Podcast Host/Producer]

Being a small business owner isn't just a career, it's a calling. Chase for Business knows how much heart and effort go into building something of your own. That's why they make your business growth their priority. The team at Chase takes the time to understand your mission, where you are now and where you want to go. Their broad range of solutions is designed with you in mind so you can bring your ideas to life. From banking to payment acceptance to credit cards, you can conveniently manage all your business finances all in one place with their digital tools looking for tips and advice, their online resources are always available to give you the solutions you need to help your business thrive. See how your business can get stronger and go farther with Chase for Business. Learn [e-mail] business chase for business Make More of what's Yours the Chase Mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply JPMorgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC Copyright 2026 JPMorgan Chase Co.

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[Jacob Goldstein]

So, okay, so it's 1998. I know you weren't there yet. So as your predecessor is breeding crisp, pink and honeycrisp, which at that level it's like, sure, those are two good apples. And are they doing just an order of magnitude thousands of those trees and each one is different or hundreds or tens of thousands? Like how many actual trees are they growing that are that cross?

[Kate Evans]

Yeah, I mean that, that depends. You know, usually it's somewhere, somewhere in the around a thousand five hundred to one thousand, sometimes two thousand, usually not more than that.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Okay, so you get a thousand ish trees and then you got to wait for them to grow up and make apples. Very old fashioned, very physical analog.

[Kate Evans]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jacob Goldstein]

How long does that take?

[Kate Evans]

Somewhere around about six years, Five, six years before we start to see fruit.

[Jacob Goldstein]

So then in whatever, the early 2000s, you get the first apples coming off of this thousand or so crips pink plus honeycrisp trees. And then what?

[Kate Evans]

So then that's where the breeder. Our job is to evaluate and select. So that is a case of just walking up and down those seedling rows, seeing what catches your eye from an appearance perspective. And then if it looks like it's ready to eat, pick an apple and take a bite.

[Jacob Goldstein]

So it's really bad. No. You're actually walking through the trees, picking an apple and taking a bite.

[Kate Evans]

Yeah. And then spitting.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Yeah, yeah. And you, like, have some standardized criteria.

[Kate Evans]

You have a palette that's been trained for many years.

[Jacob Goldstein]

It's just I like it or I don't like it.

[Kate Evans]

Is it really that it's having that understanding of what is potentially acceptable and what is not, Then what happens?

[Jacob Goldstein]

How many yeses do you get out of that thousand little trees?

[Kate Evans]

Totally depends. It depends on what the parents are, you know, and I don't know the numbers specifically for that cross combination, but. But once we've. If something is a yes, then it's a case of just harvesting a sample of that fruit, bringing it back in, putting it in the cold store for a couple of months and then evaluating it. Because if it doesn't hold up for two months in a refrigerated cooler, then it's not going to make it as far as this industry's concerned.

[Jacob Goldstein]

So you do your. Does it store test and then what?

[Kate Evans]

Well, and then, you know, we want to look at it again the following year to see if it's. Because, you know, season to season things vary. So when we decide that it is, you know, it's maybe had a couple of years of good fruit quality on that individual seedling tree, then we propagate more trees, make a whole new tree that is a clonal copy. And we can do that for as many buds as there are on the tree. And often, you know, what we do, why it takes a long time is because we are looking for something that is robust. And without having multiple years worth of evaluation of fruit off that tree, you can't really make a call on it to say, yep, I'm confident that this one is robust enough to be able to move forward.

[Jacob Goldstein]

So it has to be robust not just in the sense of you can put the apples in the fridge for a couple months, whatever, in storage for a couple months. It has to be robust in the sense that the tree can deal with some variance in terms of weather and pests and whatever.

[Kate Evans]

Right? Yeah. And we have to have enough copies of the tree to produce bins worth of fruit, not just our single tree, you know, small sample of fruit. Because we want to do a lot more refrigeration storage tests. We want to be able to see, does that fruit store for six months? Will it store for nine months? And of course, every time you evaluate the fruit, it's destructive. You can't test the same apple numerous times because you've cut it up.

[Jacob Goldstein]

How long does an apple got a store to be commercially viable?

[Kate Evans]

What I look for is something that would be storable. It will store well for the full year so that it will have a space on the supermarket shelf for 12 months, and consumers can just continue to buy it all year round.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Like a gallon of milk. You just walk in and it's there and it's always the same.

[Kate Evans]

Yeah, well, you know, I mean, this is what is always amazes me is that our consumers really have this sort of detachment from the production of their food. They're not necessarily understanding that our apples are only harvested once a year.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Kate Evans]

But they want to eat them for 12 months.

[Jacob Goldstein]

So we're. We're testing them out. And, and amazingly, you get to the point where you say, can we store it for a year? And the answer is yes.

[Kate Evans]

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

[Jacob Goldstein]

So there was a story in the New York Times about this apple that talked about it as sort of optimized for climate change or, you know, adapted to work, but better in a warmer climate in Washington. Is that part of the calculus for this apple?

[Kate Evans]

It certainly is bred and selected for the Washington climate. Yeah, it is bred and selected for the Washington climate now, which in itself is quite a different production climate to everywhere else that grows apples in the world.

[Jacob Goldstein]

How has the climate changed the way the apple business in Washington works over the past several decades?

[Kate Evans]

I think that. We're seeing more impact of extreme heat in the summer. So we're definitely. Apples get sunburn.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Does the sun flare handle heat better than older varieties?

[Kate Evans]

Well, one thing that we measure very specifically is just how much of the fruit from the orchard we would get through the supply chain to the hands of the consumer. And. And it will. It's called its pack out or its grayed out.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Yeah.

[Kate Evans]

And that, yeah, it certainly has got a very. It's leaving very little fruit in the orchard that. That fails for varying different things. Sunburn being one of those.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Okay, what's the next apple you're going to make?

[Kate Evans]

Oh, after sunflower. I am not 100% sure I know what I would like it to be, but I' sure whether or not it would have what we call a fatal flaw. That's that sort of that one problem that's going to stop it from being able to go out big time.

[Jacob Goldstein]

It's what makes it a tragic apple.

[Kate Evans]

Yeah, I mean, it might be a big tragedy and we're looking at evaluating it just a bit further to make sure that it's good.

[Jacob Goldstein]

How has technology changed your work? I mean, you've been doing it for 20 years. Ish. We've got AI. We know a lot more about genetics than we knew 20 years ago. Like how has your work changed? Like how or the way you do your job even changed from when you started?

[Kate Evans]

I think in terms of just developing the molecular side of the technology to get us to a point where we do understand more about the genetic or genomic control of particular characteristics. And so, for example, you know, right now we're doing a whole load of work looking at, trying to understand why some apple varieties are more susceptible to sunburn than others and really trying to see which genes are expressed. Is there something that we can pick up that that would enable us to develop a tool for earlier selection for those characteristics?

[Jacob Goldstein]

Could you imagine in your, you know, in your career getting to a point where you can look at a genome and know what kind of apple it's going to make and how it stores and how it tastes?

[Kate Evans]

When I started about 30 something years ago, that's what I envisaged. But I'm not seeing, I mean, you know, I'm pushing 60. Will I have this in my career? I don't know. I think that I'm more aware of the fact that the majority of things that we're interested in in apples are polygenic. The control is incredibly complex for a lot of these traits. And so to be able to say just looking at the genome, what it's going to do as an apple, I don't know that we'll get to that point within my working career.

[Jacob Goldstein]

It's harder than you thought when you started it.

[Kate Evans]

Seriously is. Yes.

[Jacob Goldstein]

I feel like that's been a big lesson of genetics for everybody. Right. Like the Human Genome project was like around the time when you were getting started. Right. And everybody's like, great, now we know the genome, we're gonna figure everything out. It's like, oh, no, actually it's super complicated.

[Kate Evans]

Yeah. You know, and all the easy stuff we did right at the beginning. And so it felt like we were making these great steps forward and we certainly were. But you know, when you start thinking of the nuances of certainly the eating aspects of an apple. They are really complex.

[Jacob Goldstein]

We'll be back back in a minute with the lightning round.

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[Jacob Goldstein]

Let's do a lightning round.

[Kate Evans]

Okay.

[Jacob Goldstein]

What fruit do you eat for fun?

[Kate Evans]

Usually the bizarre grapes that I grow in my garden.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Oh, tell me about your grapes.

[Kate Evans]

It's just a native plant has grapes that taste like blueberries, but, yeah, that's

[Jacob Goldstein]

a grape that tastes like a blueberry. Does not seem like a thing to be dismissive about. It's like sort of an heirloom grape. Can I get one? They don't store well or something.

[Kate Evans]

I don't know enough about them.

[Jacob Goldstein]

So it's kind of there when you got there.

[Kate Evans]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jacob Goldstein]

What do you think is the most underrated fruit?

[Kate Evans]

Oh, I think pears.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Sure.

[Kate Evans]

You know, pears. Pears can be a phenomenal fruit, and I think that most consumers have never experienced a really great eating experience with a pear.

[Jacob Goldstein]

I feel like pears, for me, as a fruit lover, have a problem that is similar to the problem I have with stone fruit, which is it's hard to know what's gonna be a good one. I could use some branded pears, actually. Right. I could use the Fuji apple of pears. Why doesn't that exist?

[Kate Evans]

Well, partly. I mean, there certainly are many, many new varieties of pear.

[Jacob Goldstein]

There's some pear breeder who's yelling at me right now, saying they do exist. Well, what pear should I try?

[Kate Evans]

Well, there's a new pair that is being produced here in the state called Happy. The Happy pear. You should look for that. It will make you happy.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Are you just saying that because you have to as a Washington state state?

[Kate Evans]

No, it's nothing to do with Washington state, with wsu anyway. It certainly is produced here. Yeah, that's certainly worth trying. I think a lot of the challenge of getting a new pear variety out is that our pear production systems haven't modernized in the same way that our apple production systems have. And that gets down to the fact that there are not any really good dwarfing rootstocks for pear.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Oh, so that key breakthrough that started the apple revolution hasn't come to pears yet.

[Kate Evans]

Yes, absolutely. And so it's a real challenge for pear growers to switch varieties because they

[Jacob Goldstein]

gotta grow a bunch of big, expensive trees and that's a risk.

[Kate Evans]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jacob Goldstein]

What's the most overrated fruit?

[Kate Evans]

Oh, I kind of hate to say this, but I will anyway. I think a lot of our blueberries. I think our blueberries are improving, but I think that there is certainly quite a few on the market that are a little watery, in my opinion, and don't have any flavor.

[Jacob Goldstein]

I feel like blueberries are one where I still notice the seasonality. I live in New York, and certainly in the price, you notice it. There's some moment when they harvest the blueberries in New Jersey and you can basically get blueberries for free in New York. Like every corner store has them spilling out the door. And they're good. Are they way better? I don't know. They're way cheaper. That's what I notice. Was there some particular apple that was incredible to eat that just had a tragic flaw, wouldn't work, you know, commercially, that you still remember?

[Kate Evans]

Oh, there's. There's always a few.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Tell me about one. Tell me about one incredible apple that had a tragic flaw.

[Kate Evans]

Just, you know, a beautiful, really striking red blushed apple. Ultra crisp, really tasty off the tree, super juicy. All the things that you really want in an apple, but you know, two weeks later, it seriously isn't. Yeah.

[Jacob Goldstein]

If you could cross any two fruits and don't worry about scientific plausibility, just dream big, what would they be?

[Kate Evans]

Oh, good question. I would like. I love cherry flavor. I like a really dark red cherry. I think that's a phenomenal flavor. I would like to see that combined with ultra crisp apple texture.

[Chase for Business Advertiser]

Wow.

[Jacob Goldstein]

So it'd be like kind of an apple that tastes like a red cherry.

[Kate Evans]

Right?

[Jacob Goldstein]

Interesting.

[Kate Evans]

Sound good?

[Jacob Goldstein]

It does sound good. I'm going to tell you mine, it's sillier, but I still want it. It's the shape of a clementine. You know, a little citrus that's easy to peel, but when you peel it, what's inside is watermelon.

[Kate Evans]

Oh, yeah.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Cause I love watermelon, but it's hard to prepare. Like, it's always big. It's awkward with the big knife and the big cutting board. Avocados and tomatoes. Are they fruits?

[Kate Evans]

Yes.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Damn. Was lovely to talk with you. Congratulations on inventing an apple.

[Kate Evans]

Thank you.

[Jacob Goldstein]

Kate Evans is a professor in the Department of Horticulture at Washington State University and she's a breeder of apples and pears. Today's show was produced by Gabriel Hunter Chang and edited by Lydia Jean Cott. Our engineer this week was Hansdale. She we're always looking for ideas for who to talk to and what to cover on the show. You can email us at Problemushkin FM. You can find me on X JacobGoldstein. You can find me on LinkedIn. I'm Jacob Goldstein. Thank you very much for listening to the show and we'll be back next week with another episode.

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