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- [00:01]
Ana Zamora
At the Just Trust. We're working to make sure the United States becomes a global leader in justice and public safety innovation, not just a leader in our incarceration rates. There's so much opportunity to move us from a system of punishment for the sake of punishment to one that actually centers prevention, safety, accountability, rehabilitation, and healing. Right now, that means powering innovative programs and policies that significantly improve our institutions and make our neighborhoods safer. But we can't do this alone. Your support helps us continue to push for meaningful change in this moment. Together, we can build a justice system that works for everyone. Visit thejustrust.org donate to join us in this mission today.
- [00:52]
Steve Burns
Hey, it's me, Steve Burns. And I'm so glad you're here because you and I go way back, right?
- [00:58]
Ana Zamora
Yeah.
- [00:58]
Steve Burns
And look at us now like we're all grown up. We've got this new podcast where we talk about all this grown up stuff and there's special guests like Jamie Lee Curtis and Bill Nye, but for the most part, it's about you. I mean, it's always been about you. From Lemonada Media Alive with Steve burns is coming September 17th. Wherever you get your podcasts or you can watch every episode on YouTube.
- [01:24]
Clementine Jacoby
Lemonada.
- [01:32]
Ana Zamora
Welcome to when it clicked. I'm your host, Ana Zamora.
- [01:35]
I'm the founder and CEO of the Just Trust, an organization fighting for a justice system that works better for all of us.
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This season, we're showing you what a.
- [01:45]
Better justice system actually looks and feels.
- [01:49]
Like and why it should matter to you. We're going way beyond talking about what's bad and broken, because a better way is already happening right now. We just need more of it. Our guests are innovators and advocates, entertainers and government officials, and they're all on a mission to help the American justice system move beyond being just a tool of punishment to a tool of real accountability.
- [02:19]
Because of outdated prison systems, incarcerated people often don't have a clear path to getting out or to proving their rehabilitation, and might even overstay their prison sentence simply because of messy data. Our guests today is working to change that. Clementine Jacoby is the CEO and co founder of recidiviz, a tech nonprofit partnering with state corrections departments across the country to clean up data, deploy new AI tools, and help prisons do their jobs more efficiently and effectively. So far, they've helped 156,000 incarcerated people return home and have contributed to 19 states, saving more than 1.3 billion doll. By providing states with better and more accessible data, Clementine and her team Are showing us how technology can dramatically improve the justice system from the inside out, Empowering incarcerated people and the institutions responsible for their care with better information and better outcomes for everyone. Okay, let's get into my conversation with clementine. So, clementine, one of the first things I like to do on this show Is get a better sense of how people's early years shaped their perspective and value, sets around justice, right and wrong, and what the justice system is here for. How did your upbringing shape your understanding of this massive thing we call the criminal justice system? What is it and who it's for?
- [03:56]
Clementine Jacoby
Yeah, that's a great question. I grew up with a mom who worked in addiction medicine, actually, and specifically remember feeling the rise of the opioid crisis and watching her encounter that at work. And my dad was a political scientist, and so I think he really emphasized the role of systems in people's lives, but also the necessity of building big tents if you wanted to get something big done. He would often talk about how if you want to really make change in a democracy, you, need to stick with that change for a long time, and you need to be, like, really deeply engaged in listening to people that disagree with you. And then when I was a kid, my uncle actually messed up. He was a teenager and barely able to be tried as an adult, but he committed a nonviolent crime and no one got hurt. And I think my family thought for sure he would get, like, I don't know, community service or a fine or something. But he got a 10 year prison sentence, and so my family was pretty shocked. And then when he first got out 10 years later, he was 30 years old and had spent a third of his life to that point, his whole adult life in prison. And, you know, just a few months later, ended up going back in. And I think that was when I started studying the system in earnest, Because I realized that he was caught in a cycle that even to this day, my family has proved unable to pull him out of. Today he's 47 and still in prison. And so that was really my first introduction to the problem up close.
- [05:52]
Ana Zamora
Do you think that you had a different view of the criminal justice system before this happened to your uncle? How did that shift for you? How did this experience change your viewpoint on the justice system?
- [06:03]
Clementine Jacoby
I think it made it all feel more arbitrary. Like, I remember my grandpa just lamenting how he and the lawyer had gone about, you know, trying to frame my uncle's case and what it meant to be a knucklehead teenage boy and lamenting the judge that showed up that day and, you know, whether they were in a bad mood or not, or whether the particular argument just didn't work for that judge. And I remember really, it all of the sudden feeling much more arbitrary than it had felt before. And I think that that is a realization that so many Americans go through. You know, you sort of growing up thinking the justice system is very ironclad and very predictable.
- [06:47]
Chelsea Clinton
Right.
- [06:47]
Ana Zamora
And that it's isn't wrong.
- [06:49]
Chelsea Clinton
Right.
- [06:50]
Clementine Jacoby
It can't get things wrong. Yeah, totally.
- [06:52]
Ana Zamora
So this is very clearly the moment for you when it clicked. And I'm gonna go on a limb here, but is it fair to say that this experience that your family had really put you on a path, a career path, to years later, starting recidiviz? Tell me if that reigns true, and talk to us a little bit about what recidiviz does broadly and why started it.
- [07:20]
Clementine Jacoby
Yeah, I think that was the moment when I fell in love with the problem, as it were, but maybe I didn't yet see myself as any part of the solution at that point. I ended up studying computer science and cognitive science in college and then going to Google and working as a product manager because I cared about this issue. We had a small team of friends, really, and volunteers, software engineers at Google, who were scraping together criminal justice data just on nights and weekends. That project got found out by Leanne Burch, who was the corrections director at the time. She ran the North Dakota prison system. She invited us out there to see what it was like to run one of these systems, which, you know, corrections was nowhere on our radar at that time. We were interested in pulling together data for researchers and journalists and people who were trying to, you know, help other people have the experience. I had had this, like, moment of realization of, like, whoa. This system is much more bizarre and anachronistic than you could even imagine. So corrections was nowhere on our radar. But we visited North Dakota, and when we did, the thing that we saw was that what we had kind of framed as a transparency problem, like, all of the answers exist somewhere, and they're just not getting out to the world in a useful way. Seemed more like a modernization problem. You actually had these people, corrections directors and their staff, who were making hundreds of really consequential decisions every day. And the tools that they had to do that with were just like, they were so bad. And so that was when we actually spun what is now recidiviz out of this volunteer project at Google, and we made a nonprofit that was focused on building enterprise grade Technology for correction systems, which, you know, to this day is a confusing career pivot to explain to people. But it was like so obvious that that was the thing that needed to happen when we were there in North Dakota.
- [09:21]
Ana Zamora
You know, I think one of the, one of the challenges with the work of transforming the justice system is it's very easy to get mired in the problem because the problem is significant and overwhelming. And making that pivot to being solutions focused is exactly what I think we need to do across the country. And recidiviz is really leading the way on that and starting with something as simple and huge as solving a data problem and modernizing the justice system. And, you know, through your work. One of the stats that I was reading about that really, really struck me is that roughly a quarter of a million people are incarcerated or under some sort of supervision past their release date. So these are folks that have done their time, quote unquote, but they're still either in prison or they're under some sort of supervision. How does that happen? Clem?
- [10:18]
Clementine Jacoby
Yeah, that stat is exactly right. And like you said, I think one of the things that can so energize a group of people on a solution is when you find something narrow enough that you could actually wrap your arms around it. And this was the problem that we just like could not look away from. Essentially what happens is that in the United States, most sentences are not cut and dry. The judge may sentence you to 10 years, but he actually intends for you to serve five and wants you to earn the other five off by doing really important things like mandatory anger management training or cognitive behavioral therapy. Things that like, really matter and that we know, work and make our communities safer and make those people's lives better. And you're going to earn like a year off for doing each of those things, or you're going to, or something even more complicated like you're going to earn 15 days off for every 30 days of good behavior. These are like really well intended policies. And we pass them all across the country because the United States incarcerates more people for long longer than any place in the history of the world. And so the left and the right are both very aligned on passing these evidence based policies that would help us kind of safely shrink the footprint of this system and drive better outcomes. So all across the country of these policies, the problem is that every time you pass one of them, the place where you're earning time off for cognitive behavioral therapy is one database and there's this other database for good time and for earned time and for all of these different policies that may exist in a state, and none of them talk to each other. And so the very first problem that Recidiviz found and started solving was that we would enter a state, we would connect these databases, and when we did that, we could see from the math that many, many people were already eligible to be released and that could be released from prison, but it could also be released from this even bigger kind of dragnet of probation and parole that drives half of prison admissions in the United States. These are such large populations, about 4 million people, and we often don't think about prob. But the majority of people on probation are young men like my uncle, who, like, messed up a little bit, but maybe not enough to go to prison. And there are choices being made every day about whether to send a young man like that to probation, where they can keep working a job and keep building some earnings and keep trying to stabilize their life, or to prison. And we see much worse outcomes, typically when they go to prison.
- [12:54]
Ana Zamora
Two films, one powerful message Our justice system needs a new story. Sing Sing from A24 and Daughters from Simpson street are two new films that shine a light on the cracks in our justice system and the resilience of those impacted by incarceration. And while they are beautiful and entertaining, they're also calls to action. You can watch Daughters now on Netflix and Sing Sing in a theater near you.
- [13:22]
Chelsea Clinton
Is it just me or are things actually really scary right now? In the world of public health, every day brings another confusing headline, or yet again, a far fetched claim. Vaccines are somehow up for debate and parents are scrolling TikTok for medical advice. I'm Chelsea Clinton, an advocate, author, investor, teacher, and mom navigating this insane time right alongside you. I hope you'll join me on my new podcast, that Can't Be True, a show that sorts fact from fiction, especially on issues impacting our health. From Limonada Media and the Clinton foundation, that Can't Be true is out October 2nd.
- [14:00]
Ana Zamora
Okay, so I want to get back into this fragmented data that you were finding in our corrections systems in prisons. So pretend I'm a prison guard. Before Recidiviz came in, what did it look like for me? What is a day in the life of a correctional officer managing data in these systems?
- [14:24]
Clementine Jacoby
Yeah, so we really spend a lot of time with corrections officers, case managers, parole officers. And the thing that we've found is like, you have to design hand in hand with them because each system looks a little bit different. But to overgeneralize a bit. When you're a corrections officer, most of your job before recidiviz is just about security because you're so, so understaffed. What our tools instead shift the paradigm toward is that the day that someone enters prison, everyone who's working with them can see their shortest and most rehabilitative path to freedom. So, for example, everyone gets this roadmap to reentry where not only the corrections officer but the case manager can see, oh, this person is almost done with this anger management program. We should not move them to a new facility where they'll lose all of that progress because they're 85% of the way there. And that's going to earn them one year off. And that's going to allow that person to go home sooner, which is going to allow us to have enough staff to go around for the people who need more support. Then, as they approach the re entry process, a case manager will actually get assigned to that person. And again, case managers are super overwhelmed today. You might have a 300 to 1 ratio. And so maybe no meaningful case management is actually happening, not because anyone wants it to work that way, but because there's just not enough people to go around. And so now, especially with generative AI, we have tools that can interview people many months before they're released about their aspirations around employment and housing and education. And we can use that to generate a really tailored and individualized action plan for people that then connects them to the community, resources that are right for them. And so there's all of these different benefits that they qualify for that they didn't know about, and we can help them complete that paperwork. Speaking of paperwork, there's a lot of paperwork. And so another thing that recidivises tools do along the way is just complete the paperwork. So as an example, let's say that someone is on probation like I was talking about before, and they're actually eligible for early termination. And so we automate the paperwork and we make it just like a button click for that staff member to sort of review their news feed and see that, oh, 20 of the people on my 120 person caseload are eligible for early termination. Today I'm going to click this button, I'm going to get them off, and then I'm going to see all the people who just have one step left. So for example, maybe you've got 20 people who just need to send in a picture of their last pay stub and then you can send an automated notification to them that says, hey, Send in a picture of your last pay stub, and now you have another 20 people who qualify. And the reason this is powerful is because now those 40 people are off living their lives. They're not in that probation dragnet. But also for that parole officer who was trying to provide support to all of these 120 people, now they have 80. Right. And you can see that number start to tick down and through that, you can start to shift towards more meaningful support, where now maybe that probation officer actually has time to, like, pick up the phone and call someone's landlord to vouch for them to keep them in stable housing. So that's why the flywheel is important, because you're not only helping the people that were already ready to be released that had already earned their release, you're also helping everyone who needed a little bit more support from that case manager that was otherwise overwhelmed.
- [18:02]
Ana Zamora
So it sounds like Recidiviz is really identifying some really important things. Number one, better data is paramount to moving people more efficiently and effectively and safely through the justice system. Data combined with automated systems that help move away from paper documents and files, which is crazy to think that so many prisons operate like that in 2025. And what I'm hearing from you is that data plus those automated systems are helping individuals move through the system more effectively and safely. It is helping to alleviate overcrowding by again, moving people through. And it's also allowing caseworkers, probation officers, correctional officers to get back to the work of actually being more one on one with people, which all sounds incredible and so important. I've also heard you say that all of this work plays an important role in policy work and working with lawmakers to continue to improve our laws as well as implement laws. Talk about how Recidiviz's work goes into the policy realm. And how are you seeing that your work help kind of propel policy reform? Yeah.
- [19:22]
Clementine Jacoby
So one of the really interesting things that we see just being software engineers working in this space is that the tools themselves elevate for leaders, because, again, we're working really deeply on the inside. Our tools elevate for these leaders what their policy bottlenecks are. And those could be capital P policies, like actual laws that you might want to change, but they could also be much simpler policies that have kind of emerged for the department. We call these administrative policies. So an example is that, you know, we recently saw that Arizona didn't have any kind of remote supervision, which most states do. They didn't have any way in Arizona to let people check in by phone only or check in by online video only. And this is a really big deal because if you're trying to maintain a stable job and you need to leave your job in the middle of the day to drive to a parole office, you're both spending money on gas and becoming a less dependable employee, or needing to get childcare or all of these things. And so a lot of states, especially in the post Covid era, have some level of remote supervision. So Arizona worked with us to use the data from their system to say what would be the right way to calibrate the criteria for who should go onto this remote level of supervision. And we actually found that about 39% of people in Arizona, according to Arizona's own data, should be on this remote level of supervision. So they designed this new level in house and then they moved about 39% of people to it. And they used our analysis to calibrate that policy using their own data and then one of our tools to make sure that they were moving people consistently to that new level. So that's an example.
- [21:02]
Ana Zamora
That is huge. And the long term public safety benefits are incredible. When you are identifying 39% of a supervised population and, you know, implementing a administrative policy that helps set them up for success, I mean, that's huge. That's great for them, of course, but the bigger societal impact is significant. Wow. I want to start talking. You mentioned AI a little bit. But you know, AI is a thing we are reading a lot about. Many of us are using it on the daily more and more. And I want to acknowledge that there's a lot of fear around it. But I also think that we're starting to see it also as a helpful tool in achieving a broad range of goals, specifically our goals in the criminal justice reform movement. So walk me through in a little more detail how recidiviz has evolved with this new technology, this new artificial intelligence. What has that journey look like for you and for your organization?
- [22:05]
Clementine Jacoby
Yeah, it's been a really amazing couple of years. And I think we are seeing a particularly good fit between what AI makes possible, which is like a level of tailoring and individualization that wasn't possible before. A good fit between that and how can you help government fulfill its mandate better? How can you help it drive outcomes? How can you make it more efficacious? And for example, in the criminal justice system, we have always known that reentry is a local thing. Right. Like to do well. Coming home is such a hyper local wraparound sort of affair and recidivism is a very national organization. We work across 19 states and 46% of the country. And so a really concrete example is that we have this AI powered case planning assistant and it's live in all of the community correction centers in Utah. These are like transitional housing. And a dream has always been that you could connect people to the right resources when they're coming home. You could tell them every benefit that they're eligible for that's going to help them stabilize. You know, we just see so much overwhelm and recidivism and panic in the first 72 hours that someone is out because they're confronted with like 100 things that they have to do in the first 72 hours. And if anything goes wrong, they're going back to prison. And so we're really like focused on how do you help people through that moment.
- [23:42]
Ana Zamora
Also, it's not just that the first 72 hours are filled with so many decisions. This is after being in an environment for a prolonged period of time, years, where your every move was planned out. You had real, no decision making at all. So you're going from that to being slammed with so many consequential decisions. So I just think that's an important point to contextualize this 100%.
- [24:10]
Clementine Jacoby
You've gone from not deciding what time you wake up and what time you go to bed or what you eat, to now needing to fill out every form, apply for every job, do every interview, find a car, figure out transportation, figure out it's, it's very overwhelming. And you know, a dream has always been like deeply tailored case management, social work for every person. That's what would help them get through this. But we just have nowhere near, we have nowhere near enough social workers to do that. And so for the case planning tool, which is now live in several states, and I'll use Utah as an example, it interviews people using an LLM based chatbot many months before they get out. And so it's a way of sort of scaling this social work knowledge and this expertise and then letting every person have an hour, two hour, three hour conversation that they would never have with a case manager who's assigned to 300 people with an LLM that can then build an action plan for them. And I will say that when we first had a working prototype of this tool and were ready to bring it to market last year, I thought maybe everything would break. The demo was so beautiful. But when we brought it into this highly regulated, complex environment, what is more complex than reentry? Nothing I thought maybe it wouldn't work. And also I thought maybe people would really not want to talk to a bot. But I think what we've found is that the conversations they would otherwise be having are so rote and so scripted. You know, like when you go to a doctor and they just really don't have any time for you, and they're just filling out the chart while they're talking to you. A bit like that, except it's like, about every aspect of your life. Coming home from prison for 20 years, like, it doesn't feel great. And so that's the baseline. That's what we're replacing. And so what we find instead is that. That people really open up and they are really eager to be understood, and they are really apprehensive. There was this example early on, within the first few weeks of when we launched in Utah, of this guy. While he had been in prison, his life partner, his wife, was murdered, and now his five kids were scattered all across foster care. And his driving primary motivation was to get out and to reunite his family. And, like, maybe that would have come up in this, like, really quick, really scripted conversation with a human, but maybe it wouldn't have. And as I was reading the transcript of the conversation and looking at the action plan that it built, that driving force was in there right at the top, right? Like, we recognized that legally, you've gotta have housing to get your kids back. And, like, this is what you're gonna do to get housing. So I'm getting, like, emotional thinking about it. But it was sort of balancing, like, look, we see you and this is what you want to do, and everything is going to be architected toward that goal. And so that's the thing that I think is driving us to look at it is not that we are super techno optimists or so, so excited or think it's all going to be perfect, but that we have no other way of making reentry work. We know reentry doesn't work, right? Like, 8 in 10 people who leave prison one day come back. And so this is such a huge problem that you have to try everything that you can try.
- [27:33]
Ana Zamora
If there were a magic wand to create safety, we'd be using it already. But real safety is complex, and every community has unique challenges and opportunities. That's why we launched you'd've Got Options, a storytelling effort to show how programs like Cahoots in Oregon, the Baton Rouge Community Street Team and many others are working alongside local law enforcement to prevent violence, respond to crisis and build safer, stronger communities. The reality is we do have options, and these stories show us what's possible when we rethink safety. Visit our website@thejusttrust.org to learn more. What if the justice system wasn't just about punishment? What if it could support more productive lives, healthier families and and stronger communities?
- [28:24]
Clementine Jacoby
We changed the quality of life in the neighborhood homicides about 44% in the.
- [28:28]
Steve Burns
First couple of years.
- [28:29]
Ana Zamora
I'm your host, Ana Zamora, and I'll.
- [28:32]
Show you what a better justice system.
- [28:34]
Actually looks like, because it's already happening. Season two of When It Clicked from Lemonada Media is available December 10th. Wherever you get your podcasts. Hearing you talk about this case management tool, it strikes me that what it's helping to do is really hone in on the motivation. What is going to be the most motivating action plan to keep this individual focused on their reentry? So it's not some arbitrary list of to dos that may not feel motivating at all. It's all connected to this larger goal, the thing that they care about the most. That is huge. That is huge. And you know, I agree with you. I think that human case managers, a, don't have very much time, and B, we know that it's a very difficult relationship between folks who are incarcerated and staff. It tends to be an adversarial relationship. So many people that are in the justice system have been institutionalized from a very young age. So that's a hard relationship to navigate and to tease out that motivating factor and then create an action plan associated with it. I just think it's incredible that AI can do this. Very excited for where this is going to go. You said, how many states are you in?
- [29:59]
Clementine Jacoby
19.
- [30:00]
Ana Zamora
Geez, Louise.
- [30:02]
Clementine Jacoby
I will say one thing about that hope piece or what you called motivation, which is I really do think that motivation, efficacy, hope on the side of the person who is incarcerated, that that also in addition to automating paperwork and lifting up people who are eligible and fixing the things that need to be fixed in the system, that hope and delivering that hope does lead to different outcomes.
- [30:33]
Ana Zamora
And this is something you're doing in Massachusetts, correct?
- [30:36]
Clementine Jacoby
Yeah. We talked about how we work really closely with staff to design these tools. But a thing that has become possible with technology only very recently is actually being able to be in conversation all the time with people who are in prison all across our 19 states. And we recently ran a survey with over 10,000 people in prison and found that half of them didn't know Their release date and the technology that matters here is tablets. Like when we first started, people didn't have tablets in their cells and now they do. And so that roadmap to reentry that I described before, now you can sort of break the information asymmetry. And the staff and the people in prison can be looking at the same thing. And then when someone goes home and is on parole and they're hitting that overwhelm, you can be texting them and saying, hey, you have a court date, hey, you need to show up at your parole office at X time. Hey, do you have a ride to where you need to go? And you can be helping them avoid these like little traps that can lead them back into the system. So what we have seen, oh my gosh, like the feedback from giving people their information directly, which again only became possible in the last couple of years, that is the most incredible feedback. I think it will have the biggest impact on outcomes because people feel like their reentry can start on day one and they can be thinking about it and they can be snatching every opportunity that they're eligible for. Like we talked about policy. But those carrots, they don't really work if people don't know about them. Right?
- [32:17]
Ana Zamora
I mean, I think that is truly transformative. And this case management tool is, I think like a big step, but also a small step in facilitating that transformation. It's incredible. You know, it dawns on me that recidiv is a fairly new organization in the whole scheme of things. And in a very short period of time, you have managed to do work in so many places and built so many different tools. Do you think that you have reached a tipping point where the transformative work you are doing in prisons is an inevitability that the future holds, a more functional, modernized, data backed prison system? Like, do you think we've reached that tipping point? And if not, what is it gonna take to get us there?
- [33:08]
Clementine Jacoby
Man, I move two minds on this. I spend half of my days thinking, oh my gosh, we have so far to go. You can see how the reentry problem, for example, is just infinitely deep and the level of support that we're starting to be able to provide, that just like again, would have been a pipe dream from a technology perspective 24 months ago. It's just all possible now. So it just feels like a sort of quickly opening up and yawning chasm of opportunity everywhere that we're working in a way that's quite overwhelming because you're both trying to expand to new states. And you're like, oh my gosh, we're a tiny layer of Saran Wrap on top of every state we're working in and we need to like, go all the way down. So that's maybe how I spend most of my days, is thinking we're at the very beginning of this. And then another part of me goes to this, this convening that I was talking about, where all of the leaders come together. And in that room I'm more in the audience, you know, I'm sitting there, like, watching how they are using the data that they have from their state and they're comparing it to other states and we're handing out awards for, like, who has driven the most change with data and technology in the last year. And you're seeing these numbers and these points they're putting on the board, as it were, and you're realizing that, like, I don't know, when we started six years ago, I don't think anyone would have even been comfortable launching these tools for people directly in prison. And you think like, man, I guess this is the tipping point. Like, you look around that room and you think like, these are efficacious leaders who know where they're trying to go and they're picking point B and they're diagnosing their point A and they're like, they're figuring out their trajectory for how to get there and they're using our tools to do it. So maybe as I revise my statement, like, 80% of the time I spend in the first world where I think, like, ugh, we're just getting started and there's a really overwhelming amount of stuff to do. And then maybe 20% of the time I like, step back and watch how people are using these tools and how they're comparing notes across states and it's starting to create a little bit of this community of like data driven government, at least for this small part of government. And I think like, man, that's pretty cool.
- [35:23]
Ana Zamora
Yeah. Well, my opinion on the matter, Clementine, is that you have reached a tipping point, which is that cultural realization that there is a better way it is possible. Yes. We still have a lot of work to do, but I think it's going to get done.
- [35:40]
Clementine Jacoby
Thank you so much for saying that.
- [35:42]
Ana Zamora
Thank you so much for having this conversation with me. That was great.
- [35:46]
Clementine Jacoby
This was wonderful. I really appreciated it.
- [35:50]
Ana Zamora
Thanks for listening to when it clicked. To learn more about the work happening at Recidiviz, visit recidiviz.org, spelled R E C I D I V I Z.org when it clicked is a production of Lemonada Media and the Justice Trust. I'm your host Ana Zamora. Hannah Boomershine and Lisa Fu are our producers. Muna Danish is our senior producer. Bobby Woody is our audio engineer. Music is from apm. Jackie Danziger is our VP of Partnerships and Production Executive. Producers are Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Whittles. Wax Follow When It Clicked Wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.
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We want to hear When It Clicked for you. When did you start paying attention to the justice system? Maybe you were a victim of a crime and didn't get the help you needed. Maybe you also had a loved one who went to jail or prison. Maybe you learned about it through your faith community. Send us a voice recording on your phone. You can share your name, name or not, where you live and a little about the moment when the justice system came into focus for you. Reach us@infohejustrust.org want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads? Subscribe to Lemonada Premium On Apple Podcasts. You'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, Me, the Sarah Silverman podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe. Make life Suck less with fewer ads with Lemonada Premium.