Ana Zamora (2:25)

A lot of people think that when someone is sent to prison, that's enough.

Narrator (2:29)

That's the justice system working. We lock that person up and keep.

Ana Zamora (2:33)

Them away from society to keep everyone safe, and then we're good, right?

Narrator (2:39)

Not according to the new Deputy Director.

Ana Zamora (2:41)

Of the Federal Bureau of Prisons, Josh Smith.

Josh Smith (2:45)

Well, you don't lock up that kid that had a small amount of drugs for life or that kid that did have a gun, right? Well, that person could be a future murderer, but they're not. Yet. What are we doing when we have them? To stop that trajectory, what do they need to be exposed to? What do they need to see? What investment needs to be made in them like it was of me that wasn't made earlier on in my life.

Ana Zamora (3:14)

Over 97% of people in federal prison will return home to their communities at some point. So the question isn't whether they're getting out, it's who they'll be when they do. That's the driving force behind the Deputy Director's work at his new post.

Narrator (3:32)

How we can transform prisons so they can actually transform people. And he knows what works because he's been there, too. Deputy Director Smith was incarcerated at 21.

Ana Zamora (3:43)

Years old and spent five years in a Kentucky federal prison.

Narrator (3:48)

Since his release, he's built a $30 million company and has now dedicated his.

Ana Zamora (3:53)

Life to improving public safety through prison reform. Now he's the first person who has.

Narrator (3:59)

Been to prison to help lead the.

Ana Zamora (4:02)

Bureau of Prisons after his recent appointment by President Trump. Josh's journey is one that everyone should hear.

Narrator (4:10)

If you think people can't change or.

Ana Zamora (4:12)

That our prisons are too big and too messed up to change, listen in this episode.

Narrator (4:17)

Might just change your mind.

Ana Zamora (4:20)

Okay, let's get into my conversation with the Deputy Director.

Ana Zamora (4:27)

I like to start every conversation to get a better sense of how you thought about justice and crime and safety when you were growing up. I think it's really interesting to reflect back on when we were little kids and how we thought about the world as it relates to these issues that we now work on. So when you were a kid, what were you taught about crime and justice and safety?

Josh Smith (4:55)

For me, I don't want to say that my mother didn't try to teach me right from wrong. But not having a father active in my life, there wasn't that same discipline type situation set up to where, hey, you did something wrong and now you're. You're going to suffer consequences. Really young, my mother, single mother for a lot of years just trying to do the best she could, you know, trying to make sure she fed us while at the same time raised us. And two rambunctious boys are tough to raise. And so, you know, from early on, I'm, I'm sure I was told, hey, don't steal a piece of bubble gum. But the levels of that were pretty low, obviously, by how just even as a, as a kid, I was getting in trouble as a young teenager.

Ana Zamora (5:41)

Yeah. So tell me a little bit more about how that evolved as you grew up and into your young adult life. What did that look like for you?

Josh Smith (5:50)

Yeah, I mean, I think by the time I visited a juvenile facility at the first time when I was 12, I had some things not going on very well in the home, and I ran away three different times. That's when I visited a juvenile facility for the first time. By the time I was 16, I was pretty much on my own. I was doing, you know, regular things, Getting in trouble, vandalism. You know, I'm the reason why they don't have the 12 packs of coca Cola outside of gas stations anymore. Okay. So start small. And the next thing you know, you're. You're breaking into cars or buildings and things like that.

Ana Zamora (6:33)

Yeah.

Narrator (6:33)

And I.

Ana Zamora (6:34)

And I understand. You know, something I've heard you say before, the first time you entered federal prison, you said you had, quote, no plans to exit any differently than how you entered. Talk to me a little bit more about what made you say that and think that at the time.

Josh Smith (6:52)

Yeah, I mean, I just. I went in, I actually had, as crazy as it sounds now, my outfit, already planned out, had the friend who was coming to get me, and, you know, the. The. The party we were already planning. So I didn't go into prison thinking, gee, I'm just gonna turn my life around. This is gonna be great. You know, I did wrong. I got caught. And I was just in the mentality of I just. I have to be a better criminal. That's what I need to be. I need to be smarter, not get caught up, be a better criminal.

Ana Zamora (7:26)

So what happened that made you change your mind? Because at some point, you thought something else was possible for you or you wanted something else. So what made you decide that you could choose a different path?

Josh Smith (7:37)

Yeah, for me, it was an interaction with God's all I can say. I mean, I just. I had a change in my life that began to say, okay, what does morality look like? You know, God began to ask me this question, who do you want to be? And so I began to really take a lot of internal looks at who I was. You know, how. How did others view me? Why would they view me that way? So I went through a period of time of just, you know, of remorse, kind of a. Just a reflection time to say, wow, why would anybody want to be around me? Why would anybody want to, you know, unless we're doing wrong, what other value do I have? And so it was just a really unique time for me through that time of just kind of looking at, what does that look like moving forward?

Ana Zamora (8:26)

Well, Deputy Director Smith, it turns out there's a whole heck of a lot of things that make you incredible and why so many people want to be in your company, including me. That's so powerful, and I love that faith played such an important role in you seeing yourself and seeing that you could be anybody that you wanted to be, including leading our federal prison system. It's truly incredible.

Josh Smith (8:54)

That was not in the plans at that time. That wasn't even an imagined thought. But here we are.

Narrator (9:08)

Two films, one powerful message. Our justice system needs a new story. Sing sing from A24 and daughters from Simpson street are two new films that shine a light on the cracks in our justice and the resilience of those impacted by incarceration. And while they're beautiful and entertaining, they're also calls to action. You can watch Daughters now on Netflix and Sing Sing in a theater near you.

Gretchen Rubin or Lori Gottlieb (9:35)

Hello, I'm Gretchen Rubin. And I'm Lori Gottlieb. We're two friends, one a happiness researcher and the other a therapist. And we are here to tackle the problems of everyday life with all of you, from big issues to small. We'll share advice and fresh perspectives, and we'll also highlight responses from you, our listeners, to the questions we discuss. Whether it's that pet peeve that's been bugging you for years, a tricky dilemma, or just something you've always wondered about. We'll talk it through. The since youe Asked podcast from Lemonada media premieres on September 23rd. Wherever you get your podcasts.

Ana Zamora (10:09)

I want to now go to a really important moment in your life. I understand it was around 2021, around the of President Trump's first term, when something really incredible happened when President Trump pardoned you. And then a couple of years later, in the first couple of months of his second term, he appointed you as deputy director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons. You went from living inside a system to running that system years later. I can imagine how surreal all of this time period was for you, how surreal it has been. Tell me a little bit about what it was like to get pardoned and then years later, what it was like to be running the Federal Bureau of Prisons.

Josh Smith (11:00)

Yeah, well, I'll tell you, people, you know, all the time talk about the pardon and how that all come about. Did I know the president, did I pay for it? You know, all these things, he should have paid for it. I had never met the president. You know, it literally, it was one of those just God things where the governor took a. Took a notion. Several others wrote letters and said, hey, you know, this is going on and I'm sure there's a lot of things behind the scenes that happened. And then I was honored to get a call from the governor that said that the president had given me a pardon.

Ana Zamora (11:33)

Incredible.

Josh Smith (11:34)

And so from that day, I was already living my life as one that was going to, you know, do right anyways. But that really did give me the freedom to not have to be concerned or, you know, it was a full restoration. Now, I will say at that time, I thought, wow, talking about full circle, what else could I ask for that's done? And then got a call about this job and the potential. And so what an honor to work for a president who, who think so much of that they would even consider someone like me. And look at our prison system the way that it's looked at, you know, and I'm in full agreement. We have to be very tough on crime. This mindset that we can do away with prisons and no consequences for actions, that doesn't work. It just. It doesn't. I've been in prison with people that need to be there and really need a lot of help before they get back into our societies. Yet at the same time, you know, in the federal system, 97% of people are going to see the streets again. They're going to see our communities again. And so on one hand, the tough on crime to make sure that we're swift with justice and we make it happen, but then we're also restorative and understand they're going to be our neighbor. And so, yeah, I mean, you know, I never planned on. I was done in life. I didn't need money, I didn't need that. And I was going to work in the nonprofit space for a long time and just try to make my difference and study the best of corrections, never thinking that I was going to be asked to take what I was studying and be able to put it into use. But I can't even tell you how honored I am.

Ana Zamora (13:20)

Well, I mean, it's your calling. I really, truly believe it is your calling. Because what you just said about the reality of crime and justice in this country, that we need to take crime seriously and we need our justice system to respond to crime swiftly and appropriately. And we need to recognize that the experience in prison needs to change in order to make sure that, that 97% of folks who are going to return and be our neighbors are ready to do so and ready to choose the right path. And I think that is the vision that you're bringing into the Bureau of Prisons. And you've only been in this position for a short period of time. But I know for a fact that you have a strong perspective on what needs to change so that our federal prison system can better deliver on its promise of both safety and justice, but also return the federal prison system to be a workplace that is full of pride for the public servants who work in corrections. So they feel proud about their work and that they're respected in our society far more than I think they are now. So this is a big undertaking that you're signing up for. How have you navigated that and what feels really important to you about building trust and building those relationships?

Josh Smith (14:46)

Well, here's what I say all the time. I believe that there is no more important role in all of law enforcement than the Department of Corrections or this Bureau of Prisons, period. It's one thing to go out and catch somebody. It's a whole nother to change their mindset to where they will get out and be different. So I think the nobility of what this job is is one that doesn't get the honor and respect that it should from the community. Frankly, most people don't understand the role that corrections plays. It is a very difficult, tough job. But it is one that those that do it and those that do it the right way, I'll tell you, they deserve a lot of respect and appreciation for what they do. And frankly, they don't get it.

Ana Zamora (15:38)

You know, prisons are terribly understaffed, which makes the work harder and unsafe, and it makes the important work that you're talking about, which is how do we make our prisons a place of personal transformation? It makes it really, really difficult. I want to talk a little bit more about how we can run prisons better. You know, a way that fosters real accountability. Our jails and prisons right now, for the most part, at the end of.

Narrator (16:08)

The day, they're just a destination for punishment.

Ana Zamora (16:10)

Right. But as we've been talking, I actually, really, truly do believe that through your work and your leadership and so many others across the country, that we can transform our prisons, and they can be activated as tools of true accountability. Accountability growth, personal transformation, helping people get their lives back on track so that they can contribute to their families and their communities. So what tangibly do you want to see and that you think is possible.

Narrator (16:42)

To start to move our prisons away from punishment for the sake of punishment toward a place where people can truly choose to change their lives?

Josh Smith (16:49)

I don't just think it can change. I know it can change. Right. Unfortunately, most people have never left their agency or their prison or their Department. So they've not been able to see in our country or other countries what has been put in place and what works. And so once you see it, then you say, okay, all right, we have something here. We have a recipe. And so the things that I talk about aren't really new. I've not designed these or come up with these. I've just spent time and money and resources going and studying them and finding them. And so, number one, you've got to create a healthy workplace. And so that's really hard to do given the current way that it's set up. It's not easy. It is very, very hard. And I'll tell you, I took this job knowing that I wasn't going to win a popularity contest. It wasn't going to be easy. And frankly, I've been working harder on this job than I did getting myself out of poverty. But I do it because I know that it's possible. And as we create a healthier environment, a workplace environment, then what happens is we create a healthier environment for the people that are in there. Warehousing is not enough. Listen, if putting people in prison and writing a prescription, put them in a hole in a prison and they're going to get out and they're going to act great for the rest of their life, and we've just solved society's problems, if that was the case, I would vote for it. I would say, man, I've got a whole forum all to be in. Let's put them in there and then they're going to fix. But what kind of sense does that make? I mean, if you have any children, I've got four. You have to discipline and you have to teach. That's what's required. The prison is the discipline. Going there is where, you know, that is a big discipline. Be separated from society, separated from family. You don't get to choose the things you get to do every day. But if we don't show them something different, if we don't expose them to other things, frankly, not only are they going to be the same criminal, they're going to be better because they're hanging around with other criminals in there that have other ideas or other things. And so it is absolutely possible. I can take people all over the country to places of pockets that you're just going, wow, look at this prison. Look at what it can be. And so that's the motivation for me, what I say around here all the time, one leader at a time. Every day that I'm here, I'll Tell you, there's days this job seems very overwhelming. 121 prisons, 36,000 staff, and 156,000 inmates with a lot of problems. Right? We inherited a lot of decades of problems. But I'll tell you one at a time. And so that's just, that's what I come to work every day, you know, thinking, all right, how do we just, one at a time, one policy, one structure, one fix at a time, do the best we can.

Narrator (20:00)

At the just trust. We're working to make sure the United States becomes a global leader in justice and public safety innovation, not just a leader in our incarceration rates. There's so much opportunity to move us from a system of punishment for the sake of punishment to one that actually centers prevention, safety, accountability, rehabilitation, and healing. Right now, that means powering innovative programs and policies that significantly improve our institutions and make our neighborhoods safer. But we can't do this alone. Your support helps us continue to push for meaningful change in this moment. Together, we can build a justice system that works for everyone. Visit thejustrust.org donate to join us in this mission today.

Gretchen Rubin or Lori Gottlieb (20:51)

Is it just me or are things actually really scary right now? In the world of public health, every day brings another confusing headline or yet again, a far fetched claim. Vaccines are somehow up for debate and parents are scrolling TikTok for medical advice. I'm Chelsea Clinton, an advocate, author, investor, teacher, and mom navigating this insane time right alongside you. I hope you. I hope you'll join me on my new podcast, that Can't Be True, a show that sorts fact from fiction, especially on issues impacting our health. From Limonada Media and the Clinton foundation, that Can't Be True is out October 2nd.

Ana Zamora (21:29)

A lot of prisons across the country are really closed down. They really don't allow members of the public to come in and volunteer. And there are some prisons that do do this. And we've seen wild success in terms of helping the public, you know, the opportunity for prisons to transform and really, truly help people in the rehabilitative process, but also just to shine a light on what prison is and to break down some of those myths and things like that. So how do you feel about prisons having more of a porous, so to speak, kind of boundary between the public and what happens inside? Do you see that as beneficial? And if so, why don't more prisons do that?

Josh Smith (22:13)

Yeah, I do. I think. Well, I think the reason they don't do it is because, you know, they, they don't want people to see it and those aren't all nefarious reasons, right? I mean in some states, in some places, not something you're proud of. I mean they've not been invested in in a long time. So they've got, you know, they look rough, I mean, you know, roofs caving in or leaking or, or paint chipping off a wall. So it's not something that a lot of states are proud of or, or the, even the federal government. So the push is to hey, let's just hide it. And I believe in fact that you're way better off to be able to open it up. I've led tours, countless tours and it does a few things. One, it exposes the staff to others and allows them to show appreciation. In fact, many of the tours that I've led, I've been able to highlight some of the great things that the staff do. And people are just mind blown of what goes on in a prison that we have so many staff. It's not just security staff. We've got teachers, we've got VO tech training, we've got nurses, we've got doctors and dentists and gym teachers and all these people that are coming to work every day that could choose something different and frankly it could be a much easier profession. They're helping make this go around. And so by exposing them to the outside, frankly being able to show appreciation, it does a lot for them. Gives some pride in things that I believe they're missing because they're never able to be acknowledged. On the other hand too is it kind of makes everybody else look and go well wait a minute, we better take care of our place if people are coming in. And so that's the same. And then I think finally, I think some of the best ideas are yet to be introduced. And when you can get outside people, I love bringing in business leaders and people that look and go, hey, one of them, when I took them in once, I said, what's your feedback? And they said, man, it's a hopeless place. So what do you mean? He said, well the walls are gray, you know, like if you're in here, why would you ever even think you could get out and do well? And I thought about that and I'll tell you, the head principal of that, of that prison school saw that, heard it. Next time I took another group in, they had a hope wall and it had people on there that had went through classes that got out and that were already and it said like they're making $18 an hour, they're doing this job. So beginning to do, you know, show that hope. And so that's why I think it's so important. I believe lawmakers should go into prisons. I believe legislators should. I believe if you're voting on it, you should be involved in it and see it. I believe that community leaders and people should be able to have access and see that because, again, they're all gonna be their neighbors too.

Ana Zamora (25:04)

Yeah. And I'm really glad you brought up hope, because you're right. The business leader that you brought into that prison that reflected that there is no hope is right. They are not places of hope traditionally. And I happen to think hope is a critical piece of transformation. You have to believe that something else is possible, and you have to be able to have the courage to have that dream. Right. And hope is a critical ingredient to being able a dream. I think. I think there's a lot of ways that our prisons are kind of maintaining a hopeless environment. And one of those ways, and this is really important to me, is the way that prisons kind of use family visiting and communication with family and community almost as a form of punishment, meaning withholding that as a form of punishment in really ways that I've always been baffled me. I just think maintaining family connection and helping people to maintain family connection through visiting, through communications, all that stuff is such a critical part of the rehabilitation process. I mean, when my brother was in prison, he was so far away, it was impossible for us to visit, and it was not a place my parents wanted to take me as a little girl. Right. Talk about family. The importance of family connection in both maintaining the safety of our prisons as well as in. In the rehabilitation journey.

Josh Smith (26:34)

Yeah. I mean, I like to stick with data. Right. When I look at these things, I try to stay away from the feel good or feel bad stuff and just kind of stick with, all right, what are the facts show? And I don't have that data point right now, but there is hard, solid data that those that stay connected with family, it's a tremendous difference of recidivism rate. I almost want to say it's in the 30 or 40 percentile difference. Just that one aspect of it. And so it's proven to be important. You know, over 60% of men never get a visit when they're in prison. Over 80% of women.

Josh Smith (27:16)

80% of women never get a visit. Now think about that. And those are raw statistics. This is another reason why I push so much for volunteerism in prisons and getting local churches, local religious organizations, even local businesses and companies that can go in and do different things, mock job fairs and those things. Because we have people in prison that I say they don't have anybody to let down. Okay, so like, you and I now have people in our life that care about us. And, and frankly, if we had a moral failure, man, it would really upset a lot of people, right? I mean, we would be letting people down and we would hold our head low and just say, wow, man, I really, you know, I really affected that person that cared about me. But we have prisons full of people that have nobody to let down. They have nobody that is going to be happy for them or upset. And for me, aside only from my wife, it was volunteers that I looked forward to every week to be able to coming in. And it was those many times I found I didn't want to let them down. You know, I didn't want to have bad conduct last week and not be able to make that class that they're doing or something. And so you find those others. And I've seen this happen so many times in prison where people for the first time have somebody proud of them. They've never had anybody rooting them all.

Josh Smith (28:50)

That'S so powerful. They've never had anybody in their corner. And so many times, if we can just be that person, I'll tell you, we can fix a lot of stuff with just that. And so that's why again, I'm so intentional about volunteers and opening that up and getting that exposure that costs our system nothing, zero to bring in these people. But we gotta let it happen. And too often we have too many prisons and too many systems that look at volunteers as headaches or too much a challenge, and they don't do it. I look at it as a tremendous key to fixing this big problem. And I'm looking for every solution, especially those that don't cost us money to be able to help make that happen. And so I've just watched it change too many lives.

Ana Zamora (29:36)

I love that. Oh my gosh, that's so powerful and also like so heartbreaking what you're saying that a volunteer, a stranger, can be that person in somebody's life that gives them something to change for.

Gretchen Rubin or Lori Gottlieb (29:51)

Right?

Ana Zamora (29:52)

And it's so powerful and so beautiful. Josh, this has been such an incredible conversation. We are almost at time. I just have two quick little questions just to wrap up. If you could go back to your 21 year old self, 21 year old Josh walking into federal prison, what would you tell him? And what do you think he'd be surprised to see from you?

Josh Smith (30:19)

You know, I think I would just say keep believing that more is possible. Right? Just this doesn't have to be where your life ends. Too many days. I thought it was and just worked hard to convince myself. As I was reading the Bible, I used to say, hey, God, you've chosen the wrong one. I'll let you down. I'll make a fool out of you. If anybody would, it's going to be me.

Josh Smith (30:44)

I think that just, you know, understanding that everybody doesn't grow up like I did and that it can be different. And so.

Josh Smith (30:57)

One day.

Josh Smith (31:00)

You know, I'd have the opportunity.

Josh Smith (31:04)

To do that myself. And so now, with four beautiful children and grandchildren, I'm just so glad I didn't buy into the lie that so many said. This is where life ends for you. It's over. You're a convicted felon, drug dealer, no education. It's over. I'm just so glad that I didn't buy into that lie that was put on me so many times.

Ana Zamora (31:28)

I am, too. I am, too, Josh, and I think that your story is incredible. Your leadership at the Bureau of Prisons is going to be transformational for this country, for safety and justice and for everybody in this country. For those who work in prisons, for those who live in prisons and those of us who are on the outside. I truly believe that. Thank you for stepping into this role and being so courageous and visionary and being a doer because you are also a doer. You are getting things done and I am very grateful that you're doing the work you're doing. So thank you, Josh, and thanks for being on the podcast.

Josh Smith (32:09)

It's a pleasure to see you.

Narrator (32:11)

Thanks for listening to When It Clicked.

Ana Zamora (32:13)

When It Clicked is a production of Lemonada Media and the Just Trust. I'm your host. Ana Zamora, Hannah Boomershine and Lisa Fu are our producers. Muna Danish is our senior producer. Bobby Woody is our audio engineer. Music is from apm. Jackie Danziger is our VP of Partnerships and production executive. Producers are Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Whittles. Wax Follow When It Clicked Wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.

Narrator (32:54)

We want to hear when it clicked for you. When did you start paying attention to the justice system? Maybe you were a victim of a crime and didn't get the help you needed. Maybe you also had a loved one who went to jail or prison. Maybe you learned about it through your faith community. Send us a voice recording on your phone. You can share your name or not, where you live and a little about the moment when the justice system came into focus for you. Reach us@infohejustrust.org.

Unidentified Speaker (33:25)

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