When It Clicked: "A Better Way to Hold People Accountable with Josh Smith"

Host: Ana Zamora (Lemonada Media)
Date: December 10, 2025
Guest: Josh Smith, Deputy Director of the Federal Bureau of Prisons

Overview of the Episode

This episode explores what real accountability in the US justice system could look like—beyond mere punishment—through the transformative story and vision of Josh Smith, the first formerly incarcerated person to help lead the Federal Bureau of Prisons. Host Ana Zamora delves into Smith’s personal journey from prison to public service, his belief in rehabilitation and hope, and what systemic changes are needed to build a justice system that actually serves and safely reintegrates people back into their communities.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Early Notions of Justice and Accountability

• Smith’s Upbringing:
  Smith grew up in a single-parent household without much discipline or guidance about consequences, despite his mother’s efforts. As a teenager, he was frequently in trouble, which ultimately led to his incarceration.

  “Not having a father active in my life, there wasn’t that same discipline...from early on, I’m sure I was told, ‘Hey, don’t steal a piece of bubble gum.’ But the levels of that were pretty low.”
  (Josh Smith, 04:55)

2. Prison as a Turning Point

• Initial Mindset:
  Upon entering federal prison at 21, Smith had no intention of changing and even planned to resume criminal activity upon release.

  “I was just in the mentality of I just...I have to be a better criminal. That’s what I need to be.”
  (Josh Smith, 06:52)

• Catalyst for Change:
  An internal reckoning, grounded in faith, led Smith to reflect and reconsider his values and impact on others.

  “It was an interaction with God’s all I can say...God began to ask me this question: ‘Who do you want to be?’”
  (Josh Smith, 07:37)

3. Leadership and Transforming the System

• From Inmate to Bureau Leader:
  Smith speaks about receiving a presidential pardon and his surprise appointment as Deputy Director, emphasizing the importance of both accountability and the potential for transformation.

  “I’ve been in prison with people that need to be there...Yet at the same time...97% of people are going to see our communities again. So, on one hand, the tough on crime...but then we’re also restorative and understand they’re going to be our neighbor.”
  (Josh Smith, 11:33)

4. Moving Beyond Punishment Toward Growth

• Healthy Workplaces and Rehabilitation:
  Smith stresses the need to move away from simply warehousing people toward environments that foster personal growth—for both staff and incarcerated individuals.

  “Warehousing is not enough. Listen, if putting people in prison...solved society’s problems, I would vote for it. But what kind of sense does that make?...The prison is the discipline...But if we don’t show them something different, if we don’t expose them to other things...they’re going to be better [criminals]...”
  (Josh Smith, 16:49)

5. Making Prisons More "Porous" and Community-Connected

• Benefits of Opening Prisons to the Public:
  Allowing community members, business leaders, and volunteers into prisons creates accountability, brings hope, and introduces innovation.

  “I believe lawmakers should go into prisons…if you’re voting on it, you should be involved in it and see it. I believe that community leaders and people should have access and see that because, again, they’re all gonna be their neighbors too.”
  (Josh Smith, 24:25)

• Hope and Volunteerism:
  Volunteers can provide the critical support so many incarcerated people are missing, especially those without family connections.

  “We have people in prison that...they don’t have anybody to let down...aside only from my wife, it was volunteers that I looked forward to every week...I’ve seen this happen so many times in prison where people for the first time have somebody proud of them.”
  (Josh Smith, 27:16 & 28:50)

6. The Critical Role of Family Connections

• Impact on Rehabilitation:
  Maintaining connections with family drastically reduces recidivism, yet the majority of incarcerated people—especially women—never receive a visit.

  “Those that stay connected with family, it’s a tremendous difference of recidivism rate...Over 60% of men never get a visit when they’re in prison. Over 80% of women.”
  (Josh Smith, 26:34)

7. Advice and Reflections

• Message to His Younger Self:
  Smith speaks movingly about resilience, having faith in the possibility of change, and rejecting hopelessness.

  “Keep believing that more is possible. This doesn't have to be where your life ends...I’m just so glad I didn’t buy into the lie that so many said: This is where life ends for you.”
  (Josh Smith, 30:19)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “What are we doing when we have them? To stop that trajectory, what do they need to be exposed to?”
  — Josh Smith (02:45)

• “It’s one thing to go out and catch somebody. It’s a whole nother to change their mindset to where they will get out and be different.”
  — Josh Smith (14:46)

• “Hope is a critical ingredient to being able to dream.”
  — Ana Zamora (25:04)

• “We can fix a lot of stuff with just that [positive relationships].”
  — Josh Smith (28:50)

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Smith’s Early Exposure to Crime & Juvenile System: 05:41–06:33
• Initial Mindset Entering Prison: 06:33–07:26
• Spiritual/Renewal Moment and Internal Change: 07:37–08:54
• On Receiving a Pardon and Appointment: 11:00–13:20
• Vision for Federal Prisons – Accountability & Restoration: 14:46–16:49
• Why Opening Prisons to Public Matters: 22:13–25:04
• Role of Family and Volunteers: 26:34–29:36
• Advice to Younger Self: 30:19–31:28

Tone and Language

• Conversational, authentic, and deeply empathetic. Smith’s candid reflections and Ana Zamora’s affirming style create a tone that is both inspiring and practical. The conversation is filled with hope, realism, and a call for systemic transformation rooted in both accountability and compassion.

Conclusion

This episode makes a compelling case for a justice system centered on personal change, supported by community and hope, and held together by practical reform. Josh Smith’s story is not just one of individual redemption but a blueprint for policy: Prisons must be places where new stories—and futures—can be built, for everyone’s sake.