A Better Way To Right Wrongs in the Justice System with Maya Moore Irons & Jonathan Irons

Summary

Podcast Summary: When It Clicked

Episode: "A Better Way To Right Wrongs in the Justice System with Maya Moore Irons & Jonathan Irons"

Host: Ana Zamora (Founder/CEO, The Just Trust)
Guests: Maya Moore Irons (WNBA champion & activist), Jonathan Irons (advocate & exoneree)
Date: December 17, 2025
Podcast: When It Clicked (Lemonada Media)

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Overview

This deeply engaging episode explores what a better, more humane justice system could look like in America. Host Ana Zamora interviews basketball legend and justice advocate Maya Moore Irons and her husband, Jonathan Irons, who was wrongfully imprisoned for over twenty years. The conversation moves beyond exposing the system’s failures, focusing instead on lived experiences, relationship-building, hope, and proven reforms that point toward a fairer, restorative model of justice.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Childhood Perceptions of the Justice System (03:53–07:20)

• Jonathan’s Experience:
  • Grew up distrusting police due to negative experiences in his community.
  • Recounts being driven out of his neighborhood as a child by police, left in unfamiliar, potentially dangerous areas.
  • "First and foremost, I was taught to not trust the police and that they are not our friends." – Jonathan (03:53)
  • Ironically, as a child, he once wanted to be a police officer before witnessing their treatment of his community.
• Maya’s Experience:
  • Grew up with an idealized, positive image of the system; police were 'invisible' and presumed to protect and serve.
  • "If you're in prison, you're supposed to be there. And that's just how it works." – Maya (05:17)

2. Maya & Jonathan’s Connection and Its Transformative Impact (05:51–16:49)

• How Maya’s understanding changed:
  • Her extended Missouri family introduced her to Jonathan’s wrongful conviction story, leading to shock and disbelief.
  • Proximity to Jonathan radically reshaped her perspective—meeting and corresponding revealed prisons’ dehumanizing effects.
  • "When you see people and you form a relationship… you become more of who you're meant to be." – Maya (15:49)
• Jonathan’s reaction to meeting Maya:
  • Struggled with fear of abandonment, assumed people visiting would judge him.
  • Maya’s non-judgmental presence—"Like her spirit coming into my space affected me physically… I even cried, and I didn't know why." – Jonathan (16:59–17:59)

3. The Reality of Wrongful Conviction and Prison Life (07:51–09:39)

• Jonathan describes being processed as a 16-year-old and thrown into adult jail, forced to fight grown men, sentenced to 50 years without understanding his fate.
• The phone system was so expensive his grandmother lost her phone line trying to support him ($20–$30 per 15 minutes).
• "It’s like I'm being steamrolled into this system. I did not understand it." – Jonathan (08:57)

4. Maintaining Hope Behind Bars (10:43–12:24)

• Jonathan details how connection—both legal advocacy and personal bonds—provided hope and meaning.
• He became a ‘jailhouse lawyer’ helping others win cases, stressing the impact of positive relationships and small successes.
• On missing success stories: "Why are we not celebrating someone… getting up, going to work every day, paying their bills?" – Jonathan (12:09)

5. The Dehumanizing Design of Prisons & Barriers to Connection (18:44–21:22)

• Maya highlights how prisons systematically cut off communication and support, making simple interactions excruciatingly difficult and expensive.
• "You go into prison and you’re like, oh, this was designed to not be human. You start to really wrestle with… what does it mean to be human?" – Maya (18:44)
• She describes price gouging, remote locations, and intentional obscurity in prison operations.
• Both guests emphasize harm to all involved, including staff: "We are forcing correctional officers, police, prosecutors, etc, into these dehumanizing practices as well." – Ana (21:54)

6. The Emotional Toll and ‘Survivor’s Guilt’ of Release (23:22–24:15)

• Jonathan describes release as a "huge weight being taken off," but with deep grief for friends left behind.
• "It's almost like survivor's guilt. Like, I've been in war and I survived and… I would want that for everybody." – Jonathan (23:22)

7. Activism, Education, and the Founding of Win With Justice (24:41–27:50)

• Maya launched Win With Justice amid her basketball career, motivated by learning from Jonathan, her community, and books/films (e.g., 13th, The New Jim Crow).
• She emphasizes educating the public—especially about the critical role of prosecutors—and encouraging civic engagement.
• "I had gold medals, but I didn’t know who my prosecutor was… I wanted to talk about that and empower people." – Maya (25:41)

8. Systemic Solutions: Transparency, Accountability, and Culture Change (29:30–35:49)

• Jonathan calls for independent audits and increased public engagement in justice reform, noting it’s not a "doom and gloom" situation—positive change is real and possible.
• Both guests discuss systemic resistance to admitting mistakes, rooted in punitive culture.
• "There's very few role models of, 'We’ve done some bad things. Let’s make this right.' But we have a lot of role models of, 'Let’s cover it up.'" – Maya (33:11)
• They outline a new pathway: Tell the truth, lament, connect, problem-solve, and make incremental (‘micro’) changes.
• "Reality is when you tell the truth and try to do better, healing comes. Our story is a model." – Maya (35:49)

9. Prosecutor-Initiated Resentencing & Restorative Justice Models (37:11–39:04)

• Maya promotes prosecutor-initiated resentencing, which allows prosecutors to revisit and adjust unduly harsh sentences.
• Draws analogy to watching game film in sports: accountability and correction are paths to improvement.
• "All these championship qualities, put them in the prosecutor’s office where it matters the most." – Maya (38:40)

10. The Power of Simple Human Contact in Prison (39:34–41:27)

• Jonathan urges the public: make contact, send letters, listen, and build relationships—no grand heroics required.
• "One of the most important things a prisoner waits on in prison is a letter… Everybody's sad [when they don't get one]." – Jonathan (39:49)
• Proximity and compassion are powerful tools for individual and systemic change: "Be close to someone. Go and step into the fire with someone who's in the fire." – Jonathan (41:21)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On cultural failure:
  "We have a culture of, 'We made a mistake,' and we have no role models to know how to make it right." – Maya Moore Irons (33:11)
• On system design:
  "You go into prison and you’re like, oh, this was designed to not be human." – Maya (18:44)
• On the way forward:
  "Tell the truth. It's okay to tell the truth… Reality is when you tell the truth and try to do better, healing comes." – Maya (34:12–35:49)
• On possibility:
  "Change is happening. Believe it or not, it's not all doom and gloom… I'm a part of it, and I'm speaking into it." – Jonathan (29:30)
• Host's appreciation:
  "I love that. Thank you both so much. It was a real honor and a privilege to speak with you. I appreciate everything you're doing, sharing your story. It’s so hard and so vulnerable and yet it does move mountains." – Ana Zamora (41:27)

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Key Timestamps

• Intro and episode premise: 01:10–01:44
• How childhood shaped justice perceptions: 03:53 (Jonathan); 05:17 (Maya)
• Maya’s transformation through meeting Jonathan: 06:13–07:20
• Jonathan’s account of wrongful conviction and prison: 07:51–09:39
• Maintaining hope in prison: 10:43–12:24
• Dehumanizing design of prison and visiting obstacles: 18:44–21:22
• Jonathan’s release & ‘survivor’s guilt’: 23:22–24:15
• Beginning of Win With Justice: 24:41–27:50
• Systemic culture of denial and next steps for reform: 29:30–35:49
• Restorative reforms—prosecutor-initiated resentencing: 37:11–39:04
• Building relationships for change: 39:34–41:27

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Episode Takeaways

• Systemic injustices are deeply personal and profoundly isolating, but relationships form a bridge across despair, nurturing hope and prompting change.
• While the justice system is riddled with punitive structures, concrete reforms—often championed by those most affected—are already proving what’s possible.
• Healing, restoration, and true accountability require transparency, humility, and a cultural shift away from denial and punishment toward truth-telling and community support.
• Anyone, regardless of resources or expertise, can be part of the solution—something as simple as sending a supportive letter can make a world of difference.

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Listen and Learn More

• Win With Justice: winwithjustice.org
• Maya and Jonathan’s story: Breakaway documentary
• For more on justice reform: thejusttrust.org

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This summary captures the essential insights, personal narratives, and concrete reform strategies shared by Maya Moore Irons and Jonathan Irons—serving both as an entry point for new listeners and a roadmap for anyone seeking hope and meaningful change in the U.S. justice system.

Transcript

[A]

We want to hear when it clicked for you. When did you start paying attention to the justice system? Maybe you were a victim of a crime and didn't get the help you needed. Maybe you also had a loved one who went to jail or prison. Maybe you learned about it through your faith community. Send us a voice recording on your phone. You can share your name or not, where you live, and a little about the moment when the justice system came into focus for you. Reach us at infohejusttrust.

[B]

Hey, it's me, Steve Burns. And I'm so glad you're here because you and I go way back, right? Yeah. And look at us now like we're all grown up. We've got this new podcast where we talk about all this grown up stuff.

[C]

And there's special guests like Jam Lee Curtis and Bill Nye, but for the.

[D]

Most part, it's about you.

[B]

I mean, it's always been about you. From Lemonada, Media Alive with Steve Burns.

[C]

Is coming September 17th.

[B]

Wherever you get your podcasts or you can watch every episode on YouTube. Lemonada.

[C]

Welcome to when it clicked. I'm your host, Ana Zamora. I'm the founder and CEO of the Just Trust, an organization fighting for a justice system that works better for all of us.

[A]

This season, we're showing you what a.

[C]

Better justice system actually looks and feels like and why it should matter to you.

[A]

We're going way beyond talking about what's.

[C]

Bad and broken, because a better way is already happening right now.

[A]

We just need more of it.

[C]

Our guests are innovators and advocates, entertainers.

[A]

And government officials, and they're all on a mission to help the American justice system move beyond being just a tool of punishment to a tool of real accountability.

[C]

When WNBA star Maya Moore Irons took.

[A]

A step back from basketball in 2019.

[C]

She was at the peak of her career. Four championships, two Olympic gold medals, one of the greatest to ever play the game. She was only 29 years old. So what was behind her decision? For Maya, it was a fight for justice. Specifically the fight to free Jonathan Irons, a man who'd been locked up for over 20 years for a crime he didn't commit. Not a single piece of physical evidence.

[A]

Linked him to the scene. He was just a 16 year old.

[C]

Kid interrogated without a lawyer, convicted and.

[A]

Sentenced to 50 years.

[C]

After getting to know Jonathan, Maya and her family saw firsthand what most people how both human mistakes and intentional misconduct in the justice system can fail people like Jonathan and how hard the system makes it to undo that harm and and reach justice. They also saw how prison isolates people, cutting them off from the relationships that could sustain them. They learned that connection can mean the difference between hope and despair. And eventually, they won their fight for Jonathan's release. I'm so thrilled that Maya and Jonathan, who are now married, are joining me today. We're gonna talk about how the justice system can fail people from the very beginning. The power of relationships for people behind bars and. And what real justice could actually look like. Okay, let's get into my conversation with Maya and Jonathan. I'm really curious about how we all, as little kids, are taught about right and wrong and what the criminal justice system is there for. So, Jonathan, starting with you, how did your upbringing as a kid shape your understanding of this thing we call the criminal justice system, what it is and who it's for?

[B]

Well, first and foremost, I was taught to not trust the police and that they are not our friends. You know, my memories is them taking away family members that I loved or in my neighborhood. I remember. I remember one time me and my friends were out walking, and some police officers, a police car pulled up on us and put us in the back of the car, didn't handcuff us, and took us way out in this sundown town, New Melon, Missouri, and dropped us off in the middle. Like, we didn't know why he did it, you know, what was going on. And we had to walk back through that scare. We know we weren't supposed to be there at nighttime. You know, I just. I don't. I don't have any good memories. We would be at the park playing, and then the police officer would come up, and then everybody would run and disperse, like, oh, it's just no good memories. But what's crazy is in grade school, I wanted to be a police officer. And so I started to see, like, how they treated, you know, people in my area, where I'm from.

[C]

That's right. I think so many of us are taught that the police are there to protect us and serve us right? And that's reinforced so much in movies and tv. But the reality of it for so many is a very different thing. Thank you for sharing that. Maya, what about you growing up? What were you taught about right and wrong? And what was the role of the criminal justice system in your upbringing?

[D]

So I think my experience was very different than Jonathan's in that it was invisible to me while also having kind of this idealized picture of protect and serve, safe. But I didn't really have any real interaction with police. And so by the time I was in high school, before I met Jonathan, had the idea of, like, if you're in prison, you're supposed to be there. And that's just how it works.

[C]

That's exactly how I was raised until, until my brother was taken away. And then it was like, bam, everything changed. And my, my perception of it all was really confused. How did that change when you met Jonathan and learned about his case and his life? How did, how did that perception of the justice system change for you?

[D]

Man, my world was rocked over the course of 15 years. I was a superstar high school athlete, right? Going into UConn as the number one recruit. And my life had this kind of upward trajectory where I was just staying focused, trying to be a good student, trying to be a good basketball player. And then through my extended family that I grew up with in Missouri, they told me about. We were actually at a, a high school holiday tournament and they were telling me about Jonathan's story. And I just remember being like, what? Like how can a 16 year old get arrested and there's no ev. Real evidence and he's still there. Wait, what do you mean? Like, just being in shock of how, of learning about this wrongful conviction. And then I think from there leaning in to actually meeting Jonathan, going into the prison, being more proximate to the life of another human being, going through this, I just started to really experience and see even more of the realities of what our prison system and our criminal justice system, how it functions.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. So, Jonathan, you know, your story is just heartbreaking and incredible in so many ways. It's an example of how the justice system can truly fail people and society. And your story, as we know, is not a unique one, unfortunately. And so for listeners who don't yet know your story, can you share a little bit about what happened to you as that 16 year old boy?

[B]

Well, I remember, you know, getting arrested and taken and taken to an adult jail and they took me through, through processing, showered me, threw some stuff on me, gave me some clothes, threw a bump roll, and then took me to a holding tank. But yeah, I remember one of the correctional officers saying, hey, man, is he supposed to go in there? He's just a kid. He said, man, I'm just here to do a job. And then the door opened with a loud clang. And I'll never forget it. It startled me, you know, when I was terrified in there, man, everybody was looking at me and I didn't know how to process that. But I, you know, I thought maybe it might have Been a joke or naive things came to my mind and before you know it, I was moved to the dog wing with other dogs. I had to fight. Grown men in there, went to trial and I. Two years later, yeah, two years later, I remember. I still remember, man. When they sentenced me, it sounded like Charlie Brown talk. Jonathan Irons, we're here by sentence, you the one whomp wah wah years. And I looked at my public defender, I'm like, what did she say? She said, take it like a man. I went back to the wing and I told my guys at the wing what happened and they told me how many years I got. And I just, I just lost it. Lost it. I just cried and cried and cried and was just like, what is happening here? Like this whole time it's like I'm, I'm being, you know, steamrolled into this system. Like I just, I did not understand it. They gave me limited contact to my grandmother and then the phone bills were so high, she actually lost the phone because I was calling her. I needed support, I needed comfort. And they're like 20, $30 for a 15 minute phone call. She can't afford that.

[C]

No. And to be clear, you were convicted without any physical evidence linking you to this crime. No fingerprints, no DNA, nothing. You know, it's really striking just how much intentional misconduct was present in your case. And clearly our post conviction legal system is just not set up to recognize issues like that, let alone resolve them. Whether it's because of misconduct like in your case, or because of human error, which happens all the time in the criminal justice system. The system is not set up to resolve it. So we have a lot of work to do. But I think your story and the work that you two do is emblematic of what needs to happen. And you know, Jonathan, there's a thing theme in your story, in how you talk about your journey in the work that you're doing now that I think is really important, which is hope. Right. Can you talk a little bit about how you maintained hope in prison?

[B]

Well, first thing I had to do is I had to be in a place where I lost it all almost. And I was struggling with the reality, hey man, somebody's coming to save me. Somebody's coming to help me. You know, somebody's got to believe I'm innocent. They treated me just like everybody who was guilty, so it didn't matter. So when I started to realize I'm no better than everybody else who did their crimes and what was going on, it doesn't matter in this environment. Right now I'm here. I'm feeling the same treatment. And while I'm doing this, I'm walking around, I'm seeing people. I'm learning who they are by proximity. And I just had compassion for some of these guys because some of them became like brothers to me or father figures. And so I started to see that and the hope that in prison, everybody's hope. It's like, man, I want to be home. I want to be free. I want to take care of my family. So I learned law. I started helping people get their cases reduced, right some of the wrongs. And I was actually having success doing that. I would work on things in the administration and file complaints and work on that the whole time. I had friends that we all encouraged each other, like, hey, man, I know you having a tough day, bro. Keep your head up, man. It's gonna get better, man. You know what I'm saying? Look at so and so. He's doing good. I think one of the things that prisons are missing is there. There are not enough visible examples of success stories.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

Soon as somebody gets out and commits a crime, oh, look, they let so and so let this prison out. He committed this crime.

[C]

Hundred percent agree with you.

[B]

Let's talk about these guys that are felons, system impacted, that are living successful lives. And that'll mean opening up 10 businesses and all that getting up. Why are we not celebrating someone from doing a good job? Getting up, going to work every day, paying their bills, like something that.

[C]

Being a good parent. Yes, yes, I agree. We need to tell way more stories because the stories of the bad stories after prison everywhere are fewer than the good stories. But yet those stories make the headlines in ways that the normal, everyday, mundane. Going to work, being a good parent, paying your bills, contributing to the tax base, those are just not stories that are told. And I really want to change that. Jonathan should be high as well.

[B]

Let's talk about that. Let's do something.

[A]

If there were a magic wand to create safety, we'd be using it already. But real safety is complex, and every community has unique challenges and opportunities. That's why we launched you'd've got Options, a storytelling effort to show how programs like Cahoots in Oregon, the Baton Rouge Community Street Team and many others are working alongside local law enforcement to prevent violence, respond to crisis, and build safer, stronger communities. The reality is we do have options, and these stories show us what's possible when we rethink safety. Visit our [e-mail] to learn more. What if the justice system wasn't just about punishment, what if it could support.

[C]

More product lives, healthier families, and stronger communities?

[B]

We changed the quality of life in the neighborhood. Homicides dropped 44% in the first couple of years.

[C]

I'm your host, Ana Zamora, and I'll.

[A]

Show you what a better justice system.

[C]

Actually looks like, because it's already happening. Season two of When It Clicked from Lemonada Media is available December 10th. Wherever you get your podcasts, Maya, I wanna turn to you. You know, while Jonathan's life is rocked and he is in prison for a crime he did not commit, you are at the top of your game. You're heading into UConn. And of course, those of us who are huge women's basketball fans, we know you went on to have an incredible career in basketball. And last year you were inducted into the hall of Fame. Congratulations. It's incredible what prompted you to lean into his story, given all the winning you were doing in basketball?

[D]

Yeah, yeah. You know, I think the older I get, the more I realize how blessed I was to have the family that I had. I grew up in a middle class family in the middle of Missouri, raised by a single mom with a little village around me with my extended family. Even when I moved away from Missouri and went to metro Atlanta and ended up at UConn because of my relationship with that family, they told me about their life. And so my great uncle who met Jonathan when he was 19, my great uncle met him because he was. He had long time been volunteering through a choir program in the prison with the. With the guys, and so met Jonathan, saw life in him and just poured into him, challenged him to be a leader and essentially fathered him. That's how I met Jonathan, because I was connected to people living real life, going to the places that are hidden on purpose and saying, no, there's life here.

[C]

That's right.

[D]

Now that I'm older, I can look back and be like, I had incredible role models who were just regular folk doing incredible things. Right. So I was 18, about to be 18, and I went with my godparents who met Jonathan through my great uncle. And I just. I saw him and I looked him in the eye and I just listened to his life. And I wanted to be a learner. And I had the privilege of then becoming friends with this man for the next half decade, him being friends with me. And my eyes just opened to his life and his struggle. And when you talk to somebody or you're writing letters and you're staying in communication, you get to know people. People. When you see. When you see people and you form a relationship, it's hard, but you become more of who you're meant to be in that human journey and that human experience. And my life was forever, forever changed through that, through meeting and being in a relationship with another human.

[C]

Oh, God, that's so moving. Jonathan, what. What did you think the first time you met Maya?

[D]

What.

[C]

What was going on in your mind?

[B]

I think I was wrestling with the fear of abandonment. You know, I had all these friends before I came. Before I came to prison. And while I was in there, they all, like, faded away. So when I saw her, I thought she was gonna judge me. You know, you're in prison because that, you know, that defense is intimidating. Like, what are they trying to keep in here? You know, people get judged for in prison. They don't care whether you did it or not. But she came in and she just, like, softened me. And, like, just the way she looked me in the eye and saw me, you know, saw me as human. Like, it touched me. It's like I was almost like her spirit coming into my space affected me physically to where, like, I was. I was moved. And, like, I even cried, and I didn't know why. You know, I was like, what's going on here? And then, you know, we had fun. We played checkers. One game she won, but I got it back.

[C]

She's a winner.

[B]

I won that and ain't playing since I'm retired.

[C]

Y' all are making me cry. I mean, these connections are so important. They're so important to the person on the inside, the people on the outside. They're important to public safety. I think they're important to the rehabilitation journey in the. In the transformation journey. And, you know, you alluded to this, Maya. We know that the system itself can make it really, really hard to stay in touch. Besides the. The joyful parts of these visits, what were the realities of this visits? Were they hard? How about communicating on the phone? Like, what are the obstacles, the reality of visiting loved ones in prison? Talk about that.

[D]

Maya, this is a very important question. Because when you go from living in society and you're used to picking up a phone, not even picking up a phone, saying something, your phone recognizes it, and then it calls the person. Right, right. You're used to that. Used to getting in your car or walking somewhere and seeing your people and being able to talk and catch up and be proximate. And then you go into prison and you're like, oh, this was designed to not be human. Like, you start to really wrestle with the questions, what does it mean to be human? And what are the ways that we've set up our society to either dehumanize our process or humanize it? And so my purpose, my vision, my maturity started to, bit by bit, be clarified and formed around that question of, oh, I've seen what it's like when, like in my journey, people have come around me to build me up and to support me and to empower me to reach what I can reach. And I. And I did everything and more of my wildest dreams in basketball with that support, with those quality people, great coaches, great support, great family. And then you go into prison, you're like, oh, this is not championship culture. This is, this is bad. Like, what do you think is going to happen when you have it set up? This bad? And again, this is not an easy thing. I don't want it in our conversations for it to seem like we're bashing how or under appreciating how hard justice work is.

[C]

Absolutely.

[D]

Safety is. This is hard. Prosecutors have a hard job. Police have a hard job. Firefighters, social work, public defenders. This is hard, hard work. So let's not make it harder on ourselves than it has to be. And some of these systems and the culture that our justice system and prison has in place is self sabotaging. You make it so hard by having these dehumanizing practices. First of all, you're exploiting the poor. Right. Making prisons and these programs, whether it's getting food or basic needs foods and contacting your family exorbitantly more expensive than it needs to be. The fact that his grandmother couldn't call him because of the price gouging in these phone systems, the email systems, the letter writing systems. Right. The fact that you can't know what's going on in prisons. Yeah. Like you, you just, you can't hardly know what's going on. The proximity of where prisons are, you know, they can be hard to get to.

[C]

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[D]

That is coming to a small handful of people from the labor that goes on in prisons. Right. Like all these things that you see that are exploitative instead of restorative. That's right. I got to see it up close and personal. I got to hear from a firsthand witness over decades of him becoming well acquainted with this broken system. The violence. Right. The approach that they train the correctional officers with, to see the residents as animals, even treating them worse than animals, we would treat as our own pets. Right.

[C]

Like just dehumanizing practices, and it's dehumanizing for everyone. I think that's something we often don't talk about. And I really appreciate that you just brought into this conversation how hard it is to do these jobs. And the reality is the way we do justice, particularly around family visiting in prison, but across the board is inhumane for those who are in the families on the outside and for the public servants tasked with administering these processes. We are forcing correctional officers, police, prosecutors, et cetera, into these dehumanizing practices as well. And yes, there are bad actors, and clearly, Jonathan, in your case, there were bad actors, but there's also a lot of well intentioned folks that are going and doing their jobs, and these systems are forcing them into inhumane environments and unsafe environments as a result. And I think it's a thing we.

[D]

Don'T talk about enough.

[C]

And I think it's an important part of this story. So I appreciate you bringing it in. Jonathan, I want to move to you again because I was really struck by the footage of your release from prison in July of 2020. It such a powerful moment. I mean, I felt it and just watching it, I'd love to hear from your perspective, what did that feel like? What was going on in your mind when you finally stepped out of prison after being wrongfully convicted for all those years?

[B]

It was like a huge weight being taken off my shoulders. But at the same time, I was struggling because, like, man, this is. This, this ain't real. This. I got to be in a dream right now. Like, after going through that, like, my heart grieved because, like all my friends, people that I had, that we had survived prison riots and just the oppression and just the strangeness and difficulties. Like, guys that I grew up with, you know, I left them behind and it's almost like survivor's guilt. Like, I've been in war and I survived and like, I would want that for everybody. As we drove further and further away from the prison, I was just thinking about all the things that they went through. And I'm like, man, I don't know what I could do. And I had to like, loyal. I don't know what I can do for them, but, you know, best I can do is just live and be an example.

[C]

Well, something that you two are doing is you do a lot of really, really important work in this space. And Maya, I'd love to talk a little bit about your nonprofit Win with Justice. You know, you founded it in 2016, right at the peak of your basketball career. So what prompted you to also start a nonprofit that focuses on criminal justice reform.

[D]

Yeah. So I am going through my journey with my friendship with Jonathan. You know, it's not a public thing that people know about. It's just like my people, my family, we're walking with Jonathan. We're learning, we're fighting, we're growing, we're trying to help. Thankfully, I've got an agency that represents me with leaders who are also very passionate about social justice. So I tell them about what I've been learning, let them into this journey, and they immediately start connecting me with people that can help educate me. So I meet a man named Mike de la Rocha, and he is very involved in advocacy, helping public figures get connected with educating and grassroots organizations around their passions. And he introduces me to prosecutors. I sit down, have a conversation with prosecutors in LA and public defenders. I watch documentaries like 13th by Ava DuVernay. I read books like the New Jim Crow. And I'm just. I educate myself. So I'm getting an education through a relationship with Jonathan.

[C]

Right.

[D]

Powerful education. And I'm also educating myself while in between reading scouting reports and going to practice and trying to represent the Jordan brand. Right. Like, I am fully engaged. And then in the summer of 2016, violence is brought to our attention again with Alton Sterling, Philando Castile. They're, you know, killed by police. And our community is grieving. And my. My teammates and I decide to say something and say, hey, we are human beings who are hurting right now. We're not just basketball players. We're going to stop and say, hey, we have to be better. And so I think with a combination of my personal growth behind the scenes and then that very communal moment of lament and righteous anger, I said, I need to be more outspoken about my own journey with Jonathan. And through the resources that I had, Win with justice was born. And wanting to redefine what a win is in our justice system. Connecting my sports experience about winning, and I know what that looks like. But how do we apply this in our justice system, which, again, is about our whole community. That's right. And it focused on prosecutors, educating ourselves around the power that prosecutors play, because they really are the most powerful actors in our justice systems. They set the charges, they can over sentence, they can accurately sentence. They can say, hey, instead of throwing this kid away, let's put him through a rehabilitative program. Right. Prosecutors are very powerful, and so we vote for them. Oh, hey, no idea. I had gold medals, but I didn't know who my prosecutor was. Right. Like, that's where I was. And so I wanted to talk about that and empower people to be more connected to what justice looks like in their community. And one of those big leaders are our prosecutors. And so that's how Women with Justice was born, on top of using that platform to advocate for Jonathan's freedom. Right. So it kind of played a dual role of that. Hey, let's get educated and engage more while also raising awareness about this human being who needs to be home.

[A]

Two films, one powerful message. Our justice system needs a new story. Sing Sing from A24 and Daughters from Simpson street are two new films that shine a light on the cracks in our justice system and the resilience of those impacted by incarceration. And while they're beautiful and entertaining, they're also calls to action. You can watch Daughters now on Netflix and Sing Sing in a theater near you.

[C]

Is it just me or are things actually really scary right now? In the world of public health, every day brings another confusing headline or yet again, a far fetched claim. Vaccine are somehow up for debate and parents are scrolling TikTok for medical advice. I'm Chelsea Clinton, an advocate, author, investor, teacher, and mom navigating this insane time right alongside you. I hope you'll join me on my new podcast, that can't be True, a show that sorts fact from fiction, especially on issues impacting our health. From Limonada Media and the Clinton Foundation. That can't be True is out October 2nd. Jonathan, tell us what your story, and unfortunately so many stories similar to yours of cases of wrongful conviction. What does it tell us about the limitations of our systems to catch and resolve misconduct, prosecutorial misconduct or other types of government misconduct? And human mistakes like what do we need to do better to avoid mistakes like yours happening in the future? What needs to happen?

[B]

I think we need more transparency. I think we need, you know, just like the IRS would do an audit, we need someone to do audits in the system to make sure things are right. We need to stress test it and we need to make it understandable for the public because a lot of these laws are passed without people even knowing what's going on. And they say, oh well, the public does know. We've made it public. We put it up on C Span or whatever. The, whatever. The thing is, people don't watch that, you know, and then also the people have, we as society have a role as well. We need to be more involved. We need to know what's going on. So any chance that we get to inspire people to want to learn and figure out, like, we need to take opportunities to do that, because everybody has a responsibility here. It's not just on the legal system and the people that are in it, society, civilians, prisoners, everybody has a role to play in this as we move forward and make micro adjustments. And the change that's happening, it's happening. Believe it or not. It's not all doom and gloom. As a matter of fact, the prison that I walked out of, they are going through a significant culture change, and I am a part of it, and I'm speaking into it, and I'm involved in it, and I encourage and I support it. Anytime there is a move to dehumanize someone or a suggestion or a system, we have to look at that and like, hey, man, to be human is to be flawed.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

We need to make allowances for them to grow and change and figure things out. Because can you imagine a world where we would be held responsible for every mistake that we made and then put it on broadcast? That's right. We don't want that.

[C]

And, you know, I think another interesting thing about what you're talking about here is it's true on the other side, the government, prosecutors, police, also make mistakes. And yet what I have found, and I'm curious if you two agree with this. I have a lot of. I speak to a lot of prosecutors, and I've worked with a lot of prosecutors in my career. And one thing that I hear a lot is there is a resistance, particularly with prosecutors and police, to saying when a mistake was made. And that has massive consequences in human life. When mistakes are made, when convictions are wrong, there's a resistance to stepping up and saying, a mistake was made and we need to fix it. Why, Maya, do you have any, like, why do you think that that is the culture of the criminal justice system?

[D]

I'm, like, super passionate about culture, Right. Like, I've had championship culture experience. I've had great coaches, I've had great teammates, like going to UConn, like Masters at. Yeah. Just cultivating winning culture. And so I feel like I have a lot of experience in knowing what works and what is going to sabotage you. And then there's this path of trying to realize where we are as a culture. Right. We have inherited a culture that this land has had so much violence, so much dehumanizing cultural practices in the name of whatever you want to say, in the name of power, control, wealth. And so there's very few role models of, hey, we made a mistake, let's make this right. But we have a lot of role models of we've done some bad things. Let's cover it up. Right. Let's just talk about it. Right? That's a big part of the heritage we've inherited as Americans.

[B]

It's a culture.

[D]

We know it's true. Right. If you look hard enough, if you ask, if you talk to most people, we don't know how to say, I'm sorry. Let's make this right. It's not something we're wrong at. We're good at making the thing go away and putting on appearances.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

And so, first of all, we have to talk about that, Right? You don't go into UConn and just pretend like we're great. No. We go in and Coach tells us about ourself. We as captains, own our stuff. And then we can say to the freshmen, like, hey, let's talk about this. Because we can't go out when the tournament starts and get exposed. Right. And so real life is going to expose you at some point when you're in the tournament. We can't just push our mistakes to the side. It's on display. That's the beauty. One of the beauties of sports, I think, is it's honest. You are who you are, and what's happening is what's happening right in front of everybody. So let's be honest in our cultural pursuits. And so with the justice, the system, we have a culture of we made a mistake and we have no role models to know how to make it right.

[C]

That's right. And no permission structure to do so.

[D]

No structure, no cultural encouragement, no role models. It is structured to abuse power, to get away with abusing power. So this is where we are. We've experienced it. We've witnessed it. If you talk to enough voices to say, yes, this is what's happening, and you see it's true. So now what? Now what do we do? Right. First step, tell the truth. We're still in first step one for a lot of us. Tell the truth. It's okay to tell the truth. Yeah. Step two, you're not going to. You're not going to die. You're not going to go away. You're not going to be pushed to the side for telling the truth. The next thing we're going to do is we need to grieve and lament and feel and be human about the horrible things that we've come from. Number three, all right, let's connect and problem solve. Let's ideate, let's make some changes, like Jonathan said, those micro changes. Right. How can each of us find a way to get activated into making it better? So you make a mistake, you don't get uberly punished. Right. Because we come from a punitive justice system. That's why people who are in charge of the justice system don't want to tell the truth because they see what's happening to the inmates or the residents. And it's like, I don't want that to happen to me. So let's do something different. We have the power, we're in control to do something different and watch it work. Right. And so there's this fear around telling the truth and taking accountability. That is like literally the opposite of reality. Yeah. Reality is when you tell the truth and try to do better, healing comes.

[C]

That's right.

[D]

Our story is a model. It's an example of that. You're watching the work in the Jefferson City Correctional center where people are starting to train everyone as much as possible to bring in these humanizing practices. And the stats of violent. What is the stat that happened in the. In the first month it went from like 80 to 11.

[B]

Yeah, it went down really big.

[D]

It was like violent interactions. Wow.

[B]

Staff assault.

[C]

It is possible. Like, there's. I think another really important thing that we have to do in our work is prove that change is possible, because I think these. The problems in our justice system are so overwhelming. They feel sometimes like change isn't possible, like these systems can't change. And I think what the work that you all are doing is proving that change is in fact possible. It is happening and it is working as you just laid out, you know, and there are solutions out there that are so powerful. And I think one of the ones that I would love you all to talk about that you work on at WIN with Justice is prosecutor initiated resentencing, which is a very specific, like, technical thing that has had really incredible outcomes. Can you share a little bit about what prosecutor initiated resentencing is and what is the power behind it?

[D]

Yeah. So I got educated about this group and this idea through again, Mike and my people who helped me learn and give me encouragement of like, hey, there are people out here trying to do better, get connected with them. And so we have partnered with for the people and try to, you know, tell as many people about it as we can, because they are empowering cultural changes in prosecutors offices that give a vision, give an imagination for what it could be. And what it could be is, hey, this kid, this young person, or this human being was over sentenced Right. This is hyper punitive. And this isn't. Not. This isn't going to bring restoration, redemption or this person has changed their life and they need to be free. Right? So let's do something to actually match what's happening to them to reality. Right? And so this is. I mean, God bless them, right? To go in and say, hey, I made this mistake. You know, we're in a basketball season, we play a game, we make mistakes, we go and we watch the film. Coaches pointing out these things, the captains are pointing out these things, anybody is pointing out the mistakes, and we say, oh, all right, this doesn't feel good to watch this film, but let's go out and practice and work on this.

[B]

That's right.

[D]

And then we go out and we're motivated. Right?

[C]

It's like, yeah, that's how you get great.

[D]

That's how you get better. Right. Like, this is not complicated to understand. It just takes some humility, some perseverance, some creativity, some collaboration. Right. All these championship qualities, put them in the prosecutor's office where it matters the most. It matters the most. A society is judged by how they treat their most vulnerable.

[C]

So as we start to wrap up, Jonathan, you know, you had this incredible support system with Maya and her family while you were incarcerated wrongly. But not everyone is so fortunate to have that. How do we make sure people who are in prison have these kinds of connections while they're inside? How do we take what worked for you and scale it, amplify it, and build it into every prison in the United States?

[B]

Well, I would say the people who don't have any knowledge on how to do it need to talk to the people who do have knowledge in doing it. So we need to bridge the gap, maybe have workshops and groups where people talk and we can just have a conversation about what works and what doesn't. One of the most important things that a prisoner waits on in prison is a letter. A letter is probably the most important thing a prisoner can get. When the mailman walks by and you ain't got no mail, everybody. Everybody's sad. I'm telling you right now. Pictures have. You don't have to. You don't have to kick the door down. Just have a conversation with a guy or a woman or, you know, that's in prison, that system impacted. Talk about your life. Ask them questions about their life, because you need to know what's going on in the world. Just that social engagement is so critical. And in places where you can advocate and bring about change or weigh in and have a conversation. Don't close your mouth. Open your mouth and share your experience, because that's the only way we're going to move forward. Everybody who's doing this stuff, we need to seek each other out and work together and basically unify and talk about what works and what doesn't work, about experiences and then you to recruit. Keep the invitation open for anybody that wants to do something but just doesn't know how. Because you don't have to break the bank. You don't have to be the president. You don't have to be almighty and excellent.

[C]

Everybody has a world.

[B]

Before I met Maya Moore, there was two people from a guy who's been doing prison ministry. He did prison Ministry for 30 years before he met me, came in and believed in me. He came in proximity. That's the best way I can say it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Be close to someone. Go and step into the fire with someone who's in the fire.

[C]

That's right. I love that. Thank you both so much. It was a real honor and a privilege to speak with you. I appreciate everything you're doing, sharing your story. It's so hard and so vulnerable and yet it does move mountains.

[D]

Thank you so much.

[A]

Thanks for listening to When It Clicked.

[C]

Check out Maya and Jonathan's nonprofit win with [e-mail] and I encourage you to stream their documentary. Breakaway When It Clicked is a production of Lemonada Media and the Just Trust Trust. I'm your host. Ana Zamora. Hannah Boomershine and Lisa Fu are our producers. Muna Danish is our senior producer. Bobby Woody is our audio engineer. Music is from apm. Jackie Danziger is our VP of partnerships and production executive. Producers are Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Whittles. Wax Follow When It Clicked wherever you get your podcasts or listen ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.

[A]

At the Just Trust, we're working to make sure the United States becomes a global leader in justice and public safety innovation, not just a leader in our incarceration rates. There's so much opportunity to move us from a system of punishment for the sake of punishment to one that actually centers prevention, safety, accountability, rehabilitation and healing. Right now, that means powering innovative programs and policies that significantly improve our institutions and make our neighborhoods safer. But we can't do this alone. Your support helps us continue to push for meaningful change in this moment. Together, we can build a justice system that works for everyone. Visit thejustrust.org/donate to join us in this mission today. Want to listen to your favorite Lemonada shows without the ads. Subscribe to Lemonada Premium on Apple Podcasts. You'll get ad free episodes and exclusive bonus content from shows like Wiser Than Me with Julia Louis Dreyfus, Fail Better with David Duchovny, the Sarah Silverman Podcast, and so many more. It's a great way to support the work we do and treat yourself to a smoother, uninterrupted listening experience. Just head to any Lemonada show feed on Apple Podcasts and hit subscribe. Make life suck less with fewer ads with Lemonada Premium.