Larry Miller: From the Streets to the Boardroom

Summary

Podcast Summary: When It Clicked – Larry Miller: From the Streets to the Boardroom

Date: February 5, 2025
Host: Ana Zamora (Founder & CEO, The Just Trust)
Guest: Larry Miller (Chairman, Jordan Brand at Nike; Author, My Secret Journey from the Streets to the Boardroom)

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Episode Overview

This episode of When It Clicked delves into the personal and professional journey of Larry Miller, whose story illustrates the transformative power of second chances and the critical importance of redemption within the justice system. From his early life in West Philadelphia, through incarceration for second-degree murder at age 16, to his meteoric rise as an executive at Nike, Larry’s life challenges prevailing narratives about crime, punishment, and opportunity in America. Host Ana Zamora leverages Larry’s experience to explore what a more humane and effective justice system could look like, underlining the role of education, rehabilitation, and holistic accountability for safer, stronger communities.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Larry’s Upbringing and Entry into the Justice System

Timestamps: 03:28 – 07:25

• Background: Larry grew up in West Philadelphia, excelling in school until the lure of the streets and gang involvement led him astray at age 12.

• Turning Point: At 16, while intoxicated and part of a gang, Larry shot and killed another youth, leading to a conviction for second-degree murder and a sentence of four and a half to 20 years.

• First Contact with Police:

  “The first time policeman ever pulled a gun on me, I was 12 years old...stop or I’ll blow your brains out.”
  (Larry Miller, 07:25)

• Cycle of Incarceration: After release, Larry cycled in and out of jail, revealing how normalized incarceration had become in his community.

  "Every time I went back to jail, it was the same people, and it became normal.”
  (Larry Miller, 08:17)

2. The Role of Education and Breaking the Cycle

Timestamps: 08:26 – 11:51

• Catalyst for Change: The birth of his daughter while incarcerated prompted Larry to seek a different path.

  "When I discovered education, that became my way out."
  (Larry Miller, 08:35)

• Programs in Prison: He leveraged in-prison educational programs—earning his GED, becoming valedictorian, getting an associate's degree, and ultimately a bachelor's from Temple University (in accounting).

• Barrier of Disclosure: After being denied a position at Arthur Anderson due to his criminal record, Larry opted not to volunteer information about his past in future professional settings to preserve job prospects—at significant personal cost.

  “I wasn’t going to lie about it...but I wasn’t going to volunteer the information, of course.”
  (Larry Miller, 10:56)

• Burden of Secrecy:

  “It was challenging...I had migraines so bad I ended up in the ER a few times...always anxious and nervous that somehow this would come out...for close to 40 years.”
  (Larry Miller, 11:00–11:51)

3. Breaking Through: Nike, the Jordan Brand, and Professional Success

Timestamps: 12:52 – 14:24

• Nike Milestones: Larry became Nike's first Black vice president, tasked by Phil Knight with transforming Michael Jordan’s brand into a global powerhouse.
• The Jordan Brand:

  “At the time we started, the business was about $150 million. This year will be about $8 billion. So we did something okay.”
  (Larry Miller, 13:54)

4. Coming Clean: Telling the Truth About His Past

Timestamps: 14:24 – 16:57

• Decision to Share: Encouraged by his daughter, Larry spent a decade working up to and finally sharing his story with Nike founder Phil Knight and Michael Jordan.

• Notable Quotes:

  “When you said something personal, I didn’t know what to expect, but I can guarantee you it wasn’t this...not only inspirational, but aspirational.”
  (Phil Knight, as retold by Larry Miller, 15:55)
  “I agree with your daughter. You need to share this story, and anything I can do to help you, I will.”
  (Michael Jordan, as retold by Larry Miller, 16:07)

• Relief and Healing:

  “The migraines have stopped. The dreams have stopped. I feel so much freer now...since the book has come out, it's allowed me to do that.”
  (Larry Miller, 16:57)

• Restorative Justice: Larry was able to meet and offer remorse to the family of the victim he killed, describing it as “really powerful” and “the most special thing that could have come out of this.” (18:02)

5. Public Response and Redemption

Timestamps: 19:56 – 22:15

• Inspiration to Others:

  “I’ve gotten letters from people who were still incarcerated, from people who were formerly incarcerated...saying how much my story has encouraged them...there’s no shame in overcoming obstacles. Right? There shouldn’t be shame in that. As a matter of fact...it should be honored.”
  (Larry Miller, 20:09)

6. Pathways to Reform: Education, Opportunity, and Reducing Recidivism

Timestamps: 22:15 – 24:19

• Impact of Education:

  “National recidivism rate...77%. If folks are able to learn a skill...it drops to 30%. With a bachelor’s, 6%. With a master’s, zero.”
  (Larry Miller, 23:16)

• Core Insight: Opportunity and skills are central to reducing recidivism and improving community safety.

7. Rethinking Accountability and Prison Reform

Timestamps: 25:03 – 26:59

• Beyond Punishment:

  “There’s a limit to paying for your crime...doesn't mean your life should be over...or that you are no longer human.”
  (Larry Miller, 25:43)

• Scandinavian Models: Larry highlights “Little Scandinavia” in Pennsylvania, a prison pilot prioritizing dignity and rehabilitation.

8. Busting Myths & Hidden Talent Behind Bars

Timestamps: 27:21 – 28:49

• Myth: Incarcerated people lack talent.

  “Some of the smartest, most creative people I’ve ever met are people I met while I was incarcerated...In this world, talent is distributed equally, but opportunity is not.”
  (Larry Miller, 28:33)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On early normalization of incarceration:

  “Jail is almost expected… it became normal.” (Larry Miller, 08:17)

• On the transformative power of education:

  “Education… became my key to get out of that lifestyle.” (Larry Miller, 08:35)

• On the lifelong burden of secret-keeping:

  “It caused me to have recurring nightmares… migraines… all because I was always anxious and nervous that somehow this would come out.” (Larry Miller, 11:00–11:51)

• On public support from Nike leadership:

  “I think this story is not only inspirational, but it’s aspirational.” (Phil Knight, as relayed by Larry Miller, 15:55)

• On restorative justice:

  “I got an opportunity to sit down with the family of the young man that I shot and express my sorrow and remorse… that was really powerful for me.” (Larry Miller, 18:02)

• On the myth of wasted talent:

  “There’s so much talent that’s wasted inside of the prisons... if we can figure out a way to tap into that creativity, into that intellect, that can have a major impact on this country.” (Larry Miller, 27:21)

• On opportunity:

  “In this world, talent is distributed equally, but opportunity is not.” (Larry Miller, 28:33)

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Key Segments & Timestamps

• Larry’s background and entry into crime: 03:28 – 07:25
• Impact of education; cycle of secrecy and barriers: 08:26 – 11:51
• Achievements at Nike and building the Jordan Brand: 12:52 – 14:24
• Opening up about his past; reactions from Phil Knight and Michael Jordan: 14:24 – 16:57
• Restorative justice and meeting victim’s family: 16:57 – 18:25
• Responses from formerly incarcerated people: 19:56 – 22:15
• Data on recidivism and impact of education: 22:15 – 24:19
• Reimagining accountability and criminal justice reform: 25:03 – 26:59
• Busting the myth about talent in prison: 27:21 – 28:49

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Tone and Style

The tone is candid, emotional, and hopeful. Larry is reflective and humble, offering unvarnished truths about pain, growth, and redemption. Ana Zamora guides the discussion with empathy, pressing for actionable lessons and systemic change.

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Final Takeaways

Larry Miller’s life is a testament to the possibility of transformation, the importance of first (not just second) chances, and the need for a justice system centered on dignity, opportunity, and genuine accountability. His story makes a compelling case for investing in rehabilitation, education, and systems that see the humanity—and the potential—inside every person.

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To learn more, consider reading Larry’s book:
My Secret Journey from the Streets to the Boardroom.

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Memorable Quote to End:

“In this world, talent is distributed equally, but opportunity is not.”
(Larry Miller, 28:33)

Transcript

[Ana Zamora]

At the Just Trust, we're working to make sure the United States becomes a global leader in justice and public safety innovation, not just a leader in our incarceration rates. There's so much opportunity to move us from a system of punishment for the sake of punishment to one that actually centers prevention, safety, accountability, rehabilitation, and healing. Right now, that means powering innovative programs and policies that significantly improve our institutions and make our neighborhoods safer. But we can't do this alone. Your support helps us continue to push for meaningful change in this moment. Together, we can build a justice system that works for everyone. Visit thejustrust.org donate to join us in this mission.

[Larry Miller]

Today it's morning in New York.

Hey everybody, I'm Mandy Patinkin. And I'm Kathryn Grody. And we have a new podcast. It's called Don't Listen to Us.

[Ana Zamora]

Many of you have asked for our advice.

[Larry Miller]

Tell me what is wrong with you people. Don't listen to us. Our take it or leave it advice show is out Every Wednesday, premiering October 15th. A Lemonada Media original.

Lemonada.

[Ana Zamora]

Welcome to when it Clicked. I'm your host, Ana Zamora, founder and CEO of the Just Trust, an organization fighting for a criminal justice system that works better for all of us. In this series, I'm talking to people from all walks of life to ask why they're working to transform our justice system.

We may come to this issue for very different reasons, but ultimately we all want the same thing, to create safety and opportunities for all. Some of my guests have made mistakes in the past and have been to prison. Some have a family member who has been to prison like I do, and others are driven by human rights, racial justice, faith or economics. Whatever their reason, all are welcome at this table. Today we're talking to Larry Miller, the chairman of the Jordan Brand at Nike and author of the book Jump My Secret Journey from the Streets to the Boardroom. For those who don't know, Larry is the reason why Jordans are so globally iconic and have become the golden child of the Nike company. He's truly a force both in business and in justice reform. He's also the newest board member of the Just Trust, which is how I've gotten the opportunity to know him. I wanted to talk to Larry on the show because his story is nothing short of remarkable, from his conviction for second degree murder at age 16 to becoming a top executive at one of the world's largest companies. When Larry talks about creating a better justice system, it's powerful because he's lived it. He knows Firsthand the value of education for giving incarcerated people a chance to choose a different path. So put on those Jordans and let's get into it.

[Interviewer (possibly a journalist or host)]

Larry, your story is all about transformation, and it's a story that you've made public only very recently. I want to get into that. Can you take me back to that time in your upbringing? What was it like to grow up in West Philadelphia?

[Larry Miller]

West Philadelphia, born and raised. Playground is where I spend most of my days.

I grew up in West Philadelphia, born and raised there. Through elementary school. I was, you know, smartest kid in the class. Teachers pet like the kid that was always trying to please my teachers and parents. But as I got older, the streets started to pull at me. And by the age of like 12, 13, I had kind of abandoned the good kid. And, you know, I joined a gang and just got caught up in street life at that point, from the age of about 12 years old. And that led to a bunch of trouble for me and kind of led to me being in jail, being locked up a number of times. As a juvenile when I was 16 years old, I was in a gang. I was drunk and I shot another kid and killed him. I was charged as an adult. My family was able to pull together enough money to get me an attorney, and he worked out a deal for me where I pleaded guilty to second degree murder, was sentenced to four and a half to 20 years while I was incarcerated. At that time, I really got into reading. That was how I kind of spent most of my time. And I read anything I could get my hands on. Wasn't a lot in the library there, so, you know, it was kind of rare to be able to get really good books to read. But that became my pastime. I got my GED while I was incarcerated at that point, actually ended up being the valedictorian of my graduating class in. In jail. So got out after doing the four and a half, went back to the old neighborhood, got caught up in the same old things, and was again in and out of jail. The last time I was arrested, I had five armed robbery charges.

[Interviewer (possibly a journalist or host)]

Wow.

[Larry Miller]

Was able to beat a couple of them and ended up getting sentenced to four to 10 years. And when I was, the place I was incarcerated at that point was called Greaterford in Pennsylvania. It was a prison in Pennsylvania, Media maximum security prison. And when I got there, I realized that they had this program where they had trailers, like outside the jail wall, and people could live in those trailers and actually leave every day and go to school or work and just have to Be back in the evening. So when I heard about that program, my goal was like, okay, I'm going to get into that program. So I started taking classes inside the jail, and a number of colleges were offering classes. So I ended up getting into that program, got my associate's degree while I was in that program, transferred my credits to Temple University, moved to a halfway house in North Philadelphia, and started at Temple University as a junior. Got my bachelor's degree in accounting, of all things, as a criminal, got my account bachelor's degree in accounting, and started my career at Campbell Soup Company.

[Interviewer (possibly a journalist or host)]

Amazing. Amazing. It's quite a story.

I want to break that down a little bit. Can you take me back to your experience early on with the criminal justice system? I'd love to hear a little bit more about interactions with police as a young person, as well as a little bit more about what your experience in prison was like for you as a young person.

[Larry Miller]

So the first time policeman ever pulled a gun on me, I was 12 years old.

[Interviewer (possibly a journalist or host)]

Oh, my gosh.

[Larry Miller]

Friend of mine and I had stolen the bike, and we were in his backyard kind of stripping the bike down, and the police came up. I ran through the house to try to get away, and I ran out the front door, and a policeman was there and pulled the gun on me and said, stop or I'll blow your brains out. Of course I stopped. And that was the first time I was actually arrested. I didn't actually go to jail that time. I ended up getting probation, but that was kind of the start of me getting in trouble. And, you know, one of the things about growing up in that neighborhood and growing up in that environment and in that world is like, jail is almost expected. Every time I went back to jail, it was the same people, and it became normal.

[Interviewer (possibly a journalist or host)]

Wow. So what do you think kind of changed for you? Because it sounds like at some point.

You know, you. You took seriously what was going to be next in your life or making a change in your life. What was that moment like when you realized, I want to do something different?

[Larry Miller]

So.

The last time I was incarcerated, my. My oldest daughter had just been born, and I realized that, you know, I wanted to be there for her. I wanted to be able to take care of her, do provide for her. And I knew I couldn't do that if I was in jail. So the last time I was incarcerated, I was already thinking about the fact that I didn't want to live this life anymore. I wanted to change my life, but I didn't know what to do. I didn't know how to do it. And I think when I discovered education, that became my way out. That became my key to get out of that lifestyle that I. That I was living. So, like I said, my bachelor's degree is in accounting, right? And at that time, there was what was known as the big eight accounting firms. And. And I had started interviewing with a bunch of them. And the one that I kind of zeroed in was called Arthur Anderson. May have heard of them before.

[Interviewer (possibly a journalist or host)]

May have heard of them.

[Larry Miller]

So I ended up going there, spending the whole day interviewing with a number of people. And all day in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, should I share my background with these folks? Because all they knew is I was a young black man about to graduate from temple with honors, and they were interested, and I was interested. Finally, I get to the last person who was the hiring manager, and I decide that I'm going to share with him. So I kind of start telling him my story and. And as I'm talking to him, I can see his face changing and like, not in a good way. And finally I get done. And he said, wow, that's an amazing story, and I'm sure you're going to do well. He reached in his pocket and pulled out an envelope, and he said, I have an offer letter here that I was all ready to give you, but I can't give it to you now. He said, I can't take a chance. I wish you the best, but I can't hire you. And at that point, there were a couple feelings that I was dealing with. The first one was, this is a waste of my time. What I'm doing is a waste of time. They're never going to let me build a professional career because of my background. I've wasted my time getting this education and putting all this time and effort and money into it. And the other thing was that I wasn't going to share this information anymore. I wasn't going to lie about it. I wasn't going to deny it if it came up, but I wasn't going to volunteer the information, of course.

[Interviewer (possibly a journalist or host)]

Why? Why would you? After that experience and for four years.

[Larry Miller]

That'S how I built my career. People I consider family had no clue about my. About my background because I was that diligent in trying to keep it quiet. It was challenging. It caused me to have recurring nightmares. Would wake up in a cold sweat dreaming that I was on my way back to jail for something that I didn't really understand or know about. I had migraines. So bad. I ended up in the ER a few times, and it was all because I was always anxious and nervous that somehow this would come out. And I had that feeling for close to 40 years.

[Ana Zamora]

Two films, one powerful Message Our justice system needs a new story. Sing Sing from A24 and Daughters from Simpson street are two new films that shine a light on the cracks in our justice system and the resilience of those impacted by incarceration. And while they are beautiful and entertaining, they're also calls to action. You can watch Daughters now on Netflix and Sing Sing in a theater near you.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Hello, I'm Gretchen Rubin. And I'm Lori Gottlieb. We're two friends, one a happiness researcher and the other a therapist, and we are here to tackle the problems of everyday life with all of you, from big issues to small. We'll share advice and fresh perspectives, and we'll also highlight responses from you, our listeners, to the questions we discuss. Whether it's that pet peeve that's been bugging you for years, a tricky dilemma, or or just something you've always wondered about, we'll talk it through the since you asked podcast from Lemonada Media premieres on September 23rd. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Interviewer (possibly a journalist or host)]

So you went to Temple, you had this experience at Arthur Andersen, you changed your strategy for getting a job, and you started building your career and eventually ending up at Nike. I'd love you to take us to the moment or the pathway to how you ended up at Nike. I do want to get into how hard it was to keep your past a secret over the years. But before we get into that more, can you tell me about your experience working at Nike in those early days? What was it like building and shaping the Jordan brand in the in the.

[Larry Miller]

Beginning, when I started at Nike, I was the first black vice president in the history of the company. And Michael Jordan was about to retire from the Bulls for the second time. And there was a lot of talk around Nike of, hey, it's been a nice run, but you know, Michael's retiring and it's and it's over at that point. But there were some of us here at Nike who felt like there was an opportunity to build something around Michael Jordan after his playing days.

[Interviewer (possibly a journalist or host)]

Yeah.

[Larry Miller]

And so I was asked by Phil Knight to put a team together and strategies on how we were going to take that logo and actually create a brand. And at the time we started, the business was about 140, 150 million dollars and this year will be about 8 billion. So we did something okay, we did something.

[Interviewer (possibly a journalist or host)]

Okay. I'd say so. I'd say so. You talked a little bit already about holding your secret.

Throughout your career and the physical toll that it took from the migraines and all of that. I'd love for you to tell us a little story about the moment that you decided it was time for you to share about your past within your professional circle. What was it like calling up Phil Knight and Michael Jordan and telling them about your past?

[Larry Miller]

So, first of all, I wanna say that it was my oldest daughter, Lila, who actually encouraged me to share the story. And her and I worked on it together for probably well over 10 years. We worked, worked on it. And the reason it took so long was mainly because of me. First I was busy, but also I was in no hurry to do this. But she convinced me that it was. It was the right thing to do. She felt like, hey, your story inspires us, and I think it will inspire other people, so you need to share it. But I had a list of people that I said, I want to make sure they hear it from me versus hearing it from somewhere else. And so at the top of that list were Michael Jordan and Phil Knight. My first call was with Bill Knight. And at the end he said. He said, wow. When you said something personal, I didn't know what to expect. But I can guarantee you it wasn't this. I bet he said, but I think this story is not only inspirational, but it's aspirational. And. And you definitely should tell it. And I will support you however I can.

[Interviewer (possibly a journalist or host)]

Good job, Mr. Knight.

[Larry Miller]

I was like, that's great. So the next day, I ended up talking to mj and I go through the whole deal again with him, kind of share the whole story. And when I was done, there was silence on the other end of the phone. And it was probably only a couple seconds, but it felt like an hour. But then he said, I agree with your daughter. You need to share this story, and anything I can do to help you, I will. And my thinking at that point was, if these two guys feel like I'm doing the right thing, then I must be doing the right thing.

[Interviewer (possibly a journalist or host)]

And how has opening up about your experiences affected you personally and professionally? What kind of ripple effects have you seen as a result of sharing your story? And I hope that the migraines have officially gone away.

[Larry Miller]

Absolutely. The migraines have stopped.

[Interviewer (possibly a journalist or host)]

Good.

[Larry Miller]

The dreams have stopped. I feel so much freer now. I used to feel like when I would go and speak to young people or people in general about my Career, success and stuff like that. I always felt like I was cheating people because I really wasn't telling the whole story. And to me, I probably. I wasn't telling the most impactful part of the story, right? And since the book has come out, it's allowed me to do that. It's allowed me to, you know, be able to share the story. I feel a sense of freedom now that I don't have to carry this burden around, of being afraid that something's going to come out that's going to negatively impact the career that I built up to this point. The other thing that has come out of sharing this, that is probably for me, the most special thing that could have come out of this is that I got an opportunity to sit down with the family of the young man that I shot and express my sorrow and remorse for what I did.

It was. It was an emotional meeting. They each spoke about how what happened affected them. That was really powerful for me because, you know, I've been carrying this around for all those years. I've been carrying around how upset I was with myself for what I did. You know, to take the life of a young black man for no reason whatsoever, it really affected me.

[Interviewer (possibly a journalist or host)]

And it takes. It takes so much courage and strength on both parts, from their part and from yours. Wow, that's very powerful.

[Larry Miller]

Larry.

[Ana Zamora]

We want to hear when it clicked for you. When did you start paying attention to the justice system? Maybe you were a victim of a crime and didn't get the help you needed. Maybe you also had a loved one who went to jail or prison. Maybe you learned about it through your faith community. Send us a voice recording on your phone. You can share your name or not, where you live, and a little about the moment when the justice system came into focus for you. Reach [e-mail].

[James Corden]

Hello, I'm James Corden, and on my new show, this Life of Mine, I sit down each week with some of the most fascinating people on planet Earth. From Dr. Dre to Julianne Moore to David Beckham to Cynthia Erivo to Martin Scorsese to Jeremy Renner to Denzel Washington to Kim Kardashian. We talk about the people, places, processions, music, and memories that made them who they are. These are intimate conversations full of stories that you've never heard before. This Life of Mine premieres October 21st. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Interviewer (possibly a journalist or host)]

Since publishing your book and sharing your story with the world, have you heard from any formerly incarcerated folks who have read your book? And what kind of Messages have you gotten from folks?

[Larry Miller]

I. I've heard from a ton of people. I've gotten letters from all over the country, actually, from outside of the country as well, from people who have either were. I've gotten letters from people who were still incarcerated. I've gotten letters from people who were formerly incarcerated. It's been amazing to me that folks are saying how much my story has either, you know, encouraged them, inspired them, help them to realize that, you know, they can overcome things. And, you know, one of the things that I. I kind of have said to people is that, you know, there's no shame in overcoming obstacles. Right? There shouldn't be shame in that. As a matter of fact, to me, it's almost like it should be, you know, it should be honored that, hey, you absolutely overcome this and accomplish this. You know, my hats off to you. And I think. I think. But that's not the way society looks at it.

[Interviewer (possibly a journalist or host)]

But it's such an important part of the rehabilitation journey. My brother talks about this all the time, overcoming the shame of his addiction issues and his incarceration. And once he was able to get over that shame, pathways opened for him for healing and for the hard work that is rehabilitation. Larry, in addition to getting letters and messages from folks who are in prison and after prison, I also happen to know that you've received a flood of inquiries from criminal justice reform advocates like myself who really wanted you to get involved in the work of changing our criminal justice system. I know you've already started this work. You dove headfirst, in fact, into this work. For one, we're really grateful that you joined the board of directors of the Just Trust. You know, so I'd love to know, what are your hopes in dedicating this next chapter of your life to the work of transforming the criminal justice system in America?

[Larry Miller]

You know, one of the other great benefits to me of sharing my story is that it did open up for me a whole world that I didn't really realize was there of people who are focused on improving and correcting and fixing our criminal justice system. And it's been. It's been amazing to me to meet people and see how many folks who are really passionate about changing the criminal justice system. And so I've, you know, I've jumped in and tried to help out as much as I can and tried to lend my support where I can. The Harvard Business School did a case study based on my story. They took my book and did a case study based on it. And one of the charts that's in the case study shows that the recidivism rate at the time that they did this was around 77% on a national basis. Right. But this chart shows that if folks are able to learn a skill or a trade or somehow be able to develop the opportunity to build a livable wage life or career, that, that 77% drops to 30%. If people are able to get a bachelor's degree, 77% drop to 6% and with the master's degree is at zero. So it's a clear cut indication that if people are able to learn something that will allow them to sustain their livelihood, to take care of their families, to contribute to their communities, that people don't go back to jail if they are provided that opportunity.

[Interviewer (possibly a journalist or host)]

That's right.

[Larry Miller]

So if we can, if we can lower that recidivism rate significantly, I think it can definitely impact safety in our communities, it can impact crime in our communities. But, but in order to do that, we've got to provide opportunities for people to be able to learn something or to gain some type of skill that allows them to build a life.

[Ana Zamora]

Larry's absolutely right. We need to find, fundamentally change the experience of prison so that people can find opportunities once they're out. We talk a lot about second chances in justice reform. We need to give people first chances too. A chance to succeed and break the cycle before it starts. We need more opportunities for youth like 16 year old Larry growing up in West Philly that divert them from the system into programs that help them with job training and placement. We need to give young people an opportunity to choose a better path in the first place. But instead of prevention, we choose punishment.

[Interviewer (possibly a journalist or host)]

You know, as a society, I believe it's hammered into us that the only way to hold people accountable is through incarceration and punishment. But I happen to believe accountability is a much more complicated journey. Can you tell me about your journey with accountability and how can we build a more holistic criminal justice system that actually truly holds people accountable beyond just punishment and incarceration? What does that look like?

[Larry Miller]

First of all, I think there needs to be more consistency in the criminal justice system. But I also think that.

There'S a limit to paying for your crime. I think I, I would never be one to say a person commits a crime, they shouldn't pay for that crime. They should. But I also think that doesn't mean that their life should be over at that point or that they are no longer human beings at that point. You know, I think the criminal justice system needs to be looked at from beginning to end. Like, the whole thing needs to be figured out. And, you know, there's a prison in Chester, Pennsylvania. There's a prison there that has adopted a Scandinavian approach to incarceration.

[Interviewer (possibly a journalist or host)]

Little Scandinavia.

[Larry Miller]

Yeah. Yes. And it's. It's amazing the impact that that's having on the folks that are there. They're feeling like, okay, I may be in prison, but at least I'm still being treated like a person. My human rights are not being taken away. I'm not being treated like I'm no longer human. And. And again, I think the impact that that would have on crime in our. In our society, on violence in our society, I think would be major if we were able to implement things that could help people become better people while they're incarcerated so that when they get out.

[Interviewer (possibly a journalist or host)]

That's right.

[Larry Miller]

They become contributors to their community as opposed to people who take from their community.

[Ana Zamora]

That's right.

[Interviewer (possibly a journalist or host)]

We need to fundamentally change the experience of prison so that, to your point, people can come out better, be better neighbors on the other side of prison. All right, Larry, we're almost at time. I just have, like, a couple more things. What is one myth that you would like to bust about the criminal justice system? Let's just go ahead and bust it right now.

[Larry Miller]

One myth I'd like to bust is that there's no talent inside of prisons. To me, there's some of the smartest, most creative people I've ever met are people that I met while I was incarcerated. And to me, if we can figure out a way to tap into that creativity, into that intellect, that can have a major impact on this country. And so to me, for people to feel like, you know, incarcerated people aren't smart. They can't create. They don't. To me, that's. That's an incredible myth. I was just, like I said at San Quentin for the film festival at all the films that were shown were done by either current or formerly incarcerated people. And it was incredible. Amazing stories. I mean, it's just. To me, I think there's so much talent that's wasted inside of the prisons that we need to. We need to figure out how to tap into that talent. I. This is. This is a quote that I use all the time. But there's a college that has a commercial that says. And the line in the commercial says, in this world, talent is distributed equally, but opportunity is not.

[Interviewer (possibly a journalist or host)]

That's right.

[Larry Miller]

And to me, that is such a true statement. And our goal should be how do we provide more opportunity so people can express and we can benefit from that talent that exists. That's that's not being given the opportunities right now.

[Interviewer (possibly a journalist or host)]

That's right. Thank you so much, Larry. That was excellent. What a wonderful conversation. Thank you.

[Larry Miller]

My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

[Ana Zamora]

Thanks for listening to When It Clicked. To learn more about Larry's story, check out his book My Secret Journey from the Streets to the Boardroom. When It Clicked is a production of Lemonada Media and the Just Trust. I'm your host, Ana Zamora.

[Interviewer (possibly a journalist or host)]

Hannah Boomershine is our producer. Muna Danish is our senior producer. Ivan Korayev is our audio engineer with additional engineering support from Johnny Vince Evans Music is from apm. Jackie Danziger is our VP of Partnerships and production executive. Producers are Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie.

[Ana Zamora]

Whittles Wax Follow When It Clicked Wherever you get your podcasts or listen, ad free on Amazon Music with your prime membership.

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