Drew Carey & Marc Vahanian

Summary

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Episode Summary: "Drew Carey & Marc Vahanian"

Podcast: Where Everybody Knows Your Name with Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson (sometimes)
Date: March 4, 2026
Guests: Drew Carey, Marc Vahanian
Host(s): Ted Danson (Woody not present; referenced jokingly at the end)
Focus: Friendship, redemption, and reimagining justice with personal stories from Drew, Mark, and formerly incarcerated people.

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the power of forgiveness, redemption, and second chances—both in the criminal justice system and personal life journeys. Ted Danson hosts Drew Carey (comedian and TV host) and Marc Vahanian (founder of Pathway to Kinship), alongside several formerly incarcerated individuals via recorded testimonials, to talk about rehabilitation, recovery, and how society might rethink punitive approaches to crime. The conversation is peppered with humor, frank storytelling, and heartfelt moments, as the guests explore alternative models to incarceration, personal change, and the ripple effects of offering genuine pathways to redemption.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Creation and Work of Pathway to Kinship

(01:29, 02:17–03:00)

• Pathway to Kinship helps formerly and currently incarcerated men and women reintegrate into society by providing access to homes, jobs, essential services, and personal support.
• Drew Carey and Marc Vahanian's friendship: Drew credits Mark, his former trainer, for helping him after a heart attack and later staying connected through the journey of Pathway to Kinship.
• "You tried to get me to drink a protein shake," Drew jokes (23:19), reflecting on how Mark influenced his health habits and life choices.

"They actually know how to use a cell phone, unfortunately."
— Mark Vahanian, on the realities of incarcerated people's adaptation (02:50)

2. Personal Journeys: Health, Acting, and Reinvention

(03:10–16:18)

• Drew’s Heart Attack Story: Heart attack on the set of The Drew Carey Show, ignoring the symptoms, eating chili spaghetti afterwards.
  • "I had all these heart attack, like, symptoms... And then we went to Bob’s Big Boy." (06:21 – Drew Carey)
• Mark's Career Evolution: From Broadway child actor, to fitness trainer, to justice reform leader.
  • "Hollywood...was not really interested in what I had to offer. Broke my heart." (15:41 – Mark Vahanian)
  • Ties with notable figures: Trained Johnny Cochran for 15 years, including during the O.J. trial (17:04)

3. Lessons from Acting to Life – Judgment, Self-Acceptance, and Fear

(10:33–13:52)

• Both discuss acting workshops focused on "self-expression and playing full out"—the core lesson being self-acceptance and facing fear of judgment.
  • "The biggest thing you have to get over as an actor is the fear of judgment, right?" (12:26 – Drew Carey)
  • These are the same challenges faced by those reentering society after incarceration.
  • Notable joke:
    "I was in Romeo and Juliet, end of the play I was still alive." (11:23 – Drew Carey)

4. On Forgiveness, Shame, and the Criminal Justice System

(13:10–35:08; especially 23:19–30:50)

• Drew discusses his interest in criminal justice and his evolving views on forgiveness:

  • "There's a concept of forgiveness that a lot of us don't practice. Or if it’s a forgiveness, it’s a conditional forgiveness." (01:10, revisited at 25:17)
  • Emphasizes how hard it is to forgive oneself—which mirrors the struggles of those with a criminal record.
  • "Treat people like children... there’s a lot of people, you come across a new thing, you don’t know how to react so you throw a tantrum... You don’t do that to a kid, so why do it to a person?" (27:26 – Drew Carey)
  • Critique of three strikes laws: "Three strikes comes from baseball. Has no business being in a criminal justice system." (28:24)

• Marc on Survivors Speaking in Prison:

  • Pathway to Kinship programs bring survivors of crime to speak inside, fostering empathy and possibilities for redemption.
  • "To a person, [they] say... you too are redeemable, you too are lovable. And it blows their minds." (30:50 – Mark Vahanian)

5. Redefining Public Safety, Recidivism, and Practical Approaches

(34:27–47:21)

• Economics of Incarceration:

  • "It costs somewhere around $100,000 a year to keep one person inside." (34:27 – Mark Vahanian)
  • About 90% will return to society. Better to help returnees succeed—cheaper and safer for all.
  • High recidivism among young offenders, but those who serve long terms (15+ years) rarely reoffend—1.5% recidivism rate for that group.

• Resistance to Change:

  • Many—understandably—feel deep anger or fear at the idea of rehabilitation for serious offenders.

• Model of Rehabilitation: Norway

  • "Norway is really up... [They take] a more humane approach, more holistic approach. The officers don’t carry guns..." (47:21–47:57)
  • "Cheaper, better, makes your street safer" is the real appeal, not just 'softness'.
  • Prison staff in Norway act more as mentors; inmates are treated as humans, not enemies—this leads to much lower recidivism.

6. Childhood, Socialization, and Early Intervention

(43:07–46:49)

• Importance of starting mental health and empathy education young.
• Ted references Angels at Risk, a program fostering parent-child communication and empathy in schools.
• Drew: "I'd rather spend $100,000 on a therapist's salary to talk to 20 kids and teach them life lessons... and then you save $2 million a year having them in prison." (46:09–46:49)
• Need for social investments vs. vengeance: "You’re going to have to give up righteousness, vengeance..." (46:49 – Ted Danson)

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Memorable Moments and Quotes

• On Self-Acceptance and Recovery After Prison:

  • "I was called everything except a human from the day I was born until the day I decided to make that change in my life... I got free, you know. I’m staying free." (57:12 – Formerly Incarcerated Participant)

• Power of Empathy and Survivors’ Voice:

  • "I have found out a way to use my compassion and empathy to reach kids like my son and like the person responsible for my son’s death." (55:38 – Empathy Curriculum Speaker)

• On Being Allowed Into Prisons to Help:

  • "Brant Choate...was the first person to open the door for me personally...There’s people trying to do good work." (62:11 – Mark Vahanian)

• On Self-Improvement and Forgiveness:

  • "You can be kind, loving person and be selfish about it... I just want to chill. And forgiveness and love is the way to do it." (51:16 – Drew Carey)

• On Failure, Shame, and Growth:

  • "I was, like, famous on the Drew Carey Show... putting up newspapers on all the mirrors in my house so I didn't have to look at myself in the mirror, because I hated myself so much." (64:51 – Drew Carey)

• On Redemption and Making Amends:

  • "If you take a life, you can't undo that. But we can start giving back and we can make living amends and we can make some direct amends." (39:16 – Mark Vahanian)

• On The Need for Community Support:

  • "Second chances truly don't start at the gate for all of us, they truly start from inside." (58:37 – Formerly Incarcerated Woman)

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Testimonies from Formerly Incarcerated and Impacted People

(55:12–60:58)

• Stories of coming home after decades in prison, becoming mentors for those still inside.
• Empathy curriculum born from tragedy, helping break the cycle of violence.
• The fragility of reentry when support and resources are lacking; the value of preparation and peer mentorship.
• The necessity of rehabilitation programming and the commitment to giving back.

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Final Reflections & Action Steps

Personal and Societal Calls

• Mark: "We can help more people with more funds... pathwaytokinship.org."

  • "I've been met with violence, I've been robbed, I've been beaten... I got lucky. I got help. None of the people I meet had the good fortune of a two-parent family... but these folks are worth it." (68:59 – Mark Vahanian)
  • "One of the gifts of this work is bringing people together who can have shared experience, both people who are 'offenders' and survivors." (69:00)

• Ted: Expresses gratitude for Mark and Drew’s honesty and vulnerability; underscores the value of supporting redemption and not just punishment.

• Drew: Shares his ongoing journey—once unable to look at himself in the mirror, still learning, but now striving to be a decent person.

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Intro to Episode Theme: 01:29
• What Pathway to Kinship Does: 02:17–03:00
• Drew's Heart Attack Story: 03:10–09:07
• Lifelong Battles with Shame & Forgiveness: 25:17–33:19
• Societal Cost of Incarceration: 34:27–35:56
• Norway Model of Prison Reform: 47:21–49:39
• Testimonies from Kinship Participants: 55:12–60:58
• Final Appeals & How to Get Involved: 67:54–70:13

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Notable Quotes by Timestamp

• [01:10] Drew Carey: "There's a concept of forgiveness that a lot of us don't practice. Or if it's a forgiveness, it's a conditional forgiveness."
• [23:19] Drew Carey: "I barely touched a vegetable when I met him, honestly... And even to this day... I'm like, man, 20 years ago I wouldn't have touched this."
• [28:24] Drew Carey: "Three strikes comes from baseball. Has no business being in a criminal justice system."
• [30:50] Mark Vahanian: "These folks come in and they share the story, but they're not coming in with hate... They say... you too are redeemable. You too are lovable."
• [34:27] Mark Vahanian: "It costs somewhere around $100,000 a year to keep one person inside..."
• [47:57] Mark Vahanian: "Cheaper, better, make your streets safer is beautiful."
• [58:37] Formerly Incarcerated Woman: "Second chances truly don't start at the gate for all of us, they truly start from inside."
• [62:57] Ted Danson: "You are so fucking cool. I love sitting here listening to you talk..."
• [64:51] Drew Carey: "I was like, famous on the Drew Carey Show...putting up newspapers on all the mirrors in my house so I didn't have to look at myself in the mirror, because I hated myself so much."

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Tone and Style

The conversation is honest, empathetic, humorous, and hopeful, with moments of vulnerability and camaraderie. Drew Carey brings his characteristic wit and self-effacing humor, while Ted Danson's warmth creates a safe space for the tough conversations. Mark Vahanian’s humility and passion for helping create a strong emotional core.

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HOW TO HELP

• Pathway to Kinship: Support, donate, and learn more at pathwaytokinship.org

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Closing Note

This episode is both a call to personal growth and an invitation to reimagine how society responds to those who fall. In the spirit of Cheers: everyone is worthy of grace, everyone longs to be known.

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Transcript

[Ted Danson]

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[Drew Carey]

Like, there's a concept of forgiveness that a lot of us don't practice. Or if it's a forgiveness, it's a conditional forgiveness.

[Ted Danson]

Welcome back to Where Everybody Knows yous Name. I'm so excited to talk to Drew Carey. What he does with his influence as an actor, comedian, and television host is very inspiring. That's why I wanted to talk to him today. We have a mutual friend named Mark Vahanian who's here today as well. Mark founded an amazing organization called Pathway to Kinship that helps formerly incarcerated men and women to reintegrate with society. Without further ado, Drew Carey and our friend, Mark Vahanian. All right, so Mark Vahanian sitting over there. What is your connect? We'll get to it because Mark has. He founded Pathway to kinship in 2017, correct?

[Mark Vahanian]

I think I was, you know, just starting out. I think our official is a little later than that, but yes.

[Ted Danson]

Right. And Pathway to Kinship, you work with formerly incarcerated men and women to currently

[Mark Vahanian]

and formally incarcerated men and women.

[Ted Danson]

Yes, but the ones who are coming out, you are helping provide or find access to homes, jobs, and anything else

[Drew Carey]

they need around services, even how to do a job interview. And 100% well, how does a cell phone work and stuff like that?

[Ted Danson]

Right.

[Mark Vahanian]

They actually know how to use a cell phone, unfortunately.

[Drew Carey]

Oh, because they're in prison.

[Mark Vahanian]

Well, they're not supposed to have them in there, but that is one of their issues.

[Drew Carey]

That's supposed to have a Lot of things.

[Ted Danson]

We'll cut that out so that you can get back in the prison system. Okay, but let's. And the reason why the three of us are sitting here is because. How long have you known mark?

[Drew Carey]

Probably 25 years. When I was in my early. When I was around 42. Right. I had a. I was telling you. I just mention when we met, when I came in, I had a heart attack and a stent put in. My joke used to be same thing Dick Cheney had, except they left my heart in. That was my joke. I told it to his face once. I was doing the White House correspondence dinner, and he was sitting right to my left, and I told that joke. And he was pounding the table. He was laughing so hard. Thank God. But, yeah, so I had a heart attack. And he was my trainer at the time. They assigned him to me. The doctor did.

[Mark Vahanian]

Dr. Dan Eisenberg.

[Drew Carey]

Dr. Eisenberg, yeah. And then the first time we did anything, he came over and he goes, how you doing? And I go, yeah, I'm all right. And we went for a walk. We went for like a 30 minute walk. That was my first workout. Just walking in the sunshine after having my stent put in.

[Ted Danson]

Which is. Was it back then, an in and out. You get it put in and you walk out that day, or did you do.

[Drew Carey]

I had my heart thin on the Drew Carey show set. They took me to St. Joe's wait, tell me that.

[Ted Danson]

Were you literally.

[Drew Carey]

Oh, I have a whole story about it. You ever had heart trouble?

[Ted Danson]

No, but I'm looking at it real carefully.

[Drew Carey]

Oh, okay. So I was really overweight, and we were supposed to come back to start taping. I always go to the writer's room. So I would start around July or something or June. We were gonna start taping. Like, man, I gotta lose some weight. So I thought I'd just start jogging. So I had a little chest heart monitor and whatever, and I was jogging down my street, and my heart rate went up to like 160 or something like that, like, really crazy. And I was like, oh. And I felt, like numb in my shoulder. Like, all the things that I read were heart attack symptoms. But I thought if he had a heart attack, he would go and fall down like in a cartoon. I thought that's what happened when he had a heart attack. So I was like, oh, that's really worrisome. Let me slow down. And then I. Heart rate went down to like 80. And I went, all right, I'll just start it. Which is all high anyway. And then I Started again, and it went shot right up. And it happened a couple times. And I don't know if I ever told you this, but I saw a deer cross my path on that run, which is supposed to be an omen about something. So I was like, well, let me just go home. And I walked home, and my ex, Nicole was with me at the time, and I was really upset, and I got her on the phone because of this thing happened, and she goes, what's wrong? I had the weirdest thing. I had all these heart attack, like, symptoms really worried me. And she goes, oh, baby, anything you want to do and anything I could do for you. And I'll go, yeah, I want to go to Bob's Big Boy, and I want you to hold me while I play Civilization on my computer. So get ready. And we drive to Bob's Big Boy.

[Ted Danson]

Oh, wait, I thought this was a setup to a joke. No.

[Drew Carey]

We drove to Bob's Big Boy in Burbank, and she held me in her arms, and I had my laptop out, and I played Civilization on my computer with the WI fi from Starbucks next door. And I had a chili size, which is a ham cheeseburger with chili on top of it, or chili spaghetti. I take it back. I had chili spaghetti. I had chili spaghetti and an iced tea after having a heart attack. And then she goes, well, promise you'll call the doctor in the morning. And I said, yeah, I promise I'll call the doctor. And the next day was the first day back, and we were doing a big special stunt show. And so there's a bunch of people there. And when I got there was all, hello. Hello. How was your summer? How you been? And I didn't call the doctor, and I did rehearsal, and I felt okay. And then when rehearsal day was over, it was all like, run through light. And then I went to the writer's room, and I'm sitting in the writers room. The sun had already got down, and I. I felt something in my chest again, tightened up. I went, oh, I'll be right back. Let me go to my trailer. So let me go to the trailer and call the doctor. And I went to the trailer, and when I went to step up the stairs to my trailer, I really went like, oh, boy, that was rough. And I got on the phone to the producer, and I said, hey, you have to call the ambulance. I think I'm having a heart attack. And she goes, oh, my God, I'll call right away.

[Ted Danson]

And.

[Drew Carey]

And I said, we were talking about Sam Simon as one guy. We had in common. He used to be the showrunner on Cheers and he was in his early 20s. One of my best friends also created the Simpsons and he worked on the Drew Carey show too, Day week. And he was there. I think he might have been directing. And I go get Sam and tell him to come see me because I want to say goodbye before I go to the hospital. I wanted to make sure I said goodbye to Sam. So Sam came over to my trailer and I got, hey, man, I don't know what's happening, but I'm on my way to the hospital. I just want to make sure I touched him before I went off because I didn't know what was going to happen. Then I went to the hospital and I was there overnight and they took tests and Dr. Eisenberg was. I lucked into having him and he said, oh, we're going to put a stent in you. So the next morning or the next day he did a stent where he put my artery in my leg and then I stayed another.

[Ted Danson]

So it wasn't an artificial. No, it was part of your body?

[Drew Carey]

Yeah, they, they. He went through the artery in my leg with a computer thing on and put the stent in my thing. And then I stayed one more night and I left the next day and I was just like weak as a kitten. I would just sit around. And then Mark showed up and we went on a hike, went on a 30 minute walk.

[Ted Danson]

Wow. Yeah, I think

[Drew Carey]

chili spaghetti after a

[Ted Danson]

heart attack just to catch up. You, Mark, you were an actor. You were on Broadway as a young man or a boy?

[Mark Vahanian]

A boy. I was 13. No, I was 13 when I was on Broadway. It was called Time of your life by an Armenian, William Soroyan. I got lucky and when I was 14, I was brought to Hollywood for the first time by Stanley Kramer. By the time I was.

[Ted Danson]

Which, which movie again?

[Mark Vahanian]

It's called Bless the beasts and the children.

[Drew Carey]

Yeah, yeah, I remember that movie.

[Ted Danson]

Yeah. And he, he saw you in New York and.

[Mark Vahanian]

Yeah, saw me in New York. I auditioned and when the movie came out and flopped, William Morris dropped me.

[Ted Danson]

Wow.

[Mark Vahanian]

So at 15 I was already, you know, working on a car.

[Ted Danson]

Kept working. You kept working you in films? Amityville.

[Mark Vahanian]

Yeah.

[Ted Danson]

Horror.

[Mark Vahanian]

Yeah.

[Drew Carey]

You're an Amityville horror too.

[Mark Vahanian]

Yes.

[Ted Danson]

Coming Home with James.

[Mark Vahanian]

Coming Home. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ted Danson]

And then Lou Grant and a lot of other stuff. So when, and then we. You and I met when we were

[Mark Vahanian]

part of an actor support group, Dan Fosse's the Mastery.

[Ted Danson]

Yeah.

[Mark Vahanian]

And that's that was all about self expression and playing full out. And that's where we met. And then we were part of this actor support group.

[Drew Carey]

Was it like a actors workshop thing?

[Ted Danson]

Kind of. It wasn't like an acting class, but it was like, take a look at. You may think you walk into a room presenting yourself a certain way, but maybe you're not. Maybe you're walking in with a, hey, fuck you. I know you're not going to hire me. So there was a sense of getting to know who you are, how you present yourself.

[Drew Carey]

Oh, I've done a thing like that. Those are really important. Yeah. And like, if anybody who's an actor out there want to, like, those kind of things are more important than how to win a scene. And all the other stuff they teach you in a regular acting class, you know, who's your character? All that, like, that's more important to find out who you are and what you are inside because, like, you're like, you're really the actor in the room. Like the.

[Mark Vahanian]

Hey.

[Unnamed Speaker (possibly a guest or participant)]

Wrong.

[Drew Carey]

Wrong.

[Ted Danson]

Excuse me. I've been, you know, binging your work.

[Drew Carey]

I have a two or three days. I started writing jokes about what a bad actor I am. I'm a bad actor, I tell you. I was in Romeo and Juliet, end of the play. I was still alive. I was in a Christmas play. I wasn't off book till February. Bad act. My agent's another actor, looks just like me.

[Ted Danson]

This is much better.

[Drew Carey]

Bad, I tell you.

[Ted Danson]

Bad.

[Drew Carey]

I got nominated for Academy Awards. Steven Seagal won it.

[Mark Vahanian]

Uh oh,

[Ted Danson]

Mark, you're a great audience.

[Drew Carey]

Those are pretty good jokes, right?

[Ted Danson]

Those are good, real good jokes.

[Mark Vahanian]

Let me throw Rodney Dangerfield in there.

[Drew Carey]

But yeah, those things about like one of the biggest thing you have to get over as an actor is the fear of judgment, right?

[Mark Vahanian]

Yeah.

[Drew Carey]

And the fear of, like, somebody's going to think I'm bad or somebody's going to think badly of me or think I'm being silly or, you know, if I cry or if I, like, got to go 100%, man.

[Ted Danson]

Not to say it's life. I mean, I find that to be. I. I will spend. I will waste an hour or two at night worrying about what to ask you so that I appear like a good, you know, I like you host or something. You like me or something. And finally, finally I give up. I finally give up and just go, what am I genuinely curious about? And go from there.

[Mark Vahanian]

But it's that judgment thing applies also for these folks in prison. So I was working with a woman just this Past Friday, who was convicted 20 years ago. So she served 20 years, and she's about to go to the board of parole. And she said to me, I'm concerned they're going to judge me for what I did. And I said, well, they are. That's what they do. But that's not the whole story. But that fear of judgment also aggravated the shame, and she was getting stuck in that. And as soon as you just acknowledge, well, yeah, you are going to be judged. And now what? That you're able to then move forward.

[Drew Carey]

Fear of judgment, shame. Fear triggers fight or flight. All those things. Like, that's an automatic reaction, one thing to the next. That's how a lot of people end up in jail in the first place, is they don't want to feel shamed.

[Ted Danson]

I want to go back to how you guys met and work our way up to pathway to kinship so that people really know what it is you do and what it's about. But how did you first hear from Mark about pathway to kinship?

[Drew Carey]

I got a cold call, just like you.

[Ted Danson]

I know we're friends, but I need money now.

[Drew Carey]

Drew, I haven't talked to you in a while. Still got any money?

[Ted Danson]

This would be the mark for honey and roast.

[Mark Vahanian]

Painfully true. I was driving around volunteering for organizations before we started our own, and at some point, I was like, well, how am I gonna pay for all this gas? And that's when we started to say, okay, well, what else can we do? Started the organization, and, yes, I went reaching out to people who trust me, know me, and tried to make a case for what we're doing.

[Ted Danson]

Okay, this is either gonna be an editing nightmare for you, or people will hang in. Mark, I want to take you back to acting. Wasn't satisfying you enough. You started to be a physical trainer.

[Mark Vahanian]

Let me. I'll. I'll share it a little differently. So three careers, three trips to Hawaii. So first as an actor, I was brought to Hawaii for an episode of Heart to Heart.

[Ted Danson]

Yep.

[Mark Vahanian]

Robert Wagner, Stephanie Powers.

[Drew Carey]

Classic.

[Mark Vahanian]

Somewhere in my twenties, I discovered that Hollywood and the business was not really interested in what I had to offer. Broke my heart was all I'd ever.

[Drew Carey]

That's a good way to put.

[Ted Danson]

Is it?

[Formerly Incarcerated Participant]

Is.

[Ted Danson]

It did.

[Formerly Incarcerated Woman]

And,

[Mark Vahanian]

you know, in the middle of being very depressed, I also had to feed myself. So I had to figure out another way to make a living, which I'd never even thought about since I'd been at it since 13. And that's when I had done a play called she Also Dances, where I played A gymnast, dancer.

[Drew Carey]

And

[Mark Vahanian]

our mutual friend Brad Blaisdell, who's no longer with us, asked me to get him in shape because he'd seen me in this play. And he said, I'll buy your gym membership. And that was the first inkling. And then I took all the classes, got certified, and same thing, went around asking people I knew who were successful and might be able to afford a trainer. And before I know it, I was working with you. I trained Bruce Willis for a film. Woody I worked with for a little while. Johnny Cochran was.

[Drew Carey]

Whatever happened to that guy?

[Mark Vahanian]

So Johnny Cochran was like my favorite unbelievable person to work with. I worked with him for about 15 years. Worked with him for the whole OJ trial.

[Unnamed Speaker (possibly a guest or participant)]

He.

[Mark Vahanian]

He was amazing. I learned a lot about the justice system being by his side.

[Drew Carey]

You were training him during the O.J. trial?

[Mark Vahanian]

I was training him before the O.J. trial, three mornings a week. And when the trial was getting going, we were working four mornings a week. So he upped his game. Yeah, he was amazing.

[Formerly Incarcerated Woman]

Wow.

[Mark Vahanian]

I never had a bad moment with him. And we worked at 6:30 or 6 in the morning. He was a remarkable person. Somewhere in all of that, I also was just, you know, got an itch to do more. And I was studying trauma resolution through the body. Somatic work. And let's see, Somatic leadership. And the Mick Fleetwood and Stevie Nicks flew me to Hawaii to do get them in shape for a tour. And when that was finished, I came back and I started working, pursuing corporate folks. Morgan Stanley flew me to Hawaii to work with 200 advisors, financial advisors. I also, during that time, started drinking,

[Drew Carey]

which was new,

[Mark Vahanian]

was contrary to being Mr.

[Drew Carey]

Fit.

[Mark Vahanian]

And my wife wasn't having it. I don't know if you know that, but she wasn't thrilled. So I went and got some help, went to a program. And while I was doing that program, I read Father Greg Boyle's two books, Barking at the Choir and Tattoos on the Heart. Father Greg Boyle is the founder of Homeboy Industries.

[Drew Carey]

Yeah. Moving into a new place.

[Mark Vahanian]

Yeah, Homeboy Industries. And I thought, well, while I'm doing this, you know, getting my shit back together, maybe there's something else I can do to be of service. And I start volunteering for various re entry orgs. Homeboys 1, several others job interviews you mentioned. I started helping folks who just come home learn how to do a job interview. And I just, you know, was doing more and more of this and got really into it. Then I met Nun. She brought me into prison. So I had a priest that had nun and I'm not even Catholic. The nun, her name is Sister Mary Sean Hodges. Hi Sister. She introduced me to the work inside the prisons and it just was mind blowing and I was moved. I was discovering that my experience, my skills, my life experience brought something to the table of value and I just kept going and that takes us to here.

[Ted Danson]

Fantastic. And we'll talk more about that in a second or what really, some of your experiences.

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[Drew Carey]

Well, I really trusted him and he was always really super positive. Like I wouldn't, I barely touched a vegetable when I met him, honestly. Remember the time he tried to. You tried to drink? Yeah. You brought me a protein drink or something. And I was like, protein drink? And he's like, yeah, they're, they taste fine. Just try one, they're not bad. And I was like, all right, if I have to. It was like, I was like, I would go to a. This is how the difference. I would go to a steak place and have the steak, the bread, the loaded mashed potatoes, a couple beers and then a dessert and whatever vegetable it was, I would just leave it there. And then after I got healthy, he introduced me also to the doctor that I still have that helped me turn my weight around. And after that, I would go to a steakhouse. I'd eat the steak, the vegetables, not order a potato or not touch it, not really have the bread and I just drink water all day. I don't even drink. I don't drink alcohol at all anymore. It's wild. And I eat salads for lunch and all that kind of stuff. And even to this day when I'm eating salad has green beans and stuff in it. I'm like, man, 20 years ago, 25 years ago, I wouldn't have touched this.

[Mark Vahanian]

There was a joke you worked into your act at one point. I had told you to listen to your body.

[Drew Carey]

Oh, yeah, Is this. Am I allowed to swear on the. Yes, listen, your body. Hey, why don't you jack off and have a pizza? What a great idea. I like the way you think, Mr.

[Ted Danson]

Body.

[Drew Carey]

They're going to get along just fine.

[Ted Danson]

But what happened when you Heard what he was doing. Why, why have you been consistently supportive?

[Drew Carey]

Well, you know what? When I was in. I got kicked out of college, Kent State.

[Mark Vahanian]

But I.

[Drew Carey]

It was in the 75 is when I graduated high school, graduated a year early. And I had no business even going to college. But I heard that's what you should do. So I just did with no idea what I was doing or why. Or I just. Everybody's like, oh, everybody should go to college after high school. And I had no job skills. Wasn't like I could be a welder or drywaller or anything that people in my neighborhood did. I didn't know anything about mechanics besides doing a. Changing the oil and doing a tune up. So I majored in criminal justice studies. That was my first declared major because I'd read. I used to watch Police Story, remember that show, another classic. And Joseph Wamba. And I read all the Joseph Wamba books. Joseph Wamba really owes me. And yeah, so I was like, oh, I think being a cop would be good. So I always had an interest in, like, the criminal justice system in general and like, how it got started and why we have this and why do we have a police force and what's the history of it. Why are people in a jail when there's other things they could do? And when I heard he was starting this, that was a natural interest of mine. It wasn't like, oh, I never thought about prisoners or people in jails. And I thought he was doing a good thing. And I also, I've been on this journey all my life trying to be a decent person. And like, there's a concept of forgiveness that a lot of us don't practice. Or if it's a forgiveness, it's a conditional forgiveness. Like, as soon as they say they're sorry, I'll forgive them. I can't wait till they come crawling to me and then I'll. I'll forgive them. And then they carry that around the whole time in the meantime, like a, you know, like a dead body on their shoulder, whatever slight they had. And so I've learned to get over all that stuff where I want my forgiveness to be instant and before the fact and automatic. I have a whole. We could talk a whole hour about forgiveness. But, you know, part of his pathway to kinship is forgiveness. And the hardest thing, it's easy to forgive. I tell people, you know, if you had a treat people like children, because we're all children in a way, like, nobody knows everything. So there's a lot of people our age, older Younger, you come across a new thing and then you're like a child. You have a new thing that comes across you and a lot of times you don't know how to react so you throw a tantrum, you know, or your fight or flight gets hit. And you've never been in this situation. So you yell, so you have to do. If a two year old yelled, a three year old, you don't have to like it, you don't have to accept it. You don't want, you want it to stop, but you don't see the three year old the next day. If your parent goes, that's, there's that motherfucker that was crying yesterday and ruined my day. What's up? Like, you don't do that to a kid. So why don't do it to a person and a kid you know, you're stuck with if it's your kid. But like you don't, you don't have to like hang out with somebody that's done you wrong or is constantly testing you or hasn't learned their lesson yet. Doesn't mean you have to hang out with them, be their friend, forgive them, let it go, move on, let them go on with their life. You go with your life. But we don't do that in the criminal justice system. The idea is always like punish. That'll teach them. You hear that a lot. That'll teach him. You get three strikes. They use these sports metaphors all the time that don't make any sense. The three strikes comes from baseball has no business being in a criminal justice system. It was an easy slogan to sell and there's ways to do things. And it, it does, it solves a problem that gets criminals off the streets and it puts them somewhere where you don't have to think about them. But does it make society better? Is there a better way we can spend our money? Is there a greater benefit? Like a common, is there a best practice in the world that we can adopt? Besides, we're going to throw them in a jail. And the history of a jail, it just was a temporary holding space for somebody to be before they chop their head off. You know, that's what a jail was. And then they decide, well, we'll put you in jail. We won't chop your head off, but we'll keep you in jail longer. And nobody ever thought like, is there a better way that we can do this? And some people I guess belong in jail and you don't want them to be out on the street when they're so violent and messed up till they get help. But what help are we really offering them while they're in jail? And why do you have to treat people like this all the time? Like, people change people. Like people that start out one way in their 20s, when everybody's like. Or your late teens, when your brain's not even developed yet. You go in jail for 20 years, and all of a sudden you're older and wiser and you wouldn't hurt a flea. And you don't want to keep treating people like that. You have to forgive them and give them a chance to be forgiven. And forgiving yourself is the hardest thing. That's the hardest thing. It's way easier to forgive other people that have hurt you than to forgive yourself. We talked about trauma in the body. You know, you think about stuff you did in your life, things you regret that you always bring up in your life. You're always talking, man, if I just never did that. And that comes across your brain every once in a while and hope that never comes out. And, you know, you have to forgive yourself and move on and let your. Whatever that is in your past heal, whether it's a week ago or when you were 12 or when you were 5 or. You know what I mean?

[Mark Vahanian]

The forgiveness piece is such a big part of what we get to do. One of the things we get to do is bring in survivors of crime, which is an opportunity for them to get some healing, because they get to share about the impact of a crime, but the folks inside get to hear from the perspective of someone who's been harmed, people who've lost sons or husbands or daughters to murder. And these folks come in and they share the story, but they're not coming in with hate. They're coming in with. It's hard to picture, but they come in with love in their hearts. They share how much it hurts, but they, to a person, say things like, you, too are redeemable. You too are lovable. And it blows their minds.

[Drew Carey]

Yeah, they are. They've done a horrible thing, but everything should be forgiven. Did you ever watch that documentary about the two women that were in the prison camps?

[Unnamed Speaker (possibly a guest or participant)]

And.

[Drew Carey]

And they ended up forgiving all the people that did it to them so they could. For them. They didn't do it for those guys.

[Ted Danson]

No.

[Drew Carey]

You don't forgive people for them.

[Ted Danson]

You give it for your body, your health.

[Drew Carey]

Get it out of your body. You don't want to. Why carry that around?

[Ted Danson]

Because it is very destructive to you.

[Drew Carey]

To you.

[Ted Danson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Drew Carey]

Why do you want to like you live a better life if you forgive. You live a lighter life because you're

[Ted Danson]

a good person for forgiving.

[Drew Carey]

But literally you could do it selfishly.

[Ted Danson]

Yep.

[Drew Carey]

Yeah. And you can go like, oh, I know how to get out of this funk. I'm just going to forgive the guy and then move on. Because when you carry that hate around and it, it's super healthy to get mad when somebody does you wrong. There's nothing wrong with it. There's. You should have a period of like, like grieving. You should have a period of anger and like self righteousness, like, what the hell, you know, but that guy cut me off. But don't think about it tomorrow like that guy or did you wrong or don't think it. Don't carry it around for a year. Like as fast as you can as you're able to, you know, try to forgive and see that they, you know, whatever their messed up thing is, how they harmed you, you have to be able to forgive them eventually. Don't put up with it, that behavior. Don't be their friend if they're still the same. You don't have to do that but for yourself.

[Ted Danson]

I always leap over the

[Drew Carey]

table.

[Ted Danson]

I'm a faux Christ. No, no. Mary calls me the F A U X faux Christ. You know, I'm always trying to leap to the saintly, you know, and forgive and all of that and jump over the. That hurt. Or oh, I'm sad or oh, you know, the emotional impact. Because then once you at least acknowledge that you can move on to forgiveness. But I always try to.

[Drew Carey]

Yeah. Once you, like once you've patched a couple walls that you've punched.

[Ted Danson]

Yeah.

[Drew Carey]

Then you're like, well, I gotta quit. That's just costing me money. Why am I doing this?

[Ted Danson]

So there's another piece too that I'm sure people out there listening are going, fuck them. They're in, you know, keep them there. They're in jail. I don't want them out. You know, are they just going to do something bad again or whatever? Talk about how it is not just kind of like a saintly, the right thing to do spiritually, but it's also the right thing to do in a selfish, practical way of what it costs society to not deal with this the way you are, Mark.

[Mark Vahanian]

Well, it costs somewhere around $100,000 a year to keep one person inside. So literally in any one. Yeah, $1,000, $100,000 a year. And in just in one prison alone in California, sometimes there's 5,000 people. Add that up and there's 30 prisons in California alone. They're coming home anyway. Most of them, 90% of them at some point are coming home. So do you want them to come home healed, healthy, able to work, able to pay taxes and be off the dole, or do we keep paying for them to be incarcerated and repeating the same stuff all over the world?

[Ted Danson]

Because the repetition is what. It's very high. It's getting better though, right?

[Mark Vahanian]

I'm glad you brought that up. 16 to 25 year olds, they go in and out and in and out and in and out. The recidivism is about 70% within three years. It's horrible. But you know, if you work with teenagers, it's hard. However, folks who've served a whole bunch of time, like 15, 20 plus years, they don't come back. They're done. It's about one and a half percent of them recidivized and that's through domestic violence or drugs. But they're not out there committing, you know, crimes of property. I'm not being an apologist for that 1%, but those are good statistics.

[Ted Danson]

Do you bump into resistance? Is that the kind of. What is the resistance you bump into? To what?

[Mark Vahanian]

Well, I think what you said is scrum. You know, they, they, they, they did a terrible thing. They, you know, eye for an eye or whatever it is, they should stay there forever, but that's just not how it's going to be. So we want to make. They're going to be your neighbor anyway, within a few miles. They're going to live by you. So it's better that they're able to have a job, take care of their family, have families reunited. And that has generational impact. I know families where it's three generations of gang members. That's not good for any of us. It's just not good for any of us. So if we can interrupt that and rebuild families, what a beautiful thing that is. I mean, it's beautiful. And I know lots of men and women who've come home and are making good lives. Lots.

[Ted Danson]

You also work with lifers who are never, ever, ever going to get out.

[Mark Vahanian]

Well, on paper, and I say that because there is a movement at end the. What's called LWOP or Life without Possibility of Parole. Some of the best people I've ever met are currently serving life without possibility of parole. I've met a few also who've been resentenced under some of these changing laws and they're back. One of them works with me now, Brandon. I Met him when he was serving life without possibility parole at Lancaster State Prison. And he was re sentenced and then he got to go to the board of parole after serving 25 years. And he's home, he's doing well in the community, he's a full time college student. And he gets to go back inside the same prison, Lancaster State Prison, where he paroled out of. And he's a bright light. And the men see him because they know him from when he was inside with them. And they go, their minds are blown because here he is coming back as a free man.

[Ted Danson]

But some of them who are in there that are lifers are also working with you even though they're not up for parole, to help younger people who are.

[Mark Vahanian]

And other. And not all younger. Yes, yes, yes. One guy's name is Kevin Tran. He's in Corcoran State Prison serving a very long sentence, crazy long sentence. He rewrote our curriculum. He personally, he rewrote it I had using my seven keys framework. But he rewrote it and made it so much better. But the detail of work that he put in and he, when I go in, he's really facilitating the class. I'm kind of watching in awe. So there are people serving crazy terms, life without. I know a literary mentor who teaches guys how to get their GEDs. He's serving life without Fantastic guy. Now again, I never want to say, I know that what they did is horrible, but that's 25 years ago or 20 years ago. And they've done what they can do to repair what they can repair. There's some things that are unrepairable. If you take a life, you can't undo that. But we can start giving back and we can make living amends and we can make some direct amends.

[Drew Carey]

Can I. What do you say to people? Because a lot of the arguments with people that are like, really they want to get tough on crime, like we're going to show them, teach them a lesson and set. You're going to be an example. So other people hear about that and they won't commit crime because they know that this is what happens to you when you commit a murder. But that's not why people who commit murders don't think of that. That's like the last thing on their mind.

[Mark Vahanian]

When you're 16 years old or 20 years old or 22 years old, do you think about any of that? No, no, no. You're out of your mind. I mean that, that's the problem.

[Drew Carey]

You need money and somebody says I know I can get some quick money.

[Mark Vahanian]

I want to impress a girl. Seriously. That's some of it. I want to impress some gal.

[Drew Carey]

Yeah. Or somebody disrespected me and I got to teach him a lesson. Huge.

[Mark Vahanian]

This whole notion of the disrespect in my neighborhood and oh my gosh, tragic.

[Drew Carey]

So the people who lock them up and the idea of having like, oh, we're going to have therapy for you. And you know, a lot of people in America will say, like, why should I pay? I don't get free therapy. You know, I have to pay for my food. I have to pay. Why are we giving these criminals that done these horrible things? Why are we giving them all this free stuff? Why are we even giving them free room and board? Like, the idea of it rubs a lot of people the wrong way, the umbrage. But, you know, like, that's why they don't like, you know, people don't like food stamps or, you know, social services.

[Ted Danson]

I made mine, you can make yours.

[Drew Carey]

Right. That kind of attitude. But you know, don't you. Isn't it less expensive for society in the long run? Because I can't. A lot of this. It's like we're fighting against this punishment shame. We're going to show you, teach you a lesson attitude with a better, more productive way. Like, there's a. There's a way to do things like if you could just chop everybody's hand off if you want to and do that to somebody. But it doesn't deter crime as well as. I mean, I don't want to live in a society like that where people make a mistake and they get their arms cut off. So like, how do you do it? That's like the best way to do it. That's what I'm thinking. Like, what's the most productive, most beneficial to society? They should have a lot more mental health counselors, a lot more people that teach them how to weld. Teach them how to do something so they have a job when they get out, so they have a skill. I don't like the idea of using prisoners as slave labor. You know, for dollar an hour, whatever they get, it's not that much. Two bucks a day.

[Ted Danson]

No, no.

[Mark Vahanian]

Yeah, it's less. But. But free therapy. Let's start here. I am, come from a privileged background. Even though both parents were immigrants, they were both also psychologists. So when I was starting to get into trouble of my own kind, I got therapy. I got the benefits that none of the folks that I work with that were either brought up in foster care or in gang infested neighborhood. I didn't have that.

[Drew Carey]

Two therapists as parents.

[Mark Vahanian]

I know that explains a lot.

[Ted Danson]

They fight over which one was giving better advice.

[Drew Carey]

I'm a Jungian, so I think. Did you ever go to your parents and go like, bro, can I just stand on the corner and skip all this talking? Spare me. Yeah, just give me a spanking and let me go on my day.

[Ted Danson]

If you had something you could say to the state, what is a practical real. Not just a wish that would further this what you're doing along.

[Mark Vahanian]

But I think it's more than just something practical because we need to start with the kids. You need to start with families. That's what's happening. You get a kid exposed to domestic violence and drugs, they're already at such a disadvantage.

[Drew Carey]

Yeah. When it's all, you know, it's all, you know, like people learn from people in society, in their neighborhood, their friends, you know, not even like video games stuff. Yes. But in TV shows and movies, but mostly from their friends who learn from. It's like there's an accepted level of behavior. If somebody does something, this is what you have to do back. Everybody knows it. And that's how people are socialized in America especially. Like, if something does this, you have to, you know, get your gun out, punch them. That'll teach them. And that's the common, like, I don't care how many you watch all the Barney episodes you want. That doesn't fight the lessons you get from your friends and your family and people in the neighborhood and people. People in school that you go to school with and all that stuff. So like, it's hopeless in the first place. Don't you think somebody was at a couple times people are prices right now. I ask them what they do during the commercial break. I'm a mental health counselor at a prison and I go, oh, wouldn't have been great if they had that before they went to prison. And they just laugh and they smile and go, yeah, it would have been exactly.

[Mark Vahanian]

That's it.

[Ted Danson]

I'm part of something that you know about Angels at Risk, which is started out more about drugs. If somebody kind of fell through the cracks in high school, smoked a joint, had a beer or something like that, they'd have to go with their parents to this program. But with Angels at Risk, where it was basically just starting a communication between parents and kids because in those teenage years, no one listens in that family. So it was just the kernel of here. This is what they Think, and this is what you think. And then they would share it in these meetings. And it changed people's lives. So to take care of mental health at an early age. Now angel at Risk has a curriculum that costs nothing to go into schools. And it's about, you can say mental health, but it's about self esteem. It's about caring for others at a very early age. And it would be so easy to introduce that into schools to start that mental health, you know, component of what needs to be addressed. You also need to feed people. You also need to have lunches at school. You need to let teachers be able to be nurturing. All of the above.

[Drew Carey]

I'd rather spend $100,000 on a therapist's salary to talk to 20 kids and teach them life lessons. Different ways of dealing with that could be arranged, different ways of dealing with stress, different techniques. If somebody does something to you, you don't have to punch them. You can just do this instead of. That's less violent, that solves a problem. And then you save $2 million a year having them in prison. You saved $1.9 million and your streets are safer and you don't have to worry about getting jumped in the. That goes down, all that stuff goes away.

[Ted Danson]

You're going to have to give up stuff, though. You're going to have to give up righteousness. You're going to have to give up vengeance is mine. You're going to have to give up all those things that make some people.

[Drew Carey]

Well, that's the first. Like, that's their lizard brain coming out when you. That's the fight or flight coming out and everybody like, I'm going to show you and you know, you can't do this. And it's. Besides writing a letter to the editor and voting, people get elected because they get people outraged. And I'm going to throw these guys in jail in three strikes. That's how all that stuff happened.

[Ted Danson]

Do we have examples? Isn't there a country that's doing this really well?

[Mark Vahanian]

Norway is really up. What is that again? It's a more humane approach, more holistic approach. The officers don't carry guns. And in the, in the prison, there's no. They're. They're just treated like humans.

[Drew Carey]

But for anybody out there who's like a throw them away to jail, when you hear the words humane and holistic, you probably are like, already, this is so I want you to think of it as cheaper, better and makes your streets safer.

[Mark Vahanian]

Cheaper better. Make your streets safer is beautiful.

[Drew Carey]

That's the approach.

[Mark Vahanian]

Yep.

[Ted Danson]

And it's working there.

[Drew Carey]

It works better.

[Mark Vahanian]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Drew Carey]

Quit throwing your money away.

[Mark Vahanian]

And I will. In fairness to the state, they are California Newsom. They have invested some money in studying the Norway way and they're making some good efforts. It's just a very big project here.

[Drew Carey]

Correct me if I'm wrong. In Norway, like the prison guards here get like 30 bucks an hour or something like that, right?

[Mark Vahanian]

I don't know their exact.

[Drew Carey]

To get some kind of salary that's, you know, they live a middle class life, but you got to go to prison guard school, you know, and it's all about get tough, keep these guys in line. Norway, they have like psychology degrees and they're assigned a few inmates to mentor like you're. It's like being a Big Brother's program, you know. Now you have these, okay, I'm in charge of these 5 or 10, however many they give them little brothers. And I'm going to show them like, okay, this is how to do things. And how about this response as like a mentor and a teacher while they're in prison, which.

[Ted Danson]

And you. I mean, hearing that, isn't that how you do it?

[Mark Vahanian]

No, it's true. And I. We don't have that yet, but we do have at least some wardens and some officers who are trying to bring kindness and humanity and treat folks like they're citizens and humans. It's not cascaded throughout the system, but there is certainly I see people trying to do it a little differently, which

[Ted Danson]

would remove or dampen down the amount of fear. You know, I've heard you, I think, talk about how it's the trauma you experience of just walking into a jail, which makes it harder to do the work you need to do to get to that place where you are full of empathy for what you've done and you are not so full of fear and shame and rage. You know,

[Mark Vahanian]

I must be either oblivious or just fortunate at this point. I don't feel traumatized walking in.

[Ted Danson]

I meant the prisoners.

[Mark Vahanian]

They are having a hard time. But again, the people who are one of the most amazing examples are some of these guys with life without. There's a guy named Ken Hartman who was one of the first two LWOPs to be found suitable in California. He got out about seven years ago and what he said was he. He referenced the camps as well. And he said he had read in Man's Search for Meaning that there were people in the death camps that had found a way to just decide they could be a good person, even if they were going to get sent off to the gas chamber in the meantime, they could be a good person. Not everybody, but some. And he said, well, if they could do it there in a camp, I can do it here. Even if I do have life without. And perhaps at some point and if they look at us again, I'll have demonstrated that I'm worth taking a look at. So I'd rather be in the front of that line, in the back of that line. And he was, after 38 years, he served.

[Drew Carey]

And again, you got to do it for you. You can be kind, loving person and be selfish about it because, oh, I want to do this because I'm tired of, you know, punching my fist in the wall and I'm tired of doing drywall work and I'm tired of, you know, kicking things and hurting my toe and I'm tired of being angry all the time. And I want to be. I just want to chill. And forgiveness and love is the way to do it. There's no other way around it. Those are the big umbrellas and you gotta apply that to life. If we had a more Norway approach to our prison system. Yeah, I know it sounds super liberal and too kind, like you don't want to. I don't want to treat these with kindness. Fine, let somebody else do it. But it's better. It's less expensive in the long run, it's less expensive in the short run. It makes the neighborhoods better in the short run. It makes crime statistics go down. You won't be as afraid in the long run. Yes, there's always going to be, there's going to be crime. There's always going to be some kind of crime. Yes, there's always going to be some kind of trouble, people. But wouldn't you like it minimized and have it the least we can possibly make it in society by using best practices? You know?

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[Ted Danson]

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[Mark Vahanian]

Great.

[Ted Danson]

We're calling this the Pathway to Kinship Story Hour and let's not waste any time. Let's hear some stories.

[Formerly Incarcerated Participant]

For me, last November was a major turning point because I was released from prison after 25 years of incarceration. Former life without the possibility of parole. Now I'm home. I met Mark about three years ago. I participated in Critical Insight when I was inside and now I go back inside Lancaster and I facilitate critical insight and it's just, it's amazing. Now I'm wearing blue by choice.

[Empathy Curriculum Speaker]

Monday was the anniversary is the third year anniversary of my son Marco's passing. He was 13 and he passed due to due to violence. That's what brings me to this work, right is I have found out a way to use my compassion and empathy to reach kids like my son and like the person responsible for my son's death and really try to connect with them and build that bridge, so to say, not just to honor my son, but that way his death is not in vain.

[Formerly Incarcerated Woman]

I'm a formerly incarcerated woman. I was released after spending Most of my 20s, early 30s incarcerated in the state of Texas and now I live in Southern California, where I work in criminal justice spaces of rehabilitation, reentry and fundraising, supporting nonprofits like Pathway to Kinship Secure Resources so people coming home from prison can actually be supported.

[Unnamed Speaker (possibly a guest or participant)]

I stumble upon Pathways watching this dutiful person, this loyal servant coming in, driving in from Los Angeles every Friday.

[Formerly Incarcerated Woman]

And I'm.

[Unnamed Speaker (possibly a guest or participant)]

And I'm ending my day, but I'm thinking, you're like me, who does that? I mean, who sacrifices like that? And I'm just so impressed with Mark. And then I hear what he's teaching in Pathways, the principles, and I want to know them, I want to learn them. And so I learned from him. And now I have an opportunity to work closely with him. And it's just been a joy of my life.

[Formerly Incarcerated Participant]

What we do with critical insight is it's all in the name. We teach participants the necessity of having insight, not just to go to parole border to come home, not just to understand why they did what they did, to leave them to prison, but also for them to be able to see their potential, to see a bright future. Because for a lot of people, I can speak from my own lived experience. I was called everything except for a human from the day I was born until the day I decided to make that change in my life. And so it's just really about empowering the participants. I got free, you know, I'm staying free. And I'm in the process of thriving right now here, right now, today.

[Empathy Curriculum Speaker]

I run empathy building curriculum with it, which is solely based on Marco.

[Formerly Incarcerated Woman]

Right.

[Empathy Curriculum Speaker]

It's everything and anything that I can do to bring his voice alive and to keep his memory here with me, I do. And I've also am system impacted. I was a juvenile that spent most of my teenage years inside of juvenile halls and camps, which really brings me that sense of concern that our communities are still going through this.

[Formerly Incarcerated Woman]

Right.

[Empathy Curriculum Speaker]

And it really, it's a passion to my heart and both sides you know, through my child, but then also to the child within myself as well.

[Formerly Incarcerated Woman]

The reality of my reentry is that I really came home with no clear plan to understand what was next. I wasn't given any parole plan from Texas, nor I was even shared any options to consider for my education or work. So I came home with a lot of fear, very little room to mess up, and my re entry was very fragile alongside with others. And truly along this process, I felt like everything was so urgent and every decision that I'd make felt like it could cost me anything. I think second chances truly don't start at the gate for all of Us, they truly start from inside Preparation matters long before we are released. If I had access to any kind of programming, any kind of rehabilitation programming, leadership programming, workforce development programming while I was incarcerated, I would have had a head start long before I was released. I advocate for imprisonment programming and at Pathway to Kinship, we work with people while they're incarcerated. So we focus on accountability, job readiness, self reflection, and credible mentorship. So people that you know are supporting folks that are incarcerated have lived that experience firsthand. And I am happy with where I'm standing in life. I've achieved a lot of things in the last four and a half years is because there are people out here, and Marco is one of them, that, that really invested in me early on in stage. So I didn't really lose a lot of years and worried about, you know, losing more time than what I, what I was supposed to. And rehabilitation and redemption are truly real. And you need a community that supports you with this process.

[Unnamed Speaker (possibly a guest or participant)]

I believe I have that responsibility to not just walk on with my life. Okay, I know better now. I can do better. No, I believe that I have a responsibility to give back and help anyone that I can that is willing to receive change, that wants tools for change. I'm here to give it to them.

[Mark Vahanian]

This is just been life changing, a reinvention. To work with people who are really trying to make a new life. To work with people who've returned from prison and have gotten educated, trained, skilled, and are bringing their heart and experience, their lived experience.

[Ted Danson]

Wow.

[Drew Carey]

Wow, that was really powerful.

[Ted Danson]

Thank you, Mark, for putting that together.

[Mark Vahanian]

Actually, Nick put that together.

[Drew Carey]

Oh, nice job, Nick. That was really powerful.

[Ted Danson]

Yeah, yeah. Can't thank you enough. I did have thinking about that. Who's the elderly lady that spoke towards you?

[Mark Vahanian]

Oh, yeah. Velda Dobson Davis. So Velda is a retired former associate warden, and I met her at Central California Women's Prison. She was an associate warden at San Quentin, which she still goes to, and teaches our critical insight class. But she also teaches a distracted drunk driving prevention course for men who are in there for taking a life as a drunk driver. She's a remarkable person. And the women, you should see the way the women respond to her. She's a powerhouse.

[Ted Danson]

Talk to us for a second about. I mean, somebody has to let you in the gate. Somebody has to say, yeah, it's okay for you to come into our prison. I'm sure that's not always easy, but there are a lot of people who are part of the prison system that I guess ought to have a shot out, you know.

[Mark Vahanian]

Well, thank you. So Brant Choate was the first person. He was the former director of rehabilitation for cdcr, and he was the first person to open the door for me personally. And then Amy Casillas replaced him. She's now the current director of rehabilitation for CDCR and big supporter. And as long as we're giving a shout out, Jeff Macomber, who's the secretary of cdcr, so he's the big honcho. There's people trying to do good work. It is hard. There's still obstacles to coming inside. There's lots of obstacles coming inside. But once we're in, we are able to do some amazing work.

[Ted Danson]

Yeah. You got anything? I have one thing.

[Mark Vahanian]

Sure.

[Ted Danson]

You are so fucking cool. I love sitting here listening to you talk. And the way you talked about what's going on was just brilliant and so full of heart. And I listened to something where you were talking about, yep, I'm the guy who says, I love you. I love you to people I just met. I love you. That they love and fuck you if you don't like it. That's what I'm going to do. And I. So I'm like, I love you. Do that. I just love your big old mended heart.

[Mark Vahanian]

Oh, thanks.

[Drew Carey]

Yeah, it took a. You know, took a lot. I was telling somebody when I first got started in the comedy, I was. Started writing. I learned how to write from a book I got at the library. And I was sitting at the counter at this place called Ken and Kings in Cleveland, having a coffee and, you know, trying to write some jokes. And I thought I'd get in a good mood, so I write some jokes. And it hit me. I'll never forget it. Like, all I have to do is be in a good mood for, like, an hour and I can make a living. Because at that time, for me to be in a positive good mood for an hour was like a goal, you know, because every. Every other part of my day was like, this guy. That guy. These, like, really. And in a jokey way a lot of times, but just somebody came up with a game, like, try to go the whole day without putting somebody down. Like, the. Don't put. And I was like, oh, boy, You want me to do what now? Like, I've been on a path, you know, say I'm still learning. There's days where, yeah, there was like, here I am. This is when I was, like, famous on the Drew Care Rich famous. Everything you could want. Putting up newspapers on all the mirrors in my house. So I didn't have to look at myself in the mirror because I hated myself so much.

[Formerly Incarcerated Participant]

Wow.

[Drew Carey]

I would just leave a little square so I could shave.

[Ted Danson]

That's. Is that true?

[Drew Carey]

Yeah. I love that I've done this.

[Ted Danson]

Oh, my God.

[Drew Carey]

Several times. I went through episodes where like, oh, my God, I hate myself. And I don't even want to look at myself in the mirror. So any reflective surface got covered up. So I could just not. Of course, you know, when you're on tv, a lot of people think about you. Anyway, can I tell you a funny story since you're an actor? I was in. I used to go to Bob's Big Boy all the time because I worked at Warner Brothers twice a day, sometimes three times a day. So it was like a weekend night. I'm like, I just never wanted to cook. And delivery hat didn't exist except for pizzas. So I drove to Bob's and I walked in, I got my computer bag, my scruff really sloppy. And some guy at a booth off to the corner, off to the side, sees me and says loud enough to his friends that I don't think he knew I heard it. He said, oh, look, it's the same thing I see on my TV right before I change the channel. And I couldn't get mad at him because it was pretty funny. I was like, all right, you got me. You find out, like, you could have a number one show and you find out really quick that everybody's your fan, right?

[Ted Danson]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm the guy who also, you know, I always try to respond to if somebody's waving or smiling at me or whatever in an airport, but number of times somebody waves and I go, hey. You know, and then discover they're actually waving a person by. I'm such an asshole. Such an asshole. We're probably coming to a close, but you have given me such joy, Mark Vahanian. You'll call me from your 3 hour drive home from a prison or something and share with what's going on. You give me an opportunity to not just feel angry or bad about what's going on. You allow me to participate in what you're doing, which makes, you know, it may be little and small, but it makes me feel better about myself. I also feel like I, you know, I didn't step up to the plate when these people were starting out and going south or something. You know, I was, whatever. I wasn't doing the right things to nurture that part of people's lives. So now to have the opportunity to go, okay, Well, I missed that I fucked up or whatever. I can now participate in people redemption and God bless you. That is such a gift to me. So I want you to know that. And then you get the last word. Is there anything besides. Hey, Drew, thank you so much. Thank you for being here. Oh, my pleasure.

[Mark Vahanian]

It's a pleasure.

[Ted Danson]

Yeah. It made it really.

[Mark Vahanian]

Let me say one, this work is impossible without people helping. So we can help more people with more funds. That's just the way it is. The reality is, in order to do the work we do, we need more money.

[Drew Carey]

How do you do that?

[Mark Vahanian]

How do you do that?

[Ted Danson]

Well, by the way, he's only talking to you and me. I'm hoping.

[Mark Vahanian]

I'm also talking to a few million others. Pathwaytokinship.org Go to pathwaytokinship.org and donate. Meanwhile, I want to thank my team, Pathway to Kinship team, especially Chris Waddell and Andrew Ames. Bless you. And I don't do this work because I'm some angel. I found this out of my own, you know, falling on my knees and trying to find a new path for myself. And I, too, have been met with violence. I've been robbed. First time I was robbed, I was just a kid. I've been held up at knife point. I've been beat up. I've been frightened. I got lucky.

[Drew Carey]

I got help.

[Mark Vahanian]

I had lots of help early on, so I didn't do some of the things that some of these folks did. None of the people I meet had the good fortune of two parent family and, you know, shrinks that could send me to a shrink. You know, these folks are worth it. And I also want to say we work with survivors. We know that there's not enough attention given to people who are victims of crime, and more can be done. We're looking to find other ways to do that. One of the gifts of this work is bringing people together who can have shared experience, both people who are quote, unquote, offenders and survivors. And I see people changing, redeeming their lives, making something of themselves and coming back and contributing to the community. And thank you, Ted, for this opportunity.

[Drew Carey]

Oh, yeah. Thank you so much for hosting us.

[Mark Vahanian]

And thank you, Drew, so much.

[Drew Carey]

Yeah, no problem.

[Ted Danson]

Thank you, guys.

[Drew Carey]

Hey, Woody. Thanks for stopping by.

[Ted Danson]

Thank you, Drew. Thank you, Mark. And thank you to all the amazing folks who spoke to us by video. Brandon Rabia, Lorena and Velda Dobson. You can get involved with Pathway to kinship by visiting pathwaytokinship.org Please do check it out. Well, that's it for this week. Special thanks to our friends at Team Coco. As always, subscribe on your favorite podcast app and maybe give us a great rating and review on Apple Podcasts if you're in the mood. All our full length episodes are on YouTube, including the video of all the Pathway folks you heard from earlier. Visit YouTube.comteamcoco See you next time. Where Everybody Knows your.

[Drew Carey]

You've been listening to Where Everybody Knows your name with Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson Sometimes. The show is produced by me, Nick Liao. Our executive producers are Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross and myself. Sarah Fedorovich is our supervising producer. Engineering and mixing by Joanna Samuel with support from Eduardo Perez, research by Alyssa Grohl, talent book by Paula Davis and Gina Bautista. Our theme music is by Woody Harrelson, Antony Gend, Mary Steenbergen and John Osborne.

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[Ted Danson]

Hello listeners. Ted here. Thank you for tuning into Where Everybody Knows your Name each week. If you want to hear new episodes ad free, subscribe to SiriusXM podcasts plus on Apple Podcasts or visit siriusxm.com podcastsplus to listen with Spotify or another app of your choice.