28. Gibraltar Dreamin'

Summary

Podcast Summary: Where Politics Meets History

Episode 28 — "Gibraltar Dreamin'"

Date: June 13, 2025
Hosts: Iain Dale (broadcaster), Dr. Tessa Dunlop (historian)

---

Episode Overview

In this episode, Iain and Tessa take on the week's major news stories and explore how current events echo through history. Their engaging, witty, and occasionally combative conversation weaves through the Air India air crash and media responses, the UK government’s new spending review, the controversy in Ballymena and tensions around the Roma community, and the geopolitics of the latest Gibraltar border arrangements. Listeners are treated to sharp analysis, historical context, pointed debate, and characteristic humor throughout.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Air India Air Crash & Media Coverage

00:24–02:05

• Recognition of Tragedy: Iain remarks on the Air India air crash near Gatwick, underlining the devastation and the significant presence of British nationals. He calls attention to the often limited UK media coverage of disasters in non-Western countries.
  • "Often when there are huge tragedies in countries like India, the British media tend to ignore them... but I'm glad we're not." — Iain (01:18)
• Media Coverage Bias: Tessa and Iain both reflect on the media’s Anglophone bias, noting disproportionate attention to US, Canadian, and European events.
  • "A tragedy in a country which is far away doesn’t make it any less significant." — Iain (01:46)

2. Personal Anecdotes — Flying, Driving, and Book Promotion

02:05–04:36

• Tessa shares her anxious late-night drive with a "precious cargo" (a 98-year-old from her book), leading to a comedic exchange about driving skills and car choices.
• Iain jokes about book-promotion overkill, mentioning an on-air “swear box” whenever he mentions his latest publication.
  • "That's an instant swear box offense." — Iain (04:23)

3. The UK Spending Review — Analysis & Political Communication

04:45–15:19 | Key Quotes: 06:34, 07:05, 10:55, 13:34, etc.

• Lack of Narrative: Both criticize the government’s unengaging delivery and lack of clear vision, especially on defense and infrastructure.
  • "There is no narrative on defense spending because they're doing it too grudgingly." — Iain (10:55)
  • Tessa proposes how a compelling, integrated narrative could knit together defense, infrastructure, and energy policy.
    • "You tell this renewable story in a sort of building blocks fashion." — Tessa (10:49)
• Flatter Accents & Class: Tessa discusses how politicians like Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves "flatten their vowels to fit in," relating voice to perceived class and electability.
  • "To get on despite your working class background, you flatten your voice and your vowels..." — Tessa (06:37)
• Speechwriting and Style: The duo debate writing styles, with Tessa advocating for concise, "fat-free" prose and Iain defending personality in writing.

4. Migration, Asylum Policy & Nigel Farage’s Influence

14:38–15:48

• The hosts examine the government’s struggles to communicate and justify providing purpose-built accommodation for asylum seekers versus homeownership schemes for British young adults.
  • "It's the job of government to do both." — Tessa (14:58)
  • "Nigel Farage will trash it and be very successful in trashing it, too." — Iain (15:48)

5. Ballymena, Vigilantism, & the Roma Community Crisis

18:07–35:23 | Key Segment: 19:47–34:43

• Backstory: Riots in Ballymena (Northern Ireland) followed allegations of sexual assault involving Roma youths.
  • "We're talking about vigilantism writ large." — Tessa (21:32)
• Media Representation and Othering: Tessa passionately condemns media invisibility of the Roma — their lack of a public voice and the deep-rooted European discrimination they face.
  • "Never are we according the Roma the standards and expectations that we attribute to other groups." — Tessa (23:10)
• Historical Context: Tessa offers a concise history of the Roma in Eastern Europe — their enslavement, lack of agency, and ongoing marginalization.
  • "They were the last people to be enslaved on the European mainland... only emancipated in 1855, 56." — Tessa (26:09)
• Debate on Assimilation: Iain suggests Roma ‘other’ themselves by remaining insular, comparing them to Orthodox Jews and some Muslim groups. Tessa counters with historical trauma and social exclusion.
  • "Do we wonder why they don't want contact with the outside world?" — Tessa (25:25)
• Comparisons and Contrast: The hosts note that while Jewish and Muslim communities in the UK face challenges, they have powerful voices and representation lacking among the Roma.
  • "The difference is both Muslim communities and Jewish communities have much more powerful voices in society. The Roma don't." — Tessa (30:05)
• On Blame & Stereotypes: Iain acknowledges negative stories about the Roma but is called out for generalizations.
  • "If you want a voice, you have to win hearts and minds." — Iain (32:23)

6. Gibraltar Border Deal, Brexit & Historical Identity

35:32–42:45 | Segment: 36:06–42:13

• The New Border Arrangement: The hosts debate reactions to news Britain may accept Schengen-style arrangements for Gibraltar to facilitate cross-border movement with Spain.
  • "I couldn't quite work out whether I thought this was a Brexit betrayal or just complete common sense." — Iain (36:06)
  • "15,000 people enter Gibraltar every day to work... you can't have a hard border." — Tessa (36:22)
• Historical Primer on Gibraltar: Tessa delivers a pacey history of Gibraltar’s British acquisition (Treaty of Utrecht 1713), its strategic value, the great siege, and its symbolic significance.
  • "The longest siege in British history started in 1779... General Elliot learned to live... on 4 ounces of rice a day." — Tessa (38:12)
  • "Lord Admiral Nelson, the fleet visited Gibraltar prior to Trafalgar... there's this epic element of daring do." — Tessa (39:40)
• Local Identity, Referenda & Geopolitics: She recounts referenda in which nearly all Gibraltarians rejected integration with Spain, and Gibraltar’s overwhelming Remain vote in the Brexit referendum.
  • "Only 44 out of thousands wanted to return to Spain." — Tessa (41:00)
• Legacy of British Colonialism: The conversation underlines the complexities of sovereignty, pragmatism, and evolving identity in Gibraltar.

7. Listener Questions: Child Benefit and Social Policy

44:02–46:14

• The hosts address a listener’s question on the origins and efficacy of child benefit, admitting to confusion over complex rules and voicing skepticism about whether it still functions as intended.
  • "I don’t think child benefit works the way it was meant to." — Iain (45:21)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Politicians’ Voices:
  "To get on despite your working class background, you flatten your voice and your vowels and that gives you this slightly robotic voice."
  — Tessa (06:37)

• On Roma Marginalization:
  "Never are we according the Roma the same kind of standards and expectations that we attribute to other groups."
  — Tessa (23:10)

• On British Exceptionalism in Gibraltar:
  "The legend says as long as there are apes on the rock, Britain will hold."
  — Tessa (37:10)

• On Political Communication:
  "Unlike the way I actually speak, which is for both, and I recognize that... good writing should be lean, totally fat free, the fewest words used possible. And I can't bear alliteration, actually."
  — Tessa (13:18)

• On “Othering” and Outgroups:
  "Say we other them, that is them othering us."
  — Iain (34:01)

• Humorous Exchange on Book Promotion:
  "That's an instant swear box offense."
  — Iain (04:23)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:24–02:05 — Air India Crash & Media Coverage
• 04:45–15:19 — Spending Review, Political Narrative, and Communication
• 18:07–35:23 — Ballymena & the Roma Community: Crisis and Historical Context
• 36:06–42:13 — Gibraltar Primer: History, Sovereignty, and Schengen Debate
• 44:02–46:14 — Listener Questions: Child Benefit & Policy Commentary

---

Tone and Atmosphere

True to the show’s tagline, the episode blends historical insight with topical analysis—peppered with humor, good-natured squabbles, and personal stories. The hosts’ rapport brings an approachable, lively tone, balancing serious critique (especially on media representation and government policy) with warmth and self-deprecating wit.

---

For Next Week

• Tessa is joined by guest hosts for the next two episodes while Iain is away.
• Listeners are invited to send questions for future panels.

---

Contact/Interact:
Questions and voice notes: [e-mail]
Instagram: @wherepoliticsmeetshistory

---

Compiled and summarized by OpenAI Podcast Summarizer, June 2025.

Transcript

[A]

This is a Global Player original podcast. See, contrary to popular rumour, we are still talking, aren't we?

[B]

Have we started?

[A]

Yes, we have started again. If he jumps the gun after our little stushy on Monday.

[B]

Yeah, but it was slightly sanitised, wasn't it?

[A]

It was a bit sanitised, yeah. I was very angry to hear it being sanitized. But anyway, saved your bacon, I suppose. Right. I want to just say a few words about this Air India Air crash which is obviously devastating. 242 people on the plane. I think we're recording this about three o' clock and they've recovered over 200 bodies so far. When I first saw the reports, they reckoned that there was 100 people have been saved. But that clearly isn't the case. And there's nothing I can add to what's been said in terms of offering condolences or anything. But one thing I have picked up on is that often when there are huge tragedies in countries like India, the British media tend to ignore them. Now, okay, this flight was coming to gatwick, there were 53 British nationals on board. So it does take an added significance, I guess, but LBC have been rolling on it ever since it happened. And in my show we're going to do it all through the seven hour as well. And I'm really pleased that the media have done this because it tends to only be when there's some. Even a medium sized tragedy in America will get blanket coverage. But in most other countries we just seem to ignore these things and I'm glad we're not.

[B]

Yeah, I do think we're skewed towards America. Yes, but also Europe, Canada, Australia. The Anglophone countries are the European countries.

[A]

Which is understandable in a way, but a tragedy in a country which is far away doesn't make it any less significant.

[B]

And crucially, this extraordinary connection to Britain. Yeah, the one time jewel in our crown, you know, India has this extraordinary heritage and connection, which is why the plane was so full of people. I expect many of them with dual heritage.

[A]

Are you a good flyer?

[B]

I don't feel anxious. Sometimes I feel sick, but I don't feel anxious. I mean, I'm always quite practical about my anxieties and I know that I'm much safer in an airplane than I am, for instance, when I'm behind my own wheel.

[A]

Doesn't feel that way, does it though? I mean, because once your brain starts thinking how does this thing ever get off the ground if you get into that place? I mean, I try not to think that when the plane's about to lift off, because that's when I become slightly anxious. But it is a miracle of science, isn't it?

[B]

It is. But as someone who isn't a good driver and who last night was driving very late at night, I scare myself enough behind the wheel to think I would, irrespective of the carbon footprint.

[A]

You were driving down the M6 and the M1 and you say you're not a good driver.

[B]

I'm not.

[A]

Not in a car with Tessa Dunlop.

[B]

And worse than that, I had a very precious cargo. I had a 98 year old with me a VE from my book, and I gently broke it to him. It took me four times to pass my test. Once we were well underway.

[A]

What kind of car do you drive?

[B]

It can't go fast. It sort of makes a high burring noise when you go over 60, which is good.

[A]

What is it a Fiat then?

[B]

No, it's a Toyota Yaris.

[A]

Trying to picture one of those.

[B]

It's a hybrid. It's half electric, half petrol. It's quite little. And it goes fast enough for me to feel scared. And I'm just very relieved I got home, but I was so pumped with adrenaline that I arrived home at 3 and then woke at sort of 7. And I've been bouncing around ever since.

[A]

I had to get up early this morning to do Nick Ferrari to plug my book and I was on 8:50 and I didn't wake up till 8:43.

[B]

That's terrible.

[A]

I was fully clothed though, because it was on Zoom.

[B]

Yeah, but were you fully compos mentis?

[A]

Yeah, I think I did okay.

[B]

Did you?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Thank God.

[B]

Lucky you. On with the big tiger.

[A]

Have you seen Corey's swear box that he's created?

[B]

No. Is that because you and me swear too much?

[A]

No, it's because I plug my book too much on. On the. On air. So he's created this swear book for the swear box for every time I plug my book.

[B]

Right. Well, I'm glad he was brave enough to bring it up.

[A]

It was. It was very funny last night on the show.

[B]

You're about to mention your book again.

[A]

Something I just explained to the cross question panel about the swear box. And the next caller was Steve from East Grinstead. So of course I said, oh, Steve, I'm coming to East Grinstead Bookshop on July 4th. So do come. Instant swear box offense.

[B]

Do you know Corrie, by providing you with this hurdle, has actually just fed the beast. He's given you something else to Talk.

[A]

About he doesn't realize this poor sod. But there we are, There we are.

[B]

Never mind. Will we move swiftly?

[A]

I think we do need to move swiftly on, because you've got a deadline, you've got to get the 4:30 train from Paddington and there's a chock a.

[B]

Block news agenda with the.

[A]

So which one do you want to start with?

[B]

The Boeing tragedy. I think just let's inform people what we're going to try and tackle. The spend review. Yesterday I had Rachel Reeves on a loop on the motorway. In fact, I wasn't sure what was scaring me most, what she was saying or the way I was driving. Also, I want to talk about what's going on in Ballymena and the way in which it's being covered in Northern Ireland. And just if we may, a quick primer on Gibraltar.

[A]

I think that would be excellent. So let's start with the spending review, which I watched at home yesterday and I think I fell asleep three times during it because virtually everything we knew already, there was nothing very exciting. There were huge amounts of smoke and mirrors in it, particularly on police funding. I thought it was spend, spend, spend, and if at Cooper you're not having any money, that was essentially the headlines, I think.

[B]

Two observations. I got out of my car and I'm aware that there was criticism of me being negative about people, so I judiciously share this. But the way in which Keir Starmer and Rachel Reeves both speak sounds a little AI generated. And I arrive in Warrington and share this with my rather sort of avant garde, politically astute Northern festival organizer. And she said, Tessa, she said, that's a class thing. That's because they flattened their vowels to fit in. And I felt totally chastened. And how dare I criticize the way care and Rachel speak? So then going back down the motorway in this new, you know, chastened Tessa, remembering that we, you know, can't be held to account because of our voices. And I know that because people.

[A]

I don't think I'll ever experience this new Chase and Tessa.

[B]

But I also know what it's like to be judged by your voice because I'm often judged for being too posh. So I did feel a bit of self correction came in there. Don't just take it from Tim the Listener last week.

[A]

So they flattened their vowels. What does that actually mean?

[B]

Well, it's.

[A]

Says he with a degree in linguistics.

[B]

Her point is that, you know, to get on in the middle class world into which they entered. I don't actually Know what Rachel Reeves's background was? I thought she was a bit of a red princess, actually. I thought she came from quite an esteemed labour family. But I know that we all know that Keir Starmer's father was a toolmaker. So in other words, to get on despite your working class background, you flatten your. Your voice and your vowels and that gives you this slightly robotic voice.

[A]

I'm not sure that's right, really. I. I think. I mean, Rachel Reeves's mother was a teacher, I think. Don't know about her father. I mean, she didn't come from a posh background, that is true, but I don't think she came from a sort of earthy working class background either. And I'm not sure Keir Starmer did. I mean, I read an article profile of him once and said, yeah, his father was a tool maker, but he did kind of own the factory.

[B]

In other words, he was a very good tool maker with leadership.

[A]

My father was a farm worker. He just happened to own the farm as well. Anyway, by the way, I know this is going totally off the subject, but I've got to tell you, while I think of it, I was lying in bed. Not last night, the night before. And I was looking at my family tree. That's not a euphemism. And I worked out I am actually definitely related to Robbie Burns.

[B]

Are you?

[A]

His wife, Jean Armour, is my great, great, great aunt. So I'm not related by blood to him, but I am by marriage. And I think I'm really excited by that.

[B]

I think that's what's known as an eendale rabbit hole. And it reminds me of one of the comments on our Instagram account which says, don't worry, Tessa, if sometimes you rant too much because Ian also talks a load of bollocks.

[A]

Yeah, I do. I fully admit that. But don't you think that's exciting to discover that you're that much related to Robbie Burns?

[B]

Fair for your honest, sonsy face, great chieftain o this pudding race, I ye take your place, pinch, trip or theorem.

[A]

See, the problem is I don't.

[B]

We worthy O grace as langs ye air em. I was addressing the haggis in front of me, otherwise known as Ian Burns.

[A]

David, and also my great great uncle David. No, great great great Uncle David. He was in. I don't know whether business is the right word with the social reformer. Famous social reformer, Robert Owen. Have you heard of Robert Owen?

[B]

No.

[A]

Oh, okay. Well, that won't mean much then. Anyway, back to talking about whatever we were talking about.

[B]

Well done, Ian. That was a lovely little bit of history. No, that was good. That was. No, that I loved.

[A]

I mean, I'd love you to do in a future podcast, an explainer of Robbie Burns, because I don't get him.

[B]

I will. We could do. I've got a collection of Robert Burns homes. Nobody ever believes I grew up in the Highlands, but I used to. I used to compete in what were known as Gaelic mods. Anyway, so once I got over my own discriminatory judgments of the way in which she spoke, I went back down the motorway and re listened to the raw speech, which was broadcast as live. And it lacked a story.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I think it wouldn't have been that hard to inject a storyteller's narrative into it and to keep me awake, partly, I thought, what would have been the story that I would have told? They've got this big extra spend on defense. They've got this little bit of sort of capital input with transport. I mean, actually, I think day to day transport's losing out, but they could fudge it to make it look like there's, you know, infrastructure.

[A]

It's actually a huge amount investment in transport.

[B]

Right. And I thought we could start with that and you could, you could tell this story about actually renewed Britain. Renewed Britain. This is the gateway to Fortress Europe and we're going to lead it. We're going to lead this new defensive era. And we're going to do it by investing in our defence. And then to back that up, we're going to invest in our infrastructure. And because national security is secure energy, which I think is a phrase she used, you can link that up. Because actually, in order to have good defence and good energy, you need good infrastructure. So the three make sense. In fact, you'd go defense, then you would go energy and then you would go infrastructure. So you tell this renewable story in a sort of building blocks fashion.

[A]

You are right. But you have to believe in it. And I don't think they believe in it. I don't think they believe in the extra defense spending. Did you notice that little bit in the speech where she said, oh yeah, we're including intelligence spending in this, and then quickly moved on as if it was a bit of an embarrassing thing to admit. Because intelligence spending, I mean, you can argue that it's contributes to our defenses, but why would you include it in the defence budget if it wasn't just to make the 2.5, 2.7% or whatever it is? And to my mind, there is no narrative on defense spending because they're doing it too grudgingly. Whereas on. On environmental stuff, they've got religion on. On this sort of the Green New Deal, et cetera.

[B]

They're zealous about it. Yeah, certainly Ed Miliband is.

[A]

Yeah. And they. They're also quite zealous about growth, but keep introducing policies which are actually going to harm growth, which is a little bizarre. Liam Halligan was on Cross Question last night, and he thinks that we are heading for a really big fall at some point over the next 10 years because he thinks they just don't understand basic economics. Now, he would say that coming from a very different perspective. I get that. But we had a very nice new Labour MP on Rachel Brake from the City of London and Westminster. And I mean, she was effective. I accused her of saying that black was white because she wouldn't accept that they weren't. That there was a fall in police funding. Despite all of the noise that they've made about police funding, they're dressing it up as a rise because they're working on the assumption that all of the police commissioners will put their police preset up by the maximum of 5%, which makes a 2% increase in police spending. But you can't rely on that. They called it. What did they call it? It wasn't sort of a spending commitment. It was spending power or something. And that's why I think it was full of smoke and mirrors. And the public aren't stupid. They see through these things.

[B]

But I think so. She blinded us with lots of billions and alliteration of place names. You know, she went from Brighton to Blackpool, I don't know. Wherever she went, I just felt she missed a trick. It would have been easy to do. So just to finish my essay that I cooked up for her, maybe they'll employ me as a speechwriter. By the way, I would say yes, I think first. Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to be a speechwriter. Yeah, I think so. Because it's about telling a story in a short number of words in a very simply way.

[A]

You're a good writer.

[B]

Did you hear that, Corrie? Whoa. Thank you. So I just think, unlike the way I actually speak, which is for both, and I recognize that. I think that good writing should be lean, totally fat free, the fewest words used possible. And I can't bear alliteration, actually, I'm.

[A]

Not, because I'm the opposite. When I write, I write as I speak. And I put in lots of superfluous words which I would put in A spoken sentence. And whenever my manuscripts come back from the publisher, they cross out all of these extra words. And I'm thinking, yeah, but that's kind of. That's me. You're cutting out my character by doing this.

[B]

No, because it's baggy. And I think people often just want to get to the point they want to take off the sort of, you know, fat and get right into the red meat. And it just would have been so easy for her. So you start with defense, then you build in national security being energy, then what you need for that is infrastructure. And then you can tie in your story to kick reform in the ghoulies, which is the illegal migration. And you can do it in a compassionate way. You can say we aren't going to need hotels because we're going to deal with them so promptly and efficiently. We're going to, you know, not just have good infrastructure, we're going to compress a bureaucracy. But the other thing is, why didn't they own rather than have hotels, they're going to have purpose bill accommodation for these asylum seekers. Why couldn't they articulate that?

[A]

Well, because it's impossible to justify. How can you sell that to a 28 year old who wants to get on the housing ladder? And then they hear that the government's going to build new hostels or buildings for illegal asylum seekers rather than help people buy their own homes for the first time. Nobody's going to buy that.

[B]

It's the job of government to do both. And they can argue they are doing both. We've got the biggest building revolution we've had since arguably the 1970s.

[A]

What they've done is they've allowed Nigel Farage to grab back the agenda because Nigel Farage will say it's outrageous taxpayers money for this. They should all be in disused RAF camps and intense and whatever. And a lot of people will have a lot of sympathy with that.

[B]

And that's why we require compassionate leadership. If you get the big questions right, you can also afford to be compassionate. And don't forget that some voters do have compassion for our most vulnerable. And I don't want to hear that asylum seekers are going to be intense. I want to know whether they're going to be sent back or whether they're going to be given permission to stay and assimilated. I want to know that in the meantime we accord them their human rights and give them somewhere safe to stay.

[A]

Well, good luck with that argument because Nigel Farage will trash it and be very successful in trashing it. Too. And they've given him the opening to do that. But there we go, time for a break.

[B]

Ince upon a day a walket I'm a lane I met a door and mony a crow and a snail Upon a stane up gaedel door and dunna name me I know, I go on, I go on.

[A]

He was a complete shagger, you know.

[B]

He was very attractive man from, I think, Dumfriesshire, Down. Galloway.

[A]

He was from. Well, Gene Armour was from. I don't know how you pronounce it, Mauchline. M A, U, C, H, L, I, N, E. And all of my family going back to the 1700s. And I've traced. I've traced the Dale family back to 1650 and the armour family back to, I think a little bit before then. And they all come from around sort of new Cumnock Dreghorn, I think it's called. So after the Edinburgh fringe this year, I'm going to hire a car and go and visit all the places my family used to live because I've got all the addresses where they were born.

[B]

Scott, we're here.

[A]

Do you want to come with me?

[B]

I might come on a bit of a day trip. Yeah, it's quite near where my brother lives. My grandmother lived in Gatehouse of Fleet, which is Dumfriesshire. My brother's on the other side, actually, he's Dunbar. But, you know, these things are all in a day, you know, you can knock them off.

[A]

What happens on tour stays on.

[B]

Indeed it does, Ian. But actually, I don't think that Eights Upon a Day. I'm not sure that that is a Rabbi Burns. I used to spend a lot of my childhood competing with poetry recital.

[A]

Did you?

[B]

Yeah, up in the Highlands. And I'd sometimes win and it would absolutely infuriate the SMP Gaelic speaking moderator. When I'd go up to accept the prize and say, thank you very much, he was like, jings, she's English. I'd be like, no, I'm not. I just don't speak the way you want me to speak. Which is Rachel Reeves's problem. To go back to my earlier judgment, shameful judgment of her speaking voice.

[A]

Voices really do matter. Adam Bolton. I did a Put My Dictionary podcast with him the other day and he came in, he said, I was listening to you in a taxi the other night. He said, you really do have a beautiful voice.

[B]

You do have a good voice.

[A]

And I thought, what a lovely thing to say.

[B]

Yeah, you do. It's infuriating, actually.

[A]

You see I think you're. Anyway, enough of this mutual. Okay, so what's next?

[B]

I think we're gonna have to talk about Ballymena and Northern Ireland and what the hell's going on there. I think you should start because I'm. I find it quite triggering and I don't want to seem like I'm ranting.

[A]

I don't want to appear as if I know a lot about it. I know the basics of what happened. And two boys. Boys have been accused of sexually assaulting a girl to.

[B]

To under. Underage. I think 14.

[A]

14. And we have to be careful here because it is now under legal. Whatever the word is. They were. They appeared in court and they had to have a Romanian translator. And as soon as I saw that, I thought of you, obviously, with your interest in Romania and that apparently these riots, protests, call them what you will, over what, the last four nights, they have been triggered by this. And presumably the people who are rioting are triggered because not only are they Romanian, they are actually for the Roma community. And I think a lot has been made of that. These riots have now spread to other towns in Northern Ireland. I think Larne is one of them, and also Salford. Now, I have no idea why that would be, but obviously when some sort of riot happens, there are always people that jump on the bandwagon for whatever reasons there are, and it's going on night after night. And unlike Donald Trump, we haven't got the National Guard or Marines to send in to quell these riots. And I think the police service of Northern Ireland have taken a comparatively softly, softly approach and just hope that they will.

[B]

Well, actually, they're very stretched. I have reasonable, reasonably good intel in Northern Ireland and I know that they're very stretched and they've therefore had to call in help. They always traditionally go straight to the Scottish police force for reinforcements. I believe that considerable numbers have been injured of the police force in question. You were right to think of me. When it comes to the Roma, I think it's worth bearing in mind that the majority of the Roma population come from Eastern Europe and they tend to be unassimilated and they are othered within those homelands.

[A]

And of course, there's a big Roman community in Ireland.

[B]

Yeah, there is, there is. But this, I think this particular community is predominantly from originally Bulgaria and Romania. Romania, I think at some point maybe still does, had the biggest Roma population, but they are, I believe, still today the largest ethnic minority in Europe. The Roma. They are, I think, uniquely without any kind of agency or middle class Voice, you will have noticed that there has been no Roma spokesperson. And I was. I stopped in my. My tracks today listening to the BBC news coverage of this. They were interviewing people on the ground in Northern Ireland, and there was a lad saying, I mean, okay, it was a vox pop, what we'd call. And he was giving his opinion and he said, oh, the first couple of nights it was justifiable. I bit of thuggishness, you know, whatever. But now, you know, they've left already, so why are they carrying on with the attack? They've left. We are not just talking about two children, whatever heinous crime they may or may not have committed. We're talking about a vintage approach.

[A]

Vigilantes.

[B]

Can you cut that bit, corry? We're talking about vigilantism writ large. And the way in which it was being spoken about on our national broadcaster was to presume it was acceptable to single out the Roma because they had these two ne' er do wells within their community.

[A]

Allegedly.

[B]

Allegedly. And therefore other groups were likewise othering the Roma by saying, you know, we are Korean, we're from the Philippines, we're Ukrainian. To save their own skin, understandably, because they too are scared.

[A]

Is it right that people in Northern Ireland have now got little badges on.

[B]

Their doors, Flags, badges, posters to make it clear they are not the ones who are being hunted to keep them away from the eye of the storm? But what's extraordinary and where I am.

[A]

It'S the opposite of the Star of David, isn't it? Yeah, if you think about it, and.

[B]

What'S so pitiful is even on our state media, where was the voice from the Roma community who was interviewing the Roma who was able to reach them?

[A]

But you just said they weren't speaking.

[B]

Well, they weren't. There was nobody. There was nobody.

[A]

But sometimes I know this from my own experience is you can't just get somebody automatically. And I suspect that it is a very insular community. And I doubt whether there will be people who just at the drop of a hat, will get up and appear on the radio or television too effectively be the Roma spokesperson.

[B]

There is actually a Roma some level of political representation within Romania. If they really wanted to, they could find somebody. Never is their community, given the history of their community, it's provided with any context. Never are we according the Roma, the same kind of standards and expectations that we attribute to other groups. For example, if this was hypothetically two Muslim boys to Jewish boys, black boys, the kind of way in which the Roma have become invisible in this, the Stories built around it. Because I rung a BBC journalist and made a complaint. I said, why are they voiceless? Why aren't they being represented in this story more effectively? And he said, well, the story's not really about them.

[A]

And I'm like, no, no, what?

[B]

I said, the story is entirely centered around them because they're the ones under attack. And this speaks to the conversation we had last week, where actually, if you have a coarsening of the political discourse, if you are allowed to judge an entire community on the basis the way a few behave, then you're in really, really dangerous territory.

[A]

There are parallels here with Southport, aren't there?

[B]

Yes, there are, in the.

[A]

In the way that people reacted on. Now there. That an assumption was made. Now here we know that they are. Who? Everyone. Well, I don't know whether they don't do it.

[B]

All we know is they needed a Romanian translator. That's all we know. You didn't even know until I told you they were Roma, that they were Roma.

[A]

No, but now that we know they are that.

[B]

Well, I've told you, because that's what I've been told secondhand.

[A]

That will make the people who've carried out these attacks, they will feel vindicated because of that, won't they? That's the problem.

[B]

And the bigger problem is that the way in which they are effectively invisible in this story is an extraordinary level of othering. They're treated, really the rumour, consistently as subhuman.

[A]

You won't like this, but don't you think they other themselves? Because they do keep themselves to themselves? They are a sort of very. A bit like the Amish in America, a very insular community that don't particularly, particularly want contact with the outside world. And whenever there's a negative contact with the outside world, it just fans the preconceptions that everybody has it, or say everybody, that many people have about them.

[B]

And do we wonder why they don't want contact with the outside world?

[A]

Well, I don't know. I don't know enough about them or their background to be able to understand that. I mean, I've had some dealings with people from that community and they. They, shall we say, haven't been wholly positive. Now, you will say, quite rightly, well, you can't judge a whole sort of community group just because of one anecdotal experience that you've had. But they have built up a reputation for themselves in this country as well, which, if they want to get away from that reputation, then that's great, but then do something about it.

[B]

A really quick, if I may, potted history. I particularly know about the Romanian Roma, which was one of the biggest Roma groups in Europe. They were the last people to be enslaved on the European mainland. They were enslaved by the boyar community, the landowner community and also the Orthodox Church. They were only emancipated in 1855, 56. So the last group really in Europe to be emancipated. And that was because Wallachia and Moldova wanted to unite and form Romania and be recogn recognized as an independent country. So it was for superficial reasons, not that there was some great movement to save the Roma. They then bounced along the bottom as uniquely poor, sort of below serf level. They acquire to an extent and are written about quite romantically by even the Queen, Queen Marie of Romania, who was English born, granddaughter of Victoria, because they had this sort of cottage industry role within this very rural community. There were sort of little gypsy scamps. You can imagine how she wrote about them at the time. And actually, yeah, I'm not sure what kind of connotations it has today. Might have to cut that, Corey.

[A]

No, you don't have to cut that.

[B]

But, but they, so they, they sort of inhabited this, this. Yeah. Cottage industry. They were. You're traveling people and they had certain skill sets in, in. In a pre industrialized, very agricultural community. Now the time the biggest whipping boys in a country like Romania were the Jews. The Jews have subsequently left, the Roma have stayed and mult. Absolutely clobbered twice, once by the Holocaust, we know. So the Jews and the Roma, everyone I think, always forgets that they were targeted by the Nazis conveniently. And then under the systemization systems that existed with communism, not just in Romania, but particularly in Romania, their entire way of life is obliterated because it really doesn't suit the Roma to be told you've got to go and live in a flat and work in a state that just. That's just not part of their culture. So they emerge after the revolution in 1989 as a much more deprived, rootless people than they were prior to communism. So a lot of Romania, for all its many faults, Communism educated people, you know, not necessarily in a free thinking way, but it got you through your three Rs, not the Roma. And therefore that combined with the appalling levels of discrimination at the time. I remember going to Romania three years after the revision. I didn't meet a Romanian in that year. It's changed now. But who would. Would concede the Roma were Romanian even though they'd Been in Romania for hundreds of years.

[A]

So even though the word Roma clearly comes from Romania.

[B]

No, it doesn't.

[A]

But it must do. Otherwise why wouldn't they be called something else?

[B]

It doesn't come from Romania. That's. That's an entirely different conversation. And that is one of them. Because they're called in Romania, they'll call them tsigani. They don't call them Rom because they don't like the association with their own country's name.

[A]

Sagani.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

German word. Sigoiner. Gypsy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But glad I can contribute something to this conversation.

[B]

But the progressives in Romania don't call them sagan.

[A]

That's like my favorite type of schnitzel. It's going to schnitzel.

[B]

But I should say quickly that sagan is now a dirty word. Okay. So I feel, you know.

[A]

Well, it is in this country. I mean, it's a word that you're not really allowed to say on the radio nowadays. Gypsy, which I think is utterly preposterous.

[B]

But that overlap between the two names exacerbates the unpopularity of the Roma within Romania, because Romanians consider the Roma to have sullied their reputation abroad.

[A]

Going back to this ins. Insularity thing. They're not the only ones, though, that are insular. Orthodox Jews as a community are very insular. They don't want people from the outside to either be part of their community or even to understand them. And. And there are. There are certain areas of the country where you could say that about Muslims as well. So they're not. I mean, the Roma are not the only ones to act like this.

[B]

But the difference is both Muslim communities and Jewish communities have much more powerful voices in society.

[A]

That is true.

[B]

The Roma don't, and they have done.

[A]

And partly because they don't want to, I think. Well, it's difficult to have a voice when you're constantly on the move, isn't it? If you don't put down roots somewhere, how can you have a voice in a particular community?

[B]

Well, they were in Romania for hundreds of years and they weren't assimilated. I mean, it's a chicken and an egg, isn't it? Because the more you kick them, the more they're going to kick back. You know, why would they embrace a system that constantly others them and then they come west and they're treated. You remember. Remember when Sarkozy tried to kick them back out of France? It was the only time I've seen Romania really rally for their Roma. How dare this bloody little Frenchman treat their Roma in that way.

[A]

But the problem is. And look, I, I. Do you remember what. I don't know if they're still there, but there was a whole lot of Roma in Park Lane.

[B]

Yeah, there was an incompetence, vilified by our press. They were the daily focus.

[A]

But you can understand why, with the way that they lived. And they were effectively. I mean. But I don't know what was supposed to be done about it. Are they still there?

[B]

But what's interesting is, no, they're not still there, or they'd be every day on the front page of the Daily Mail. But you, therefore, by association, assume all Roma are nerdy wells. That is the implication, incidentally, I should say that Romania has made some progress with the way in which, partly because it's within the eu, but actually better than, I would say, Orban's Hungary now and Bulgaria. Certainly they treat their Roma better. They've made considerable progress, but we're talking from a very low base. And the great sadness for me is that rather than show a good example, we are as bad in this country and we know already that thuggishness is pretty near the surface in some parts of Northern Ireland. And the fact that actually we're focusing on police injury and there's not been any sort of discussion or discourse around the people who are being targeted. Yeah, I know that they've come up from Southern Ireland, apparently, that there's a disproportionate number in a community like Ballymena, which is. Was until very recently 99% white and now is 95%. But where's their voice? Where is it? Where is some kind of understanding, deeper understanding of what these people have been through?

[A]

If you want a voice, you have to win hearts and minds. And historically, whether it's Roma or gypsy communities, they've never made any effort to enhance the minds. The only time I can recall getting any positive publicity was. Do you remember that there was a series on Channel 5, the head of. I don't know whether it was Roma or Gypsy community. I think it was in Ireland, actually. Paddy Somebody and Sally Burko went and lived with Paddy and his wife for, like a week to understand what. What they were all about. And that was actually a really fascinating watch. That's the only time I can remember in the British media where they've ever had any moderately positive publicity.

[B]

Well, I feel I'm going to have to go to Northern Ireland, offer myself. There was a case, it was in 2007, where the police raided Roma Holmes in Slough. And they got the cameras, you know, because the police know it's an easy win for them. I accuse them of child trafficking. And I was pretty much unemployed and a bit pregnant. I wandered over there with my basic Romanian and knocked on a few doors a few weeks later, and lo and behold, not a single conviction. Nothing had stuck. But we didn't get a corrective in the press. Their doors were still broken. And inside they live very, very simply. This kind of idea that the Gypsy king, you know, with all his wealth in his glittering house. Most of them are on the bread line. They're pretty illiterate. And some of them, you know, they actually. They're sort of helpless. There's nothing they don't know. They don't. They don't operate within the same cultural norms as most of us do. A lot of them, Some do.

[A]

No, but that's the problem.

[B]

And there is no effort to reach out or to try and find common.

[A]

Say we other them, that is them othering us.

[B]

But when you look at the history, Ian, when you look at the way in which they are immediately othered as soon as they step foot in whatever country they enter, as they travel from the east to the west, with their history of enslavement and discrimination, fine.

[A]

But if that was you and me, we would. We would make every effort, we would double our efforts to try and ingratiate ourselves with the local community.

[B]

You can't say you or me, we're so far removed from being a Roma.

[A]

Well, of course we are. But I just know that if I go to a foreign country, I will try and sort of fit in to the extent that that's possible and not deliberately alienate the people that I'm with.

[B]

I went and found the Roma that Sarkozy had kicked out of France in their village in near Bucharest when it happened. I'm trying to think when that was sometime, I think 2011, about that time, 2010. And I remember the poverty in which they lived. Their children aged 10, had fingers like bananas because they'd never really held onto a pen. They go to school until they no longer get the free biscuits and milk, and then they stop going to school because they see no cause for school. There is this really long, long term problem about failure to integrate. But I don't understand how us othering them so publicly so that it's okay for them to be the last whipping boy in Europe can ever help the situation.

[A]

Okay, let's go to a break.

[B]

Now.

[A]

I'm very conscious about you getting your Train to Bath given. You've got to do a talk at 6:30, haven't you, or something?

[B]

Yeah, I do.

[A]

So let's quickly cover Gibraltar because according to the Telegraph, there was a Brexit betrayal. But we mustn't really talk about Brexit because Chris, who's a listener, doesn't like it when we do.

[B]

Why does Chris get extra special clout and opinion?

[A]

Because he bothered to email me.

[B]

So did somebody else, but I didn't share it with you because they agreed with you. Ian, on the last episode when you talked about Gaza, you were absolutely block Capital's right on this. So it goes on.

[A]

Yeah, whenever I'm right. She then doesn't read the rest of it anyway. Gibraltar. You've got a little primer on Gibraltar. I couldn't quite work out whether I thought this was a Brexit betrayal or just complete common sense. I think I urged. I've veered onto the latter.

[B]

15,000 people enter Gibraltar every day to work from the Spanish mainland. You can't have a hard border. I mean, we're talking to and fro ing on an epic scale into seven square kilometres, by the way, is remarkable. Gibraltar, isn't it? It's just the most fascinating story. But apparently they might lose their VAT free status, which. Which is really terrible for the contraband industry that flourishes in Gibraltar. Those tax free fags may be a thing of the past.

[A]

Have you been to Gibraltar?

[B]

No, but funnily enough, my Romanian husband has.

[A]

I see.

[B]

Yes, he has. He was. There was a lot of Romanians and Brits, he said, like this.

[A]

Well, it is a British territory.

[B]

Yeah. And monkeys, as you're about to explain, apparently the apes. There's a legend that as long as there are apes on the rock, Britain will hold.

[A]

So do you find some dastardly Spaniards trying to murder the monkeys?

[B]

By all accounts, Churchill sent ape reinforcements during the Second World War. That's what I've been told. But just this very quickly on the deal that's been struck so that you don't have a hard border where cars are traveling to and from Gibraltar, you have instead two layers of security. When you arrive at the port and the airport, I as Brits, when we wander along, we're going to be checked not only by the Gibraltar Security Force, but likewise by Spanish ones, which you.

[A]

Can kind of understand. I mean, your heart says, outrageous. This is British territory. I'm a British passport holder, I shouldn't have to show my papers. But you kind of do if you want a reasonably open border. I think what's angered a lot of, shall we say more staunch Brexiteers, is the fact that this means Gibraltar would be part of Schengen. But if you look at it logically, put any preconceptions out of your mind, you can kind of see why that has to be. And if Fabian Picardo, the Gibraltar First Minister finds it acceptable, then frankly, so do I.

[B]

Just very quickly on the Gibraltar history. He's a barrister by the way, and rather handsome I think. I loved that silhouetted portrait of him shaking hands with David Lammy against the rock. It was things that stories are made of. But anyway, away from that photo photo op to the very quick history. So 1713 it becomes British. The Treaty of Utrecht. This is during the Spanish War of Succession. We take a chance. Thank you very much for that indeed. Remember, I'm getting a train so sometimes I just have to hop over all my mispronunciations. And the Spanish deeply unhappy. It's really the sort of gateway to the Mediterranean. It's been proved subsequently. I mean it was later on we acquire Malta. Big deal for us of course is Suez Canal. All those things are facilitated thanks to us controlling the Rock, which is why we've staked so many lives on it. Because you know, the great siege, the longest siege in British history started in 1779 when the Spanish were absolutely adamant they were going to win their rock back because of its strategic position. Totally failed thousands of our lives. There was this great moment where General Elliot learned to live or trained his men or set an example of living off something like 4 ounces of rice a day. He was an extraordinary leader and all sorts of great anecdotes from this. I think it's a 3 year, 8 month, 12 day long siege, something like that, during which we're learning to fire cannon from extraordinary angles down at the Spaniards. And that's where the word shrapnel is invented.

[A]

Oh really?

[B]

Yeah, because one of our generals is a shrapnel. That's his name, hence shrapnel. So there's. I don't know, it's just baked into it. And of course, Lord Admiral Nelson, the fleet visited Gibraltar prior to the Battle of Trafalgar. I think his body went back there. There's just this kind of epic element of daring do. And yes, I am guilty of listening to Americans telling this incredible story because they tell it so much better than now. Would be a little bit apologetic, you know. Well, it is part, you know, it's sticking on the Spanish mainland. But you Know the Americans when they tell you the story of this great British stronghold they held at. And as a result, you know, In World War II, it was an epic center the rock. And yeah, I really came to feel quite proud at the end of it all when I read a book written by American and I listened to two podcasts by Americans. So I've been slightly brainwashed. But the upshot of it all is, is the extraordinary identity of this country where when under General Franco there was a referendum asking Gibraltarians if they wanted to stay with Britain or return to Spain. What number do you think said they wanted to return to Spain?

[A]

0%.

[B]

44%.

[A]

44%.

[B]

No. 44 voters.

[A]

Oh, votes. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, there was another one, wasn't there, in about 2002. And at that point, point. And I know this because I published his book, Peter Hayne was Europe minister and he had come to an agreement with the Spaniards effectively about either sharing sovereignty or some dastardly act. Typical labor giving away our colonial territories. And they had. Tony Blair eventually had to cancel it and say, no, no, we just can't do this. And really all of these discussions that you. That they've agreed this week, they've been going on since then and a lot of people saying, oh, this is all down to Brexit. It isn't actually, because the negotiations happening.

[B]

Long before Brexit and very quickly in 1969, Franco's so proverbially peed off by this vote where only 44 people want to be part of Spain, the gates are locked. And then the Gibraltarians actually develop this much keener sense of their difference with Spain because they're locked out of Spain until, I think, 1985 when the gates are finally unlocked again, relying on Morocco, by the way, for their fresh fruit and veg. And if they want to go to Spain, they have to go via Morocco. The story is quite fascinating, but I remember it particularly because on that. And we're not allowed to talk about Brexit because I've listened to Chris. But on the Brexit referendum, as the.

[A]

Vote unfolds, I've done my best for you, Chris.

[B]

The first vote to come in was from Gibraltar when 95.91% voted to remain. And guess how many people and what percentage voted to leave.

[A]

That would be about 1500, 823 people.

[B]

On the Rock of Gibraltar wanted to.

[A]

Leave, which is totally illogical if you think about it, isn't it? Because if they're so desperate to keep their own sovereignty and they basically want it Both ways. They want the cake and they want to eat it.

[B]

And who doesn't?

[A]

Well, that is true. Yeah. They took lessons from Boris on that. Right, a question.

[B]

I've got to say, I've got to rush away in a minute and I am going to really miss you. I will miss you.

[A]

Well, yeah, Because I'm away for two weeks.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

And next week you have the lovely Albie Amankona joining you. And then for the following week, the equally lovely Tim Montgomery and I will be back on Monday the 3rd, the 30th of June, and I will be listening.

[B]

What happens if I fall in love with one of them or something?

[A]

Well, obviously you'll dump me.

[B]

Yeah. Jeopardy. Jeopardy, ladies and gentlemen, will you be feeling restive on your beach towel?

[A]

I hope so. I'm only going. I'm going Wednesday to Wednesday, so.

[B]

Oh, yeah, because he's got some books to sell in the interim, by the way, lest you're in any doubt.

[A]

Well, my book launch next Monday. Which you're coming to. Which. Leave it. Or the speaker of the House of Commons is coming to.

[B]

Oh, that's the swear box. I do have Some really interesting WhatsApp questions and points. No, I don't think I've got. I'm really sorry. And I don't normally scamper off. Normally I'm all about.

[A]

Actually, we said we do. We do two. Because you said you could get there in half an hour and we've got seven minutes to go for that.

[B]

Okay, go on. You got to support Ian on being able to afford kids. I'm from a council estate where having a kid was a tool to guarantee a council house. Having kids on the state's pocket is almost a family trade through generations. Major problem. Sensible kids aren't having kids, less sensible are. Poverty cycle, etc.

[A]

Keith Joseph would approve of that sentiment.

[B]

He would. And I don't know who that's from because I took a screen grab, but he says good day and he swears at the end, but otherwise he's delightful.

[A]

Right, this is from Dinesh in Icanum. Don't know where that is. Hi, Ian and Tessa. Love the podcast. Massive fan. It's entertaining and informative. I think today's has been particularly informative. I was listening to your discussion on the two child cap and the birth rate being so low in the UK and Lambeth and wondered what is the origin of child benefit? Would it be better to scrap the benefit altogether or keep the cap but give the mother who's usually the primary carer, or the Father a tax break for 18 years and or free child care, therefore incentivizing work. This tax break could be based on. And now an email has come up so I can. Based on the number of children with a higher cap. This way, couples could also afford to have children. And Ian may not have to rely on his friend Dan to wipe his bottom in his old age. You're gonna meet Dan on Monday.

[B]

How do we always end up somewhere near an orifice?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

It's unbelievable. Corry's looking exhausted. Corey. Sorry, Corey. Because there's another listener who doesn't like me getting his name wrong, even though Corey doesn't mind.

[A]

It's quite insulting really, isn't it?

[B]

Oh, God. It's because I'm like a Pavlovian dog. When I learn something wrong, I find it really hard to unpack.

[A]

Picket. I don't have a particular comment on that suggestion. I don't think child benefit works in the way that it was meant to. It was orig. Is it still paid to the mother? I think it is.

[B]

No, that's. That's child allowance. That's where you get this. Universal. Used to be universal, but now it's capped at 80,000. It's phased out from 60,000. And that goes directly to the mother. But I think the benefits are slightly different. I. I think they're for families, aren't there? I don't know where they go in a case of, say, divorce.

[A]

Well, that's the problem. It's also complicated that we don't really understand it.

[B]

Okay. So we're going to end on that slightly unimpressive. We don't know. Too. Too dense to understand a system. So luckily, we don't have children that need benefits because we couldn't game the system if we wanted to. Why did I put on that voice? That was terrible. Going back to my earlier conversation, you.

[A]

Were doing your Rachel Reeves impersonation.

[B]

Oh, God. Cut that bit. Corey. That was really snobby. I should have done. We don't understand the system. You know, we're too dense to understand it.

[A]

That's how I should Jacob Rees MOG impression.

[B]

I couldn't go on Jacob Rees MOG this week. He invited me because I'm going to Bath instead. Which is why I'm leaving you now.

[A]

Right. Goodbye.

[B]

I love you, Ian. And I love you guys.

[A]

We'll be back soon. If you've got questions for Tessa, Alby and Tim, where politics meets [e-mail] or voice note it on 075-571-87929 Goodbye.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

Hooray.

[B]

No, but I forgot to say it.

[A]

It's a holly holiday.

[B]

I won't be on holiday and I control the Instagram at Where Politics Meets History. I'm going to throw a tile at.

[A]

You in a minute for a week or two. No more Tessa annoying the out of me. Let's all go on a holiday. You've been listening to a global original podcast. If you've enjoyed it, please do leave a review wherever you get your podcasts from. I host four other podcasts which I hope you might like to try too. Ian Dale All Talk, which is an interview podcast every week, Presidents, prime ministers, monarchs and dictators, which again is a weekly podcast covering at the moment 64 dictators, one a week and cross question and Ian Dale the whole show. And of course you can listen to my LBC show live from 7 to 10pm Monday to Thursday on FM in London on Digital Radio Radio or all over the world on Global Player or your smart speaker. See you next time. Goodbye.