Are You Abandoning Me or Am I Suffocating You?

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Are You Abandoning Me or Am I Suffocating You?"

Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel | June 8, 2026

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Overview

In this emotionally charged episode, Esther Perel invites identical twin brothers Michael and Tyler, both 31-year-old social workers, into her virtual therapy space. The pair confronts the recurring tension in their relationship described as a “conflict dance” where one feels suffocated and the other abandoned. Through their vulnerable conversation, Esther helps them unpack the roots of their struggle, revealing themes of enmeshment, individuation, childhood dynamics, and the delicate balance between connection and autonomy.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Core Paradox: Suffocation vs. Abandonment

• Michael identifies as the sibling who feels "suffocated" or "trapped" by his brother’s need for ongoing contact.
• Tyler feels "abandoned" and becomes anxious or desperate when Michael withdraws or delays communication.
• Their dynamic follows a classic pursuer-distancer pattern, amplified by their twinship and shared history.
• Esther frames their struggle as an existential paradox and invites them to explore the underlying emotions.

Memorable Quote

• Michael: “I experience some of what happens in our conflict as smothering.” (00:12)
• Tyler: “I experience it as abandoned.” (00:15)

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2. Family and Early Childhood Dynamics

• Both were born premature with significant health complications; Tyler received prolonged medical attention for cerebral palsy; Michael had acute crises.
• This fostered a “we” identity—being referred to as “miracles”—but also imparted pressure to be perfect children.
• Parental love was abundant, but the experience was tinged with the expectations of being exceptional and the need to live up to their “miracle” status.

Notable Moment

• Esther: “You have mostly been described in the first pronoun, plural, a we. And your challenge at this moment is how can you amplify the I?” (09:40)

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3. Patterns of Contact and Connection

• Tyler is typically the one who visits, initiates, and seeks reassurance; he conflates lack of immediate response with lack of care.
• Michael acknowledges feeling relief when Tyler’s emotional needs are directed toward other relationships, yet the cycle repeats with new partners.
• They attempt to schedule regular calls, but find themselves frustrated by “bumps” – unspoken expectations and hungers.

Memorable Exchange

• Tyler: “It’s not as amplified when I’m in a relationship...the hunger is directed, you know, towards them instead of him.”
• Michael: “I experience it almost as a relief sometimes.” (11:38–12:04)

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4. Tyler’s “Hunger” and the Search for Legitimacy

• Tyler explores his internal “hunger” for connection, linking it to a need for external validation to feel real or legitimate.
• He expresses feeling like a “problem to fix” due to years of medical treatment, which affects his sense of self-worth.
• Esther draws a connection between being the object of care and Tyler’s struggles with feeling like a burden.

Key Segment

• Esther: “When you get so much medical attention, you don’t get personal attention, even though supposedly you get personal attention.” (16:21)
• Tyler: “Well, I was a problem to fix. That was the implicit message.” (17:20)

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5. Michael’s Experience: The Anticipation of Burden

• Michael describes anticipating each interaction as a potential caretaking mission, even if it doesn’t always play out that way.
• He feels pressure to respond with emotional depth to Tyler’s bids for connection, rather than simply engaging in lighter exchanges.
• The obligation to “mirror” each other’s emotional states is both a point of closeness and strain.

Stand-out Reflection

• Michael: “It’s pretty equal. It’s really just about that initial picking up the phone...I know you want a specific response that’s going to be emotional so that then you can get emotional.” (29:23–30:34)

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6. Vulnerability and the “Problem” Persona

• Esther encourages Tyler to voice the part of himself who feels like the “problem.”
• Tyler confesses shame and fear of being a burden, craving Michael’s pride and equality.
• Michael offers reassurance: “I only have compassion...I can’t do anything about it. All I can do is listen.” (26:39–26:48)
• Both recognize how their usual patterns of blaming or caretaking are protective, but keep them stuck.

Touching Moment

• Tyler: “I have, like, shame, but I’ve never spoken with my heart.” (26:35)

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7. Lamenting Lost Lightness & Mourning Childhood

• Both grieve the loss of the effortless play and laughter of childhood, when being together was uncomplicated.
• There’s a longing to revive that sense of vitality but uncertainty about how to do so as adults.
• Esther invites them to shift focus from “to talk” to “to play.”

Moving Exchange

• Michael: “I miss being children together. It’s something I mourn most often...I miss the lightness of it.” (36:04)

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8. Differentiation and the Challenge of “Mirroring”

• Esther suggests their current difficulty is a developmental milestone: moving from enmeshment (“we”) to individuation (“I”).
• They discuss the obligation to blend and the new territory of seeing each other as individuals.
• Michael recognizes that his sense of obligation now comes from within, not only from Tyler’s past needs.

Insightful Quote

• Esther: “Part of why we’re here is because you both are getting tired of your usual scripts. You can role play each other...but the problem was talking actually with a fair amount of kindness before.” (32:42–33:56)

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9. Risk, Levity, and Fear

• Michael expresses fear over Tyler’s tendency toward “big, physical, risky things” (e.g., motorcycles, intense romantic relationships), linking this to his deep worry and sense of responsibility as a twin.
• He mourns the potential loss and pleads, “You don’t have to risk your life to try to live it.” (52:26)
• Esther observes that underneath resentment lies profound fear, grief, love, and envy.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “The joy in living has been like, learning our differences.” — Michael (49:17)
• “If you died, I feel there’d be such a big part of me that would die, and I don’t want to lose you.” — Michael (51:01)
• “When you get annoyed with each other and you kind of go to the first floor, resentment, you’re missing the boat...There’s a lot of different things in this very rich, layered, deep relationship." — Esther (52:34)
• “I wish that life can be fun for you, too, not so heavy.” — Michael (50:32)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:12–00:15 — The introduction of suffocation/abandonment dynamic
• 09:40–10:06 — Esther frames the “we” vs. “I” challenge
• 11:38–12:08 — Impact of romantic relationships on sibling dynamic
• 17:20–17:23 — Tyler voices feeling like “a problem to fix”
• 26:35–26:48 — Tyler shares shame and longing for connection
• 36:04 — Michael mourns playful childhood connection
• 49:17–50:32 — Michael’s hope for Tyler’s levity and process of letting go
• 52:26 — “You don’t have to risk your life to try to live it.”

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Emotional Highlights & Turning Points

• Tyler finally speaks with vulnerability as "the problem"—expressing shame and overwhelming desire not to be a burden.
• Michael reveals the depth of his fear for Tyler’s safety, not just a sense of resentment, clarifying the complexity of his emotional response.
• Both recognize they are growing tired of old relational scripts and express a wish for more curiosity, play, and lightness in their connection.
• Esther reframes their struggle as a normal and necessary part of evolving from enmeshment into separate, individuated adults, specifically as twins.

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Conclusion

Esther encourages Michael and Tyler to honor both their shared history and their differences, to deepen curiosity rather than assume complete knowledge of the other. Their “conflict dance” is revealed to be a tapestry of need, love, grief, and hope—inviting listeners to reflect on their own family ties and the universal challenge of balancing connection with individuality.

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For Further Listening:

• Focus on segments at 09:40, 26:35, 36:04, and 52:26 for key breakthroughs and memorable interactions.
• This episode is a rich exploration of sibling bonds, enmeshment, and emotional individuation—with insights for anyone navigating close family dynamics.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, Esther.

[B]

This is Michael and this is Tyler, and we're trying to figure out how to do our conflict dance different. We're twins. We're 31. I experience some of what happens in our conflict as smothering, and I experience it as abandoned. And we're trying to find a different way to work through this because it usually gets quite frustrating. And there's a lot of times where I go radio silent or I don't know what happens on your end.

[C]

I get anxious and reach out.

[B]

And so we are still struggling to kind of manage this paradox, as you usually put it, and we're willing to talk about it.

[C]

Yeah, we're both social workers, so that may affect social media of this. Right.

[B]

We might be intellectualizing a lot of stuff, so if you give back to

[A]

us, that'd be great.

[B]

We are open and ready whenever you are.

[D]

Thanks.

[C]

Thanks.

[E]

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[F]

hello.

[D]

Hello.

[A]

Hello.

[D]

Hi.

[E]

Hi.

[D]

Nice to meet you.

[A]

Nice to meet you too.

[D]

How did we find ourselves here?

[A]

Well, we listened to you a lot, separately and together. And I really appreciate your insight. And this relationship here is like the one that is the most precious to me and to both of us, I think. And it's fraught with old things that at least both of us want to want to work on.

[E]

And who had the idea of working on it with me?

[A]

Was it me?

[C]

That's a good question. I I don't remember.

[A]

Did you start.

[C]

I think you did start it, Michael.

[A]

Yes, on a whim.

[D]

So I applied on a whim. And the whim said, gosh, I want to deal with what. What was the win?

[A]

How I experience it is the operatic feelings behind our disconnection at one point. Well, when we went off to university, it was the first time we separated in a. In a big way besides, you know, moving to another room when I. We. We were in fifth grade and doing separate extracurricular activities. And the feelings have remained the same even though we've worked on our relationship a bunch. But the feelings behind that separation have stayed there. And.

[D]

And they are feelings of what for you?

[A]

For me. Resentment? Sometimes. Mostly resentment, because I've often felt trapped in Tyler's expectations of wanting to remain in contact with one another. All the time? Not all the time, but pretty often. Sometimes within a 24 hour period. And sometimes that's stifling. Not all the time.

[D]

So your reaction to his pursuit of you is, I need more space.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And your reaction of him is, yeah, resentment.

[C]

I think it's a similar feeling.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

I feel abandoned. I'm the pursuer and he's the pull away

[A]

often.

[D]

Let's qualify. This has always been the model. This is recent. How would you say?

[C]

It's always felt eternal, I think because of, like, our setup as children, which was. So when we were born, we were born three months premature, and I had a touch of cerebral palsy that affected my left leg. So I got a lot of medical attention until I was 10 years old. And Michael, when we were born, had holes in his heart and lungs and was flown to Boston Children's. And so I got a lot of attention because I had a lot of need. And Michael was both closeted and I think gave a lot to me. I remember it as, like, watching him walk. And so I got to learn how to walk. Well,

[D]

so you got ongoing attention and he got acute attention.

[A]

It's a good way to put it.

[C]

Acute. How so?

[A]

Like, when attention was on me, it was like, for a period of time, and it was big, but it wasn't every night, the way that we had to take care of you.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

So when you say I've been the pursuer, is there a connection between that and. I watched him walk and I learned how to walk.

[A]

I've never made that connection, as in,

[D]

he was always ahead of me. He was always in front of me. More than ahead of me, baby, but in front of me. And I was trying to meet him to Catch up with him.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[D]

Physically, Otherwise. Yeah,

[C]

yeah. Even when Michael came out, that was a big moment because I was resentful. I was like, you had lied to me. I think that was, like, the first words out of my mouth when you came out, which is horrible. And I'm still so sorry.

[E]

I imagine you've had time to rectify that one.

[C]

We've talked about it a lot. Yeah. And there was a period of time, and probably still some, like, where I'm like, man, I really wish I was gay as well, because in so many ways, he was, to me, the model of, like, what it meant to be a human. Yeah. Like a full human.

[D]

Were you the first person he told to.

[C]

No.

[D]

And that was a piece for you, that you thought you were more special and he would come to you first. I'm looking at your face, Michael.

[A]

It's not how I experienced it, you know, because you were the most important.

[D]

And so that's why you didn't go to him first.

[A]

Yeah. I needed to audition it with my parents first. And then you were the next.

[D]

Your parents poured themselves into each of you as soon as you were born, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. They were so loving. Are so loving. And so my mother says she was born to be a mother, and I can only imagine that was heightened after she learned that she was going to have twins. So we've both experienced it as very wonderful, our childhoods, but a lot of pressure because of it, I think.

[D]

Pressure as in what?

[A]

Get straight A's, be the perfect children, don't fall out of line, do the thing that's expected of you.

[D]

You are a miracle.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

Live by your title.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Miracle has been a word that's been used not just by our mother, but by, like, both sets of grandparents when they were alive.

[D]

But what you're telling me, if I understand, is that you have mostly been described in the first pronoun, plural, a we. And your challenge at this moment is how can you amplify the I?

[A]

I think it's both. We have been a we for so long. We've explored our individual lives a bit, and now we're trying to, I think, come back together somehow. I'm married. He lives in another city. We've got different lives, but when we do get together, it takes a bumpy period to get in back into connection with one another. And I honestly, I think both of us just wish that we could do away with the bumpy part.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Describe me the bumps. Who visits who.

[C]

I visit him usually.

[A]

Yes.

[D]

And that's a part of the bump.

[C]

Yes. Yeah.

[D]

Acknowledged.

[C]

It was more acknowledged maybe when we were younger. Like, I would go see him in college and I would be like, why

[A]

aren't you visiting me?

[C]

More like, you don't care about me, that kind of thing.

[A]

But now it comes in the form of why didn't you get back to me right away? What was going on? And so I have to explain. Oh, I was, I don't know, doing the dishes or whatever. I went to bed earlier. I was watching a movie or whatever, and. And I'm here. I'm here now with you. So we've tried to make it a steady thing of talking once a week, but sometimes even that on my end, I perceive that you think that that's not enough. So the bumps have something to do with scheduling and something to do with unrequited hunger.

[C]

Yeah. It's not as amplified when I'm in a relationship, which is also a lot of pressure on my partner, I think, because the hunger is directed, you know, towards them instead of him.

[A]

And I experience it almost as a relief sometimes. But then he's with a new woman,

[C]

I don't know, pretty often.

[A]

So then it's not a relief that lasts.

[D]

And you're saying when I have a girlfriend, I transfer that need onto her so he gets.

[C]

I think it's depend more recently, not as much, but yeah, I think it's still there.

[A]

You experience your relationships often as like kind of love bombing. Yeah, it's like big and fast and wild and to crash.

[C]

That's kind of scared me. You know, those feelings, if they're that intense so quickly, I'm like, oh, that's

[A]

not going to work.

[D]

But if I understand something, as long as you are experiencing your hunger and your pursuit primarily with your brother, you can say, it's because my brother is distant. It's because my brother doesn't show. It's because my brother is responsive but not initiating. It's because my brother holds his distance. But once you start to experience it on a regular basis with your girlfriends, then you begin to say, maybe my hunger is my hunger not in response to a specific person, but in response to a specific relationship, which usually involves deep intimacy, trust, connection, and where I. Which I feel with my twin and which I feel in my romantic relationships and something inside of me is left unsatiated.

[C]

Yeah,

[D]

is that.

[C]

That's right. It's hard to like disconnect my hunger from. Yeah, Michael until I see that in that relationship. But then I don't know. Yeah, Michael's like an Easy scapegoat. And I've tried to figure out how to navigate those feelings through my own therapy with my therapist. And so they still don't have a good place for them.

[D]

What do you know about them? How have you made sense of them for you? Why is it that I often feel left hungry, somewhat lonely, as if I do all the work? If I wasn't pursuing, I wouldn't necessarily hear from them or really infrequently. I have to work so hard to be loved.

[C]

Yeah. So far, it's desperation is like, the understanding that I have of it. Like this. Yeah. Intense need from something outside of myself. It seems that I seek out, like, some attention or, like, excitement. Because originally with Michael, I thought that looking at somebody, I got, like, a lot of, like, validation that I existed. And then without it, I feel

[A]

empty.

[C]

But I'm still seeking this excitement. And that's boring. The emptiness is boring. And then so far, I've labeled the desperation as bad or the. The boredom is bad. Does that make sense? I feel like I'm jumbling my thoughts.

[D]

But do you want him to interpret you? See what he understands?

[C]

Michael. Michael usually does.

[D]

How do you understand what he just said?

[A]

When you feel lonely, what rushes in most is boredom. When you feel that boredom, you want to do something with it. Get into a relationship or make poetry or, you know, do something big with it.

[D]

What I'm hearing, and this is maybe totally off, you know, but something in the way you spoke made me wonder. Do you feel legit? Sometimes when we, for whatever reason, don't. We don't really feel legit. Like we have a right to be here. We seek legitimization through the way that other people relate to us. They make us feel worthy. They make us feel deserving. They make us feel lovable. And it's not because you were not loved, because your mom and dad seem to have showered you both. But there's something, Maybe in the 10 years of treatment, medical attention. It's like when you get so much medical attention, you don't get personal attention, even though supposedly you get personal attention. But it's.

[C]

Well, I was a problem to fix. Yeah.

[D]

Okay.

[C]

That was the implicit message that I. God, yeah.

[D]

You were a problem to fix, or you were an adored child who had some problems that needed help.

[C]

Yeah. That's the struggle. I. It's hard for me to connect to that.

[D]

Go ahead, Michael. You seem to want to say something.

[A]

Yeah, I want to understand why you feel it so deeply. Like, the first thing you say is abandoned. You know, it's a big, deep thing. And when we were having, you know, when I was like helping you with your leg and stretching it with you or whatever, it wasn't because like, you were a problem. It was because it was like, oh, it's kind of fun. It made me feel useful a little bit, but that's not really how I interpreted it as a kid. It was more like is just spending time and it didn't feel like a problem. So I want to know how, where it turned into you feeling like a problem.

[C]

Like there's something about the language of like illegitimate as a human that, that resonates because I'm hearing you say that and knowing that that's real for you, but not connecting like who, whatever I was as a kid, as an identity to that, like I can see dad setting up electrodes on my leg and like the cast, but I don't feel like a personal connection to it. So when you're saying like, this is an enjoyable experience for me, I'm not like, I don't feel the experience of it. Does that make sense and abandoned? Like, I think that's just a feeling like it's not that deep to me.

[D]

We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

[E]

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[D]

say more about the problem because the word is very loaded and it seems to still linger when you pursue him as well. And then it enters into your mutual resentments. You because you feel that he's not there for you and he because he feels that no matter how much he will be there, it won't ever be enough. You're shaking your head so and either of you like it and you adore each other and that's there too. But every time you pursue him, part of you is angry at him for not responding sooner and part of you is disappointed with yourself for pursuing him.

[A]

Yes, I didn't know that that second

[D]

part because every time he pursues you and it's unrequited. The problem grows.

[C]

It's an instant disidentifier from me.

[D]

What do you mean?

[C]

Like, I don't say I experienced my childhood. Like, that's not the first narrative that comes up.

[A]

It's.

[C]

I had an issue and therefore I was taken care of. And so my issue was the thing that experienced my childhood. Does that make sense?

[A]

I'm a little confused.

[C]

I'm still trying to answer your question of, like, talk about the problem.

[D]

You can actually, we can invite the part of you that defines itself as the problem to speak for itself. It has a very clear voice. It's okay.

[A]

It's hard to speak.

[D]

Michael, you don't know me as well, but let me introduce myself. I am.

[C]

I'm confused a lot. And I feel like I don't want to be a burden to you, but I. I do feel that way. And I want. I want you to be proud of me and, like, seen as your. Yeah, your equal. And it isn't just you. It's also dad and mom. It feels weird to, like, be a problem because you have your own life and your own problems. Like, and I feel like I've taken up too much space. Yeah, I think I'm. I have, like, shame, but I've never spoken with my heart.

[A]

I wish I could fix it and

[C]

I wish I could make it better. I can't. And I love you. And I can't tell you a billion

[A]

times how much I don't feel that you are a burden to me. I only have compassion, you know, And I have problems, but you have yours too. It's okay. You're not mutually exclusive, you know, I kind of want to hear more of this more often.

[D]

You don't often hear him speak like this.

[A]

Not like in himself, in the problem. It's more, why weren't you there? You know, it's more of a blaming, but of a. Putting the. That seeing that problem outside of himself. Then it gets a little confusing. Like you started by saying, you know, I'm so open to hearing it, really, because I can't do anything about it. Like, all I can do is listen.

[C]

I've never had the language. I think I didn't realize that I've been separating a problem from myself. I think if I were able to identify with problem more, I wouldn't feel like I need to run to Michael or get resentful. But to speak with my problem. I don't know. Some have some empathy for myself.

[A]

Where does it fit for you? Michael. Because I would worry less about you and know that you can do it all. Not all on your own. But this part can be. Not put on me. And it would free me up a bit to be like, yeah, what's he doing? I'm not gonna anticipate a phone call where it's gonna be like, okay, I have to take care of him,

[C]

and

[A]

I can just pick up and talk,

[C]

and it won't be a big deal.

[D]

So part of what you are resisting is that you experience when he reaches out to you, that they become caretaking missions.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And that he, on occasion, asks you how you are, but that's not really the focus of.

[A]

It's pretty equal. It's really just about that initial picking up the phone.

[D]

Okay. So it's a fear, but it's not really what happens. You anticipate burden, weight, responsibility, freight. But it's not actually what happens.

[A]

Sometimes it is. It does happen. Often it doesn't, you know, But I think, yes, most often I'm thinking, oh, what am I gonna have to deal with? Help with now? Yeah. Which I know it's not true. It's just the way it feels.

[C]

It sounds like you. You're. You're asking yourself before you get on the phone, am I dealing with Tyler? Or if I. Am I dealing with the problem? Like, if we're going to use that language, who's speaking to me here?

[A]

Yeah. Immediately if we get on the phone, you say, how are you? And I'm like, I'm good. I know you want a specific response that's going to be emotional so that then you can get emotional. That. Then we can both get emotional. Then we can mirror each other. Then we can, you know, like that thing. And I'm like, I just want to pick up the phone and say, hey, how are you? Good, good. Great.

[C]

What was going on?

[A]

Cool. Let's play a game. You know, it doesn't have to be that fear that I have, which is just this, like, tight knot, which reinforces

[C]

me feeling this, like, resent. Like, well, how do I pick up the phone? Then? I'm not always gonna feel happy or like, some days, I don't know. I think it's.

[A]

No, but if it's most often coming from a place of a. Of I feel abandoned. It's going to feel like a big, heavy conversation, regardless of if that's a big or feeling or not. The word was loaded. It is. How can I not respond emotionally? Because that's quite emotional language, you know?

[D]

Is that the greeting?

[A]

It's Hi, how are you?

[C]

What?

[A]

No, it's like, how are you feeling? And then I come with a feeling thing. And it's like this thing that wasn't there for so long and only started when you became a therapist so that then we can get to these deep crux issues where I'm like, why does that have to be issues that we're talking about? That is not all the time, but like, I guess it's the fear I have of like how it might be all the time. Sorry.

[C]

No, never thought. I. I mean, there's a reason we both became therapists and that like the therapy room especially has been for me, not something of like, of I've been working on. Like, this isn't a problem to fix. You know, like, you don't always have to come to therapy to have to be a problem, to have a problem. So that when I ask, how do you, how are you feeling? It doesn't have to mean, let's talk about the problem. And yours seems, well, I don't need to like be upset with you, but yours is. You bring levity to the room and obviously it's more complicated than that. And like, you give more than that. You're your own therapist.

[D]

But like, can I circle back to something you said before? Because I make a big distinction between I have a problem and I am a problem, or what I sensed that you were alluding to before is I was a burden and I sometimes thought their lives would be easier if this burden wasn't there. And at the same time, I got so much attention because I had my challenges and I had some serious health concerns. And so I didn't learn that I can get attention by just being light and fun and playful. That's his script. And then you said something about talking from your heart and not from your resentment, but more from a feeling of shame. And then you kind of departed from that again and you went back to your usual scripts. And it's very important for me to see them. But part of why we're here is because you both are getting tired of your usual scripts. You can role play each other and you'll be perfect to the teeth of what the other person says, feels and breathes. Yeah, but the problem was talking actually with a fair amount of kindness before. And now I just want to invite it back. And we are just using this word because it's the one that you uttered before and we can name it anything we want, you want.

[C]

Thank you.

[D]

It's an invitation for both of you to go inside of you, rather than do the protective, I'm gonna blame you. And that's for both of you, by the way.

[C]

I'm gonna make us cry just by looking at you. I, like, often want to thank you for protecting me. Like, you reaching out to do this or speaking first because I don't know how to express myself. And I admire you for that,

[D]

protecting

[C]

you from social interactions. I keep thinking about, you know, kind of hiding behind Michael when we were kids because I didn't know if I'd be judged or hurt.

[A]

When you're saying, invite us to talk about some place from inside of us, I immediately want to say, like, I miss being children together. It's something I'm mourn most often. And I miss the lightness of it because I did experience it as something light that I could just draw you out and easily make you laugh and we could just kind of giggle for a long time.

[C]

And

[A]

when I go inside with you, like, if you're. If we're around each other, I experience such life, you know, like such vitality. It's such fun, you know, and I most often want to give that to you, give that to us, you know, because it's just so nice to connect there. I would love to do that with you and like for you to bring that to me too, you know,

[D]

we are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

[E]

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[D]

Do you see each other alone ever?

[A]

Yeah, we make time for fun to talk.

[D]

You are to talk is very nice, but it's not the same as to play.

[C]

Michael actually before this session he's like she's probably going to ask us if we ever make time to play with each other

[F]

here.

[D]

She did. How predictable is she?

[C]

No, not so I've been playing.

[A]

Well it wouldn't matter so much the play wouldn't matter so much if we didn't have the crux as to why we come in here, which is, like, we don't often experience each other as this fun, light thing all the time.

[D]

How often do you initiate, Michael?

[A]

Once a week, maybe.

[D]

Initiate.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

It's not the same as feel obligated.

[A]

I gotta figure that out.

[D]

They've become mixed up.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I've begun to write music, and when I write music, it's like an easy way for me to just be like, hey, let's talk. I want to share something with you. This is nice. This is fun. Not. Is he worried about me? Am I worried about him? Is it going to. Whatever. So it's kind of an excuse to, like, connect without having to be so locked.

[D]

You both worry about each other, or primarily you worry about him?

[C]

I don't know if you worry about me. I don't know if I worry about you. I'm excited to hear about your life.

[D]

But you think his life is easier than yours.

[C]

Michaels.

[D]

Yeah. I mean, it's a strange word, but you get what I'm asking.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And you've thought that for a long time. He has an easier time than me.

[C]

He's lighter than me.

[A]

That doesn't mean it's easier.

[D]

What did you just swallow? Oh, both of you actually stopped midway.

[C]

So you came in to defend me and I'm not asking for it. It's a feeling. It is how I felt. I'm not saying it's, like, right.

[D]

It's also not about right or wrong. There's envy. There's a sense that he's had it easier. He may have had it easier on some things, maybe not on others, but they're not the ones that are most significant to you. And he looks at you and responds to you from exactly that place. He, too, on some level, thinks he's had it easier than you. He doesn't think his lightness is all there is to him. But you do on some level. You know, you have this sequential girlfriends, and it comes in into little comments.

[A]

Go on a motorcycle. Huh? He goes on a motorcycle and, like, bangs up his body and, like, does these big, physical, risky things, you know?

[D]

He does?

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

You, not you.

[A]

No.

[D]

He does.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

That's like, how else.

[C]

How else can I relate to you

[A]

besides worrying or become a therapist?

[E]

But there's also.

[D]

I want to be able to do what everybody else does. Tired of always defining myself through that limitation. I mean, I'm improvising here, but. And then looking at your bodies and faces to know if I'm on track or not. But here's the thing. I was thinking. I said The. The thing about twins, identical twins, is that you actually think you know each other inside out. And on the one hand you totally do. There's something that no other unit in the human species can have that. But on the other hand, it also at times curtails curiosity because you know, what's to ask. And I'm imagining that in fact, especially as you grow older and as you begin to have more separate lives, not just geographically, but also, you know, they're not carbon copy, you're not in front of the mirror, you're not just extensions of each other, etc. Is that you actually realize there's somebody to discover, there's something to explore here, there's some questions to ask, there's less assumptions to be made and that can have. On the one side, ah, that's uncomfortable, because I like to feel like this is a territory that's utterly transparent to me, called you. And on the other side, there is the. This is an amazing thing to have a territory that feels so familiar, an inside world that I think I know by heart, to realize that, no, not so much. And to me, a bit of what you're going through. This is one aspect, because there's many ways to look at it, but it's a developmental transition. It started with college, but it continues in which you have been so defined through how much you identify with each other. And now comes the stage of how you will differentiate from each other. And that process of differentiation, you are what is called monozygote twins, right? So how do you do that in a. It's biologically challenging or interesting. So let alone it being psychologically so.

[A]

Can I suggest something?

[D]

Of course, there's no permission to be asked.

[A]

We mirror each other. I kind of want to get rid of the language, you know, because it's.

[D]

I don't know if I would have said it as correctly. Mirror means a feeling that when I look at you, I see me when

[A]

I look at that. It's that let's pretend we're not each other's mirror, because we're not, in a way, you know.

[D]

You know, I met another couple of identical twins here, of which one came out gay and the other was straight. And one of the descendants, I always remember, is about how when they would do business together, one would pass for the other because he felt that in their small town, Texas, as a gay man, he stood no chance. And so when they would not know which one of the two he was, he would literally meld, blend himself into the identity of his brother and I visualized it as he was describing it, and I thought this way of being able to blend in with each other, that's what, for me is the mirror of the image of the mirror. But please give me yours, because just was my association. You want to get rid of it, but you want to get rid of what?

[A]

The obligation to blend, you know, and just come at each other with not knowing.

[D]

But you think that the sense of obligation is what Tyler puts on you, or do you see your sense of obligation also as emerging from you?

[A]

I'm not sure. No. Tyler's worked on a lot of things, and he's been able to not bring that to me. So I do think most often now it's coming from inside of me.

[D]

And it says what when it speaks to you.

[A]

I'm going to have to put out a fire. I'm going to have to mirror. I don't know what other word it would be. I'm going to have to go back into this thing that I never really felt like was there sometimes, but we were always different. So I don't know. It kind of says, like, don't make me into something that I'm not.

[D]

Which is an extension of half of a twin.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Which we are.

[C]

But what's wrong with it?

[A]

The joy in living has been like, learning our differences. Like, all my hopes for you, all my. Like, I don't know, like, I wish life wasn't so hard so often, you know, it didn't feel like such a intense thing, but I don't know if that causes you any issues, but it's loving. I see you dive so quickly into so many parts of life in a very big way, in a fiery, fiery way. And it's beautiful. And also causes me worry. And I work most with my therapist to learn to let it go, to let you go. And knowing I can't control you or do any, you know, let you. Yeah. I can't control you and. And control how you react or how you. What you bring to me or whatever. So that's like, the big thing I wanted to say was that regardless of how you affect me or anything, that I hope that life can be fun for you, too. Not so heavy.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

I wish I could get rid of

[C]

the expectation that you have for me.

[A]

I'll work on it.

[D]

The expectation that you, too, could enjoy life with more levity without endangering yourself. Because he. If I understood you well, he experiences a recklessness.

[A]

Yeah. He got into a motorcycle accident and was in the hospital. I don't know Last year? Was it last year? And, you know, everybody's sobbing around him, and he wakes up and he's like, why is everybody crying? And when I heard the news, you know, it was very life ending, you know, I mean, if you died, I feel there'd be such a big part of me that would die, and I don't want to lose you. And then in these past few whatever months, you said, oh, I have to get on a motorcycle again. I'm like, jesus Christ. Again. And it isn't just that with women, too. It's like, oh, just ride or die. She is amazing. This is so wonderful. I'm in love. A week in, two weeks in, and I'm like, why does it have to be so, you know, big? And will I always have to worry because of it? And so I. I'm learning to just let it, try to let it go, because there's nothing I can do. And my hope comes from that of, like, I hope that it isn't always that way for me, but for you, too, because you don't have to risk your life to try to live it.

[D]

Yeah, say that again.

[A]

You don't have to. We don't have to risk your life to try to live it.

[D]

You just brought a whole other layer to your description of your worry or of your obligation. I think you clarified a lot, and it's way beyond what you started with when you talked about resentment. There's fear. Not just worry. There's serious fear. There's grief, there's love. There's lightness and laughter. There's a lot of different things in this very rich, layered, deep relationship. I think that when you get annoyed with each other and you kind of go to the first floor, resentment, you're missing the boat. You're letting your annoyances direct the play, when in fact, there's so many more things going on. There's also envy, there's also abandonment, there's also shame. A lot of different, very complex emotions here.

[A]

I feel that I have a lot

[C]

of work to do, and I like that you brought up curiosity with each other. And I think an exploration about the mirroring and the biological piece to that

[A]

versus the psychological one is important for me.

[D]

I think that I would like to add on this menu also your deeper understanding of the fear that your brother has. I think when he just says, I worry about you, it's. It's way more complicated than just this level of the statement.

[C]

It's echoed in my mother and my sister, too.

[D]

Okay, thank you very much. I know we're leaving this with three dots at the end of a sentence, but I hope it creates a movement for you to continue it.

[C]

Yeah, it does. Thank you.

[D]

Thank you.

[F]

This was an Estair calling, a one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Estair that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producertereparell.com where should we Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise were part of the Vox Media Podcast network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsome, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julia Mapp. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider and the executive producers of Where Should We Begin? Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Ms. Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.

[E]

Support for Where Should we begin? Comes from talkaboutpd.com let's talk about Peyronie's disease, or PD. It's not widely talked about and some men may feel reluctant to bring it up, but it's more common than you think. PD can happen when scar tissue builds up under the skin of the penis causing a curve with a bump during an erection that for some men may lead to pain during intimacy and impact mental health. A trusted urology specialist can help diagnose PD and walk you through your options, including non surgical treatment. Visit talkaboutpd.com we all do it.

[G]

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