Burdens of the Family

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel

Episode: Burdens of the Family

Date: July 27, 2026

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Main Theme & Purpose

In this emotionally raw episode, Esther Perel guides a Hmong couple through a one-time counseling session. While the conversation initially centers on the husband’s recent infidelity, it unfolds into a much deeper exploration of intergenerational trauma, family expectations, cultural taboos, and the inherited “burdens” each brings from their childhood into their marriage. Together, they examine how patterns forged through parental conflict, immigration, and survival strategies now manifest in their own relationship dynamics—and what might enable healing and change for themselves and their young daughter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Presenting Problem: Infidelity as Symptom

[02:21–03:23]

• The couple attends therapy after the wife discovers her husband has been unfaithful, chatting with another woman online (“I found out he was cheating on me with someone online.”—Wife, 02:28).
• The husband admits to seeking distraction and excitement online to escape dissatisfaction at home.

2. Cultural Taboo and Family Opposition

[02:41–03:21]

• Their relationship began against strong resistance; as members of the same Hmong clan, dating was forbidden by tradition.
• They spent years fighting to be together, which paradoxically left them united against the world—but now, the conflict is between them.

3. Background: Childhood Trauma and Family Dynamics

Husband’s Story [04:30–08:09]

• The husband’s family immigrated during the Vietnam War (“They came in the 70s... escaped the war and that was it.”—Husband, 04:38).
• He experienced maternal abandonment at age 7–8 during his parents' split, leaving a deep wound (“Is that the first time your heart was broken?”—Esther, 06:55. “Yep, the first time.”—Husband, 06:58).
• Describes his own father as kind, gentle, and emotionally reserved, traits he’s inherited.

Wife’s Story [10:31–12:36]

• She’s the middle of eight siblings, grew up amidst physical and emotional abuse, parental infidelity, and frequent violence (“I learned how to dodge... my parents are physically abusive to each other. Mostly my dad, and then really abusive to us.”—Wife, 11:15).
• As a teen, she intervened to protect her mother from domestic violence, later left home, and was subsequently disowned by her mother.

4. Intergenerational Patterns & Transmission of Trauma

[12:36–14:46]

• Esther situates their struggles within the broader context of inherited trauma—refugee experience, broken families, violence, and emotional deprivation.
• Points out how their strengths and defenses (her outspokenness, his emotional withdrawal) are rooted in survival strategies.

Quote:

“This is not just a story of parents who abandoned their children, but... of intergenerational trauma... connected to the war in Vietnam, the refugee experience... this transmission is both emotional and psychological, but also exists on a cellular level.”
—Esther Perel, [12:36]

5. Infidelity as a Cry for Connection

[14:46–17:06]

• The husband describes infidelity as a response to years of emotional distance: “Little messages... made me feel kind of appreciated or wanted... here’s somebody who’s not yelling at me.”—Husband, [14:46]
• Esther challenges him to bring the same warmth home, highlighting the “split” that happens when partners act differently with outsiders than with each other.

6. Attachment Patterns in the Present Relationship

[23:35–24:43]

• Esther: “Your survival strategy at home was to make yourself invisible and go quiet. And your survival strategy at home was to charge and to take charge.”
• They recreate these dynamics in their marriage: when she presses for engagement, he shuts down; the more he withdraws, the more she pursues and pushes.

Quote:

“Each of us activates the survival strategy of the other... [That] makes you feel, I'm all alone again... This is all changeable, just so we are very clear. But it is learning to be in a relationship.”
—Esther Perel, [24:43]

7. Household Roles, Resentment, and the “Parent-Child” Trap

[26:30–32:14]

• The wife shoulders the burden of managing household tasks (“I have to manage you too. Like, do you want me to wipe your ass for you?”—Wife, [26:30])
• The husband frequently acquiesces but does so with increasing emotional distance; he resents being “mothered.”
• Esther warns: “The more you do it [make lists, take over], the more you become an intrusive mom... And then he goes and he becomes a child. And when he becomes a child with you, he goes to be a man with other women.” [32:05]

8. Cycle-Breaking Suggestions & Practical Exercises

[28:01–31:38, 38:17–43:26]

• Esther urges them to co-create household routines collaboratively—making it “our list, not your list.”
• She models “adult-to-adult” responses: being direct, consistent, and playful, instead of seeking to “win” or disengage.
• Encourages them to consider their young daughter as motivation to change: “She will watch you avoid her mother every time. And she will watch her mother yell at you... and then she will not know at first who to identify with... This is your choice. You can say, we're going to give her a different story than the ones you had.” [43:27–44:30]

9. Key Takeaways & Forward Momentum

• Both partners are invited to drop ingrained defensive roles and try new ways of relating—by recognizing, naming, and directly addressing legacy patterns.
• Making space for grace, humor, and collaboration is central if they are to have a different kind of marriage—and to spare their daughter from inheriting the same wounds.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the legacy of trauma:
  “You have a short marriage, you're a young family... but you have a long history. And the history starts not just when you're born.”
  —Esther Perel, [12:36]

• On survival strategies:
  “You're a whole different person when you talk about all of this. And she has no way of experiencing it…”
  —Esther Perel to Husband, [08:09]

• On emotional distance and collaboration:
  “For every dish you do, the love goes down. As crazy as that sounds.”
  —Esther Perel, [39:14]

• On repairing their dynamic for their child:
  “If you want your girl to have the family that you didn't have, you have to invest in the couple. You're investing everything in her and not enough in you.”
  —Esther Perel, [46:20]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:21] Introductions, presenting problem—infidelity revealed
• [03:21] Cultural and community taboo, family opposition
• [04:30] Husband’s childhood, parental split, abandonment
• [10:31] Wife’s background, violence, abuse, exile from family
• [12:36] Esther frames intergenerational trauma’s impact
• [14:46] Husband explains reasons for infidelity
• [23:35] Survival strategies; recognition of legacy patterns
• [26:30] Present-day household roles, escalating resentment
• [28:45] Esther offers strategies for collaborative play and rest
• [32:04] The cycle of “intrusive mom” and “child-like husband”
• [38:17] Reenactment of typical conflict (“dishes” scenario)
• [43:26] Motivation for change—their daughter is watching
• [46:20] Final reflections, focus on couple investment

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Overall Tone & Style

Esther Perel’s approach is compassionate, incisive, and gently challenging. The couple is vulnerable, frustrated, and intermittently humorous. The language alternates between everyday conversation and deeply reflective, often poignant insight—particularly regarding the emotional inheritance from their families.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode reveals how much of a couple’s struggle is embedded in their individual and shared histories. Through the lens of one Hmong couple’s story, Esther Perel shows that healing the present requires illuminating the burdens of the past, embracing vulnerability, and shifting relationship “choreography” from survival to real connection—for their own well-being, and for the next generation.

Transcript

[Narrator/Host]

What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin With Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's, and each episode is a one time counseling session for the purposes of maintaining confidentiality. Names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real. This next session briefly describes an instance of domestic violence and may not be appropriate for all listeners. Please take care while listening.

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[Esther Perel]

The initial request of this couple surrounded his recent infidelity.

[Wife]

I found out he was cheating on me with someone online.

[Husband]

I was looking for excitement, things that really distracted me from what I was experiencing at home.

[Esther Perel]

But the thing that immediately became clear is that for almost a decade as a Hmong couple, they fought to be a couple.

[Wife]

I knew that I had met like the love of my life. And then I was like, I can't be with him because it's a huge

[Husband]

taboo in our community. It's forbidden for clans communicated within the same clan. So in me and my wife's case. We're from the same clan, but we're not from the same family.

[Wife]

It got to the point where it's like, well, we're not related anyways. Fuck it, let's just be together. So it was an uproar among all my family.

[Sponsor/Advertiser]

For so long, they stood united against

[Esther Perel]

the opposition, and then when they were finally together, the opposition became between them. Chronic, constant bickering.

[Husband]

She only saw things from her side, and I only saw things from my side. And that's when I just kind of lost enough. I mean, you know, I'm just going to go out, talk to these girls and see if I can get my mind off things and figure out whether or not I made the right choice to marry this girl.

[Wife]

Okay, so every time you get mad at me, you're going to cheat on me, or you're going to go download messenger app and find some random person to talk to to make you happy.

[Esther Perel]

Is everybody here because they want to be here?

[Wife]

Yeah, I think yes.

[Husband]

Yeah, of course. Normally when we talk to each other, we don't really say the things we want to. So I think this will bring us closer together.

[Esther Perel]

That's a very nice wish. I would imagine.

[Wife]

I wouldn't imagine saying that, but yes,

[Esther Perel]

I saw your face. That's why. When did your. Did your parents or your grandparents come?

[Husband]

They came in the 70s. They came here during the Vietnam War. They escaped the war and that was it. I don't really know the details. My dad, he never had a job. He went to school. Very poor.

[Esther Perel]

How old was he when he came here?

[Husband]

I think he was 15, maybe 16. Yep.

[Esther Perel]

What influence do you think your father's experience had on you?

[Husband]

He. He's very kind. He is very funny. He doesn't really shout. He doesn't speak up. And I think I picked that side up from him.

[Esther Perel]

So he arrives at 15.

[Husband]

Mm. He meets my mom. They got married here, and I was born here. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

They stayed together.

[Husband]

No.

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

And you stayed with.

[Husband]

So me and my brother stayed with my dad and my youngest brother and my sister stayed with my mom. So she wanted the girl and the baby. And then my dad was like, okay, well, if you want those two, I'll just take the other two. The oldest and the third.

[Esther Perel]

How did that work out?

[Husband]

It was hard. I felt like I was kind of betrayed a little bit by my mom because I was the first and the oldest. It was heartbreaking. But.

[Esther Perel]

How old were you?

[Husband]

I was maybe seven or eight. Yeah. It was kind of funny because.

[Esther Perel]

No, it wasn't Funny.

[Husband]

Cause she hadn't always.

[Esther Perel]

It wasn't funny.

[Husband]

Well, now that I think back about it, yeah, it wasn't funny. But she'd always joke about, like, yo, you're my oldest. I love you forever, you know, my son, blah, blah, this and that. But when she chose my sister and my younger brother, it was kind of, like, kind of broke me. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Is that the first time your heart was broken?

[Husband]

Yep, the first time.

[Esther Perel]

We don't forget that time.

[Husband]

No, I still remember that day.

[Esther Perel]

So that she left.

[Husband]

Mm. My mom and dad in two different cars, my sister and brother in one car, and then me and my brother in one car, and then we just drove away.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, my God. You're seeing it when you say it, right?

[Husband]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. So you lost your mother very young. Mm.

[Husband]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Does she know that?

[Husband]

I don't think so. I told my wife that me and my mom, we don't really talk, and we're never on good terms anyway, so she's never a part of my life. But.

[Esther Perel]

But she's such a huge part of your life, your internal life.

[Narrator/Host]

Mm.

[Husband]

She is. And I think about her a lot. But, you know, I'm at a point where, like, I have my own family to worry about now.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, but the way you will worry about your own family carries the story that's inside of you, too. And you have a lot to talk to each other, but you're not. But look how she's listening to you. She's crying with you.

[Husband]

We don't really share stories. Because I don't want to talk about this.

[Esther Perel]

Why not? Because it hurts.

[Husband]

Yep. It hurts. And you just don't like to bring up the past, but it's just a way of me trying to be strong. But

[Esther Perel]

does it work?

[Husband]

No.

Thank you.

[Sponsor/Advertiser]

Sometimes it does.

[Esther Perel]

Sometimes it does, but mostly because it does live inside of you and because you do think about it a lot and because if you actually did share some of it, it would have a place rather than underground powers. You're a whole different person when you talk about all of this. And. And she has no way of experiencing it or appreciating it, for that matter, what you think is strong, which is to avoid all your feelings and circumvent them. There's not much strength to that.

[Husband]

Never thought about it that way. But.

[Esther Perel]

But you carry. Tell me if I hear that. Well, you carry inside of you your kind, gentle, warm, and funny father. And then you carry inside of you. How do you carry mom inside of you?

[Husband]

I don't know. I don't think I'm anything like my mom, to be honest. Too kind and too caring.

[Esther Perel]

You're not two. You can take the two out of it. There is no two kinds. That's a crazy thought.

[Husband]

Yeah, that's true.

[Esther Perel]

You're kind and you're caring, and you can say it without reservation. Okay, and who is your family?

[Wife]

There are eight of us in total. There's five girls, three boys.

[Esther Perel]

And you are a number.

[Wife]

I am number four. I'm the middle child or one of the middle children. My parents divorced and they fight, like, all.

All.

I've known them too. Just bickering, fighting, physically fighting. And so when I was 18, I guess my mom must have caught my dad cheating. And then he was just like, why are you going through my shit?

[Sponsor/Advertiser]

Blah, blah, blah.

[Wife]

And he got violent and they're just yelling.

[Esther Perel]

The violence, the physical violence was mainly between the parents, or it was everybody.

[Wife]

Oh, it was everybody. But, you know, like, when I did bad stuff growing up, like, you learn how to dodge. But my parents are physically abusive to each other. Mostly my dad, and then really abusive to us. Growing up, I witnessed my grandparents beat my aunts for going out too late. My uncles put holes in the walls.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, my God.

[Wife]

So, yeah, so that night, when I decided that it was enough, it was enough. I went downstairs to stop the fighting. I went to go protect my mom, and my younger brother pushed my dad out of the way. I called 911 and everyone's like, who called the cops? Who called the cops? I'm like, I don't care. I'm protecting my mom. That I believe it was that summer or it was soon, where I decided, I'm leaving. I'm moving out. It wasn't until, like, later I get to call my mom, and my mom's like, where are you? I'm like, I moved out. You're a double child. You're the worst child I have. She's like, don't you ever call me for anything. Don't you ever call me.

[Esther Perel]

What is immediately apparent here is that this is not just a story of parents who abandoned their children, but also a larger story of intergenerational trauma of a few generations connected to the war in Vietnam, connected to the refugee experience coming to the United States, and that this transmission is both emotional and psychological, but also exists on a cellular level. You have a short marriage, you're a young family. You have a two year old, but you have a long history. And the history starts not just when you're born. History starts when your grandparents arrive. History starts with how all these people intersect with each other. The history starts when your mom abandons you and when your mom abandons you just after you try to actually save her. And a very outspoken person with a very kind person have a lot to learn from each other. The kind person, he calls himself kind, but what he's trying to say is that he doesn't always stand up for himself, but he meets and marries a woman who does stand up for herself and pays a very heavy price for it, but will do it. And then from the kind of violent, destructive family that you come to have him be so gentle is a kind of a relief to your nervous system. And now the challenge is how you're going to make those goodies give you the life and the marriage that you want to have. So where does your infidelity play into that story? Does it have anything to do with all what we've talked about, or it's yet another story?

[Husband]

My infidelity comes in after a long time of bearing a lot of weight. Over the years, things have started to almost plateau. We don't talk much. Whenever we do talk about certain things, we tend to disagree. And with disagreement comes frustration. Misunderstanding makes me question whether or not I'm in the right place in this marriage. So in my mind, I'm thinking, you know, I need to. Maybe I need to start branching out. So I started talking to this girl, and she just, like, you know, say, hi, how are you doing? What's your plan for tonight? It got to the point where we were calling each other, like, names like babe and honey and all that stuff, because she was very flirty. I was very flirty, too. And I thought it was kind of fun to get those kind of messages because it made me feel kind of appreciated or wanted. Here's somebody who's not yelling at me whenever I come up with an idea or someone that we just say, hey, good morning, honey. How are you? Hope you have a good day. Little messages like that kind of made me feel good, but, you know, I knew I messed up because you told me you saw all those messages.

Right?

And she's like, why are you guys calling each other babe? And then I just told her, hey, you know, I'm talking to this lady online. And then that's what happened.

[Esther Perel]

And now do you ask her in the morning, hi, honey, how are you? Good morning?

[Husband]

Yep. Every now and then I'll say, good morning.

[Esther Perel]

Why is it every now and then

[Husband]

I'm not a morning person?

[Esther Perel]

It doesn't matter. What I'm saying is if you understood that being nice and warm and friendly is very endearing, why don't you do it with your wife? You're upset that she's not doing it with you, but you're giving her the same.

[Husband]

Yeah, it's like me trying to make say those kind of things from, like, genuinely wanting to say those kind of things. And so I can't just say, hey, good morning, honey. How are you doing? Because in bed, I'm like, no, I don't want to wake up. I'm not ready for this day and not having to worry about, oh, hey, honey, how are you doing? Good morning.

[Esther Perel]

I'm missing something. If you want things to be better at home, the charming person that chats online has to also come home on occasion.

[Husband]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

This woman is nice to you because she gets a different kind of guy than this woman. If you want her to also be softer and kinder to you, you have to be more available to her in that way as well. Obviously, you're tired for your family, but you're not tired for your games or for your chats. So you have the energy.

[Wife]

Why?

[Esther Perel]

Because we get energized when it's fun and playful and we get attention, it's energizing.

[Husband]

Yeah, it's a good point.

[Esther Perel]

But if you brought 10% of that energy and playfulness and charm home, you'd get something back too.

[Husband]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

This is something that comes up very often, this idea that there are two different people, the partner and the lover. And they are essentially different. One is a nag, always in a bad mood, negative, critical, and the other is charming and fun and playful. But what's missing is the fact that he himself is acting very differently. A charming person will elicit a more charming response. On the other side, his wife doesn't react to him the way that the other woman does because he brings something else to the wife than he brings to the other woman.

[Sponsor/Advertiser]

It's an interactive dance.

[Esther Perel]

It's not just an essentialist difference between two people.

[Sponsor/Advertiser]

We are in the midst of our session.

[Esther Perel]

There is still so much to talk about.

[Sponsor/Advertiser]

We need to take a brief break,

[Esther Perel]

so stay with us.

[Sponsor/Advertiser]

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[Narrator/Host]

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[Esther Perel]

You know your survival strategy at home was to make yourself invisible and go quiet. And your survival strategy at home was to charge and to take charge. And then that's what you're doing now. When things get tough, you shut down and you charge. And the more she charges and the more you think you need to go and shut down. And this very trait that you like so much of her stepping in now becomes the opposite, becomes a thing you need to avoid at all costs. And the very ability to contain himself that you so appreciate from him now becomes the thing you can't stand because he's like a robot in the house.

[Husband]

That's how our relationship is now. I just kind of shut down and whatever she says I need to do, I just do it. But it's a never ending cycle. You know, one day leads to another day and another day leads to forever.

[Esther Perel]

But you do see that your withdrawing creates her charging. Yeah, and her charging you're charging leads to his withdrawal. It's like each of us activates the survival strategy of the other because when you charge, it makes him more vulnerable. And then he goes into his defense mode, his survival mode. And when he goes inward, you start to feel, I'm all alone again. All the battles of my life are on my shoulder. There's never anybody there for me. And then that makes you feel like you have to arm yourself. This is all changeable, just so we are very clear. But it is learning to be in a relationship. You have to also understand that you come with tremendous trauma and you're trying to do something that will be better and that will be different. And now you're in phase two. Phase one was, we're going to make this happen no matter what. For whatever reason, you decided she was worth fighting for all these years, but now that you are with her, you're not fighting for her or for your relationship. You're just fighting for your survival. That's too bad. Nine years you fought for her and now all you're trying to do is avoid her. That's off

[Wife]

when you start playing your video games. And I'm just looking there, I'm like, we have things to do. We have the house to clean, we have dinner to make. Wait, are you not hungry? Do you never use a bathroom? And here I am trying to manage a household. Manage. Manage a career. And I'm like, I have to manage you too. Like, do you want me to wipe your ass for you? And then that's why I'm always like, do you need help? How can I help you? Because I know that you might Think all. Everything I'm throwing at you is difficult, but you don't say anything. So I'm just. I'm always like, do you need help? How can I help you?

[Husband]

I see things as. Or. What we need to do as a married couple is how do we find time for each other? Because we're always busy doing things in life. There's never enough time. Right. We have eight hours a day at work, and then maybe another, what, five, six hours at home before we have to go to bed. Most of those times lately have involved things that don't incorporate each other. So we're always away from each other. We never get to see each other. And then when we do see each other, it's like, oh, we have to do this and that. So we split up again. And that's what frustrates me, because how do we find time for each other?

[Esther Perel]

What I hear him asking is more closeness and intimacy. What I see her hearing is that he wants to slack off and that she needs an adult. But I do think that his request is part of an adult relationship, but he needs to find a better way of doing it. Can I give you a suggestion?

[Husband]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

At this point, when you want to play, she thinks, I need an adult. There's so much to do, and you need to convince her that adults have the permission to play as well. So if you sit down at some point and you say, let's just chill for a bit, and she comes in with a list, you can say, you know what? We've just worked for the last three hours. We're going to take a break together, and we'll get to the list later. I'll engage with you on the list, but I'm going to help you to give yourself permission to stop for a minute. That's an equal partner. That's an adult response rather than, she's a party pooper. I want to have fun. She doesn't know how to have fun. All she wants to do is lists. So I'm just gonna tune her out and continue to play in my head. Help her. She, too, wants to chill, but she doesn't necessarily know when it's okay to stop, if she can stop, even if everything isn't done.

[Husband]

Finding a balance, it sounds like.

[Esther Perel]

Can you imagine?

[Husband]

Mm.

[Esther Perel]

So you come down, you sit for a minute, and she says. And she comes up with the list, and instead of trying to tune her out, you engage with her, and you simply say, look, I think we can take a moment right now, but say it with conviction.

[Husband]

Otherwise, she thinks I'm attacking her.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Husband]

Or disagreeing with her.

[Esther Perel]

You want to reassure her rather than disagree with her. She ain't going to be easy to convince.

[Husband]

No, it's not okay.

[Esther Perel]

And that's where you are going to practice becoming more outspoken. That's what you wanted. That's why you picked her. Why is it not going to be easy? Not because she's being obstinate to you, but because she was number four among eight and she had four that she took care of the whole time. Do you think she learned to play anywhere? No, because she left her family without a penny and just a mattress and had to build everything on her own. It's not because she's just being nasty to you. It's because she doesn't know how to. This is such a classic. It presents as one person nags the other for more things to do. And the other kind of saying, can you never just stop and give me a break? And the truth is, no, they can't. But not because they're an act, but because they've never been able to give themselves a break either, because that was not an option in their life. And that's why he can offer the repair to her, but he needs to be firm, consistent.

[Sponsor/Advertiser]

He needs to know that the challenge

[Esther Perel]

that he's taking on is the challenge of repair.

[Wife]

I just feel like I say too much for him. I say things for him. I make his list for him. I make his calendars for him. And I'm just like, oh, my God, I'm just over it. I'm done. Like.

[Esther Perel]

But you don't. You continue to do it.

[Wife]

I continue to do it.

[Esther Perel]

The more you do it, and the more you become an intrusive mom. And then he goes and he becomes a child. And when he becomes a child with you, he goes to be a man with other women.

[Wife]

Right?

[Esther Perel]

So that's the structure that has to change. The more you do what you do, the more you infantilize him. Now, he doesn't say, it's okay, I can handle my own lists. Don't do this. He let you do it, and he resent you for it. And then he'll go and find somebody who wants him and who is nice to him and who flirts with him because he doesn't flirt with you. And you will blame her for not flirting. It's both of you. It's true, she's no fun if all she talks about is lists. But you're not saying to her, stop.

[Husband]

Yeah, I don't say no.

[Esther Perel]

Often you say no in your own passive aggressive way. By avoiding her, by not doing it, by letting her repeat it, by going and playing with others. You do say no, but not in a simply engaged, equal to equal person. So let's pick an example and practice this for a minute just so you have a sense, a little bit of how this feels and how it lives in your bodies. What's a classic? Give me one of your top tens.

[Husband]

Pick one.

[Wife]

Mm.

[Husband]

We'll do dishes.

[Esther Perel]

We've reached a moment where we have connected many dots. But this piece about how he can say no while remaining connected demands practice. And so any example is good. They choose the dishes, but the dishes are never the dishes. The dishes represent her sense of responsibility. The dishes represent his lack of connection. We have to think metaphorically.

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[Esther Perel]

toothbrushes, dishes, garbage cans, snow tires, and lawn mowing, it's important that we remember these are stand ins for deeper needs.

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We need to take a break, but

[Esther Perel]

please stay with us.

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[Narrator/Host]

So I have three kids and my husband and two dogs. And so everyone in the house, not the dogs, but everyone gets a color. And so if you're green, you can quickly scan the calendar and say like, okay, six stops today. Got it.

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[Esther Perel]

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[Wife]

My line is go do your dishes. Go do the dishes.

[Esther Perel]

So you tell him, yeah, I'm just

[Wife]

like, hey, can you do the dishes? And he just goes, no, no.

[Esther Perel]

But he says he's gonna tell me, oh, okay.

[Husband]

My immediate response on a normal daily, I would say, why?

[Wife]

Why?

[Husband]

Why? Like why now?

[Esther Perel]

And then you say, because it's full,

[Wife]

that the sink is full.

[Esther Perel]

All right, so you fall for the trap. And then you say, fall for the trap.

[Husband]

I say, if it's full, then why don't you go do the dishes?

[Wife]

Well, the reason why the dishes are there is because I put them all in there from cooking. So it's like, I'm still cooking. Can you go do the dishes so that I can reuse them?

[Husband]

I'll say, okay, and then you get.

[Esther Perel]

You go do it. But basically you go do it. And the price to the relationship is a few more inches of distance

[Husband]

pretty much, because I know she's not gonna do it. So I do it right?

[Esther Perel]

That's okay, you do it. But the emotional distancing that accompanies it goes in the bucket of the diminished intimacy. Collaboration and connection and communication between the two of you. Every time you oblige, the relationship suffers. For every dish you do, the love goes down. As crazy as that sounds,

[Husband]

I think it's true. Because I've been feeling. Having those kind of thoughts as I'm doing these things. Not just dishes, but anything in general, like, man, did I marry the right girl? You know, things like that come to my mind, like, man, what I get myself into.

[Esther Perel]

But it's so interesting how people always ask themselves, how is it that this is not the person that I thought she was? They never ask themselves, how different am I from the person she thought I was? It's both ends.

[Husband]

It is.

[Esther Perel]

So imagine that you come and you say, can you do the dishes? How do you answer her from the position of an adult?

[Husband]

Now?

I don't know, Because every time I personally, every time I try to, there's always conflict.

[Esther Perel]

Tell me more. What are we talking about?

[Husband]

So I would say, let's do the dishes tomorrow morning. It never gets done in the morning, and I usually try to rush home after work to do the dishes. So I can just do it and get it out of the way before I get yelled at or before she finds out.

[Esther Perel]

But she understood that I get yelled at and she finds out. That is the way a child speaks about a parent, Right? That is not an equal adult.

[Husband]

That's what I'm saying. Like, I don't know how to find that equality.

[Wife]

It's kind of funny because he acts like a child. That's why I yell at him.

[Husband]

Well, to de escalate the situation. Of course I'm not de escalating it. I'm like, I don't want to make it bigger than it really is. It's just a pile of dishes. It's not that big of a deal.

[Esther Perel]

Then you just. Look, the more you're gonna do it like that, and the more she will become exactly the character you don't like her to be. So we're gonna have to change the choreography here.

[Husband]

Yeah, I'm trying.

[Esther Perel]

Okay.

[Husband]

Just don't know how.

[Esther Perel]

The first thing is, you put aside all the ways that you've already dealt with it that, you know, don't work. If you were fixing one of your it things, you would not try to do one more time something that you've already done five times, and it doesn't work.

[Husband]

That's right.

[Esther Perel]

That's right. How can we think about creating a little bit more of goodwill, warmth, communication, playfulness so that we not just become this rigid management ink but every time the management takes over, the love disappears. Because your little girl, she's looking at you. Do you have a picture of her?

[Husband]

Yeah.

[Wife]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

We think we need to put a picture of her on the table because she's watching you. And since you love her more than anything on this planet, you're going to do this emotional growing up. She's watching you. And she will watch you avoid her mother every time. And she will watch her mother yell at you to try to get you engaged. And then you will react. And then she will not know at first who she needs to identify with. And she will be upset at mom because mom yells. And then she will be upset at dad because he makes mom yell. And then she will be upset at mom because she's not nice to dad. And then she will be upset at dad because he's cheating. And this is your choice. You can say, we're going to give her a different story than the ones that you had.

[Narrator/Host]

Yeah.

[Husband]

We always think about her every day.

[Esther Perel]

But in this way, not often. Instead of saying, did I marry the right person? You can ask yourself, what's my little girl learning from me now? What am I teaching her at this very moment? It'll bring the best out of you, you understand? If I placate her mom, if I just get up, if I sit there playing my video games while mom is running around doing this, that, and the other, like a chicken without a head, what am I teaching her?

[Husband]

That it's okay. It's normal. But it's not. Obviously. It's not fair.

[Wife]

I create those lists to do lists and schedules because I want to create a tradition when I cook, let's all sit down, eat together. But he withdraws, and I'm just like, it's not a bad thing what I'm trying to do.

[Esther Perel]

No.

[Wife]

But then now I feel guilty about it because it's like he doesn't want to participate.

[Esther Perel]

But what is missing is Grace.

[Husband]

Yeah. Essentially.

[Esther Perel]

So that if he says

[Sponsor/Advertiser]

we need

[Esther Perel]

to tweak it, just simply say to him, what do you suggest? So that he doesn't just complain, but contributes. And it's not your list, it's our list. How is it working for you? How is it working for you? What would make it better for me is this. I would like to try that. That's collaborative problem solving. So if you want your girl to have the family that you didn't have, you have to invest in the couple. You're investing everything in her and not enough in you. Sam,

[Narrator/Host]

You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin? With Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and the cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Ester's monthly newsletter, go to estherparel.com Estera Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity and the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, estheraparell.com.

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