I Love My Partner, So Why Can’t I Let Go of My Ex?

Summary

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Episode Overview

Episode Title: I Love My Partner, So Why Can’t I Let Go of My Ex?
Podcast: Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Host: Esther Perel
Air Date: August 3, 2026

This episode features a deeply moving one-on-one session between renowned psychotherapist Esther Perel and a caller struggling with unresolved feelings for a former partner. Despite being in a loving, long-term relationship, the caller can’t let go of her ex, whose presence persists emotionally and psychologically. Esther helps unravel the tangled web of love, grief, attachment, and closure, with themes of loss, family estrangement, and the necessity (and pain) of saying a final goodbye.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Presenting Dilemma: Can Love for Multiple Partners Coexist?

• The Caller’s Core Question:
  "How do I be in partnership with my current partner while also holding the love that I have for my former partner?" (00:19)
• She describes a persistent emotional attachment to her ex in the Philippines, despite being with her current (non-binary) partner for six years.
• Not a question of polyamory: The caller isn’t seeking a non-monogamous arrangement, but rather how to emotionally integrate both relationships and maintain presence in her current partnership.

2. Background: The Relationship History

• Timeline:
  • Moved to the Philippines a decade ago for the Peace Corps, fell in love, tried for a fiancé visa for her partner.
  • Visa, relational, and circumstantial issues led her to return to the US, where she met her current partner almost immediately, leaving little time between the two relationships.
  • There was no clear closure with the ex ("no hurt or anger... there was still a lot of love," 04:47).
• Complicated Layers:
  • The ex is 15 years older, has a child, deeply rooted in the Philippines, and cultural differences add complexity.
  • Reconnected recently after pandemic border closures, which reignited intense emotions.

3. Grief, Ghosting, and Recurring Loss

• The ex-partner intermittently ghosts her after re-entering her life, often due to new relationships or life turmoil (“…he just stopped talking to me. So then I was left with all these feelings,” 07:06).
• The caller copes by “obsessively” calling and messaging, unable to let go or move on completely.

4. Parallels to Family Dynamics and Attachment Wounds

• The loss of her father, who cut off all contact after divorce, left her with unprocessed grief and issues of abandonment:
  "So your dad ghosted you and you have no idea, I mean, why?" (12:03)
• Her mother also experienced mental health crises, leading the caller to feel emotionally overburdened and, at times, like a caretaker rather than a daughter:
  "...someone to hold me instead of me having to hold everyone." (16:28)
• Esther deftly links the caller’s relational patterns with her ex and her family history, identifying the need for external anchoring and fears around separation and goodbyes.

5. The Distinction Between a Life Story and a Love Story

• Esther’s Insight:
  "As the years go by, developmentally, the love story and the life story begin to separate. Not because they're mutually exclusive, but because they don't necessarily live by the same principles and criteria... it doesn't necessarily travel." (25:35)
• Recognizes that their love was perfect for that chapter, but cannot be carried forward as-is.

6. The Struggle for Closure and Integration

• The challenge is not simply saying goodbye, but finding a way to honor the past relationship—integrating it into her sense of self without letting it dominate current life.
• Esther’s Metaphor:
  "Does this story live in the lobby of my life… or does it live in the cabin at the end of the yard… a very important storage space." (28:22)
• Suggests that accepting endings and integrating memories is different from constantly revisiting them or leaving doors open.

7. Taking Action: Symbolic and Practical Rituals for Closure

• Letter Writing & Memorabilia Box:
  Esther recommends writing a farewell letter (by hand, not typed) as an act of closure:
  "A practice for you to say goodbye, to end in a way that is very different from the experiences that you have had around breakups and to find a middle ground." (45:49)
• Creating a "beautiful box" to gather memorabilia—cards, objects, receipts—to honor the era, place it physically in her home, and symbolically in her life (47:13–48:16).
• Sharing this ritual with her current partner as a gesture of presence and commitment to the present.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Caller:
"How do I try to maintain presence in my current relationship while still holding whatever this was from this previous [relationship]? ...how do I, like, not let this take over my brain and keep me from being present in my current relationship?"
[08:15]

Esther Perel:
"What it felt like, what you choose to remember, where you choose to hold it inside of you, what place it takes in your overall story. That's all for you to decide freely. But what the relationship becomes… that is a joint decision. And so part of what is driving you crazy is the fact that you're alone with this."
[08:53]

Caller (on ex-partner):
"This person in the Philippines is someone who feels like a soulmate. But, yeah, it's not my decision. And I think that is what is so hard."
[10:29]

Esther Perel (on life transitions):
"You live in your early 20s as your life has just been totally turned upside down by others … In that period of your life, you're not busy thinking, what is the distinction between a love story and a life story? Because you're living the love story and they blend into one."
[25:35]

Esther Perel (on storage of memories):
"Does this story live in the lobby of my life and every time you enter my house, it's the first thing you see? Or does it live… [in] the cabin at the end of the yard? … a very important storage space."
[28:22]

Esther Perel (on saying goodbye):
"Instead of calling him in this obsessive style… there's actually a part of you that needs … not to hold on, but to actually say goodbye. And that means walking back the bridge… There's no way of doing that that doesn't involve sadness and loss and grief, but also memory integration and sedimentation."
[38:30]

Caller (letter to ex, practice):
"You've meant so much to me and helped me be the person that I am. But the relationship or lack thereof that we have now… is too hard to keep holding onto and trying to manage... we need to put a pause on trying to connect with each other because it feels like it's holding both of us back."
[40:14]

Esther Perel (on closure):
"You need to shape it by deciding where in the house you want to put it... Your letters go into the box if you want to. The box can be totally beautiful... find a place in the house where to put it."
[47:13]

Esther Perel (on goodbye):
"We can't be partners is an observation, a statement. I came to say goodbye as a verb and an action. One's a reflection, one's an action. And this is difficult. But you're gonna take action for the final goodbye and I'm gonna say goodbye to you too."
[52:50]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:19 — The caller introduces her central dilemma about loving two people.
• 03:40–05:12 — The caller recounts her complex, overlapping relationships and lack of closure.
• 06:19–07:51 — Experiences of abandonment and “ghosting” by the ex.
• 12:03–16:28 — Family context: father's estrangement and mother's mental health, parallels with romantic entanglement.
• 22:05–23:45 — Revealing she was married to her ex in the Philippines; cultural and life-stage contrasts deepen.
• 25:35–27:19 — Esther explains the maturation process and the distinction between love and life stories.
• 28:22–29:09 — Esther uses the “lobby/cabin” metaphor for memory storage.
• 38:30–40:14 — Esther guides the caller towards a ritual goodbye.
• 45:49–50:51 — Concrete advice: farewell letter, memorabilia box, and the importance of symbolic closure.
• 51:06–52:50 — Discussing the difference between statement and action in saying goodbye.

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Takeaways for Listeners

• Love and attachment are often interwoven with larger life transitions and unresolved family pain.
• Closure is a process that can involve both practical and symbolic acts—letters, rituals, and honest conversations.
• Integrating past loves means honoring, not erasing, their place in your story—placing them in a "cabinet at the end of the yard," rather than letting them flood the present.
• True presence in a current relationship requires defining boundaries with the past.

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Final Thought

This episode is a powerful, empathetic exploration of what it means to love, to grieve, and to outgrow not just another person, but a version of yourself. Esther’s wisdom and the caller’s vulnerability offer deep insights for anyone who has struggled to let go, finds themselves caught between worlds, or yearns for a loving, mindful approach to moving forward.

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For further reflection:

• Would creating a ritual or physical container for past love help you move forward?
• Where in your “house” does your own story of unresolved love live?
• What does goodbye mean to you—an ending, or a new way of holding the past?

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Transcript

[Esther Perel]

Welcome.

[Caller/Client]

Thank you.

[Esther Perel]

Maybe we start by you telling me what is the question that you bring with you today? Because we can't address everything, and so sometimes it helps us focus and have a lens through which to engage in our conversation together.

[Caller/Client]

That sounds good. The question that I'm hoping to explore, and if I'm lucky, get some sort of answer to today, would be, how do I be in partnership with my current partner while also holding the love that I have for my former partner? And how does. How does that overlap? How does that look? Is it possible? Yeah, that's kind of the basis of my question.

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[Esther Perel]

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[Esther Perel]

is it possible to love two people at the same time? Or is it possible to be in two relationships at the same time? Or is it possible to be in a new relationship without completely losing everything that the first relationship represented?

[Caller/Client]

Any of these, the second and the third more so. I definitely know it's possible. I have been feeling it. I've been with my current partner for close to six years and have felt this presence of my former partner just always there. It hasn't dissipated, but the layers around that former partnership are just so complex. And I've recently seen him and so things have, like, resurfaced. And I know it's possible to have multiple partners. And that is something that my current partner and I have discussed. Non monogamy and polyamory. I don't think that is necessarily what I'm asking in this context. That's not what I'm looking for. I know for sure my former partner would not be interested in that. But my former partner is in the Philippines and I am here in the US With My current partner. So there's a lot of different layers around the complexities of maintaining relationships and particularly like the cultural part of relationships with my former partner, who is not American, and give me just a little

[Esther Perel]

bit of background, situate me in your life story and who are the primary characters in this drama.

[Caller/Client]

Okay, so I moved to the Philippines about a decade ago and did a few different things there. I moved there because of the Peace Corps and then got out of the Peace Corps and managed to find another job that kept me in the Philippines because I was in love and knew that it would be very difficult for my partner in the Philippines to make it to the us near impossible unless we were to get married. So we started the fiance visa route. So things didn't work out due to visa things, relational things, a bunch of things. Then I moved back to the US and without any intention, within like a month of moving back to the us Met my now current partner and have been with them for close to six years. There was very little time between the two partners. And when I left the Philippines for the last time, we were deciding to like move in different directions, but there wasn't any, like, closure. Yeah, there wasn't closure.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

There also wasn't hurt or anger.

[Caller/Client]

Like we were at the airport, like, very sad and like, we'll see each other soon. Like, there was still a lot of love and like planning to be in each other's lives. And then I moved back to the us, Met my current partner who is non binary. So I went from being in a heterosexual relationship to a queer relationship.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

So there's that whole layer.

[Caller/Client]

And then for years, truly since I started dating my partner, it was always something we talked about was my former partner in the Philippines and how much I love him and how much I want him to be a part of my life.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

But the role of a partner didn't

[Caller/Client]

necessarily make sense anymore. So how do I maintain him in my life? And then because of everything the world experienced for the years of 2020, you know, to present day, it was very hard to get back to the Philippines. And I just went back in December and saw him for the first time since we left. And I left March of 2020, so

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

right when the borders were closing.

[Caller/Client]

And it felt amazing. It felt like no time had passed. I had been preparing for this trip with my individual therapist and my couple's therapist for months. Like, I know this is going to be really intense. It's going to be intense while I'm there. It's going to be intense when I come Back. And it was.

[Esther Perel]

And were there other relationships on that side, too?

[Caller/Client]

In the Philippines?

[Esther Perel]

Did he have other relationships?

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Yes.

[Caller/Client]

Yeah. So during the time when we were apart, he did have a partner and for maybe two years, but when he started dating that person, he, like, kind of disappeared and ghosted me. There was one sort of communication that was like, hey, I have a partner. She doesn't want me to talk to you, so you're not in my life anymore. So I feel like I, like, grieved our whole relationship. And then two years later, she got

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

up and ghosted him and left.

[Caller/Client]

And then he started reaching out to me again.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Like, I'm so sorry.

[Caller/Client]

Like, she was actually the one sending you those messages.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

But you know me, I don't like conflict.

[Caller/Client]

I couldn't talk to you, but I want to be in your life again. So we started planning, like, okay, the

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

only way we're going to be able

[Caller/Client]

to see each other, obviously, is if I come there. So let's start planning a time for us to see each other. And, yeah, it just felt like we had a really great time and we reconnected and we were talking about, like, what does our relationship look like into the future? And then just like a week after I got back, he just stopped talking to me. So then I was left with all these feelings of, yeah, like, this is taking over my brain and my life. I'm not able to be present because I'm.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

First and foremost, I'm worried about him. Like, it feels like this is completely out of character.

[Caller/Client]

But now, as more time has passed, I'm like, is it out of character?

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Like, he did this before?

[Caller/Client]

Yeah. And I think, yeah. My main question that I like.

[Esther Perel]

So right now you're not in contact with him and you don't know why?

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Yeah, we are not in contact.

[Caller/Client]

I am being a crazy person and continuing to call him and message him, but nothing. There is no. No response or sign.

[Esther Perel]

Okay, so in light of what you've just told me, what is your question? Which one are we going with?

[Caller/Client]

I think, like, yeah, how do I try to maintain presence in my current relationship while still holding whatever this was from this previous? I mean, obviously there's love, and I feel like that I can hold in my heart, but how do I, like, not let this take over my brain and keep me from being present in my current relationship?

[Esther Perel]

That's a very different question than the one you had five minutes ago. And in part, it's because what you've just described is that it's not your decision alone.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Yeah.

[Caller/Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

What it felt like, what you choose to remember, where you choose to hold it inside of you, what place it takes in your overall story. That's all for you to decide freely. But what the relationship becomes, if it reactivates itself, how it sustains itself, and all of that, that is a joint decision. And so part of what is driving you crazy is the fact that you're alone with this. At this point, you're confused, and for the first time, you're losing ground, as in the ground under your feet feels very, very shaky. And I have not yet asked you, how does your US Partner relate to all of this? What do they say or what do they feel?

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

I think they are, like, supportive, but it's this hard dance that we do of. I feel like a lot of my relationships in the past have been very secretive around, like, oh, there's feelings for someone else, like, very, very monogamous, without any acknowledgement. And that doesn't feel.

[Caller/Client]

That is not what my current partnership is.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

But it also brings up a lot when I'm, like, unable to just, like, be present. And for weeks at a time, they

[Esther Perel]

wonder if you want to be with them.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Yeah, And I think that's. And I think that's complicated in my own brain because I'm like, I don't feel that's what it is.

[Current Partner]

But I'm also just like, how have

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

I been thinking about this? And for six years, you know? And, like, even being with him for those two weeks that we were just together, it didn't feel like, oh, I'm questioning my decision of whether I want to be in this partnership or this partnership. I feel good in my decision to be in my current partnership. But there's this. There's just this string pulling me that feels like. But, like, you need to be in some sort of partnership with him, and not. That's not, like, anyone telling me that. It's just, like, in my heart, it's like this person in the Philippines is someone who feels like a soulmate. But, yeah, it's not my decision. And I think that is what is so hard.

[Esther Perel]

And tell me, describe the string to me. What's the pull? And what have you been pulled towards? And what does this pull represent for you?

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Oh, yeah, so much. Right before I left for the Philippines, my parents got divorced. And so that was in 2016. And basically, since then, my dad has not talked to me. And so there. I know there are all these other layers of, like, the feeling of abandonment and just, like, being pushed aside or, like, not even given the time to explain why there's no communication.

[Esther Perel]

So your dad ghosted you and you have no idea, I mean, why? And it hasn't changed since. For 10 years?

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Do you have a sense?

[Caller/Client]

Yeah.

[Sponsor Voice]

Did he ghost just you?

[Esther Perel]

Did he ghost everyone in the family?

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Not my three brothers. It's been. Which is always so complex. I was maybe more on my mom's side, and I wasn't really willing to have a conversation with him until we acknowledged all the hurt he was causing my mom. And for the first year, we kind of did this dance of he'd try to have a relationship with me, and I would be like, I can't until we talk about all of these things, these actions you're doing. And he was just like, I won't talk about that with you. Our relationship is independent of my relationship with your mom. And we just could never get over that hurdle.

[Caller/Client]

He's never even reached out to me. It's not a matter of, like, he's

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

reaching out, and I'm still not ready to go about it.

[Caller/Client]

Like, I have not heard from him

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

for probably eight years. And that was all happening in my early 20s, right. As I was going to the Philippines.

[Caller/Client]

And then I met this.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

This person who I'm sure I just have. Yeah. Weird attachment styles with.

[Current Partner]

And I think it doubly hurts because he knows all of this about my

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

dad, and, like, I was going through all of that during the start of

[Current Partner]

our relationship and, like, processing all of that.

[Esther Perel]

So he was the glue that helped you tolerate the rift and the breach that you had that you were experiencing with your dad.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

And he represented something continuous and ongoing in the middle of a thread that had just been torn.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Yeah.

[Caller/Client]

Yeah.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

And the Philippines in and of, like, represents all of that, I think, too. And so there's, like, the layer of him being my partner, but then also, like, living in that place for so many years. But that me living in the place that whole time has the foundation of me being in partnership with him. So I have all of these feelings of this place being like home, but it's not my home. Right. Like, I am just a foreigner in this place. But it made it feel less like that when I had a partner to, like, ground me in all of that. So there's. Yeah. The complex layers around, like, am I losing him? Am I losing this whole, like, part of my life that feels like it's like, you know, like, I've had, like, a hole in my heart, and then that kind of filled in the hole

[Current Partner]

in my heart

[Esther Perel]

and what Else, what does this thread represent? Because the departure was not only. I imagine, or maybe I should ask it as a question. Was the departure a consequence of the unraveling of the family?

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

With my dad.

[Esther Perel]

With your dad and maybe with your mom too.

[Caller/Client's Mother]

Yeah.

[Caller/Client]

I'm sure it zooming out. It was not unexpected.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

But in the moment it happened it felt very unexpected and super dramatic and like I'm not talking to anyone about it. I'm just like getting up and leaving one day. It was.

[Caller/Client]

Yeah, it was just a very messy and awful situation. And then very quickly after that I left as like. Yeah, I'm sure a sir.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

A way of running away from everything.

[Esther Perel]

And what number are you?

[Caller/Client]

I'm two.

[Esther Perel]

And everybody else stayed.

[Caller/Client]

Ish.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Everyone dispersed a little bit within the US but honestly I've thought about for

[Caller/Client]

years reaching out to come on your show to have a conversation with me

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

and my mom because our relationship was

[Caller/Client]

so complex from all of this for so long. And part of me leaving the country was just like, I am 22 years old and I cannot support you through.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Yeah, just, you know, she was just at a terrible time and was just constantly experiencing suicide ideation and whether she wanted to be alive or not and how she was going to make it to the next day. And it was just a lot, A lot to hold and a lot to carry. And. Yeah. So I think part of this thread of my relationship was also just like an escape and like someone to hold me instead of me having to hold everyone.

[Esther Perel]

Yep. Yep. It wasn't just leaving because of your dad. It was leaving because of what it would mean to stay with your mom.

[Caller/Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And it was also being with someone who could take care of you a little bit or be there for you when everything at least here was about your being there for everybody. You got it. You got it. So when I ask you, what does he represent? It's a lot of that. And yet at some point you decided it was time to come back. Even though you imagined that he would come with you, you did feel this is not my place. This was a good transition. This helped me go from stage X to stage X. But now I need to go back to my. At least my. Are you back in your area or are you.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Different area.

[Sponsor Voice]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

And interestingly, you did the exact same thing in the US that you had done in the Philippines.

[Caller/Client]

Yep.

[Esther Perel]

I mean you don't stay alone very long.

[Caller/Client]

Yeah.

[Sponsor Voice]

In the good sense of the word.

[Esther Perel]

There's nothing, you know, and you, you had the same way that you had someone there that Helped you enter the country, make a base, situate yourself, be anchored. You met someone here and they helped you and situate and. Okay, so you are resourceful. You are very resourceful. It's a compliment. Not to worry.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Yeah.

[Current Partner]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes. Support for the show comes from Kuo.

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[Esther Perel]

What made you want to go back? What were you going to check out that wasn't in the official agenda?

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

That's a good question. And, yeah, another layer to my former relationship is that we did get married. Like, we had a wedding in the Philippines. He was coming to the US On a fiance visa.

[Caller/Client]

So we had a wedding in the Philippines knowing that his family wouldn't be

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

able to come to the US and

[Caller/Client]

have a wedding here. And then we would have had 90 days once we got to the US to do the official marriage.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

He never made it to the US

[Caller/Client]

after our wedding in the Philippines because he was stopped at the border for having tuberculosis.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

So there was this whole other layer.

[Caller/Client]

And so then I was back in the US For a while, and he

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

was doing treatment through the US Government

[Caller/Client]

in Manila to take his tuberculosis medication for nine months or however long it was. But I had, like, already lined up a job thinking, like, okay, I'm bringing someone to the US And I need to. So I. I had a job. But then I went back to the Philippines after that job ended. It was like a seasonal summer job

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

and stayed with him because I was

[Caller/Client]

like, okay, he's doing this medication, and then he's going to come. But then when I was back in the US for those few months, I started to have what you just described. Like, I'm like, okay, maybe my time in the Philippines is expiring. Maybe it doesn't really make sense for him to come here. He's 15 years older than me and has a child, and his only job for the past 10 years has been

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

working in a cockfighting arena.

[Caller/Client]

And a lot of that was like,

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

what is his life gonna be here?

[Caller/Client]

Like, is he going to be happy here being used to living on an island and working one day a week in a cockfighting arena? Like, does any of this actually make sense?

[Esther Perel]

And how did you answer that question?

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

By going back and trying it out for a little bit longer and seeing like, okay, with all of these now these new things to think about, like,

[Caller/Client]

I'm gonna go back and like, have these conversations in person. When I was in the US and he was in the Philippines for a few months, it was so hard.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

There were so many language barriers.

[Caller/Client]

And I started to realize how like, non verbal our communication was. And that went for like all of the. All of the Filipino friends I had. Like, it was like, oh, we're in such regular contact and now we're a

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

world apart and like, how do we communicate?

[Caller/Client]

So I was like, I definitely need

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

to go back and like, try this

[Caller/Client]

out and see just to make sure

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

that I'm like, these feelings I'm feeling

[Caller/Client]

being a part are actually true.

[Esther Perel]

So what I'm hearing from you is a kind of a developmental arc. You know, you live in your early 20s as your life has just been totally turned upside down by others. You arrive there and you meet someone who becomes a very important base for you, which he may or may not even know. In that period of your life, you're not busy thinking, what is the distinction between a love story and a life story? Because you're living the love story and they blend into one.

[Caller/Client]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

And since you are there and you're not checking on anything else, there is no need to ask the questions, what will you do if you come to the United States? Who will we be? I can adapt because I am in that very stage of my life where that's exactly what I wanted. A complete turnaround of everything I have known. Here I am. And he provides that for you.

[Sponsor Voice]

He is in his life.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

You are the one who is being offered an alternative story.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And as the years go by, developmentally, the love story and the life story begin to separate. Not because they're mutually exclusive, but because they don't necessarily live by the same principles and criteria. They don't look for the same things, they don't share the same expectations. It needs once or twice or three times of meeting, going back, etc. To actually begin to understand that. You may not have put it in those words, but you begin to understand that this thing is not so easily transportable. It lives in a certain ecology, in a certain language, in a certain landscape, in a certain rhythm, in a certain social environment. And it doesn't necessarily travel. And you begin to feel like, I've done the traveling I needed. You evolve. And especially if he's 15 years older and there was not much flexibility in the time when you were Even there together. And he basically stayed exactly where he was when you met him. You have a good sense of if there's no flexibility at home, there often is no flexibility in terms of leaving home. I'm talking about home as one's entire scaffolding.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Yeah, but you're also right in that

[Current Partner]

he's lived with his mom his whole life.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

And so, like, also the physical home, like that is. Yeah, okay.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. So in. I'm going to say something utterly. You know, it's the thing that just popped into my head. But he's helping you. He's helping you. You understand? He's telling you in various ways, I can't. That's not. I want. I can't. That's not us. What we had is what it was meant to be. What you're looking for now is a different story. Would it be different if he did it and you had a chance to say goodbye or this or that? Probably. But you're not somebody who says goodbye. You didn't come here to say to me, how do I say goodbye? You came to ask me, how do I keep it all inside of me?

[Caller/Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And then the question is, what does it mean inside of me? Does this story live in the lobby of my life and every time you enter my house, it's the first thing you see? Or does it live in the. How do you say, the cabin in. No, Yeah, I was going to say the cabin at the end of the yard. So you've gone through all the rooms before you arrive there, and that's a very important storage space.

[Current Partner]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

That is the essence of what I'm wondering is like. Yeah, where to put it into storage and how to access it. Because, yeah, it's, you know, like, if history repeats itself, at some point he's going to reach back out and be like, there will be an explanation.

[Esther Perel]

No, only if you accept it. You may say, this story is. This story. This book is always finished. This book is finished. It was very important for me in this way. It was probably very important for you in a very different way. You got to stay home and be with me. I got to leave home and be with you. And I am building something different. But this was very important. I will never forget this person who literally was there upon arrival at a moment that was completely unstable and in full disruption. I learned to love with you. I learned to make love with you. I learned a ton of different things. And you are a major developmental story in my life. And it ends when there is a transition to a new Stage.

[Current Partner]

Yeah.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

I think if he were here, he

[Current Partner]

would agree with you.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

And I just have.

[Current Partner]

Yeah, like.

[Esther Perel]

But I'm not talking to him. I'm talking to you.

[Sponsor Voice]

I know.

[Esther Perel]

So you tell me what you think. It's good to know he would, like. He would agree.

[Current Partner]

It's good.

[Esther Perel]

It's a relief.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

But, yeah, I think he would agree in that, like, that's kind of what he has said before when he, like, started his relationship after us, where he was like, you know, you're always in my heart, but, like, I'm now in this new relationship, and I just, like, could not accept that.

[Current Partner]

I'm just.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

And I think right now I'm, like. I'm hearing you say that.

[Current Partner]

Like, I'm trying to, like, put it

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

into my body and brain, but it. Yeah, I think. I don't know. I don't know if it's because of the history of my. Not necessarily romantic, but the history of my, like, familial, intimate relationships, but I. Yeah, I just have such a hard time saying goodbye. And, yeah, I felt like I was, like, making these deals with him when we were there around. Like, it's not goodbye.

[Current Partner]

Like, you're gonna be in my life

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

forever, but not as my partner. And, like, I'm gonna have this partnership, but I want you in my life, and I'll come visit you once a year and we can be together. And I think, yeah, in the moment when we were together, he's like, okay, yeah, like, I agree to that. And then I think after, you know, it had been six years, and it's just, like, everything was flooding back. And again, there's so many, like, cultural things that are, like, hard to navigate.

[Esther Perel]

But, like, what. When you keep. You've said it twice now. What's the thing that stand out for you about that?

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

So I have not. I was assigned to live with his sister with the Peace Corps. So that's how, like, I met his family. So I feel like I have, you know, close relations with a lot of his extended family, and all of his extended family still lives in the same town, village, whatever you want to call it. And so when we just went back, my brother came with me on this visit back because he lived with me here for a summer when he was in college. So he has. We have a lot of shared friends. He was really close with my partner. So we were coming back and we were going to pick up my former partner at a mall in the city, and he let us know right before

[Caller/Client]

we were on our way, like, oh,

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

my whole family is here. They want to say hi. And I was like, I don't think so. We haven't had any communication. This is a lot, just me and you seeing each other. And so it felt like that was going to be the answer. But then we show up, and he's like, yeah, just come meet me here. And then his whole family is there, and they're, like, videotaping us, and just, like, we've missed you. We're so excited to see you. And, like, that's, like, the initial time we're seeing each other after six years. And there had been so many what I thought to be very clear conversations around, like, I have a partner. Like, I am coming to see you because I love and care about you, and it's been so long, and I, like, want to spend time with you. And it wasn't ever spoken out loud by anyone, by him or anyone in his family of, like, are you guys getting back together? Is this revitalizing your relationship? But I. Yeah, it's. And on the flip, we were traveling with my brother, and he was spending, you know, like, a week with my brother and me. And so it's like, both sides of it. But then when I was asking, like, your mom, like, she hugged me and, like, said she wants me to visit her the next time I come, like, are you wanting me to come to your place and, like, visit your family? And that's all kind of confusing. I didn't know. I was, like, welcome back there. Because I don't know how our marriage, like, how that lands with everyone and his family. I'm a little bit more relieved.

[Esther Perel]

They all think he married to you.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

They were all at the wedding, like,

[Current Partner]

we had a big wedding.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

But they all also knew, like, he was not able, you know, the whole. Everything was very in the open around, like, okay, he's now being stopped at the house.

[Esther Perel]

You thought you were coming to bring your groom.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

I don't know. That's what I'm.

[Caller/Client]

I don't know. I don't know. And so then it's like, if that's how we first met each other, and

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

then we spend another 10 days together, you know, without any of his family. And it feels clear to me, like, that we are not exploring, you know, he tried to kiss me when we first saw each other, and I was like, no, like, I want to hug

[Current Partner]

you and, like, I love you, but we're not kissing like that.

[Esther Perel]

Is there, speaking of marriage in your current relationship?

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

No, but just because I feel like one is enough. Yeah, exactly.

[Esther Perel]

We are in the midst of our session, there is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

[Sponsor Voice]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Sponsor Voice]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Sponsor Voice]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Caller/Client's Mother]

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[Esther Perel]

You know, you arrive to the Philippines and you cross a bridge. And he's your bridge. And you are at this moment when instead of calling him in this obsessive style, are you there? Are you there? Are you there? Are you there? That there is actually a part of you that needs to call or to write or whatever. Not to hold on, but to actually say goodbye. And that means walking back the bridge. Because this bridge is going to lift and then when it's lifted, you can't cross it, there's water. And the call that you need to make, the letter that you need to write, is the one where you walk back to the other side of the bridge. There's no way of doing that that doesn't involve sadness and loss and grief, but also memory integration and sedimentation. Like it sediments inside of you and it becomes a major period of your life, but it isn't activated by the urgency and the young feelings that brought you there in the first place. So I'm thinking, dear X, now you. It's okay. Yeah.

[Current Partner]

This feels like one of the hardest things that I ever have had to do so far in my life. You've meant so much to me and helped me be the person that I am. But the relationship or lack thereof that we have now and that we've had for the past five years since I've left is too hard to keep holding onto and trying to manage. And as much as I've told you in the past that I would love to keep holding on and keep pulling you along by a thread so that you're there when I'm ready, I'm not going to be ready to be in a relationship with you ever again. And I can't keep hurting you by just keeping you pulled along and telling you I love you all the time. Because I know that's confusing. And I personally just can't ever close the door without there being some sort of potential if you ever need me. But I think we need to put a pause on trying to connect with each other because it feels like it's holding both of us back. But I love you so much and I'm so grateful for you.

[Esther Perel]

Is there a Pierce?

[Current Partner]

Yeah, but I don't really know how to say it. I'm just so worried about him, his health and safety. And when I last saw him, he told me he had started smoking meth again. And because he's just so sad. And I guess the PS would just be like, something that, like, I can't. I can't be the one that stops you from doing that. But I hope that

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

you can find

[Current Partner]

your center and your grounding. That's like the essence of my obsessive calling is.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Yeah.

[Current Partner]

I think the last time when he. When he had a girlfriend and he said. Or somebody said, whether it was him

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

or his girlfriend said, like, stop contacting me. I'm in a new relationship now and that's what I want. I was able to just be like, okay, no more. You know, like, I can respect that. I don't want to mess that up. But this time it's just.

[Current Partner]

Yeah. So much harder, like, seeing him just look pretty rough and like, as if

[Esther Perel]

your father doing to your mother.

[Current Partner]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And what you're doing to him.

[Current Partner]

Yeah.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

And I think that's why I have such a hard time with, like, impermeable boundaries.

[Current Partner]

Cause it's like, I don't know again,

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

like, I've never had this heart to heart with my dad to be like, what is the deeper layer to why you needed to do all of this? But it just felt the way he had these, like, these boundaries, so to speak, with my mom and me, of like, no contact, no communication. These are the things I'm willing to talk about. These are the things I'm not willing to talk about. Like, yeah, it just felt like there was no ability for anybody else to show up and like, have a part in. It was just. And I think this is like, my bigger, like, frustration with who he is as a person is just like this power and like.

[Esther Perel]

But also the suicidality and the Met.

[Caller/Client]

Exactly.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So you're making the connections.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Yeah.

[Current Partner]

And I just never want to, like. Yeah, I just. I do love and care about him. And even if I'm having this boundary of, like, I can't keep doing this whole back and forth and like, yeah, obviously I've pitched it to him of

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

like, I want you in my life and I'd make room in time to see you for one month every year if that was possible. Like, I've expressed what I want and, like, what I would be willing to give. But yeah, I just, I just worry so much and like, there's such a big war on drugs in the Philippines and.

[Esther Perel]

But you're also telling me I'm desperately trying to not have separations that are cut offs.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

To maintain an open door, to not leave people who then want to harm themselves. And I'm learning. I'M learning to say I'm not cutting you off, but I'm not continuing to promise you all kinds of things, which I am actually not going to do.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

And there must be a way for me to say goodbye without having to feel responsible over your life.

[Current Partner]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

Because that's the other flip side. That's the other extreme of what you feel your dad did from I care about nothing to I'm responsible for your life, which is why you left in the first place. So you can write this letter two, three times until you send one version. It's for you more than for him, actually.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

I think that handwriting will be more powerful than typing. And this is a practice for you to say goodbye, to end in a way that is very different from the experiences that you have had around breakups and to find a middle ground.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Yeah. And I mean, I think my job and my personality of, like, being a caretaker, caregiver also led me to reach out to you because I'm like, I've been holding this and swishing around and going to therapy weekly for years, and nothing has. There hasn't been any progress. Right. And then I tell everyone in my life, I'm going back to the Philippines. I'm gonna see my ex. And virtually everyone is like, not a good idea. Yeah. Like, why are you doing this? Except my partner. Honestly, my partner's like, no, this. You kind of need some closure because this has been like an open door from the get go of our relationship.

[Esther Perel]

Right. But you didn't come back with closure. The closure is something that you're facing now, which is why his reluctance to be in touch with you is helpful. But you need to do something with it. It's just the raw material.

[Caller/Client]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

And you need to shape it.

[Sponsor Voice]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

You need to shape it by deciding where in the house you want to put it. So I would like you to make a box of memorabilia that belongs to this phase of your life and to this relationship. Could include clothes, nature objects, cards, receipts, you name it, and just make a beautiful box. So it's always visible if you want to, accessible if you want to. But it's gathered. You gather the memory, you gather the transition, and then find a place in the house where to put it.

[Current Partner]

That's a really good idea. Everything is just because it's spread all

[Esther Perel]

over and it's permeating. And frankly, you have a very generous and understanding partner. But at some point they will also say, you know, exactly. Can we tighten the belt a little bit?

[Current Partner]

Exactly.

[Sponsor Voice]

Yeah.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

I feel like that's where the urgency of the conversation comes in was like, yeah, they were so willing to let me go and explore, you know, like, closure or whatever. And I, like, knew. We both knew coming back it was going to be hard. And it is obviously hitting a lot harder than expected. And. Yeah. So they're also at the point of like, it's okay, take your time.

[Esther Perel]

And also like, yes, I'm not here forever. Right. So I got it. I understood that what made this urgent is that it was not nearly as much closure as I think your partner hoped it would be. Or even you, for that matter. So I like representation. Your letters go into the box if you want to. The box can be totally beautiful. It doesn't have to be just a plain shoebox or you can beautify it, but it is a place where you bring together the essentials of those years. Then you'll decide if you want to have a formal goodbye or if that is your own personal little closure. And that. That suffices. That does it. I want you to then take your partner, your current partner, and show them the box. I am here. That doesn't mean you never think about the Philippines or think about it, but basically, I am here. Your role as Penelope, waiting for me to return, is coming to a closure. That too needs to get a closure. The box is not glued.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

You can open it anytime. But it is contained.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

It needs to be so that you

[Esther Perel]

don't feel like you're flooded and confused and unable to ground yourself. And you can do all the breathing and we can do all of that, too. You can do the walking, the movement, the breathing, the holding of the heart, everything you want. But there is also the symbolic way to contain this and to bring the pieces of the experience and the memories into a safe, contained box that I can open and close and that is not activated by obsessive rumination and phone calls and. And responsibility over his being alive or his using and all of that.

[Caller/Client]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

What would be the opening line of the letter? And we will close with that, but just only the title of the letter. If you want it.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Again, I would have to come back to the eloquence, but I think part of what I would want to make sure is in the title is gratitude, love and closure.

[Esther Perel]

Great.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

So some gathering of those things, like thank you. You've helped me in so many ways. I will never stop loving you. And we can't keep doing this dance.

[Esther Perel]

No. And I came to say goodbye. This is a. An I.

[Current Partner]

Yeah. Which I've never said to him even all the times that we've, you know, said goodbye at a border and just like, okay, we'll see each other. Yeah. It's never been goodbye. I feel allergic to goodbye. But I, Yeah, like I, I think it's reframing my. The way that I think about goodbye and not in terms of like how

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

goodbye has been said to me and

[Current Partner]

impacted me in the past of like no more communication. Don't talk to me. Goodbye can also be.

[Caller/Client (same as B, different tone or emphasis)]

Yeah. It doesn't have to be so in the. In your face, never a part of anything ever again.

[Esther Perel]

Correct. That's it. How to say a final goodbye for what we have had and what we have been.

[Current Partner]

Right. Which is true. Like that does need a goodbye. Because I keep saying over and over again like, we can't be partners anymore. So like I am essentially saying that. But it's. Yeah. I think it's so not direct and I think it's confusing.

[Esther Perel]

We can't be partners is an observation, a statement. I came to say goodbye as a verb and an action. One's a reflection, one's an action. And this is difficult. But you're gonna take action for the final goodbye and I'm gonna say goodbye to you too.

[Current Partner]

Okay.

[Caller/Client]

Thank you so much, Esther.

[Producer/Host]

This was an Estare calling, a one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Estaire that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send a revoice to message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producerteraparell.com where should we begin with? Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media podcast network in partnership with New York magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julian at Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider and the executive producers of where should we Begin? Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.

[Sponsor Voice]

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