In This Relationship What Is "I" and What is "We"?

Summary

Podcast Summary:

Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Episode Title: In This Relationship What Is "I" and What is "We"?
Release Date: June 15, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this powerful session, Esther Perel sits with a couple—two men in their late 20s who immigrated from the Dominican Republic to the U.S.—as they grapple with defining healthy individuality ("I") and partnership ("we") in their relationship. Having built their lives together after difficult, parentified childhoods marked by violence and instability, the partners now find themselves struggling to balance closeness with the need for personal agency, especially as they navigate issues of trust, boundaries, and intimacy with others. Esther's session uncovers how their family histories shape their anxieties, relational patterns, and their ongoing negotiation of independence versus togetherness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Background and Family Histories

• Both partners grew up in the Dominican Republic in environments marked by dysfunction and a lack of resources.
  • Partner 1's experience: Witnessed domestic violence, manipulated by his father into mistrusting his mother after she left due to abuse. Still supports father financially despite mixed feelings.
    • “My mom is a victim of domestic violence and we witnessed it with him. She picked up everything and she left…” (06:07, Partner 1)
  • Partner 2's experience: Felt emotionally neglected due to his mother's instability, learned self-sufficiency early, and relied on academic achievement to cope.
    • “I had my household life, which was with my mom, which was in really precarious conditions…my school life was my scapegoat.” (12:01, Partner 2)
• Notable Insight: Both became "parentified children," assuming adult burdens before they were ready, which deeply impacts their adult relationships.
  • “Both of them were what we call parentified children. Children who became the parents of their own parents.” (13:10, Esther Perel)

2. Foundation of Their Relationship: Safety and Closeness

• After years of instability, they became each other's family, holding on tightly for security.
  • They share a stable and loving home and careers but struggle with boundaries and differentiation.
  • “We had a very similar upbringing, which is I think one of the reasons why when we first met we connected so well.” (02:25, Partner 1)
  • “They held on to each other for dear life and after 10 years, the togetherness has been secured. Can there be room for the separateness?” (03:50, Esther Perel)

3. Negotiating Independence: The "I" in the "We"

• Issues arise when either partner expresses a desire for independent activities.
  • Partner 1 wishes to spend time with friends or alone, but fears it will trigger conflict.
    • “If you want to stay home a Saturday afternoon, but I want to see some friends…I don’t even feel comfortable bringing it up as a possibility because I feel like it'll lead to an issue.” (19:56, Partner 1)
  • Partner 2 feels anxious and abandoned when Partner 1 goes out, especially at night or in social situations involving alcohol.
    • “If he’s out with a friend and the friend wants to bar hop 20 bars, even though he doesn’t want to, he will do it. So that’s what makes me anxious.” (27:21, Partner 2)
  • Both admit these patterns create tension and inhibit honest communication about their needs.
  • “Both of you experience an anxiety and a tensing up when the other wants to do something on their own… it’s either tension inside one or tension between two.” (20:56, Esther Perel)

4. Parental Projections and Repetition of Old Roles

• Esther crafts a breakthrough by highlighting how both project their anxieties from past relationships with parents onto each other:
  • Partner 1 confronts Partner 2 like he confronted his controlling father.
    • “When you talk to him like this, I hear you talk to your father: ‘You have no right to have this kind of power over me.’” (22:56, Esther Perel)
  • Partner 2 tries to control and stabilize as he did for his impulsive mother.
    • “You know how I said to him that when he talks to you, he’s talking to his dad?... Who am I talking to? Your mom. With her impulsivity and her bad choices.” (27:58-28:04, Esther Perel)
  • Both recognize the insight and acknowledge the roles these projections play.
    • “Yep. That is extremely correct.” (29:52, Partner 2)

5. Anxiety, Trust, and Boundaries

• Their core struggle is a cycle of anxious over-responsibility versus longing for autonomy.
  • Partner 2 admits: “I’m a really anxious person in general…I just can’t blindly trust that people are going to be trustworthy.” (36:31, Partner 2)
  • Partner 1 feels: “You have to also let me figure out what I’m comfortable with, what are my breaking points. We approach things differently, and you have to be able to just step back and trust that I’ll be fine. And if I’m not, trust me, I will yell help.” (37:27, Partner 1)
  • Esther underscores the damage of conditional independence: “If you try to say, I will change when you do, it will sound nice, but it won’t be effective.” (38:16, Esther Perel)
• The partners realize the necessity of each finding and defending their own boundaries, rather than waiting for permission or approval from the other.

6. Friendship, Intimacy, and Threats to the Relationship

• Deep intimacy with friends (though not sexual) is perceived as threatening.
  • Partner 2 struggles with Partner 1’s affectionate and close friendships, feeling "siphoned off."
    • “When you get close to people with your interests, you tend to get close to people physically as well. And I have a hard time with that because to me, there’s a really straight line where friendship and more than friends is divided. And I feel your line is blurrier, and that makes me extremely uncomfortable.” (43:33, Partner 2)
  • Esther reframes: “You keep saying it’s not intimate. And I think that’s exactly what it is. It may not be sexual. But it is intimate.” (44:48, Esther Perel)
• It’s not fear of infidelity, but fear of losing emotional primacy.
  • “He doesn’t think you would leave him. He just thinks he would have less of you because you would have others...that others don’t mean compensation, that others mean a richer life for us all.” (47:31, Esther Perel)

7. Practical Suggestions & Forward Steps

• Esther suggests creating designated nights for autonomy, without curfews or obligations—intentionally practicing healthy separation to build trust and reduce anxiety.
  • “Imagine that you pick a night a week…where you go and do your own thing, whatever it is…those are your nights off, your nights to yourself. So that you start to cultivate a different balance between separate and together.” (48:28, Esther Perel)
  • Partner 2 reacts: “I was perfect with the idea until you brought…if he hangs out with someone Saturday morning, by 2 he’s going to be back.” (48:58, Partner 2)
• Esther emphasizes even in a world of social distancing, the tension between connection and independence is a core relational task.
  • “The balance between connection and closeness and freedom and independence will remain a primary task of relationships.” (49:49, Esther Perel)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On childhood wounds and projection:
  • “Both of them were what we call parentified children…thrown an enormous amount of responsibility way before they were ready.” (13:10, Esther Perel)
  • “You want to have a conversation about respect; he has a conversation about power. So now we need to change the conversation.” (28:13, Esther Perel)
• On the challenge of boundaries:
  • “Usually the first thing I will highlight for you is that your little selves, the children that live inside of you, don't make a distinction between a small little coffee with friends or a big event of the whole weekend…The little child inside of the two of you experiences the whole thing constantly: ‘Are you with me? Am I alone?’” (24:30, Esther Perel)
• On the relationship’s future:
  • “You have been for each other an entire community. Now…when you play together and you’re sexual with a third…it's not the sex that is threatening here, it's the closeness.” (47:09, Esther Perel)
  • “There is sharing that makes you feel that you have more. And there is sharing that makes you feel that you have less.” (47:12, Esther Perel)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:16 – Meeting backstory, coming together in the U.S.
• 04:07-08:07 – Family histories, trauma, and early life responsibilities
• 19:56-22:56 – The everyday challenge of negotiating independence and explaining incidents that trigger anxiety
• 22:56-28:04 – Parental projection: How each partner relates to the other as a figure from their past
• 29:52-32:00 – Recognizing these projections and effects on their present struggles
• 37:27-40:45 – Defining boundaries, negotiating risk-taking, and underlying needs
• 43:05-47:12 – Intimacy with friends, emotional primacy, reframing threats to the relationship
• 48:28-49:49 – Esther's practical suggestion for building independence within togetherness

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Final Thoughts

Esther Perel guides the couple toward a deeper understanding of how their childhood wounds and formative relationships shape their needs, anxieties, and approaches to closeness versus autonomy. By surfacing the origins of their anxieties, Esther empowers them to begin renegotiating the terms of their partnership—enriching their relationship by allowing space for both the "I" and the "we," and encouraging practices that will gradually build mutual trust and comfort with independence.

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For more sessions and resources from Esther Perel, visit estherperel.com.

Transcript

[Narrator/Host]

What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin With Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's and each episode is a one time counseling session for the purposes of maintaining confidentiality. Names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real. This next session briefly describes an instance of domestic violence and may not be appropriate for all listeners. Please take care while listening.

[Esther Perel]

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[Partner 1]

I am pretty outgoing and I can be a little loud sometimes. He's much more reserved than I am.

[Partner 2]

The first time that he got in my radar I was really annoyed because he wouldn't be quiet.

[Esther Perel]

They're two men in their late 20s. They both grew up in the Dominican Republic and came together as adults to the United States.

[Partner 1]

We had a very similar upbringing, which is I think one of the reasons why when we first met we connected so well.

[Esther Perel]

They grew up with very little. They grew up with violence, with neglect.

[Partner 2]

We had nothing, literally nothing. So now everything that we have, we've built it up ourselves and they've built

[Esther Perel]

a beautiful home together, a stable relationship and each of them have quite thriving careers.

[Partner 1]

We have dated more seriously. Very few people, maybe two or three that we've really dated and like spent time with them and those experiences were fun. But ultimately we decided it wasn't working

[Esther Perel]

for the both of us Sexually, they play with others, they play safe and they play well. But they struggle with a different kind of intimacy.

[Partner 1]

From the beginning of a relationship, we've struggled a lot with friendships. I wouldn't say he's a loner, but he's a very shy, reserved person. And so he has a really hard time opening up to friends and having like a bond with people. Whereas for me, I sought out friendships and I sought a lot from my friendships.

[Partner 2]

I wish that somehow someone could help me to be a little bit less controlling. I would like to be a little bit more relaxed.

[Esther Perel]

They held on to each other for dear life and after 10 years, the togetherness has been secured. Can there be room for. For the separateness?

[Partner 1]

We both come from families that are quite dysfunctional and in many ways we are our parents. Parents.

[Esther Perel]

Tell me more. Give me a bit of the background.

[Partner 1]

Where do we start? My dad is in the Doctor and my mom is in Florida. My dad is. Is a very smart man who is very manipulative and very. He's always been in a financial place that's not healthy. But he also refuses to do anything about it. And it just. He just relies on me a lot financially and that puts a strain on our relationship.

[Esther Perel]

Who did you grow up with?

[Partner 1]

My dad.

[Esther Perel]

You grew up with your dad in doctor?

[Partner 1]

In the doctor, yeah. My parents played when I was 12. My mom is a victim of domestic violence and we witnessed it with him. Yeah, she picked up everything that she left and she wanted us to come with her, but my dad twisted things to make it seem like my mom was the villain. So we grew up thinking that she abandoned us and that she didn't want us. And then with time as an adult, things made a lot more sense. And I just have a hard time letting go of the fact that he. He just played the victim so well. That made me believe that he was the victim in that when objectively my mom was in many ways the victim to many things.

[Esther Perel]

You hold him responsible for severing your relationship with your mom for that many years?

[Partner 1]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

She would reach out and he would block 100%.

[Partner 1]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

And then you thought she was not trying to find you.

[Partner 1]

Correct. And so it was after all that it's really difficult for me to just have a good relationship with my dad, even if I tried.

[Esther Perel]

And it's how you just remember this right now. Right. I'm sorry, you just saw something now. It's just a lot, but you just saw something?

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

What did you see?

[Partner 1]

Just like going into my parents bedroom and like my dad Strangling my mom basically and like having to see that and obviously freaking out but not really being able to do anything about was just hard. And so now stay with this one sec. At some point he kind of like let her go and settle down because my brother and I had walked in, we were crying, obviously, we were just saying, stop, what's going on? And. And she like ran to the corner of her room and we were standing at the door. And then he stepped into the bathroom and under the, like in the door of the bathroom, he like grabbed the Bible and he read like a verse from the Bible and he was trying to find a justification for what he was doing. That's when I was like, wow, that's just insanity. Even as a child, I mean I was like 12, I can still remember thinking, this makes no sense. I just have a hard time understanding how I even then stayed. Even though I was able to rationalize that I still stayed with him. So yeah, it's just, It's harder to move faster than that with him.

[Esther Perel]

Just breathe. Two seconds. You're a talker. But still, just let it sit for a second. This is way too much to carry for any 12 year old. Who then has to hold the hand of his little brother. When did you come out to your father?

[Partner 1]

I never officially came out. He would constantly bring it up, as in, you know, he would go on these random rants, he would come into my room and just yell and make all these insults and comments about it, but he wouldn't just come out and say, hey, are you gay? What's going on? And john says.

[Esther Perel]

While he lives with a sense of himself as a happy, upbeat, optimistic person, it doesn't take much to realize that right underneath the surface lives a lifetime of abuse, of manipulations, of put downs and violence. And so as he talks about his background, he squints with his eyes. And it takes one squint just to know that he just chased away an image. And so I go for the image. What did you just see? And then I feel that he's not just seeing things, but he's hearing things. Speak to me in Spanish because that's the language that you heard it in. And even if I didn't speak Spanish, I would still ask him to speak in his mother tongue because that's the language in which the wounds were seared into his skin.

[Partner 1]

It's weird how I don't like him, I don't get along with him, but I still, he's my dad. I want to please him.

[Esther Perel]

How do you make sense of that?

[Partner 1]

I don't know.

[Esther Perel]

I mean, it's a question that I think we often have. Right. How is it that as children, we want the love of parents even when they did not know how to love us properly? Why do we feel such a sense of duty and obligation to people who may have been cruel to us from whom we still want to love? And I'm assuming this is not just a question to you alone. You have a similar

[Partner 2]

experience with my family.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah.

[Partner 2]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

You have your own version, right?

[Partner 2]

I've actually never had a problem of seeking people that like me back. So I have lost aunts, uncles, cousins, friends, because I find that if you truly care about someone, you're not gonna treat them in a manu like I'm

[Esther Perel]

forma manipuladora in a manipulative way.

[Partner 2]

Manipulative? Yeah, it's a hard word. So I've never had that problem. So my relationship with my mom growing up, it was. It wasn't the greatest, especially because she had quit her job and she had this idea that she would never again have a boss. So she would try to get income in really random ways that never really worked. So money was an issue. And I felt a little bit resent because I feel that I wasn't able to live my childhood to its fullest.

[Esther Perel]

What do you mean?

[Partner 2]

I feel that I had this double life because I had my household life, which was with my mom, which was in really precarious conditions. And then I had my school life, which I was lucky enough that my father, which I don't really have a relationship with, he covered all of the school expenses. So I was able to go to a really nice school in the Doctor. I was really focused on my studies because I look back now, and I feel that that was my scapegoat just to study. I'm able to live this life because I put so much effort in the past, and now I'm past that whole. I don't even remember my life in the Doctor anymore after I moved to New York, or try not to remember. But yeah, so that was my growing up.

[Esther Perel]

And then, you know, it's so funny, and it's not funny at all, is that you've just said, I tried not to remember. And then you laugh when people describe really painful situations, but they're doing it with infusion of laughter to make it palpable. I, the listener, start to feel the stuff that you're pushing aside. I'm thinking these two kids, because they were kids, had to navigate a shitload period and it's not about making was nothing. It's not about making it. There is no worse. It is what it is. They learned codes. They learned to move from one neighborhood to another, from one social class to another, from one parent to another. They learned the map. And all these experiences probably are part of your resources today that allow you to do what you do as well as you do it. Because we learn and we develop our resources also in the most painful of our experiences. It may have been good now that you see how studious you were, but at the time it may have been very lonely. Yes, you learned to be responsible for your dad, but you deal with a big gap where you just feel like there was such a hole. And I missed my mom and I missed her period. Both of them were what we call parentified children. Children who became the parents of their own parents. Both of them were thrown an enormous amount of responsibility way before they were ready to assume it. And both of them grabbed on to each other for dear life. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin? Comes from Shopify. Starting a business can feel overwhelming, like you have to figure out every new decision from logistics to branding all on your own. But Shopify is here to simplify that process and help guide you on this new life changing journey. It's the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of the all e commerce in the United States. 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We all have to drink water, and staying hydrated is one of the simplest ways to feel your best. So why does drinking enough water feel like such a chore sometimes? Maybe if it were a bit more exciting, unexpected, flavorful. Here's a tip to help spice things up. Hint Water. It's made with pure water and fruit essences. That's it. With delectable flavors like watermelon, Georgia peach, even lemon zest. Freeze Hint is water that will make you desire water. No sugar, no sweeteners, no calories. It just goes to show sometimes the right hydration partner changes everything. Try hint [e-mail] and in stores nationwide. What you have is that for a while you learn to grow up together and you learn to become families for each other in the full sense of the word. And the people with whom you're going to go from eating junk or eating nothing to eating well to having the first paycheck together, to moving in together, to moving to the us together. That whole thing. And now comes a phase where it is can we still be together and equally strong together but have a little bit more differentiation between us and this issue of how this I is going to emerge in the context of a strong we is I think where you are at developmentally?

[Partner 1]

I think we've sort of recently been trying to work through it. So just for instance, if you want to stay home a Saturday afternoon, but I been working a lot this week and I want to see some friends, I'll say I'm going to grab a coffee with ex friend and he would say, well I don't want to go and it becomes tense. It becomes tense to the sense that I don't even feel comfortable bringing it up as a possibility because I feel like it'll lead to an issue. And so it's things like that that we have been struggling with.

[Esther Perel]

And it's always in that direction.

[Partner 1]

It's always usually me.

[Partner 2]

Not necessarily.

[Partner 1]

What do you mean?

[Partner 2]

So he works a lot, and therefore I do things without him. And most of the time, he expects that if he's out of work, I'm just gonna drop everything that I'm doing and I'm gonna teleport next to his side.

[Esther Perel]

So both of you experience an anxiety and a tensing up when the other one wants to go do something on their own. And both of you end up being worried about saying, I want to go do something on my own, because you're trying to avoid the tension between the two of you. It's either tension inside one or tension between two.

[Partner 2]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

What you've done is you have used a very strong together in order to give a lot of security to two selves. And now these selves would like to emancipate themselves a bit without it triggering all kinds of abandonment issues, which you both have.

[Partner 2]

We mostly do everything together. So I feel that by you not allowing yourself to ask for the things that you want and you need, it's an issue because you don't allow me to experience the process of you being independent. You just come out one day and say, I'm fully independent. No one is going to tell me what I'm going to do, period. And I feel that you do that a lot because that's how you deal with issues. You're either. You're really binary. You're either hot or cold, yes or no. It's never un proceso, Pablo Latino. It's never a slow process to get somewhere.

[Partner 1]

I don't feel that you should have the power to say, no, I don't want you to go out. You should stay with me. Especially when it doesn't really affect you in the sense that we'll still spend the night together, we'll have Sunday together. I'm not stripping away significant time from us because I do know that I work a lot. And so when we have free time, I know we should. We try to be together and spend it together. But at the same time, I want to use that free time to do things that I want to do and be with my friends also and just do things. And so it's a little frustrating.

[Esther Perel]

Can I. Yeah, please. When you talk to him, like this. I hear you talk to your father like, you have no right to have this kind of power over me. He just said, I don't want you to go. You can say, but I'm going anyway, or I understand you don't like it, and then have a conversation about it. But you're in a power thing and in the power thing you will do what the other person wants you to do. Until one day you say, now fuck it. So you keep it in, you keep it in, you keep it in. And anger motivates you. What?

[Partner 1]

That's just very accurate. I understand that he can say I don't want you to go and we could talk about it, but ultimately I end up not going. I mean, when we talk about it and we try to figure it out in a way where we can talk about why not or how it could be more comfortable, the reality is that the result is that I end up not doing what I want to do.

[Esther Perel]

Why?

[Partner 1]

Because if I do it, then it upsets him and then even if he at some point just says, okay, fine, you can go, I'll go. But he'll be calling me every 10 minutes or texting me nonstop and then I'm not really enjoying what I'm trying to do. It's not even like I'm saying I want to do this big event weekend thing without you. It's very small things.

[Esther Perel]

Usually the first thing I will highlight for you is that your little selves, the children that live inside of you, don't make a distinction between a small little coffee with friends or a big event of the whole weekend. The little child inside of the two of you experiences the whole thing constantly. Are you with me? Am I alone? And reacts from that degree of insecurity. So if the adult you are trying to have a rational conversation over, but it's just a two hour coffee, you're talking to the wrong person. Because the one who says I don't want you to go or the one who calls you every 10 minutes is not that adult. And the one that ends up not going because if he's anxious, I'm anxious and I can't have a boundary by which I'm fine even if he is not, or find a way to reassure him or to tell him my phone will be off for the next two hours or I won't answer and begin to learn to regulate and calm ourselves when we are not with each other because we have so much learned to co regulate.

[Partner 2]

I just want to step in for a second and say that it's never that he wants to have a coffee for two hours with someone because you have a coffee during the daytime. Typically this happens if he went to a work event at night and alcohol is involved, and then he suddenly stops answering me or responding or whatever. And then suddenly more plans come out out of that one work thing, and then it becomes a full night out. And that is when I'm triggered.

[Esther Perel]

What's so interesting in this reaction is that he's trying to tell him if it was really coffee, I would actually be okay with this. The reason I'm not okay with this is because it's not coffee, rather than the reason I'm not okay with this is because this triggers an intensity of emotions that roil inside me. That is exactly what that child used to feel. I'm sure that there is more evening involved than just coffee, but that doesn't mean that if it was only coffee, there would be no trigger.

[Partner 2]

It's more about nighttime activities where alcohol and people and.

[Esther Perel]

And the fear is he tends to

[Partner 2]

be a people pleaser. So if he's out with a friend and the friend wants to bar hop 20 bars, even though he doesn't want to, even though he's tired, even though he wants to go home, he will do it. So that's what makes me anxious, because I know that he will not say no.

[Esther Perel]

Can I be really psychological with you?

[Partner 2]

Yes. And I'm not gonna like it.

[Partner 1]

Go ahead.

[Esther Perel]

You what?

[Partner 2]

I'm probably not gonna like it, but go ahead, please.

[Partner 1]

I'll watch. Go ahead.

[Esther Perel]

You know how I said to him that when he talks to you, he's talking to his dad?

[Partner 2]

Yeah. Who am I talking to?

[Esther Perel]

Your mom.

[Partner 2]

Oh, God.

[Esther Perel]

With her impulsivity and her bad choices.

[Partner 2]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And her being influenced by other people. And when you talk to him, you talk to her.

[Partner 2]

Yep. It makes a lot of sense.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. It works in both directions. Right. And so you do just enough for it to trigger in him. This is what used to happen between me and my dad. And he does just enough of the impulsive, people pleasing, non thought out behaviors, et cetera, for you to think. I have to buckle down. I have to be the responsible one. I have to be the controlled one. I have to be the one who measures all the dangers of a situation, because obviously he doesn't. And when we begin to re. Experience with our partners things which we experienced with our first partners, which is our parents or our caregivers, it doesn't just come from nowhere. We pick a person who does just enough to ignite inside of us, the memory, the cellular visceral memory of those interactions so that we then start to respond to them from that place. You want to have a conversation about respect. He has a conversation about power. So now we need to change the conversation. And that starts probably with you talking about what gets evoked for each of you. And then you can talk about friends and you can talk about sex and you can talk about because it's the same dynamic. I think this is the core.

[Partner 1]

Yep, yep.

[Partner 2]

You are extremely correct in that. Yes,

[Esther Perel]

Every couple has to negotiate separateness and togetherness. It's probably one of the core tasks of a relationship. What is I and what is we? But as we all need connection and independence, what sometimes will happen in a relationship is one person is afraid to lose the other and the other person is more afraid to lose themselves. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us. Support for where should we begin? Comes from talkaboutpd.com let's talk about a condition many people haven't heard of and it turns out it's more common than you think. Peyronie's disease, or PD for short. PD can happen when scar tissue builds up under the skin of the penis. This can cause a curve with a bump during an erection and for some men lead to pain during intimacy and may impact mental health. It may also lead to anger and frustration, depression, lowered self esteem and even withdrawal from sexual activity and physical intimacy. Because of this, some men could feel embarrassed or reluctant to talk about pd. The actual cause of PD isn't always known. In some cases it may be linked to a minor injury or repeated injuries during sex or or other physical activity. The good news is PD is treatable. If you notice a curve with a bump, a trusted urology specialist can help diagnose it and walk you through your options, including non surgical treatment. To learn more about Peyronie's disease, visit

[Narrator/Host]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Esther Perel]

Try meal risk free for 90 days and get $75 off at meal.com Esther that's $75 [e-mail] Esther.

[Partner 1]

That's definitely how I experience it and that's certainly why I react. The way I react to is true that you are much more constrained and in control than I am. And it is true that I enjoy having four drinks. If we're out, I do like to have a good time and if that means getting a little bust and dancing, I do it. And I enjoy it a lot. I mean, it doesn't happen often, but when I do it, that's a way that I have fun. And you certainly don't do that and you don't see that as fun. I'm also not a person to drink to a point where I'll black out or I don't know what's going on or I do reckless things.

[Esther Perel]

Before you try to reassure him I am not like your mom, see if you can stay with him about how you understand how it makes sense that he would experience you the way he does.

[Partner 1]

Okay?

[Esther Perel]

Because if he experiences you as more solid, he actually may one day allow himself to let go more. Part of why he is to do this tightness is because he constantly thinks that he has to do it for two, which may not be the case at all.

[Partner 2]

So it's not about the alcohol. It's more about me seeing that you have the power of your own self and not letting other people influence whatever you want to do or whatever is best for you.

[Esther Perel]

And can you add to that? And this is an anxiety or an awareness that I bring with me as well?

[Partner 2]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

This is not just all produced by him.

[Partner 2]

No, it's not all produced by him. I'm a really anxious person in general. I just can't blindly trust that people are going to be trustworthy in the way that you can't tell me, trust me, this is not going to happen. And then every single time that the same situation comes along, it's the same result, it's the same situation. It's like either work or friends or whatever, or health, which is a major issue for him. I need to be there and be like, you need to do this, you need to do that. And if I was able to see that you are a little bit more independent, not independent, but if you just take a little bit more care of your, of you, it would be easier for me to be more chill.

[Partner 1]

I mean, I hear you and I appreciate that you care so much that you feel that you have to do all that, but you. And I'm happy you do it because you're taking care of me, but I also feel that you kind of have to also let me figure out what I'm comfortable with and what are my, you know, my breaking points and what are. Cause in the end, we do have different level of risk taking. And I think overall we also approach things like working friends and all these things very differently, in a sense. And you have to be able to just step back and trust that I'll be fine. And if I'm not, trust me, I will yell, help. I'm not just going to drown.

[Partner 2]

Yes, that is correct. But I feel that.

[Esther Perel]

See, the interesting thing is that each of you says, yes, but I've now waited three times, yes, but, yes, but you want him to become more responsible so that you don't have to feel so responsible for him, but he won't become more responsible because you're always there and he's trying to tell you, let me find my own threshold. And that is way too anxiety producing for you. You want him to trust You. But then you act in a way that doesn't allow him to trust you, because every time he has to step in because you didn't do what you said you were going to do. So if you try to say, I will change when you do, it will sound nice, but it won't be effective.

[Partner 2]

No, it doesn't work. It's a vicious circle.

[Esther Perel]

So the best way you have is to say what you can do. Part of the anxiety about, does he know where to stop? Is slightly related to how he acts. And part of it comes because you have decades of that as your marker. There will be the challenge of accepting that he has a different threshold, which in part is why you picked him in the first place. He's looser. He's more open to the world. He's more what you call, people pleaser. He's more trusting in that way.

[Partner 1]

Yes, that's accurate.

[Esther Perel]

And those are the very things that probably drew you to him, but they also are scary for you. And this is the law of attraction. What is initially attractive because it's different is also the source of conflict later because it is different. You know, you wished when you had your mom that you didn't have to be that responsible all the time and be the one who thinks about her limits so that you could be the child who goes and explores and plays and discovers and makes mistakes, rather than you be the studious kid who never breaks a single rule because she does all of that. And part of your reaction to him is that, you know, you both are the responsible children, but as a result, he became more constrained and you became more like, I do all the right things, I'm entitled to some fun.

[Partner 1]

Yeah, that's basically how I see it.

[Partner 2]

I'm just hoping that we would change sort of at the same rhythm. But I think that's not possible because obviously we've been trying and it doesn't really work.

[Esther Perel]

And, yeah, the way you've been addressing this is not helping.

[Partner 2]

Okay,

[Esther Perel]

and another discussion about it was 1 o', clock, it was 3 o', clock, it was 11:15. No, I did call it. I mean, you can enjoy it. I don't think you do. But in any case, it's not working. And it's not working because there's a deeper conversation that has to do with the way you learn to adapt. What are you really saying

[Partner 1]

when I say, trust me about this, or you

[Esther Perel]

have got to trust me? It's kind of, you know, it's almost

[Partner 1]

basically, you have to trust me because ultimately I should be Able to set the threshold of what's enough or what's and what's okay. And I feel like for many years, you've been the one setting the threshold because it makes you feel uncomfortable if I'm past your threshold and maybe mine's a little further down the road.

[Esther Perel]

Yes, but what part of you accepted his threshold as yours?

[Partner 1]

It almost felt like it was. Like it was a take it, leave me kind of thing. Like, this is just how you are, and it's just kind of like the prize of admission. Like, I have to deal with this if I want to be with you. And. And, you know, ultimately I'd rather be with you and, you know, work around your anxiety and work around what makes you feel comfortable when we're not together. Because I. Because I'd rather be with you than not.

[Partner 2]

At the time, I didn't know that you were putting up with anything. And then suddenly. I don't know when it suddenly exploded and you said that you lost a friend because I made you lose a friend. And I'm like, what are you talking about? That's not what I said. That's not what I meant.

[Partner 1]

It's a pattern that keeps repeating because whenever I get close to a friend and we get very, very close, where we, you know, we check in, maybe not every day, but we chat often, we check in about work stuff, we share some stuff. We have common interests. He has a hard time seeing that it's just a friendship and that it's okay for me to have a friend who I share things with and I have common interests with, and maybe we don't share.

[Partner 2]

It's also that when you get close to people with your interests, you tend to get close to people physically as well. And I have a hard time with that because to me, there's a really straight line where friendship and more than friends is divided. And I feel that your line is a little bit more blurry, and that makes me extremely uncomfortable because I feel that it suddenly becomes this constant person there, that I might not want them to be so constant there, or I feel that you focus too much on the person, and then that person becomes your person, and it just makes me really uncomfortable. Okay.

[Partner 1]

I think just for, like, the sake of clearness, when you say physical, it's not like I don't have sex with my friends and we don't make out.

[Partner 2]

Oh, no, not at all.

[Partner 1]

It's not intimate. It's simply that I am generally. And also just not with friends, just in general. I am physically affectionate with People that I feel comfortable with. I don't go around hugging every single person in my office, but I hug some of my co workers.

[Esther Perel]

You keep saying it's not intimate. And I think that's exactly what it is. It may not be sexual. Okay, it's both, but it is intimate.

[Partner 2]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And what I'm hearing you say is that it's the intense intimacy. It's the kind of infatuation. It's the sense that you're being replaced or pushed aside. That there's somebody else who suddenly becomes his primary focus. Then you feel basically excluded. I held these sessions in a pre Covid world when people could still talk about how they are physical beings who go to work and hug those that they feel close to. Who knows which world we will come back to? At this moment, the question of physical closeness is going to take on new expressions. But the categories won't necessarily change the discussion about how it is the friendship, the intimacy of friendships, the closeness that triggers him because he experiences the energy being siphoned out of their relationship and being directed to those friends.

[Partner 2]

I want to have the intimacy with him and that's it. Or whoever we decide to have intimacy with together. And not a platonic way there. I don't have a problem if it's a friend that he has his focus on. That friend and I. We sort of have to live with each other in a way.

[Esther Perel]

Compete.

[Partner 2]

I wouldn't say compete. It's coexisting. Because after nine years, no one is competition and I'm not competitive. But it's true. I don't feel threatened that my relationship will end. I don't feel threatened that.

[Esther Perel]

You don't.

[Partner 2]

I do not.

[Esther Perel]

You don't.

[Partner 2]

I do not feel threatened, but mindful that multiple relationships can happen at once. And that is what I'm afraid of. It's not that I'm going to lose him. It's that I'm going to have to share him with someone that I don't want to share my life with. I don't want to share my experiences with.

[Esther Perel]

It's a form of loss too, you

[Partner 2]

know, in that way. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

It may not be a definitive loss, but it is a form of loss. There is sharing that makes you feel that you have more. And there is sharing that makes you feel that you have less.

[Partner 1]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Interestingly, he doesn't think you would leave him. He just thinks he would have less of you because you would have others. And then he starts to feel that that means he's not enough and you will need to convey to him that others don't mean compensation, that others mean a richer life for us all, that they can't be one person for everything, which is what you have been till now. You have been for each other an entire community. Now when you play together and you're sexual with a third or you know, you're together, so it's a very different experience. That's why it's not the sex that is threatening here, it's the closeness, it's the intimacy. Reverse, often reversed from straight people.

[Partner 1]

Actually true.

[Esther Perel]

Imagine that you pick a night, a week, first of all, you start with that during the week where you go and do your own thing, whatever it is, you don't invite each other. The point is that those are your nights off, your nights to yourself. So that you start to cultivate a different balance between separate and together. And imagine you don't have a curfew on those. You may actually come home a lot earlier when you don't have a curfew. You'll be surprised.

[Partner 2]

I was perfect with the idea until you brought. I was like, yeah, that would be perfect until you said that. I'm like, yeah, it has to be Saturday morning because I know that if he hangs out with someone Saturday morning by 2 he's going to be back.

[Esther Perel]

But I would like you to have an evening as well. The point is that you actually get to be away without having the other in a constraining force. You need to be able to be away without worry. The worry that he will come back or the worry that he will experience more important things than you elsewhere. And the worry that you have to protect him because he's going to be upset or depressed or angry. The challenge now is how do you make that space so that there is more room for the eye in the midst of the way. Even in a world of social distancing, the balance between connection and closeness and freedom and independence will remain a primary task of relationships. So I'm leaving it to them to see how they're going to do it. Now, if it's not about going to dance with other people and sweat in the club, what form will it take? The importance of this principle does not change from a pre Covid to a post Covid world.

[Narrator/Host]

You just heard a classic session of where should we Begin? With Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast network in partnership with New York Magazine and the cut to apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to estheraparell.com Esterra Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity in the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, esteraparel.com.

[Esther Perel]

Support for Where Should we begin? Comes from talkaboutpd.com let's talk about Peyronie's disease, or PD. It's not widely talked about and some men may feel reluctant to bring it up, but it's more common than you think. PD can happen when scar tissue builds up under the skin of the penis, causing a curve with a bump during an erection, and that, for some men, may lead to pain during intimacy and impact mental health. A trusted urology specialist can help diagnose PD and walk you through your options, including non surgical treatment. Visit talkaboutpd.com When I scraped my car

[Partner 1]

in that parking garage, I was worried that it could be a long process to take care of it, like a landscaper's first day trimming a hedge maze. I have definitely already been here.

[Partner 2]

Now, was it left right or right left?

[Partner 1]

Well, maybe I'll cut a path out

[Partner 2]

and find my way back later.

[Partner 1]

But it wasn't like that. I filed a claim in under two minutes on the Geico app and they handled it from there. It was taken care of almost as

[Partner 2]

quickly as it had.

[Partner 1]

It feels good to get help quick. It feels good to Geico.