My Hero Complex

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel"

Episode Title: My Hero Complex
Date: June 29, 2026

---

Overview of the Episode

In this emotionally rich and introspective session, Esther Perel engages with a first-time therapy caller from Nairobi, Kenya. The central theme is the caller’s self-identified “hero complex”—an urge to rescue women, particularly those in distress, and an uncertainty about how this shapes his relationships and sense of self-worth. Through gentle probing, Esther uncovers deeper motivations related to family dynamics, unaddressed vulnerabilities, and challenges around reciprocity and intimacy. The session is an incisive exploration of caretaking, the fear of needing others, authentic connection, and the permission to both give and receive.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The “Hero Complex” and Its Origins

• Caller’s Trigger Event:
  • The caller describes his ex-girlfriend’s recent crisis call and his intense urge to “rescue” her, invoking his pattern of being there for women in pain. (00:41)
• Relationship Backstory:
  • Early trauma-bonding between the caller and his ex, both sharing personal family struggles, created a unique intimacy. (01:30–03:00)
  • “She’s the only person I’ve ever told that. Not even my closest male friends, not my siblings... Not even my mom.” (Caller, 01:59)
• Perel’s Reflection:
  • “You each opened up to each other. And confided in each other things you hadn’t shared with anyone else?” (Esther, 02:34–02:47)
  • The dynamic shifted from mutual support to the caller focusing solely on making her happy, neglecting his own needs. (04:05)

---

2. Recurrence of the Rescuer Role

• Extension Beyond Romantic Relationships:

  • The caller maintains friendships with women for the purpose of “protecting them”—particularly after they leave difficult relationships. (05:59)
  • Perel gently inquires about the caller’s family patterns, particularly regarding his mother and father. He admits watching his mother, wishing he could make her happy, given the absence of his traveling father. (06:34–07:47)
  • “We have... a professional relationship. We're not close.” (Caller, 07:53)

• Insight into the Need to Rescue:

  • Perel succinctly summarizes the emotional goal: “To rescue them, to capture these broken birds, these broken wings, and to show them... the world is not just doom and gloom.” (08:05)

---

3. The Emotional Cost and Boundaries

• The Problem of One-Way Relationships:

  • The caller expresses frustration that people primarily reach out when they’re in crisis, not to share happiness. (10:36)
  • “I want them to come to me when they're happy as well. I would like to share in the happiness.” (Caller, 11:33)

• Feeling Used and Invisible:

  • Perel highlights the cost: “You’re with me for what I can give to you and not for who I am.” (12:29)

• Dual Nature of the Role:

  • “It turns from feeling privileged... to feeling used. It’s as if they come when I can give them something, but when they don’t need anything, they go have fun with others.” (Esther, 16:16)

---

4. Attempts at Change and Self-Reflection

• Choosing Neediness over Health:

  • The caller shares that, given a choice between a “healthy, happy” prospective relationship and one that involved a woman in distress, he chose the latter: “I actively said no to the healthy one and went to the one I felt attached to.” (21:53)
  • He relished being needed, even if it meant hiding his own struggles: “Her happiness... was my sole mission.” (22:36–23:17)

• Unsustainability:

  • When the partner is no longer in need, the caller wonders if the relationship would persist. (23:17–23:48)
  • Esther contextualizes this with psychological insight: Rescue fantasies may arise from a history of not being able to save a parent or from a need for validation. (23:56)

---

5. Building Reciprocity and Practicing Vulnerability

• Patterns with Friends:

  • The caller recognizes that with male friends, he’s the one others rely on, not vice versa. He values self-sufficiency. (26:45–27:32)
  • Esther encourages a turnaround: “If you want to feel less used, you’re going to have to dare turn this around... practice calling your friends.” (27:42)
  • Five steps: choose trustworthy friends, start small, accept it’ll feel vulnerable, experiment and adjust, permit others to care for you. (30:51)

• Cultural Considerations:

  • Caller acknowledges cultural barriers but says, “I’m a grown up and I can make such decisions about opening up to my friends.” (40:59)

---

6. Permission to Say Yes – and No

• The Verbs of Relationship:

  • Esther explores the core actions in intimacy: “In relationships, I often think that there are a few key verbs. One is to ask... giving... receiving... taking... to refuse.” (32:55)
  • The challenge for the caller: learning to ask, receive, and refuse, not just give.

• Daring to Set Boundaries:

  • On whether to contact his ex: “You can contact her and at the same time say more than one thing. I care deeply. And I also need you to know there's something about when you choose to reach out to me that doesn’t feel really good.” (37:37)

• Practicing Self-Advocacy:

  • Caller rehearses: “I want us to be friends. But I also want to experience a healthy you. I am jealous of whoever you call when you have good news, because it's not me.” (39:04)
  • On putting himself first: “I am putting myself first. I am okay with however it pans out.” (39:50)

• On New Growth:

  • Caller expresses discomfort: “Standing up for myself feels new, feels awkward, and because it's something I have to learn to do.” (42:24)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trauma Bonding:
  “She’s the only person I’ve ever told that. Not even my closest male friends, not my siblings... Not even my mom.”
  — Caller (01:59)

• On the Hero Mission:
  “The entire mission in that relationship was to make her happy. Nothing else.”
  — Caller (04:05)

• On Being Used:
  “They come to me when things are not well. But then when things are fine, that’s not when they stay with me...”
  — Esther Perel (10:53)
  “I feel like I’m being used... the moment they are happy... they will not call me or contact me again.”
  — Caller (12:00)

• On Avoiding Vulnerability:
  “I like being self-sufficient, like being my own person. So maybe need no. Want yes. But need no. I’d say that’s a touch too far.”
  — Caller (26:47)
  “I make sure to be in relationships where other people need me, so I never need to need them.”
  — Esther Perel (27:06)

• On Practicing New Behaviors:
  “If you want to feel less used, you’re going to have to dare turn this around and you can start with your friends where the stakes are lower.”
  — Esther Perel (27:42)

• On Balance:
  “Standing up for yourself and at the same time being kind. It’s both. [Men] are often caught between either being powerful or connected, but they can’t be both at the same time.”
  — Esther Perel (42:53)

• Final Reflection:
  “I am putting myself first. I am okay with however it pans out. Yes.”
  — Caller (39:50)

---

Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:41–04:05: Caller describes trauma-bonded relationship and “hero” dynamic.
• 06:34–08:05: Family background and professional relationship with mother.
• 10:16–12:44: Caller’s wish for more reciprocal, emotionally fulfilling connections.
• 16:16–17:37: Perel explains the duality of being needed vs. feeling used.
• 21:43–23:17: Caller chooses distressed women; admits to hiding own pain.
• 26:45–27:42: Esther identifies inability to need others as core issue.
• 30:51: Perel’s five steps for practicing vulnerability with friends.
• 32:55: The “verbs” of relationship—ask, give, receive, take, refuse.
• 37:37–39:50: Practical advice about expressing needs and setting boundaries with ex.
• 42:24–43:13: Affirming the caller’s growth in standing up for himself.

---

Tone and Style

• Esther Perel’s characteristic warmth, directness, and nuanced psychological insight pervade the conversation.
• The caller is introspective, open, and vulnerable, marking a journey from confusion to small but significant resolve.
• The conversation is laced with gentle humor—e.g., Esther’s “professional relationship” comment—while maintaining deep empathy and respect.

---

Closing Thoughts

This episode is a masterclass in how personal backstory can shape patterns in adult relationships, especially in caring for others at the expense of the self. Esther Perel encourages the caller—and by extension, listeners—first to recognize the roots of the “hero complex,” then to practice vulnerability and set boundaries, embracing the full spectrum of giving, receiving, playfulness, power, and connection.

Listeners walk away with practical steps for reversing unhelpful patterns and a renewed understanding that authentic connection requires not just rescuing others, but also letting them see and support us in all our complexity.

Transcript

[Esther Perel]

Hello?

[Caller from Nairobi]

Hello, Esther.

[Esther Perel]

Hey. Hi. Hi. What were you thinking just now before I came on camera? You were very pensive.

[Caller from Nairobi]

This is my first therapy session ever, so I was kind of wondering what to expect.

[Esther Perel]

So this is an initiation?

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yes, And I'm apparently doing it with the best of the best.

[Esther Perel]

Oh. Where are you calling from?

[Caller from Nairobi]

I'm calling from Nairobi, Kenya.

[Esther Perel]

And what was your question?

[Caller from Nairobi]

It was about maybe understanding the concept of a hero complex. Quite recently, an ex girlfriend of mine called me out of the blue. We hadn't talked in two years. And she calls me and the first words she utters were her life is falling apart. And that she's having suicidal thoughts and that she had just gone through a breakup and she was going through an abortion. And the reason why she says she called me is because in her own words, the pain she was experiencing, the only time she can remember experiencing that kind of pain was when we broke up. And we broke up around two years, three years ago now. And the reason why I ask about the hero complex is because I guess maybe some history between us. We met each other in college, I guess you could call it. We trauma bonded when we were only talking and we hadn't started dating yet. She would tell me about how she had come from a broken childhood, essentially how her parents did not have a good dynamic. Her father was abusive to her mother, her mother was an alcoholic. And I think a month or two months before that I had just found out my father was having an affair. And that was crushing for me because my father was a hero to me. And the reason why I say maybe we trauma pointed, she's the only person I've ever told that. Not even my closest male friends, not my siblings, not anyone close to me, not even my mom. She's the only one I told about the situation going on.

[Esther Perel]

So you each opened up to each other.

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And confided in each other things you hadn't shared with anyone else?

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And then?

[Caller from Nairobi]

And then I guess we developed a connection, a bond. And then as we continued talking, she will tell me about how her ex boyfriends did not treat her right. She would tell me about how her previous ex boyfriends were either maybe abusive or just not good to her. And so I think combining the two stories, the stories she had told me from my childhood and the stories she was telling me about her current life, I want to say I felt sorry for her. There's this emotion I felt. Yes. The best way to explain it is I felt sorry for her. And I guess a part of me wanted to prove to her that the world is not all doom and gloom.

[Esther Perel]

I wanted to rescue her. I guess that's the hero. I wanted to rescue her. I wanted to show her that they are good men. I wanted to show her that it's not one man who mistreats you who should be the representative of the whole species. I wanted to make her feel good and loved and precious.

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yes, actually, that was looking back, the entire mission in that relationship was to make her happy. Nothing else.

[Esther Perel]

We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

[Caller from Nairobi]

When I scraped my car in that parking garage, I was worried that it could be a long process to take care of it. Like a landscaper's first day trimming a hedge maze. I have definitely already been here. Now, was it left right or right left? Well, maybe I'll cut a path out and find my way back later. But it wasn't like that. I filed a claim in under two minutes on the GEICO appointment and they handled it from there. It was taken care of almost as quickly as it happened. It feels good to get help quick. It feels good to geico. Fourth of July savings are happening now at the Home Depot with select appliances starting at $398 plus get free delivery on appliance purchases of $398 or more. No membership required. Upgrade your kitchen with a modern and sleek GE profile refrigerator featuring hands free autofill for the perfect pour every time and make laundry day easier with 2 in 1 washer dryer combo innovation that completes laundry in about 90 minutes. Shop Top brand Applian at the Home depot. Offer Val June 17th July at the US Only Sea Store online for details.

[Esther Perel]

And is that the first woman I've been wanting to do that with in a relationship?

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yes. And at home she was actually also my first relationship.

[Esther Perel]

Right, but you have wanted to make another woman happier.

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yes, I guess I also have friends around me that I keep around me because especially female friends that I know their situations or their ex boyfriends and maybe have an idea of what went wrong. And I kind of want our ex the best of my ability to protect them. Yes. I want them to be happy so I keep them around even after they have broken up with my friends and yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Have you wanted, I mean especially because of what you told about your dad. Have you been invested in making your mom happy?

[Caller from Nairobi]

Not actively. I would say just the normal dynamic between mother and son. I can't pinpoint any instances where I was maybe out to make her happy. So I wouldn't say that.

[Esther Perel]

But inside, yes. You've been watching her for many years and you wish you could.

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yes. My father travels a lot for work, so growing up, it was really just me, my brothers and my mother. So I guess I knew at the time he always had to be at work. And so when he would come home, maybe once a week or once every two weeks, we will be okay with it because we know he's out working, he's out providing for the family, and that was okay with us. So we essentially grew up with my mom, who was there when he could be. But growing up, I thought they had a good relationship. I looked up to him. He was my hero.

[Esther Perel]

Are you close to her?

[Caller from Nairobi]

To who?

[Esther Perel]

To Mom.

[Caller from Nairobi]

No, not really. I would say we have, lack of a better word, a professional relationship. We are not close.

[Esther Perel]

And part of your question to me is, I wish I could understand more this need of mine to save women, to rescue them, to capture these broken birds, these broken wings, and to show them. What did you say? The world is not just doom and gloom. And I don't fully understand why I have that feeling, but I know it's very strong inside of me.

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Is that your question?

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yes. Especially right now, I am not sure what to do. Because I guess, yes, I want to make her happy, especially right now. She's going through something, but I do not want to fall back into the habit of making the entire relationship or the dynamic between us about making her happy. I want to be friends. I really want to be friends with her. But I guess I want to be real friends, not just friends where she calls me when she's in pain. Or I want to experience a true friendship with her now that the relationship fell apart. Yes. And I don't know what to do. I don't know whether to contact her. I don't know. I don't know whether to stay away because some part of me feels like I'm being mused just emotionally. I want the perfect, optimum outcome, which will be, I want us to be real friends where she's healthy, I am healthy, and we can both be healthy. But considering our past, especially how we met, it was a time of pain for her. And I can't help think this is a habit now that she's also in another period of pain for herself, that the only person she could reach out instinctively was me. If she was not going through her pain, maybe not.

[Esther Perel]

Are you left wondering, is there something about me that makes people come when they are in trouble or in crisis and they need me? And somehow I often feel that they reach out when they need me. But that's not the same as when they love me.

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yes. I would like to say it's a gift. People open up to me when we talk for the very first time I've met people and within 15 minutes of meeting them, they were opening about situations in their lives.

[Esther Perel]

So they come to me, though, when they have a crisis. They come to me when things are not well. But then when things are fine, that's not. When they stay with me, that's what becomes challenging to me. I'm more than happy to be available when people go through a rough time. But it seems that people will come to me because I'm a good nurse.

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And I wish that they would come to me because I'm a good playmate and I'm a good boyfriend and I'm a good lover and I'm a good person to have fun with, not just to offload on.

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yes. I'd like for them to come to me when. When they're happy as well. I would like to share in the happiness.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Yes. And because when they don't, then what? What? What? How am I left feeling when they only come or when they predominantly come, when there's a crisis or a problem, then I feel what

[Caller from Nairobi]

used. I feel like I'm being used. And the moment maybe they are happy or not going through the pain they are going through anymore. They will not call me or contact me again.

[Esther Perel]

And then I feel what I feel sad

[Caller from Nairobi]

and used. I think the word is used. I'm happy to be there. I'm happy to be there. But.

[Esther Perel]

But you're with me for what I can give to you and not for who I am. Yes, you're taking advantage of what I can offer you and what I can do for you. But I don't feel that you really are with me for who I am.

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yes. I guess my question is whether if, for example, if she was happy and maybe having a kid, I don't know, maybe, would she have called me? Would she have told me the good news that she's having a child? Would she have. Would I have never heard from her again? I guess is the question I'm asking.

[Esther Perel]

Right. But the question is also, how do I change that? How do I not participate in inviting and encouraging women that come to me to share their crisis or their hardships?

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Because I don't say no.

[Caller from Nairobi]

No.

[Esther Perel]

So with her, I appreciate that you called me, that you feel that you can talk to me and that I am A reliable friend. I find it slightly difficult that you seem to really think of me and call me only when things are bad, when things go sour. I somehow don't appear in your life to share the good stuff. Only when the wind blows in the wrong direction.

[Caller from Nairobi]

I thought about putting it that way. But when she mentioned that she was in a suicidal state, I thought maybe the best course of action is just to calm the waters for now. Make sure she's okay, make sure she's happy, make sure she's laughing, make sure she's not in a state when she leaves the phone call where she goes through with maybe her darker thoughts. So that's something I would love to talk to her about.

[Esther Perel]

What makes it compelling for you? When people come to share their suffering,

[Caller from Nairobi]

I think of it as a gift. I like the fact that people can tell me anything, not just maybe when they're in pain. Even their secrets. And people just talk to me. I guess that's how it put it. People talk to me and I like it. Problem is, when they tell me about how maybe the pain they're going through, a lot of times because of how maybe I embrace them, it quickly devolves into a romantic attachment on their part. And maybe not necessarily the same on my part. So I kind of have to also wiggle out of that situation as well, but oftentimes ends up badly.

[Esther Perel]

So say that again. It evolves into a romantic situation on their part.

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yes. Sometimes when they open up to me and we continue talking, they quickly delve into maybe an attachment because maybe I was there, I embraced them. And because I'm not there with them, it kind of falls apart. Because I guess they're expecting something from me. Maybe they got an idea that because of how embracing I was, that maybe I'd be someone they'd like to be with. But I just. I don't understand it. That's why I wanted to understand the concept of a hero complex. To maybe put these pieces together.

[Esther Perel]

But there's two parts. There is more than two. There is the part of you that says, I feel privileged when women and men, male friends too, open up to me. I feel honored. I feel privileged. But it turns from feeling privileged, it turns off feeling used. It's as if they come when I can give them something, but when they don't need anything, they go have fun with others. So they get romantically attached. When I'm taking care of them, they come to be taken care of. But it's as if they want me in the role of the nurse in the role of the counselor in the role of the the coach. But they don't really see me as the boyfriend, as the person they can develop a relationship with. The moment they are better, they go back to others. Others who are way less nice than me. Why is it that a nice guy doesn't get to experience the full relationship and they go back to all these people I know, my friends included, who don't always treat them that nicely?

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yeah,

[Esther Perel]

We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. Foreign. Comes from Shopify Starting a business can feel overwhelming, like you have to figure out every new decision from logistics to branding all on your own. But Shopify is here to simplify that process and help guide you on this new life changing journey. It's the commerce platform behind making millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all E commerce in the United States. From household names like Heinz and Mattel to brands just making a name for themselves, their design studio is equipped to help you create exactly the online presence you envision with hundreds of ready to use website templates. Plus you can create entire email and social media campaigns with ease with the help of Shopify's marketing tools so you can meet your customers where they're at. It's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. You can sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com Esther you can go to shopify.com Esther that's shopify.com Esther support for where Should We Begin Comes from Aloha. So many of us are looking to boost our protein intake, but not all protein is made equal. For those of you who are mindful about what you put in your body and want thoughtfully sourced organic protein, here's a Aloha Protein Bars this isn't a compromise bar according to Aloha, and it actually tastes really good. Think creamy organic peanut butter dipped in dark chocolate and a soft, rich, satisfying texture. Not the clumpy, stodgy protein bars that feel like a punishment. Each bar contains 14 grams of protein, up to 10 grams of fiber, 5 grams or fewer of sugar and zero sketchy ingredients. Plant based ingredients grown in the ground and built to actually keep you satisfied. Look for Aloha protein bars at your local grocery store or at aloha.com a l o h a.com Aloha taste that grows Support for Where should we begin? Comes from. Hint. Water. Let me ask you, how is your relationship with water? No, I'm not asking whether you enjoy the rain or whether you like to swim or whether you're a Pisces. What I mean is, are you getting your eight glasses a day? Or do you find yourself spotting that refillable water bottle across the room and thinking, you again. Do I have to drink you? We all have to drink water. And staying hydrated is one of the simplest ways to feel your best. So why does drinking enough water feel like such a chore sometimes? Maybe if it were a bit more exciting, unexpected, flavorful. Here's a tip to help spice things up. Hint Water. It's made with pure water and fruit essences. That's it. With delectable flavors like watermelon, Georgia peach, even lemon zest. Freeze Hint is water that will make you desire water. No sugar, no sweeteners, no calories. It just goes to show sometimes the right hydration partner changes everything. Try hint. [e-mail] and in stores nationwide. Tell me what of what I said feels right? Say it in your own words.

[Caller from Nairobi]

It's difficult because like I said, sometimes they do want to be in a relationship with me. But I guess, I guess the word nurse is best. Because I wonder if all I can be is a nurse. I wonder if I can find someone who is happy and maybe you can share in the happiness, not gravitate to someone that I feel like needs me. Because I should say, maybe when we started dating, I mean with my ex girlfriend, there was also another person in my life at the time. She was happy and healthy, as I would put it. And I said no. I actively said no to the healthy one and went to the one I felt attached to when we shared about

[Esther Perel]

our pasts and how do you understand it?

[Caller from Nairobi]

I like being needed. Maybe. I like how I made her happy when we were together. I like how I could see a change. I could really see a change when she was with me and that really gave me a dopamine hit. I would feel so happy. And the reason why I said my mission was to make her happy is because sometimes, even when I was going through something, I would actively not share it with her because I did not want to burden her. So her happiness, especially for me, was my sole mission. And I had so much joy in a fulfilling but it wasn't sustainable.

[Esther Perel]

For whom?

[Caller from Nairobi]

For me. I wanted to move on.

[Esther Perel]

But why it's not sustainable because what I start to resent it. I start to wonder will there ever be space for me? I start to feel like it's a lot of responsibility to be in a caretaking role like that. I start to wonder if I wasn't there helping you, would you still be with me? Any of the above.

[Caller from Nairobi]

If I wasn't helping, would you still be there? Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Sometimes we have a hero complex or a rescue fantasy because we were able to rescue someone in another part of our life, often in our childhood, sometimes because we were not able to rescue, often a parent in our childhood. And sometimes we have a rescue fantasy because it has to do with our sense of self worth. I feel that people come to me when they need me because I can do something for them. But I don't know if they would come to me just because they fancy me. There may be others, but these are two main ones.

[Caller from Nairobi]

Is it possible for me to fall out of the habit of wanting to save people?

[Esther Perel]

Which one of the two resonated most?

[Caller from Nairobi]

I guess the first one that I

[Esther Perel]

didn't get to rescue someone or I

[Caller from Nairobi]

rescued someone and I liked it.

[Esther Perel]

And that's this girl?

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Or there was somebody before this.

[Caller from Nairobi]

Especially this.

[Esther Perel]

So when I see how much I can help someone and how I can lift them and how I can switch their spirit, it gives me a tremendous sense of joy, a tremendous sense of power, a tremendous sense of confidence. And it makes me think that they of course would want to be with me because I'm doing these wonderful things for them. But then when things get better and they move on, then it completely turns on itself. And from feeling joyful in my generosity, I start to feel used and taken advantage of and bereft and extracted. Does that describe it?

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yes. I will find so much joy in making her happy. And I felt like I was doing something. But then when everyone is happy, I guess I wonder where my place is. So I want to be good. I want to share their happiness.

[Esther Perel]

Do you have the same split with your friends?

[Caller from Nairobi]

My friends? I would say we have a good dynamic, especially my male friends. I'll say it's a good relationship.

[Esther Perel]

How would they describe you?

[Caller from Nairobi]

Smart, Good advice. A good friend. A good friend. When they need me, I'm there.

[Esther Perel]

And do you ever need them?

[Caller from Nairobi]

I would say need no. I like being self sufficient, like being my own person. So maybe need no. Want yes. But need no. I'd say that's a touch too far.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, a touch too far. I make sure to be in relationships where other people need me. So. So I never need to need them. Yes, Yes, I will be self sufficient. I will rely on myself. I will not allow myself to depend on anyone. I'm not sure I trust anybody would be as available as I can be for them. And so I turned the whole thing on its head.

[Caller from Nairobi]

My friends call me, I really call them. It's not anything malicious, but I guess that's just how it is.

[Esther Perel]

But if you want to feel less used, you're going to have to dare turn this around and you can start with your friends when the stakes are lower. Meaning you're going to call them. You're going to practice calling your friends. You're going to practice. See, you do the reverse. You just go to them when you're happy and when you're struggling, you keep it to yourself.

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yes, essentially, yeah.

[Esther Perel]

It's the opposite of what you say the women do with you. But you have good friends, right? You have long standing friends.

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. You can tell them you called this strange woman in New York and she put you onto an assignment, you know, Ah. She said if you want to stop feeling used, you have to dare be vulnerable to others.

[Caller from Nairobi]

Okay.

[Esther Perel]

Doesn't mean they have to go because you're suicidal or because you just have the biggest crisis in your life. You just go when the sky is cloudy. I think it would transform your friendships too.

[Caller from Nairobi]

How do I allow myself to trust them?

[Esther Perel]

Ah. A bit of this is a trial and error. A bit of this is you start with the friends that you think are the most trustworthy. A bit of this is you start with something that is not of mega proportions, just something small. And a bit of this is that you don't expect not to feel any vulnerability or any fear because you will. And because you have zero practice, you've not done it. Your father is gone much of the time and you see him as a hero because you think he takes care of everything himself with your mom. You have a professional relationship, as you call, which is an amazing word of choice of words, and then you crave a certain kind of intimacy.

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

But your friends don't know that. Your male friends in particular don't know that. Do you have female friends too, or mostly male friends?

[Caller from Nairobi]

Mostly male friends.

[Esther Perel]

And that's a reflection on you or on your culture?

[Caller from Nairobi]

Just me. I have some filming friends, some very close filming friends. But I'd say my best friends, female

[Esther Perel]

friends from childhood from early on or from college?

[Caller from Nairobi]

From college. Some of my friends from childhood moved away. I don't get to see them that much. But from college, yes, my friends are here. Some have moved away, some have moved to the uk, abroad, elsewhere. But yeah, I'm still. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So how does one start to let other people be there for you? Here are five things, right? You pick wise, you pick the people who you think you really are more trustworthy and you can. You know they're not going to use it. You pick something that isn't the most big and significant, but you use something that you know you don't typically share. You practice, which means you don't expect it to feel good and fantastic on the first time. You do a trial and error and you tweak it every time. You let them take care of you and you let yourself receive. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Behind every trendy health hack is the same motivation improving your energy levels. Turns out the solution might be easier than you think. Let's talk blood sugar, because this is the piece most people are missing. When your blood sugar spikes and crashes, everything suffers. Your energy, your mood, your cravings. That 3pm slump you can't shake? That's blood sugar dropping. Verasity's Metabolism Ignite supplement can help your body process glucose more efficiently, which improves insulin sensitivity and keeps those spikes from happening in the first place. The result? Stable, steady energy throughout the day. No crashes, no cravings. No walls. So what's in Verasity's metabolism? Ignite lemon, verbena and hibiscus extracts, green coffee, bean extract and magnesium. This unique blend aids in boosting your metabolism and helps with appetite control. So before metabolism ignites cells out again, control your cravings and boost your energy the natural way. Head to VeracityHealth Co and use code ESTAIRE for up to 65% off your order. Once again, that's V E R A C I T Y Health Co for up to 65% off. And make sure you use the promo Code Estaire.

[Esther Perel]

Support for Where Should We Begin Comes from Wayfair. Now that it's summer, attention must be paid to your outdoor space. It spent all winter neglected and pitiful, but now's the time for your backyard or patio to be just as cozy and inviting as your indoor space. For that, there is Wayfair. I cherish my outdoor space, but something I need is more lighting. I checked Wayfair, always a trusted source, and found just what I needed. The Solar pathway lights. Wayfair can also help with installation and assembly. You need it. No need to schlep a heavy couch or navigate intimidating assembly instructions all on your own. With over 20 million 5 star reviews, you can hear from real customers before you buy. Patio season is here and these deals won't last. You can head to Wayfair.com right now to get your outdoor space ready for way less. That's W A Y F A I R.com Wayfair Every style, every home support for where should we begin comes from Quo. Have you ever realized how many customers slip through the cracks? Missed calls, follow ups that never happen. It adds up fast. That's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled Q U O the business communication system built so you never miss a course with quo. Calls, texts, voicemails, transcripts and contact details are all in one clean view so your team always has the full picture and can show up for every customer conversation, ensuring a seamless and more personalized experience. Quo isn't just a phone system, it's a smart system. Kuo's AI automatically logs, calls, generates summaries and and highlights next steps so nothing gets lost. Money is on the line. Always say hello with quo. Try quo for free plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to quo.com begin that's quo.com begin. In relationships, I often think that there are a few key verbs. One is to ask. How do you feel about asking? Do you know to ask? Do you trust that when you ask, people will respond? Do you know what to ask? Or are you so busy knowing what other people feel and need that you don't really know what you want? Asking giving. How do you feel about giving? Do you enjoy giving? Yeah, some people enjoy giving. Some people give sometimes in order not to owe, in order to acquit themselves of the of a debt, in order not to feel guilty about taking. There's a lot of different feelings around the experience of giving. And then there is receiving, which is often the most vulnerable of them all. Can you let others give to you? Can you experience the vulnerability of receiving? The fear of losing people, the surrender that goes into receiving, the trust that is required to receive? And then there is taking. When you feel used, you feel other people are taking from you. You don't feel they're giving to you and you don't even feel giving to them anymore. Like when you enjoy seeing them uplifted and you feel the joy of making them happy. Once you start to feel used, that is gone. And then there is the verb to refuse to say no. Just part of what you're asking vis a vis this girl. What's my yes and what's my no? You can't really say yes if you can't really say no. And then there is imagining and sharing and wanting. There's a few other verbs, but those are the main ones.

[Caller from Nairobi]

Is it. Is it as easy as asking you to give me directions? I guess for lack of a better word. Should I contact her or not?

[Esther Perel]

Should you contact her or not? You can contact her and at the same time say more than one thing. I care deeply. And I also need you to know there's something about when you choose to reach out to me that doesn't feel really good.

[Caller from Nairobi]

I sometimes. And I also did this a lot when we were dating, I would spare the truth in order not to hurt her feelings. So even now, while I know what I should say to her, I do not want to do it because I might hurt her.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

Right.

[Esther Perel]

But you know what that means? It means that I don't truly believe that my feelings actually matter. I feel like I need to cater, I need to placate, I need to accommodate, I need to please to assure that people will be with me. And I certainly don't need to impose with any of my own issues. But underneath lies the belief that my feelings, needs, wishes, fears, don't really have a place to go. So if you did something very different with this situation, what would it be? What's the thing you would actually want to do but you're afraid to do?

[Caller from Nairobi]

I will call her and tell her I want to be friends. I want us to be friends. But I also want to experience a healthy you. I want to experience happy you. You. When everything is going okay. When everything is going right. When you are happy. I am jealous of whoever you call when you have good news, because it's not me. Yes. And I would call her and tell her, I hope in future we can be friends, but in a healthy dynamic.

[Esther Perel]

Do you think she'll be open to that? Or do you think she'll say thank you and you won't hear from her again?

[Caller from Nairobi]

I don't think I would hear from her again.

[Esther Perel]

And that's okay with you?

[Caller from Nairobi]

At this point? Yes. I am okay with however it pans out. I am putting myself first. I am okay with however it pans out. Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Is that a first?

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yeah. Because it actually feels awkward doing it.

[Esther Perel]

Right. Okay. So you've got your first step.

[Caller from Nairobi]

Should I call her first or should I wait until she reaches out?

[Esther Perel]

Doesn't matter. She called you, right?

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Okay, so you call her back. It doesn't matter. That's the kind of questions that keep people ruminating but not doing anything. You called her back. You said it was very nice to hear from you. I'm so sorry. Da, da da da da. And I wanted to tell you something that's been on my mind.

[Caller from Nairobi]

I have a habit of waiting for people to call Me. So I guess that might also be another hurdle. I guess.

[Esther Perel]

But I also think that you want to practice it with some of your close friends. It's safer too.

[Caller from Nairobi]

Okay. I almost want to say culturally it's not quite common, but I'm a grown up and I can make such decisions about opening up to my friends.

[Esther Perel]

But your friends come to you.

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yes, they do.

[Esther Perel]

So then there's culturally nothing. We're not doing culturally. Anything transgressive here. It's not like you're going for therapy to your friends. You're just telling them when it's available. You don't have to manufacture something, but you practice asking others, relying on others, needing others. Part of why you taught yourself not to need anything is because your dad was gone all the time.

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yes, I have a negative reaction to the word need, but I think rely. I think rely on others.

[Esther Perel]

You prefer rely. Okay. All right. I'll happily change the word for you. Need brings up too much abandonment and unavailability, whereas rely feels a little gentler. We can switch. You're welcome.

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yes. Thank you.

[Esther Perel]

How is this conversation?

[Caller from Nairobi]

I like it. It's helping me put some things into perspective. It's helping reinforce some of the decisions I've made that I was maybe second guessing or doubting. So, yeah, like I said, standing up for myself feels new, feels awkward, and because it's something I have to learn to do.

[Esther Perel]

Standing up for yourself and at the same time being kind. It's both. And you know, sometimes my friend Terry Real often says men are often caught between either being powerful or connected, but they can't be both at the same time.

[Caller from Nairobi]

Which one would you choose?

[Esther Perel]

Both, I think. To the contrary. My invitation is for you to experience both at the same time. You can be kind and connected and you can be powerful and make your point. Will you let me know what happened?

[Caller from Nairobi]

Yes, I will. Thank you.

[Esther Perel]

You're welcome.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

This was an Esther calling a one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Estaire that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Astaire might just call you. Send your question to producerteraparell.com where should we begin with? Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media podcast network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsome, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julian Att. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of where should we Begin? Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul. When I got a new car, I thought my insurance premium would increase and empty my bank account. Like if fatween won the lottery. I've invested most of my winnings in chicken tenders because they're bomb. But bro, I bought a house and it's sick, bro. I'm thinking the floor is gonna be all trampoline, bro. With the helipad on the roof, the contractor said it's structurally unsound. They're just being babies. But switching to Geico saved me hundreds. So my bank account is safe.

[Caller from Nairobi]

It feels good to save some hard earned cash. It feels good to Geico. You can't reason with the sun. Trust us, we've tried. This summer, it's time to put that angry ball of fire on mute. Columbia's Omnishade technology is engineered to protect you from the sun's harsh rays that can burn and damage your skin. The sun is relentless, but so is our gear. Level up your [e-mail] to spend more time outside and less time slathering on aloe lotion. You're welcome, Columbia. Engineered for whatever.