You Slept With My Best Friend

Summary

Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel

Episode: "You Slept With My Best Friend" | July 13, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features a married couple grappling with the aftermath of a decade-old affair. The wife discovered about a year ago that her husband had a two-year affair with her best friend and godmother to their child, an event that has destabilized her sense of self, trust, and family. Esther Perel guides them through raw conversations about betrayal, remorse, intimacy, and the ongoing challenge of rebuilding trust and authentic connection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Revelation and Immediate Fallout

• Wife’s Discovery
  • The affair occurred about 9-10 years ago, lasting two years; the wife learned of it only recently.
  • "It was just a knife to the gut because everything I thought I knew is just not what I thought it was." (Wife, 02:17)
• Present Tense Pain
  • For the husband, the affair is distant, “the past”; for the wife, it’s a fresh wound.
  • "What is the past for him is the imminent present for her." (Esther, 02:43)

Remorse and Relationship Dynamics

• Guilt and Self-Sacrifice
  • The husband is caught in deep remorse, always prioritizing his wife’s needs.
  • "Whatever she needs... But whatever she needs is one line. What do you need?" (Esther, 04:57)
  • He struggles with feeling undeserving to ask for anything himself.
• Loss of Joy and Identity
  • The wife feels "lost," disconnected from joy, and stuck in "purgatory." (04:11)
• Old Patterns & Childhood Wounds
  • Husband grew up emotionally unsupported—mother died young, father left him at 18.
  • "I was on my own... That's something I try to do better with our kids." (Husband, 08:32)

Seeking Meaning, Not Just Facts

• Detective vs. Investigative Questions
  • Esther encourages shifting from “Where? When? With whom?” (fact-based) to “Why? What did the affair mean? Who were you then?” (meaning-based).
  • "Detective questions... keep us awake at night. Meaning questions bypass the facts and go for what happened to you there?" (Esther, 14:40–15:52)
• Wife’s Struggle with Understanding
  • “I’ve had a hard time getting past this because I just don’t understand... The not understanding the why has made it impossible for me to fully move on.” (Wife, 13:45–14:40)

The Needs Beneath the Affair

• Affair as an Expression of Unspoken Needs
  • Husband admits he finds it hard to ask for affection or support—a pattern from childhood.
  • The affair partner “just did that”—no need to ask, contrasting the marital dynamic.
  • "It felt easy, like there wasn't work involved." (Husband, 20:18)
  • Esther interprets: "I could have my needs met and never feel needy... I rediscovered them without facing the consequences." (Esther, 20:25)
• Affair’s Allure and Regret
  • "This isn’t me, that’s not what I would ever do. And this is the most me I’ve ever been." (Esther, 21:58)

Intimacy, Parenting, and Neglect of the Couple

• Parenthood as a Barrier to Couplehood
  • Both partners acknowledge always putting their children and others first, neglecting their own relationship.
  • "We do a lot for a lot of people... The day ends and you and I don't even have enough time to enjoy ourselves." (Husband, 31:01)
  • Esther: "For everything that doesn’t involve your children, you basically say, I don’t want them to miss anything... But the two of you are underfed." (Esther, 35:10–35:29)
• The Energy of Affairs vs. Marital Routine
  • "People are never too busy, nor too tired, nor too stressed [for an affair]... If people could put some of that very energy into their marriages, marriages would be doing really well." (Esther, 36:11)
  • "We're not talking sex yet. We're just talking physicality, playfulness, surprise... You can be not dead. But that’s not the same as alive." (Esther, 38:28)

Repair and Moving Forward

• Acknowledging Ongoing Pain
  • Wife: "Part of my problem... I still have a lot of anger." (Wife, 40:16)
  • She feels isolated in her resentment and confusion: "I'm just on a boat in the middle of the ocean by myself..." (Wife, 41:20)
• The Lingering Secret
  • The wife wonders if the last 10 years of “wonderful” marriage were sincere or driven by his secret’s guilt.
  • "Was some of that driven by guilt and he was trying to make up for... were those 10 years true?" (Wife, 53:09)
  • Husband: "Keeping something like that is miserable... It’s all the time. I still have that every single day. That never leaves." (Husband, 53:39–54:29)
• Mutual Empathy & Communication
  • "Something as simple as just knowing he thinks about it and I'm not alone... means a lot." (Wife, 56:00)
  • Esther: "Every time you think that by doing less, asking less, saying less is better, [remember]: it’s worse." (Esther, 56:21)
• Deserving and Self-Forgiveness
  • Esther gently challenges his sense of not deserving love or family due to the affair.
  • She reframes possible future conversations with their children as lessons of “rupture and repair,” not permanent failure.
    • "Life is filled with broken pieces that we put back together... How the two of you took this wound, and it became a scar." (Esther, 57:43–58:58)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On the pain of delayed discovery:

  • "Everything I thought I knew is just not what I thought it was."
    —Wife, 02:17

• On the difference between detective and meaning questions:

  • “Detective questions are questions that mine the facts... Meaning questions bypass the facts and go for what happened to you there?”
    —Esther, 14:40–15:52

• On affairs as a parallel story:

  • "Affairs are often out of character... Parallel stories that suddenly enable people to do stuff they don’t know how to do in their life, so they do it in the shadow of their life."
    —Esther, 18:37

• On unmet needs and the allure of the affair:

  • “I think it was more of I didn’t have to ask because she would just do that.”
    —Husband, 20:02

• On regret and the story of the marriage:

  • “What you did doesn’t define your whole life. It’s just a part of our story that I never wanted either.”
    —Wife, 55:05

• On the need for mutual care and presence:

  • “For every time you think, ‘I need to figure out what happened back then,’ it’s: ‘I need to figure out what’s not happening now.’”
    —Esther, 36:56

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Timestamps for Significant Segments

• 02:17: Wife tells the story of discovery; the gut-wrenching impact.
• 04:57–06:59: Esther confronts the husband’s guilt-driven self-sacrifice.
• 13:45–14:40: Wife’s unresolved quest for the “why” of the affair.
• 14:40–15:52: Perel on the difference between fact-finding and meaning-finding.
• 18:29–20:25: Discussion about needs, asking for affection, and the underlying meaning of the affair.
• 30:41–31:59: The couple explores the impact of prioritizing family over their relationship.
• 36:11–36:54: Esther on the transformative energy of affairs (and how it could enhance marriages).
• 40:16–41:41: The wife’s admission of anger and isolation.
• 53:09–54:29: The couple reflects on whether the last decade was “real.”
• 56:00–56:21: Wife finds relief in learning of her husband’s ongoing remorse.
• 57:43–58:58: Esther reframes the wound as a teachable “scar” for future family conversations.

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Concluding Insights

Esther Perel’s signature blend of empathy and challenge helps the couple see not just what went wrong, but why, and how old wounds and current patterns both shaped their crisis. She prompts both to move from blaming (of self or each other) to understanding, and from passive regret to active repair—advocating for mutual presence, deliberate intimacy, and honest communication.

For listeners navigating betrayal or struggling with the erosion of couplehood in parenthood, this episode offers not only validation of pain but a path toward healing and genuine reconnection.

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End of summary.

Transcript

[Narrator/Host (Esther Perel)]

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin? Is a one time counseling session for the purposes of maintaining confidentiality. Names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real.

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[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

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[Wife]

My husband of over 15 years. About a year ago I found out that 9, 10 years ago he had a 2 year long affair with my best friend. I mean she's the godmother to my daughter. They lived one street over. They were both in our wedding. It was just a nice to the gut because everything I thought I knew is just not what I thought it was.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Most couples who come in the aftermath of an affair come in the immediate aftermath. In this case, the affair took place 10 years ago. But she has just found out. So what is the past for him is the imminent present for her? She's been living with this now in this turmoil for about a year trying to figure out what was the marriage living with a secret in their midst. And she wants to know is this the man I thought he was? Is this the marriage that I thought we had Did I make a fundamental mistake? Why did this happen?

[Husband]

I think about it every day. It sucks. You know, I struggle with it every day. I don't really talk to her about it because I know she needs more taken care of than I do, and I don't want to burden her with everything that's gone on. Our marriage has definitely gotten stronger, but I really want to help her. I really want to figure out how to help her move forward.

[Wife]

There's been 10 years in between where he's been an amazing husband, an amazing father. We've had another child since then. He's a wonderful provider. But I'm pretty lost. I feel like I'm, like, stuck in this purgatory. I'm hurting constantly. I don't have joy with my kids anymore. I've lost the person that I am, and I want so badly to get back to that person, and I just don't know how.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

And both of them are here to try to make sense of things and to find the permission to invest in their relationship and not just to be rooted in remorse. Let's listen.

[Wife]

I found your book State of Affairs. It just gave me, like, a different perspective. I was on your website one night,

[Husband]

and it was like, submit your story

[Wife]

and never thought anything would come out of it.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

And do you know where she brought you, or do you just kind of follow along?

[Husband]

No, I know where she brought me.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

You know where you are.

[Husband]

I know exactly where I am. I created this, and I have to deal with it, and I support her and these things that she wants to do all day long.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

I heard your line. Your line is, whatever she needs. But whatever she needs is one line. What do you need? Where are you coming from? And how do you enter? This is another that needs to exist, too.

[Husband]

Yeah, I mean, I'm here for her. I'm here for us to figure out what we can do to make things better. Things that, you know, that she might want or that I might want. What we both want from each other. The day, like, she came up behind me and gave me a hug felt so good and amazing, and it was something that I was like, wow, I've never done that. And I love that it felt so good. So I think there's things like that that I want to figure out.

Like, what makes you happy.

Yeah. What makes you happy. And things that I can do better that would make you happier.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Just when you were talking now and because of what you said, I created the mess. I don't even know what we're talking about yet, but I Created the mess. I'm responsible. Anything she needs. Sometimes when people are in that position, they have a sense that they have used up their quota for the rest of their relationship. I feel so guilty. I'm so responsible for the mess we're in that I have no right to ask for anything anymore. So if she hugs me and it feels so nice, I can't just say I loved it. I would like more of it. I have to go and say I'm here to make her happy so that if she's happy, she can make some things that make me feel good. It all kind of becomes a big detour laid out for me.

[Husband]

I definitely don't do a lot for myself. It's always like, what can I do to make her happy? I. I don't think I've said no to anything that she's requested since.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

And all of this is recent or. That has been the structure of your relationship always?

[Wife]

I think generally it's been the structure. You're always very, like, easygoing and just. Yep. I think.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

But that's not easygoing. That is being powered by guilt and remorse.

[Husband]

And I think that's part of my past, too. And that's why I think I've just always done stuff myself and not asked for help. I'm not one to ask. I always try to just do things myself.

You keep a lot inside.

Yeah, that too.

[Wife]

So if you wanted something, you're not good at asking.

[Husband]

No, not at all.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Because,

[Husband]

um, when I was younger, I never, like, had the parent to be able to tell and feel comfortable about it. So, I mean, I was on my own. I was 18,

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

and I was on

[Husband]

my own because my father moved. My mother passed away at a very young age. Well, not very young. She was young. She was.

She was.

She was 50. So my mother died, but before that, my father decided to go to Virginia. So I had to figure out what to do. And just kind of basically he gave

[Wife]

him an ultimatum and said, you can come with me.

[Husband]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Don't help me. No, no, sir. If he keeps everything in and he's in the middle of telling, we're going to take that opportunity.

[Wife]

Okay. Sorry. I do absolutely nothing to apologize for.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

I'm just meeting you.

[Husband]

Yeah. So it got to a point where just was on my own, doing my own stuff. And that's something that I think I've tried to do with our kids. Way better than what I had, is to pass on something better in structure and, you know, pay it forward in a better way than what we had or I Had.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

So your dad decides to move and he says, come with me or do whatever you want or.

[Husband]

Yeah, pretty much that's what it was, is you can come down here or you can stay here and figure out what you want to do. So I stayed and worked. I worked a ton.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

And then what happened? Why are we here?

[Husband]

Why are we here? So we're here because I made a mistake 11 years ago.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

And you are together how many?

[Husband]

We are together 23 years. Yeah, about four.

We're married 16 years.

And I had an affair with her friend. Well, it was our friend. Mutual friends. Her husband was my friend. They lived in, like, the next street over, and I had an affair with her for over a year.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

And that came out now?

[Husband]

Yeah, that came out a little bit of the. A year and a half ago.

[Wife]

Almost a little over a year, yeah. Basically, one of his friends knew about this all along, never said anything to anybody, and then decided to tell his best friend who was the husband of her last year. And that's how it all came out. I just thought it was absurd. Like, there's no way that that's true. And I kind of sat with it for about five months, and then I finally asked him, and he told me a little, and then I found out more, and then he told me a little bit more. But it was so long ago that he is a little fuzzy in his memory about specifics. Like, when did it start? When did it end? He's had a hard time answering my questions, so I'm in my mind rewriting all the memories that I had of those. I think it was probably closer to two years because she was my best friend and her husband was his best friend. And like he said, they lived one street over. We were together as like a group almost every single day. They had a daughter. We just had a daughter. And we just were like one big happy family that. That's all I knew us to be. And then, you know, fast forward nine years. She divorced her husband, but we were still friends with the husband. He was still best friends with him up until this all came out last year.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

And you did not stay friends with her?

[Wife]

No, I ended the friendship around that same time that he ended his relationship with her. She was changing and becoming a person that I didn't agree with. She was doing things with other men at that time, and I didn't agree with it, and I didn't want that kind of energy around. Our daughter. Basically just stopped talking. And that was about eight years ago.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

I'm listening to this sentence again. Now. And I remember listening to it in the session, too. I didn't like this energy, and I didn't like it for my daughter, who is a newborn at the time or a one year old. And it's an interesting comment where the reaction is from one woman to another, but the justification invokes the mother. There's something about saying it's the energy that my child would absorb feels more acceptable than to speak about what this is triggering in me. To be next to this woman who is talking to me about her attractions or dalliances with other men. And I know a sense somewhere that this could potentially be a threat to me, that this is not what I bring, that this is not how I enter my relationship. To the point that my husband has just, in the first two minutes of the session, talked about how amazing it was that I came to hug him from behind because it was so unusual. And so she describes a tension between two behaviors of women, but she justifies it by putting it in the context of her responsibility as a mother. Who knows about it.

[Wife]

For a good few months, nobody knew. And then I've told my best friend, and then I told another friend.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

And what do they know?

[Wife]

They know everything that I know.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

So they know facts. Yeah. But they don't know meaning.

[Wife]

Right. I don't really know the meaning.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Right. And that's part of what you've been wanting to know?

[Wife]

Yeah. I've had a hard time getting past this because I just don't understand, because I can see her doing this. It doesn't surprise me. But with him, I mean, you can ask anybody who knows him and they would never think in a million years it's something he would do. That's just so out of character for him. So the not understanding the why has just made it impossible for me to fully move on and stop thinking about it every day and stop looking back at pictures of us and rewriting the memories and questioning, like, when were you with her? Did it happen in our house? It's hard to get past all of those thoughts because I just. I'm still having a hard time understanding why and how

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

sometimes when you ask fact questions, where and when, how, how many. It makes it worse to go to sleep, but it doesn't really help you make sense of it.

[Husband]

Yeah.

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At this moment, I know what we

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

are here to do. What is important for her in order to be able to have the images subside, is for her to have clarification and understanding about how could this man do such a thing? And that means that we need to shift to a different set of questions. I've always thought that it was useful to distinguish between investigative questions and detective questions. Detective questions are questions that mind the facts. Where were you? Did you do it at home? Did you bring her here? Did you take her to that restaurant? Did our friends meet her? Did she do it better? All of these things that really just keep us awake at night, meaning questions bypass the facts and go for what

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

happened to you there?

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Who were you in that relationship? What did that relationship invite in you? That does not get expressed with me. Did you think about us? Did you think about the children? How was it when you would come home? How did you experience the duplicity? Did you want me to find out? I have about 150 of those questions that are about the meaning. What would make someone risk losing everything that they have built? There must be something that is powerful enough, especially for those for whom this is really not in character. And he doesn't understand that either about himself. So in effect, I meet them and they share the same question. You were saying something before when you said, I've always decided things on my own. So this is even before your mom. This is before your dad leaves. You have an experience of yourself as in my family, A I don't get to have needs, and if I do, I'm only myself to respond to them. Did I get that right? Tell me more.

[Husband]

Growing up, it was all like not being able to talk to your parents and bring up stuff and talk to them and feel comfortable with them. I think really just kind of made me feel more closed in and just keep everything to myself and just manage it myself and try to figure out how to deal with it and do it. And even to this day it's hard for me to ask for help.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

So you just said something before about how much you were moved when she came and hugged you from behind and spontaneously showed affection. Would you ever ask for that

[Husband]

before? No. No.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Would you ask for it now or just say, I really appreciate it when you.

[Husband]

I don't think I've asked for it since. I think when she did it, I just told her. I was like, that's the first time you've ever done that. And it felt so good.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

That's a lot.

[Husband]

And I just said, thank you.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Do you think that your affair was a way to ask for things that you don't usually ask?

[Husband]

Possibly, yeah, I think so. But I don't think it's her fault at all. I think it's my fault because I didn't Ask for it.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

We're gonna set a few ground rules. We're not gonna go into whose fault it is because it's not gonna help us to put blame. And we're not going to justify it, but we are going to try to make sense of it because she needs it and you need it too. And it has probably not much to do with her. And hence it actually is really interesting to find out what happened there because affairs are often out of character. Yes, they are parallel stories that suddenly enable people to do stuff they don't know how to do in their life and so they do it in the shadow of their life. Yeah, I know it has nothing to do with her except that it has to do with the fact that maybe she's not the person who spontaneously comes and hugs you and you crave it. So that's one thing you know you want more of.

[Husband]

And I should be asking for it.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Yes, not should.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

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[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

You don't have to, but you can. So what I asked you was, did you have a sense that there was something that freed up when you were in the affair where you could ask for things that you don't usually ask?

[Husband]

I think it was more of I didn't have to ask because she. She would just do that.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

You know, for people who don't ask to be given to and bypass the asking is huge.

[Husband]

Yeah, I guess you could say it felt easy, like there wasn't work involved. It was just simple.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

When he says it was easy, I translate it as I could have my needs met and never have to feel needy. Since I had learned to be self sufficient. Since I lost mom and I lost dad and I knew I only had myself, I curbed my needs in this relationship. In the shadow of my life, I rediscovered them without having to face the consequences of the neediness and the longing that goes with it. Did you ever think that part of why you did it was because the siren call was irresistible?

[Husband]

Yeah, I guess you could say that.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

He woke up the most forbidden needs, wishes, longings that this boy who then became man had yearned for and never felt. And it was so powerful that it made him do stuff that in his life, in his rational mind, he would never do. And so he lives with this contradiction between this deep need for connection and closeness and touch and the fact that

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

it came with a betrayal.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

And so you're stuck with this isn't me, that's not what I would ever do. And this is the most me I've ever been. Sometimes when we layer the psychology of the person who has the affair. It may seem like they're getting a free pass, they're not being held accountable. It's as if to humanize them, to make them more complex is to be

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

protective of the wrong person.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

I would like to suggest differently. When she listens to him from that place, it helps her 1 to really not personalize it as much 2 it gives her something to connect with with the person, to actually activate empathy for this person, which is not just as a way of letting them get away with something, but it is actually as a way of allowing them to connect with them again. It is at the core of what will provide a new type of intimacy between them, and it is often a misunderstood step. We have to take a brief break, so stay with us and let's see where this goes.

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[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

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[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Did any of your parents have affairs?

[Husband]

My mother and father divorced, yes.

Which one had the affair?

I don't know. I don't know anything about it.

Your mom?

I actually really don't. All I know is they used to fight a lot. I don't know the exact reason of why they split. I thought that they just got divorced because they didn't like each other.

You do know. Cause we've talked about it and it was your mom. She had an affair.

I didn't know she had an affair. We never talked about that. Sorry, I didn't know that. We never spoke about that.

I do remember having a conversation with you. I remember you saying, I'm just like my mom.

No, I'm sorry, but I don't remember that. I'm sorry that I don't.

No, I'm sorry that you don't. And I just said that to you. I swear. You knew. I feel awful.

You shouldn't feel awful. It's not your fault.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

A lot of I don't know often makes me wonder the degree to which the exposure was traumatic. Some things were too much to take in for how young the person was or for the place that they were in within the family. So I don't know is a way that people sometimes use to protect. Not because they don't want to be honest, but because when people don't remember their childhoods, it often speaks trauma.

[Husband]

Your mom was a good person and that doesn't define who she was. Just like it doesn't define who you

[Narrator/Host (Esther Perel)]

are,

[Husband]

then I need you to understand that you're a good person.

I think I'm probably the best person I've ever been in a long time.

[Wife]

Well, that's what has been the hardest part for me, is because the marriage I knew that I thought that I had was perfect.

[Husband]

You're a great husband. You've been an amazing father, an amazing provider. You have drive. You're everything that I want in a partner.

[Wife]

And that's why when I found out, it wasn't a question of do I stay or do I go, you know, if it came to light, then I

[Husband]

would have questioned whether or not I would have stayed with you and probably wouldn't have. But we've had so much good since that ended. This last year has been very challenging.

[Wife]

But you've still been the same husband

[Husband]

that you've always been. The person that I want to be with.

Yeah. I'm sorry for all of this. I wish I could turn it all around.

And what's hard for me also is that you wanted more affection. And I'm not the most affectionate person.

[Wife]

But if you just came to me

[Husband]

before you allowed something like that to happen, you could have worked on it. We could have worked on it. Like it's not something that needed to happen.

No, I totally agree.

And you still have a hard time asking for things, and I still have a hard time being as affectionate as

[Wife]

I would like to be.

[Husband]

Our lives are very busy and just always going through the motions with family. And put you last.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Which I shouldn't put that sentence first.

[Husband]

I shouldn't put him last.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Because your life have no less busy and you have plenty of affection for your kids.

[Husband]

Yes.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

There is no problem of time.

[Husband]

Right. I give them my time.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

There is no.

[Husband]

I think we give our kids too much time and not you and I enough time.

Yeah.

I think we do everything for everybody. And you and I always come last. Literally, we come last.

Yep.

We do a lot for a lot of people with helping them, giving our kids everything that they want, they need. And then the day comes to an end and you and I don't even have enough time to enjoy ourselves. I mean, we meal prep for our dog. We do, but we don't take care of us.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

If you could talk to how you want it to be different, what would it look like? What would it be?

[Husband]

It would be giving ourselves time when we want it. Whatever it is, just you and I go for a walk with the dog. We say we're going to do It. But then we're like, oh, well, you know, the kids or this or that. We have a hard time, I think, just putting our foot down for ourselves.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Both of you?

[Wife]

Yeah.

[Husband]

Oh, yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

And so what stands in the way? What makes it so hard?

[Husband]

Because we love our damn kids so much. I think it's also because we're tired. We're exhausted from long days of work. And I think you just take the defeat and you're toast.

[Wife]

What were you gonna say as far as. When it comes to, like, the kids and putting them first, I feel guilty

[Husband]

if I don't, because I never had that as a kid.

[Wife]

Growing up, my parents didn't put me first in the way we do with our kids, and I don't wanna take that away from them. So I just always put them first. But I always put everybody else first. That's just my personality,

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

you know?

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

On the long list of what children need, parents who pay attention to each other should feature high up.

[Husband]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Because these days, the survival of the family depends on the happiness of the couple.

[Husband]

Yes, I believe that.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

So if you want your kids to have all what you want them to have, you actually need to give more to you. But if you feel that for every time you turn to him, you're abandoning them, then it will be problematic. It won't matter if it's a hug to him, eyes to him. We're not even talking about a vacation or a night away. We're talking about attention from the woman to the man. That is different than from the mother to the family.

[Narrator/Host (Esther Perel)]

Right.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

So he said, I didn't get any of this, and I made a mission for myself. And that mission is going to make me super mom and shocked when he says, I love this.

[Husband]

And I don't even think it's really the time away. I think it's even just the small little things for you and I to do together.

Yeah.

Would be great.

[Wife]

We don't prioritize our relationship.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

I don't prioritize.

[Wife]

But he doesn't either. Like, we.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

I know that, but he just asked. This was actually a big one. This is an ask. This is how we look at each other while we are in the kitchen together. And if you say, help me understand what happened there. This is a piece of. It just is.

[Husband]

Yeah. No, I agree.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

That doesn't make it right. By no means. But it is at the core of what this, I think, was.

[Husband]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

And sometimes affairs happen just because people are not paying attention to each other.

[Wife]

Yes.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

For everything that doesn't involve your children, you Basically say, I don't want them to miss anything. As if they're missing something.

[Wife]

Yeah, we say that a lot, you

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

know, as if they're missing something. But the two of you are kind of underfed.

[Husband]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Overstructured and underfed. And part of what will help you deal with the past is to change what's happening now.

[Wife]

Yeah.

And I've never actually thought of it that way. That it's true. Like, our marriage is stronger because we're stronger, but we are still repeating the same things that basically got us there in the first place.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

What is amazing about affairs is the energy. Nothing stops anybody. People are never too busy, nor too tired, nor too stressed.

[Husband]

Right.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Suddenly they have energy galore. Before they get to work, they stop somewhere. If people could put some of that very energy that is living totally in parallel with the rest of their life and bring some of that into their marriages, marriages would be doing really well. The zest, the fervor, the imagination, the playfulness, the curiosity, the intensity, you name it. So when I hear people tell me that they're too busy after hundreds of days, it's like, bullshit. Thank you.

[Husband]

It is.

[Wife]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

I just, like, Seriously. So the stakes are high. For every time you think I need to figure out what happened back then, it's. I need to figure out what's not happening now. Yeah.

[Husband]

And I don't do that.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

No.

[Husband]

So I think we do something tonight where we put in our calendar when we get back home and we make that happen.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

And you can do a thing that's one minute a day and five minutes and this. But it's about a deliberate attention. If you enjoy touch, you go hug her from the back in.

[Husband]

I do.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

And if she pushes a little bit

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

because she's in the middle of something, push back. Yes.

[Husband]

Yeah, I do do that.

Just.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

You say, of course you do that. Yeah, of course you do that. Because the mother that you want to be will not let the woman breathe.

[Husband]

Yeah, that's very accurate.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

There is that thing, that slight lifting of the shoulder, stiffening of the neck that just says, not a good time, not a good time. I'm busy, I'm somewhere else. And this is where you say, come and come here. We have something important to do. I have yet to meet a couple that will regret having hugged. I only meet couples who regret never hugging.

[Husband]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Or holding or looking at each other for a second or smiling to each other. And we're not talking sex yet. We're just talking physicality, playfulness, surprise. Stuff that makes people alive. You can Be not dead. But that's not the same as alive.

[Husband]

So we need to demand more out of each other.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Beautiful.

[Husband]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Yes.

[Husband]

Even if it's two seconds, even if it's just the hug, just to say how our day was, not our kids. Like, let's just leave them to the side and just give each other a conversation.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

I guess you actually wouldn't be leaving them to the side. You would be teaching them something so important. Yeah, because as you just described, we learn love in part from what we see at home. You would not be any less busy with them. You just won't be catering to them. You actually will be showing them a cycle of reciprocity between two people. Yeah, but it's going to come from you. Meaning it's the opposite of what you've done for the last 10 years. How much can I occupy the least space possible? This is going to be the opposite, but it's going to be in the service of the relationship and in the service of your feeling valued, which is for sure one of the things that gets broken when you find out that your partner had an affair 10 years ago.

[Husband]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Do I matter? Show her you. She matters.

[Wife]

Part of my problem, though, is that I still have a lot of anger for what he did. So that's sometimes why I just kind of retract because it's just changed things

[Husband]

for me so much.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

But you always did.

[Husband]

Did I?

A little bit. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's not always, but a lot of the times I think about it just.

[Wife]

I don't want to, because.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Yeah. And then you can tell him. Yeah, right now you're on the shit list.

[Husband]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Sometimes I want nothing to do, but it's okay. But make it obvious.

[Husband]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Your anger has its place. Tell him.

[Husband]

Yeah. And I usually don't.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

And if she gets pissed, you can also say, I'm doing everything I can to repair this, and I have, and I need you to do it with me. Because fundamentally, we've decided to be together and stay together. Let's bring this back to life.

[Husband]

And we love each other.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Okay.

[Wife]

Yeah, I keep a lot of that in. I feel like we don't really talk about what happened. Certainly he doesn't bring it up, especially now that some time has gone by. And I hold a lot of resentment because I feel like I'm just on a boat in the middle of the ocean by myself, holding all these feelings of betrayal and anger and confusion.

[Husband]

And I struggle every day with what

[Wife]

you did and how you did it and how you live with Yourself. Because there was a good period of time, a good chunk of time when it was exposed that I still didn't know. And it's so hard for me to

[Husband]

understand, like, how you lived with yourself for those five, six months, knowing that

[Wife]

it was out there and that I probably would, at that point, find out.

[Husband]

And you were just waiting for me to be the one to ask.

Yeah. It felt horrible. I mean, it was miserable to hold in. It's terrible to hold in. It's not knowing what that is gonna be when it comes out and how you're gonna feel and what you're gonna do and your reaction and what other people are gonna think and everything and how I'm gonna get judged and all of it.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

You feel bad for her or bad for you?

[Husband]

I feel terrible for her that she's had to make this part of her life. I think it's not what anybody should have to go through, but what she

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

wants to know is, how come you never thought of being the one to break the silence with her?

[Husband]

I don't know. I think it was just more of a not wanting to hurt her. And obviously, I had already done that.

[Wife]

I think you didn't want to deal with the repercussions.

[Husband]

Oh, that too, obviously. Yeah.

Which makes me circle my mind back of how could you do what you

[Wife]

did knowing what the repercussions could be?

[Husband]

No idea.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

You still would say, I don't know,

[Husband]

to why I did it. Mm. Well, part of that affection thing, that she was just there all the time and I didn't have to ask for it, and she would give it, and

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

it's like drinking from a fire hose. Mm. Your mom dies, your dad quits, and you find someone who's always there.

[Husband]

Mm.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

That means a lot if you can let it sink in.

[Husband]

Mm.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

So you have to stop saying, I don't know why. That's one of these lines that is becoming very encrusted. How did it end? Do you know?

[Husband]

I don't 100% recall how it ended. I don't know. She was going through stuff. She was also, I believe, seeing, like, other people on top of all this. And then I think at that point was planning on leaving him and moving on.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

And how was that for you?

[Husband]

Okay. Done. I had no emotional connection with her. We ended it, and that was it.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

And while it was happening, did you sometimes think this should stop or this is.

[Husband]

Yeah. But she was very persistent person. Very, very persistent.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

The word she's persistent. What does it mean?

[Husband]

The persistence.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Yeah.

[Husband]

That she was just Always there and pushing and pushing and pushing for it.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

In what sense? That she had her hands on you and you didn't have to come over to, like, you know. It's a useful word, but it doesn't really say anything. Did she threaten you? Did she insist? Did she make it so that you didn't feel that you had options? Did she smother you? Did she fuck you 10 different ways that made it so irresistible? What is persistence?

[Husband]

She just was persistent. I don't know. Like, I'm trying to answer.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

You were in it.

[Wife]

I wasn't there.

[Husband]

I didn't say you were there. I'm saying that's what I know. And if I knew how I feel, felt, I'd have that answer.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

But you know what?

[Husband]

I don't know. I do. But I don't know why in my mind I kept letting her do that. Like I wasn't going to her. She was coming to me. So I don't know why I kept letting that happen. I'm not sure I have 100% reason. So I don't want to say something that maybe isn't correct, but it's not

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

like you're putting your feet on the fire here. I'm exploring it with you.

[Husband]

I'm sure there was a lot of things going through my head and I don't recollect all of that. I don't.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

What does it mean that he doesn't know? Is it that he forgot? Is it that it remained vague? Is it that he was so in the swing of things that he didn't have to really ask himself much? Or is it also that people who

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

grow up very alone and who learn

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

not to have needs also learn not to have vocabulary that allows them to know what they feel? What they know is that there was

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

something very powerful happening to them.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

What it represented, why it was so irresistible, where it layered itself onto early childhood needs. They don't make all of these connections. And when he talks about what he needs and what he feels, it is in the physical language. It is in a very early language, a language that is before we speak with words. That is where his emotional truth takes place. So I can push, I can challenge, I can question, but it doesn't get translated into a vocabulary of emotions? We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about, so stay with us.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

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[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

feel like a punishment.

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[Narrator/Host (Esther Perel)]

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Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Skylight. The Skylight Calendar is an all in one digital smart calendar that syncs seamlessly with Google Calendar, Apple Calendar, Outlook and more. You can manage events, chores and grocery lists while assigning colors for each of the your family members. Jesse, my producer, has used a Skylight frame.

[Narrator/Host (Esther Perel)]

With the circus that I run at home, I absolutely need some way of trying to organize the madness. I like the kids to have, you know, colors so that they know what their thing is that day when their soccer is or what have you. And then my husband can quickly pull it up and say, you know, I have to be here at this time to pick up at this place. Because when you have three kids you are basically just an Uber service.

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[Wife]

And I've mostly accepted that I'm just never going to get those answers. But it definitely makes it harder to try to close that chapter and focus on now because I just keep going back to then.

[Sponsor/Advertisement Voice]

That is possibly true, but maybe not.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

The idea that if I have the answers to these questions it will help me put it to sleep. It could be the opposite. Yeah. What you know is that you've lived 10 more years that were very real as well. The question we often have is, is the 10 years defined by the secret or by what happened?

[Wife]

That's what I question.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

There is nobody who can give you a definitive on this one. Yeah, the little bit I gather. I think that what you lived together is real. And he had a secret. Sometimes I think the conversation is less about the affair than about the secret. Around the affair.

[Husband]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Secret is a lot longer. And how much did that secret have an effect on you? What it's like for him to spend 10 years organized around a secret that kind of lives in the middle of this relationship? Maybe not all the time, maybe not at all. But it's a useful question. It's like you, me and your secret have had a relationship here as well.

[Husband]

Yes. And I've asked him that because that

[Wife]

makes me question like he's always been wonderful for these 10 years. Was that because he just grew into that person or was some of that driven by guilt and he was trying to make up for Makes me question those 10 years, were they true?

[Husband]

And I haven't gotten an answer about

it that what's the question?

Did you think about it for the last 10 years? Did it.

Did it affect me? Yes, 100%. Every day keeping something like that is miserable. It's horrible. It's not what I would want anybody to go through on top of you going through what you're going through. But to hold something like that is shit. It sucks. It's taxing on your life because you don't know how you, how you can deal with yourself. And then you just think all your life like who else will find out? Who else will judge you? How they gonna perceive you for what you did? And it's all the time. I still have that. I still have that every single day. That never leaves.

Honestly, I didn't think you thought about it unless I brought it up.

No, it's. It's never gonna go away. It'll never go away. You wish you could rewrite the storybook.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Yeah.

[Husband]

You can't. The only thing you can do is just move forward and be who you really want to be with. The person you want to be with, which you have. I just wish you had a better book to write. You really do.

[Narrator/Host (Esther Perel)]

I really do.

[Husband]

I mean, what you did doesn't define your whole life. It's just a part of our story that I never wanted either. I know, but it's not the whole story. And I've accepted that very early on. But I just didn't know where you were or even if you thought about it.

I'm here.

I know you're here. But that's because, like you said in the beginning, you were here because me. And I wouldn't be here if you

[Wife]

weren't the person now that I love so much.

[Husband]

I love you, too.

I hate that version of you.

[Narrator/Host (Esther Perel)]

Me, too.

[Husband]

But you've been a wonderful person a lot longer than when you were a bad person.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

Did you get some answers?

[Husband]

I did, yeah. I actually feel a lot better. Something as simple as just knowing that he thinks about it and I'm not alone with the awful emotions and thoughts every day. That means a lot. So that's not something he's ever said to me.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

I don't tell her that I think about this because I don't think that my thinking matters because only hers is important. But then she's left thinking that she's the only one who cares. Every time you think that by doing less, asking less, saying less is worse. Yes.

[Husband]

Yeah, absolutely. I judge myself all the time about this, right? Every day.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

It would help her a lot. And you, by the way. But if you really think, what can I do to help her? This will. Can I ask you something? Do you feel like you deserve the life, the marriage, the family, the wife?

[Husband]

I think some days they deserve better. My kids deserve better.

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

So when she says you're not defined by this one action, you say, no, I am.

[Husband]

I think I have a long way to go still. But it's also the future. As your kids get older, I think about what if they do find out what's going to happen?

[Esther Perel (Therapist)]

What's going to happen is you're going to tell them your dad fucked up, and he was blessed to have the opportunity to repair. He had an amazing partner wife who said there is more to you than this and it was a big mistake, but it probably motivated you to become a lot more conscientious and that life is filled of broken pieces that we put back together and that it made you value what you have even more to talk about. What is rupture and what is repair and what is remorse and what is guilt and what is acknowledgement and what is betrayal and what is love and how the two of you were able to take this wound and it became a scar. That'll be an amazing lesson.

[Narrator/Host (Esther Perel)]

Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsome, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julia Nat. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider and the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.

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[Husband]

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