Am I Letting My Jealousy Ruin This?

Summary

Episode Summary: "Am I Letting My Jealousy Ruin This?"

Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel
Date: March 9, 2026

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OVERVIEW

In this emotionally rich episode, Esther Perel sits down with a 41-year-old caller who is grappling with the complexities of an ethically non-monogamous relationship. Despite enjoying the most intimate connection and best sex of her life, the caller finds herself tormented by jealousy and self-doubt. The conversation unfolds through explorations of family history, attachment wounds, and the meaning of specialness versus exclusivity in love. Esther guides the caller towards a deeper understanding of the origins of her jealousy and helps her reframe her experience in an empowering and self-compassionate way.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Relationship Setup & Initial Struggles

• The caller is dating a married man whose wife is aware and accepting of the relationship. The married couple maintain a non-sexual partnership, co-parent their child, but the caller is plagued by jealousy—especially around her partner's family intimacy.
• She struggles with the dichotomy of loving the emotional and sexual connection while also craving stability and feeling excluded.

Notable Quote:

"I also have been stuck in these endless questions...because there's a big part of me that does love being single...and yet I crave that idea of stability in marriage again." (Caller, 01:50)

Timestamps:

• [00:01] – Introduction of relationship dynamics and feelings
• [03:38] – Caller reflects on how she never expected to be in such a relationship

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2. Defining Jealousy: Family, Exclusion, and Loss

• Jealousy is not about sexual exclusivity, but about feeling excluded from the “inner circle” of her partner’s family.
• Esther helps distinguish between jealousy of a lost family unit and envy of what she never had.
• The caller recognizes that her pain is less about her partner’s wife and more about her longing for her own sense of family.

Notable Quote:

"When I see the beauty of his family, it reminds me of the family that I no longer have." (Esther Perel, 06:31)

Timestamps:

• [05:24] – Discussion of what triggers her jealousy
• [06:31] – Realization about mourning her own family

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3. The Roots: Attachment, Childhood, and Family Narrative

• The caller shares a traumatic history with her father, who was emotionally abusive, manipulative, and ultimately abandoned the family.
• Her need for approval and formative experiences are linked to her current sense of self-worth and relationship anxiety.

Notable Quote:

"I spent my whole life trying to get his approval...I learned about attachment theory for the first time a couple years ago...it's here." (Caller, 10:46)

Timestamps:

• [10:11] – Caller describes estrangement from her father and attachment discoveries
• [12:12] – Discussion of emotional intimacy and the meaning of the word "lover"

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4. How Jealousy Speaks: Internal Dialogue and Sabotage

• Esther invites the caller to externalize her jealousy by giving it an object—a Lego lucky cat—to represent and converse with.
• The caller realizes jealousy tells her she will "never be someone's number one," echoing her father's hurtful words.

Notable Quotes:

"It's very mean. It tells me that I am number two and that I'll never be someone's number one and that I should get out while I'm ahead." (Caller, 26:07)
"With your dad, interestingly, you were number one...your experience with number one hasn't been particularly good." (Esther Perel, 29:27)

Timestamps:

• [23:11] – Esther invites caller to externalize jealousy
• [26:07] – Caller voices what jealousy tells her
• [27:38] – Link to childhood messages of worthlessness

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5. Exclusivity vs. Specialness

• Esther reframes the notion of being “number one” (exclusivity) versus being “special” (individual significance).
• Explores how cultural narratives and personal history can confuse these concepts and cause emotional pain.

Notable Quote:

"There's another way of thinking about relationships that involves specialness—not exclusiveness, but specialness. And in that one, you're never the only one necessarily, but whatever you are is special in its own way." (Esther Perel, 31:53)

Timestamps:

• [28:55] – Esther’s ‘wicked thought’ about exclusivity, specialness, and family dynamics

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6. Social Pressure and Decisional Anxiety

• The caller discusses pressure from friends—some warn her to run from a “side gig” role, others (who have themselves opened their marriages) suddenly celebrate her arrangement.
• Esther distinguishes the urge for decision-making as coming from within versus imposed by others.

Notable Quote:

"Do you feel like you need to make a decision, or do you feel that other people are urging you to make a decision?" (Esther Perel, 35:37)

Timestamps:

• [35:37] – Urgency around the decision to stay or go
• [38:15] – Friends’ shifting perspectives on non-monogamy

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7. Patterns, Power, and The Triangular Dynamic

• Deep dive into the repetition of old patterns: seeking approval, competing with women, striving to be "number one," and conflating seductive power with self-worth.
• Esther notes how the caller internalized her father's critical voice, while simultaneously disidentifying with her mother's perceived weakness.

Notable Quotes:

"To be a number one, you need to compete against somebody. ... They need to be women that are more powerful so that they keep pushing you to do more, more, more. And they need to be women who are weaker..." (Esther Perel, 49:45)

Timestamps:

• [47:23] – Caller on femininity, approval, and competing
• [49:26] – Internalizing family dynamics

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8. Choice, Agency, and Redefining the Narrative

• Esther encourages shifting from a "default" to a "designed" approach to relationships—moving from victimhood or automatic patterning to a responsible, creative stance.
• The caller connects her adventurous, ambitious younger self to the possibility of embracing a non-traditional relationship on her own terms, not as a reaction to insecurity.

Notable Quotes:

"Switch, if you can, from the default position to the design position...what actually is the life that I would like to live responsibly, creatively and responsibly." (Esther Perel, 51:19)
"There’s a couple of stories happening here…that puts me in this position of feeling like I can talk back to it. I’m in conversation with a narrative..." (Caller, 54:44)

Timestamps:

• [51:04] – Discussion of possibility (design) instead of default (victim)
• [52:11] – Caller reflects on her adventurous side

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9. Closing Ritual: The Objectification of Jealousy

• Esther guides the caller in placing her “lucky cat” (symbol of jealousy) on the mantle, representing a conscious, externalized space for her feelings—ready for mindful engagement, not repression or overwhelm.

Notable Quote:

"So it will be there in the middle of the mantle, ready for any conversation. So will our conversation, which is now wrapped around this, what you call it, my lucky cat." (Esther Perel, 56:03)

Timestamps:

• [55:22] – Ritual for placing jealousy
• [56:47] – New symbolism and closing reflections

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On Self-Compassion and Practice:
  "Don’t ask me to practice self-compassion, okay? It's powerful. Feels…in my body, you know?" (Caller, 27:45)
• On Relationship Norms:
  "Marriage is really hard too, you know, and you got to get out of what. What is being reinforced that indeed, you're a side gig." (Esther Perel, 34:09)
• On Messiness in Love:
  "Can you take it if I am messy?...Like angry, like showing emotions that men don’t want to hear." (Caller, 39:40)

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Final Insights

• Jealousy often masks deeper losses, insecurities, or old family wounds.
• There is agency in choosing relational design that fits, rather than automatically seeking exclusivity as proof of worth.
• By externalizing, naming, and ritually honoring emotions like jealousy, it’s possible to shift from being driven by them to being in conscious relationship with them.
• The courage lies not in having all the answers, but in being willing to sit with complexity and rewrite one’s own narrative.

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For listeners contemplating non-traditional relational dynamics—or anyone who wrestles with jealousy and self-worth—this is a rich, relatable exploration grounded in both insight and compassion.

Transcript

[Caller]

Hi stair, I'm 41 years old and I'm calling with a personally heart wrenching case of should I stay or should I go? In regard to a man I've been seeing for almost two years. He and I met on a sort of casual dating app and went into it very casually. I learned that he is married and that he and his wife were are no longer sexual or romantic in that way, but they are living together, share a bed, they co parent an 8 year old boy just like I do with my ex husband with whom I do not share a bed and she is very open and encouraging of all of this and never in 1 million years would I have seen myself making my way into this kind of a dynamic. But this gentleman and I have very strong feelings for each other and he and I go on dates every week to two weeks and they're absolutely incredible from our chemistry as friends and humans. Not to mention that I'm having the best sex of my life like full stop. And he is emotionally secure and available to me in a way that I've frankly never had in 41 years. I also have been stuck in these endless questions all the time because there's a big part of me that does love being single. Like when I first got divorced. I'll never forget that feeling of I can do what I want, I can be who I want to be and yet I crave that idea of stability in marriage again. And it's this constant push and pull and I don't even know if I would want to be married to him. And yet it does not prevent some real pain, some real pain that I feel around feeling like just jealous, you know, of he and his wife or partner who is lovely. I would just so so appreciate and love the chance to talk through this with you. So thank you so much for listening.

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[Caller (main speaker)]

I think what's very strange to Me about all of this that I mentioned is that I would never have imagined myself getting sort of entangled in something like this. I've always, when I've been on the apps and seen these ethically non monogamous people, you know, like, I always don't swipe on those people because it seems complicated and something I don't want to get caught up in. And he did not list himself that way, but he was very honest when we met and they're not sexual. Right. So he's sexually monogamous with me. And that has been how my brain has been able to sort of make this work.

[Esther Perel]

Right, meaning how. Tell me how you put the puzzle together.

[Caller (main speaker)]

So I feel like there's something special that we have together. And I realized that that could very much be the case with or without him having sex with other people. But it protects some element of it for me where I feel like he is committed to me, you know, and sometimes I think it's so silly because he's also married and he's sleeping in the same bed with his wife, but they are not sexual.

[Esther Perel]

So he has family monogamy with her and sexual monogamy with you. Yes, yes.

[Caller (main speaker)]

And it's tied up in a lot. It's tied up in like, I think jealous. There's a. Just a raw jealousy that I think a lot of people in these relationships with multiple parties happens to them. But then there's also this.

[Esther Perel]

But your jealousy is about the monogamy of his family, that they come first. That you cannot enter into that space. That tell me a little bit what the arrangement is so far and what is the jealousy? Because it can be about something very precise. Right.

[Caller (main speaker)]

So I very much relate to his family coming first. So I also have an 8 year old and divorced. And it's funny because the last person I dated didn't have children and he totally did not understand like my kid comes above all else. So that I very much relate to. I get jealous thinking of them sleeping in the same bed, he and his wife.

[Esther Perel]

So that's.

[Caller (main speaker)]

Yeah. And also their general family life because I don't have it. And it's not that I don't have it with him, but it's that I don't have it, you know? So. Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

So when I see the beauty of his family, it reminds me of the family that I no longer have.

[Caller (main speaker)]

Yeah. Sorry.

[Esther Perel]

No, nothing to apologize for.

[Caller (main speaker)]

That part is very raw for me. And this whole side that is there and gets tied up in what is really a beautiful thing in many Ways.

[Esther Perel]

What is your arrangement with the father of your child?

[Caller (main speaker)]

We are good friends, actually. We were friends for many years and then we got married, had a child and very quickly had our first fight. That became the reason we got divorced,

[Esther Perel]

which was you made that one fight stand out so special that I couldn't resist being curious about

[Caller (main speaker)]

was over sleep training with our son. And it was something very small. But I realized I had never sort of stood ground and had been contorting myself honestly to prevent any and all conflict in our relationship. You know, there had never been conflict and I sort of just stood my ground and there was a complete unraveling and he wanted a divorce and it was so crazy. But we both instantly flipped into we're putting our son first. And thankfully my ex husband had the context of his parents having divorced when he was young and did a really good job of putting him first. It's very fluid, like our son has never known anything different and I'm very proud of that. But it's also another one of these things where I do like spending Christmas with my son and his dad. And sometimes when I play out this idea, well, what if I were with somebody full time monogamous? Again, that would be hard, right? I mean some people might not like that.

[Esther Perel]

Would it be fair to say when I am with the father of my child and my son and we are in family mode, there is no jealousy when I'm alone, then I start to think about the family that my partner has and then I start to think that is what I miss. Because in fact you do have a family life.

[Caller (main speaker)]

I don't feel that because there is some suppressed like emotional pain around my divorce that I just don't surface. And yeah, I, I feel like it's other people's intimacy is just hard for me because I'm not intimate with anybody. So. I'm sorry.

[Esther Perel]

The tears just let them flow, let them flow, let them stream down. I'm not intimate with anybody.

[Caller (main speaker)]

Yeah, yeah. I have a very small like extended family where my dad, I'm estranged from my dad, which was a complicated situation. He was emotionally abusive to our family. My sister and I growing up and have a good relationship with my mom, but it has its limits.

[Esther Perel]

Both daughters are estranged from him for how long?

[Caller (main speaker)]

Eight years. Right before my son was born, right after I got married. That was a pretty crazy year. But he, he basically blew up our lives. He and my mom had been married for 40 years and he came home one day and said, I want a divorce. And he emptied out their bank Accounts and left her with nothing. We found out he'd been doing all these horrible things, leading a double life, basically. And in hindsight, I think he was really kind of a sociopath. I don't think he had empathy. And I spent my whole life trying to get his approval. You know, it was very much the perfect type, a child. And my sister was the older, rebellious one who he treated worse, you know, but he played us off each other. It was just a really tough childhood. I mean, not as tough as a lot of people's, but unpacking it as an adult, it was very eye opening to me. I learned, like, I learned about attachment theory for the first time a couple years ago. And I was like, no, I thought I was over all that. It's here.

[Esther Perel]

If you're what you call him. Partner, boyfriend, Lover.

[Caller (main speaker)]

Lover. We call each other lovers.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. If your lover heard you say, I am not intimate with anyone, how would he respond?

[Caller (main speaker)]

He would probably put his hand on his heart and it would make him sad, because you're right, I am intimate with him. He's the only person that I really

[Esther Perel]

am intimate with beyond sexuality.

[Producer/Host]

Yeah.

[Caller (main speaker)]

He's the first man that I've ever had difficult feelings around that has been able to sustain it where it hasn't blown up because I had a meltdown or challenged something that was going on or made things difficult.

[Esther Perel]

For example.

[Caller (main speaker)]

Well, this situation has been very hard for me, like grappling with these feelings of jealousy with his wife. And I feel like I will have these sort of outbursts, you know, and I don't necessarily get angry, but I. I do unravel. And I'm like, I can't handle this. And sometimes I do contort it into something like, you don't even want me anyway, and, you know, just blow up. And I assume that it's gone and he's gone, because that's how it's gone in my relationships. And I'm very conscious of that with the men in my life. And he just keeps coming back for more. Like a golden retriever. He's just there, you know, and he's like, that must be so hard. And so it makes it, like, in many ways, so wonderful. Right. I feel like it's so good for me to be with somebody that

[Esther Perel]

allows me to experience jealousy, even envy, because one is for what we had and have lost, and the other one is for what we've never had. Or not never, but what we don't have. But also experience the insecurity that it's not what you Have. It's how it instantly connects to what I feel I don't have. And so because I don't have one thing, I experience it as well. Then I better have nothing. Because if I can turn it into I'll be the one to set this up to end, then at least I feel a little bit more in control. I don't feel in control over the relationship as it is, but I can be in control over the dissolution of the relationship. And he doesn't let you play with that.

[Caller (main speaker)]

No.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. And you have fixated on they share a bed. They share a bed. They share a bed. And that becomes that image that you interpret as they have intimacy. They have something I don't have. You can see how you put the pieces of your puzzle together. Talk to me about what is their arrangement and who are you for them. You're telling me who he is for you? I don't know much about her. I don't know if your children have ever met. I don't know if this is a marriage also, not just a famer, a coming together, more accurately of two people or of two units. What is the arrangement? What is your relational arrangement at this point? And is it by default or is it actually by design?

[Caller (main speaker)]

So there was no crossing for quite a while. You know, we met quite casually through this app and I don't think either of us was expecting the level of connection that we developed.

[Esther Perel]

And he presented himself as.

[Caller (main speaker)]

As married and described a situation that is he and his wife are wonderful partners and very good friends. They lost the sexual spark at some point and decided to stay together and co parent and raise their child in their home.

[Esther Perel]

And both of them have a separate erotic life.

[Caller (main speaker)]

She didn't for some time it sounded like, but now she does. And I had not met her for a long time and eventually she said she wanted to meet me. And so we had coffee together.

[Esther Perel]

Old me or old too?

[Caller (main speaker)]

Just me and her. And I was like, if this is not progress against my anxious attachment style, I don't know what is. I had this whole idea of her in my mind. You know, I've done this whole. The ways that she's different than me. She's like the perfect homemaker and I'm not. And you know all this stuff. And instantly was just disarmed by her. She's also totally warm and genuine and cool. And I could see that everything was very honestly, she was like, this is so great. Like, he's in such a great mood all the time. He is crazy about you. We're so happy to have you in our lives. I went to their holiday party like a month or two ago, which was hard, but also one this other weird part of me is like, what if, like I. I was just a part of this fabric? Like maybe this. I mean, do I have this in me to be one of these crazy people that I shouldn't say crazy people, like securely attached people that can flex in relationships. And she was so happy to have me there, you know, So I don't, you know, he doesn't talk about their relationship. I think he's very, you know, protective of that and I appreciate that. And I don't know what the future holds in store for them, but it's like the jealousy, the raw jealousy and insecurity it brings out is so present.

[Esther Perel]

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[Caller (main speaker)]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Esther Perel]

May I meet the part of you that speaks that insecurity? How does it relate to you? How does it tell its story? How does it warn you? How does it turn opportunity into threat? Tell me what it says and what it is trying supposedly to preempt for you. Imagine it's sitting right next to you, so it's not inside of you. It's actually on the chair next to you. Jealousy. I don't know. Do you have a name for it? Sometimes.

[Caller (main speaker)]

I don't have a name for it. The jealousy is so hard to pinpoint.

[Esther Perel]

Okay, so you enter into me

[Caller (main speaker)]

and I feel under threat. I am in, like, fight or flight.

[Esther Perel]

All right, hold on one moment because you're still talking to me. Turn around and pick something, any object that you can place to represent jealousy. Just look on your shelves and then just bring it toward you.

[Caller (main speaker)]

Like, physically bring it.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah, yeah, go get it.

[Caller (main speaker)]

All right.

[Esther Perel]

Can you show me? Okay.

[Caller (main speaker)]

I chose my Lego lucky cat.

[Esther Perel]

All right. And the reason you represent my jealousy is because anything. Any connection.

[Caller (main speaker)]

No, it just felt like it just was drawn to it for some reason. All right, we're gonna make it lucky.

[Esther Perel]

Okay.

[Caller (main speaker)]

Maybe it'll be memorable that way. I thought so. Like, if I need A mental talisman.

[Esther Perel]

All right, you don't have to look at me, but I want you to talk to. Actually, it's less you talking to the jealousy first. It's about listening how the jealousy speaks to you, how it fills you, what it does, what it tries to preempt for you, what threats. It predicts. What?

[Caller]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

Oh, you know that part so well,

[Caller (main speaker)]

I'm thinking about it right now, and if I'm talking to my jealousy right now, it's.

[Esther Perel]

Or your jealousy's talking to you.

[Caller (main speaker)]

The jealousy talks to me.

[Producer/Host]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

What does it say?

[Caller (main speaker)]

It's very mean. It's very mean. It tells me that I am number two and that I'll never be someone's number one and that I should get out while I'm ahead. But it also tells me that that's, like, very powerful. That's what I deserve. And that is heartbreaking to me, you know?

[Esther Perel]

Deserve, as in you're not good enough to be. It starts to attack and erode your sense of self worth.

[Caller (main speaker)]

Yes. And that is what I have been primed for, you know, like, that was my dad's uncanny ability to come in any moment. I started to feel good about myself and take me down. Which honestly comes up for me, Esther. Like, I think this negative self talk, this, like, when I'm being really mean to myself, I can almost hear him. And then I think, I don't want to let him win, you know, like, this is not serving me in any way.

[Esther Perel]

Who the hell do you think you are? That kind of berating.

[Caller (main speaker)]

For some reason that's standing out to me right now, this thing he's said to me. One time when I was a teenager, he told me I was the last person anyone ever wanted to see walk into a room. And I sometimes feel like I just walk around feeling like that. And I am such a otherwise intelligent person that I can conceptually understand so much, you know? I mean, I. I probably would win an award for the number of hours of Pema Chodron talks I've listened to. But don't ask me to practice self compassion, okay? It's like I. It's powerful. It's like, feels. It's in my body, you know? And so then you go, like, am I fighting something that I am never gonna beat? Or am I making it too hard for myself by trying to do this work?

[Esther Perel]

So, you know, I had a wicked thought. May I just share it with you? Because everything is kind of. Are you still holding it in your hand? Jealousy. Good. Keep holding it. You see, in a Model of plural love, primary or secondary, doesn't necessarily carry the same meaning. Primary worth more, secondary worth less. It's not a rating system, it's an organizational, structural idea. With your dad, interestingly, you were number one. In fact, your sister was number one on the attack line. Your experience with number one hasn't been particularly good. You were his number one, both of you. And he was firing away. You know, estrangement is a drastic, radical decision. Eight years, so we can't go into the details of that. But it doesn't happen out of nothing. So you have been number one. Your idea of this fairy tale, that the number one is an elevated state, is actually not what has been your life experience. There is a way of thinking about relationships that is organized around exclusiveness. And then you demarcate what makes this relationship by what it doesn't allow, but what it doesn't allow in it excludes the other stuff. And that's what defines it. And so then you are the only one. And then there's another way of thinking about relationships that involves specialness. Not exclusiveness, but specialness. And in that one, you're never the only one necessarily. But whatever you are is special in its own way. So you go to this party and these people receive you. You may not like the arrangement. You may say, I don't like complicated setups or multiple setups. That's design. And then you say, that's not for me. But then it doesn't come from a place of self loading, of being in this relationship is proof that I will not be claimed, that nobody will choose me as their first, as their one and only. And that it is because I'm the last person people want to see walk into the room. So there's a kind of a mixing of two stories here. One that was indeed exclusive but vicious, and one that is special, but somehow activates this notion that if I'm not the only one, if I'm not the primary one, it's not because we have something else that ties us together. It's because you don't want to do that with me.

[Caller (main speaker)]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Is that a fair description?

[Caller (main speaker)]

It really is. And it's a story that is not reflected really in the situation. You know, like I mentioned this in my message, that I don't even know if we would be right together as being married or. That's not what I even fantasize about, really. It's weird. I mean, he would be a wonderful partner and husband. Absolutely. But it's more just this ambiguous. Here's a Reason to feel bad about myself. But then there's so many great things about it, like, that I've mentioned to you from a emotional standpoint of things I've been able to work through, and then also just the joy of developing some intimacy with somebody that is also not laden with all of the rest of life. And it's funny, because I've tried to talk about this to some married friends. They'll be like, wow, that is. You got to get out of that. Like, run, don't walk. Like, you must be miserable half the time. And like, this is a recipe for disaster. And then I'm like, well, how is marriage going? Because marriage is really hard too, you

[Esther Perel]

know, and you got to get out of what. What is being reinforced that indeed, you're a side gig.

[Caller (main speaker)]

Mm. Yeah, I think that's how they frame it. And from the outside, I can kind of see that. But that's not how he makes me feel or frankly, how she makes me feel. His wife. I feel like they want to bring me into their fold, you know, and he makes me feel very special. He is the first man I've ever been with that is very comfortable. Just, like, openly complimenting me in this way that is so disarming to me. You know, we'll just be kissing or something, and I'll sit back and be like, you are so beautiful, and

[Pickle (Cat Chat)]

I

[Caller (main speaker)]

don't know what to do with it. And I realized I wasn't getting that before from other people. And,

[Esther Perel]

well, what you do with that is, first and foremost, you savor it. Yeah. Then you decide, how important is this? It's an important experience for me to have in a relationship. It doesn't define a decision.

[Caller (main speaker)]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. My question to you is, do you feel like you need to make a decision, or do you feel that other people are urging you to make a decision? Because you started out by saying, you know, shall I stay or shall I go? And I'm listening to you telling me I'm caught between two stories, two ways to interpret my reality. That's it. In one version, I experience myself as. Basically, I'm experimenting with a very different kind of relational arrangement. It is an ethically non monogamous or polyamorous arrangement. It's new. It does involve jealousy, by the way. That's okay. It is also part of the erotic charge that there is a sense of, where am I? Where do I fit in, etc. So the goal is not to avoid any jealousy. The goal is to learn to live with it. The other narrative is, I've been exclusive. I've actually been many times a number one. And my main experiences around that have been not particularly kind. Which doesn't mean that therefore an exclusive relationship is by itself compromised. But there are two narratives here. And my question to you is, do you feel an urgency to make a decision, or do you feel that the people around you are urging you to make a decision? Or that there is a sense that you're being naive, you're being credulous, you're going to get hurt. What's the context? Where's the Greek chorus here?

[Caller (main speaker)]

Yeah, it's almost like it's these. Like, you know, every once in a while I will have a pretty significant meltdown around this and think, I can't do this anymore. Like, these feelings are too hard. And what's really funny is that the small circle of people I've opened up to about this who were in monogamous relationships when I first went down this path were like, get out. And now multiple couples have opened up their marriages and suddenly they're like, go get it. You're living the dream. It's like. And so.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. But they don't know the nightmare. And the nightmare is that by putting myself in a situation where I experience the need to prove myself, the need to make myself be more wanted, the feeling that I am competing with another reality that is better than mine throws me right back into my relationship with my dad in which I hear all these etched inside my body sentences of every time I try to. What did you say? I win his love or be approved by him. It only made me feel worse about myself because the whole thing was predicated on it not being possible. He needed me to be one down.

[Caller (main speaker)]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

So I have a relationship now that evokes that for me.

[Producer/Host]

Piara.

[Caller (main speaker)]

They all do.

[Esther Perel]

They all do. Okay. So it doesn't even matter which boundary system you're living in or which identity system you're living in. This. At some point, the question of, am I worthy? Will I be replaced? Would you notice if I need you? Would you be there if I need you?

[Caller (main speaker)]

Can you take it if I am messy? You know, I use this example, like my ex boyfriend I dated for three years and I had. He never was with me when I didn't have shaved legs. I told somebody that recently and they were like, what? But I'm like, that is something I learned from my mother. And the way that my dad commented on our appearance, you know, my whole life to be. To keep it together, you know.

[Esther Perel]

So what does messy mean? Afraid.

[Producer/Host]

Afraid.

[Caller (main speaker)]

Like angry, like showing emotions that they don't want to hear, that men don't want to hear.

[Esther Perel]

And you get angry when you're afraid. The more you're afraid they would leave, the more you kick them out. And you think that when I'm afraid I'm going to scare them, they're gonna think I'm impossible to be with. Yeah, I'm thinking out loud. I need you to.

[Caller (main speaker)]

Yeah. That I, you know, get. If I get angry or, you know, I felt like this gentleman that I'd been seeing, I introduced him to a friend of mine and I thought that they were being sort of flirtatious with each other. And I am super tuned into that and it actually makes me mental. And I melted down about it, you know, and I thought this is the end because I don't get angry at men. Like, I don't. I've. It's very difficult for me to conjure that. And so when I melted down about that, I thought that's the end of that.

[Esther Perel]

That's the end of that. Meaning he's not going to want to be with somebody who flares up like this, who loses her shit. Yes. Who is so insecure, who sees the slightest thing and starts to turn it into a whole saga.

[Caller (main speaker)]

Yeah. And that night I was so elevated.

[Esther Perel]

Like, how bad does it get,

[Caller (main speaker)]

the jealousy thing, when I experience that?

[Esther Perel]

If I see flirtation, it's a green eyed monster.

[Caller (main speaker)]

It is a monster in, in real life, if I see it, if I see flirtation, it is a monster. And it's crazy. It feels like betrayal, it's threat, you know, and he was like, that was absolutely not my intent, but I'm so sorry.

[Esther Perel]

And what does it say to you at that moment when it sees the flirtation?

[Caller (main speaker)]

It says you should be angry at this guy because he is not prioritizing you.

[Caller]

And he

[Caller (main speaker)]

will, you know, fall at the first sign of female attention that he gets, you know, and then, and then what are you, you know, you're just like any other woman in the room to him. Also, like with it, it's like also fighting me. Like, why are you feel, why are you doing this? Like you're thinking so small. Like some women would find it hot that their man could flirt like this and that other women were attracted to him and they would have fun with it. So not only are you just like all these other women in the room, like you're worse because you can't roll with this and give him a fucking break because he's a nice person and it's not intentional, but it feels like he's stabbing me in the heart. Like it is so raw. It's so powerful.

[Esther Perel]

We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

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[Esther Perel]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Caller (main speaker)]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Caller (main speaker)]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Monday.com Advertiser]

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[Esther Perel]

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[Monday.com Advertiser]

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[Caller (main speaker)]

Yes way, no way.

[Monday.com Advertiser]

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[Esther Perel]

I'm grabbing my phone and switching to T Mobile right now.

[Monday.com Advertiser]

Get back Harvey. We're taking a let's go again y'.

[Pickle (Cat Chat)]

All.

[Jake Sullivan]

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[Producer/Host]

Visit t mobile.com ester is coming back to south by Southwest this year for a special live episode of Where Should We Begin. This year, Astaire will be joined by Academy Award winning filmmaker Spike Jones to explore what happens when the being that we feel knows us the best isn't a human being. The session will be open to all south by Southwest badge holders. Visit voxmedia.comsxsw to get a discount on an Innovation Badge and pre register for our live taping. You can also learn about all the other sessions on the Vox Media Podcast stage which will feature Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway, Brene Brown and Adam Grant, Marques Brownlee, Vivian Tu, and way more. Visit VoxMedia.com SXSW to learn more and I'll see you there.

[Esther Perel]

After decapitation strikes against Iran's leadership, what can we expect next in the escalating war? The big question is if there is going to be a next strongman in Iran, what kind of strongman will that person likely be? I don't think that there's going to be another powerful cleric Supreme Leader. I'm John Finer.

[Jake Sullivan]

And I'm Jake Sullivan and we're the hosts of the Long Game, a weekly national security podcast.

[Esther Perel]

This week we sit down with Kareem Sajapour to discuss what to expect in this next phase of the war against Iran.

[Jake Sullivan]

The episode's out now. Search for and follow the longing wherever you get your podcasts.

[Esther Perel]

And is there a connection between the rawness of feeling that bereft and enraged and how much you tried to shave your legs at home, how much you used femininity to call attention, how much you worked on appearance? And appearance. And appearance, as in pleasing dad? Yes. And emulating mom or doing the opposite.

[Caller (main speaker)]

I had my moments. It was weird because I also was like a huge feminist when I was younger, thanks to my sister, and had all these. I was very entrepreneurial and ambitious, which was not like my mom was more like my dad, who was an entrepreneur. But the need for approval and how I reacted to men in authority position, to me was like the constant. And I was very in tune with

[Esther Perel]

all the little how to please, how to seduce.

[Caller (main speaker)]

Yes. Yes.

[Esther Perel]

And so when you see the flirting on the other side, you are competing with her.

[Caller (main speaker)]

Yes, I'm competing with her.

[Esther Perel]

And her being the other woman. Yeah. And at home, did you look down to your mom? As in she has no strength, no power, no seductive cachet? I can do better. I belong to the group of the people who are on top. I identify with the men. I'm the entrepreneur too. I can best them at their own game.

[Caller (main speaker)]

That's an interesting thing. I. It was very complicated because we felt so bad for my mom because he preyed on her too, but we didn't

[Esther Perel]

want to be like her.

[Caller (main speaker)]

No. And he was always in my ear whispering that I was his favorite. Like was telling me that. And so the things he put down, I mean, she was a stay at home mom, so she was not going to go out and learn languages and get a full ride to college and, you know, do all.

[Esther Perel]

Which you did.

[Caller (main speaker)]

You know, that still was not enough shocker.

[Esther Perel]

Nothing really. That is. It's not meant to ever reach the criteria. But you feel bad for mom. You notice the weakness of mom, her despondency, but you suddenly also know, I don't want to be like Mom. I don't identify with mom, so I identify with him. And so I internalize his voices inside of me, the good and the bad. And you know, you've done enough in our work to know that this is a clusterfuck. Right. And a part of you then says, I'm gonna best him at his game. I'm gonna become the best seductress. That's where the number one comes in. I'm gonna be better than all those other women. Because to be a number one, you need to compete against somebody. You don't compete against the man. The woman is the pivot of this type of triangular dynamic. And they need to be women that are more powerful so that they keep pushing you to do more, more, more. And they need to be women who are weaker. This is the language of this kind of dynamic. It's actually very unnuanced, for that matter. There are so many other aspects to each person, but everybody becomes just either top or bottom.

[Caller (main speaker)]

Yes.

[Esther Perel]

Do you ever think, I could stay with my lover and maybe at some point also marry?

[Caller (main speaker)]

I do.

[Esther Perel]

In the creativity of multiple different kinds of relationship constellations. You know, it's not like this needs to end for something else to start. I don't know that that's what you want. But I want you to switch, if you can, from the default position to the design position, from the victimhood, from the I'm not chosen, from the I'm not worthy to the what actually is the life that I would like to live responsibly, creatively and responsibly.

[Caller (main speaker)]

I really liked what you were saying about the stories like that. There's a couple of stories happening here. And the story of embracing this path, this thing that I like about it is that it reminds me a lot of my younger self. And I have been a very adventurous, ambitious person.

[Esther Perel]

Are you still or it's talking about a different person.

[Caller (main speaker)]

I honestly am. It's very weird, okay, because I could be very brave, but emotionally, in like these interpersonal relationships, I feel like I've been very held back by these old demons.

[Esther Perel]

You know, the way I'm imagining on the very little that you've. That you've told me. You see, when you have a father, in your case, it's the father, okay, who praise philanders, lies, embezzles, etc. Etc. And you know, it's a bad behavior, but the status of this person still feels in some wicked way better than to be the victim of all of this 100%. As the daughter, you're in a bind. You care for mom, but you don't want to identify with Mom. Mom being woman, mom being feminine. But it's the woman. It's not just the mother, it's the woman. You don't want to be that kind of woman. And so being number one becomes this kind of default position that says, I'm not the reject. The second choice. That's the way the mind of that little girl often develops. This narrative is the only way to not be that weakling, rejected, humiliated, made fun of, cheated on, is to be like him in terms of his power. Maybe not in terms of his sociopathy, but certainly in terms of his father. He's the number one. He makes. He makes the decision. So it's an impossible bind. I don't want to be like him because he's not a very attractive person, and I don't want to be like her, but I want to be with the power that he has in order not to have to be like her. And what is the tool I can use to have his power in. Is the seductive tool.

[Producer/Host]

Yeah.

[Esther Perel]

What do you take with you from our conversation?

[Caller (main speaker)]

I hoped that I would get some different looks at this from the standpoint of the stories. Like, the story that is. I'm telling myself, that's being told to me that my jealousy is telling me, and I very much feel like I have gotten that. And that puts me in this position of feeling like I can talk back to it. I'm in conversation with a narrative about what's happening here.

[Esther Perel]

Where would you like to put this jealousy? The piece that represents it, where should it be put? In your house?

[Caller (main speaker)]

Burying it in the backyard is probably not the right answer. It either needs to get buried in the backyard or put in the middle of the mantle.

[Esther Perel]

Okay. All right. Would you. Would you. Is it. There's a. There's a sense which one feels more conducive.

[Caller (main speaker)]

The mantle.

[Esther Perel]

Yeah. All right, Go get up and go put it there, and then we'll say goodbye. Okay.

[Caller (main speaker)]

I'll be right back.

[Esther Perel]

Yep. All right. So it will be there in the middle of the mantle, ready for any conversation. So will our conversation, which is now wrapped around this, what you call it, my lucky cat. Your lucky cat. And turn to it when you need to talk or when you need to listen differently, but have it be outside of you.

[Caller (main speaker)]

It's so pretty powerful in the living room. It was always there, but now it

[Esther Perel]

has a different symbolism. If you want, you can have a little ritual with it on a daily basis or a weekly basis, and you come and, you know, you can reflect with it, but you want to sort out the stories. They're bleeding into each other, and they're making your life too confused.

[Caller (main speaker)]

Thank you so much for. This is such a. Such a joy.

[Esther Perel]

Thank you.

[Caller (main speaker)]

All right.

[Esther Perel]

And bye. Bye.

[Caller (main speaker)]

Bye.

[Producer/Host]

This was an estair calling, a one time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Estaire that could be answered in a 40 or 50 minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producerteraparel.com where should we Begin With Esther Perel Is produced by Magnificent Noise were part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and the Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller and Julian Att. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider and the executive producers of Where Should We Begin? Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.